Thread 211471213

Is there a reason HBO did not cast a muscular woman for the part of Abby in The Last of Us? The actress they chose is quite skinny and unimposing

If you like muscle girls you are gay. You find the male physique more attractive than a female’s. I don’t make the rules.

Too much muscle

>>211471213 (OP)
Most men do not find muscular woman attractive

It should have been Chloe

>>211471213 (OP)
holy fuck imagine the sex. God i'd lick the sweat out of every crevace

Her hair should be shorter

>>211471213 (OP)
those muscles don't mean shit. i'd still hold her down and tickle her till she pees her pants

>>211471213 (OP)
im gonna guess its because they wanted the actor to be jewish and theres probably been zero jacked jewish women ever. when jews try to get jacked they ahve to roid themselves half to death just to look like disgusting gnomes like mike isratel. it just wasnt meant to be.

>>211471307
does "most men" just mean dudes with low t in your world? cause muscle girls are horny 24/7. especially if they're on gear. they wanna fuck 6 times a day. sorry you're not man enough to handle that.

Friendly reminder: a woman can build that much muscle naturally with almost 0 test... Even you faggots with low T can get a decent amount of muscle..


t 5ft11 190lb 12% bf natural

>>211471454
Welp, turns out you’re wrong

500 bucks says every single one of these "muscle girls" has been viciously raped at least once in their life - but instead of seeking therapy, went the complete opposite direction and obsessively took to weightlifting (and most likely steroids) in an hilarious and vain proclamation that, "no man shall EVER rape me, AGAIN!!!"

Probably politics, in the studio/office sense, that made it so the girl had the right people pushing for her to get the role and nobody ever cared about making it so she was jacked.
However this isn't what the thread is about.

>>211471544
slightly stronger than the average indian man (you) but not even close to a varbie or what is portrayed in tlou2

She has a MASSIVE forehead

>>211471817
Anon, she could literally kill you with ease

>>211471213 (OP)
I commissioned a famous oil painter to do a 6ft by 6ft painting on my sister's asshole. A huge close up. It's in the living room above the fireplace.

>>211471858
>6'3"
>215lbs
>did kickboxing for 10 years
>several state titles
I doubt that, champ. I doubt that.

>>211471213 (OP)
You wouldn't talk to her.

>>211471933
This, I would listen. And that's what no one else did.

>>211471899
I can't even imagine the size of your sister's asshole if they can fit a 6ft by 6ft painting on it.

>>211471213 (OP)
i want a chick like this to pin me down and make my smell her armpits, stuff like that

>>211471923
>thinks strip mall kickboxing has any utility against grappling
oh no oh no pffffftt hahaha

>>211471858
oh great another bjj queer

>>211472119
>5'7" woman
>165lbs
>thinks she has ANY chance against even my advantage in weight and reach, let alone my skills
Look, I commend you for your trolling, but you have to stop. You really need to.

>>211471858
bro she is 180lbs at most.
I can throw that weight over my head.

>>211472338
The wiki page says 72kg (160lbs) - absolutely PATHETIC

>>211472280
youre not wrong about your immense weight

>>211472430
That's right. All 215lbs of it. That's 50lbs more than your pathetic bitch.

>crazy hapa with an absent white father gets overtly involved with masculine hobbies

Tale as old as time

>>211471213 (OP)
>shaved armpits

>>211472196
Uh, wrestling and bjj are two different things

>>211471213 (OP)
It was just a really bad season. This was honestly the least of its problems. They did a decent job with season 1 but seemingly lost their nerve with S2.
They took probably the best-written game ever made, cut it in half, crudely rearranged it in ways that ruin some of its most impactful moments, completely changed the overall tone, and replaced understated naturalistic dialogue with some of the most awkward, bizarrely awful shit I've ever heard.

>>211472280
Surely her speed is superior?

>>211472601
Give it up. Jesus, there are so many fucking deluded faggots at this place.

>>211471923
You may be able to put up a good fight, but in all likelihood you’d be beaten rather badly. Even trained men lose to trained women in wrestling. Without a grappling background you’d be pretty much defenseless. That’s why pure TKD and karate guys don’t make it in MMA

>>211471213 (OP)
damn she cute

>>211472800
Now this is quality trolling.

>>211471858
Wrestling Girls are so cute.

>>211472507
probably 215 at 5' 6"

>>211471213 (OP)
does anyone else think her biceps/triceps are disproportionate to the rest of her musculature or is it just me? like it feels like she worked those in specific moreso than the rest and that the rest should be bigger to match, maybe its just me idk

>>211473119
You're so fucking pathetic.

>>211473133
Biceps and triceps? No, but her deltoids are.
She is on Anavar, 100%.

>>211471544
>>211471858
>Her brother Oshry was murdered at home at age 23 during an attempted robbery in 2018.[14] Her father Yair died in 2022 during the COVID-19 pandemic.[5] Both of her grandfathers and her great-grandmother were Holocaust survivors.[8]
poor bb

>>211473302
They deserved it

>>211471213 (OP)
>black hair
>dark brown eyes
it's subhuman

>>211471213 (OP)
All that matters is that she can bust crust.

>>211471729
This is why you should always target muscle girls, they think they are strong but nothing beats the cock.

>>211473515
She is half asian.

>>211473893
>she

>>211474149
She is a 16 years old half-Thai half-American girl, yes.

>>211474167
Both Thai and American women have a penis chud, so 1/2 Thai and 1/2 American still have a full penis

>>211474167
>>it's a 16 years old subhuman mutt
FTFY

>>211471213 (OP)
The show is made for fat girls that played the game. It was a girl game and that's who they're appealing to. Fat girls don't want to be confronted with the fact that working out would make them attractive.

>>211472575
0:07 is me;!

>>211471923
AND your dad works at Nintendo! Retarded little thin-wristed zoomer fagboy.

>>211474489
>admitting you're a little kid

>>211473162
hahaha ok fatty

>>211471291
Ok, but is there a reason HBO did not cast a muscular woman for the part of Abby in The Last of Us though?

>>211474489
Based

My first crush was a highschool girl that was on the wrestling team. She had braces and black hair. We would talk on irc for a local forum . When we met face to face at the library i talked about animal crossing and texted her later confessing my love for her. We were sixteen. She told me an old guy jerked off to her at a pool

>>211471291
fpbp

>skinnyfat manlet
>recently began lifting
>arms getting bigger but thats it, stomach pokes out, extremely insecure about it
>legs skinny as fuck

how long until i get better ?

>>211471923
i'd literally shove you to the ground and pull your pants down and fuck your ass and smack your tiny pink balls and rape you and fuck your mouth and cum inside your doodoopussy. you aren't tough.

>>211471291
if you consider OP a 'male physique' you are the DYEL faggot

>>211480207
4chan is social media

>>211471213 (OP)
she will give me many strong sons

>>211471213 (OP)
Sex with strong women

>>211471291
I like muscle girls because they are the furthest thing from the landwhales that have become too common in this country. Everyone is obese and the women are landwhales. I am on team "women who make sure to take care of their bodies"

>all that muscle
>still gets bodied effortlessly by a random overweight white man

lel

>>211471213 (OP)
Been lifting for 2 years and nowhere near her level.

>>211471858
have you ever fought a girl? i have two sisters women have zero strength. i have thrown them across the room many times just by accident

>>211471291
It having boobs and vagene automatically makes liking muscular body straight. Cope and seethe.

>>211471291
TRVKE

>>211471213 (OP)
The audience would have wondered why it was not the muscular woman who will be a dad, rather than the anthropomorphized spud.

>>211479840
>t. homosex

>>211472597
>honestly

>>211471213 (OP)
so did you get laughed out of /fit/ again or why are you speaking here, muscletroon?

>>211484404
>le typo
it's joever

>>211482254
Nigga you just gay

>>211479523
like a solid 4-6 months of consistency, a good diet and tons of cardio

>>211471923
I'm 6'4 and want a 6 foot mommy.

>>211484846
>have sex with women
>gay
Okay you go put your weinis into a landwhale's blowhole or suck a feminine penis to prove how straight you are, xir.

>>211471213 (OP)
>(((druckman))) doing something people actually like

>>211471729
>women
>effort and accountability

>>211476860
Well don't leave us hanging, what happened? Did you guys go out?
>>211480207
I honestly enjoy these posts as long as it's on topic and in moderation.

>>211471213 (OP)
Who the fuck is this semen demon?

>>211485552
A lot of people did like the show though, didn't they? Not that they should have and I haven't seen it, but I thought popular opinion was positive and this board was an outlier as usual.

>>211473302
It’s impressive how many jews survived the worst event in human history. Usually when germans get to work on something they will succeed with extreme precision but not during the holocaust.
Its quite strange.

>>211471213 (OP)
lesbians call themselves dyke and look like this.
phtt bro this is more feminine than 99% of women I see daily.

>>211471495
This might be the copiest cope post I've ever read in my life.

>>211485865
Normies gulped down the sloppy first season but they didn’t like the second season because they only watched season one because of joel and ellie.

It’s literally the game situation all over again but with an entirely different and lower iq audience.

>>211482659
Right? Her body, effort, and discipline are kino, even if she is on the juice.

>>211485865
>A lot of people did like the show though, didn't they?
the same exact way the retards that liked the games did
they liked it up until joel gets GOLFED
then the audience "magically" all turned into homophobic losers who cant deal with strong wahmen

>>211471213 (OP)
IDK

>>211471213 (OP)
Strong dissonance

>>211472575
name?

>>211471213 (OP)
Now let's see her without angle-cheating

>>211471729
>most likely steroids
it's a given

>>211471729
>get raped
>"Aw, you were raped? You should definitely try 'the rapey'!"
How did we as a society unironically fall for the meme that sitting in a room talking to some retard is the best way to achieve mental well-being?

>>211472547
This, I can only take fit women seriously if they keep themselves hairy and natural. Otherwise you can tell they're just trying to farm attention.

This the thread?

>>211471213 (OP)
Built for BWC

It's hard to take any of these women ITT seriously knowing they are like 5'3

>>211471291
>if you like girls that have a PUSSY you are gay!
uh what

>>211472575
i wish 0:07 were me

>>211486971
fuck did you just say, chud?

>>211472800
Sylvia a cute

>>211487085
The average /tv/ poster could beat any of them in a fight lel

>>211486189
She cute.

>>211485766
No . I was fat and she got in a relationship with a 30 year old. I would cyberstalk her photo bucket.

>>211486189
Hummina hummina.

>>211486189
if you cut the retarded hair she'd be hot

>>211486189
she doesnt have bicepces, what she if flexing for?

>>211488037
Uh, because it’s cute?

musclefags be like MMMMMM LOVE OGRES NEED TO FUCK MOMMY'S ROIDCLIT MMMMM

musclefags are like HUMINA HUMINA I NEED MY MUSCLE MOMMY GF

>>211471213 (OP)
post muscularwoman2.webm

>>211482254
the way they exercise and all the steroids they take is not taking care of their bodies. they are just as unhealthy as the landwhales.

>>211488037
IDK but she cute.

>>211471213 (OP)
>ever training upper half
wom*n are a fucking meme

>>211488464
MOAR you just cant post 1 Tomboyfu an not post moar

>>211488193
>all fems
fucking internet brainrot

>>211471291
i would 100% rather have a muscle gf like the one in op than a fat or skinnyfat one (usually devolves into fat)

>>211471291
This. Easiest way to find a closeted fag.

>>211488464
Imagine the handjobs

>>211488193
what is she even bitching about. Just fix your hair its ugly as shit

>>211490395
closeted gay men dont like women

>>211471307
Do you seriously think they cast for attractiveness? In The Last of Us?

>>211471307
They cast Bella Ramsey as the main character, so attractiveness is clearly not their criterion.

they're half-assing the entire show. Mazin thinks he's too good to do a zombie show.

>>211487085
ah yes, if you're a man and you're sexually attracted to those "women", you are absolutely, completely heterosexual.

>>211471858
she is weaker than the average full grown adult male who doesn't even lift

>>211487085
man. women are retarded.

>>211485783
her ig is skulxop. But she's literally 16 with a full back tattoo.

>>211488464
Lovely.

>>211471213 (OP)
because after the choice was made not to re-write the story of the second game into a GOOD use of the series' potential then everyone literally stopped caring.
hire an actual man, just to annoy anita sarkesian. who gives a shit?
i will never watch it

>>211472597
>probably the best-written game ever made
chat, is this a real opinion?

>>211471213 (OP)
Abby's body model in the game was pic related. I highly doubt most of the anons here who shit talk muscular women wouldn't let her climb on top of them.

Katy O'Brian can't be the only modern actress who takes lifting that seriously. I don't get it, either, OP.

How big is...too big?

>>211479609
>doodoopussy

>>211471213 (OP)
I wish i'd read these fucking Wheel of Time novels so i could feel rightfully feel superior to people who haven't read the books before the screen adapration existed - same way i feel about the LOTR series. I think the LOTR movies are absolute kino but knowing the details that were ommited makes me feel wicked smaht and informed UN-FUCKIN'-IRONICALLY

>>211471858
killing is not a feminine trait, it's a masculine trait

>>211471291
I wouldn't call them gay but t's still odf
Specially when they call those girls things like "muscle mommies" (I've seen this even on normie social media, I don't know if ctrl+f will yield results itt) it just makes me think those guys are all about that peter pan syndrome and self loathing

>>211471291
If a certain muscle definition can be naturally developed by a female body how is it male physique?
It's like saying that women who like slim dudes are lesbians

>>211500299
Awooga!

Bros, she's 16
https://www.instagram.com/skulxop/

>>211502239
rough

>>211500225
And such a person with a body like that would live in a post-apocalyptic world full of zombies and monsters because...?

>>211488464
Dream lady.

>>211471213 (OP)
Abby wasn't supposed to be a hulk in the game but despite the point of the game being that both girls are identical, they didn't want the second half to feel like you're playing reskinned Ellie. Abby is so big solely so she would look and feel different to the player

>>211504146
They even changed her design and increased her muscles in the second trailer.

>>211504146
>Abby is so big solely so
Wasn't it the writers' fetish.

>>211502239
If I can mire men's physique without being gay, I can mire her physique without being pedo

>>211471729
How many of your exes started lifting?

Anyone remember this girl's name

>>211505061
hope solo. she has nudes.

>>211471213 (OP)
the cross-section of decent actresses and muscular is so fucking small

>>211471213 (OP)
They liked Dever when she came in to audition for Ellie. So when it came time to cast another brunette they just called her because there was already a familiarity. Happens all the time

>>211503333
>this body is unrealistic!
>not the fungal zombies tho

Jesus Christ /tv/ is slow now. Did someone remove all the bots or something? This place is dead

>>211471923
>8'9
>300lbs
>invented MMA
>champion of the world
psst, get on my level chud

>>211505061
>reverse search
Samantha Wright, idiot

>>211502239
Great, she's sexually mature. I can oogle without shame.

>>211471291
I’m gay for women

>>211505370
Oh, yeah, I forgot everybody goes to the gym during the zombie apocalypsis.

>>211471291
If you think muscular women have the same body type as men, you are mentally deficient

>>211471213 (OP)
They wanted you to root for Abby.

>>211509573
They didn't need to make abby attractive to do that, since Ellie is an absolute piece of shit

>>211509793
Dunno, everybody loved Ramsey in Game of Thrones.

>>211471291
If it's a female body, it's female physique. You are brain rotten by trannyism to be averse from attraction to women

>>211471508
You're trans thobeitever

>>211509887
No, I mean the character of Ellie has a personality that is horrifically annoying and self-centered

>>211471729
OK? No one cares u probably got raped too, since statistically most faggots were

>>211471923
Yeah if we were in prison you'd be sleeping on my floor after cleaning it

>>211509973
>if a woman is too stereotypically feminine in appearance, it's probably a tranny trying too hard!
>if a woman is unattractive in any way, it's probably a tranny not trying hard enough lmao you'll never pass!
A solid 50% of men on the internet today could have a pussy right in front of their face and ask if it's ai-generated because it doesn't look how they expected it to.

>>211510047
Yeah, but people may love the actor even when the character is not well-written.

>>211510170
>right in front of their face and ask if it's ai-generated
Kek

>>211502239
>Bros, she's 16
legal in my state, sorry cali bros

>>211510551
Gorgeous.

>>211474252
Go ahead and post a Time stamped photograph of your eyes and hands

>>211487210
As a 32yo I can certify that f****** high school girls is probably the best experience in the world. The ones who know what they want, aren't shy about it and they will let you do anything you desire. I've made some bitches eat my asshole before they've even had their first kiss, and they still came back for more

>>211498261
>But she's literally 16
A bit on the older side for my taste since you should probably be keeping her around for a while, but I wouldn't mind

>>211502239
Old

>>211510170
Nice mental gymnastics, troon

>>211500299
Mommy.

>>211513223
>Mommy.
>>211501619
>Awooga!
God bless America.
https://www.girlswithmuscle.com/images/full/2082443.mp4

>>211513842
Is this achievable natty?

>>211473515
Plenty of white people have black hair and eyes, like uh, uh,

>>211514080
>Is this achievable natty?
What do you think?

>>211514254
I want to lick her pulsating pussy veins

>>211514314
>I want to lick her pulsating pussy veins

>>211514176
>white people
>black hair and eyes
They are not white or people

>>211509024
This. Literal insecure "hypermasuline" faggotd infesting this board

>>211473823
wish that happened to me

>>211500225
>>211500299
>>211513842
>>211514254
>>211514524
Disgusting, you fags always ruin any discussion of fit women with these nasty ass roid freaks

>>211514254
Anabolics should be banned.

>>211471213 (OP)
They should have cast Brock Lesnar's daughter

>>211516302
>>211516379
Why do you anons have such a problem with power pussy?

>>211509887
No they don’t that character was fucking cringe as fuck

Something strange happened recently where I’m not obsessed with women flexing. Cropped because you know why

>>211471291
If you have this opinion you are an enormous fag.
Womens muscles are way different from men's, and their being pronounced only accentuates their difference from a male frame. The only reason you could feel revulsion is that you are so weak and unmasculine yourself that you feel challenged by these magnificent creatures. Which is totally laughable. Shape up.

Hast thou tamed any great beasts today, Brethren of the Order of the Four Chans?

>>211487114
ai has truly gone too far

>>211518349
why didn't he workout his femurs more?

>>211517284
>random actress who played a popular game of thrones character loved by the american audience gets to play a video game character loved by the american audience
Makes sense.

>>211518422
Not nearly far enough

>>211517284
Revisionism.

>>211518896
I like it.

>>211518896
>cant even gen a western roastie without a tattoo

grim

>>211471858
I'm an lithe-wasted , in shape manlet twink thats about the same physical stats as her, 5'7 160, and I'm 100% certain I could faceroll her lifetime of training just with male bone density and musculature and there's jack shit she could do about it

>>211471291
Fit is nice, roided looks horrible

>>211471213 (OP)
I want to be sexually abused by her.

>>211472969
Whatever you want mommy.

>>211520578
You could beat her in a street fight. In a wrestling match youd probably lose to a high school girl>>211472800 let alone an Olympic gold medalist. It’s a much more technical sport than you seem to think.
It’s not a knock on your strength. Youd lose to a female fencer too.

>>211520835
Yeah I never said otherwise, same way a female boxer would beat me in a short boxing contest on points handily but that same female boxer in a street fight would be a mismatch in my favor
But what I was responding too wasn't really presupposing a sporting contest

>>211471213 (OP)
Muscular woman doesn’t even make sense in the apocalypse

>>211488464
>A cute girl who's muscular but isn't clearly on some sort of gear or anavar
Divine, and also unfortunately much rarer than they should be

>>211471213 (OP)
>In this thread: OPs barely disguised fetish

>>211471291
Fpbp as usual.

>>211517728
imagine typing all of this out just so you can try to prove to yourself you’re not gay kek

>>211471291
Fags got mad at this post but it’s true. Fit girls with some muscles? Fine and dandy. Being turned on by girls who want to look like they take roids like OP? Pure faggotry.

>>211471923
Technique is the great equaliser, if a chick is learned enough she'll fold you in half in front of your family

>>211517136
This is fucking gross.

>>211521445
>Technique is the great equaliser
There is no great equaliser you mark, technique isn't worth shit unless the male is exceptionally weak and the female is fit in her own right
If it's an average guy he's gonna have to hold back against even practiced professional females
The webm you posted is a guy goofing around against a girl and her taking it 100% seriously which is just kind of cunty of her, he could've at any point killed her

>>211521550
>If it's an average guy he's gonna have to hold back against even practiced professional females
how do you explain instances where trained men lose to women
>>211472575
>>211472800
given the strength difference it should not be possible. even middle school boys are stronger than grown female weightlifters

>>211521645
Anomalies and outlier examples exist, the chicks just outskilled them hard enough, are probably vastly more dedicated, and there's also the possibility they sandbagged against a female opponent
Plus wrestling is a more clearcut matter of technique and leverage, if that was an actual fight you don't think she'd have remotely held her own, do you?

>>211521499
>This is fucking gross.

>>211471213 (OP)
Because it doesn't make sense for a woman in a zombie apocalypse to have the physique of someone with an extremely strict diet, supplement, and workout regime. None of that shit is available in a zombie apocalypse.

>>211521751
>outskilled
You just said technique isn’t worth shit>>211521550 and those aren’t average guys. They’re trained.

>>211521879
Yes, technique isn't worth shit in a straight up fight, that's what your initial implication was
Different fields implicate different skillsets, low-level wrestling matches between high schoolers are where pronounces differences in dedication and quality of training shine through and technique IS worth shit
But in any normal fight, that technique won't be worth anything because it's not two parties acquiesing to a predetermined set of rules
Additionally laughable that you responsed to a dude that said he was 200+ lbs with the technique cope, there's no woman alive that could take a relatively trained 200+lb guy

>>211521445
>>211521550
>The webm you posted is a guy goofing around against a girl and her taking it 100% seriously which is just kind of cunty of her, he could've at any point killed her
what the fuck is her problem that pissed me off she legit wrenched back in a sleeper, absolute cunt behavior

>>211522504
What's so bad about that genuinely asking, is it easy to fuck up someone's spine if you wrench back

>>211521765
Is this shopped?

>>211521445
only way to come out on top of this for the guy is to grapple and rub your face over her tits and tummy

>>211471291
Fpbp

>>211520581
Amazing girl.

>>211525353
Nope.

>>211505220
Isn't she also a coal burner?

>>211471213 (OP)
>checkout her Instagram
>she literally 100% looks like a man from behind
>she is 16
How? No way person like her (shit ton tattoos) would have discipline and early push to lift.
Also, she takes test and steroids 100% and will probably die early on from either suicide or cardiac arrest.

>>211471495
Mens with high testosterone not going after the muscly ladies and calling them 'Muscle Mummiji'.

>>211529255
Plenty of bodybuilders have tattoos
>she takes test and steroids 100%
no shit sherlock, nearly every fitness influencer uses roids, and so does roughly half of serious male lifters (40% for female lifters)

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10938795/

>>211529255
>how does somebody with no discipline manage to get large muscles?
Gear.
>Also she takes test and steroids 100%
Why did you ask a question you knew the answer to?

>>211474167
>She is a 16 years old
how the fuck does someone get this fucking crazy fucked up by age 16 where they are fully damaged and taking gear already? who molested her?

>>211472575
Yes, the latter is far gayer and less realistic than the former.

>>211530154
Training and gym.

>>211505220
Kek haven’t seen that in a while.

>>211471291
>If you like girls you are gay.
l o l

>>211490853
>nosering meme
>anime peace signs
>looks like a prepubescent dude

>>211471291
Why do muscled girls cause a negative reaction in so many anons?

>>211521968
There are at least 3 women in the world that bench 700lbs. Id bet at least one woman would brock lesner that guy into next week.

>>211490853
What a cutie.

>>211471213 (OP)
One of the gayer threads

>>211471213 (OP)
>muscular woman
we fucking need 2060s barbarian female heros journeys. get the fuck in here hollywood. the public has spoken. imagine ripped bitches choosing powerless men with 3.5 inch cocks. it's like fucking arthurian legends in reverse and i'm all here for it. that strong bitch needs a little peen to save like the useless prince/princess pronoun wigger that he is.

>>211534981
why doesnt she tap out

>>211535003
because she's not a bitch like you
also it's not submission wrestling. blue is trying to pin her shoulder

>>211535074
not a wrestler but this looks pretty done to me, just wait it out til red has no strenght anymore

>>211525353
>Is this shopped?
No, she's really that big.
https://youtu.be/pV52fPV3VZc?t=21

>>211535459
I was so bummed-out that she retired.

>>211471213 (OP)
test

>>211535534
>I was so bummed-out that she retired.

She did?

Must be trying to preserve her endocrine system. I still haven't gotten over pic related, the sexiest mass monster I think I've ever seen. She'll likely never look this way again.

Cindy Phillips came back recently, bigger and more roided looking than she was even 15 ish years ago, so there's always hope.