Thread 213416474

Will it be good, /tv/?

>>213416474 (OP)
Yeah he was always black coded.

>>213416474 (OP)
qrd?

Rereading Citadel rn. Who do you think won the story telling competition? I really liked the cock story

>>213416766
Michael Bay was going to make a film adaption but backed out because he realized it's unfilmable

>>213416790
I liked the Fisherman’s story, kinda heartbreaking. But yes, the Cock story is technically the best story of the three that were told.

>>213416888
That never stopped them from filming Dune.
Where there's a fanbase, there's money to be made.

>>213416474 (OP)
does anyone find it weird that sev basically never wears a shirt for the entire story

>>213416953
Dune is nowhere near as bad as New Sun.
And it's not that popular, only among internet autists

>>213416953
but BotNS is niche enough where you really have to make it right to draw a decent audience.the story is told through an unreliable narrator, he will just gloss over some details or leave up it up interpretation. The story works great as a book because you’re basically reading his memoir. but as a movie I don’t see how you can translate.

>>213417122
They did it with American Psycho

>>213417054
That's one of the least weird things about new sun

>>213416474 (OP)
If I enjoyed all of the frank herbert dune books except for children should I read this series? Are the two series even comparable?

I can't think of a worse book to adapt to the big screen. Don't get me wrong, it's a great read - but the idea of the average moviegoer sitting in the theatre and being able to stomach Severian fighting with a fucking flower is laughable.

>>213416888
>it's unfilmable
qrd?

>>213416888
People are way too quick to call relatively straightforward stories "unfilmable."

Like, this shit is not Finnegans Wake. It's not even as esoteric as Malazan. It's just kind of weird.

/tv/ memed me into reading this series and im glad

>>213417456
You should read Malazan Book of the Fallen while listening to Caladan Brood
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=c6wzijeiClA

>>213417054
Sev is borderline autistic, and quite frankly a fucking weirdo. I’m shocked he’s able to have sex with so many different women.

When sev reads stories from the brown book or the storytelling contest - do you show the story or literally just show sev reading a book out loud?

>>213417597
Pretty cool I like it

>>213417491
>deadly flower that kills you if it touches you
>Sev clearly gets stabbed by it
>presumably dies and brushes it off
>enemy runs away in terror
>this sequence of events never gets acknowledged by anyone
i can see how this might be a bit frustrating to watch

>>213417575
Malazan seems interesting but it seems way too long. Ive lost patience for these 15 book fantasy series

>>213417070
>it's not that popular, only among internet autists
Are you talking about Dune or the New Sun?

>>213417644
Hell yeah

>>213417456
it's way better than dune

>>213417666
Didn't the claw bring him back?

>>213417575
>relatively straightforward stories

>>213417676
Its a journey taken over time and it tries your soul

>>213417699
that’s not explained in the first book

>>213417666
Severian "resurrects" Triskele and Dorcas by tweaking their timelines. Why shouldn't he do the same thing for himself?

>>213417721
Well yes, lots of things in the first book aren't explained in the first book.

>>213417721
Yea. Most of the series only makes sense when you reread it. That's probably one reason its considered unfilmable

>>213416474 (OP)
>Will it be good, /tv/?
The answer is always no.

Who do you cast for Sev and Dorcas?

>>213416888
>unfilmable
literally just go film some Brazilians, there you go, bizarre post-apocalyptic fever dream

>>213417678
New Sun, Dune sold millions, Wolfe is niche
>>213417575
How would you translate to a visual medium the PoV narration? The book works because you are trapped in Severian narration trying to piece all the information together.

>>213417977
Isn't that where it takes place?

>>213417699
>>213417721
I thought it was implied later that the Claw was just a big fat placebo anyway and was never actually the source of the supernatural stuff happening around Severian during the bulk of the story?

>>213416474 (OP)
There's no way anyone is adapting material this chud coded

>>213418047
>How would you translate to a visual medium the PoV narration
Literally the same way any PoV narration is done in film. Look at Lolita, another classic unreliable narrator- you just have the narrator narrate things to put across that what you're seeing is how he remembers it- or how he is saying it happened.

Severian should have kept fucking his grandmother, who cares?

One of the problems with showing the story visually is that it'd spoil the slow reveal of the Dying Earth post-post-apocalypse setting right away, rather than the gradual way the books do it

>>213418198
Yea i think your right, thats how he brings the dog back. The power was inside him all along bc he is literally Jesus.

For that matter, everyone always says oh he is such a devout catholic but isn't it blasphemous that his Jesus character is kinda a little shit head?

>>213416693
>Described in full detail in the book as a long haired white guy with strong features, down to the back of his hand
>Black coded
I know this is a troll but what goes through peoples head when making adaptations? Niggers legit say “black coded” for anything these days

>>213418198
The claw is just a symbol, Severian is Christ dolling out miracles

>>213417493
The vast majority of the book is severian getting side tracked in telling you his story. In a sense its a story about his telling of his life. The movie would just be the literal story he is telling with none of the flare or context of the book

>>213418274
It would spoil alot of the reveals. Like baldanders assistant would probably be more obviously an android from the beginning. Same with Jonas

>>213418290
Severian does literally nothing wrong

>>213418329
He’s a rapist

>>213418329
I mean i love the based retard im just thinking from a devout catholic perspective

>>213418345
how so

>>213418329
He executes a lady wrongly accused of being a witch. "It's my job" isn't a good enough reason.

>>213418364
He describes in full detail raping Jolenta

>>213417456
It's way better than Dune imo. Gene Wolfe is my favourite fiction author because of this very series.

>>213418300
There is no particular reason other than that the autistic part of any fandom are full of white liberals who wish they were black or progressive, so they need a some character in their favorite media to be black. A few leaps of logic here and there to accomplish their goal.

>>213418383
its not rape if the woman orgasms

>>213418364
The boat ride with Jolenta, I know it’s not directly said, but the way Severian words it, I can see why it would be interpreted as rape.

I thought /tv/ would be all over Soldier of the Mist instead since the character's sidekick is a nine year old who gets raped.

>>213418318
Yeah, most of the plot relies on Sev being totally naive about anything that isn't causing people excruciating pain and Wolfe being cheeky about when he decides to give things proper descriptions. I think an adaption of the material could be done, it is just a shame that any visual adaption of the material is inevitably going to lose that dynamic from the text. Unless you literally had the visuals lie and change over the course of the film I suppose.

>>213418411
He’s an ubrelible narrator attempting to court the readers (subject of him as Autarch’s) favor. Much of what he says during the story is very likely a whitewashed version of events. Fucking a sleeping woman because she’s hot is rape.

>>213418383
>>213418411
Who do you cast as Jolenta?

Since we're having a fullblown discussion about the books anyway, can any anons explain to me what the FUCK was going on with the braindead soldier who vaguely resembles Jonas? I think that part was probably the most confused I ever got in the story. Did Jonas soul get improperly transferred into the soldier's body? Did it not work because Jonas is a cyborg? Did Severian fuck up trying to use his powers of resurrection? I think I might be too much of a brainlet for this shit

>>213418473
A younger Christina Hendricks unironically

>>213418473
Hunter Schafer

>>213418383
Her pupils turned into hearts, clearly not rape. In fact she was secretly uggo which means she kind of raped him.

>>213418474
Good question. I have no idea

>>213418474
I just chalked it up to cyborg nonsense

>>213418474
Who knows? The book is full of stuff like this. What the fuck happened between book 1 and 2?

>>213418474
I interpreted it as Severian desperately wanting it to be Jonas.

>>213418207
They did it for Fight Club.

>>213418562
I assumed anything left out or glossed over was just Severian carefully constructing the story so that his subjects would worship him as Autarch. God knows what him and Jonas were doing and why he’d purposefully ommit it.

>>213418474
Mobius double reacharound

The most insane moment in the books is when Severian finds a boy named Severian, wanders through the mountains and finds a giant statue of a hand with a ring, watches the boy get vaporized, and then awakens an ancient two head king that he punches to death. What the FUCK even happened there?

>>213418615
Kind of surprising they've never done Hyperion. It has a perfect diverse cast for a modern adaption built right in and works as a stand alone story but also has followup material in case it does well and you want to milk it. I suppose it would be pretty expensive to do it justice, lots of diverse locations for each backstory.

>>213416474 (OP)
I suggested the book to my endocrinologist and now he is huge fan , even bought the fancy "Folio Society" versions.

>>213418723
I just got to the end of the first tale with the priest , heavy shit

>>213418728
Wow those covers are dope

>>213418615
I dont know any book of the new sun fan that wants it adapted , however its fun to brainstorm ideas of casting choices

>>213418761
I think the priest gets the best stuff in Hyperion and Fall of Hyperion. The other stories are good as well though. I didn't like the Endymion books as much.

>>213418578
This is what I'm leaning towards, too. At this point in the story Sev is lonely and going kind of crazy from all the shit that has happened so he probably just misses the one friend he ever had since he left the guild

>>213418782
yeah , its not horribly priced if you get it on sale. I bought myself the set when I got a promotion

>>213418684
nigga talked for too long, that's what happened

>>213418761
i hate to tell you this, but the priest story is as good as it gets

>>213417456
They aren't really comparable at all, apart from both being fantasy/scifi genre works in the broadest sense. You'd probably enjoy it though, it is very well written.

>>213418782
no they're gay as shit

>>213418782
The art is really good too. Someone on /lit/ posted all of them awhile back.

I want a Michael Bay gigachad Severian Prime movie

>>213418684
>watch your family get eaten by some kind of horror movie creature that perfectly mimics your dead family members' speech
>torturer adopts you
>a few pages later you get vaporized for no reason
young sev's life fucking sucked ass

>Thinking they’ll adapt a book about a white guy becoming supreme god emporer while he does nothing but kill brown people and fuck hot women the entire time
I don’t want a modern day adaptation

>>213418933
Art is good shit , There is some BoTNS art out there

>>213418872
Bummer....eh , ill soldier on through it

>>213417597
Malazan is fucking dogshit. Its not an homage to The Black Company. Its plagiarism. Absolute hack. I expected a lot from Malazan and it totally dropped the ball.
>oooh it gets better
Fucking lies, I waded through those dogwater books just for it to continue sucking. Im frankly insulted that I got tricked into thinking the series is worth a damn

>>213419134
I am listening to the audiobook while at my deskjob and its ok so far , but I have not read black company

>>213419133
Didn't mean to discourage you, it's just that the priest's story is uncommonly kino as fuck and sets the bar extremely high right in the beginning. I still liked a lot of the other parts of the book, and the Shrike is probably one of the best antagonists of all time in my opinion, so you should definitely try to finish it

>>213419199
>Keats
The absolute faggotry was unreal

>>213419199
I work a 3rd shift security job so Ive got the time surplus to complete it.

>>213418782
Wish it was a single volume like the BotNS is supposed to be but I guess it would be too thick.

>>213419294
Wrong
>>213419199
Also wrong. Councilor's story was the best one.

>>213418872
Scholar's tale is also pretty good.

>>213419294
Keats is based

>>213418872
>THEN I SPENT THE NEXT TEN YEARS AS A SATYR
priest was good, but was it based? (Yes, calling born again christians retards is based buuut…)

>>213419055
Alzabos are terrifying

>>213418248
It's not same kind of PoV. Severian doesn't understand the world he's in, he's not deliberately lying to the reader (or himself).

The whole Thecla/Severian thing would just be downright confusing for the audience.

wait, did sev find el dorado

>>213419480
lmao
for some reason I could only imagine the artist as resembling Patton Oswalt in my mind when I was reading that part

>>213419612
>Thecla
>the claw
Who else +130iq

>>213416474 (OP)
what is that 'just fuck my shit up' haircut lmao

>>213419612
You’re wrong. He does understand the world because by the time he’s writing his story he’s the Autarch and has thousands of years of knowledge downloaded into his brain. The whole story could be nonsense, he’s an unrelible narrator, and much of it is likely lies or propaganda.

>>213419737
Why did he skip over actually being the autarch

>>213419782
The whole book series is him getting to the point of being Autarch, with the context being he IS CURRENTLY Autarch. He has no Autarch story to tell because he’s currenrlt living it

You can tell bad fantasy by bad fantasy art.

This is horrible, awful, shamefully bad art. And thus, the contents must be worse, and everyone pretending the read it or it's some cornerstone of their childhood or whatever is just shitposting. This is a meme where people pretend to love something that is actually fucking awful, like Fifty Shades of Grey.

Is Baldanders satan

>>213419846
Go back to gay of thrones

>>213420075
Anon your whole life is literally a shitpost.

What is this book even about?

>>213419631
>Hethor
>The Thorn

>>213420047
There's like 6 characters who are kind of satan

Surely as men of high intellectual caliber /tv/ can agree that Cugel's story should be made into a picture first? I can scarcely think of a braver nor more honest man than he.

>>213420218
In The Book of the New Sun, a young torturer named Severian is exiled for an act of mercy and begins a surreal journey across a dying Earth where science and magic blur into one. As he ascends toward an uncertain destiny, Severian encounters strange creatures, forgotten technologies, and cryptic prophecies that hint he may shape the future of the world. Rich with layered symbolism and philosophical depth

The thinking machine spit this out , fairly accurate

>>213420354
Im reading the dying earth right now, it aint bad

>>213418684
That third book is wild man. Probably my favorite

>>213420419
The first book isn't bad, but it lacks a true hero like Cugel.

>>213420047
>small weak science man paired with big dumb oaf, kind of tropey and obnoxious
>abrupt 180 trope subversion when you finally find out what Baldanders actually is
KINOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

>>213418562
He (and possibly Jonas) chimped out when one of the guys at the wall hit Dorcas.
Admitting you used your giant sword to do Devil May Cry combos on local cops isn't a good look when you're now a god-king writing an autobiography, so he just skips the details.

>>213420449
Third book is apeshit bananas ahhh fuck it I know its cringe , but any actor any timeframe what are your guys casting choices ?

>>213416474 (OP)
Does this faggot do anything cool or is it just meandering bullshit the entire novel?

>>213420502
and the baby oh god the baby...

>>213419337
Hey me 2. Reading is a fun hobby. I'm reading The Stand now

>>213420516
Isn't Severian supposed to be somewhat unattractive and thuggish looking? No one really comes to mind immediately for me

>>213417977
>Isn't that where it takes place?
No, Gene Wolfe is a mega genius. North and South are flipped due to the magnetic field flipping. His Urth is set stupid far in the future. Remember the story about the ultra AI far future humans who made other life who made other life who made other life, from outside of our universe even? They came back and seeded the Earth again with stuff out of pure nostalgia and then their life that they made were tasked with making sure things go well and history goes as is expected to ensure their creation which is why they age backwards in time instead of forwards.

So no, it's not set in Brazil, slightly more complicated than that.

jolenta wanted the btc

>>213420534
>duels another man with a plant
>unknowingly steals a holy relic
>fights a monster that after eating its victim gains all its memories
>helps a time traveler escape
>fights man apes

I think those are pretty cool

>>213420354
>>213420419
dying earth is pretty funny. cugel is such a piece of shit cocksucker and everyone is an asshole of some sort.

>>213418461
>He’s an ubrelible narrator attempting to court the readers (subject of him as Autarch’s) favor. Much of what he says during the story is very likely a whitewashed version of events. Fucking a sleeping woman because she’s hot is rape.
He feel bad about it in the second book and brings it up as a topic. He doesn't excuse it, other than that feeling that the place exuded was meant to do exactly what happened there.

>>213420516
Andre the giant as baldanders obviously

>>213420575
it's been a while but i was under the impression that it took place in what is now argentina. would make sense with all the borges influence.

>>213416474 (OP)
Oops, sorry /tv/, I accidentally flicker strike'd into the wrong board

>>213420543
nice , is it the version with the kino cover?

>>213418728
>I suggested the book to my endocrinologist and now he is huge fan , even bought the fancy "Folio Society" versions.
>>213418782
>Wow those covers are dope
Hey I have those! The books are HUGE by the way. Like dimension wise

>>213420558
Yea, maybe if the Dunc twink were actually physically imposing. How about Austin Butler?

>>213416474 (OP)
Only if everyone is black and gay, goyim

>>213420631
>when those fairies kept spashing him and getting him wet so he outright murders one and they freak
Laughed my ass off. Fuck those fairies what did they think would happen?

>>213420692
No the cover is gay, im definitely gonna buy that version some day

>>213420558
He's described as being fairly attractive, high cheeks, cleft chin and whatnot.

>>213420631
I just completed the part where some pervert wizard tried to capture a woman and turn her into some sex slave. Pretty wild

>>213420558
IIRC Wolfe said he was tall and strong-featured with dark hair and green eyes.
My headcanon is that literally everyone in the series looks completely freakish since it's tens of thousands of years in the future and people have been living under completely different climates than what we have now, plus god/alien technological spirit recombination fuckery canonically altering how people look

>>213419375
>pic
any links to the comic?

>>213420670
>it's been a while but i was under the impression that it took place in what is now argentina. would make sense with all the borges influence.
Just Gene being Gene. It's so far into the future that the continents aren't where they are now. There's no countries that are our countries. The only reason why there are things left that you recognize at all (like swords and books and stuff) are because they were seeded there after the fact by mega far future human underlings. There's an entire story told in the book about it by that lady whose name I can't recall in the Sword of the Lictor.

>>213420837
i googled and this post argues that urth is actually a mirror of earth. it's pretty compelling.
https://www.reddit.com/r/genewolfe/comments/qvl0hg/nessus_is_and_is_not_buenos_aires_urth_as_earths/

>>213420837
The hot middle aged broad at the masquerade party?

>>213420736
Good man , Kino covers are some of life's simplest joys

>>213420805
Only issue one
https://readcomiconline.li/Comic/Gene-Wolfe-s-The-Shadow-Of-The-Torturer

>>213420692
I'm about to be very real. The anal scene in this book was 10/10.

>>213420867
That's basically the idea, although it is likely our current Earth as that is what made it so special to the future humans that are only thoughts with no bodies.

People are assuming this is far future tens of thousands of years since there are things like plates and chairs and it's basically like medieval times but with broken laser tech.

It's not tens of thousands of years, it is retarded far into the future. There was no life left on earth, there was nothing. They re-added stuff and started over.

BotNS is literally too kino to be filmed, the second it's objectively presented it loses a huge point of the book

>>213420892
ive read the wizard knight twice and i still don't feel like i truly understand what the hell happens. i love it and find it deeply affecting and more emotional than botns but when i assemble a fully coherent picture of the plot and what it means. any thoughts?

three heads of cerberus, what is the connection to botns

>>213420960
is it supposed to line up when the sun becomes a red giant/ white dwarf? that would be like 5 billion years in the future

>>213420960
Yeah the setting is billions of years in the future

>>213421013
*i can't assemble

>>213420960
I was under the impression it was similar to societal stagnation the way ASOIAF is, where it’s just perpetually stuck in a time period for thousands of years because the world is so shitty, or some kind of cataclysmic event causes everything to turn to shit and they can never get back to futuristic tech. Typhon reanimating shows that the current world lacks the tech the old world had

>>213421013
Lol , thats on my list , I am right now reading hyperion and I am not even joking , I have an Iq around 85 , so I had to read book of the new sun a few times AND watch a few videos AND ask a smarty friend about its themes. Wish I could help

>>213420960
>>213421051
it's a far future version of urth, which is far in the past relative to earth
(i think)

>>213421049
Typically the Dying Earth setting is even further along than that, no? It isn't just that the sun has become a red giant (I suppose they move the Earth somehow), it has been so long that the red giant is running out of fuel and is going to collapse

>>213421013
I have one. The cave at the start with the doves flying out is supposed to represent sperm and the start of a new life, with the "fate" thread weaving inside the cave representing the culmination of two others coming together (the father and the mother) and what that imparts onto what this new life with become, or "fated" to become.

>>213421049
>>213421051
No, isn’t it stated that the death of the sun is unnatural? As in human tech was using it and abusing it until they drained it?

>>213421098
>Typhon reanimating shows that the current world lacks the tech the old world had
Also the spaceships and laser guns

Have some animatics
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1eaL0BLAivU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oqZI0CHOeEI

anyone else fukkin laff when lil sev got vaporized

>>213421098
>I was under the impression it was similar to societal stagnation the way ASOIAF is, where it’s just perpetually stuck in a time period for thousands of years because the world is so shitty, or some kind of cataclysmic event causes everything to turn to shit and they can never get back to futuristic tech. Typhon reanimating shows that the current world lacks the tech the old world had
>>213421143
>Also the spaceships and laser guns

And that "old tech" and old Earth is actually still the new Urth relative to where we are now. That was long after humanity had left the Earth to spread throughout the universe, to the end of it and beyond, and then came back to do their shenanigans.

>>213421193
nah , the little squirt grew on me....

>>213421015
Is it related? It has been ages since I've read it. I don't remember much except creepy clone stuff and the abos eating honey covered grubs and then banging.

Actually I have been posting a lot in this thread, and I just had a thought.

Anyone that hasn't read Urth of the New Sun please do so, it will explain a lot of....everything. Remember, you are in the hands of Gene Wolfe, he will take care of you.

>>213421281
The man made pringles , so as far as I am concerned he can do no wrong

I was having trouble rereading it but this thread will push me back into trying to finish it all before Timmy Chalamet gets recast.
In the scene where Severian drowns as a kid there's an unnamed character that asks "was it a woman?" but it gets brushed off as him asking about Malubris. With Severian entangled in plants and the later part with the Syph it keeps nagging on me that this character has some knowledge about Severian

undine

>>213421434
Right

>>213421193
Thanks for ruining the story you faggot. I hope you get raped and mutilated by niggers.

>>213421495
Mel Gibson? I didnt know you were interested in BoTNS.
Realistically though , Isnt Mel Catholic so he might like some aspects of Wolfes writing

>>213421377
Re-read it and then right into the Urth of the New Sun, some of what you talk about is in there, and then the fun part is re-reading BotNS again after that.

I feel like some, not all, but some of the "unreliable narrator" stuff is because people don't know Gene always had this second book in mind. With both books a lot more makes sense, and some other things hurt your brain and there is no third book to help you lol but what are you gonna do.

>>213421281
>you are in the hands of Gene Wolfe, he will take care of you
I actually consider Urth the point where he stopped trying to tell cryptic stories and decided to just torture his readers with "puzzles" and autistic police interrogation dialogue

The only things that ever came close to this feeling I had when reading wolfe were Elric and the stories of Fafrd and the Mouser

>>213421547
>Isnt Mel Catholic
He's Sede, aka "I'm so trad I'm going to throw away 2000 years of tradition because we had a mediocre pope"

>>213416474 (OP)
It's good, but it is overrated within Gene Wolfe's own bibliogrophy. BOTNS is loved by those who want a hero's journey story elevated by prose, ambiguity, and Wolfe's stylistic flair. However, if you want more mature works, there are better options to read from Wolfe.

>>213421655
I think that the The Wizard Knight is massively underrated. A book called The Knight, and The Wizard, the most generic titles possible, when neither are really about the title at all.

>>213421543
Why you faggot? Is your life so devoid of pleasure that you have to make sure nobody else is allowed to enjoy anything? You are an incel and your bloodline is finished. I will track you down and kill you and throw your carcass in the streets.

>>213420805
>>213420922
Here are issues 2 and 3 https://imgur.com/a/3DmrixR https://imgur.com/a/Ev8xUJZ
it was cancelled after that because of poor sales, they had 6 planned

>>213421742
KINOOOO

>>213421742
You fucking rule Anon

>>213421731
nigger surely you must have known this thread would be full of spoilers, I think someone even spoils the fact that little Sev dies even earlier in the thread before that anon did

>>213421731
Chill man , yeah it was a dick move , but its all in the past now

>>213422003
No fuck you. Now I don't get to enjoy one of the best book series ever written because some asshole frogposter who should have probably been permabanned ages ago.

>>213422061
One of the biggest rules of 4chan is never enter a thread unless you’ve fully consumed the thing it’s discussing. Why would you enter this active thread thinking we wouldn’t discuss the story of the book?

>>213422061
if it makes you feel any better, little Sev's role in the story is extremely minuscule and you barely know him for more than a chapter or two iirc

>>213422083
Are you telling me you fucktards are categorically unable to discuss something without acting like cunts and ruining it?

>>213422116
this thread is the most fun I've had on 4chan in a while and it wouldn't be possible if we were autisticially spoilering everything; I'm not even sure how you managed to get through this thread with little Sev's death being the only thing that was spoiled for you

>>213422116
What the fuck would we discuss about a 40 year old niche book series besides the literal content of the books you fucking new faggot retard? Consider it a lesson learned and actually finish a thing before you hop on a forum to discuss it

>>213422116
Bud , hate to tell you , but your are in the wrong place and basically this
>>213422103

So why was the bush from which the Claw came in the sand garden? Who was the woman who Severian felt was just out of sight? Distant sound of waves on a shore was probably a premonition of the moment at the end when he's walking on the beach and has the revelation about the Claw?

Sorry, but this book series is too intelligent/2deep4y, and obtuse for the modern flick watcher. The only way it could work if it were very experimental and avantgarde, but we don't have anyone on this planet that could actually do it.

>>213422179
Wasn’t the claw just a weirdly shaped piece of the bush? The power was inside Severian. Also he’s basically god by the end so he could have been Dr. Manhattening himself

>>213422167
Same , I love BotNS threads. Also the Jap covers are kino

>>213422179
Read the Urth of the New Sun

>>213422231
The ones by the manga artist guy who did Death Note are the coolest

>>213418290
In wolfes work there is the recurring theme of the divine year - this story on Urth takes place in a divine year far before our own, where the increate is paving the way through the creeping apotheosis of humans and their counterparts for the eventual creation of a universe where a a bit of perfection - Jesus Christ - can eventually be born.
That’s the whole point. Severian is a saviour for a “divine year” quite different from our own

>>213418290
His intent was to make Severian morallt ambiguous to juxtapose his divinity. He is not Christ, but something similar and lesser.

>>213422259
Those are great too!

I love all my BotNS pals in this thread.

>>213422179
>>213422225
>Wasn’t the claw just a weirdly shaped piece of the bush?
Yeah, I think when Severian notices the bush it's supposed to be a big revelatory moment where he realizes that the Claw isn't actually special, and also why the Pelerines didn't seem to give a shit that he stole it

>>213422266
That's right. Remember, the very Book the the New Sun that we are reading is a translated copy by Gene Wolfe having found it in our universe after it was hurled into the void by Severian in Urth of the New Sun to pass from their universe and into ours. It is our universe and Earth that had the Christ figure.

>>213421650
Sounds based

>>213421098
No it’s literally all just an aesthetic choice by the people who live on urth at the time. Severian walks into a room full of plastic and chrome in one of the books and basically just goes “wowwee thid is boomslop i’m glad it’s more /fa/ for us to make everything out of natural fibers”

Also all the words are reconstructed from a language that won’t exist for hundreds of millions of years - the horses aren’t horses, the lances are clearly advanced matter disruption tech, and so on and so forth.

>>213421742
>terminus est doesn't have a fuck off big crossguard
that's his cross you illiterate illustrator

>>213422061
It’s hardly a fucking spoiler man. Like legit just spoils one chapter of a book written half a century ago

Where should I start with Borges? Is there any particular short story collection that Wolfe was clearly inspired by?

>>213422444
Checked and many thanks. Glad i found a kindred spirit, and someone else who gets it.

>>213422116
apu punchau is sev

>>213421730
Read it for the first time last year and my immediate first thought was what a shame it was so many people will never encounter this very particular, quietly understated but pure, wondrous fantasy in that vein akin to Dunsany, hearkening back almost to myth. It provided what I knew I would never get out of Elden Ring, narratively.

>>213417456
>all but Children
shit taste

>>213422608
I keep rereading The Circular Ruins which feels like a story a character would tell in BoTNS

>>213422646
>Checked and many thanks. Glad i found a kindred spirit, and someone else who gets it.
>>213422824
This was also me, and you are dead on in your assessment. I like to think that Gene knew what he was doing (because of course he did) to hide such a profound book amongst the likes of Dragon Lord the Reckoning and other such books that might catch the eye of someone lifting a book off of a wire rack where the title is "The Knight" and that's all.

>>213417493
It's meant to be read at least twice and has a lot of intentional inconsistencies because Severian is editorializing and censoring the story while he tells it. Imagine trying to make a Foucault's Pendulum movie but with substantial extra complications, and then remember nobody made a movie out of Foucault's Pendulum either.

>>213418185
Think it's mostly in Chile, but close enough.

>>213421139
The heirodules are doing it if I recall correctly. It's a hard-ass tactic to get the human race in line, force them to become more peaceful and reform. Severian is being groomed to stand as the paragon of the human race. I never read Urth though

>>213420354
Unfortunately Vance went full Jim Henson in the 80s and I doubt he'll ever get a Hollywood movie.

>>213422608
>Where should I start with Borges?
Ficciones, his first collection. His most "Wolfe-esque" story is The Immortal imo. Always read the translations by Norman Thomas di Giovanni when available, AVOID the recent collected works omnibus that replaces Di Giovanni's translations with hackwork. Borges and D.G. had agreed to split the royalties equally, as collaborators, but of course the publishing kikes hated that arrangement. The blind librarian is obviously based on Borges btw, as Borges was also a blind librarian with a habit of repeating himself. "He plays his records" says one lady in Naipul's essay where he meets Borges.

>>213421742
>Ambiguous description of a "citadel" that was obviously some kind of spaceport at sometime
>Lol jk, it's a wrecked Gothic Cathedral
This is the problem with adapting BotNS summed up in one page
>>213422231
Yoshitaka Amano is the perfect illustrator for BotNS

>>213422547
agreed this is the worst depiction of Terminus Est I think i've ever seen, also why is it so small

>>213423538
That's the ruined chapel where they hold the feast, which is explicitly called a ruined chapel

>>213423538
>AVOID the recent collected works omnibus that replaces Di Giovanni's translations with hackwork.
Ah shit it seemed fine to me

>>213416474 (OP)
Any links for a free pdf for the first volume guys? Please

for me its the painting cleaning guy. i have absolutely no idea what profound significance he has, i just think hes cool

Can anybody shed some light on what the FUCK was in the cave that scared off the ape-men when Severian was pursuing Agia? He says something like
>At the time I did not, but I know now what caused the rumbling of the earth
and reading it I'm screaming internally going "What?! What do you mean you know what it is now?!" I feel like Jack Burton in the sewers in Big Trouble in Little China.

>>213424033
Nevermind, I found it.

>>213424214
I figured it was some sort of giant war weapon that Severian only knows about once he becomes Autarch

>>213424214
Balrog

>>213419846
that's not the original cover sooo

>>213420516
>long eyes
>wide face with broad flat cheekbones
>flawed in ways that make her hotter
>brunette
five minutes into fallout I was like damn, that just is Agia. Interesting.

>>213417054
I find it hot and cool

>>213424406
And because I'm dumb and gay I forgot
>upturned nose

>>213417612
his secret is rape

>>213422061
I think you are misunderstanding who "Little Sev" is, it's not the main character

>>213418300
>>213416693
I know he's described at first as being very pale and having dark hair, but he does live in a time with greatly weakened sunlight was raised in a dungeon at that. He's pale but he certainly doesn't seem European. More likely a distant future cave dweller version of Latin Americans. He bronzes during his journey anyways.

>>213423637
>which is explicitly called a ruined chapel
Yes, and "Destrier" is an archaic word for a war horse. How lame would it be if the comic depicted destriers as big horses? As lame as depicting a chapel as an ersatz Gothic relic. That's what I meant. A"ship" isn't always a "ship" in BotNS. The map is not the territory.
>>213423700
The worst for me is the omnibus ed renders the story title as "Funes, his memory" and not the incomparably superior "Funes the Memorious" because "memorious isn't a real world". UTTERLY ignoring that Borges spoke Latin better than most Americans speak English and coined a latinism to bridge English and Spanish. I would hate to see what translators do to Borges' beloved Thomas Carlyle. Avoid those modern hack translations of Tolstoy too, btw.

>>213416790
>>213416942
I enjoy Loyal to the Group of Seventeen's story the best. I sometimes try to get normies to read just that one because it's short.

>>213424553
And that idea of a race who only communicate using references to approved stories predates the Darmok at Tanagra episode of Star Trek Next Gen

anyone else miss every single reference, time loop or whatever the fuck was going on in the background?

>>213424516
Thecla says she has "never seen such white skin" referring to Sev

>>213424739
It is the kind of novel that reveals itself to you upon re-reading. It is very difficult to track exactly what is going on the first time through, by design.

>>213418474
I don't know, but one of my favorite moments of any book is when Severian believes he is bringing the soldier into the warcamp, propping him up and leading him on by the shoulder and when he gets to the field hospital to find the soldier aid, the nurse asks "What's that matter with him?". Severian is shocked to discover the nurse is addressing the soldier, not himself, and he discovers for the first time he's emaciated, covered in wounds, and half dead from exposure!

>>213418782
>>213420892
I have some old Arrow paperback version of BotNS myself, I think the covers are kino.
>>213424739
Yes, me. I'll have to re-read it at some point, I feel like once you know the twist you probably pick up on a lot more of that stuff.

>>213418684
And then the two-headed Antichrist wannbe is the character that gets his own spin-off series.

>>213424963
My favorite moment is shortly after that, when it's at night and Severian is in the infirmary surrounded by all the wounded soldiers. He deeply wants to heal their wounds, so he lifts the Claw above him and tries to will the power out of it. It flickers for a moment, then goes out.

I don't know why but that image has always stuck with me.

>>213419199
Paul Dure is the best character, but all the stories are good. The Consul's story is especially good.The book trojan horses you with surprise politics near the end, and is Redpilled as fuck.
One more thing is Arab Doomguy is a slow burn, but eventually culminates in mega kino and I actually jumped up while reading Fall of Hyperion. ( I finished it yesterday)

>>213424406
Oh and speaking of
Agilus seems to be a Cacogen wearing a fucking Agia mask, not a twin
What's up with that

>>213418684
I really liked it because of the way he wins the fight too. he realizes that he cant win one way but that the other head is telling him what to do

>>213425367
Wait what?

>>213424214
>At the time I did not, but I know now what caused the rumbling of the earth
Abaia, or one of the other Cthonic entities that are watching and tempting Severian. They came from the stars, like the Old Ones. Enemies of the Cacogens.
>>213422179
>when he's walking on the beach and has the revelation about the Claw
One of the best things I've ever read. I've written it out like HST did the last lines of The Great Gatsby, just to feel what it's like to write something that good.
>>213420892
>Simak, Brunner, Ellison, Flashman
Good taste anon, get Cemetery World by Simak, best thing he wrote next to City and Project Pope
>>213420575
>North and South are flipped due to the magnetic field flipping.
Huh, I always interpreted it as glaciation had pushed humans into the Equatorial/tropical region, but it was still our continents because there's a line about continental drift stopping due to the Earth's core losing radioactivity over the millions of years. Still, the river Gyoll is pretty identifiable with the Amazon, there are "pampas" to the South, the Autarch is fighting a war against "southerners" and the Andes could well be the mountain range where Typhon's palace was.

>>213425425
Yeah it's like this
>Severian enters the costume shop
>Sees spooky death's head corpse propped up behind counter
>Notices a length of ribbon extending back beneath the hair above each ear
>You are wearing a mask sieur, take it off
>Agilus takes off the death's head mask - not the way you would take off a mask secured by ribbons, it just falls away into his hands
>"The ribbons that held your mask - they're still there" is a direct quote from Severian that comes next
>Agilus pretends not to hear this

>>213425542
Man I gotta reread these books. Is there any other evidence that points to Agilus being a Cacogen?

>>213420960
One clue that points to just how far in the future this book takes place is the mysterious "Polysand" Severian mentions. No matter where you dig down on Urth, you will eventually come to an ancient layer of rainbow colored sand. This would be evidence of such a devastating cataclysm, and all but guarantees that Urth has been reseeded, maybe multiple times.
My own thoughts is the sand is a relic of a 'glassing' when the world was cleansed by fire, very much like what is suggested to do with dirty shit in Leviticus.

>>213425626
The book states what this is, though. So many civilizations have risen and fallen that the pulverized remains of their buildings and glass forms a sediment layer.

>>213419631

Never occurred to me lol, I kneel

>>213425367
>>213425606
what. no. theyre twins. thats the entire point of them.

why would agilus bother with the flowers

>>213416474 (OP)
>tranny janny deleting my on-topic, informative, and entertaining posts again
Go back to r*ddit you power-tripping queers, imagine leaving a thread up and selectively banning posters for "posting in a troll thread". Fucking GAY I'd say

>>213425606
Nothing except that Gene always has Cacogens wearing another mask over their mask. They generally have a mask that looks human, then they whip that off to show a mask that looks like a lamprey or a vampire bat or a bug with mandibles or whatever, which the reader is supposed to believe is their "alien" appearance, then in Sword it's revealed that this is also a mask and under that second mask is their true face.
Anyway I'm almost through Shadow again and I'll keep an eye out for any more clues

>>213424824
My point was that the races of this bizarre world are not the same as ours, and they don't have the same environmental pressures as we do informing our own genetics. Another anon said every person you could meet there would probably be strange and freakish looking. Sev's not traditionally a white European, how could he be?

>>213418290
He's not inherently Jesus, future Severian has the power of the New Sun (a white hole) given to him by the heirodules (aliens). At the "end" he jumps back and forth through time and accidentally ends up as the Jesus figure of his culture. Even funnier the bible of the Conciliator religion is just some autist who remembered Severian's words, who was himself quoting what he remembered from reading the bible. Inb4 perfect memory which he may or may not be lying about.

>>213425971
>Wolfe describes Severian in Shadows of the New Sun as being 6'1", 175 pounds, with straight black hair and a high square forehead. He has slightly large hands, a long bony face, with moderately high cheekbones and a strong chin. He has dark eyes, pale skin, and good teeth
Who would you cast if not a European man? I take your point that there is no Europe in the context of the story, but he's still described as a standard white European.

>>213425730
It's true that pulverized ruins are mentioned, they are even mined by the town of Saltus, but it's one thing to find stratified ruins here and there, and another thing to find an even layer of dust everywhere on Earth even in places with no civilization. If they were ruins, they would have to appear in pockets and it would be impossible for them to form a single layer.
The only way a single layer could be formed around the entire world is from a geologic event that took place over the entire world. Since it took place over the entire world, it could be nothing less than an extinction event.

>>213425230
>>213424963
When Severian leave and the place gets bombed, killing all the people that told their stories and so that's why he keeps them in the book to have their memory. Kino

>>213425995
>future Severian has the power of the New Sun (a white hole)
It's not a white hole, it's a white fountain. This may seem like nitpicking but it's actually a very important distinction.

>>213426084
>The only way a single layer could be formed around the entire world is from a geologic event that took place over the entire world. Since it took place over the entire world, it could be nothing less than an extinction event.
You're not thinking big enough. Urth is *billions* of years into the future. Every square inch of land has had dozens, maybe even hundreds, of civilizations rise and fall over the course of unnumbered eons. Urth has had humans living on it for longer than the dinosaurs existed.

loving all the discussion here. might have to do my reread of botns and urth too. (and the wizard knight)
but i must say, one part of the series that i always find myself thinking back on is the fight between severian and Baldanders in the lab/tower. with the lake people fighting their mutated brethren below. it was such a kino read had me on the edge of my seat.
also i find it funny (iirc) when Sev meets Agia sometime after he kills her brother, Hethor is like fondling her or something while their talking lol, lucky little fucker man

>>213426219
for me it's when sev sees the fat cherub catamite in Baldanders bedroom and he just turns and walks away not wanting to know or caring what that's all about.

>>213420631
>>213420729
For me, it's selling the fairy tale princess to a clan of inbred hillbilly bandits. He really got toned down in the second story though. Less outright malicious asshole getting hoist by his own petard and more of a hapless rogue getting into misadventures.

>>213426219
Don't forget Hyperion. Hyperion almost works as a companion piece when The Autarch tells Severian "Mankind must never again take to the Stars."
You almost get a snapshot glimpse into why that might be so while reading Hyperion.

>>213426258
lmao oh yeah! that lab really freaked him out i guess. And its funnier to since this is all narrated after the fact from Autarch sev he just still didn't figure out what that thing was even though he could've somehow. i guess he just didnt wanna bother with that ugly thing lul

>>213426304
MINDREADER! i was reading Hyperion before botns! But i only got to the very first story about a priest of some sort iirc. ngl i found it kinda dull. but i ought to finish it.

>>213426258
You might even say he does a 360 and walks away

>>213426219
Yep Baldanders is amazing, I love how the most wicked and fucked up character is hidden in plain sight for 3/4ths of the story disguised as a big dumb oaf

>>213426362
really love too how that fight gets going so quickly, sev really kinda wastes little time to throw down with people. then again, he's the narrator so ofc lol

Now on my shelf I've got
>Book of the New Sun original timescape editions and Shadow and Claw/Sword and Citadel releases
>Hyperion and Fall of Hyperion
>The Dying Earth book 1
>Elric saga and French graphic novel Elric adaptation
>The Chalk Giants by Keith Roberts
>some Aldiss and Asimov collections
>A tiny little bit of Harlan Ellison in a collection by various authors (Beast That Shouted Love is the story)
Any weirdo fantasy from this wheelhouse that seems like it's notably missing? Viriconium perhaps

>>213416474 (OP)
>>213416693
neck urselves, nigertroons

stop pushing it - it's unfilmable

>shitcoded

stupid zoomer piece of shit

>>213426219
same anon here
i remembered just now another interesting part, in the second book. Severians meeting with the alzabo. the way it ate and copied its victims and spoke about bringing the whole family back together. it was super creepy. one of my favorite fictional monsters ever. i'd wager its what influenced that fucked up bear from Annihilation what with the mimicking voice and all.

>>213426338
Another anon was also reading and mentioned it. Some security guy. Anyways Hyperion can feel a little colder than New Sun even with it's emotionally poignant moments. I get the feeling Dan Simmons is a big history guy, his story comes off with the coldness of a historical lens rather than the raw emotional whirlwind of Gene Wolfe. It's got the same kind of crypto-Christian themes, but it's the difference between reading about religion, and feeling the terrible weight of actual religious experience which deforms the mind.
Another difference is that Hyperion definitely has a more traditional confrontational antagonist that our heroes are up against. The various confrontations that Severian experiences are up against people who very much feel like they are just part of the world as surely as the Innkeeper and Jolenta, all just players in one show.

On the note of experiences which permanently deform the mind, since New Sun trains you to read Gene Wolfe, there are places you can go after that. Can't really say they are better, or even suggest them. All I can say is that it's hard to go back to Book of the New Sun after reading them.

>>213426442
>Elric saga
My mom bought me 6 rare somewhat expensive volumes of Elric for my birthday and I've read two and I think they are garbage. Like bad versions of Conan and Vampire Hunter D .Elric himself is a better character than his novels and Moorecock's writing can do justice. Does it get better after Volume 2? All the powerful and amazing art makes it seem he would be better off as a comic character.

>>213426442
I forgot to mention Solomon Kane
>>213426687
I prefer the graphic novels I think. I like Vanishing Tower, if that's the one I'm thinking of, with the huge spire the Eternal Champions are traversing and realize at the end is actually some sort of huge creature.

>>213426687
>Does it get better
No

Moorecock is a capeshit-tier writer, he even created his analogue of avanger's multiverse comprised of all the shity characters he wrote (including Elric)

>>213417054
no, because the torturers guild trained them do it so they could handle cold temperatures when sleeping. severian talks about how he used to be able to sleep without a shirt or cloak, but after like a week of covering himself up his body resets

>>213424516
oh wow, a tan
I guess he's really a nigger then

>>213426442
>Any weirdo fantasy from this wheelhouse that seems like it's notably missing?
If you want more Dying Earth, I mentioned Vampire Hunter D in my other post. It's like Robert Howard combined with Hammer Horror combined with Dying Earth. Archeo-tech, and genetically engineered monsters like werewolves created for the Vampire Lord's pleasure. Random farmers keep the family's heat ray loaded in case they need to protect their livestock from Great Dragons and Mist Devils. Sometimes they find relic tanks.

If you wanted more scifi with the religious bent, Philip K. Dick's novels can be very shocking and disturbing, much like Gene Wolfe.

One book I really enjoyed recently that's not like anything you listed is The Forever War, which explores space travel and warfare more and is a nightmare. It has my favorite space battle of any story or media with just one fighter doing one six month maneuver and coming back in a big way and somehow it's intense as hell. The kind of thing you couldn't really pull off in a movie. Also love "Graduation Day."

>>213416474 (OP)
This looks AI.

There's too much stuff they couldn't/wouldn't adapt and with movies nowadays, you just know they'd butcher it. Would've been a kino miniseries in the 80s maybe

>>213417456
Dune is better.
BotNS is overrated. It's okay then good book, not a masterpiece or even great one.

>>213426069
>straight black hair and a high square forehead. a long bony face, with moderately high cheekbones and a strong chin.
Generic description of a stereotypical native american man

>>213417493
These books work because a lot in them is somewhat obscured from the readers and you can only take a guesses based on a very vague hints.
For example the setting is distant future with the castle where MC lived was the space ship and all around has some weird things that somewhat make you wonder "Is it the distant future Earth? ".
The whole thing works on the story and characters and atmosphere.
In any visual adaptation you'd realize that this is the future Earth in the first minute and this would kill the large portion of the fun.
Same with the plot.

I... i liked the Knight but... i cant stomach going into The Wizard... what do i do. It was too dense and too chaotic while i loved the prose.

>>213427160
Dune is overrated.
Book of the New Sun is better than Lord of the Rings, Canterbury Tales, and Paradise Lost.

>>213417575

Malazan is technicaly "filmable", the world is consistent and well structured, the reason its "unfilmable" is just because its so ridiculously large and can get extremely boring at some parts. Remember those idiotic parts where tolkienb explained the fucking leaves and tree branches and whatnot? Imagine that but times 10

Malazan would look bad in live action.
Animated series would have actually improve it as the characters are exaggerated in various ways. Some are larger than life, some are comedic incarnate, some are despicable or grotesque.
Also animation would be able to offset the huge epic world without the need to spend half a billion on a season while still failing to make it look good in live action.

>>213417493

Its a post-apocalypic sci-fi world in wich the time after "cataclysm" has passed so far that cultures have gone full circle. There are spaceships and shit all around but the people living there have long forgottenw hat they are and are livin in a more or less rudimentar feudal list, the story has lots of disconected stuff and it requires a few re-reads for the reader to fully grasp wtf is even going on because nothing is explaiend at face-value in our terms, for example you can go several pages with charactes referencing a "magical orb" just for you to realize way later they are talking about a glowing buton on a ships command panel, that sort of stuff. Think Kenshi on crack

>>213417493
unrelyable narrator

everything in the book is a lie

>>213427652
>Think Kenshi on crack
go back to r e d d i t

>>213422608

Funes The Memorious / Funes In Memory is probably where he got the idea of Severian's perfect memory from, although taken to an even greater extreme.

>>213426687
i personally liked his Corum books because he doesn't nearly try to be so overly moody and subversive There's still over the top misery and doom and gloom but it doesn't wallow it in as hard and just comes off as a more honest, fun dark fantasy series of adventures

>>213426442
Revelation Space is more science fiction (like Hyperion I guess but more so) but it's definitely pretty weird, especially Absolution Gap

>>213427165
Nice of you to leave out that he's borderline albino white

>>213416888
It's unreadable either.

>>213417597
>Morrowind-style music, kinda cool
>ok, some guitars
>aaaaand someone is shitting in the microphone
God dammit. Fucking kikes, I hate this growling shit so much.

>>213427912

>book is about a guy that claims he has perfect memory
>can't even tell how the last book's cliff-hang resolved
>large chunks of time/story are completely missed
>often contradicts himself

"Go figure it out urself" - Gene Wolf, greatest fiction writer ever

>>213427488
>Remember those idiotic parts where tolkienb explained the fucking leaves and tree branches and whatnot?
Damn son rethink your life. You probably haven't even read the parts you're strawmanning right now

>>213427896
Black people call Obama "lightskinned".

>>213428287
White space aristocrats call Sev "extremely pale"

>have a good prose
>splat the content of your brain goo all over the pages
>dont care about it being edible or arranged properly (midwits will call it done on purpose in 40 years anyway)
>congratulations - you are gene wolfe who made midwits call you the greatest cause of prose and laziness

Is it really that simple? As long as you have good prose you can just do whatever shit you want and people will praise you cause you made them go through the debris of your writing?

AHEM
>Then there is the fact that every character you meet in the story turns up again, hundreds of miles away, to reveal that they are someone else and have been secretly controlling the action of the plot. It feels like the entire world is populated by about fifteen people who follow the narrator around wherever he goes. If the next two books continue along the same lines, then the big reveal will be that the world is entirely populated by no more than three superpowered shapeshifters.
>Everyone in the book has secret identities, secret connections to grand conspiracies, and important plot elements that they conveniently hide until the last minute, only doling out clues here and there. There are no normal people in this world, only double agents and kings in disguise. Every analysis I've read of this book mentions that even the narrator is unreliable.
>This can be an effective technique, but in combination with a world of infinite, unpredictable intrigue, Wolfe's story begins to evoke something between a soap opera and a convoluted mystery novel, relying on impossible and contradictory scenarios to mislead the audience. Apparently, this is the thing his fans most appreciate about him--I find it to be an insulting and artificial game.
>I agree with this reviewer that there is simply not enough structure to the story to make the narrator's unreliability meaningful. In order for unreliable narration to be effective, there must be some clear and evident counter-story that undermines it. Without that, it is not possible to determine meaning, because there's nowhere to start: everything is equally shaky.
>At that point, it's just a trick--adding complexity to the surface of the story without actually producing any new meaning. I know most sci fi and fantasy authors seem to love complexity for its own sake, but it's a cardinal sin of storytelling: don't add something into your story unless it needs to be there.

>>213428736
>Overall, I found nothing unique in Wolfe. Perhaps it's because I've read quite a bit of odd fantasy; if all I read was mainstream stuff, then I'd surely find Wolfe unpredictable, since he is a step above them. But compared to Leiber, Howard, Dunsany, Eddison, Kipling, Haggard, Peake, Mieville, or Moorcock, Wolfe is nothing special.
>Perhaps I just got my hopes up too high. I imagined something that might evoke Peake or Leiber (at his best), perhaps with a complexity and depth gesturing toward Milton or Ariosto. I could hardly imagine a better book than that, but even a book half that good would be a delight--or a book that was nothing like that, but was unpredictable and seductive in some other way.
>I kept waiting for something to happen, but it never really did. It all plods along without much rise or fall, just the constant moving action to make us think something interesting is happening. I did find some promise, some moments that I would have loved to see the author explore, particularly those odd moments where Silver Age Sci Fi crept in, but each time he touched upon these, he would return immediately to the smallness of his plot and his annoying prick of a narrator. I never found the book to be difficult or complex, merely tiring. the unusual parts were evasive and vague, and the dull parts constant and repetitive.
>The whole structure (or lack of it) does leave things up to interpretation, and perhaps that's what some readers find appealing: that they can superimpose their own thoughts and values onto the narrator, and onto the plot itself. But at that point, they don't like the book Wolfe wrote, they like the book they are writing between his lines.

>>213428736
>>213428756
Impressive midwittery

>>213428665
If you have good prose, you can do what Rothfuss did. Publish two books, then create a non-profit, run streams gathering hundreds of thousands of dollars for "charity", take 95+% of it as "admin fees" and "rent that non-profit pays to you" and forward the rest to some actual charity, all under the promise of the next book, then a chapter, then a page, and never deliver. Then shitpost on twitter and stream on twitch and call your readers cunts for daring to ask for the things you promised. Never be touched by the IRS despite clearly illegal shit you've pulled and basically empty form 990s.

God, I hate that fat kike.

>>213417122
It’s an action comedy

>>213428665
>As long as you have good prose you can just do whatever shit you want and people will praise you cause you made them go through the debris of your writing?
>Is it really that simple?
Yes!

>>213429114
Rothfuss' prose is dogshit thoughever

>>213429211
People praise it, I couldn't make it past the hobo orhan rape part in one of the first chapters.

>>213424214
A Gundam

what was the fucking point of The Play?

i didn't even read all this shit

>>213429569
just filler that gets called back to. I would suggest reading it