Thread 213551365

Was The Comedian even really a "hero" in the traditional sense?

he's my hero

They were referred to as masks as in vigilantes. Rorschach wasnt a hero or aligned with the authorities.

>>213551365 (OP)
dont care for this Alan Moore slop

>>213551419
Let's see your superhero film, go on, we'll wait.

No, he is a rapist of women not to mention that he committed war crimes in Vietnam

>>213551365 (OP)
He was hailed as a hero in the propaganda in-universe. but he was not even an anti-hero in the movie, he dies at the beginning and all we are told about him in flashbacks is that he was an asshole. is best "deed" is thinking about exposing the plot.

>>213551365 (OP)
Who knows he had 2 minutes of screen time

>>213551365 (OP)
He beat up some hippies so that instantly makes him a hero

>>213551365 (OP)
He is like le joker but war hardened

>>213551365 (OP)
Nah, the comedian is a shameless and sadistic sociopath that happens to become a patriotic symbol. But he's the most despicable character in watchmen by far.

>>213551365 (OP)
Moore modeled him after his biological father

>>213553593
>But he's the most despicable character in watchmen by far.
That would be Laurie

No. He isn't a hero. He was always a cocky scumbag type. He just happened to be against the entire plan and ended up getting killed.

>>213553724
That would explain how he became a pothead animal skinner that sold LSD

The Comedian was a simple weapon more than anything. He liked to kill, and he was good at it.

>>213552528
He's nothing like the Joker. If anything he's the Punisher with a government contract.

>>213553763
Laurel is completely fucked up the head. But how can we blame her? She's the daugther of the comedian after all.

>>213551491
Sums it up nicely.

A hero is someone who risks their life and livelyhood to save people. Comedian was a mercenary who did a job for glory.

Ozzymendias did it to prive hes the best

Silk and owl did it to impress their older counterparts.

The only real hero was rorshack who genuinley risked his life identity and safety to save lives and get the truth out there.

>>213552528
He is the oppoiste of the Joker. The whole reason he is called the comedian is because society is already so fucked and such a joke, the comedian doesnt even need to tell any.

>>213553810
The Comedian didn't really kill people out of duty like a good soldier or because they deserved it like Rorschach. He did it because he find it fun.
The Comedian is more like the Peacemaker, but more scumy and less cringe.

>>213553593
>But he's the most despicable character in watchmen by far.
You mean the guy who had a mental breakdown and extreme attack of conscience after learning what one of the other characters in Watchmen was planning to do?

>>213553879
He makes cringemaker look based

>>213551365 (OP)
The only hero was rosarch since he was driven by ideals over his own selfishness . Even owlman just did it for kicks.

>>213553810
Is the Punisher supposed to be an amoral nihilist who likes to casually murder innocents and rape women while cracking jokes?

>>213553892
Yes? The comedian, despite being an absolute scumbag, still a human after all. And broke because of the scale of what Ozi was planning to do.
Also, when Ozi killed him, he was writing a letter to Laurel, telling she loves her. Showing he still have some humanity.

>>213553848
>A hero is someone who risks their life and livelyhood to save people
This is the disgusting modern interpretation of the ἥρως, which is conveniently a slave to the status quo and forced to serve the masses.

>>213554015
Right, so you're agreeing that Comedian is not the most despicable character in watchmen.

>>213553593
Ozymandias is probably worse for being such a sanctimonious faggot.

>>213551365 (OP)
>im da JOKA BABYYYY
>dies in the first 7 seconds of the movie

>>213554184
no the worst is the child rapist/murderer/cannibal that rorschach kills. the comedian barely did anything wrong.

Is the graphic novel worth it anons? The Lovecraft shit at the end seems kinda gay

>>213554259
Well it's way better than the film (which I actually thought was decent). The film is mostly faithful up until the ending, so if you liked it you will like the GN. The main critique of the film is that Snyder's style clashes with the subject matter. I get that criticism, but I think that can be interpreted ironically even if Snyder didn't do so intentionally.

>>213554233
You don't have a good grasp of english, do you?

>>213554184
No? In order to be despicable you need to have some humanity . A one-dimensional scumbag that happens to be a scum because of the sake of scumery all the time isn't beliveable and feels more like a force of nature that happens to be there to be a scum.

>>213554290
I think framing Dr. Manhattan for the genocide is a fine compromise, because it's a tangible threat that everyone understands.

Even Ozi would have to realize that within a few generations of no more lovecraftian cosmic horrors coming through the breach, people would get complacent and wise to the fact that they never existed. At least with Dr. Manhattan being framed as the culprit, people understand that he's definitely real and is now a vengeful and angry god, so the peace would probably last a bit longer before they realize that he fucked off to another galaxy.

At any rate, the peace is not going to last.

>>213554215
Ozi is worse in terms of scale, but ultimately did it for the greater good. The Comedian actions on the other hand were pure sadism

>>213553910
Max punisher enjoys killing and uses his family as an excuse. The Comedian is the same way except the government and society allow him to do it. The difference between them is that Frank Castle is a comic book character and has never shown any remorse at all for what he's done, and the Comedian is an archetype of the same type of character because Alan Moore wanted to humanize those archetypes because its a drama book comic book for adults that grew up reading comics as children.

>>213551441
Dude, stop, I can only literally me that guy so much!

>>213554366
>>213554233
>>213554015
You comprehension-challenged, barely evolved, shit complected apes, this anon >>213553593 asserted that Comedian is "the most despicable in watchmen character by far"

I am DISAGREEING with that anon's assertion. You are AGREEING WITH ME that Comedian is NOT the most despicable character in watchmen.

>>213554420
I think the scale matters. Ozymandias justifies killing millions of people "for the greater good" which makes him a bigger threat than The Comedian with a dangerous ego. He's basically a supervillain. The Comedian is an asshole, but he does what he does because of his upbringing and belief that nothing really matters. Both are wrong, but Ozy is worse.

>>213554456
It's ok anon ik what you meant

>>213554375
>within a few generations of no more lovecraftian cosmic horrors coming through the breach
Right, like how people don't into religion anymore, or how all those nutty cults didn't pop up in the Seventies, or how American retards don't believe in Russiagate or all this other shit for which there is absolutely zero proof, or even a vast mountain of disproof.

Here's why casting Osterman as the villain is dumb and gay, like you: why would the Soviets care? What about America's own pet attacking it just once is of any interest to them? Why would they not leverage that event to improve their position? It's like thinking Chernobyl would've driven both parties to abandon nukes.

>>213554563
Because Dr. Manhattan was framed as doing it. So presumably the world was at threat. It wasn't just "oh this shit fucked just us over". It had global implications.

>>213553593
It's funny when people make moral value judgements against the characters in this book, because watchmen is a mirror and your response to the characters says a lot about your own political/societal leanings.

People that were horrified by the atrocities of the vietnam war would see the Comedian as a monster, while jingoistic ass kissing flag wavers would see him as some sort of patriotic hero. It's funny because he was neither of these things, he was simply a man who was more in touch with his own human nature and acting it out more than anyone else.

>>213554519
Yeah, but Ozi is handsome, so it's ok

>>213554603
You are a fucking retard. It doesn't matter that he's framed as having done it. What about it makes him a threat to the Soviets? Nothing, you fucking idiot. It's a stupid fucking idea.

The point of the extraterrestrial is that so much of it is unknown. It could strike again anywhere at anytime. With Osterman, the only concievable movtie he had was getting ass-blasted at that TV interview. Why would he take that out on the Soviets, or anyone else? Even lashing out at New York is nonsensical. You have a physicist who's been superpowered for decades, and then just out of the blue wastes half of New York.

You, like Zach Snyder and 90% of the people in this thread, are a fucking moron.

>>213554630
So was The Comedian and Sally liked it, tbf

>>213554519
The Comedian was trying to change the world by killing one person at a time. Ozymandius was just going to industrialize it and kill millions with the push of a button. The whole thing is a treatise on actual warfare vs the push button war of the nuclear age. Ozy wasn't the president, he wasn't a general, he didn't send millions to war to kill other millions, he cheated with technology to kill millions on a mass scale so he could get a newspaper headline out of it.

That's actual evil.

>>213554563
>Right, like how people don't into religion anymore, or how all those nutty cults didn't pop up in the Seventies, or how American retards don't believe in Russiagate or all this other shit for which there is absolutely zero proof, or even a vast mountain of disproof.
In the universe of watchmen, the world has been on the brink of nuclear war despite Osterman being a known entity for the better part of thirty years.

Everybody knows what Osterman is capable of doing, and understands that he would be an unstoppable force if he ever went rogue. The reason everything you just said doesn't fucking apply to the point you're trying to argue, is that all of that shit does not have the same tangible proof and presence that Osterman does in the fictional Watchmen universe. "God" was not destroying rice paddies and vaporizing tanks from 1950-1980, but Dr. Manhattan was.

People actually /don't/ into religion anymore, and those nutty cults have even less relevance now than they did then. But I guarantee you that if a Dr. Manhattan-like entity was playing with reality like he had cheat codes, it would have more impact than any of that shit, and that's what you're not understanding. When you're trying to cram an extremely detailed comic into a two-hour movie, and you're Zach Snyder, it's a decent compromise to just have Ozi frame Manhattan instead of devoting even more screentime to explain the squid plot. You don't have to like it, and you still have the comic; so calm your autism and take your meds.

>>213554654
>The point of the extraterrestrial is that so much of it is unknown.
Wow so mysterious and awesome, this godlike being has motives beyond my comprehension
>You have a physicist who's been superpowered for decades, and then just out of the blue wastes half of New York.
How contrived and dumb, this godlike being has motives beyond my comprehension

>>213551379
Rorschach was the only actual hero out of all of them.

>>213554963
Godlike or not, this entity still an American super weapon that went out of control. And the soviets will suddently become collaborative and make peace because he randomly nuked a city? I think the soviets would get angrier at Americans.

>>213554519
Ozymandias didn't kill millions of people though. They were already dead. He saved billions, and failed to save those other few millions. The people who killed them are the egotistical governmental leaders who led the play with nuclear war and wouldn't be talked away from it.

>>213555178
That was his hypothesis, yes. It's stated pretty clearly that the peace won't last though. I think Ozy's ego played more into it than he admits, as well.

>>213555097
>this entity still an American super weapon that went out of control.
Did you forget where ground zero was for the squid event? Why wouldn't this look to the soviets like the Americans were working on another superweapon that went out of control? The Soviets should be just as upset in this case, perhaps moreso because Dr. Manhattan is conveniently AWOL.

>>213555343
The whole point was to make an exterior threat, unrelated to both superpowers. Also, the soviets wouldn't think that the squig was an American super weapon because it's simply absurd to build a telepporting city nuking alien-like creature when you already have nukes. And more when the first nuked city is an American one.

>>213555441
Okay let me spell it out for you in very simple terms.

An interdimensional creature teleports into existence at the Institute of Spatial Studies, creating a psychic shockwave that instantly kills everyone in a radius around the city.

You are Supreme Soviet Premier Gorbachev, your staff is briefing you on the situation, and these are the questions you have:

>What exactly were the Americans doing at the Institute For Spatial Studies? Were the Americans trying to contact some interdimensional being?
>Was this a contingency plan to control Dr. Manhattan? Wait, where IS Dr. Manhattan?
>Are these creatures more powerful than Dr. Manhattan? Are there more of them? Did the Americans just broadcast our location to some cosmic entity?
>What do our own psychics and mystics have to say about this? What do we know about interdimensional stuff? Oh god, they've been having dreams of this creature?
>How many other sites like the Institute for Spatial Studies do the Americans have?

We must preemptively strike America while they're unprepared, we can't risk the Americans summoning more of these creatures.

>>213555763
To be fair, the squig plan still have many flaws and simply won't hold long before the hostilities start again. But I guess Ozy simply wanted to stop the mass nuking that was about to happen.
You said before why wouldn't the soviets think that the Americans somehow fucked up because of the squig. But I think the opposite, if anything, it's the Americans that should suspect the squig is a disguised nuke the soviets elaborated to strike them, since only Americans were kill.
If it wasn't one, but more squigs that attacked different cities (including soviet ones) it would have felt more like an alien invasion.

Still, making Manhattan the culprit is retarded and doesn't hold up. As I said, it's a 100% made in American super weapon that was used to reck them previously in Vietnam. They would get turbo angry at Americans if anything and given them reasons to never trust them.

>>213553848
>A hero is someone who risks their life and livelyhood to save people
Isn't this actually bad for society, though? For every innocent person who got a bad luck of the draw or was in the right place at the wrong time, there's a hundred gang killings and retards who accidentally nearly kill themselves, and running in to save these people indiscriminately just allows the worst members of society to proliferate.

>>213554307
>>213554456
my bad im retarded, sorry

>>213555763
>We must preemptively strike America while they're unprepared
This is exactly why Ozymandias' plan is necessary, and why he is a good guy. Ozymandias didn't set that scenario up and get the world into this brinkmanship toying with armaggedon. They did. And if they needed a few million deaths to knock some sense into themselves and stop toying with killing billions, then they made that necessary.

>>213554290
>The film is mostly faithful up until the ending
There's a subplot that explains how the squid appears and it's a clusterfuck of 4th wall breaking comic book artist meta commentary infused with quantum physics. If the movie used the squid it would have had to come up with a more film appropriate reason for it to exist. They didn't just cut it out for no reason.

>>213551365 (OP)
No, he's a jew

>>213556027
It's more of a Half-Life style Resonance Cascade even than a "nuke." By all accounts, it looks like the Americans were researching interdimensional mechanics at the Institute for Spatial Studies, and accidentally made contact with something... and that "something" was malevolent.

That's how it would look to the rest of the world. It would actually specifically implicate Adrian in this case, because the Institute for Spatial Studies was a Veidt-funded laboratory.

The fact that Dr. Manhattan mysteriously goes missing shortly afterwards has even more dire implications, because when your most powerful weapon is suddenly gone, it's entirely possible to assume the worst and that the squid could be more powerful than Dr. Manhattan; or that the event that summoned the squid could also have possibly killed Dr. Manhattan. No way to tell, because nobody but Adrian knows what happened to Dr. Manhattan, and he's not coming back.

So essentially, if you don't have reader-privileged information about the squid incursion, it looks like some science experiment gone horribly wrong, and it's not unreasonable to point the finger at Americans for trying to mess with forces beyond their control or understanding (because they've done it before, with Dr. Manhattan). It's entirely possible for the rest of the world to unite against America in this case, rather than sympathize with them. Adrian's squid plan could very easily have backfired.

>>213556239
>And if they needed a few million deaths to knock some sense into themselves and stop toying with killing billions, then they made that necessary.
You're saying that as if the lives of these few million people would not have already been forfeit in a nuclear exchange. As far as the soviets would have been concerned, the squid monster saved them a nuke.

>>213551365 (OP)
To the public, yes. To the people who actually knew, no, they knew he was a psycho.

>>213556565
As I said before, the squig plan has many flaws. I 100% agree with you on that.
But still, it has some chances of succeding (al least in short term) since at first glance it looks like an exterior threat.
Blaming Dr Manhattan on the other hand would have 100% failed and everyone would have immediately blamed America.

>>213556216
I'm sorry for being mean

>>213556565
>for the rest of the world to unite against America in this case
And what would that achieve? The world is already divided in two and can't get more against either US or Russia. They attack America, the world goes up in flames. The Americans and Soviets had direct lines to communicate with each other and were being very honest with each other about movements so that there would be no accidental nuclear strikes. The Soviets knew they could essentially trust the Americans to say if it was an attack or not, and the Americans said no. Doesn't matter if you don't like that.