was he right?

religion is for sheep

>>211392431 (OP)
I don't believe in God but that is retard logic.

Yes

>>211392439
Smartest goy

>>211392475
>>211392439
>>211392476
I hope a gang of niggers breaks in and steals your television

>>211392431 (OP)
Yes. Good people are too nice to become powerful.

>>211392490
*Pray

who knows

>>211392431 (OP)
>this is what atheists actually believe
KEK

>>211392490
What the FUCK was his problem bros

>WHAT DO YOU MEAN YOU EXPLICITLY TOLD ME NOT TO SIN AND NOW IM BEING OUNISHED DESPITE SINNING ANYWAYS?!?!??? THATS LIKE…LE UNFAIR !!!!!

>>211392568
Wait till you find out what the other side believes in

>>211392593
God is literally unfair. What are you even talking about?

>>211392431 (OP)
God is just a really, really, really big alien.

>>211392431 (OP)
No, that's just atheist sophistry. They think God is supposed to be a superhero, not a force. It's like complaining that mathematics isn't all good.
It's a total architectural mismatch because they don't know what the fuck they're talking about.

>>211392763
You cannot claim God is a moral all powerful force and then complain when people ask if he is all powerful and moral, why is there unnecessary suffering in this world.

>>211392763
Omnipotence is a hard paradox.

>>211392431 (OP)
>I am very smart. Smarter than God, even!

>>211392861
I mean everyone is smarter than something that doesn't exist.

>>211392781
You've been given free will, so, humans fuck shit up.
That's it. The world has evil in it because humans are given the ability to live outside of god's will.
The only way he could protect you from your own evil is by forcibly lobotomizing you, or taking your will away.
When you say "Why does God allow evil?" you may as well ask "Why doesn't God just directly mind control me constantly?"
As if God should have just created you as a hedonist permanently wired up to drugs or something.
As I said, it's a complete architectural incompatibility. You think God is supposed to be your fucking dad, giving you free money, wiping your ass, and jerking you off. You think that, because you're a hedonist and you can't look at the spiritual and moral world without filtering it through a materialist lens. You basically just want to be on heroin constantly. Lobotomized like some vegetable.

>>211392431 (OP)
If there is no God, then there is no such thing as good or evil, and we are all no more than cosmic space dust in the wind, owing our existence to nothing else than blind forces of chaos. What then does it really matter if I get a raw deal in life? Does a ball of dust deserve more? The fact that we have a consciousness of good and evil is known as the "moral argument" for God in philosophy, with God being the source of an objective moral standard (i.e., the Ten Commandments). Also, picrel is a spoiled rich narcissistic sociopath who thinks he has it bad in life. What a retard.

>>211392889
True, but I meant hypothetically.

>>211392431 (OP)
you just misunderstand what 'good' is. children getting cancer is good btw. mysterious ways.

>>211392961
Not talking about human suffering. I am talking about all forms of suffering. When a pack of lions descend on a zebra and slowly maul it to death for hours, there is huge amount of pain and suffering on the Zebra part. Totally unnecessary as there are no humans with free will around to be affected by this predatory behavior. You cannot convince me that that a perfect God exist and yet he created such a cruel world with so much suffering.

Any time a Christian tries to talk down to you, just point out this is what they believe in and laugh at how retarded they are. Their entire belief system is a fairy tale.

>>211392991
You jest but there has been plenty of debates where the person arguing for the existence of God was forced to take the position of children getting cancer is actually a good thing. As in they were not even joking and 100% serious.

>>211393073
like a year ago i was addicted to watching religious debates like that and it's just laughable the entire way through. those arguing for a god just always seem to be completely outmatched in IQ. i just don't understand how you can do it. there's so many fucking glaring fallacies in the bible and all it takes is acknowledging one of them for the whole house of cards to fall.

>>211393138
The funniest part about these God debates is if you paid attention to the actions of those who are on the side of God, their actions in 2025 is absolutely adhorent. Most of them (if not all) support the actions of the current USA administration which is absolutely antithetical to the bible which they supposed spend hours studying and defending. The absolutely fucking hypocrisy.

>>211392961
NTA. I get what you're saying.
I guess my question is, why didn't God make it so that we could have freewill but not suffer?
Doesn't being omnipotent mean anything is possible?
And if God can't do paradoxes, then do paradoxes have power over God?
I'd be alright with God just saying, "It is what it is," if The Bible wasn't all about love.

>it's an atheist has gone 5 seconds without sharing his opinion episode

>>211393413
That's not the real question. Here is the one that will stump them. Suffering exist as a result of free will, therefore implying that suffering would not exist if there was no free will.
Yet that is not true when we observe those that the bible claim has no free will. Animals have no free will. They aren't here on earth as test. There is no heaven waiting for animals. And yet they suffer all the same. Totally unnecessary suffering.
Why? Why must animals suffer? Could God not have made a world where animals don't suffer because animals don't have free will。

>>211393138

>>211393224
fuck off commie, god's not real

>>211393509
It's made up nonsense.

>>211393413
I think suffering is an inherent property of consciousness. Being able to compare two things means you can evaluate their differences with your intellect, and where there are differences, those difference can be qualitative.
If there are colors in the world, maybe your favorite color is red. That means you'll eventually be in a room that's blue, and it won't be ideal for you.
If there aren't any qualitative differences between things, then no "things" exist. Where "things" exist, some will be better or worse than others.

>>211393509
Those are obviously-false myths and fables too, godtard. The arguments tend to center around Christianity because that's far more common in most Western societies.

>>211393509
This but asking Christians what are they opinions on Donald Trump

>>211393509
>whoa you don't have opinions on this faith that you didn't grow up in and have no relation with? lmao checkmate atheists

>>211393547
Then why do animals suffer as well?

>Snyder hiding his philosophical treatises in superhero films
Is he the Homer of our times?

>>211393138
Nobody posts those debates in good faith.
They harass retarded boomer pastors with like 8 followers from Mississippi until they respond, and then they use cherry-picked examples of retards to apply to the whole religion.
You ever notice that in these types of videos they never, ever fucking dare going after actual Theologians with degrees? It's always some minister from the south with literally no qualifications.
TLDR; you base your spiritual worldview on propaganda, and then chortle about how other people are ignorant. Sad, ignorant, pathetic.

>>211393566
For the same reason we suffer, retard?
No offense, but isn't that common sense? I don't know why you think that's some kind of problematic aspect.

>>211393595
Alex O Connor debates theologians all the time and he still runs circles around them.

>>211393595
can you not pretend anyone has a seriously satisfying answer to the problem of evil
some retard trotted out free will earlier in the thread like that matters when a crow eats a baby's eyes out

this threads feels very euphoric

>>211393612
We suffer because we have free will and are put on earth as a test. Animals as stated in the bible don't have free will.

>theists still BTFO and have no response after 2000 years

>>211393621
I looked it up, and you may as well be telling me that TMZ has good interviews.
I'll concede that you proved me half wrong. I'll accept that he does run circles around theologians. I just think this is obviously some low-brow PewDiePie garbage, in addition to that. I don't think it's reasonable for you to sit there and say I'm supposed to take some David Hogg-looking zoomer faggot seriously.

>>211393652
I don't care what you think. I am just here to dismantle your obvious strawman with a good example. Have a good day.

>>211393556
maybe they should say all religions are fake then if they know jack shit about the rest.

>>211393547
I guess so, in a Derrida kind of way, but wouldn't that mean God is responsible for suffering?
I just don't see how God can exist without either having it within Him or having made it?

>>211393631
Uh, no.
I believe that you BELIEVE what you're saying is Christianity, I just think you believe in a strawman version concocted from the imaginations of fanfiction writers on reddit.
For example, imagine I keep saying something like "ATHEISTS BELIEVE HUMANS FUCKED MONKEYS, THAT'S WHAT EVOLUTION IS." over and over and over.
To the point where, an average Christian would actually walk up to an Atheist and, upset, declare "Why do you people fuck monkeys?!"
Do you see what I'm saying here?
I'm saying your worldview and perspective on this matter is so fundamentally backwards and incorrect, that I don't even know where the fuck I'm supposed to start with you.
I will say this: I'm not a preacher, and I don't really care what you believe, so I don't really want to convert you or care. I just do want to point out that your opinion is retarded, and it's insulting that you think I'm supposed to take this retarded garbage seriously.

>>211393549
>that's far more common in most Western societies.

>>211393489
>le ebin master argument is WHAT ABOUT DA ANIMALS?!?!?!
Okay Peta

>>211392431 (OP)
>le good is when you take free will away and fix everything with god-magic.

>>211393555
we think he was a better choice than Kamala

>>211393651
what is the context of this quote? it can't be about the christian God because epicurus died about three hundred years before jesus

>>211393720
>>211393715
You know it is valid when the response isn't a rebuttal to the argument but rather ad hominem attacks.

>>211393691
He's literally a fucking zoomer whose channel is primarily based around playing with Chat GPT!
You're a fucking retard, lol. I'm not going to take that bullshit seriously.
>"But this squeaker faggot dunks on le christians!"
Doubt it. Fuck off.
It's like sending me video of a retard playing with Tonka Trucks and telling me he totally dunks on Christians. Get real, dude.

>>211393748
But one of those addressed the argument.

>>211393735
Better choice? By what metric? If you judge him by the laws of the bible, he certainly is not the better choice。

>>211392593
Don't you fucking smear the NC, Cathocunt, he's more of a God than Kikesus Goyst will ever be.

>>211393777
believe it or not, we don't make all our decisions only based on the bible.
for example, Kamala and her ilk are in favor of all the illegals currently rioting and trashing the cities.

>>211393761
>They don't debate Theologians!
>Here is one that does
>Goalpost moves
Lmao

>atheism and secularism had its heyday in the 90s and 00s
>now it's dying out because atheists and secularists inevitably slide towards being a bunch of worthless self-obsessed narcissistic hedonists that don't produce anything of value or reproduce
lol
lmao even

If a 'movement' can't even keep itself alive what fucking good is it. No matter how much FACTS and LOGIC it huffs out of its own farts.

>>211393770
Lmao. This statement is surely a joke right?

>>211393808
Yeah. We call your kind Hypocrites.

>>211393823
No.
He said the argument wasn't what he was arguing.
I don't see how that didn't answer it in a proper way.

>>211393841
He said suffering exist because of free will. I ask why does this apply to animals who don't have free will. Because this deviates from his scripted reply, he chimps out despite it being a relevant question.

>God let me do something evil, so he must be evil
Atheists are some of the dumbest people on the planet.
Proverbs 19:3
A man's own foolish acts destroy his life. But his heart is angry with the Lord

>>211393703
anon the concept of a sky daddy is not exclusive to christianity...

>>211393837
what's hypocritical?
I can think Trump isn't the best Christian and still think he was a better choice for President than the moron skank.

>le nothing happened then life and the universe magically appeared then le nothing will happen
wait, how did that something happen after nothing the first time?
>le why would god create le evil!???
why would he create anything at all?

>>211393823
The debate was about the human experience of suffering and free will in relation to faith and god.
Why did you bring up animals at all? That was totally irrelevant to the discussion. Humans are not animals (in the common usage of the term). Why do you think their 'experience' matters any more than trees felled in wildfires or algae coalescing on scum?

It's obvious that in the basis of the abrahamic faiths is the idea that humans are uniquely special amongst all living creatures.

>>211393878
Bible tells you to put God first and therefore all your decisions should be made with God in mind. If you came to a decision that he is the better choice, then you did so without God in mind. Therefore you are a hypocrite, hope that helps.

>>211393865
so then why do they only babble about Christianity.
see that's what >>211393556 whole dodge was about. Now you're saying they DO know all there is to know.
Its almost like you're full of shit and just want to pick on the easiest target.

>>211393863
I can't speak for him, but it looked like he was saying the framing was off.
That suffering exists because of free will, but it isn't a test.
Which could possibly mean that animals do have freewill. Theirs just isn't because of a choice for eternal life.
Rather it's just about what to eat or where to go, etc.

>>211393903
I bring up animals because God also made animals. If God made humans but not animals, you have a point. But he made animals and thus he also made the world the animals experience.

>>211393907
I think there's also something about judging not lest ye be judged, so why don't you fuck off and not tell me what I'm supposed to believe or behave.

and it still doesn't indicate that Kamala was a better Christian or choice for president so it really doesn't make a fucking difference does it?

>>211392593
>explicitly told
Says a nigger who cites KJs. You have never heard the word of Jesus and you do not accept him in your heart.

>>211393915
Free will exist so humans have a choice to believe God or not. This is explicit stated in the Bible. As animals don't have this choice, ergo they have no free will.

>>211392431 (OP)
No because it doesn't understand that god is three entities
>The Father
Which is the architect basically of the system we live in. While the system has bad in it, it was created to lack constant intervention
>The Son
A direct embodiment of God's intervention because we had reached a point that required us to need his influence in our own form
>The Holy Spirit
These are the miracles you see that transcend the system itself and a bit harder to explain. It ties into your concept of a soul or a collective consciousness.

>>211393945
If you follow the bible, trump will never be the better choice. So you don't follow the bible, it is that simple.

>>211393990
Kamala was a better choice according to the bible.

>>211393962
I guess what the other guy is asking then is why do animals suffer? If animals don't have free will, and suffering is only for those with it, why do they suffer?
If I'm not phrasing it right, let me know.

>>211394006
If you read the bible

>>211394019
Yes. It isn't just suffering. It is unnecessary suffering. Christians often justify suffering as necessary for humans but this argument means they can't justify animals suffering

>>211394047

>>211394081
Says the guy who claims to read the bible and yet think trump is the better choice.

>>211394111
>God approved of Kamala's way

>>211394047
You're literally THE stereotype, lol. Comically insufferable, don't know what the fuck you're talking about, but you'll cry foul if nobody really listens to your whiny stupid BS.

>>211394141
Let's test your bible knowledge. How do you think Jesus would have approached the transexual issue? Would it be like Trump? Or Kamala?

>>211394157
>This guy who I think is total bullshit would TOTALLY back MY side.

>>211394157
No anon. You are THE literal stereotype of a modern day Christian. Christian on Sunday. Hypocrite and republican on the other 6.

>>211394175
He would exorcize them.

>>211394019
Same anon here.
The only reason I can think of off the top of my head is that perhaps animal suffering isn't the same as human suffering.
That the suffering relating to freewill is the existentialist kind, since worrying about the afterlife is what religion is founded on.
And that maybe the pain animals feel is because man rules over Earth, and since man chose sin, animals are affected by death.
That's all I can think of.

>>211394175
lets ignore you instead because I don't remember where anyone died and put you in charge of what makes a Christian.

Go pick on the Muslims instead-OH WHO AM I KIDDING?

>>211394209
Thanks for confirming the stereotype

>>211394218
No one did. But if your definition of Christian is someone claims to read the bible but don't follow the teachings, you fit it to a tee.

>>211394189
In your internet fantasy world, sure.
Sick of pretending your reddit/twitter political doomscrolling is legitimate.
Fuck off and stop being such a retard. Touch grass. Experience the real world, crawl the fuck out of your propaganda nightmare world.

>>211394211
Suffering also includes pain which is why children having cancer is brought up as an example. Cancer isn't existential.

>>211394219
Thanks for confirming the stereotype

>>211394255
prime example of no love greater than a Christian's love. Lmao

>>211394252
When was that my definition of anything? Don't confuse me with your imaginary friends.
Again, nobody has to run their credentials by you. You'll accept a woman is whatever decides it is but you're sitting here grading people on how thoroughly they remember the entire bible.

Like I said, go tell the Muslims how bullshit their god is, record their reaction so we can all see.

>>211394269
I agree. It's the mind capable of comprehending it that makes it existential.
I suppose my idea argues that there are layers of suffering.
That death is a universal consequence of sin.
The free-will to choose where you're going after death is exclusively for humans.
Therefore, the suffering that comes with it is the specific kind of suffering that free-will refers to.

>>211394294
You call yourself a Christian and yet support Donald Trump. You are a walking oxymoron.

>>211392431 (OP)
why not just concede that god isn't all powerful?
powerful enough to create the universe, maybe to interfere a little, but not much else

>>211394311
Hypocrite that you are, Donald Trump drinks water and you do too. Kill yourself for your eternal shame.

>>211394303
That justifies human suffering but not animals. Unless you are saying animals don't actually suffer despite feeling pain.

>>211394332
No love like Christian love.

>>211394311
I'm a Christian because I partook in all the sacraments required to be one.
I still don't get where you think you have any authority to judge anyone. Nobody has to partake your bullshit definition of what is what.
In fact, I'll tell you right now to kill yourself because you're a disingenuous piece of shit and sleep the sleep of the just.

have a good night. oh and tell us when you talk to those Muslims you keep ignoring.

>>211394361
You think someone who's like Trump doesn't deserve to die? George Floyd is very disappointed in you.

>>211392991
>>211393073
Death is not the end. There, I hope that helped you comprehend a bit more with your supposedly high IQs, cheers!

>>211394369
>I partook in the sacraments and therefore can ignore the teachings of the bible
Christians

this thread is full of retards.

None of you actually know what it means to be a christian

god himself couldn't have predicted the evil that is modern liberalism.

>>211394394
For animals it is.

>>211394401
Is following the bible a requirement to be a Christian?

>>211394398

>>211393719
Damn this nigga's got the longest arms I've ever seen

>>211393413
There is no good without evil. There is no freedom without choice. Salvation comes from those who CHOOSE to accept the Lord. That's what the original sin is supposed to be; you aren't born having already been saved by God, you must make the choice yourself to accept that it is through Him that you are saved.

>>211394425
Yes. The teachings of Christ.

The old testament is an entire prophecy and lineage to his coming and establishment as the bridge between sin fallen man and God. The new testament shows us how to live through his teaching and direction, whether it was from his mouth, or through the divine direction of his apostles

>>211392781
>Some would ask, how could a perfect God create a universe filled with so much that is evil? They have missed a greater conundrum: why would a perfect God create a universe at all?
If you're a step above the usual lackwitted atheist dross, you'll actually think about the statement for a while.

>>211394452
What do you think of this guy >>211394430 who doesn't follow the word of God but claims he is a Christian. Is he a Christian?

>>211394354
My argument is saying it isn't the same kind of suffering.
That the suffering animals feel, which is ultimately death, is a result of man choosing death in the garden.
Since God gave man rule over animals, animals suffer due to man.
>>211394446
The only way I can make sense of this is if God isn't good. Or, at least, good in the way we understand it.
That our idea of good is a good that only exists because of evil.
Which in that case, God calls himself good. But if our good is only reliant on evil, how can we understand what kind of good God is?
It's just all very confusing to me when taken to the logical end.

>>211393911
>so then why do they only babble about Christianity.
They were raised in a christian culture. It's the only faith they have (very very limited) experience in.
Anyone with wider experience knows the greatest evil is Islam.

>>211394470
No, he is most likely not a christian. Even demons know who God is, doesnt mean they *know* God

>>211393556
woosh

>>211394479
That's a bs copout because God could have given man free will and not made animals suffer. That's why I said unnecessary suffering. Man would be in the same situation regardless of animal suffering or not.

>>211394497
>This guy, who is totally not me, also says you're wrong, so there.
Holy shit, dude...

>>211394369
Matthew 7: 15-20

begone, false teacher

Yeah, if this is the best "God" can do I'm not impressed. C- work at best. It's hilarious to me that most people hate the thought of a monarchal regime where you swear fealty and devotion to a single figure who tells you what you can and cannot do or suffer horrible penalties yet will somehow justify this "loving" God in the same breath.

>>211394533
Talk to those Muslims yet?

>>211394488
The greatest evil is religion. You cannot say Islam is evil and then say Christianity is not. They are cut from the same cloth.

>he thinks that its like grade school where you have to follow rules or else you are going to hell
>he cant comprehend the rejuvenation and redemption of the soul by works of the holy spirit, embrued by a recognition of ones own sin nature and repenting

>>211394594
Are these Muslims in this thread with us?
If so, then Islam is just as bad as Christianity.

>It has reached the part of the discussion where the Christian has no more logical answers so he resorts to God works in mysterious ways as a copout
Many such cases.

>>211394594
What about them? They are simply just lost people who have been led astray by false teachers who twist the word of God.

I was no better when I was lost.

>>211392512
T. Read neitzche once or however you spell his dumb name. Or Jung or maybe Jordan Peterson

>>211394566
It's hilarious

The perfect loving merciful transcendent divine holy god of the bible can't act any better than a cosmic Kim jong un

Garbage that belongs in the bronze age

>>211394621
How is it a copout. You admit you are a sinner in need of grace. After doing this, the devotion to following the way of life that Christ and his apostles have outlined in the new testament you will have a change of heart and mind due to the Holy Spirit transforming you. It doesn’t look perfect, but thats where repentance and faith play a crucial role in the life of a believer

This isn’t rocket science pal

>>211394602
That's not what your bibble says though

If you have sex before marriage or lie then you still go to hell lol. Your free gift of salvation has shitty hidden fees

9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

>>211394683
Deranged

>>211394683
I simply don't believe in a world where a God would create unnecessary suffering.

>>211394694
>11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
key part here you seemed to have missed

>>211394730
>its another person not understanding free will and the fall of man episode

God has given people free will or God has no right to impinge on the human-born concept of free will therefore he is not evil as he cannot prevent evil that people do.

>>211394758
Good. That's not what I am talking about. I am talking about the unnecessary suffering of animals. My arguments are already in this thread so I won't repeat them.

>>211394785
God has not given animals free will therefore is he responsible for the sufferings that animals do unto other animals?

>>211394741
Doesn't mean anything

There are verses that say you cannot sin again after being saved which obviously never happens and would mean every Christian is a fake that goes to hell

>>211394788
And my point still remains.

Do you understand that the earth groans because of what was done in the garden? Its literally in genesis. Everything from toiling in the field (or office) to the pain of childbirth, cancer, etc etc is all caused because of our choice to sin. It corrupted everything, like a breach in the source code

>>211394809
So animals were all herbivores before some of them turned into carnivores post fall? Is that your argument?

>>211394802
Where does it say this? The bible IS very clear on continuously deliberately disobeying God’s commandments despite knowing them. This would mean you have no remorse or repentance, which means you probably were never really a christian to begin with

>>211394785
Free will does not exist

An omniscient creator negates free will


Romans 9 11-23 outright states free will doesn't exist
You don't have the free will to shoot lasers from my eyes. God is obviously fine with limiting your will. But allows enough just to make humanity suffer

Free will is just victim blaming nonsense evangelicals made up to deflect blame from the cosmic abuser demiurge

>>211394820
Yes.

>>211394507
I mean, yeah, if you care about the feelings of animals.
I'm not saying I'm right, I was just saying the first position that came to mind.

>>211394834
Does the magic rabbi forgive all your sins or not

Stop frauding people

>>211392431 (OP)
God made humanity in his image with the unique gift of true free will so that we could enjoy true enlightenment and inherit the world as an heir rather than as a pet
Behold the cunning work of frost

>>211394809
Who created satan

Why are the children more responsible than the creator

Deranged bullshit

>>211392431 (OP)
he's doing the white supremacy hand signal

>>211394850
The issue with defending an omnipotent God is that you have to defend every aspect of his creation. I don't necessarily care about the feelings of animals but I can use the experience of the animals to point out flaws about God.

>>211394849
You have just explained the reason but not the purpose. You are saying God allowed unneccessary suffering that does not benefit them? Doesn't sound omnipotent to me.

>>211394858
He does if you mean it with sincerity and brokenness in your heart. You cant just live however you want willy nilly and then on your death bed give some meaningless “i am sorry for what i did” and it be all good. It doesn’t work that way

Romans 6:6-8

[6] We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. [7] For one who has died has been set free from sin. [8] Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him.

what does god think of niggers? explain that one, christians

>>211392431 (OP)
God has made it clear multiple times that isn’t all good. He’s just as much infinite wrath as he is love lmfao

>>211392431 (OP)
I refuse to debate the concept of good with a billionaire techbro who just ten minutes prior decided to birth an unstoppable mindless monster.

>>211394892
I don’t understand what you are asking me to clarify

>>211392593
>YOU EXPLICITLY TOLD ME NOT TO SIN
He didn't do it. To know if something is good or bad, I have to read his book, understand it, find the right version between the Torah, Bible, and Quran. I have to know how to read, find a version available in my language, live in an era that allows me to do that... Couldn't he just download the manual directly into my head?

>>211394912
God created Africans to be slaves that harvest cotton or dredging sand and mining coltan and other mindless shit jobs. Duh. Consider the greater good.

>>211392961
>only way he could protect you from your own evil is by forcibly lobotomizing you, or taking your will away
no, he's supposed to be all powerful so he might very well find a way to do good without destroying free will

>>211394955
I am asking you to justify the purpose of animal suffering. You given the reason for animal suffering, you haven't given me the purpose of why God would allow it. Remember animals don't have free will, animals don't have an afterlife. When they die, they die die. Thus their suffering on this world can be seen as wholely unnessecary but yet allowed to exist by God.

>>211394895
Move Mt Everest to Washington DC in the next 10 minutes or be proven q faithless fraud

>>211394976
They worship the demiurge anon

This world is intentionally an engine of suffering because they consume that loosh energy

Abrahamic religions trick you into not awakening to the obvious reality and worshipping your captors

>>211394974
Okay, so God just zaps in your brain. You're happy, and you stop whining.
Is this a desirable outcome to you, or do you find the concept dystopian? I doubt you even understand what you want.
Let's say you get to play God. Alright? What would you do?

>>211394976
Alright, maybe think of it this way.

Before mankind sinned in the garden, everything that was created worked in peaceful harmony with itself. The ecosystem had balance through non violent means. A leopard could eat grass and sustain itself through that means of nutrients. Because of sin, it rearranged the balance of ALL life. Meaning man had to eat animals to survive, and animals had to prey on other animals to survive. That same leopard now needs animal protein and creatine to meet its nutritional needs instead of eating plant fiber, so unfortunately some warthog gets to pay the piper to feed the leopard.

Idk if this makes sense but the garden was perfect and there was no suffering before the fall of man. So however the ecosystem was structured it did not have the need for the destruction of other lifeforms to sustain itself, sin changed that. I don’t know why, but it just did. Mankind cursed all life so that animals have to kill each other to eat. that is the purpose of the animals suffering

>>211392961
>"Why doesn't God just directly mind control me constantly?"
Good question. Being mind controlled by God would be indistinguishable from knowing the Good, since God is all Good. So uh... why doesn't he? Aquinas even defined Heaven...as a state of being mind controlled by God, actually.

>>211394994
that's a metaphor. imagine being too stupid for religion

>>211395045
You given the reason why animals suffers but not the purpose. There is no purpose in animal suffering. Mankind cursed all life is the reason it exist. But it is not the purpose of its existence. Nothing in your reply gives purpose to animal suffering. Remember you need to justify why it exist.

>>211395045
Your god created lucifer

The simplest answer is he's corrupt asshole

>>211395112
We don’t talk about what happened between God and the dark one. No one really knows and no one in the bible knew and I think there is a good reason for that.

>>211395093
Because it would be weird if they didn't.
>Oh, every time I stab this animal, it disappears into a cloud!

>>211395140
Human visiting suffering upon animals is different from animals visiting suffering upon other animals. Remember animals are NOT moral agents.

>>211395093
You are really talking in circles man. I feel like I have outlined pretty logical reasoning for what you are asking about.

>>211394837
Free will does exist.
You're just making up your own rules and throwing a tantrum that everything doesn't adhere to them.
It's deranged.

>>211395074
>nothing will be impossible for you

That's no metaphor christjew.

>>211392431 (OP)
You are taking that line too seriously and literally. The purpose of him saying that is to show the audience he is a bitter person who hates himself and the world. Standard atheist train of thought. If you ask an atheist why he doesn't believe in god, he hears/answers the question of why he hates god. I.e. "I'm ugly and unpopular and my life sucks." expressed usually impersonally more "But muh' suffering around the world!"

>>211394963
He has. You already know what is right and wrong in your heart.

>>211395167
Romans 9 already says free will doesn't exist

I'll make this simple. Can gods will be thwarted. Yes or no?

>>211395160
Animals suffering happen because mankind sinned is a huge copout in defence of a God you deem omnipotent. I hope you realize that.

>>211392431 (OP)
MARTHA

>>211392961
So what the hell is heaven? Apparently it’s a place devoid of sin, where us humans wouldn’t even think to sin and we’re still happy and in bliss. So is there no free will in heaven? If so, how? And why isn’t that possible on earth? If not, then again, why isn’t that possible on earth since it’s clearly good enough for a forever afterlife.

>>211395167
>Free will does exist.
You are now breathing manually

>>211395227
The bible describes heaven quite explicitly.

>>211395192
>UMMMM HE GAVE US CHALLENGES WHICH MEANS HE FORCED ME TO GIVE UP
Free will exists. You're just a little bitch.

>>211395227
>he doesnt know about the new earth
You guys gotta read more of the bible.
Revelation 21

>humans have existed for 200,000 years
>god decided to start talking to them 2,000 years ago
what was happening for the first 198,000 years?

>>211395237
You didn't answer the question

Can gods will be thwarted. Yes or no?

>>211395257
Humans were too low-iq to bring god into this world as a concept.

>>211395261
No.
But you can always choose to ruin your part in it. Romans 11.

>>211394294
You and Muslims worship the same god, dummy.

>>211395030
nta but if im all powerful im making a world where freewill feels like freewill but theres no suffering
so the choice doesnt matter, because why would i give live to something and make it suffer?
that doesn't seem loving especially if the prize for doing the right thing is a lobotomy for all time.

>>211395283
>No gods will cannot be opposed

Then free will doesn't exist. Debate over. You lost lol

>>211395308
correct, but they do not profess the name of Jesus Christ. They follow a false prophet who raped and murdered and brought forth fear to get people to buy into his dogma

>>211395227
> Apparently it’s a place devoid of sin, where us humans wouldn’t even think to sin and we’re still happy and in bliss
Well, no less a thinker than Saint Thomas Aquinas reasoned that it would be... God directly beaming knowledge of the Good into people's minds such that their "free will" (which naturally desires the Good) would be eternally satisfied. Strangely. he doesn't do this by default.

>>211395324
What a special sort of retardation -- trying to negate your own free will with a semantic trap based on simplified, bullshit "gotcha"
You didn't even read my answer. If you did, you were too dumb to understand it.

>>211393761
>whose channel is primarily based around playing with Chat GPT!
Those ChatGPT videos of his seem to draw in crazy views, but he’s made like 4 or 5 of them and 100+ videos about religion. His channel absolutely does not revolve around ChatGPT, it’s just ones that get a lot of views.

>>211395309
Christians have spend decades defending and justifying human suffering. You need to undermine their logic with animal suffering. Till date, not even the best Theologian has been able to full rebut this argument.
If God is truly omnipotent and morally perfect, then He could have actualized a world where Humans experience the same moral growth, spiritual drama and redemptive story without the collateral suffering of animals who are not moral agents. So if animal suffering still exist, it is unnecessary, and a good God wouldn't allow it.
Even the best theologians at best can come to a compromise regarding this topic, much less 4chan neck beards.

>>211395357
It was refuted in this thread, you stupid jackass.
Your hollow brain not accepting the answer doesn't negate that.

>>211393509
Same god, different flavors of interpretation. So they’re all bullshit. Stop browsing western websites if you don’t want to see Christianity shit on so much.

>>211395227
>>211395336
Lucifer and his angels were in heaven and still sinned lol

It's all bullshit

>>211395354
ChatGPT is satanic

>>211395324
There's no debate, you can go back in time and make a look-alike double of yourself during the moment that's why look-alike people exist.

>>211395357
>Hey guys, if I make up my own morality that God doesn't belong to, he doesn't exist. Checkmate!
What a retarded jackass.

>>211395369
>Humans sinned therefore its is okay for non-moral agents to suffer
Is not the argument you want to be making retard.

>>211395349
Did you just deny that gods will is not absolute

Enjoy hell blasphemer

>>211393864
Trying keeping up with the discussion at hand, anon.

>>211395396
Yes. That is how it works when you are defending an omnipotent morally Good God. You realized the crux of the argument. Congrats.

>>211393902
>why would he create anything at all?
Great question. I assume you have an answer. And then once you answer that let’s tackle the whole “why’d he create evil” question. They might even have the same answers.

I find it weird that so many people are afraid of dying. Well, perhaps not dying but the idea of consciousness ceasing to exist after death. That pretty much covers the elderly faith demographic.

Others need to believe in the idea of omnipotent forces beyond our comprehension that balance good and evil, in addition to enforcing some form of righteous justice. This is not unique, many faiths are built upon the concept of karmic systems. Bad news; look around and tell me that karma works.

Of course, some people believe you need a deity or scripture to follow to be a good person... Or maybe they believe they are incapable of being anything less than an ape without such instruction. They aren't introspective enough to analyze this in any that requires a degree of self-awareness. Otherwise, they may just be highly suggestible. We call these people retards.

Pray if it soothes you. Believe in any of the dog shit you want. Children will starve and die. The most irreprehensibly evil people on this plant will continue to win. And, you (yes, you Anon) will one day cease to exist once your brain shuts down. Enjoy this life while it lasts.

Threadly reminder that the bible literally teaches heaven is a mansion in the sky

The fact this isn't true means you can disregard the rest of the Jewish fairytales

>>211395401
You're coming up with your own lame ultimatums that don't apply. Your theoreticals have no value.
"It will happen." Is different from "It will happen, and YOU MUST BE THE ONE TO DO IT" are two different things.
It's not a difficult concept.
You just don't want to be held accountable for your own decisions.

>>211394316
This was always my confusion with the Abrahamic faith. If they just backpedaled on the whole all powerful part of their god, they wouldn’t be getting dogpiled so much. It’s glaringly obvious that their god isn’t all powerful and also all loving considering the world we live in, and no amount of mental gymnastics can properly address it. Having a god that created the universe is still an insane feat, that should be good enough. But they got greedy or something and had to make him the most powerful being ever that’s capable of literally anything, except he can’t actually do anything because of his mysterious ways. So fucking stupid.

>>211395411
You are operating under a flawed definition of "Good" and your assumptions are incorrect. No. You DON'T get to choose the morality of God. You're a clown for thinking that.

>>211395426
>enjoy the ride
Why? You just said nothing matters.

>>211395406
It refutes literally everything you've got.
>God created free will so HE MUST BE EVIL OR NOT BE OMNIPOTENT!
That's 1000000% the argument that every single atheist in this thread has made, because you're all so retarded you can't fathom the idea that your preschool-level philosophical understanding of "Good" might be incomplete.

>>211395468
So God's morality includes the suffering of non-moral agents? Because I am stating it is, and since you are telling me that my definition is flawed, you are stating that God views the suffering of non-moral agents as Good? Are you sure this is the argument you want to make?

>>211395499
The argument is this moral
>God created animal suffering so he must be evil or not be omnipotent
Unless you think animal suffering is good of course.

>>211395506
When it's necessary, it includes suffering, yes.
Do YOU have to understand it for it to exist?
You're arguing like a fucking toddler.

>>211395522
>I HAVE TO CHEW FOOD, SO GOD DOESN'T EXIST
>A ANIMAL CRIED, SO GOD DOESN'T EXIST
I don't think these arguments will hold up when God asks you why you went around screeching blasphemies and denying moral agency throughout your life. You'd make any pathetic argument you could to excuse yourself. You don't have a good argument. You just picked one and called it enough.

I was not created by a kike, sorry.

>>211395530
Animals are non-moral agents so their suffering is never necessary. Are you now arguing animals are moral agents?

>>211395543
You know you won an argument when the reply is all ad hominem and makes no effort to rebut your points. I'll take the concession.

In the age of Epicurus gods were neither all good nor all powerful. Why then is this a requirement for divinity?

>>211395140
>Because it would be weird if they didn't
Why would that be inherently weird? Obviously if it started happening now it’d be weird, but if that’s the way the world was created it wouldn’t. It’d just be normal.

>>211395543
>Moral grandstand engaged!
this anon is bringing out the big guns! Check mate atheists

>Perfect and unnerring word of go- ACK

>>211392961
>because humans are given the ability to live outside of god's will
So he's not all powerful?

>>211395549
>Animals are non-moral agents so their suffering is never necessary.
Says (You)
But you don't know anything.
Why do you even think you know anything?

>>211395167
Then why not define free will? Once defined prove that your definition exists. Because there’s absolutely nothing that gives credit to the concept of free will.

>>211395543
>agency
So God doesn’t already know where I end up? He is ignorant and subject to linear time?

>>211395559
>Animals can be sad, so God doesn't exist
Isn't this your argument?

>>211395236
No it doesn’t.

>>211395584
What are you implying?
Animals are moral agents?
Or it is okay for non-moral agents to suffer?
You accuse others of arguing like a toddler but you argue like a utter fucking bitch boy who can't even make a single point.

>>211395581
>God allows something
>SO HE'S NOT ALL POWERFUL!?!!?!?!?!?
Atheists are so fucking stupid. Every one of you is a clown.

>>211395597
Yes. If animal suffering exist and it is unnessecary, then God is can't be all good or can't be all powerful.

>>211395597
You already got btfo

Stop acting glib to try to salvage your failed jew worship lol

You need to be extremely spiritually elect to worship the blind idiot cuckold God, raging as his creations freely will against him (for no reason).

>>211395610
If God allows animal suffering, it doesn't mean he is not all powerful. It just means he is not all Good. Which jusifies the OP. It seems like all the Christians in this thread are not equipped to deal with animal suffering.

>>211395385
Well yeah, it’s bullshit. Why Christians still believe in heaven or hell is odd. It negates the whole concept of free will.

>>211395613
>>211395617
>God can only exist if animals are never, ever sad
Do you guys keep your cats coked out on soma 24/7 because that's the only humane way to treat an animal? Constant, uninterrupted full-court pleasure?

>>211395336
Thomas Aquinas is famous for a reason, but that doesn't make his arguments biblical. Dante's inferno was also very popular, to the point it defines the aesthetic of hell. However, it's not actually scriptural.
I can confidently say that Thomas Aquinas' opinion on the matter is just as valid as anyone else's.

>>211392475
True, that's a fucking stupid analogy
This is the original

Fucking stupid Zack Snyder didn't even got what it meant

>>211395581
>My dad let's me out of my bedroom to play
>So he's not all powerful
You're a retard, shut the fuck up, lol.
Bet you thought this bullshit was a real zinger too.

>>211395629
Suffering is not the same as sad. Suffering includes pain. Grow up.

>>211395621
>It just means he is not all Good.
Incorrect.
It means YOUR understanding is limited.

>>211395622
>Ok, I'll allow you to do anything you want for a bit.... Until you die! Then I'll condemn you to eternal punishment for your transgressions. It was your* choice to allow me to choose to condemn you.

This God guy sounds pretty alright.

>>211393067
>*laughs in Utnapishtim*

>>211395449
You're not addressing anything as usual and hoping your christian deflection will save you

God's will can either be thwarted or it cannot. Take your pick

>>211395651
Incorrect how? Are you implying that God's definition of God means unnessecary suffering of non-moral agents? Because that is what you are implying.

>>211392593
why is doug wallker burning in hell?

>>211395426
You're just saying words without purpose. Shut up retard. Nobody should pray. God doesn't exist and you should die like a man.

>>211395581
I doubt god has anything to do with human greed, if not for that there would be no children with diseases

>>211395668
It's addressing EVERYTHING.
It will happen.
It's YOUR CHOICE to be part of it.
Your stupid ultimatums don't work, because they're stupid and contrived. They don't make God's Judgement disappear.

>>211395655
God sees the entire picture before he even begins to paint it. From his view he doesn’t let us do anything, he presses a button and then at his leaisure can look at point in time but the results are already known. He essentially throws us directly into the wood chipper unless you are graced to be saved, not by your own merit or acts mind you. You must be rescued.

>>211395499
>God created free will
Not a single atheist in this thread said this. To begin with, they wouldn’t believe god created anything, and for me personally I’ve seen zero good support for the concept of free will. No, we’re arguing that free will, which does not exist, is a shitty cop out for god being bad at the whole all powerful and all loving thing. He’s incapable of creating a world free of unnecessary suffering for not just animals, but also humans (natural disasters are not a product of free will), but we’re also supposed to believe he managed to create a heaven that fixes all of that. No Christian in this thread has been able to prove or debate these simple concepts.

>>211395674
You don't know what's necessary or unnecessary, do you? You don't know anything about souls or eternity. You don't even think they exist. (You) are operating under an extremely basic, extremely limited understanding of 'Good' that doesn't even get past your own arrogant nose.

>>211395641
Us.
We're evil.
That's the entire fucking concept of original sin, but you keep saying that shit to an atheist and they just give you the fluoride stare and zone the fuck out or something.
God COULD get rid of evil, but it would require smiting us or robbing us of our wills. So he leaves us alone, and has provided instructions on how to overcome our own evil natures.
That's the fucking PREMISE of the religion!
So, this thread has devolved into debating people who don't even really understand even the most basic concepts of the religion, yet want to talk shit about it. Not only that, but they have the gall to presume some moral and/or scientific authority, despite the fact that they are too ignorant to even know the most absolute basics of the topic they're shitting and pissing in.

>it is not by your works you are saved but by grace
>no man can come to me unless the Father draws him

Oops looks like you have no idea what you are talking about. Free will is explcitly denied in the bible

You don't even know your own doctrine and spout every possible copium to trick people into your cult lol

>>211395651
But your understanding is complete and infallible? You got a 3rd unreleased edition of that bible of yours we don’t know about. You believe your god created us in his image, that we innately know what’s good and what’s evil. But when it doesn’t jive with you, you’re now moving the goalpost that we don’t truly know good yet you, a human, does. Lol

>>211395713
Original sin is victim blaming nonsense

Your jewgod created the conditions where man should fall

>>211395711
So predictable >>211394621

>>211395737
If you think the bible never talks about the suffering of innocents or whether or not that will be recompensed with glory in Heaven, then you haven't read it (which is obvious)

>>211395629
Even if I did, it doesn’t prevent the other cats currently getting their intestines chewed up by some rats in an alleyway somewhere. Also I’m not your god, so you probably shouldn’t be comparing my actions to an all powerful creator of the universe.

>>211395756
What about the suffering of animals?

>>211395705
>God is just so big and powerful wow he is like my dad when I was 12
You have such a juvenile mind and soul. I guess that's why christcucks so easily believe in fairy tales.

>>211395763
Those, too, get glory.
But you don't care. Your argument was never in good faith anyway.

Lol people reading books written by barely literate sand niggers and using that as a compass for their mirals. Good thing they removed the part about goat fucking in the King James edition kek

>>211395780
No they don't. It doesn't.

>>211395713
Got 3 words into this dumb post and I’ve come to realize all you Christians are utterly retarded and will repeat the same tired argument on a loop like a broken record. They didn’t teach you something else to justify your dumb faith?? It gets brought up, someone blows the argument out of the water, and then another Christian comes in and brings it up again. Stop this shit. Free will is a bad cop out. It always has been and it always will be. It doesn’t address the majority of the issues wrong with the world and it’s a half thought out concept.

>>211395780
Not in good faith? That is hilariously rich coming from you. My argument is that animal suffering is not a good thing and your rebuttal is "hmm maybe animal suffering is a good thing according to God". That is peak bad faith argument.

>>211395788
It does.
Revelation 5:11-13
One of the very, very few descriptions of heaven. It's chock-full of every animal on earth.

>>211395814
Doesn't mention animals suffering.

>>211395770
I’m not Christian retard I’m just describing how grace works in practical terms and how fucked up it is when you think about it for a minute.

>>211395756
No I’ve read it. Pointing out the Bible said something doesn’t address the issue that it’s highlighting. I already know your answer to this question will be the default “he works in mysterious ways, he’s beyond your comprehension”, but why would god put the innocents through that? You can even say free will, but a child slipping and falling into the river and slowly drowning seems a bit unnecessary. And saying they’ll get their reward later, still raises the question of why they had to do it. You’ve got absolutely nothing.

>>211395829
It mentions them sharing in the glory of God in heaven. The same place that man has to suffer to enter into.

>>211395793
Christcucks are the heart of the matrix. They keep the matrix going by being good goys. They aren't arguing in good faith. They are like matrix agents that are defending their home.

>>211395814
C'mon dude really? What those sections are not past on souls of Earth animals. Those are more like a bird you see in Lord of the rings. It's bird-like , but it's not* a bird because it exists in a fictitious world. No need to respond; I know I won.

>>211395842
They are demiurge worshippers

>>211395838
Animals. Use animals because then they can't copout and say they will get their rewards after.

>>211395814
Which version of the Bible?

>>211392961
Okay, but he literally created us, so why did he make pedophiles?

>>211395838
Every argument you make is just a stupid argument.
When will you get that?

>>211395850
>I didn't read the homework, but here's what I think
Read it. Idiot. You can read, right?

>>211392431 (OP)
>There is nothing good or bad thinking makes it so.

An omnipotent being isn't kept in check by human morality. Who's to even say what God is? Is he even a being in general or is it light or love itself?

>>211395897
>Uhhh original sin cuz we all born wit it. Pedophiles choose to be sexually attracted to children. They are pedophiles because they are evil.

Did I predict the response with accuracy? We shall see.

>>211395867
I don’t even have to use animals. There are countless examples of humans suffering that has nothing to do with how evil humans are. We live on a planet with so many natural disasters and circumstances and there’s zero way to use free will to hand wave it. Even if that child got to heaven, the suffering was unnecessary, and it raises questions about the supposed all loving god these people worship. “He’s mysterious” can only help you cope long enough until you just have to stop being retarded and accept that your god is either not around anymore, doesn’t care, never existed, isn’t all powerful, or isn’t all good.

>>211395841
No it doesn't. In heaven here means the skies. not literal heaven.

>>211395901
So no argument, got it.

>>211395922
Did you not get through the reading? It's three fucking verses.

>>211395920
I get your logic and I agree with it. However Christians do not and have time and time again justified suffering against moral agents simply because they are moral agents. The use of non-moral agents take their defense away from them.

>>211395930
Answer my question. Which version of the Bible? Which translation, which edition, which interpretation?

>>211395929
You don't read arguments. You just make them.
And they're stupid.
Your arguments have all been refuted, yet you carry on regardless, ignoring them all.

Good thread you godless homos

>>211395941
Pick one.
>>211395939
>If you don't pay attention to what anyone says, they can never refute you!
Stupid.

>>211395930
Yes I did. Animals don't go to heaven. Period.

Ever own a fishtank?
To the fish, you're God.

Are you all knowing and all powerful?
Are you all evil or all good?

The fish still get regularly fed, cleaned water, poo is removed from the gravel. Compared to a wild fish, their worse curse is boredom and lack of exploration space. Now let's look at the fish theology... basically it's INSUFFICIENT as humans have JOBS, they responsibilities to other humans too, they can die. Omnipotence, good, evil, morality of the supernatural? Absurdly simplistic and insufficient as fish morality has no concept of "office jobs", getting drunk after work and stuffing yourself with pizza and watching TV, have fish played videogames or paid taxes?

GOOD? EVIL? Feh, not even part of the bigger discussion.

>>211395946
>I'm done arguing with you. I'm done arguing with you just cause.

Is this a 'faithful' interpretation of this response? Just read your 'argiment'.

>>211395946
Odd, I think all your arguments have been refuted, and yet you keep making them. I think you just really want to believe in this book and have this faith. I guess keep doing that. No one’s going to change your mind. I don’t think your god or your concept hold any weight and you’re doing mental gymnastics in order to accept anything, but that doesn’t seem to be stopping you so have at it I guess.

>>211395963
Then what is literally every animal on earth doing in heaven in the only physical description of heaven in the bible?

>>211392431 (OP)
Snyder Lex was the son of an alcoholic slav who fled the Soviet Union and took out his trauma on his son. The dude had massive daddy issues that he projected onto god and godlike figures.

>>211395979
>I think all your arguments have been refuted
Nope. They've only been ignored.

>>211395981
Depending on which translation you use, Heaven is synomous with the word sky and can be interpreted as such.

>>211395962
>If I say God works in mysterious ways, I always win the argument

>>211396003
If you weren't such an arrogant ass, you'd actually read the verses and already know how stupid your 'argument' is.

>>211396003
Translation:
>It's kind of whatever you feel like man.

Moving moving into hippy Christianity now. Yee haw!

>world on verge of WWIII cause white people had to go and suck off a jewish religion and make it their main culture for 2000 years
Shiggy diggy.

>>211396011
>If I compartmentalize your argument into a reduction that I already don't accept, then I've won!

>>211396024
Now you realize how you argument sounds like huh?

>>211395738
based God not givin a fug and doin whatever He wants atheists could never

>>211396016
You can cherrypick the bible to say whatever you want it to say. And I am not even kidding.

>>211396003
These verses, the word "heaven" appears once, and it IS referring to the sky, because it's talking about birds.
But the context is that the chapter is taking place in Heaven (not the sky) which is obvious to the reader.

>>211395962
>Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, saying:

>“To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb
be praise and honor and glory and power,
for ever and ever!”

This is the verse you were talking about? You decided to take this one to mean animals are in heaven and talking? I thought you actually had an argument for a second, but that’s pretty stupid. Animals don’t talk. And there are versions that say
>And I heard every created thing that is in heaven or on earth or under the earth [in Hades, the realm of the dead] or on the sea, and everything that is in them, saying [together], “To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb (Christ), be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever.” So this would mean trees, rocks, plants, literally everything is in heaven and chanting about god.

>>211396074
Again which version are you talking about. This anon does a better argument than me >>211396077

>>211396077
>Sure it says that every animal on the planet is in Heaven, singing a song to their creator... but that's not ... possibly what it means
lol k

>>211396087
His entire argument is "NUH UHHHHHHH!!!!"
while the scripture makes it very clear.

>>211396100
Which scripture? Cause what we are reading is not the original scripture.

>>211396077
Didn’t mean to greentext that last sentence. Trees, rocks, plants, grass, sand, water, none of those things talk. It’s a bad argument and if this was a passage used to convey anything else you didn’t like, you’d be the first to say it was a metaphor. But you want to take it literally to win an argument.
>>211396100
>>211396090
Are you trolling. Animals don’t talk, nor do trees or rocks or grass.
Are you now saying that you take everything in the Bible as literal, or do you cherry pick somethings as not? The passage where literally creation is in heaven wouldn’t be the one you take at face value. Unless you were being disingenuous to win an argument. And no, it didn’t clearly say animals were in heaven. Just like it doesn’t clearly say anything ever so it can hide being plausible deniability.

>>211396119
>>211396124
What a pair of absolute clowns. The truth is irrefutable; right in their eyes and yet they are compelled to reject it.

>>211396134
Says the guy who is trying to justify animals suffering.

>>211395970
First of all animism is real so the fish knows about everything you're doing and it's just playing along as a fish for the benefit of your experience.
Second of all most fish are free in the ocean and not in a tank.
Third of all you chose to frame yourself as a fish in a tank when you could have chosen any analogy. There is no reason why we have to default to being prisoners.

>>211396142
You reject meaning. What good is it to discuss anything with you?

>>211396134
>The truth is irrefutable
So you really believe that animals do in fact go to heaven, and because of which, all their suffering is justified? Even though they didn’t experience the fall or original sin. Even though they don’t have agency? Even though up until halfway through this thread you weren’t even aware of that passage and were arguing for the fact that their suffering wasn’t actually suffering and you were defaulting to the whole god works in mysterious ways argument. And after asking an AI for passages about animals in heaven, you pick one that doesn’t even talk about animals, but instead all of creations, and you exposit that even though animals and trees can’t talk, it’s a literal passage and not a metaphor. And you’re calling others clowns?

>>211396171
There is no meaning in animal suffering.

>>211392431 (OP)
>God has to be good, and "good" has to mean "I benefit"

>some people get killed
>GOD IS DEAD OR EVIL!!!
>billion of years of absolute slaughter between every living organism
>THATS NATURE AND FREE WILL OR SOMETHING!

>>211396369
Read the thread

>>211395713
>God COULD get rid of evil, but it would require smiting us or robbing us of our wills.

>I'm sorry Timmy you just gotta die of leukemia at 5 because designing a world where innocent children don't die of cancer interferes with free will somehow
By the way, how come we people are allowed to interfere with free will through prison and even as much as pre-trial detention, but apparently it's too much for god to stop the child rapist from raping the child?

>>211393509
All kikes should hang with the christians, muslims, hindus and whatever religious people out there. Happy?

>>211396515
Because free will. Don't bother arguing with them because free will. Instead argue about the suffering of those without free will.

>>211395838
It's a trial. You are to keep your faith despite the suffering and hardships.

The whole point is that your time on Earth is a test. Despite all the evil and sorrow and pain that happen, if you keep your faith you get an eternity of bliss. It's "what are 80 years of suffering to an eternity of joy?"

>>211396977
Then what is the point of all the suffering, pain and evil that happens to animals that don't get an eternity of bliss?

>>211396977
>Timmy i won't even let you grow to an age where you could actually mature enough to develop character that could be reasonably tested, your test is gonna be dying of leukemia at 5
I love how christcucks just memoryhole any suffering that doesn't fit their extremely specific cope.

>>211392431 (OP)
That's fucking retarded

>>211392431 (OP)
That's fucking correct

>>211397246
>>211396463

>>211395257
God was busy with other matters

>>211395257
He was waiting until we get this bread thing down to a t, he doesn't want us to know fish and bread is all he can multiply.

>>211396463
Anything that's all powerful isn't bound by rules of morality.