>kills you and creates a copy

>>211424077 (OP)
Not my problem

>painlessly releases you from the hell we call life and btfos your doppelganger to suffer the rest of your lifespan

>>211424229
>btfos your doppelganger to suffer the rest of your lifespan
lmao at that faggot for having to live with my memories. good luck.

>>211424077 (OP)
and it feels great all over

>>211424229
>Teleport and die a virgin
>this time it will be different

>>211424077 (OP)
My step-dad said there's no issue with this a copy of you living on while you die. He's a fucking retard.

>>211424077 (OP)
>the entire plot of The Prestige was just Star Trek teleporter

gay

>>211424077 (OP)
i dont care, sometimes i wanna die

>>211425220
holy kek

>>211424077 (OP)
how do they fight the transporter fish if they're already dead retard

>>211424077 (OP)
It's completely agonizing by the way. The only reason they don't know that is because the copy doesn't remember the death of the original.

>>211425485
>It's completely agonizing by the way.
for 0.5 seconds

imagine if there was an afterlife, and every time you teleported, you died and went to hell, and once you finally die for good, you have to go to hell and see all your copies sitting there.

>>211424077 (OP)
the soul cant be killed, dipshit

>>211424077 (OP)
>>211424229
observer-moment aligns with the copy, you haven't escaped. same as if you try suicide and just reduced the number of universes where your OM can reside in. enjoy permanent inescapable hell

>>211424104
fpbp

>>211424077 (OP)
Same that happens to your thread, how many times did you post this?

>>211425256
Holy rent free

>>211424077 (OP)
We die and a copy replaces us when we sleep

>>211425569
the metaphysical effects are permanent. Time slows to a quantum pace and you live a billion billion lifetimes in agony of being torn apart at an atomic level

>>211425714
dumb zoomer

>>211425220
kek

>>211425748
That's what they get for being space socialists.

>>211424077 (OP)
It should have been a plot point. A large number of smart people can be convinced to use this tech, but what about the people who refused? Surely that would be a majority. In TNG there was a season with Dr. Polaski who was hesitant but I don't think her objection was that it would kill her each time.

I want to see it used to examine the deeper philosophy behind Federation explorers who willingly allow themselves to be murdered casually hundreds of times. Is there something about the people who want to do this kind of work that alleviates their fear of death? Are they on some sort of medication that dampens concern? They leave Utopia to exist on the dangerous fringes of space and get mutilated by aliens and gods and they willingly walk into a murder machine a few times per month. They are very different from the humans that I know.

>Gets stuck in the transporter filter and revived decades later and is just fine.

worst plot device ever.

>>211426338
only scotty achived that and even he didn't know if it would work and it was just a plot device so scotty could show up on tng

>>211425220

>>211426526
Doctor M'Benga preserved his daughter using the same technique, so that's false. I wonder if you're even aware of the actual canon of Star Trek? You made a claim that:
>only scotty achived[sic] that
when canon Trek actually has other characters exploiting this technique. Do you intend to apologize? Or acknowledge your error? What a sad state of affairs for /trek/.

>>211424077 (OP)
There is no self as such, so who cares?

We teleport all philosophers.
Without the copying part.

>>211427188
you do, if you believe being transported kills you and replaces you with a copy, then if you get transported your copy will view itself as a new life and the original you as dead, so you’ll have an immediate personality shift

>>211424229
Now that's a salesman!

>>211427066
>Doctor M'Benga preserved his daughter using the same technique, so that's false
Yeah, and the Federation encountered the Borg over 600 times before Q came along.

First is first, the rest is crap writers giving drooling fans what they want.

>>211427418
>only scotty achived[sic] that
...was false. The fact that Scotty was "first" isn't relevant.

>>211425485
cant be, one tng episode with a teleporter fearer had people stuck mid teleport that appeared as worm creatures to the guy mid teleport, he was able to physically interact with them and remove them from their limbo state. you'd expect the stuck people to remember that, or at least take multiple copies of the same guy through.

From an engineering perspective, they'd have had tests where something, then some animals, were held in the pattern buffer for six months. Only after multiple successes would they dream of introducing it into production.

>>211427687
"Pattern buffer holds it for a few seconds while it transmits."

"Good enough, ship it!"

>>211427656
stfu nerd

>>211427656
thomas riker

BTW, McCoy stated at one point the horror of beaming your molecules all over the place. Hence the "beam" of "beaming". There isn't really a debate about this kind of teleportation, at least in Star Trek.

"Giants" universe, and "Collapsium" universe use kill-you disassembly teleporters. Go knock yourselves out there.

Captcha: ASS2S

>>211427758
Created by the planet's anomaly. You know, the anomaly they were there to study.

LAFORGE: Apparently there was a massive energy surge in the distortion field around the planet just at the moment you tried to beam out. The Transporter Chief tried to compensate by initiating a second containment beam.
RIKER: How was the second pattern able to maintained its integrity?
LAFORGE: The containment beam must have had the exact same phase differential as the distortion field.

>>211425748
>I cease to exist on an atomic level
How would I perceive anything at this point? How would I even be “I” at that point?

>>211427935
What if they didn't destroy the original, but rather teleported your info, then came at you with a chainsaw?

Now do you doofs understand? Lol.

>>211427895
Oh, so the second containment beam had the exact phase differential as the distortion field, therefore thomas riker

>>211427935
come in and find out for yourself captain

>>211428086
You know where I can find another distortion field like that one?

>>211424077 (OP)
What if they didn't destroy the original, but rather teleported your info, then came at you with a chainsaw?

Now do you doofs understand? Lol.

>>211428120
Not an answer.

>lets use this as a narrative device to move our characters from one set to another without having to worry about how
becomes
>haha what if it kills you every time and brings back a copy
>it saves records of you every time so technically if you get sick or something you can go into the transporter and the engineer will just reboot the healthy copy and you (the copy) will be just fine
>if you keep yourself/copy in the buffer for an indefinite amount of time, assuming the equipment holds up you'll be left exactly as is for as long as you want (you won't notice though!)
>well we can't teleport you the thick atmosphere, so I'll just actually make two copies of you, then try to bring you both back up, which will be enough to squeeze one of you through, and I'll just let the second one bounce back down and leave a copy of your copy down there... but I'll be sure to kill it before it has a chance to rematerialize! (forgot to do that last part LMAO)
>if we beam two of you up with specific types of fauna, that fauna will fuck up the transport and merge you both into a (copy of a) singular monstrosity that will become loved enough by everyone except for one bitch, and so we'll just use the transporter to split you back into (copies of) the original two people somehow, its not murder since it was an accident in the first place!
its why its better not to think too much about these things

>>211428160
I see you are still unprepared for the esoteric pleasures of the transporter realm

>>211424077 (OP)
Doesn't matter, you have a persistent point of view and continuity of consciousness.
Also in the logic of trek you're broken down at an atomic level, and then those bits are transferred through the matter stream and reassembled on the other end.
It was cheap quickly produced show, so you can find counter examples like riker getting cloned. So really its you coming out of the other end.

>>211428128
Should be easily replicable given utopia science. Why send the flagship to investigate otherwise?

>>211428493
Because it was a simple plot device to have an episode with 2 rikers.
Its sort of like hyperspace in the first six star wars movies. How does it work? Who cares! It doesn't matter, its job is to make sure our characters can get from planet A to B. It works instantly except when you need some dramatic tension and you have to get to the "jump point" or whatever. Its fine, doesn't need to be explained, but then in the last jedi and revenge of the skywalker now its a super weapon that can blow up an entire fleet of super carriers, and probably should have been done before the first ship ran out of gas and got blown up anyway.
Then in rise of the revenge they're jumping in atmosphere, or hopping, or whatever that thing is that you're "not supposed to do!" and the infamous "that was a one-in-a-million chance" which raises even more problems.

>>211428493
Are you drunk or something? They go to investigate what isn't easily understood or easily replicable BECAUSE it isn't easily understood or easily replicable. That's why it needs investigations.

>>211429026
Yeah and then it's a utopia so post-investigation the findings should be easily used to duplicate conditions. Why do you think it was an investigation target? To go and look at it and say duh then wander away, as you did in this thread?

>>211429307
They encounter shit every week that they investigate to the best of their abilities but still don't understand.

When are they going to replicate Q, haven't they scanned him with their sensors enough times? Oh, it's more complicated than that? Oh well.

>>211429391
>When are they going to replicate Q
Why would they want ANOTHER Q?

>>211424077 (OP)
How is it a copy of the memories are intact?

>>211429516
To be based.

When are they going to replicate the powers and abilities of Nagilum? He would be pretty useful against a fleet of enemy ships. When are they going to replicate the powers and abilities of Kevin Uxbridge? He could eliminate their enemies entirely.

>>211428488
>Doesn't matter, you have a persistent point of view and continuity of consciousness.
it actually matters incredibly if you have the belief that a transporter kills you, because once you get transported, your sense of continuity is disrupted, since your transported copy inherits your belief that you just died and that you are now a copy

>>211429391
you make it sound like science doesn't even matter

>>211429562
You should go watch the episode with Thomas Riker and find out.

>>211429818
What matters is the journey, not the destination. Sometimes you investigate and you're able to replicate what you investigated. Sometimes you investigate and you're not able to replicate what you investigated. The important thing is that you tried, and the real science is the friends we make along the way.

>>211429612
Because they don't want to be gods, they want to explore and develop themselves. Riker turns down Q powers and that's the moral of the episode.
The thing about star trek, especially TOS and TNG is that the people aren't supposed to be some post-singuarity ubermench. They just normal humans who have grown up in a world where everyone has learned to get along and basic needs are provided.
Its supposed to be an optimistic and hopeful setting where utopia was achieved by changing our attitudes and not what we are fundamentally.

>>211429562
because if a clone of you is made with your memories and you die, you're still dead even if the clone isn't
just because you kill the original person at the exact second the clone is made doesn't change the fact the person is dead

>>211429715
>your sense of continuity is disrupted
No it isn't (You) will feel like you stepped into a teleported, saw the glitter wipe go up, then down, then you're somewhere else. You wouldn't have any existential dread because you virtually survive even if you are "killed" which you aren't.

>>211429938
>The thing about star trek, especially TOS and TNG is that the people aren't supposed to be some post-singuarity ubermench.
So why do you dispute that sometimes they investigate strange phenomena but don't learn to understand it? They're only human, after all.

Or if you're NTA then you're jumping at the wrong post.

>>211430066
I'm not that anon. But the enterprise is one ship and they're on a mission of exploration, but they've got to start mapping a nebula next week.
They made the report to starfleet, and I'm sure they've got top men working on it.
But the transporter is usually the EZ button for fixing a lot of problems in the final act.

>>211430035
if you know you have been transported, and you have a belief that transporting kills you, then after you have been transported you will believe you are now a copy and not the original you

>>211430201
Do you think you die when you blink, or go to sleep too?

>>211430320
that anon posted a conditional so why are you bucking up on him?

>>211430320
if a person believed that they died when they blinked, then when they blinked they would believe they have died
how would you feel if you did not have breakfast this morning?

>>211430429
Well then, to take his question with all due consideration for the setting, that person probably wouldn't exist because they've solved mental illness, or you just wouldn't join slarfleet.
I mean in universe there are people who don't like transporters, McCoy, Lady McCoy, Barclay, and in enterprise they're a bit nervous the first few times because it was brand new technology. But its never any existential concerns, just more that they don't like the idea of being broken down into a million pieces.
And I stress again, in the trek universe the technology explicitly sends YOUR atoms through a transport beam. So its (You) at the other end, not a quantum doppelganger.

>>211424077 (OP)
This could be a decent premise for a sci fi plot
In the future some guy is stuck on Earth and his wife and kids are on a ship light years away. No other ships can make it there, and the only way to get there is teleportation/instant death. Should he sacrifice himself for his family?

>>211425726
No we don't you dingus. The brain never completely shuts off, even during sleep. There is no memory snapshot followed by a shutdown. In computing terms, it's "save to RAM" not "save to disk."

>>211424077 (OP)
>Transports your soul and doesnt harm you in any way

>>211432198
how can they beam up Data then?

>>211426291
People just get used to the technology once it becomes conventional. Especially after it's been around for a century or two.

Think about how we view using automobiles. We're functionally flying down the road in these steel death machines at ridiculous speeds with only the collectively agreed upon laws and courtesies keeping us from all killing each other.
To someone unfamiliar with the technology of cars, this would seem like insanity but to us it's nothing.

>>211427066
this isn't /trek/ retard, this is some autist's thread that he makes every few days. there is a /trek/ thread up though if you'd like to talk to actual fans of the show but given your tone and attitude i can imagine they dont want you there

>>211432385
Data attained a soul when he became truly sentient

>>211430926
isn't it weird how they constantly conflate "a body briefly shutting down to repair itself while keeping the mind content through dreams" with "a body being completely disassembled, turned into energy, shot across millions of kilometers through other matter to be reassembled into a replica resembling the original body"?

>>211432537
You don't dream through the entirety of your sleep. There are periods in your sleep when you have no consciousness at all.

>>211425714
Meanwhile we are having a discussion about a show from 89.

>>211432449
Oh hey, I apologize for my tone and attitude and also for mistaking this for /trek/. Sorry about all of that. But I don't see why you called me the r-word

>>211432763
Retard was created to be a more technical, less offensive medical term in an effort to replace more offensive words like "idiot" and "moron."

>>211432794
I was only mistaken, though. I'm not an idiot or a moron or retarded. You were wrong to label me as any of those, and I don't like it.

>>211425310
That episode sucked and was unbelievably stupid

>>211433048
still canon and the question stands

>>211433102
Bold of you to argue any "official canon" in a Star Trek thread in 2025.

I'm pretty sure most of the fanbase considers everything after ENT fanfiction.

>>211433102
If I don't like it then it isn't canon.

If you disagree with me then that means you think STD and STP are canon even though I don't like them.

>>211432989
shut it, retard. Intelligents are talking.

>>211425656
Is the soul blank? Like, if someone else were put through the exact same things and the exact same times as you were -- would they be "you"? Like if a Jamal had been put in a controlled environment to turn put exactly as you did. Same humor. Same thoughts. Same reasonings and rationals. Appearances aside, you cannot argue that they aren't you. They like exactly what you do. Jamal had the same 9th birthday, the same tumble that sprained your ankle, the same loving parents. You are Jamal also. Nigger.

>>211433048
My favorite episode

>>211433605
It doesn't matter if it was your "favorite episode". Regardless of your opinion, the episode was CANON and the question about it referenced in the post you're responding to STANDS. Your thoughts have no bearing on the factuality of this matter.

Beverly says it's actually closer to 12!

>>211433605
It's by far the worst Barclay episode. Him being afraid of the transporter is a great concept but they completely fucked it up with the stupid tardigrade shit.

>>211433850
No, actually "they" didn't. It's objectively a good episode

Man fuck that, one Jew gets in the beam with you and bam! You're puking acid on your bagels. No thanks.

>>211432401
I think you're right. Convenience and repetition take the weird out of almost anything. We eat grains dried out with Roundup (glyphosate), we eat seed oils and Red Dye 40, we see a majority of people struggling with weight, vast numbers getting cancer - including the young people - and the next time we go to the store we buy fried chicken and Fruit Loops for the kids.

Trek was often at its strongest when it was examining contemporary issues through a future lens and this seems like a good opportunity to explore the human disposition toward blindly trusting things that feel/taste/smell/look/sound good.

"I am aware that I am the 319th version of myself and the original is long gone. Therefore I am willing to beam down to planets with almost no reconnaissance to face chaotic demigods and see what they'll do to me. I am, like my 2025 ancestors, a living experiment."

>>211424077 (OP)
shhhh don't worry about that.

>>211435011
This seems like an obvious one to feed to the AI video generators that have have her rip off her clothes or make out with someone.

>>211426291
>>211424077 (OP)
Consciousness is functional. There is no meaningful difference between the you that enters and the you that emerges on the other side.

>>211424077 (OP)
does the teleporter teleport the poop inside of you too?
if so, is that really worth the stupendous amount of energy to do it?
if not, where does it go?

>>211435670
except for the dying part

>>211428444
>Just don't think about it bro
What my atheist friend tells me about death

Don't worry.
It will literally never be possible.
>"Duh!"
No, you actually needed a reminder. Unfurrow your brow, relax your forehead, unclench your jaw.
Worrying about such useless things takes us further from Christ and wastes our day.

>>211425656
Does that matter? Twins don't have the same soul. Whatever was destroyed by the teleporter, if it had a soul, went off to whatever. Copy has its own soul, until it does something dumb like activates a teleporter to save time.

Can it be modified so you come out a hot girl on the other end?

>>211424077 (OP)

>>211425256
There is no cloning machine in the Prestige.

>>211424077 (OP)
they wouldn't be using it if it killed the original, military ethics committee would've caught it in beta. ergo, we can assume it does not kill you

It would have gotten a R rating had they shown what happened.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ro_QpDJX-Sk&ab_channel=coke

>>211438858
If it can malfunction to bring back multiple crew members mashed together accidentally, it can definitely be modified.

>>211435219
oh no, haha, that would be gross, please don’t post that here, heh

>>211437787
Only the flesh dies

>>211424077 (OP)
It's not killing you, it's turning you into energy, then turning you back into matter.

>>211433165
>TNG episode
>After ENT
Are you braindead? All Star Trek until 2005 is canon, anything after that is slop that is fanfiction and happened in a different reality

>>211424077 (OP)
>the persistence of the self is killed every single time you go to sleep
>took 2 naps today and am about to go to bed
help what do i do

>>211426291
Consider the following.

The people of the federations are not stupider than we are, or you are. They are smarter. Everything you know about this they know and more.

Despite this there isn't even an inkling of worry about the transporters killing you (except in the 'oh the transporter failed and I died, no different to a car crash' style malfunction). None at all. Now you can either assume they're idiots who haven't considered basic information about this very common method of transport, or you can assume they show the same extreme competence towards this as they do towards every other aspect of their society.

They know everything you know, but the opposite is not true. We don't know everything about the transporter or even close.
It's somewhat meta, but we can work backwards and just say 'look, these geniuses wouldnt use this device if it just murdered them, obviously, so somehow someway it must not be murdering them'.

Yeah it should probably have been addressed, but we all know the writers of Trek are not actual superscientist geniuses and dont want to give accurate explanations which will turn out to be nonsense. If we're treating Trek as a real universe we obviously understand there are inconsistencies in the show that dont make sense; we can treat the show as an imperfect look into their world. I mean fuck we all know the transporter was actually just made to ease the creation of the show and ease transitions.

Incidentally if I was making the transporter I'd have made it more of a door in space sort of thing than this matter deconstructor beam that has caused so many problems. Still nice and easy to CGI or work around.

For all of Enterprises faults at least it attempted to save the Klingons after trekkies flanderized them to hell before the writers even got a chance to.

>>211429612
Have you ever even watched Star Trek? It is made abundantly clear that while very advanced, humanity has not solved every riddle of the universe and their entire mission is to find new shit and gain more knowledge. This is made explicit lots of times, for example:

All tech advantages from TOS to TNG.
• Transwarp (encountered officially in TNG, took Voyager a deassimilated drone and a transwarp coil heist to even start to understand it, but even future Janeway could not bring the knowledge of that with her and they had to use the borg transwarp hub)
• Warp destroying the fabric of space (TNG S5 iirc), took Starfleet a few years to come up with the new nacelle design first seen in the Intrepid-Class
• Holodeck technology went from being very new and limited to special rooms to full-ship emitters and real holographic life with rights within a decade

>>211442039
>The people of the federations are not stupider than we are, or you are. They are smarter. Everything you know about this they know and more.
The people of the federation are also willing to die for the greater good, and do so all the time. It's not a stretch to understand that they are aware that the teleporters kill them, but then simply act like the individuals that have been killed a hundred times are still them because it is part of their macroethical culture to believe so. It's the uniform. It's the evolution of humanity. It's Star Trek Voyager where Tuvix is killed for wanting to live, which disgusted everyone on the crew, and Harry Kim's alternate universe counterpart completely replacing Harry Kim and literally nobody acknowledges he's not the same Harry Kim. The Identity of the Individual has been shifted to be a complete Ethics construct in the future and so the life of the being, the consciousness of the being, and the continuity of the being are no longer necessary for the Individual to be manifest, because the Federation takes care of that. The Federation knows who you are, so you don't need to be. Get in the teleporter Shinji.

>>211427066
>Doctor M'Benga preserved his daughter using the same technique, so that's false. I wonder if you're even aware of the actual canon of Star Trek?
The actual prime universe canon of Star Trek ended with ENT in 2005. Nothing after that counts, as it is not made in Roddenberry’s spirit, completely contradicts logic and established canon in humungous ways and is generally considered dreck.
Post 2005 Star Trek all happens in alternate universes and thus is not part of the prime universe, no matter how retards like you or JJ Abrahams, Robert Orci or Alex Kurtzman rail against this idea (which was officially established in TNG’s Parallels, btw.)

So yeah, SNW is canon, but not canon to the prime universe. It takes place in an alternate universe and has no impact on the reality shown in TOS, TNG, DS9, VOY and ENT

>>211435780
>does the teleporter teleport the poop inside of you too?
>if so, is that really worth the stupendous amount of energy to do it?
>if not, where does it go?
It does. It would require more energy to separate the poo (and only the poo, you really don’t want to lose your ~100 billion good bacteria in your gut) from you and send it to a second destination.

>>211442150
>Holodeck technology went from being very new and limited to special rooms to full-ship emitters and real holographic life with rights within a decade
This is another point. Machines, even holograms, changelings like Odo become "appointed" with identity and anthropocised in order to bring them into the social construction of the Federation and its values. We know that Odo is not a man, he's a blob. We know that the EMH is just a program, and when he glitches out everyone realises he's a fucking program and they fix him the way someone would fix a program, but then they go on pretending to treat him like a sentient being. And don't get me started on Data the fucking toaster being given human rights simply because the alternative would be to open a loophole toward the disenfranchisement of minorities or something equally stupid.
Is it really so far fetched to believe that the Federation and its people don't acknowledge that they are being killed and cloned by teleporters considering all the other lengths their vile and insidious society tries to convince itself that it is a perfect eudaimonic utopia where every individual is a self-actualised being with fundamental rights? The meme they have fostered could and would be far more significant to the continuation of the Federation than the physical survival of any individual.

The dumbest facet of Starfleet is the fact anyone signs up.

We can already see it in the modern day, if you give the proles enough bread and circuses, they give up on life. Why sign up to go explore the stars and die horribly when you can send a drone to do it while you live in a holodeck fantasy of getting sucked off all day by catgirls?

>>211442544
The people who sign up for Starfleet are the ones who want to escape the proles and be around other non-proles. They're just like me.

>>211427758
Teleporter has redundant pattern buffers that are destroyed after successful transport. The interference on the planet prevented the ship's computer from sending a "transfer complete" signal, so Thomas Riker was reconstituted from the buffer.

not much different than real life, every 'frame' of our reality (whether you measure that a second or nanosecond) your conscious self dies and is instantly recreated by a new guy who has all your memories, but he only experiences one frame before the next one over and over. ive died like 30 times typing this

>>211441978
I'm pretty sure he meant chronologically

>>211442673
Particle recombination events happen much faster than that. You've actually died an infinite number of times since you posted this, on a quantum level.

>>211435670
if your consciousness is what takes decisions then having it replaced by a different consciousness is definitely something that could affect the actions "you" take.

>>211424077 (OP)
>kills you and creates a copy
- I change the code to swap my shirt colour with the captain's.
- Profit

>>211442039
I'm more comfortable with the notion that we almost only see the explorers, warriors, and frontiersmen. These people could not sit still in paradise. In the shows (real trek, nothing made after Enterprise) they have an almost religious fervor for their roles: settlers get *super* attached to the act of settling and Starfleet members regard the uniform as an icon of veneration. Again: they could just chill on Earth or some colony world and spend their days eating organic food and letting androids clean up behind them in their daily holodeck orgy. These are the people who leave a life of ease to put their lives in extreme danger.

The Trek galaxy is a horror show, arguably as bad as the 40k universe, and these people choose it. It seems reasonable that these are not the sort of people who are overly sentimental about their selfish experiences; they're sort of serving a holy purpose. They want a place in history that matters and perhaps look at their siblings on Earth as decadent.

>>211442156
I like this. We have to look at these people as very different from what we are. That was actually baked into Roddenberry's idea to an extent and he fought for it and Berman largely continued it. These humans are different than we are and serve a collectivist ideal. If the job requires going into the murder box to increase efficacy then that is what it takes.

>>211442544
have you even watched trek? like 90% of the characters bitch about how nasty replicated slop is compared to the "real deal". beside that, the people who sign up are the same kind of weirdos who go cavediving in tiny holes.

there's like 20+ billion humans in trek alone. starfleet barely has a million people out of 50+ civilizations chipping in

>>211425256
i dont understand the prestige

only watched tng and ds9, enjoyed tng more. where do i go from here?

>>211442271
I'd settle for the transporter cleaning my shart stains and piss dribbles

A copy of you on the atomic level is you.

>>211424077 (OP)
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wh-ZcdO5fe8
Just shows that SMAC is better science fiction than trek. Miriam recognized the folly of teleportation.

>>211444597
No, you'd be destroyed, regardless of what happens elsewhere. Someone just like you would still be around, but he'd lack your conciousness.

You don't actually exist. You are a different person every second the same way a teleporter works.

>>211445682
>SMAC is better science fiction than trek
lmao ofc it is, star trek is moral fables and adventure, not hard sci fi. It took until DS9 and Voyager for the fault-side of new man "idealism" to be even partially exposed for the macroethical empire-building utilitarianism that it is, because Roddenberry had just wanted a pure moral superiority with no caveats instead. The man obviously was made of the same convictions as hard-line fundamentalist conservatives, just in the opposite direction. Be made moral or be judged.

>>211425235
Lots of people parrot that shit.
I was having discussions about it like a retard with a few of these people because I thought that they were viewing it from a philosophical macro angle of "if it's an exact copy of you it still is you" but after a while I realized they were just unable to comprehend the reality of the thought experiment that you willingly cease to exist.
There were no examples of "how do you know you don't die every time you go to sleep" or "all human cells are replaced in x years so you're basically not the same person", they were unable to comprehend the continuity of consciousness probably because it's hard to conceptualize.

Why do retards try to argue about this shit when souls, energy beings and high plane existence all canonically exist in Star Trek? Teleporters don't kill you.

>>211425748
>time slows down but electric signals somehow move normal
doubt.jpg

>>211445863
>Teleporters don't kill you.
By definition they do.

>>211425690
Incorrect. A copy of you is not you and memory divergence begins immediately. "You" doesnt continue for YOU. "You" continues for everyone else. YOU, at worst, go back the state you were in before your first memory. Like dreamless sleep as the eons pass. Otherwise it's heaven, hell, Valhalla, whatever you want to call it.

>>211440906
Yes there is.

>>211424077 (OP)
There is a cool episode that could made out of this idea. But it was never done.

>>211445812
>"how do you know you don't die every time you go to sleep"
This is the real answer to the teleporter problem. You do die every time you go to bed, but what are you going to do, stop sleeping? You can't, just like people in the star trek world can no longer live without the comfort of teleportation.

>>211425220

the fact the destruction of the original object placed in a replicator "teleporter" is optional and done voluntarily just to keep the LARP that it's actual transport alive is funny

fabrication is not a portal, and all we'd really do with an IRL replicator device is enrich our lives + colonise space much easier

>>211446264
Not comparable at all. Your body remains completely intact while sleeping. Teleportation in Star Trek completely takes apart your body down to the atomic level and reassembles you somewhere else.
Sleeping obviously doesn't kill you and recreate a perfect copy.

The real issue with teleporters is that they kill people.

Why can't you just "teleport" over a copy? Then when he's done with your mission he can just live there forever or blow his own brains out or something. Why are all starfleet personnel opting to kill themselves constantly?

>>211445712
False, a jigsaw puzzle doesn't become something qualitatively different when it's dis- and reassembled. "you" are a bunch of pieces that have an emergent property called consciousness. That property does not disappear or change just because your pieces were temporarily reorganized

>>211445949
OM is you. Divergence occurs with every decision-fork. OM piloting the copy is indeed you. You are the incorrect one. I was not incorrect. You should not have stated that I was incorrect when you were the one who is incorrect.

>>211447307
Except that property literally does disappear between the point of deconstruction and reconstruction. That's the entire contention of this topic.

>>211424077 (OP)
they should've explored gestalt consciousness / hive minds with this plot device.
like, what if you used the teleporters to clone people and the people all had the same will of the original person that was copied in the pattern buffer?
missed sci-fi opportunity

>>211447622

>>211447486
>Except that property literally does disappear between the point of deconstruction and reconstruction
It does not. The property that is "you" is not only emergent but latent in "your" material arrangement. A momentary discontinuity cannot disrupt a property of that sort. The issue is that "you" think of consciousness as primary and the material as secondary; that isn't so.

>>211447307
High Jewish verbal IQ - cannot abstract concepts - can rephrase incorrect ideas beautifully and convincingly - thinks whoever phrases something best is correct - invents novel words/phrases to this end
>>211447486
Goyish high general intelligence - abstracts concepts quickly and succinctly - gets to the point - intuits the deeper reality - what’s true is true

>>211424077 (OP)
What happens if religion is real, though? I mean, let's say Christianity is correct. Does the original soul go to heaven/hell, while the clone gets a new soul? Or does the soul jump to the clone?

>>211424077 (OP)
No, you are wrong. It just teleports you.

>>211447669
I know you're trying to do the word salad contrarianism to bait, but it's a bit obvious.
Consciousness requires a functioning brain to exist. This requirement clearly isn't met when the atoms that form your brain are separated from one another, making your brain cease to exist.

>>211426291
Are you retarded? The transporter doesn't actually create a copy. The matter is actually transferred to the destination and reassembled.

Gay nerds. Is there an episode where they beam nukes or bullets into people's brains or militarize the technology? Any land combat at least would be solved if you can just instantly teleport room-sized anything to the enemy with a range of tens of thousands of kilometers, especially if the enemy doesn't have a transporter. They couldn't do shit if you can beam metal plates in front of incoming missiles, etc.
From what I've seen of the show, they mostly just use it to do karate.

>>211447926
They teleport bombs onto unshielded ships, things like that, yes. There is also a sniper rifle that transports its round to target in an episode.

ITT: People who don't watch a show asserting their headcanon which directly contradicts said show that they don't watch.

>>211447947
Well yeah, this thread was made by some guy butthurt he didn't get the /trek/ OP so he thought he'd split the traffic in the general with this bait shit, sooo...

>>211439250
>"What if I die and get to heaven but my spot is already taken?"

>>211447926
A gun that uses a microtransporter to beam the bullet through walls and then carries on with its original velocity
>>211447945

>>211447775
You aren't comprehending. Consciousness is not a state; it does not cease to be. It resides in matter and manifests under certain configurational conditions. "you" are the recursive glimmer of that manifestation. "you" can be halted and resumed.

>>211426291
There is a whole episode where Barkley is scared to use the transporter, right?

>>211448942
There was an unfortunate accident

>'accidentally' swaps you into deanna's body

o-oh no haha

>>211447622
>what if you used the teleporters to clone people and the people all had the same will of the original person that was copied in the pattern buffer?
Then they would all be a continuation of the You the moment you used the machine.

>>211438739
but when you die, your soul teleports to heaven so this discussion matters

This is a meme perpetuated by people who’ve never watched the show, that is contradicted by the show and movies numerous times.

>>211425235
Well since hes a step dad hes obviously ok with being a cuck so no surprise there

>>211451197
Not exactly.
What if we shared the same will; connected.
We are assuming that our clones are all independently willed, but what if that assumption is wrong. What if your clones are also YOU; like you can control them. We never really explored this possibility in consciousness before and just assumed that a clone would be his own person (probably because of Enlightenment aesthetic thinking).

>>211450646
I like when Jellico tells her to put a fucken a shirt on.

>>211445392
underrated

>>211451490
They are running a ship, not a brothel.

>>211451378
if you actually watched the show then you would know the in universe science is inconsistent and contradictory you fake poser nerd

>>211445392
the illusory death portal is a messed up dark concept.
>"come to heaven anon, right through this portal! look!"
>instant death
>don't even have time to experience what is occuring/your own death
grim

>>211424077 (OP)
converts you to energy and beams you. The other side is the same energy/matter. Transporter clones are caused by excess energy but there is always the orignal matter.

>>211451626
how many people used the teleport, disintegrated, and didn't get rematerialized for whatever reason?
from their perspective, it was just instant death/non-existence.

>>211433314
A perfect copy is practically impossible because theres randominity and uncertainty but even if it were possible its still exists at a different locus in space so obviously isnt you

>>211447775
>>211445712
What if you were put under anesthesia before entering the transporter?

>>211451716
probability travel makes more sense.
but that's limited by your light-cone; the idea being that your net wave function extends around you in a radius of potentiality.
you just have to convince the Universe that you should be somewhere else rather than where you are; that it's MORE probable to observe you at X than Y.

>>211432606
It doesnt matter, your brains existence is one long chemical reaction that isnt interrupted until you die. It maintains coherence whether or not you are conscious, that only implies that conciousness is a secondary process

>>211451853
think of it as minor omni-presence.
perhaps something innate that is yet untapped in Humanity

>>211446406
>Geordie's only arc is that he's a virgin loser who can't get pussy
>Only mentions having a kid at the very last episode, decades later
>Even Data got more pussy than Geordie
Why was the show so cruel to him?

>>211451631
Do you unironically believe that matter has anything to do with identity? Like you need some particular carbon atoms in your brain for you to be you?

>>211451600
Nope.

>>211451989
who tf cares about pussy?

>>211452074
Geordi did, is that even a real question?

>>211452052
you lost, delete your 4chan account

>>211452024
Who cares? Just explaining that the Star Trek transporter is no different than walking across a room.

>>211451448
That's like saying you're able to control your twin. The consciousnesses are in different bodies without some magical connection between them. They experience reality separately. Lots of retarded shit in this thread. Or dude, maybe we're all connected and everything is one :o

>>211442036
Its not killed, your consciousness just takes a napvat the same time. Consciousness is like the mirror that your self uses to fix it's hair

>>211451792
>What if i killed you twice?

>>211440906
don't you remember that part where one of the characters finds all the bodies of the clones?

>>211442039
What are you talking about? There a bunch of pacifist goys who cant handle moral dilemmas and would easily be conquered if it werent for plot armor. Picard wouldn't even kil a giant murder crystal

why does this thought exercise spook midwits or subwits so much ?

consider that we're already in a digital simulation (mathematically absolutely certain). every single computational tick you get rewritten, in effect copied and pasted. you're only "you" for one single game tick. it has always been like this. for all your ancestors too

>>211444597
have a teleport make a copy instead of transport. Which one is you?

>>211452726
*cut and pasted
>>211452728
they're both you to an equal extent

>>211452411
No. I'm pretty specific.
You clone yourself and it's you.
How would you experience that double consciousness?

>>211452770
>they're both you to an equal extent
Which one do you control?

>>211425690
this. most people don't have the philosophy literacy to realize it though
>>211445949
(you) is the sum total of all your particles. if you recreate the bunch of particles in another space, that is you.

>>211452880
Neither. (You) is a temporal construct not in control of any future self.

>>211447926

>>211452950
Explain

>>211452726
>dude god isn’t real but we’re a simulation lmao

>>211426291
it's a plot point for a while in ENT
>>211453076
yes ?
if ur religious then dying and being replaced by a copy shouldn't matter

>>211439250
>be retarded brain damaged robot who thinks he can rock paper scissors his copies for control
>robot scientist constantly tells him hes an idiot and thats not how it works
>entire fanbase still believes in the coinflip

>>211453126
>if ur religious then dying and being replaced by a copy shouldn't matter
Except that its suicide?

>>211426291
>>211453126
Dont forget about Thomas Riker

>>211453036
Does your 12 year old self have control over you now?

Let's say Bob enters a cloning machine at 12:00PM. Bob1 and Bob2 both trace their identity to Bob before 12:00PM, but neither are controlled by him.

>>211424077 (OP)
what happens to the soul?

>>211452155
yes anoness, it was a real question

>>211453411
So how long do you exist for a planck unit of time? How do you form a thought in that window of time, can you even? Is there any difference between this belief and simply denying the existence of consciousness

>>211452819
You wouldn't. He's a new human and there's no reason why you would have access to his consciousness. Conscious beings act like they're separate entities, because that's how they experience the world, even if you believe that in reality there's some spiritual connection between everything. It makes no functional difference because consciousnesses are locked away from each other. Your clone would just experience his own.

>>211452981
?

>>211453779
>So how long do you exist for a planck unit of time? How do you form a thought in that window of time, can you even?
I don't know.
>Is there any difference between this belief and simply denying the existence of consciousness
Certainly, this belief just attributes consciousness to the functions being performed by the brain rather than treating the matter of the brain as the seat of consciousness.

Greg Egan solved this in Learning to be me, good short story.
It really doesnt matter. Both mind uploads and beaming kill you and make a copy, you're forever dead the moment you use it but the comforts of the tech make it be worth it. I expect most people would have no problem with it given enough time.

>>211454279
No, if you do not exist for a window of time long enough to chemically produce qualia you are denying the existence of consciousness (or appealing to metaphysics). Any length longer than min-planck will be arbitrarily chosen so obv its a wrong theory

>>211454826
>being dead makes it worth a copy of yourself being comfortable

bros why do we have a sensation of consciousness at all? why aren't we all just automata? all we are is protons, neutrons and electrons, the same matter as unthinking rocks

>>211454871
Read the story, in fact Egan's view and a view of the mind is that, after you do it, the copy is as a valid. Sure, it's not you but it's a person on it's own right. There will always be a gap but from the viewpoint of others and from goals, there's no difference, the pattern matters and not which instance. it felt gross at first but I agree with it now.

>>211454954
>but from the viewpoint of others and from goals, there's no difference
yes, but you are still a person who died and if you understand this fact you would rightfully be terrified of mind uploads and beaming, because it will kill you even if no one else will care that you're dead just because a perfect copy has replaced you
if you have a set of identical twins and one of them dies, they die for real, even if no one cares because there's still a copy

>>211454889
Probably because it's an evolutionary advantage over plants and shit.

>>211455064
I more than understand that, it's death for you, I do not believe consciousness would transfer at all but then again maybe consciousness and the self aren't really real. Once more, the short story I loved it and I love to shill it but that comes up, a lot.
It is true, if I got beamed to X planet or ship or I got a mind upload, it would kill me, it's like in pantheon, does this look like it survives? https://youtu.be/YE49pA_eDX0
But you're either going to embrace the potential of the technology and all it brings or live scared of it, if you do it just once, it's over why not again? Take advantage. I would do it personally.

>>211454889
its a feedback loop of being aware of being aware

>>211455181
>>211455064
With this I finally understood the mindset because I gained the mindset. People who would join the federation and such on star trek would already have made peace with it mostly, I mean, you're going to die either way.

So you either live scared of a mind upload or beaming, or accept that you're gonna die anyways so might as well get over it soon.

>>211454853
So once again, does your 12 year old self have control over you now?

>>211455778
Yes, because determinism is inescapable and QM is lies

>>211453780
That's my point.
How would you how this metaphysically plays out? You're making assumptions of what should be rather than what is. It's your belief that's what would happen. I notice you're even emotionally invested into it and upset with me that I challenge your phenomenology.

>>211455893
Determinism would state that you have control over nothing

>>211456080
The state of configuration at 12 determined what you do today

>>211455778
There is no 12 year old self, it was me then and its me now, we are contiguous

>>211454889
The only reason you think particles are mundane is because you were told that. Do.you know dead space lore where specific patterns are metaphysical?

>>211456394
>do i know video game lore
No.

>>211456244
But that's true for the clone too.

>>211456416
Yeah well its the most accessible.version of the idea i can think of for weekend 4channers.

>>211456073
What reason is there to think that somehow cloning would cause you to share consciousness with another separate being who just happens to be identical to you? It's not something that ever happens otherwise. I guess you share your consciousness with several parts of your brain, but how could that physically happen with a separate entity? Would there be a range? You're not going to see through his eyes any more than you're going to see through your eyes if you cut your visual cortex off and place it on the table.

>>211442754
>having it replaced by a different consciousness
that doesn't happen, did you read the post?
>There is no meaningful difference between the you that enters and the you that emerges

>>211454954
i've read permutation city, which is operating off the same premise, except no one dying. its also heavily ripped off by soma. i understand the premise/concept better than you do. you're just skipping over the most important part. sure the copies will be fine just being copies until they need to be copied again, and society as a whole would function without a hitch, as each copy would have the illusion of a contiguous stream of consciousness, they just need to ignore the whole bit about needing to be okay with oblivion at pretty much any time.

none of this is relevant to star trek, of course. as its transporter technology is explicitly stated to directly convert matter to energy, in a setting drafting off "new age" schools of thought, that eventually humans will evolve into being pure energy by default.

>>211456817
>each copy would have the illusion of a contiguous stream of consciousness
did you actually read the book? one of the points is precisely that copies don't experience any illusion, that their conciousness is exactly as real as the original one. you know the part where the copy is running on distributed hardware over different servers and at different time frames, but it's irrelevant to his experience

>they just need to ignore the whole bit about needing to be okay with oblivion at pretty much any time.
this is true, but it's inherent to all conscious beings. the only difference with the originals is that they are not aware of it because they don't understand the hardware they are running on unlike the copy

>>211457238
>its not an illusion because the copies don't consider it an illusion

permutation city has a guy interacting with his own copy and just being exhausted by how the copy can't comprehend the idea that because he isn't programmed to feel anything when he's deleted, diced up so his consciousness can be emulated non-linearly, etc. he doesn't.

this doesn't change the fact every time the copy stops being run, its gone. doesn't matter if it feels it or not, its the reality of the situation, and something most of egan's characters in the situation choose to ignore.

>>211424077 (OP)
It's fictional technology.

t. Threadwinner

>>211456450
OM driver is the only thing determining agency

There's a lot more to this than just the idea of destruction and reassembly elsewhere, at even a slightly later moment.

If you walk across the room, you are in a real sense transporting a pattern, but you shouldn't think of the room as some separate non-player arena. The locomotion we're so used to implies a state change across all knowable vectors i.e. 3 directions of "space" and one seemingly quantifiable metric of state change or "time."

Without getting to far into the weeds, what the teletransporter does in contingent upon what it means to faithfully scan and reproduce. It could be that in scanning, which if it were to capture your pattern exactly, spatial temporal location aside, there may be some imposition on the intervening space between you and the "destination." The question really hinges on how this would work.

>>211453588
You need the soul download patch

>>211457957
the "weeds" your in basically amount to
>if we copied someone perfectly and instantly destroyed them their consciousness would get confused and mistake the new body for the original

>>211458056
>if we copied someone perfectly and instantly destroyed them
No. That's not at all what I'm saying. You have to give "destruction" the spotlight, and you need a fleshed-out conception of scanning.

>>211425748
There was a decent Stephen King short story called “The Jaunt” that is basically about this. People are sedated before teleporting and the twist is finding out what happens when people teleport when conscious.

>>211458243
>Stephen King
stopped reading there. the only thing less interesting than stephen king is pussy

>>211425748
You would need a future series of robust brain states to even know you're in agony or to express negative valence over time as a concept.
You really need to be embodied across time to say "ouch!"

>>211458243
I love The Jaunt because it betrays King's deep understanding of the subjective vs objective.

>>211458201
>That's not at all what I'm saying.
It is, you just don't really understand the subject.

>>211458302
I figured a fag like you would be all over King? Or are you a transbian?

>>211458551
gay sex is gross bro. just enlightened

>>211458606
Asexual and an aversion to pussy makes you a genetic dead-end and evolutionary aberration. It’s not enlightened it’s a sign of a wrecked endocrine system.

>>211458697
now you understand why he's a technophile who believes in digital immortality

The conversation about destruction and reassembly is usually curtailed by our day to day experiences with such concepts. We can easily see the problem with popular discussion, its akin to me having a baseball, and you sitting on the other side of the room.

If I merely toss it over, that's a familiar motion through space-time, and we all agree the baseball in your hands deserves a 1:1 self-same identity with the one that recently left mine.

The trouble starts if we consider this; Instead of throwing you the ball, I meticulously destroy it nearly atom by atom while shouting over to you, at a workstation of baseball-making materials, instructions to reassemble a new one to a sufficiently exact degree. Then our common sense tells us this is of course not the same baseball, and the identity of the first ball is important in a relation we should not respect.

The rub is how far the needle goes towards tossing the ball and how far toward merely mailing the blueprint and starting over with new materials.
We all just sort of default to classic swampman, but think more like Ghost In The Shell, or "bit by bit."

>>211458697
donated sperm for two decades as it's easy money so not really

>>211456558
It's not the absurd a premise. It's kinda been explored in other scifi but not too deeply: like in comic books with Multiple Man (Jamie Madrox) or Dupli-Kate. Or Ghost in The Shell which titularly deals with this issue bigtime (i.e. why a ghost/consciousness can't occupy multiple shells/bodies). Then you got shows like Severance explores reintegrating two separate consciousnesses into one person.
So it's a legit metaphysical topic of exploration when it comes to the mind/body question.

Do you remember the moment between going to bed and starting to dream? No? How do you know "you" didn't die yesterday and aren't just waking up with a new consciousness with the same memories?

>>211457957
Lol, are you comparing walking around to teleportation that violates the uncertainty principle?

>>211458811
digital immortality is a simple fact of reality. it isn't for the likes of you or that guy, though - you're too entranced by primitive nerve stimulation (and are so insecure that you have to call anyone who doesn't worship pussy down). you aren't any different from drug addicts

>>211435011
cmon bro

>>211459527
>are you comparing walking around to teleportation that violates the uncertainty principle?
No. I'm identifying walking as what it actually is, the path carved through a space-time bulk with (You)-like characteristics.
No uncertainty to be discussed yet, unless you have some very specific mechanism for teleportation in mind.

>>211459711
Kek whatever rationalizes you spending double-digit hours behind a screen as your world closes in, your rut deepens and your chance of success in this life becomes more and more fleeting amirite?

Hitting buttons for brief dopamine bursts via pixel changes is infinitely worse than stimulation through sex and other tangible experiences. Even a chicken hitting a button for a treat is better than your pixel-based lifestyle. It’s the most pathetic waste of time and you can try to rationalize it to me but I know that you have nights where you question your life choices and make grand plans to change things around only to wake up the next afternoon and go back to the same inane monotony.

>>211459979
you're projecting - what you've said has nothing to do with my actual lifestyle

>>211460020
>projecting
>”I know you are but what am I”
Really?

>>211460045
those allegations weren't based in evidence, so where else did they come from?

>>211446264
Look at this pleb, he can't even dream lucidly

>>211446870
>Teleportation in Star Trek completely takes apart your body down to the atomic level and reassembles you somewhere else.
So then it kills you and then brings you back to life

>>211446870
>takes apart your body down to the atomic level and reassembles you

In theory then you could use a telepad to rejuvenate failing or damaged organs, bones, nervous system etc.. all you'd have to do is link it into a replicator. You could literally use it to keep you forever young.

>>211459711
you're reminding me of pictures for sad children, there's a lost arc/sequence of comics where two people like you end up in hell, except hell is just a mediocre hotel in Argentina with spotty wifi, and the rational being allowing people like you to continue your existence as it is is a worse punishment than anything even God can come up with.

>>211460395
Pulaski did it by filtering through a previous transporter trace.

>>211460449
How did they heal Worfs spine again? I forget didn't they do something with the teleporter?

>>211460432
oh wow tell me more about some comic references you think about when losing in arguments online, it's truly interesting

>>211457924
Explain

>>211458056
>>211458485
The weeds you're in amount to consciousness being a tangible thing that resides in your brain.

>>211459711
real or not, you won't experience it. a copy of you will.

>>211460395

>>211460489
Killed him and plopped a new spine in or something then he revived

>>211460502
No one lost an argument with you. Your beliefs are motivated and you discard any rebuttal because you don't want them to be true. You are literally in a state of worship for technology. Its sad.

>>211460605
consciousness is an emergent function of your brain

>>211460633
The copy is me.

>>211460759
making a litany of false irrelevant claims in response to my posts and then citing webcomics for ad hom isn't an embarrassing display of losing?

>no episode where everyone who was teleported might be possessed by outer demons of the void

>>211460800
Not quite, identity is an emergent function of consciousness but consciousness is fundamental.

But either way, the brain is still just the material. Consciousness isn't something it has, it's something it does.

if the transporter malfunctions and creates a clone of you would you fuck yourself

>>211425152
can't have crash-outs in outer space. The pattern buffer removes negative memories as easily as it can rewrite DNA.

>>211460896
It's actually a function of the thetan. The MEST body is a necessary anchor, for some uses, but consciousness is thetanic. There's a lot of literature on this.

>>211425256
the original didn't die by the teleporter though

>>211460896
Now you’re just being semantic with very vaguely defined terms

>>211460812
It’ll think it is. You’ll be dead.

>>211461145
Ok how about this.

There's a cloning machine that works by breaking a person down atom by atom and recreating two of them. The catch is that one of them is created using the atoms from the original and the other is created from new atoms.

You use the machine. Are either of them you?

If the answer is neither, then we are attributing your identity only to the continuous stream of consciousness and anything that upsets that stream, like anesthesia or dreamless sleep, constitutes death.

If the answer is that the one made of the original atoms is you, then we are attributing some special significance to the material that I don't think can be justified.

So the answer must be both.

>>211460896
This is starting to sound like weak theory of mind, where you see a distinction between awareness of self and the self.

>>211461260
No, a meatbag will be dead.

>>211455181
>>211455289
Thank you for manifesting the belief system that I believe the people in the show hold. They are half way There is a path in Star Trek from amino acids to amoeba to rudimentary mammals to solipsistic apemen determined above everything to perpetuate their genomes...and omniscient energy beings. The Q made that pretty clear. I think you did a good job showing how that mentality would look.

Along the way humanity will have to sacrifice the need for a body and uninterrupted existence as a contiguous entity. Transporter tech, mind-transfers into androids, and other consciousness-transferring technologies are required steps in adapting to this new notion of existence.

>>211461627
>then we are attributing your identity only to the continuous stream of consciousness and anything that upsets that stream, like anesthesia or dreamless sleep, constitutes death.
Yes. Some people really hate the basic reality that they die every night, but it's a facet of being human. Our consciousness is a flawed byproduct of natural selection, which is why it's ephemeral and in the morning my corpse will awaken and mistakenly believe that it's still me.

>>211461845
Do you attribute this only to gaps in the stream or is your identity something constantly replaced moment by moment?

>>211458485
No, its really not.

If you have a very specific mechanism in mind, like destruction and reassembly elsewhere by some terribly lossy transmission, then yes. (You) ended at some point in the mapping/scanning/retrieval/whatever stage, it does not matter what history the thing on the other side maintains.

I'm speaking of total signal preservation, so that (You) experience nothing but a state change without severing your metabolically intact worldline. Conventional travel, more or less, just slightly less bounded.

Its interesting Egan was discussed because he posits this form of travel, or something like it, in Schild's Latter, where you are transmitted and reconstituted but in such a way as to reconstitute the original, not just build a copy from instructions.
This is how humans travel the universe bound by light speed.

>>211460850
You’ve displayed technophilia, got called on it, and then got pissy, because your beliefs are being questioned and you don’t have a real response to those questions.

You read a short story by a guy who also wants to just ignore death and took it to heart. He’s written a bunch of books about the subject, using both quantum mechanics and technology as ways to just make death irrelevant. The closest to questioning this is a copy being ran after explicitly stating she wanted no copy to ever be run of her, and just kinda having to accept her new existence in like five lines of text.

>>211462102
No, I think it's a continuous process the rest of the time, but sleep doesn't hit the necessary minimums to count as continuation.

>>211460939
We'd be fucking and sucking within five minutes, because each of us would know that it's what we would want to do.

>>211461845
You have yet to suffer cascading metabolic failure in such a way as irrevocably destroy (You), it doesn't matter how hard you sleep, the hardware running (You) has suffered no irretrievable loss.

"You die every time you sleep" is sort of like discussing flat earth in philosophy of consciousness. Sort of like "all you neurons are replaced every 7 years," betrays a fairly pathetic understanding of the subject.

>>211461627
>we are attributing your identity only to the continuous stream of consciousness
Logic break
>and anything that upsets that stream, like anesthesia or dreamless sleep, constitutes death.

In the logic break you attribute characteristics to sleep and unconsciousness that neither have, a complete cessation of all neural function, brain death, which has never once been reversed.

>>211462362
none of that is true. i think you're confusing me for some other poster.

>>211461672
Yes. The only you that will ever exist.

>>211459352
kids like that dont go on to have thriving families of their own and end up childless adults

>>211462871
>I didn’t cite Greg Egan

k

>>211462978
any data for that?

>>211463008
i'm aware of egan but did not cite him itt. cool that we agree

>>211462960
Nah.
>>211462437
Why? What makes the you from 20 minutes ago significant to you now in a way that the you from 20 days ago isn't?

>>211462507
hoe or homo?

>>211463091
real life, you might get lucky a little but kids without fathers reproduce much less, and any kids they have are low fertility as well
kids growing up with mentally ill mommies that resorted to sperm donations are just immediately handicapped out the gate for reproductive success
if you're asexual and resorted to sperm donation you're also probably carrying a fair amount of genes for schizophrenia and your kids will schizo out

>>211463352
no data then, just speculation. stop running your suck, that's going to get you in trouble irl

>>211462623
Ok, so you're attributing your identity to brain activity even if that brain activity is not conscious. Why exactly?

>>211463008
I cited Egan, Schild's Ladder, only because the thread was getting a little too Permutation City.
You would be amazed at how often this comes up in academic circles. Sci-fi can serve as an example but should never be used as a roadmap.
Good hard sci-fi done correctly is just a more fleshed-out thought experiment.

The best of sci-fi example of where someone like Chalmers sits currently is Ghost In The Shell, or bit by bit, the realistic way of not just killing one thing and making another. It works through mimicking the same straightforward motion across time and space as simply walking, or really just sitting completely still, which is impossible in a relative framework.

Basically you sit while the smallest unit allowable is replaced, hence the "bit by bit," maybe even on to a more endurant substrate. The technopians make it their mission to goon over this, but its a sound model from a reductive phyicialist's perspective. I'm not a fan.

>>211463468
you know you're mentally ill and that it's not a recipe for genetic success
your over intellectualization and "muh data" is part of your cope
you don't even know if your sperm is being used, you're coping with a pure gamble, the only real way to know if you've reproduced is if you pump up a girl yourself

>>211463691
do you know the requirements for sperm donation? they don't let mentally ill people do it. so, you're just wrong - but are you going to continue to adjust your argument so that you can continue to be right in your mind, or will you accept the reality that i won this argument?

>>211463575
See >>211461631

>>211463825
you're an asexual, so you're most likely a schizoid who wouldn't even interface with the mental health system to get diagnosed with anything in the first place.
you're mentally ill, you're not asexual, you just jack off to porn a ton. Stop jacking off and you'll stop being asexual
also i'm glad you've conceded you don't even know if your sperm is being used

>>211463835
What is the self?

>>211463927
you're the only one who's asserted that i'm asexual based on the fact that i don't worship pussy, and you're making several assumptions without evidence which frankly are very cringe. why are you talking about jacking off, being asexual, avoiding mental health care, etc? i categorized this as projection before - can you give some more insight about why you're making these claims?

>>211463575
Not him but I would have to say the potential for future states. Even when you nope out while performing a task and seemingly record no conscious self-reflective activity, we don't say you died and were born anew when regaining yourself.

You know who writes to no end about this shit? Metzinger. Everyone should check out "Being No One."

>>211464032
you talk like an asexual intellectualizing schizoid and you haven't even denied it
go on and deny it, lie anonymously to me, lie to a stranger and lie to yourself, you can just choose to close the thread, but please go ahead and lie on the record just so you can tell yourself you won against an anonymous stranger

>>211463944
The awareness of being aware.

>>211464131
Ok, so why does an unaware brain maintain the self?

>>211425690
Can I use this to shape to universe to my will with strong enough resolve to kill myself at every inconvenience?

>>211464131
I would call that an aspect of the self-model. For one thing its a gradient, not a binary. We just sort form the on/off distinction at a later time, which is what makes death such a thorny topic.

>>211464116
you want me to either acknowledge that the evidence-free allegations you've spewed are valid or to go away? what about other options? can you conceive of any other options?

>>211424077 (OP)
they've dispensed with philosophy in the future and everyone is a full-blown technocrat.

>>211459783
she kinda looks sad here like she knows her sexy body is fully on display, she's basically a porn star at this point.

>>211464217
Because memory doesn’t stop existing just because you’re not conscious, and is recorded even when you’re not conscious. Because the present is an illusion.

>>211464457
Like Terry Farrel after her, she wasn't hired for her range.

>>211464292
Under MWI you can't really successfully suicide. Unless you whittle down available universes I guess

>>211451989
He was kind of an asshole, he lorded it up over other characters frequently and wouldn't hesitate to overlook double standards on his part

>>211464292
If you killed yourself often enough you might not be left with a universe you like?

>>211452074
pussy is still good in the future

>>211464525
No, not under MWI but specifically the speculative framework of QI. There's nothing in many worlds that guarantees a robust timeline going forward, you need to add a trick.

>>211464441
lol my dude, im not even the original guy to respond to you btw
well i really hope you break your porn addiction someday, i hope you learn to make friends and stop fearing intimacy and make a real family and to stop being a loner
everyone can see how you've plainly avoided every opportunity to deny being asexual when it would instantly win you the argument

>>211464599
in space, no one can hear you come.

>>211464486
But memory determining your identity is my position, that in my hypothetical both creations are you because they both remember being you.

>>211464634
>continues to confess under the banner of attacking others
ok

>>211464666
That makes no sense, the locus of an unending (You) sits with one or the other, the original, namely.

>>211464641
You obviously haven't been in space

>>211464599
seriously though: who tf cares about pussy?

>>211464756
If I'm being honest I'd rather not care about pussy, it woud save me years upon years of time and effort

Unfortunately for me my diick really, really, REALLY loves pussy

>>211464902
You should just become an asexual and develop a porn addiction.

>>211464666
Again, you’re drawing a non-existent distinction between awareness of self and the self.

>>211465027
I too am a hard problem skeptic.

>>211465027
No, that's what you're doing. My position is firmly that I am me and not someone else because I remember being me.

You're position is attributing some special significance to your brain matter.