>>211592528 (OP)
>novels full of pagan mythological beings and elements is le christcuck because the author said it was ok?
Was Tolkien delusional?

>>211592528 (OP)
>>211592823
Wait, do people actually argue over this and try to 'claim' this shit for their preferred group? Embarrassing.

>>211592823
No. I was going to tell OP to cease his spamming and that I find it somewhat vulgar but now I'm going to respond to you telling you you're retarded instead.

>>211592937
>Embarrassing
The only thing embarrassing is christcucks claiming books full of pagan themes are actually a Christian work.
I'm not claiming Tolkien was not catholic but LOTR is clearly a work of pagan fiction, even if unconsciously.

>where have all the good men gone

>>211593145
>you're retarded
High IQ genius response, well argued, you're very smart.

>>211592823
>it's totally a pagan book
Go to bed varg

>>211592528 (OP)
>posting same stuff for over two years now

>>211593193
no you’re just being an embarrassing retard. no one cares. the movies are comfy.

>>211592528 (OP)
There's absolutely nothing in there your pic which suggests they like it for the Christian themes.

>>211593193
If it was that obstinately pagan he as a practicing Catholic wouldn't have written it the way he did.
>>211593234
I am but you're not.

>>211592823
>>211593273
Long story short, pagans had many oral stories; however, it was the Christians who preserved them. Irish monks wrote the Book of Invasions, and Snorri Sturluson recorded Norse mythology.

Both are primary sources for what pagans believed about elves (Celtic and Germanic) as well as dwarves (Germanic).

That being said, both Sauron and Gandalf are Valar—basically angels—and Moloch is based on Satan (both are fallen angels).

>>211592528 (OP)
Only watching stuff because it's "comfy" is annoying now because it cuts into the media that's actually good. Grown adults spending their time after work watching Bluey without any kids in sight. It's legitimately weird

>>211593193
>The only thing embarrassing is christcucks
ftfy, inb4 muh joos

If you say words like "christcuck" you're retarded. Straight up. Total failure.

If you post threads like OP you're extremely cringe. What's the purpose other than start a discussion which this isn't the place for at all?

>>211592823
Nothing more Christian than using cool shit from pagan ideologies to sell you on Jesus's philosophy desu. Just look at Easter and Christmas.

>>211592528 (OP)
THEY WERE ONCE MEN THEY WERE ONCE MEN THEY WERE ONCE MEN

>>211593457
Calling someone a Christcuck is the low effort response people deserve when they say fedora.

>>211592528 (OP)
Is this >>211593464 what you wanted, OP? People giving their inbred-level retarded takes.
>>211593537
No. Those don't compare. One is vulgar and sexualized, generally blasphemous, the other makes fun of the appearance of a certain brand if internet "intellectual". If I were you I'd think thrice before posting blasphemies.

>>211593464
see
>>211593384

Pagan traditions were spoken. It were Christians who actually wrote them.

>>211593273
Seething.
>>211593322
>If it was that obstinately pagan he as a practicing Catholic wouldn't have written it the way he did.
Except it is and he did. You're dishonest to ignore all the pagan themes in LOTR.
>am but you're not
Yes dishonest people are always so smart.
>>211593457
Christians have always been both metaphorical and literal cucks, so I am literally just saying the truth. If it makes you seethe, that's tour problem.

>>211593757
>Pagan traditions were spoken
Only non med, and not even all of them.
>>211593666
>blaspheming my jew god is le bad
Blasphemy is fine when it is against lies such as Christianity that has been debunked all this time by philosophers, scientists and historians. Only liars still defend Christianity.

>>211593537
lel spotted the pseud christcuck

>>211593892
>and not even all of them.
Literally all non med.
In fact, most of what we know about ancient Germanic ppl was written by Tacitus and Gaul? Julius Cesare himself

>>211593781
>LARPagan with male hair fetish cuck fantasy
Spectacular stuff. Giving your sort of deranged brainlet any space to breathe is the exact reason why OP should stop posting here.

Your LARP is pathetic and your ancestors despise you.

>>211593457
>>211593537
fug wrong reply

Take this thread as proof that universal literacy is a grave mistake.

>>211594072
I have good news for you, illiteracy is a growing trend in burgerland

>>211592528 (OP)
Sam and Frodo were gay for each other, all of those nights together sharing a tent? hiking for years?

>>211593457
Christcuck

>>211594105
Most people probably shouldn't be taught to. So much pseudo-intellectual garbage coming to be because of it. The base condition that brings forth the LARPagan would remain but his layers of convoluted cope would not.

I'm out. Have fun hurting your souls.

>>211593892
shalom!

>>211592528 (OP)
>christian values
>Tolkien said he's jewish
lol

>>211594396
I can hate all these things and not believe in god either. Why are christcucks always trying to make it look like people without faith in a Christian God automatically suck kike or raghead ass. All semite religion are pants on head retarded and all of you fucking retards need to be culled.

>>211594396
Crazy how much you guys plagiarize from Judaism yet argue they're your sworn enemies. Jesus was literally a Jew trying to reform his religion. Religion is retarded main character syndrome nonsense, but Abrahamic Religions are a special case.

I refuse to believe that such a hateful, self loathing, miserable group of people have any special knowledge of how the universe works. I believe a god of some sort exists, but definitely not yours lol. Insane how a bunch of stone aged people positioned yourself as the center of culture. Meanwhile, you give up your actual cultures ancient beliefs for this dune drivel.

>>211592823
He was catholic, and their whole schtick is copypasting Bible names over pagan characters and rituals. They even have their own talmud called the catechism which lawyered Christianity to make it all technically not blasphemous according to them.

Shire tax policy?!

>>211594576
>>211594807
again, moishe. No one asked for your opinion. Denounce the Talmud

>>211593457
the op always gets posted to bait religion debates. The last thread literally did this

>>211594945
The antisemitism unironically makes me less likely to believe you follow the correct religion. Why are Christians so insecure, spiteful and hateful?

>>211593666
ok christcuck

>>211594172
>Sam and Frodo were gay for each other, all of those nights together sharing a tent? hiking for years?
Sam was bisexual at best.
, when he come back to shire he started to bang Rosie Cotton like a fucking rabbit

>>211594898
before or during Sharkey reign?

>>211595312
She was simply his beard

>>211594396
You christcucks are greater liars than the most dishonest of jews.

>>211594001
>gets btfo
>resorts to lies and projection

>>211593892
>believing marcus eli over christ
i think you're the one who got programmed bro

>>211592528 (OP)
Women will say the funniest shit as code for "we like it because it's filled with good looking white people"

Tolkien was a high quality, masterful hair splitter. The man hated allegory, even when his world is literally based on a lot of Christian themes and essences. He’s on record stating he prefers ‘applicability’ to allegory, as he found allegory akin to an author imposing his views upon the reader, rather than allowing the reader to apply such themes to his own life experience, the same way Tolkien’s life experience led to Lord of the Rings.

His setting is also running under Prime Directive logic. Elves are examples of sufficiently advanced aliens who don’t see themselves as magical beings.

This has never been refuted. Chuds just keep repeating the things the chuddie in the meme says.

>>211600083
>His setting is also running under Prime Directive logic. Elves are examples of sufficiently advanced aliens who don’t see themselves as magical beings.
Can you elaborate on this a bit more

>>211600178
It’s Christian if you want it to be, is the point. Tolkien’s take on Mordor was based on his experiences in the world war, so it’s not far fetched to assume his experiences with Catholicism would reflect his world. There’s no need for religion in his world. Religion is a bad thing in middle earth.

J. R. R. Tolkien was a devout Roman Catholic from boyhood, and he described The Lord of the Rings in particular as a "fundamentally religious and Catholic work; unconsciously so at first, but consciously in the revision". While he insisted it was not an allegory, it contains numerous themes from Christian theology.

But it’s not an allegory. You don’t HAVE to approach it as a Christian metaphor. He’s insistent on that. He didn’t like to impose. He is fine having his readers see things in his work the same way he saw things in real life that led up to his work.

>>211600182
Tolkien’s middle-earth has many prime directive and sufficiently advanced parallels. The elves are examples of sufficiently advanced elves (alien to men, not the world) that don’t consider their works to be magical, and the wizards are the equivalent of alien (actually alien to / predating the world) sages taking the guise of old men (humans have an age bias when it comes to listening to people) being sent down by a higher society to guide lesser life forms a more subtle way after a previous, more involved attempt, had ended in disaster, reshaping middle-earth into its current form. Pic related.

The elves look to the Maia/wizards much the same way humans (and hobbits) look to the elves. Magic is a bar, it is higher or lower, depending. The wicked machines of Mordor are compared to sorcery.

Everything is Music/Song to Eru/God. It’s a point in the series that magic is just… a point of view. A way of looking at the world. Tolkien had called it ‘enchantment’, or being enchanted by something to the point of seeing it as magic.

Gandalf is under a prime directive. Sauron (and later Saruman) is not. Gandalf makes fireworks to bring joy and laughter. Sauron and Saruman use the likes to produce weapons and bombs for war. Gandalf calls himself a wizard, as he may as well be, but he doesn’t go out of his way to steer ignorance and start cults and form evil religions, like Sauron.

>>211600178
There are millions of references to Catholic thought in LOTR. You need to be Catholic to get them.
Similarly, how you need to be a Mormon to get all the references to Mormonism in Big Love.
>T. Mormon/Catholic chad

>>211600363
>it contains numerous themes from Christian theology.
Name one

>>211600452
>There are millions of references to Catholic thought in LOTR
Name one

>>211593290
it's kinda the perfect bait

>mentions women (riles up incels)
>mentions generations (riles up trolls)
>mentions millennials (riles them up)
>mentions LOTR (riles up its fans)

>>211600456
Ask Tolkien. He called it a “fundamentally Christian work”. He has described Gandalf as a guardian angel before. The themes Christianity embody are also seen in other religions, meaning it’s also applicable to them. That was his point. It’s not an allegory, but you can see the themes and apply them to your life.

>>211600644
>Ask Tolkien
So even though there are so many of them in the books, you cannot name any of them yourself?

>>211600738
What? I just did. The issue is you’ll always cry “other religions have that too!” as though it means anything. Yes, stories copy stories.

>>211600456
Sauron is literally Satan. Or smaller Satan if we go by Morgoth.

>>211600821
>literally Satan
Why, because they are both evil?

>>211600613
This. It's like how "the One Ring only makes you invisible WOWWWWWW" threads always max out the replies.

>>211592823
Its full of christian elements though

>>211600934
See, you’re doing it again. You’re being willingly disingenuous.

>>211601312
No, explain to me how Sauron is "literally" Satan

>>211601342
If you can’t see it then I don’t know what to tell you. Morgoth and Sauron are both fallen angel equivalents.

>>211601166
Did you make this anon you cheeky bugger?

>>211593892
Modern Judaism and ancient Judaism are two completely separate entities. Ancient Judaism was destroyed completely by the Romans in the second century, whilst modern Judaism was created later on as an offshoot of Christianity with more gnostic beliefs. Modern Jewish texts are based off Christian texts, because the ancient Jewish texts no longer exist, even though most people think it was the other way around. Christianity was the natural evolution of ancient Judaism, and modern Judaism is a weird evil offshoot of Christianity based off Satanism

>>211601166
>dwarves and elves and middle earth are christian
lol
lmao even

>>211601473
>He didn't get the joke

Humans like to fantasize about being better than they are, like for women they'll romanticize good honest men and them being a princess. In reality they'll whore around while drunk and high with scummy dudes because it's exciting and easy.

>>211592823

>>211601473
The moral of the story is christian. The creatures are obviously inspired from older myths.

>>211601391
It never says that in the LotR books though. In The Lord of the Rings books themselves, Sauron is presented as this ancient dark power but his full background isn’t explained. The text refers to him as a dark lord, a great evil, but it doesn't dive into his origins. So, based on the LotR books, you might just as much claim that he is "literally Set" or any evil powerful mythological figure.

>>211601548
but i did
thats why i laughed

>>211592528 (OP)
>good guys are actually good
That's a misinterpretation of LotR. The entire idea behind the work is that no one is actually good and can be corrupted by the ring. The fallen valar and maiar who were once good etc.

It's based on the bible with no absolute good or evil either. You have people switching alignments like Satan and Saul/Paul, child-murdering angels, jealous gods, and good people suffering the wrath of god with no recourse and vice versa. Egypt subsequently conquering Judah after exodus is weird. It's like celebrating Dunkirk but in a reality where Nazi Germany subsequently conquered Great Britain.

>>211601624
You’re being disingenuous. They’re both fallen Maia. Tolkien has called Gandalf an angel before.

>So, based on the LotR books, you might just as much claim that he is "literally Set" or any evil powerful mythological figure.
See, you’re doing it again, as >>211600779 predicted. You’re a troll or something.

>>211601651
Stop lying, LotR is all about how there is no moral ambiguity in the battle between good and evil. This is what makes it so trad and christian.

>>211601624
>In The Lord of the Rings books themselves, Sauron is presented as this ancient dark power but his full background isn’t explained
We have extended material to look at thobeitfully, retard

>>211601691
>You’re being disingenuous. They’re both fallen Maia. Tolkien has called Gandalf an angel before.
Not in the LotR books.
You claimed the LotR books contain numerous catholic references. Show me where it says any of that in the LotR books, or admit that you haven't read them.

>>211601726
>We have extended material to look at thobeitfully, retard
So without this extended material, which was not published in Tolkien's lifetime, you could not tell that there are Catholic elements in LotR?

>>211593464
Wtf is pagan about Easter? The bunny? That's modern corporatism not Christianity.

>>211601651
>Egypt subsequently conquering Judah after exodus is weird.

If you real the OT most of it is kikes fucking up and God abandoning them. Just cause they were "chosen" doesn't mean he's their eternal protector.

>>211592528 (OP)
>for women
Huh?

>>211601768
>>211601801
You’re going against Tolkien’s own statements on the matter. This is proof that you’re butthurt. Tolkien said it has Christian themes. Deal with it. Your blindness isn’t even the issue. It’s your ‘lalalala I can’t hear you’ position.

>>211601801
Tolkien’s letters were sent in his lifetime. His notes delve into things not spoken of in the books - like how machines are magic - or how the elves look at their stuff the same way you look at your cellphone.

>>211602460
You cannot name ANY Christian themes that are in the LotR books themselves. If you couldn't tell that they are there without Tolkien telling you, then they either aren't there, or you don't know enough about Christianity to detect them, or you haven't read the books. Or, most likely, all of the above.
If a Tolkien letter was discovered where he says "actually, there was a 10th member of the fellowship named Glup Shittu, who was very important", would you pretend that Glup Shittu is an actual character playing a central role in the LotR books?

>>211602560
>You cannot name ANY Christian themes that are in the LotR books themselves
I can, and I did, you’re just saying they don’t count, like a fifteen year old on the internet.

>>211602520
So without this letter, you could not tell that there are Catholic elements in LotR?

>>211602585
You don’t need letters. People compared it to Christianity like fifty years ago, before the movies.

>>211602581
Are you referring to the Satan thing? I already told you that the parallel between Sauron and Satan (both being fallen angelic creatures) is not in the LotR books. Hence, it doesn't count as a Christian theme in the LotR books. Because its not in there.

>>211602560
>would you pretend that Glup Shittu is an actual character playing a central role in the LotR books?
If Tolkien said it, then yes. You just chalk it up to a background, unseen type or character. There’s also a letter of Gandalf annoying Saruman with his smoking. It adds a lot.

>>211602619
And when they did that, what thing from the books did they cite as Christian?

>>211602633
>I already told you that the parallel between Sauron and Satan (both being fallen angelic creatures) is not in the LotR books
Doesn’t matter. They’re in the extended material. Gandalf comes back like Jesus, or a guardian angel, and is of the same race as Sauron, an evil Maia. You could spot the fallen angel archetype miles away.

>>211602661
>If Tolkien said it, then yes
This is mental illness.

It's used up, blown out roasties trying to appeal to the "good guy" nerds they would have mocked 10+ years ago for liking this kind of shit, because now they're ready to "settle down."

>>211602669
We just told you. You’re just not accepting it.

>>211602690
So you admit tht it is not in the LotR books?
>Gandalf is of the same race as Sauron, an evil Maia
That is also not in the LotR books
>extended material
So without this extended material, which was not published in Tolkien's lifetime, you could not tell that there are Catholic elements in LotR?

>>211602743
No you didn't. You gave me stuff from Tolkien's letters and the Silmarillion, neither of which were published during his lifetime. Yet you claim that people were already citing them as evidence of the profoundly Christian themes within LotR prior to having access to these materials.
Give me just ONE thing that is in the actual LotR books, not any "extended materials".

Tolkien himself was Catholic, so of course there are going to be elements of Christianity in his writings. However, I feel like we often get stuck trying to pigeonhole Tolkien's writings as "fundamentally Christian" (he actually said this) or fundamentally non-Christian when that is not what Tolkien himself would have wanted.

Tolkien often stated that his writings were not allegorical of Christianity. Are there many Christian themes in the books? Yes. Are these themes in any way uniquely Christian? No. Tolkien's aimed for a experience that a reader from any background could relate to and draw inspiration from, and he hit the target dead center. His own experiences in the world war played into it. War is compared to sorcery.

So while it is true that the themes present in the story came from his Christian background, Tolkien wrote a story where the meaning can be applicable to anyone as opposed to forcing one (Christian) meaning on the reader.

Mainly, I just think the whole debate over its Christian or non-Christian origin is divisive and wholly unnecessary. Let's try not to push any narrative and just enjoy the mythology he made.

Tolkien still is on record describing it as “fundamentally Christian”, nonetheless.

>>211602755
>That is also not in the LotR books
Yes it is. Gandalf’s nature is explicitly brought up. Saruman’s connection to Sauron is implied, as both were Maia under the Valar Aule.

>>211602703
>>211602755
>>211602818
Are you dumbasses really trying to argue that you know more than the goddamn author, lmao; you really think a Christian wouldn’t have wrote this story with Christ in mind? Lol, lmao even

>>211602965
They are pathetic. Almost as pathetic as the “n-no magic still exists! machines aren’t magic!” people whenever I post the image in >>211602520

Most haven’t read Tolkien’s books or his letters

>>211592823
did you read book? or just skim the summary on discord?

>>211603042
>dude it’s all sci-fi
Shut up nerd

>>211603083
He’s throwing a tantrum ITT kek
He legit cannot spot the Christian themes
He is probably Indian or something

>>211602965
I am not disputing what was in Tolkien's mind. I am asking where it is in the books, accessible to people reading those books.
>Gandalf’s nature is explicitly brought up
Where?
>Saruman’s connection to Sauron is implied, as both were Maia under the Valar Aule
No, that specific connection is not mentioned in The Lord of the Rings books themselves. In The Lord of the Rings, Saruman’s origins and nature as a Maia aren’t stated. The term 'Maia' is never brought up, and Aulë is not mentioned in The Lord of the Rings books either.

>>211603204
No you are absolutely disputing it. You’re just warping your grey matter with mental gymnastics.

>>211603133
>He legit cannot spot the Christian themes
Neither can the people who claim that there are all these Christian themes in it, or else they could have mentioned one by now.

>>211601692
>no moral ambiguity in the battle between good and evil.
What the hell is the entire theme of corruption then. Hell, LotR literally starts off with the great demigod king of man defeating the evil then becoming evil himself. Was Isildur good or bad? Are men good or bad? The series makes it quite clear there is no absolute good or bad.

>>211592528 (OP)
Death of the author.

>>211603225
I am asking you for evidence from the LotR books. If these books actually contain all these Christian themes, you could point them out, but you can't.

>>211603204
>In The Lord of the Rings, Saruman’s origins and nature as a Maia aren’t stated.
They are, by way of Gandalf’s nature that is pointed out. They are the same. Pippin even questions Gandalf’s true nature.

>>211603133
He could be a fuckin' pickup truck for all we know!
Flush it out!

>>211603240
Because we already know what Tolkien was thinking of when he wrote it. He said it. That’s all we need. You’re just some Christian hater or something. It’s odd how obsessed you are with this. You’re trying so hard.

>>211603285
Yes, Pippin questions Gandalf's true nature, as this nature is left completely mysterious within the LotR books. There is no part in the LotR books where it is pointed out that Gandalf is a Maia. You are just lying.

>>211603243
It’s a teeter totter. One of the other. A full flip to the other side.

>There is no part in the LotR books where it is pointed out that Gandalf is a Maia. You are just lying.
It’s downright implied he is something a lot more. What else would he be?

>>211603324
>Because we already know what Tolkien was thinking of when he wrote it. He said it.
No you didn't know that until his letters were published in 1981. So you are saying that when Fellowship was first released and for the three decades after, there was no way of detecting the Christian themes in the actual LotR books.

>>211603281
Every time someone points out a Christian theme you claim it doesn’t count because it’s already been done by another religion, which is already known by historians, since the Abrahamic religions copy earlier stories and religions that came long before.

This is already the point >>211602858 made. I doubt you even read that post.


You’re not in this argument in good faith.

>>211603383
>It’s downright implied he is something a lot more. What else would he be?
It is implied that he is something other than human, therefore the only option is that he is a Maia, a creature that is NOWHERE mentioned in the LotR books and that readers only learned about in 1977, when the Silmarillion was published posthumously? Is this really your argument?

>>211603398
Now you’re putting words into my mouth. Gandalf wasn’t assumed to be human in the trilogy. He’s not an elf either. He’s just an enigma like Bombadil.

>>211601586
Tolkien didn't live in the 1600s.
There were a ton of Atheist scholars at Oxford at the time he was there.
He was even friends with a few of them.

>>211603443
>Every time someone points out a Christian theme you claim it doesn’t count because it’s already been done by another religion
No, every time someone points out a Christian theme I claim it doesn't count because you only ever cite texts other than LotR as evidence, never LotR. Hence, I correctly maintain that you cannot point to any Christian themes within LotR. Why is that so hard for you to understand?

>>211592528 (OP)
Millennial women are godless heathens, the time has come to feed them to the lions

>"d'awwww they're like big pussycats!"
>ROOOAAARRRR
>*sound of flesh being torn from bone*

Fuck yeah this is gonna be awesome

>>211603463
The name Maia doesn’t even need to be brought up. He’s already compared to an angel in the second and third book. He’s already an angelic figure. His nature is an implication throughout the narrative.

>>211603324

>>211603383
>It’s a teeter totter. One of the other. A full flip to the other side
Not really. Bilbo for instance showing flashes of jealousy. Or Boromir who had moments of weakness but then repents.

They're actually realistically morally grey characters, just not "morally grey" in the way crappy modern authors incorrectly utilize it like in Game of Thrones, which actually do not depict morally grey people at all but literal sociopaths that are purely evil operating on a hair trigger.

>>211603514
>Hence, I correctly maintain that you cannot point to any Christian themes within LotR.
Except I can. I did. And you’re still denying it.
>Why is that so hard for you to understand?
Why is it so hard for you to understand that the author disagrees with you?

>>211603542
>He’s already compared to an angel in the second and third book. He’s already an angelic figure. His nature is an implication throughout the narrative.
He absolutely is never compared to an angel in those books, yet another bare faced lie.

>>211600452
Dude they are all white!

>>211603575
>Not really
Yes really. This world is silly. There’s no religion since all religion is bad according to Tolkien. Only the one religion is right. It’s so right that nobody even needs an explicit religion.

>>211603548
You look like neither of the people depicted in this image, do you?

>>211603575
>but literal sociopaths that are purely evil operating on a hair trigger.
Or a better way to put it, schizophrenics.

>>211603596
>He absolutely is never compared to an angel in those books
A Christian would absolutely interpret it that way, as Tolkien did when he wrote the book. He’s a guardian angel who is protecting the fellowship, and free folk.

>>211603618
You're a fucking white male!

>>211603591
>Except I can. I did. And you’re still denying it.
No, you are referring to the Silmarillion and Tolkien's letters. You are utterly unable to point out something in the actual LotR books.
Let me make it plain for you:
The LotR books are: The fellowship of the ring, the two towers, the return of the king.
If you claim that these books contain Christian themes, then point them out. Refer to something that is actually within those books.

>>211603675
Aragorn is protecting the fellowship and free folk. Is he an angel too?

>>211603596
>bare faced lie.

The books certainly have an element of divine intervention by a creator god which could be construed as somewhat monotheistic if not abrahamic or christian. Tiny but critical.

The movies dont have that though.

Rome was burned by Christians. Christcucks tried to retroactively play this down.
Burning of heretics and the worship of Jesus being crucified is just human sacrifice.
Christcucks yearn for the apocalypse.

>>211603636
You didn't address my points about Bilbo or Boromir.

>There’s no religion since all religion is bad according to Tolkien.
That's not even a point of contention, seeing as how literal god exists in the Tolkien universe so the existence of religion is a foregone conclusion, explicitly practiced or not. The elves hold the belief in the grey isles and the nture of their souls compared to men etc.

>>211603730
Show me a single passage in the LotR books where Gandalf is compared to an angel.

>>211603749
Rome was burned by lots of people desu

Including often romans

White women trying to "outwhite" other women could have some very hilarious consequences.

>>211592528 (OP)
Leftists hate the fact that Tolkien was a Catholic Christian and LOTR is a Catholic work.

>>211603771
Nigger, I was making fun of you for incorrectly using an idiom.
It proves you're some kind of ESL, probably brown. Indian seems likely. Maybe Chinese.

>>211603686
You’re still denying that Gandalf comes back like Jesus and that he’s an inhuman figure suspiciously guiding others on a select path the same way angels do. You are still denying the absolutist black-and-white dark lord take of Sauron, coinciding with Christians obsessive outlook on the matter of good and evil.

You can say these aren’t all that uniquely Christian, and you’d even be right, but they are still Christian, and Christians still and do continue to find religious meaning in Tolkien’s works.

>>211603727
He certainly can’t stall a fucking demon like Gandalf did, or return from the dead.

>>211603727
Aragorn has the mandate of heaven.

>>211603761
Most don’t actively believe in the existence of Eru, though. Tolkien only states they prey to Maia without realizing it, as simple little gestures, not full fledged religion.

>>211603542
Eru isn’t brought up by name, either, but he’s very much ‘the One’ like how God is ‘the One’.

Eru is only directly mentioned twice, both times in Appendix A of RotK, and both times only as "the One". The first time is in the section on the history of Numenor:

— At length Ar-Pharazôn listened to this counsel, for he felt the waning of his days and was besotted by the fear of Death. He prepared then the greatest armament that the world had seen, and when all was ready he sounded his trumpets and set sail; and he broke the Ban of the Valar, going up with war to wrest everlasting life from the Lords of the West. But when Ar-Pharazôn set foot upon the shores of Aman the Blessed, the Valar laid down their Guardianship and called upon the One, and the world was changed. Númenor was thrown down and swallowed in the Sea, and the Undying Lands were removed for ever from the circles of the world. So ended the glory of Númenor.

The second is when Arwen mentions him in the Tale of Aragorn and Arwen:

— “Nay, dear lord,” she said, “that choice is long over. There is now no ship that would bear me hence, and I must indeed abide the Doom of Men, whether I will or I nill: the loss and the silence. But I say to you, King of the Númenóreans, not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall. As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last. For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men, it is bitter to receive.”

This is all very Christian, since the Name of God is sometimes just really a name at all, but rather a descriptor.

>>211604124
Damn. Numenor is Sodom?

>>211592528 (OP)
>Christian values
Worshipping a kike, betraying your people for jewish bullshit and mutilating your children to be like kikes?

Tolkien:

— It is a monotheistic world of 'natural theology'. The odd fact that there are no churches, temples, or religious rites and ceremonies, is simply part of the historical climate depicted. It will be sufficiently explained, if (as now seems likely) the Silmarillion and other legends of the First and Second Ages are published. I am in any case myself a Christian; but the 'Third Age' was not a Christian world.

The Valar (greater gods/angels) are named in the books.

Gandalf:

— “There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides that of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring, in which case you were also meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought.”

God/Eru works in mysterious ways.

>>211603940
>You’re still denying that Gandalf comes back like Jesus
Hang on, Gandalf is Jesus? I thought he is obviously an angel! I thought you don't know anything about LotR but now it turns out that it is Christianity which you don't get. You know Jesus is not an angel, right?
>inhuman figure suspiciously guiding others on a select path the same way angels do
Yes, he is an inhuman figure, like many characters in LotR which you wouldn't pretend are clear cut angels, like Galadriel and Tom Bombadil. Just because Gandalf guides others doesn’t automatically make him an angelic figure imposing a “select path". Gandalf openly doubts, struggles, and even fears at times. He’s a wise but fallible being trying to help in a dark, dangerous world where outcomes are never guaranteed. As one would expect from someone who is constantly identified as a Wizard. It’s also worth noting that Gandalf being a “wizard” is pretty un-angelic from a Christian perspective, given that Christians hate sorcerers and burn them.
> You are still denying the absolutist black-and-white dark lord take of Sauron,
“Nothing is evil in the beginning. Even Sauron was not so.” Ah yes, very black and white.
>Christians still and do continue to find religious meaning in Tolkien’s works.
Readers bring all kinds of perspectives to the story. Gay people think its a gay story, google it. I am asking what is actually in the text, without the need for external materials.
It’s pretty clear you’re not arguing in good faith here. Earlier, you outright lied about Maia and Aulë being mentioned in The Lord of the Rings, when those terms never appear in the text. Then you flip-flop on whether someone needs access to Tolkien’s letters or The Silmarillion to claim LotR as a Christian text, which just shows you’re grasping at straws.

>>211604328
There is a single mention of the Valar in The Lord of the Rings (“May the Valar turn him aside! Mûmak! Mûmak!'”). But that’s it. The text never elaborates on who or what the Valar are, nor does it identify them as “angels” or “greater gods.”

So while the name appears, the books themselves provide zero context or indication that the Valar are divine beings like angels. Understanding their full nature comes only from The Silmarillion and other supplementary texts.

>>211604393
>Hang on, Gandalf is Jesus? I thought he is obviously an angel!
You really can’t compare the two? They are both Christian elements. Wow you’re not a good faith debater.

>>211603940
Not him and I agree that LotR is styled in the Christian tradition, but it is as equally styled in the Germanic pagan tradition that was popular in the time of Wagner (Ring cycle which was the major inspiration of LotR), and which had widespread support from noble patrons like Ludwig II, ultimately culminating with Hitler who was Tolkien's contemporary and the nazi party seeking to recreate a founding myth for the german people

In that regard LotR is not really a christian work outside of the overarching framework of god/angel analogues. It's more of syncretic fairy tale.

I'd also like to say Christianity isn't actually as clear cut between good and evil either, at least not originally. A lot of the dichotomy was artificially grafted on later by the catholics and protestants, especially the american protestants.

>>211604390
That line from Gandalf is deliberately vague and poetic, not at all an explicit reference to Eru or a monotheistic “One God.” Tolkien’s wording “other forces at work,” “meant to find the Ring” may just as well reflect the idea of fate or providence, but it surely doesn’t specify a singular divine being like Eru in the narrative, and to claim that this marks a clear nod to Eru or a Christian-like deity imposes outside knowledge on a deliberately ambiguous statement meant to suggest hope and destiny, not a specific theological doctrine.

>>211604492
Theoden is compared to Orome during the charge of the Rohirrim...

Can you please leave this thread and never come back?

All of this was planned in Tolkien’s head.

>>211604547
Holy shit. This has all already been said, and he still ignores it.

See >>211602858

The point is it’s not uniquely Christian. It isn’t. No religion is truly unique in such a way. But these elements are still themes within wider Christianity - which did take a lot from earlier stories.

>>211604566
>That line from Gandalf is deliberately vague and poetic, not at all an explicit reference to Eru or a monotheistic “One God.”
Lolok whatever you say
“The One” is also mentioned at like three points in the book btw
Yeah it’s God

>>211604567
>Theoden is compared to Orome during the charge of the Rohirrim...
Yes, and the text never explains who or what Oromë actually is. There’s no indication in the LOTR books themselves that Oromë is a divine being, a Vala, or anything beyond a legendary figure. Once, again that deeper context comes exclusively from The Silmarillion and Tolkien’s other mythological writings, which were not available for readers for another two decades.

That’s exactly my point. I’m not questioning what Tolkien had in his head or his intentions behind the story. What matters is what’s actually on the page for the reader to understand and interpret. The text itself, The Lord of the Rings, doesn’t explicitly reveal or explain these mythological or theological details. It would have been impossible for a reader to read "Orome" and think "this is a Christian reference". Completely, and utterly impossible

>>211604547
>I'd also like to say Christianity isn't actually as clear cut between good and evil either, at least not originally. A lot of the dichotomy was artificially grafted on later by the catholics and protestants, especially the american protestants.

That’s why it’s absolutist black and white. All or nothing. The ironies don’t matter.

>>211604695
You’re still being disingenuous. Wow. If a reader interprets Christian themes in the works of Tolkien, there’s nothing you can do about it, buddy.

>Yes, and the text never explains who or what Oromë actually is
Lovely cope.

>>211604618
I already said I'm not the guy you were talking to. And besides, that post you linked says nothing about the German pagan tradition that LotR is chiefly based on, the Ring Cycle and German folklore.

To put it bluntly, LotR is like 15% christian at best, 85% pagan, so calling it christian is wholly incorrect.

>>211604695
>It would have been impossible for a reader to read "Orome" and think "this is a Christian reference". Completely, and utterly impossible

Stop moving the goalpost. That’s not what he’s saying. You said the big name angels like the Maia aren’t name dropped, when they’re greater counterparts, the Valar, are mentioned, however scarcely.

>>211604667
>“The One” is also mentioned at like three points in the book btw
The One is mentioned twice, both times in Appendix A.
I give you this one. You get an insanely vague reference to "The One" in one the appendices. Here is your deeply, fundamentally Catholic story bro!

>>211604776
>And besides, that post you linked says nothing about the German pagan tradition that LotR is chiefly based on, the Ring Cycle and German folklore.
Irrelevant. It’s all shared. The Germanic influences should be as obvious as the Catholic ones.

Also
>chiefly based on
The war for the ring is actually chiefly based on Tolkien’s time in the world war.

If LotR was christian, Galadriel would be considered a fucking witch to be put to the stake.

>>211604864
Nope.

>>211604845
“The One” is immensely Abrahamic, especially in regards to Judaism, you disingenuous spazoid. It’s one of His Names.

>>211604877
She’s not a witch. She doesn’t even see what she does as magic. This is another thing that ESL’s like >>211604776 and >>211604845 refuse to grasp.

>>211604769
>Lovely cope.
It doesn't. Show me where anything is explained about who or what Orome is in the LotR books, liar.
>>211604817
>You said the big name angels like the Maia aren’t name dropped, when they’re greater counterparts, the Valar, are mentioned, however scarcely.
Mentioning names like Oromë or the Valar once in The Lord of the Rings, without any context or explanation, does nothing to clarify their nature as angelic or divine beings. The books never define who they are or what they represent; they’re just dropped in as mysterious references.

For a reader encountering LotR alone, these names mean nothing more than vague, mythic figures. There’s no indication within the narrative itself that Oromë or the Valar are “greater angels” or gods. Understanding their full nature requires turning to The Silmarillion or Tolkien’s other writings, which are outside the main text.

>>211604817
>To put it bluntly, LotR is like 15% christian at best, 85% pagan, so calling it christian is wholly incorrect.
So it’s 85% Christian then? Because the majority of what Christians do is just repurposed Pagan practices. Even Christmas. The Catholic mass is actually indistinguishable from Satanic witchcraft.

>>211604904
Yep.

>>211604905
So LotR is a deeply Jewish text, congrats.

>>211604963
>It doesn't. Show me where anything is explained about who or what Orome is in the LotR books, liar.
Doesn’t matter. He was name dropped. The Valar are mentioned. “The One” is mentioned. Tolkien had all of this angel bullshit in mind from the very beginning.

You’re just a wiener. Simple as.

>Mentioning names like Oromë or the Valar once in The Lord of the Rings, without any context or explanation, does nothing to clarify their nature as angelic or divine beings. The books never define who they are or what they represent; they’re just dropped in as mysterious references.
>For a reader encountering LotR alone, these names mean nothing more than vague, mythic figures. There’s no indication within the narrative itself that Oromë or the Valar are “greater angels” or gods. Understanding their full nature requires turning to The Silmarillion or Tolkien’s other writings, which are outside the main text.
You sound like an atheist.

>>211604996
Christianity descends from Judaism. Jesus was a Jew. So was Mohammad.

>>211604864
>Irrelevant. It’s all shared.
No that's reductionist conflation. There is a distinct demarcation between catholic beliefs and the german pagan beliefs.
If the catholic church wasn't in a degraded state in Tolkien's time (who lived in Church of England administered England anyway, so extra lightweight), he would have been charged with heresy for writing LotR.

>The war for the ring is actually chiefly based on Tolkien’s time in the world war.
He debunked the nazi parallel so it's not that. War will colour anything in general.

>>211605052
>Doesn’t matter. He was name dropped. The Valar are mentioned. “The One” is mentioned. Tolkien had all of this angel bullshit in mind from the very beginning.
Yes, in his mind. Not on the page. As I said a dozen times. You have been decisively btfo.
>You sound like an atheist.
>>211603548

If Tolkien encountered you people he would have made his books a lot more obviously Christian just to piss you guys off

>>211605104
I agree, The Lord of the Rings and the Hobbit are far more explicitly Jewish than Christian in their themes and symbols. For example, in The Hobbit, the story of the twelve dwarves reclaiming their lost homeland under the mountain strongly echoes the Jewish experience of exile and return to a promised land. This theme of a scattered people striving to regain what was lost is a powerful, recurring motif in Jewish history and literature, far more than in Christian narratives.

>>211605117
>No that's reductionist conflation. There is a distinct demarcation between catholic beliefs and the german pagan beliefs.
Nope. No modern day religion is special. Sorry.

>He debunked the nazi parallel so it's not that
It wasn’t about the Nazis, it was about the horrors of nature and its abuse.

>War will colour anything in general.
So will religion.

>>211604987
Nope

Tolkiensisters… what did our based christian mean by this?

>>211605132
>You have been decisively btfo
Lol, whatever you say. Tolkien still disagrees with you. It must be hard trying to reconcile that. I have sympathy for you, in a way. Pity, more like.

>>211605195
Tolkien explicitly said he based the dwarves on the Jews. This isn’t the sort of win you think it is.

>>211604946
>She doesn’t even see what she does as magic.
Neither do witches. Often time theyjust practicing their own religion.

>>211604987
You replied to the wrong guy, I'm the one that said LotR is 85% pagan.
Based on what yiu said it's still 95% pagan, christians adopting pagan beliefs don't make the pagan beliefs christian, it makes those elements of christian pagan.

You are all wrong. Tolkien literally said that writings by feminist author Simone de Beauvoir were "the keyspring of the Lord of the Rings".

>>211605251
>Neither do witches. Often time theyjust practicing their own religion.
Depends on the witch. Depends on the religion. They either treated it as magic or “no it’s something better!” like ironic idiots.

>>211592528 (OP)
my sis in law hates the movies but love the rangs of power.

>>211592823
>death of the author is bad when I say so but good when I say so you media illiterate manchild
fucking libshits and their doublethink. you honestly deserve getting removed from society

>>211605251
>christians adopting pagan beliefs don't make the pagan beliefs christian
So Judaism isn’t actually Judaism it’s actually Zoroastrianism. Okay. You don’t know how religion works. It adopts and it evolves.

>>211605239
>Tolkien explicitly said he based the dwarves on the Jews
He literally said the opposite.

>>211605321
Chuds use this doublethink all the time though

>>211605321
It’s incredible how hard they will try to deny the Christian themes, when the man is in record saying it’s based on Christian themes.

And yet, here we are, arguing with ESL pajeets for almost 200 posts.

>>211605199
>No modern day religion is special.
Never said that, and you didn't refute my point. Paganism is not a modern day religion anyway. It's a collection of folk beliefs and mythologized history that predates Christianity.

>It wasn’t about the Nazis, it was about the horrors of nature and its abuse.
Quite, which has no bearing at all on religion.

>So will religion.
Sure, about 15% christian as I said

>>211605333
You just exposed your illiteracy. Not even media illiteracy, just regular illiteracy.

>>211605333
You’re not reading that correctly.

Tolkien stated that he thought of his Dwarves as reminiscent of "the Jews", and that the Dwarves' words were "constructed to be Semitic". The name Goldberg literally means gold mountain or gold hill.

>>211605374
>the man is in record saying it’s based on Christian themes.
Yeah but where are they within the actual LotR books?

>>211605379
>Never said that, and you didn't refute my point
I did, because you claimed “it’s all pagan” when you can say the same thing about Christianity, the same way all religions are just more accepted death cults.

>>211605379
>It's a collection of folk beliefs and mythologized history that predates Christianity.
Actually, anything that isn’t Christian can be argued as pagan. That’s how it was used in history. Until they stole pagan shit for themselves.

>>211605476
Just say you’re retarded anon. Call it a day.

There are explicit references to pagan mythology in the LotR books:
>Gandalf appears verbatim in the Dvergatal section of the Völuspá
>So do Thorin, Dwalin, Fili, Kili, Gloin, Bifur, Bombur, Nori, Dori
>Classic Norse dwarves are smiths (like the Sons of Ivaldi), live underground, and create magical object, same as Tolkien’s dwarves
>Elves are also from North mythology, as is the distinction between Ljósálfar (light elves) and Dökkálfar (dark elves)
>The name "Middle Earth" = Miðgarðr, the world of men in Norse myth (Tolkien letter 211: "‘Middle-earth’ is not my own invention. It is a modernization or alteration… of an old word for the inhabited world of Men")
>Mirkwood = Myrkviðr appears in multiple Norse texts (e.g., Völundarkviða, Helgakviða Hundingsbana) as a dark, perilous forest.
>The Shire calendar (Appendix D of the Lotr books) mentions Yule, a pre-Christian pagan festival
>Narsil/Andúril is a direct parallel to the shattered and reforged sword Gram in the Völsunga Saga
>Smaug, a Dragon guarding a and cursed treasure hoard is a clear reference to Fáfnir (Tolkien even notes this influence in his lecture "Beowulf: The Monsters and the Critics" where he calls Fáfnir the "archetypal northern dragon.")
>Balrog’s fire and shadow duality resembles Surtr, the fire giant who leads Ragnarok with a flaming sword.
So if someone were to say "there are numerous references to pagan mythology in the LotR books", it is very easy to look at the actual text and point these out at evidence.
Yet, nobody can do the same for the alleged numerous Christian references. They just have to repeat "HE HECKIN' SAID SO HIMSELF!!" over and over, or lie about stuff from the Silmarillion being in the LotR books.

>>211605291
>Depends on the witch. Depends on the religion.
In christianity and catholicism they do not hold that distinction. That's pretty much one of the defining features of christianity.
"thou shalt not suffer a witch to live" - exodus 22:18
Neither islam either. Original judaism had leeway.
>>211605324
Zoroastrianism and judaism aren't pagan.
Paganism ring this context refers to the pan-european beliefs that predate asian religions, that of the germans, the celts, everyone west of Greece before the soread of christianity. Zoroastrianism and judaism are asian religions and beliefs.

Tolkien said it is Christian.
But it isn’t allegory.
End of story

>>211605615
>Zoroastrianism and judaism aren't pagan.
Anything that isn’t Abrahamic can be argued as pagan. It was an isolating “you ain’t us” practice. It’s not limited to Europe.
>that predate asian religions
Lol.

>>211605617
The sole evidence that chuds can produce to prove that LotR is a Catholic work is in Tolkien #Letter 142.
So without that letter, chuds literally have NOTHING.
End of story.

>join Christian dating site
>loads of cute girls who are interested in me
>actually forces to stop being a neet so I can start seeing them

>>211605480
>>211605529
Christianity is not pagan. The definition of pagan is its distinction from Christianity. Just because Christianity borrowed holy days, observations, and historical figures does not make Christianity pagan.

Paganism weren't all death cults and were not monotheistic.

>>211605615
>In christianity and catholicism they do not hold that distinction. That's pretty much one of the defining features of christianity.
Bishops behind closed doors practiced legitimate demonology, attempting to bind demons as Solomon did. Moses, Solomon, etc, were God-sanctioned wizards. You also had people trying to summon angels using white magic.

>>211605476
definite and concrete concepts of good and evil. you leftoids practice Orwellian moral relativity every minute of the day, which is incompatible with modern Progressivism.

>>211605728
He isn’t saying Christianity is pagan you dumb Pajeet. He’s saying Zoroastrianism can be argued as pagan. Judaism and Islam aren’t pagan.

>>211605672
>Anything that isn’t Abrahamic can be argued as pagan.
That's what I said.
>>that predate asian religions
>Lol
You don't think native celts and eureopeans had their own beliefs prior to semitic ones?

>>211605728
>Paganism weren't all death cults and were not monotheistic.
All religions are cults, and all religions is attempting to reconcile life and death. All religion is a matter of faith and mystery, and death is the ultimate dark/mystery.

Cope.

>>211605771
>definite and concrete concepts of good and evil
even a chud can't be retarded enough to think that they can pass this off as a uniquely christian theme

>>211605785
>You don't think native celts and eureopeans had their own beliefs prior to semitic ones?
You’re essentially waging a war against all of Asia’s history by claiming that European religions are a lot older. The oldest religion in the world is probably some form of animism.

>>211605373
the difference is they see a character and say "wow that's a cool character". Meanwhile, you see a villain and assume the whole world works under this same framework
>HOMELANDER IS LIKE TRUMP
>THIS IS LITERALLY LIKE THE HANDMAID'S TALE
>UKR/RUS IS LITERALLY STAR WARSSSS WE ARE ALL LUKE SKYWALKER
rightoids have severe issues, but holy shit, they are grounded by a sense of objective reality that you people completely lack
btw don't @me, I don't argue with mental muppets.

>>211605615
>In christianity and catholicism they do not hold that distinction
Yes they do. Miracles are magic by any other name lol. So is science.

>>211605902
>rightoids are grounded by a sense of objective reality
Then why did they feel personally attacked when Mon Mothma said "there is such a thing as objective reality" and claimed that this is an evil leftist claim?

>>211605902
The only reason they compare Sauron (or Morgoth) to Satan is because Tolkien implied it. Liberals are mentally ill since they see orange man everywhere.

>>211605783
Even if zoroastrianism can be argued as pagan it's irrelevant because we're specifically talking about prechristian european paganism. Like odin. In b4 pdin and nordic runes came from turkey.

>>211605962
>Even if zoroastrianism can be argued as pagan it's irrelevant because we're specifically talking about prechristian european paganism
Okay. But it’s moot since Gandalf is based on Odin, and other bearded folk heroes, as well as guardian angels that act as humans. Odin also did that. Odin is a very early example of an angel guide. Angels are humanoid like pagan deities, while the Judeo-Christian God is larger than life. Too large.

>>211606055
Shut up LarPagan, Gandalf is based on Jesus, he literally is resurrected. Did Odin ever do that too? Nope.

>>211603243
holy shit fuck off.
in LoTR it's a binary: either you're good or evil. There is no ambiguity. Yes, you can become evil, but it's still one of the other. there is no character like Jamie Lannister for example.

>>211606141
Gollum

>>211605879
>You’re essentially waging a war against all of Asia’s history by claiming that European religions are a lot older.
You what? Never implied anything of the sort. The fact stated was that europeans had their own beliefs and religions prior to the roman spread of Christianity, which we have evidence of and is pretty much a given. Hellenism, Hinduism, Zoroastrianism, and Egyptian beliefs are older than judaism and are at least as old as the ancient Canaanite one that worshipped El.

>>211606104
Odin hung himself on a tree or something. He was on the verge of death.

>>211605914
>Miracles are magic
Only when performed by angels or sanctioned prophets.

>>211606177
Okay I don’t disagree with any of that.

>>211606163
yes he failed the test and became evil. it's a tragic story, sure, but he's still evil

>>211606055
That's why I said LotR is more in line with paganism (of the prechristian european variety). 85%, with a 15% christian framework.

>>211592823
If it was a pagan work, Sauron and the forces of evil would've been the good guys.

>>211606293
Gollum is literally a reminder that people (or creatures) aren’t always purely good or evil but can contain elements of both. Hence he is both Smeagol and Gollum. I can't believe someone could be so dumb to miss that. Have you ever considered suicide?

>>211606323
Maybe. But Tolkien was still an overarching Christian who wrote it with Christian themes in mind. He just didn’t make it obvious because he hated allegory and wanted his readers to see and find their own meaning in his works.

It’s even applicable to science fiction.

Why aren't these women voting for the Christian president? Lmao

>>211606141
Was Denethor good or evil?
Were the Wild men of Dunland good or evil? What about the Southrons?

>>211606163
you're suggesting that because Gollum vacillated between good and evil that LoTR is morally ambiguous? No, incorrect.
Gollum is a multifaceted and interesting character, but it is still clear which actions/motivations are evil and which are good. His desire for the Ring is selfish and evil, and him taking it would serve no good for the world.

>>211606141
>there is no character like Jamie Lannister for example.
Isildur, Bilbo, Boromir, Frodo (remember he does a heel turn right the end), Gollum, Saruman, Theoden all shift alignment inone way or another back and forth. Probably more in Silmarillion.

>>211606460
Denethor was misguided. He is even compared to a mad wizard in the books. Gandalf’s frustrating staring contest with him is one of the funnier moments. He’s brain fucked by the Palantir and Gandalf didn’t expect that.

>>211593892
Kikes spew all this jewbabble but then you ask them why they don't just become Christians and they squeal like little piggies

>>211606550
He suspected he had it, but he probably didn’t want to believe it.

>>211593391
Shame that Christians breed while fedoras all die childless

>>211606681
Christians don’t breed enough. Muslims breed like rabbits. I hate seeing a wrapped fat lady followed by her ten devil spawn. I enjoy seeing white couples walking their blonde haired kids in the park. But apparently I’m a Nazi?

>>211593464
Fact: Christianity also appropriated Greek philosophy

>>211606547
none of it is morally ambiguous. the good guys are good. sure theoden may lament the evil he is causing by going to war, but his actions are 100% good and justified considering his opponent is objectively evil.
Contrast that with Robert Baratheon's decision to try and assassinate Deanerys

>>211606425
>“In the weaving of The Lord of the Rings, I endeavoured to rekindle the spirit of that pre-Christian mythology which once flourished in the lands of ancient England and Scandinavia. Though the tales of English mythology themselves are for the most part lost to us, the heroic temper that shaped them, the Northern courage, is still discernible, not least in the stirring words of The Battle of Maldon. This courage is not to be measured in feats of arms alone, but in the steadfast will that confronts doom unflinchingly, the resolve that holds fast though defeat be nigh certain. It is a courage born of mind and spirit, stronger far than mere bodily might. Frodo and Sam, small and unassuming, yet steadfast to the last, walk that path of Northern courage, facing a darkness that brooks no hope of triumph, save that which springs from duty and loyalty. Thus, The Lord of the Rings may be read as a faint echo of those lost myths and heroic creeds, a testament to the enduring spirit of a world before the coming of new faiths, and a homage to that unyielding will which lies at the heart of all true heroism.
-J. R. R. Tolkien

>>211592528 (OP)
What is christian about a story having good guys and bad guys. Is Sonic the Hedgehog Christian?

>>211606541
Motivation yes but actions no. Gandalf has whole quote where he chastises Frodo for judging Gollum's actions.

>>211606547
That's the thing, Jamie Lannister doesn't "shift alignment", he's a complex character who variously does "good" and "evil" actions for complex personal reasons

>>211606541
I am saying that LotR contains morally ambiguous characters.

>>211606844
Sounds like Boromir when he wanted to use the ring to save Gondor.

>>211606787
Cool. I already knew all of that.

He’s also said this:

— The Lord of the Rings' is of course a fundamentally religious and Catholic work; unconsciously so at first, but consciously in the revision. That is why I have not put in, or have cut out practically all references to anything like 'religion,' to cults or practices, in the imaginary world. For the religious element is absorbed into the story and symbolism.

It became progressively more and more Christian as time went on.

What’s your response?

>>211606753
Why is it objectively evil for Boromir to want to take the ring away from Frodo so that it doesn't get handed to Sauron but instead can be used by Aragorn to defeat Sauron and protect the suffering people of Gondor?

>>211606927
>Cool. I already knew all of that.
No you didn't. You never read Tolkien, you just repeat what you saw on pol memes.

>>211606940
It just is, ok? Tolkien was a fucking simpleton who thought that you can either be purely good or purely evil. That is why his stories are so boring.

>>211606927
"bitch you're going senile"
(not the guy you're to replying to)

>>211605410
>>211605452
I'm reading better than you. You mistake inspiration for language structure as symbolizing.

>>211607032
Learn English.

>>211605606
Its over for tradlapers...

>>211607100
Take your own advice you poltarded faggot.

>>211606927
>Letter 269:
>With regard to The Lord of the Rings, I cannot claim that be a sufficient theologian to say whether my notion of orcs is heretical or not. I don't feel under any obligation to make my sotry firt with formalized Christian theology, though I actually intended it to be consonant with Christian thought and belief, which is asserted somewhere, Book Five, page 190, where Frodo asserts that the orcs are not evil in origin.

>>211607288
>my sotry firt
What did Tolkien mean by that?

>>211606927
>>211607031
Again not the guy you're replying to, serious answer this time.
My critical reading of this passage would be that Tolkien is lamenting his failing at emulating germanic paganism despite his best attempts to do so no doubt because he lived and was educated in an environment that was indelibly influenced by Christianity down to its most minute details.
I would not take his self-critical reading of his own work as fact though. It's possible his proximity to his own work blinds him to the gestalt and overall spirit of the work.
To me, LotR does not feel Christian at all. Christianity preaches no love nor respect for the natural world which pervades Tolkien's works. Christianity is austere, authoritarian, rigid, and vengeful (especially catholicism) in spite of its ostensible preaching for love.

>>211607343
>story fit
My bad.

>>211595949
Why don't Israelis call themselves Israelites?

>>211592823
yeah

>>211607602
“Israeli” is a contemporary national identity tied to the modern state, regardless of religious or ethnic background. It includes Jews, Arabs, Druze, and others who hold citizenship, and not just descendants of the twelve tribes of Israel.

Hope that helps!

>>211606984
Everyone knows Gandalf is based on a mixture of Odin and Jesus anon.

>>211608105
What? Who are you even responding to at this point?

>>211608149
Everyone knows Tolkien ripped elves and dwarves from Germanic myth anon.

>>211600613
>conveniently leaving-out that it mentions Christianity to "rile up" atheists

>>211606425
>It’s even applicable to science fiction.
Literally how?

>>211601768
God sending a mortal agent who sacrifices himself to defeat save people. Descends into a underground hell and gets ressurected on the third day is pretty on the nose.

>>211602560
LMAO keep posting, bro. Keep getting angrier & angrier. LotR will retroactively become an Atheist/Pagan-faggot masterpiece if you do.

>>211600498
Every main character is based on Jesus. Aragorn is king who returns, who and has healing hands. Frodo suffers for all kind.

>>211601166
Eddas were written by Catholic who wrote that Odin and Thor were Trojan war veterans. The reason why we have knowledge of Dwarves, Elves and many other mythological creatures is because Christians, often monks preserved the knowledge.
P.S.
Wizards in Tolkien Mythos are just angels.

>>211608490
>Christians preserved knowledge of pagan mythology and its creatures
>Therefore, these mythological creatures are ackchually christian
>Also, the Illiad is a Catholic story
Wow... the power of Chud logic

>>211608490
I didn't say that they are Christian, I said that it's ok for Christians to use those concepts

How the fuck are people discovering these movies 20 years later? How the fuck have so many faggots seen so few movies?

>>211603880
The revision sucked dick though.

>God knocked Gollum into the lava

>>211609250
It’s incredible isn’t it? The 21st century? Brain rot everywhere. Everyone is isolated within their own information bubble. No one even knows what’s good anymore.

>>211606789
it is yeah

>>211609250
the movies are ancient at this point dude, first one came out in 2001, that's a few years before the average anon was even born

>>211609819
>2001 is a few years before the average anon was born

Shut the fuck up you zoomer retard, I was 19 when I was talking about these movies on here. There are gifs and memes made about these movies older than your existence.

>>211593193
all is christ no matter if they use different names or symbols, dummy

>>211609592
>>211609250
>>211609994
>NOOOO WHY ARENT YOU MAKING MY ANCIENT BOOMER MOVIES REEEE

>>211611371
You were weaned on crap.
You will never know what true art is.
You will never know what it was like going to the theatre and seeing these stories for the first time.

It’s a religious experience.

>>211605726
>Christian dating site
such as?

>>211609994
You are 19 right now, zoomie.

>>211600178
200+ seething chud posts later and they still haven't been able to come up with anything other than the copes of the chuddie from the picture

>>211611785
here, I came up with this pic related

>>211611785
>>211611850
You’re so cringe it’s amazing

>>211608320
See >>211600417

>>211593193
Lembas represents communion. Trust me, I was at an Evangelical church. Tolkien and Lewis are accepted as Christian writers and their work is acceptable.

>>211593290
Actually I remember him (or someone) posting this in about 2018

>>211614896
Lembas bread actually represents the mars bar. You’re not you when you’re hungry.