Wait a minute...if there's no giant squid then what did the Comedian discover that made him so upset at the very start of the film?

>>212492832 (OP)
Snyder didn't think about it that hard

>>212492832 (OP)
He discovered ozymandias plot for Nuclear annihilation

>>212492832 (OP)

The secret Silk Spectre tapes

>>212492832 (OP)
he saw an early screening of BvS

He saw that all of Snyder's biggest fans were street shitting Indian subhumans. Can't blame him for going off.

>>212492999
>you kiss your mother with that mouth?

>>212492832 (OP)
What happens in the novel? he sees a giant squid?

>>212492832 (OP)
The nuke plot, you know the thing they replaced the giant squid with? Literally the only decision he made in this movie that showed any creative agency on his part and it's the one thing people latch onto.
Not the fucked up pacing or the omission of damn near every subplot or the glorification of the violence that Moore was trying to show as disgusting and brutal.
The lack of a giant squid is why this movie is bad.

>>212493297
Hey buddy I don’t pay money to get blueballed I paid money to see the giant squid

>>212493251
Ozymandias teleports a giant squid-like creature in the middle of manhattan, creating mass destruction and death, with the goal of uniting he world against an interdimensional threat.
The creature is completely man made by scientists and writers who work in secret on a remote island, handsomely paid by ozymandias for their silence before being murdered in an explosion.
The comedian was on the island at some point if I remember it right and understood ozymandias' plan, which prompted him to question everything about himself.

>>212493297
>glorification of the violence that Moore was trying to show as disgusting and brutal.
Uh what? Rorschach bites a guy's cheek off and throws hot oil onto a nigger. Those are pretty brutal condemnations of violence.

>>212492832 (OP)
This >>212492953
He found a giant teleporter that could explode a bomb.

>>212493657
There were a couple moments that were too brutal to make cool, but Snyder put his slow down speed up punch bullshit into damn near every fight scene. You can't tell me that wasn't to try and make it look cool.

>>212493542
Is it just me or does the movie's version works better? Instead of a squid Ozy frames Dr Manhattan for the nuclear attack, someone who the masses were already unnerved by. Seems the more emotional and character-based route to take

>>212493881
Even Dr. Manhattan still thought that was just for free energy experiments though so how would Comedian have figured it out otherwise?

>>212493915
It doesn't work because of the initial plot hole it creates. >>212493921
And for the fact that Dr. Manhattan is explicitly an American superweapon so the idea that him destroying so many millions would do anything other than unite the rest of the world against America is just childish.

>>212493915
It doesn't really make any sense to unify the world because Dr. Manhattan is an American asset, so if he went rogue the entire world would just blame America even if they also had casualties. The squid works better imo since it's actually seen as a true otherwordly threat people would put aside their differences against.

>>212493956
There's no plot hole, just a lack of info over how the comedian discovered Ozy's plan. There's no contradictory information here, we don't need to know every single bit of background info for it to work

>>212493915
It honestly works better in the movie, but doing that in the comic would've cut out a ton of subplots that added to the overall story. The interractions between the artists he kidnapped, the amount of time and resources he spent planning and hiding his shit wouldn't have been as necessary or generated as large of a papertrail and while not really important it would've made it harder to explain why he had that mutant cat thing as a pet.

>>212493915
It's better for the movie. The squid was a meta comentary on comic books.
>>212493987
"He" attacked USA too.

>>212494212
>"He" attacked USA too.
It doesn't matter when American scientists are responsible for his creation in the first place. The world would still condemn America for his actions. He's literally called "Doctor Manhattan" after all.

>>212492832 (OP)
This movie really is proof that Snyder cant fucking read

>>212494212
That's why I said "even though America also had casualties". It's still an American asset going rogue on the whole world. Everyone would blame America. If the U.S lost control of its nukes and nuked everyone else, including a few of their own cities, people would still, rightfully, blame the U.S.

>>212494289
>>212494212
Also the entire fear of the Soviets is that Dr. Manhattan will destroy them, which is why the Cold War is prolonged in this universe. The idea that they wouldn't just immediately launch their arsenal at the U.S the second they get a reading that Dr. Manhattan has blown up Moscow is dumb.

just started reading the book recently. I'm 200 something pages in. It's good but those infodumps (excerpts from a memoir or other things) are not needed. Just tell a story with a comic itself, don't do that lazy shit. That's heavy handed exposition

I dropped snyder movie after 20 minutes because it was crap

>>212494580
>Just tell a story with a comic itself, don't do that lazy shit. That's heavy handed exposition
I'm sorry but this is a bullshit take. If you don't like reading pure text that's fine, it can hurt the pacing for sure, but there's nothing particularly lazy or heavy handed about the mixed media shit in Watchmen. It isn't even really exposition most of it is purely for additional character development and doesn't cover real plot points, like the magazine interview with Ozy or Nite Owl's little article about bird watching.
'Show don't tell' as a complaint is usually used as a critique of narration, not text passages. That said personally I think it's a bullshit criticism for narration too.

>>212494860
>If you don't like reading pure text that's fine
where did that come from? I made my point very clear. Why are you being so dishonest?

>>212494860
>That said personally I think it's a bullshit criticism for narration too.
It's one of the very few criticisms that is just objectively correct. You literally can't argue with it. If you're watching a movie and you have a voice over explaining to you something that should've been presented in the movie, then that's just undebatably bad

>>212495307
>where did that come from
I'm not accusing you of being illiterate or anything, I'm just saying there's valid reasons to not like text in comics that aren't the reason you gave, such as the effect on pacing. Which I state immediately after that.
>why are you being so dishonest
You're the one using that statement as an excuse to ignore the entire rest of my post that addresses your actual point.

>>212493297
>Literally the only decision he made in this movie that showed any creative agency on his part and it's the one thing people latch onto.
It's a stupid change. The giant psychic squid works because it makes the US and Soviets both think there's an external threat they need to band together to oppose. Telling the Soviets that Dr. Manhattan nuked NYC only serves to make the Soviets more jumpy about Dr. Manhattan's pro-US attitude.

>>212494580
>I'm 200 something pages in. It's good but those infodumps (excerpts from a memoir or other things) are not needed. Just tell a story with a comic itself, don't do that lazy shit. That's heavy handed exposition
Anon is NOT ready to read Alan Moore's 1963.

>>212495460
if you're making a comic book and you're unable to convey something withing that framework then that's a failure, to some degree at least.

>>212495429
>You literally can't argue with it.
You literally can. If something works, it works. It's that simple. Saying some technicality like 'this is a visual medium, show don't tell' doesn't cancel out the fact that it worked. There's no cheating in storytelling.
>you have a voice over explaining to you something that should've been presented in the movie, then that's just undebatably bad
The issue is whether or not it should've been presented in the movie, which varies a lot depending on what that thing is. Some actions and events aren't necessarily worth fully showing.

>>212492832 (OP)
Never read the comics. I surmised that the Comedian learned about Veidt's plans and was disturbed by it and didn't know what to do with it. The Comedian was a cynical anti-hero type character but he was still a hero and was probably considering revealing Veidt's plan to the whole world or even try to stop it himself, but Veidt got to him and killed him before the Comedian could put himself together and make a decision (and he was a broken alcoholic lecher of a man, but still a massive threat to Veidt's entire operation).

>>212495737
if your work of art can't stand on its own feet it mens it's flawed

>>212495603
>if you're making a comic book and you're unable to convey something withing that framework then that's a failure, to some degree at least.
There's a difference between being unable and thinking it unnecessary. Having OG Night Owl's memoir story presented in comic form wouldn't have worked as well imo, nor would showing the interview between Ozymandias and the journalist in comic form.
The whole point of the text portions is that they're text that exists in that universe, and which some of the characters wrote/read. By having you read them like they would, rather than watching them happen as an outside observer, the intention is to create immersion.

Whether that worked or not is debatable, but my point is it was a very deliberate decision, not something where they were too lazy or incapable of doing it a different way.

>>212495877
What do you mean stand on it's own feet?

Why wasnt this in the film?

Hmmmm........

>>212495801
>The Comedian was a cynical anti-hero type character but he was still a hero
They make a point to show that he’s a maniac and a rapist. He’s not a hero at all.

>>212495906
needing voice over or some texts to supplement it

>>212495909
DC really should have gotten an American to go through the text and clean it up. There's a lot of British-sounding phrasing throughout, like the New Frontiersman slogan.

Americans don't even know what this panel means.

>>212496005
Elaborate.

>>212495982
Shutup, pleb.

>>212496045
Throughout the Watchmen series, phrases and statements spoken by characters or seen in print are phrased in a way that a "Yank" (American) would not use. This is because Alan Moore, the writer, is a native of Britain.

Our right wing hero!

Oh, hes just a bitch after all. Just like the rest of them.

>>212496096
You mean you cant read English? Its the easiest language one can learn.

>>212495990
The voiceover is part of the work. It's part of its own feet, not some outside after-the-fact addition to the story. It's just an easier, less innovative aspect of it.
The use of voiceover may make it less impressive as visual storytelling compared to something that doesn't use it, but it doesn't make it objectively bad or a failure.
The quality of a narrative work is more than just how effectively and originally it uses the medium.
And all of that is kind of irrelevant in the case of Watchmen because
A) It does a ton of experimental shit that pushed the medium in unexpected ways
And
B) You can literally ignore the text portions entirely and the story still works perfectly fine.

>>212494212
Prigozhin and his Wagner PMC also killed Russians, but he wasn't seen as a unifying threat. If anything, NATO allowed countries were cheering that Russians are killing each other - just like Soviets would cheer on America vs Manhattan conflict.

>>212493297
the rest of the stuff makes it more shallow, but the non-squid part makes the whole thing nonsensical

>>212496569
Fair point.

>>212495982
>Nooooooo he misgendered a tranny! He's the most evil guy ever!
Go back to plebbit.

>>212493297
>the glorification of the violence that Moore was trying to show as disgusting and brutal

>Rorschach breaking the fingers of a sick old man during an interrogation
>Topknot gangsters suffering gory compound fractures during the alley fistfight
>Comedian beating Silk Spectre's face bloody during his attempted rape
>Ozymandias' secretary getting shot full of holes during his assassination attempt
>Comedian drunkenly shooting the mother of his unborn child in Vietnam
>Fat prisoner's arms sawed off while he begs for mercy in prison
>Owl Man beating an unarmed Topknot gangster until he spits up his own teeth

Which one of these wasn't disgusting and brutal?

>>212497239
All of the ones that involved speed-up-slow-down punching to make them look cool, plus anything that happened while Rorschach was in prison because that was 100% directed to make the action look more cool than psychotic.
Comedian raping Silk Spectre and shooting the pregnant woman were the only two I remember that didn't have Snyder fight scene glamour on them.

>>212492832 (OP)
Nudes of your mother

>>212493915
i like the movie version better because it gives dr. manhattan a better reason to leave earth. in the comics he just gets sick of it all, in the movie its because everyone hates him and it makes no sense for him to stay

>>212493915
The squid looked so fucking cool.

>>212493915
It made way more sense at the time to cut the squid because it was the pre Marvel era and movies used to have more.... "decorum". Today, they'd do the squid because who cares anymore, movies are slop anyway, but I get why they hesitated on jumping the shark with a giant squid monster.

>>212492832 (OP)
No one has ever been able to clearly explain why it HAS to be a big stupid looking squid monster and not Doctor Manhattan. For years I've seen people grasp at straws with some vague argument about how the squid represents classic comic book villains and its some sort of commentary on comic book or something, but none of this makes any real sense.

It just comes across as stupid and framing Doctor Manhattan seems like the better ending

>>212493297
you didnt see the 4 hour super retard cut with tales of the black freighter interwoven?

>>212499232
Anons have been explaining it in this thread for the past 3 hours and I don't think anybody brought up that autistic meta commentary reasoning.

>>212497373
rorschach putting the cleaver into the pedo murderer's head was pretty gnarly

>we have to Hollywood-tacticool-ify this comic book that was already fairly muted and grounded and just a good visual stor-
>what about the giant squid?
>axe that, it's too silly

they were so fucking close. just DON'T stop yourselves. i am actually defending capeshit, here.

>>212499473
I didn't even know that existed. Shit, I almost want to see that just out of curiosity.

>>212497239
All of these are cool

One of the most common complaints you’ll see of Snyder’s Watchmen is that the film glorified violence and as a result the characters themselves. It’s often argued that everything from the gratuitous use of slo-mo and meticulously choreographed action sequences to something as minor as more professional-looking costumes played a role in making the characters cooler and more likable than they were in the comics. While the comic certainly avoids some typical flashy action tropes I wouldn’t necessarily say the movie is at odds with the spirit of the comic in that aspect.

Take for example the alley fight in Watchmen.:
https://youtu.be/3uFkyVVyqa0

It’s a familiar setup often seen in action movies: a group of troublemakers crosses the wrong person and ends up paying the price. Typically, these scenarios play out in sanitized fight scenes filled with funny banter and quips. Here, however, the action takes a darker turn, becoming brutally visceral and grotesque. The camera doesn’t shy away from the consequences of the violence as it fixates on the bones breaking through flesh, mangled limbs, and the shattered teeth of the goons who scream in pain. It’s also intercut with a scene where Manhattan learns that people who were once close to him have been getting cancer and he might be the cause. This, combined with the ominous music gives the whole scene a sense of dread rather than catharsis. Contrast this with a similar alleyway fight scene in Wonder Woman and the difference is stark.
https://youtu.be/VjcGcXN0rWE

I feel that whatever change from comics to film were conscious choices Snyder took because the landscape of "film" is different, and so you needed to go for a different trope and feel to pass the same ideas.

>>212499473
Is that real?

>>212499671
it's pretty cool but it's a bit tedious by the end. keep in mind the ultimate cut was put together without snyder, who had already released his director's cut. ultimate cut adds close to 50 minutes IIRC while the director's cut adds 25ish and no TofBF. i do recommend checking out the ultimate version at least once, but your mileage may vary

>>212499772
Another instance is when Niteowl brutally beats up a Knottop gang member after learning of Hollis Mason’s murder. This beatdown is shown almost entirely from the victim’s point of view, with the occasional cut to the gang member’s bloody face and broken teeth. So again the focus here is on how it looks and feels for the guy getting pummeled.
https://youtu.be/zeVm9_prBYA

But the one sequence in Watchmen that best showcases how even the use of slo-mo doesn’t inherently glorify violence is where Manhattan eviscerates a bunch of assassins while Janie looks on in horror. Here the slo-mo isn’t making the action cool but is used to emphasize the dread she feels at witnessing what his sheer destructive power can do to us mere humans.
https://youtu.be/Bop8kb2dgNs

It should also be noted that both Watchmen the movie and the comic aren’t consistent in that regard when it comes to portraying violence. The fight in Veidt’s palace is somewhat conventional and ‘fun’ in both of them. The only instances where the movie overdoes it unlike the comic are the prison escape fight (just one panel in the comic) and the Comedian’s murder (the fight itself is mostly off-panel). At worst one could argue the movie isn’t as consistent with its portrayal of violence as the comic but it by no means undermines the message of the comic. Even the nitpick about the costumes looking professional is relatively minor as the film did try to incorporate certain ridiculous elements that superhero films were known for like nipples in costumes despite its more serious setting.

Essentially i feel that the changes were necessary otherwise you'd lose the very critical message that the comic was trying to transmit if you kept the action as it is in the comic, because then it'd be too much like any other action movie out there. So the focus on the gruesome and visceral stuff was needed to translate that feel that there's something odd about these heroes and their need and abuse of violence.

>>212499772
>The camera doesn’t shy away from the consequences of the violence as it fixates on the bones breaking through flesh, mangled limbs, and the shattered teeth of the goons who scream in pain.
I would argue that the addition of gore and grit doesn't mean they aren't still trying to make the action look cool. A lot of productions try to do the 'have your cake and eat it too' thing with violence where they try to make it look more 'realistic' by showing gore and such and state that they're condeming it when really they're clearly jusy trying to make it look gritty and cool.
>I feel that whatever change from comics to film were conscious choices Snyder took because the landscape of "film" is different, and so you needed to go for a different trope and feel to pass the same ideas.
I disagree. While I'll say it's not entirely Snyder's fault because it's probably damn near impossible to properly translate Watchmen to film without losing something significant, his presentation of it makes it seem like he had a rather superficial grasp of the work to begin with.

>>212500021
>A lot of productions try to do the 'have your cake and eat it too' thing with violence where they try to make it look more 'realistic' by showing gore and such and state that they're condemning it when really they're clearly jusy trying to make it look gritty and cool.
But that is true for the comic as well. In the comic, Moore and Gibbons incorporated traditional formal elements, such as a structured 3×3 panel grid and a predominantly three-color palette. However, unlike the vibrant primary colors typical of more cheerful comics, they emphasized secondary colors, creating a darker and more nuanced aesthetic.
As a result, they were able to achieve a gritty feel without relying too much on blacks, greys, and browns that you’d expect from a typical grimdark comic. So what I am trying to get at is that the comic doesn’t stop being subversive because it utilizes some of the stylistic conventions and tropes of the stories they were deconstructing. What matters more is how those conventions were utilized and even more important is the content that all those elements are used to illustrate. I would argue for the most part the movie follows a similar path. While it is true that Watchmen has Zack Snyder’s signature use of slo-mo and impeccable choreography, the action isn’t always as ‘fun’ as it would be in a typical superhero movie. Not to mention that More and Gibson also had their fun with some of the paneling when depicting the action. Rorschach failed escape is one such moment.

>>212499884
yes, it's close to an hour longer than theatrical with added scenes and whatnot. "the ultimate cut" is the official name

>>212499609
>“capeshit”
such a fucking cringy ass word. everyone who uses it is a fat tranime nonce.

>>212492999
wtf? Do you have more? Were they a couple?

>>212500282
Interesting
I will watch it out of curiosity
Haven't seen this flick in a very long time

>>212499232
See
>>212493956

>>212500461
The acting is BAD.

>>212499473
I really didn't like the black freighter stuff. Just like the kid reading it says waste of my damn time.

>men get arrested
>dogs get put down
moore can lick my bag, the pedo deserved exactly what rorschach gave him

What happened to him?

>>212501866
Moore saying Rorschach was 100% wrong about everything rather than just unstable and over the deep end is mostly just a reaction to his hatred for fans who glorify and identify with Rorscach too much. He was not originally so condemning of the character, he just genuinely hates the general comic book fanbase.

>>212501866
Based. Everyone who got fucked up by Rorschach got what was coming to them.

>World is kept at peace by the terror of Dr Manhattan making America effectively the only country with a nuclear response
>Sneeder Plot is to have Ozy use an elaborate scheme to drive off Dr. Manhattan, then destroy millions of lives to convince everyone Dr Manhattan is still hanging around as a threat

Snyder is a brainlet and a hack.

>>212501979
If you've ever been to a comic convention you understand exactly where he was coming from

>>212502101
>Snyder is a brainlet and a hack
So... not too far from the author of the source material.

>>212502567
Alan Moore got lost in the sauce of 70s/80s liberalism, as anyone getting tons of hippy pussy would, but regardless of his dumb views he's clearly an intelligent and nuanced writer.

>>212492832 (OP)
The plot to use a bomb framing manhattan. The scientists were kidnapped anyways. So there was a conspiration he could discover.

Bad movie based on a bad graphic novel but the ending of the movie is better than the graphic novel and this is coming from someone who loves fantastic shit