What was with these games pushing revenge bad?

When was revenge good?

>>712709053 (OP)
It's an old cop trope, retarded writers who grew up on some movie slop think it's le smart

>>712709365
That father who killed the air traffic controller

>>712709505
grow up

>>712709053 (OP)
Because bad people won and they obviously don't want people to revenge on them
Notice how old movies the good guy always killed/humiliated the bad guy

>>712709053 (OP)
When you think about who funds them you will understand.
Revenge is good btw and your god mandated duty.

>>712709505
He stabbed that dude to death in front of his kids

>>712709568
>manga
>grow up

>>712709053 (OP)
it's the go to theme for a hack

>>712709053 (OP)
It's very goy-coded.
You want you should get revenge? Oy vey

>>712709568
>violence is bad
That's some virtue signalling retardation

>>712709568
i wonder what this author's political views are

>>712709753
They can grow up and continue the revenge if it's a never-ending cycle, as fiction teaches us

>>712709630
>>712709684
>>712709849
/thread

>>712709053 (OP)
It's one of those tropes that has been subverted for so long that the default state goes extinct.
>>712709365
Always.

>>712709365
In 2009

>>712709365
The dad who headshotted the pedo that molested his son. IIRC he was given a slap on the wrist, a few hours of community service.

>>712709053 (OP)
Red Dead Redemption 1 was literally a revenge bad story too. But i'm sure you knew that

>>712710046
Nah, that was dumb. He risked killing some rando journalist and/or getting himself sent to prison when his kid needed him the most

>"NOOOOOOO IF YOU KILL ME YOU'LL BE JUST LIKE ME!"
>"lol k"
>bang.

>"revenge is a fool's game" - he said to the kid right after robbing a widow and her kid blind for the second time in a row, when he also beat the kids father to death in front of him
>he also said that line while smiling and counting a fat stack of cash
As a certified media literacy award owner, i see the true subtone, which implies anyone who says "revenge bad" is usually the kind of person afraid of revenge

>>712709053 (OP)
Revenge only works if you do it in totality. If you leave at least one person with a means and reason to seek revenge back then you fail.

RDR2's revenge wasn't bad, it just had consequences, and in the end Jack's revenge settled it anyway. Don't put it next to Last Of Us 2.

>just let destructive actions have no to little consequence
>bro just walk away, lmao what are you, a child?

>>712710294
>kill one piece of shit that has been a vindictive prick all his life and murdered countless others
>UR JUST LIKE HIM!!
Gay trope, kill the cunt. Some people deserve to die.

>>712710389
Thank God for you anon.

La venganza nunca es buena, mata el alma y la envenena

>>712710759
!!! WARNING !!!
!!! SPIC DETECTED !!!
GO BACK YOU FUCKING BROWN SPIC ILLEGAL WETBACK

ICE HAS BEEN NOTIFIED

>>712709053 (OP)
That's why New Vegas is the greatest game of all time.

>>712710240
>when his kid needed him the most
I'm gonna assume that moment was when he was being molested, not after

>>712709053 (OP)
Subliminal programming to produce a generation of passive whites.

The total happiness in the world increased.

It would be cool if one Batman villain was essentially a different Batman who was willing to murder the criminals instead of sending them to jail/Arkham and inevitably letting them reoffend endlessly

>>712709365
Revenge is great.

>>712710943
>needed him the most
ESL use this all the time without thinking what it means

>>712710949
>the best revenge is to forget about them completely and move on with your life and thrive
>living well is the best revenge
>success is the only revenge one needs
>not caring is the best revenge
>forgive and move on, that's actual revenge

>>712709053 (OP)
jews want their cattle to be forgiving and forgetful so all their propaganda promotes it

>>712709365
Dishonored. Where the "good" route involves giving all your enemies a fate worse than death, rather than just stabbing them to death.

>>712711543
Also Call of Juarez gunslinger actually executed it well by giving you an actual choice between grimly pursuing your revenge to the end, even though you technically commited way more murder than the person you were chasing all this time, or accepting that it's time to finally let go and choose a peaceful conclusion

>>712709365
Since the dawn of humanity? What else is supposed to keep humans in check if not the threat of retaliation?

>>712709684
God literally says don't take vengeance because it belongs to him.

>>712709053 (OP)
Revenge is only "good" at small scale, at large scale it gets really really bad really really fast

>>712710943
>your kid has been through a horrific experience, now he needs you more than ever
>UH HUM, WELL, ACTUALLY, TECHNICALLY, HE NEEDED YOU MORE THAN EVER WHILE HE WAS BEING RAPED, SARR
>DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE, SARR
>I AM CONTRIBUTING

>>712710668
I hate that “You’ll be just like him if you kill him!” moralfagging when you have the chance to kill the big bad guy after you gunned down hundreds of other people earlier just to reach this point

>>712709505

>>712709053 (OP)
I miss those time when revenger was actually good.

>>712709053 (OP)
jew overlords wanting their eye for eye for themselves

>>712709912
not if you kill them DUH

>>712710019
kek the faggy ezio didnt have the balls to kill the pope after that long bodycount

>>712709365
When a man is killed by a beast like a bear or an alligator, hunters will track down the beast and kill it.
This is important because you don't want to let that beast breed and create offspring that will see humans as defenseless prey.
Enforcing the message that evil cannot simply get away with its deeds will create a safer future for the children.

>>712709365
Good cattle. Revenge is bad. Trust the government.

>>712709365
when the system doesn work

>>712709053 (OP)
Will any pacifist explain to me why revenge is bad? When I was a kid, I always wanted to ask Batman why he didn't kill, and even he seemed to answer in one of the cartoons, and it was always some kind of uncertain answer, absolutely retarded as fuck.

>>712709365
Literally always, and anyone saying otherwise just wants you emasculated, docile and helpless

>revenge is bad
most obvious kike psyop to make white people submissive cucks

>>712712793
If you kill a killer, the amount of killers in the world stays the same.

>>712709365
Always.

>>712712876
What if I kill more than one

>>712709365
Everyone who responded to this besides me is a self-described christian btw

>>712710882
it was retarded though. youre a mailman and some thug jumped you for your valuables. whats the point of a revenge plot based on that? you might as well have a vendetta on everyone and everything in that case.

>>712709053 (OP)
revenge won't bring your wife and kids back
revenge won't undo that which has already been done
you can take revenge, but it won't solve anything, and you will still harbor within your heart the pain and anguish of loss and hatred that smolders in your soul, never to be abated.

let go.

>>712713663
No.
I will kill those who wrong me.

>>712713697
then you are choosing a self imposed condemnation, borne of suffering, and perpetuating even more suffering.

>>712713663
Actually it's good for relieving feelings of pain, anguish, loss and hatred
Go ask any inmate in prison

>>712712793
Retaliation against someone who wronged you when it's a measured, predictable and calculated response is fine but acting recklessly fueled by emotions leads to escalation and unintended consequences. That's how you end up with entire families decimated during the Renaissance in Italy, mexican cartel violence, and when rulers play this game you get war.

>>712709365

>>712713663
>you can take revenge, but it won't solve anything
It'll make the next dipshit think twice before fucking someone over

>>712713985
actually, it's not, because even if these feelings are initially tapered as a result of your actions, the knowledge of what has been lost will yet again emerge from the abyss that is your mind, never forgotten, always there, like a specter, haunting you with foreboding malice. you will forever live with the pain of what has come to pass, and no action you may take will ever undo it. that is the pain you must face, it is your charge, and you must learn to bear it, against your will. pitiable, true - but a noble mind can overcome, while the petulant child will go kicking and screaming into the night, sulking and ruminating on how shit life is.

only schizos think revenge good. revenge is, in fact, bad.

>>712714258
you a ponce ass nigga

>>712711301
Isn't that Red Hood?

>>712714154
there's always going to be a larger dipshit than you waiting around the corner, ready to throw his dick around and ever ready for the next dick measuring contest. he who brandishes violence to demand he get his way will forever keep his back against the wall out of necessity, lest he drop his guard and give any would be usurper an opportunity to strike. the sword of damocles is as much a curse as it is a symbol of authority.
>>712714312
your mother.

>>712709053 (OP)
But RDR2 didn't say revenge bad

>>712709568
>don't fight back, it's bad
>just allow them to kill you bro

>>712714461
please stop typing everything so faggoty

>>712714547
your. mother.

>>712714572
alright then type me out some more cringey poetry ya virgin

>>712713415
He shot you in the head and buried you. Fuck him. If you feel no rage at the thought of someone doing this to then you're too far gone.

>>712714417
ohh. I like when my ideas have already happened because it means they were good

>>712709053 (OP)
Revenge, grudges, the "blood-price", vengeance and honor are Indo-European concepts.
You'll figure it out
Forgiveness

>>712714591
ay blud be sus frfr ong gyat ohio rizzlin af.

that any better for you?

Tlou2 is not a revenge bad game

It's a descent into madness trip for ellie
And abby is a personal redmption story she is quite selfish except for those 3 days with yara lev.

You can't say tlou2 is a dumb revenge bad story unless you're filled with bloodlust you couldn't kill the tranny

>>712714759
Indubitably thou art a pearl before swine, forsooth

>>712709053 (OP)
What are you talking about? The game was clearly pro revenge when a woman wanted it. Saddie was flat out told what a strong independent woman she is because she wanted revenge. While the same person told his father figure revenge bad. So what did we learn from RDR2? Revenge bad when men do it but a lady wanting revenge is a good thing.

>>712714763
>descent into madness
ok fair point but that descent was preceded by a lust for revenge. it would not have happened had she not done the reasonable thing and mourned her loss without seeking out a blood tax.
>abby is a personal redemption story
her story is sort of out of left field all together, which I think is a major complaint about the writing. nobody gives a shit about redemption for a character they don't resonate with. arthur morgan might have been pulled out of rockstar's collective assholes, but he was related to john marston in some meaningful way, and not only that, they went out of their way to develop him over the course of an entire game. does abby receive the same nuance? even if she does, most people likely feel like her story should be secondary to ellie's, and whatever redemption she attains is second fiddle to the atrocities they've both left in their wake. at least arthur morgan is a deuteragonist who further contextualizes dutch's downfall and the ultimate dissipation of their little group, which sets the stage for marston's story. the same can't be said for abby, who might as well be a mary sue fanfiction asspull OC.

>>712714615
in that situatuon i would obviously experience rage, but after i survived that, why would i desire to seek him out in a world where 50% of the people are more than willing to try the same? it just seems like seeking out trouble for no reason. he didnt kill my mom or rape my dog. and why should being buried make it worse? if anything it says that he is capable of acknowledging human dignity.

>>712709053 (OP)
>>712709365
>>712709630
>>712709849
Old Testament Verses:
Leviticus 19:18 (NIV)
“Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against anyone among your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the Lord.”

Proverbs 20:22 (ESV)
“Do not say, ‘I will repay evil’; wait for the Lord, and he will deliver you.”

Proverbs 24:29 (NIV)
“Do not say, ‘I’ll do to them as they have done to me; I’ll pay them back for what they did.’”

New Testament Verses:
Romans 12:17-19 (NIV)
“Do not repay anyone evil for evil... Do not take revenge, my dear friends, but leave room for God’s wrath, for it is written: ‘It is mine to avenge; I will repay,’ says the Lord.”

1 Peter 3:9 (ESV)
“Do not repay evil for evil or reviling for reviling, but on the contrary, bless, for to this you were called, that you may obtain a blessing.”

Matthew 5:38-39 (NIV)
“You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’ But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also.”

>>712712017
This.

Shooting a nigga is easier than facing his kid's psychological trauma as a responsible parent.

>>712716271
>this oh mher gherd nigga like so much this
kys

>>712715831
Christcucks coming in with their faggot death cult take as usual.

>>712709053 (OP)
Jews have a vested interest in convincing goyim that seeking revenge on them is a moral failure.

>>712718528
You know how retarded you sound when you say this stuff right? I used to be as cringe as you until I grew up and realized jews don't run the world like /pol/ says

>>712718697
sounds like something a kike would say

>You know how retarded you sound when you say this stuff right? I used to be as cringe as you until I grew up and realized jews don't run the world like /pol/ says

>>712710294
Certified post-apocalypsecore

>>712709053 (OP)
RDR2 is more like "revenge cool but muh consequences"
TLOU2 is just gay cringe

>>712719450
What were Sadie's consequences?

>>712712793
Batman's big problem is that his villains, mainly Joker, keep getting worse and killing a bunch of people every time they get out, while Batman's no-kill autism has only gotten stronger over the years. It's really retarded, and occasionally a writer will make it even worse by having Batman exonerate Joker for a murder he didn't commit.

>>712709365
Civilization is built around the control of violence.

>>712715312
>it would not have happened had she done the reasonable thing and mourned her loss without seeking out a blood tax
But enough about Abby.

>>712709053 (OP)
John got his revenge though
>inb4 but the Pinkertons
John was going to get caught by the Pinkertons with or without the revenge, his house with like 10 minutes outside of Blackwater.

>>712713663
I wonder how much this is just a cultural thing though. If you lived in a culture where this was accepted and encouraged, and after you had done the deed and you returned home people would congratulate you and pat your back and say you're a hero, maybe it wouldn't lead to the downward spiral you talked about, and instead would be like a cathartic thing. And the thing that actually makes people empty afterwards is that they get ostracized by society, can't talk about it openly much, get more isolated if not imprisoned, etc.

>>712709365
like all of recorded history until jews captured the media and started pushing the "revenge bad" narrative to stop the goyim from killing them as revenge for ruining society.

>>712715831
>jews make religion that says "don't take revenge, just let bad things happen to you"
>jews don't even follow this religion
>they foist it on stupid goyim instead
>actual religion jews follow says "kill the goyim animals if they step out of line"
>they've literally assassinated US presidents and currently control almost every federal politician using this as the foundation of their beliefs
classic

If it wasn't for violence almost none of us would be here today.

Poor broken Ellie, i want to cuddle her so bad...

>>712712793
Because its a fantasy, heroes dont want responsibility or accountability for the people they save or villains they beat up. They just want punch people and be called good, and just let the system that caused the problem take care of the aftermath

>>712709365
When humans decided to have a justice system.

>>712719751
Good point I've never thought about. It didn't make sense for batman to kill when all his enemies were doing was turning city hall into a blimp or some other bullshit. Now that his enemies murder 5 people before breakfast, his morality really falls flat. How many children have died so that joker might live? Also, it's funny because old batman totally would kill you for turning city hall into a blimp.

>>712709568
I wonder, do people who spout moralizing bullshit like this actually believe it or is it merely a virtue signaling grift?

>>712712876
The amount of future victims goes down however, and that's what it's all about

>>712713794
No, I don't, because revenge is sweet and pleasant

>>712709365
Always. (When proportionate)

>>712723715
Exactly. If anyone ever killed my child, I would go out and kill their children back. This post may sound sarcastic but it isn't.

>>712720670
Just turn the other cheek.

>>712714521
There may be times where violence is necessary, but that doesn't make it righteous

>>712720498
>wonder how much this is just a cultural thing though
Turning the other cheek is a very christian thing.

>>712709365
If revenge is bad, then why does it feel so good?

>>712709053 (OP)
because they wanted to psyop people into not wanting revenge for the horrible things retards did during the fake china virus

>>712709053 (OP)
>Read dead 2
>Revenge
I'm sorry what? Did you even play the game? It was about following a dumbass who claims to what to leave robbing behind but never does. Revenge doesn't even come into the picture til the epilogues last mission. You stupid as fuck OP

anti-revengefags are christcucks who would turn the other cheek to Tyrone banging their wife kek lmao

>>712709365
Revenge is always good

>>712711739
>What else is supposed to keep humans in check if not the threat of retaliation?
Laws, retard. That's one of the big reasons they were invented.

>>712727439
What do you think laws are, dipshit?
How do you think they are enforced?

>>712727559
>What do you think laws are, dipshit?
The state imposing consequences for behavior, rather than the aggrieved party.

>>712709505
So is wikipedia wrong as usual or am I seeing it right that the dude, instead of killing the management that was cheaping out on staff, repairs and who knows what else, killed the worker unfortunate enough to be there at that time? Why do those fucking MBA faggots always get away with it?

>>712724313
Shut the fuck up, bitch.

>>712727686
In what fucking way if not retaliation for breaking the law?

>>712727967
Good morning, saar!

>>712709053 (OP)
There is at least something to be said about the cycle of violence. People will always believe that what they do is just, so once someone comes for revenge, the family and followers can't help but feel slighted. They will seek revenge themselves, on and on down the line. It is hard to sever, even when you are doing something like destroying a great evil. You just have to hope that someone, eventually, has enough humility to say no.

>>712728105
Pain spoke about this.

>>712727025
People always misinterpret that line. It wasn't about being a bitch and accepting punishments. It was that when you were hit, you were expected to submit and prostrate. Jesus said "Thank you bitch, can I have another?" It was a direct challenge of authority, saying not to submit to those that use violence as corrosion.

Revenge feels good, but so does raping

Its undeniably evil and there are systems that will punish you harshly for carrying out your revenge, but if you live in a lawless world then sure, go for it.

By the way, I know some cunt will say "this fucking faggot is saying that illegal=evil!", that isn't my point. It is evil because it brings suffering and harm to others, and in case you didn't care for that because it felt really good (like, undeniably good) there'll be systems in society that will make it be not worth it in the long run, mainly a legal system

>>712728412
>It was a direct challenge of authority
That doesn't make any sense. Jesus said that to his Jewish followers because they were under the heel of the Roman empire, and he didn't want them causing more trouble.

>>712728572
>thinks rape feels good, we just choose not to do it
You're retarded

>>712728412
it was more about "showing the other cheek" before they hit you would force the hitter to use the palm of their hand as opposed to their backhand, which was humilliating as fuck as it would make them look like a shitty unrefined cunt.

"Oh, you want to hit me? Using the back of your hand like gentlemen do to shoo away beggars? No, bitch, do it like a man, show everyone how you are just a violent dumbfuck"

I'm pretty sure you'll be able to find a better explanation if you research a bit tho. In any case its still true that the belief that Jesus asked for christians to not care about abuse is inmensively wrong

How many people are getting revenge that revenge bad has to be a common trope in all media?

>>712728793
what the fuck is wrong with choosing to not do evil?

Also, regret is not a social construct, but a natural state of being ingrained into every human so that we won't do evil things even if they would feel good in the moment

>>712728572
>Its undeniably evil

Was Gary Plauche evil?

>>712728974
even before looking up who that is, remember that people don't need to BE evil to do evil things. As you have also seen examples of very evil people doing benign things

Book of Mormon Verses:
3 Nephi 12:38-39
(Parallel to Matthew 5 — the Sermon on the Mount as delivered to the Nephites by the resurrected Christ)

"And behold, it is written, an eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.
But I say unto you, that ye shall not resist evil, but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also."

Mosiah 23:15
"Thus did Alma teach his people, that every man should love his neighbor as himself, that there should be no contention among them."

Mosiah 2:32-33
"...that ye should not transgress, that the punishment of God should not come upon you. It is better that ye should deny yourselves of these things, wherein ye will take up your cross, than that ye should be cast into hell..."

This passage discourages sinful behavior (like revenge) and emphasizes turning to God rather than taking matters into one’s own hands.

Alma 48:23
"Now they were sorry to take up arms against the Lamanites, because they did not delight in the shedding of blood; yea, and this was not all—they were sorry to be the means of sending so many of their brethren out of this world..."

This verse reflects a moral reluctance toward violence, even in justified war, and a broader ethic of mercy.

Doctrine and Covenants (D&C):
Doctrine and Covenants 98:23-24
"Now, I speak unto you concerning your families—if men will smite you, or your families, once, and ye bear it patiently and revile not against them, neither seek revenge, ye shall be rewarded;
But if ye bear it not patiently, it shall be accounted unto you as being meted out as a just measure unto you."

Doctrine and Covenants 64:9-10
"Wherefore, I say unto you, that ye ought to forgive one another; for he that forgiveth not his brother his trespasses standeth condemned before the Lord...
I, the Lord, will forgive whom I will forgive, but of you it is required to forgive all men."

>>712728572
Anyone who harms me is getting harmed back several times over. But not physically, because most physical pain can heal. I will commit psychological torture. I wouldn't shoot to kill, I would shoot our your kneecaps so you could never walk again.

>>712729247
okay
and?

>>712728974
>a man who took revenge on a pedophile who did unspekable things to his son

there are three ways to reply, I'll tell you which one I personally believe in at the end:

1-Yes, his act was still evil because it is bringing suffering onto another human being
2-No, because his act, despite being illegal, didn't bring suffering but, on the contrary, brought inmense joy to everyone, as nobody would defend the victim and every person was made happier with his death
3-No, because the victim was so horrible that despite being brought suffering he couldn't be considered a human being, not one worth respect/defense

I personally think the second option. The pedophile was so despised that his unjust execution vigilante-style by the father didn't bring any suffering to anyone, bringing even joy that is praised to this day, thus that particular case cannot be considered evil. The fact that Gary Plauche accepted his lawful punishment with dignity speaks volumes of his good character too
However, this is a very rare case. The number of murders or revenges that do not cause suffering for absolutely anyone are exceedingly rare. Even people guilty by association are still people and thus it would be evil to make them suffer

>>712728929
Because it's not something that normal people want to do. It shouldn't even be a choice

>>712710240
But he didn't kill anyone else and didn't get sent to prison.
>Taking a shot is always bad because there is a chance you might miss
Is retard logic that ignores skill and circumstance.

>>712730429
That's called "luck" you tard

>>712728030
>I can't reasonably argue out my absurd beliefs so I'll presume the other side is brown
Concession: accepted.

>>712723968
What if you killed someone's child (by accident). Would you be okay with your child killed then?

>>712730094
wherever we like it or not the choice always exists and its just only natural that nobody ever does it unless something is wrong, but it exists

It shouldn't be a choice, but it is, we have free will to do evil, and it is encouraging that with this free will humans still choose to do right

It's not exactly about morals but utility/humanity I think. Back before you'd have people taking revenge as they saw fit, and the end result was entire families wiping each other out with sometimes barely any involvement in the original instigating act. It's just a doom spiral.

>>712730959
No, you compared the broad idea of revenge to rape because they both feel good. That's a gross false equivalence, not just for the fact that rape isn't something that feels good and we all decide not to do it. A choice for you maybe, but not a choice for me

>>712728929
You didn't punish a person who harmed you. That person then continue to harm others, all because they got away with it first time.
It's evil to NOT FIGHT BACK

>>712731275
Which is why everybody who taints their own meal with chilli for when their greedy co-worker steals it eventually ends up dead in a ditch

In my opinion, even if you think they were trying to push that message with these games, or even if they actually did, it doesn't mean you have to look at it that way. You can either agree with it or not. I just saw it as a situation specific to these characters, not something you should generalize.

Also RDR2 was about redemption, as the title implies. Arthur's redemption. John's revenge was there, sure, but it felt pretty natural and agreable and it didn't feel like it was portrayed as bad. They wanted you to want to kill Micah. Haven't played TLOU2 yet but i am guessing it makes sense there too, although i hear they did pull a Naruto at the end there.

>>712719528
she got revenge but had to be the camp bicycle

>>712731665
>you compared the broad idea of revenge to rape because they both feel good.
yes
>That's a gross false equivalence,
no, its quite acfurate
>not just for the fact that rape isn't something that feels good and we all decide not to do it.
raping feels good, why would otherwise rapist comit it
>A choice for you maybe, but not a choice for me
you are not an animal without free will

>>712731747
>fight back
Revenge isn't fighting back. Fighting back is rightheous because it seeks to stop violence or injustice. Revenge is about re-starting the suffering and violence once its all over and there's nothing that needs being protected

>>712733030
if you weren't there for the shitstorm of that game I'll tell you that TLOU2 is infamous by how inmensively dogshit its message is. They try to sell "revenge bad", but the ugly terrible character who kills Joel, the one who gets her revenge, ends the story alive, happy and with his boyfriend, and the one who didn't follow up on her revenge, Ellie, is miserable, sad, without fingers and alone

>>712735094
No i was there, and i know the story but i don't see this as a "revenge bad" message. I just see it as a shit story.

>>712709849
>implying that kikes aren’t the most petty shits known to man
Half the Torah is just Jews wishing retribution on everyone that screwed them over

Revenge is good when it proportional. It becomes a problem when innocents get caught in the crossfire and it creates an endless cycle of conflict though.

>>712709568
Doesn't this cuck author have children? Someone sohuld go to his house and viciously threaten to murder his children outside their school's gates while giving the exact schedule they follow and detailed knowledge of their route back home and see if he changes his mind.

>>712720514
The Count of Monte Cristo was published in the 19th century and its message is “revenge is bad”.

Also, there’s a verse from The Bible which says “Vengeance is mine, sayeth The Lord”.

>>712711371
>>the best revenge is to forget about them completely and move on with your life and thrive
This is unironically the only good, pacifist alternative to revenge.

>>712709053 (OP)
So, did the whole point of RDR2 flew right over your head?

>>712735902
It’s definitely a good form of revenge in the sense that what they did isn’t traumatising you/ ruining your life anymore, and it also means if you live better than them, then they’ll do enough bad things that it will eventually catch up with them.

It’s like a form of giving them enough rope to hang themselves with.

>>712709053 (OP)
Because 9/10 times when retards talk about “taking revenge” it just means shooting up a random supermarket or chimping out at complete strangers. The reason we’re supposed to have a impartial justice system is because most people take “a eye for a eye” as “a eye for both your eyes, legs, and your wife”

>>712727687
I'm sad to say it, but yes, Wikipedia is correct and anyone who is pro what the grief deranged father did and don't simply pity the situation deserve your derision
>>712730429
He fired his gun into a crowded airport terminal

>>712723968
You should kill them instead. Their child did nothing to you.

>>712736194
I think it’s a difficult question because Justice is often tepid, can be corrupted/bought and also doesn’t always take into account the victim’s feelings. The victim taking matters into their own hands, on the other hand usually results in the victim being consumed by hatred to the point that go completely scorched Earth and end up hurting people who weren’t even involved in the conflict to begin with.

You ideally want to find a middle ground between the two, but that’s hard.

>>712736459
>victim being consumed by hatred to the point that go completely scorched Earth and end up hurting people who weren’t even involved in the conflict to begin with.
The plot of Last of Us 2 in a nutshell.

>>712709365
Successfully getting revenge is unironically mentally healing. It lets you let go of past slights, very cathartic.

>>712711348
Most based quote I have ever read.

>>712736663
Ehh. Sort of. Some of the people Ellie kills were involved somehow.

There’s nothing wrong with TLOU2’s plot conceptually. It’s mostly just the absolutely tone deaf execution and Druckmann’s political soap-boxing that hurts it.

>>712736759
I think that depends. If you get your revenge and that’s the end of it, then yes, but if consequences/retaliation follows (which it often does), then you’re no better off than where you started.

>rdr2
>revenge bad

People get upset at TLOU2 because Ellie killed so many people to get to Abby only to let her live in the end. The whole game builds up to that point, as a player you want to yell at Ellie to just stop and move on with her life instead of digging herself deeper and deeper in, its obviously not making anything better and so when that moment comes you've been waiting the whole fucking game for her to do exactly what she does.

Being upset that she doesn't kill her is just odd to me. I get the knee-jerk thing of "well she killed hundreds to get to her" but so what?
>what's one more gonna do
indeed, what is one more going to do? nothing.

Getting revenge on micah is survival, he is an ever present danger to you

>>712709753
He should have killed the wife and kids instead and let Nielsen live.

>>712737249
It’s both. It’s putting down an active threat AND revenge. That’s why killing him is 100% justified and is treated as such by the story.

>>712709053 (OP)
RDR2 wasnt pushing "revenge bad" it was pushing "Your actions have consequences, no matter how hard you try to change."

>>712709053 (OP)
was there even "revenge"?
the story was so railroaded you couldn't really make any choices at all
just remembering the mission where you have to free micah from prison brings my piss to a boil

>>712709053 (OP)
Because revenge stories have consistently been among the most popular stories since the invention of dramatic storytelling. It's easy to write too, because it naturally incorporates rage and tragedy which are one of the most powerful emotions and one of the two classic literary tones, respectively.
Anyone in this thread that is trying to moralize a FICTIONAL STORY is retarded, anyone who tries to suggest there is some agenda beyond writing a sellable story is retarded. Touch grass + fuck you all

>>712737201
I do see what Druckmann was TRYING to go for. Ellie digs a deeper and deeper whole for herself, which each kill making her increasingly morally depraved to the point that it destroys her humanity. So she tries to spare Abby in an attempt to get some of her humanity back.

The problem with this is that Abby did nothing to earn mercy. All her cronies were way more deserving of mercy than her. Abby undeniably had it coming, and she did nothing to redeem herself. Whereas the other people Ellie killed, you could at least defend.

>>712737201
>Being upset that she doesn't kill her is just odd to me
Because contextually it's completed retarded. It's like ordering some furniture from ikea, researching and buying some tools if needed, getting a friend to come over and help you, building 99% of it, and then on the final screw needed you go "nah not worth it" and trash it because before you ordered it you thought "man is this really going to take the 4+ hours and work it'll take to build it? It's probably not worth it".
Ellie had multiple opportunities to stop before she killed people as part of/caused by her revenge. If you are genuinely saying you can't see the difference between stopping before she kills anyone or stopping after she kills 299 out of 300 people and you aren't just trolling, then you're simply wrong.
>indeed, what is one more going to do? nothing.
It's going to complete her revenge for one, and means that the sacrifices she made to get to that point atleast fulfilled some sort of purpose rather than being literally for nothing. Abby also didn't change at all except going from anavar hulk to emaciated goblin. So there's really nothing to cause Ellie to doubt her own actions except feeling sorry for her at the end?

>>712737201
>Have a goal in mind
>People want to kill you to prevent you from achieving said goal
>You kill them back because what the fuck are you gonna do?
>Get to the goal
>Don't do it
Congrats, in your attempt to paint REVENGE BAD you've created an even worse fucking monster in the process.

>>712727950
>Revengetard can only seethe impotently
lmao

If Joels death wasn't leaked and Abby was cute, Lou2 would be celebrated by everyone. Some people complain about the liberal rhetoric in the game, but the characters cover a wide range of political perspectives and ideologies. I

>>712734978
>no, its quite acfurate
See >>712731786 If you don't get the difference between rape and general revenge then I doubt I can help you
>raping feels good, why would otherwise rapist comit it
Some people think mango tastes good, therefore all people like mango
>you are not an animal without free will
Now that's just cowardly philosophising for teenagers losing an argument. "But we don't have free will", "But time is just a concept". Blah blah fucking blah

>>712737769
She spared Ellie twice, the second time was after Ellie had killed all of her friends. How the fuck didn't she earn that mercy?
>>712737961
>and means that the sacrifices she made to get to that point atleast fulfilled some sort of purpose rather than being literally for nothing
It already was all for nothing. Ellie should have learned this after the theater when Abby spared her, but she didn't, she dug deeper, nothing done after this was going to change anything.
>So there's really nothing to cause Ellie to doubt her own actions except feeling sorry for her at the end?
She does it for Joel, its him she sees when she decides against killing her, its not his bloodied corpse, its him on the porch during their last conversation, the one they had about Ellie wanting to try to forgive him. So in that moment she forgives Joel and does the right thing

and if your next point is that Joel would have wanted her to murder abby then I won't even bother replying

>>712738989
>dude none of it matters so it never mattered and stopping at ANY point is the same
Don't reply to me retard.

>>712739102
Here's a legitimate question and not an argument or anything. When you were playing the game, did you the entire time think "I need Ellie to murder Abby, she needs to see this through"?

>>712738552
>calling something as petty as putting chilly in meals a revenge
aha, talking to you was a waste of time

>>712709365
It's called justice.

>>712741149
Serving a sentence for a crime is justice. That is not a form of revenge.

>>712709053 (OP)
Why does right have a better ass?

>>712714521
If you read Vinland saga there's an entire arc criticising that stance and how retarded it is. You cannot claim to support and want peace if you will not act to prevent harm.

>>712735817
Most people who lose their family this way don't go out looking for revenge. They will feel emotional pangs and anguish and might even wish for it but most do not. Some because they are incapable of doing so, lacking the means, but the others because they know it is wrong. The righteous will seek proper methods of justice while the vengeful often are punished and the cycle continues. That is reality.

>>712709568
>"you shouldn't glorify violence..."
>"...which means you should glorify pacifism!!!"
This is the most midwit manga ever and I'm glad I dropped it

>>712742738
The fact that you think there's anything wrong with killing a child killer is worrying.

>>712709053 (OP)
"Revenge bad" is pushed because it emphasizes the illusion of ethics upon the rabble through demonizing reprisal, which is important if you're the piece of shit who seeks to control the narrative so as to escape reprisal yourself.

>>712742840
Nah, I think it's quite natural. It's being posted in this thread so people will hand out (you)s, but that's beside the point. I think it's easier for most people to tear down everything they believe in and go to the opposite extreme than it is to slowly work your way through the nuance

>>712709365
when Israel bombs hospitals and guns down civilians at aid stations because terrorists took some hostages

>>712743107
All anyone needs to know is if you pursue revenge dig two graves. That's it. No moralizing just reality. If you want it go do it.

>>712714763
>descent into madness
Until she stops 3 seconds before the finish line. Oops :)
>abby is a personal redmption story
Is it really? Does it come across like that when she betrays comrades she's known for 5 years to protect a couple people she's known for 3 days? Or when she takes glee at slicing the throat of a pregnant woman, at the end of said three days?

>>712726934
t. speedreader

>only game to do the revenge bad thing is a 5 hour FPS that no one played
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ld1XM3brjTU

>>712743996
to do it right*

>>712738989
Is sparing Ellie an act of mercy? She just stopped cause Lev didn't want her to go any further. If not, then Dina and Ellie would have died right there.

>>712733030
>demake
Also, have you watched the different interviews surrounding the game made by the devs? Or the commentary on Season 2 between the show director and Druckmann? The 100% intended effect was for the player to dislike Abby while playing as Ellie, then understand and come to like her while playing as her, then feeling torn when the stories align again and the two leads fight each other. They wanted the player to feel for both and to be torn when they think both are right. Only they screwed up given most players didn't see it that way. They failed to construct a coherent narrative in the way it was presented, which is why the show desperately tried to make Abby more likeable by introducing her first before the Joel twist instead of after

>>712744159
Lev is directly tied into her redemption as a character, so yes

>>712709412
>movie slop
Jesus christ can you fags enjoy a single thing

>>712744275
Well, I think you're right desu, but I also think that the game is asking too much too.

>>712737201
>The whole game builds up to that point
How so?
>as a player you want to yell at Ellie to just stop and move on with her life
No I don't. Even if I did, she decided to go to Santa Monica not me. The second she leaves the farm and goes back to the grind, what would make her stop before the very last corpse in the making?
>I get the knee-jerk thing of "well she killed hundreds to get to her"
Alright
>but so what?
But so "what", what?

>>712737769
The issue with that as well is that Naughty Dog forgot they were making a videogame where the main gameplay mechanic revolves around killing people. There's no non-lethal abilities, you're meant to stab people in the neck with your knife and blow them up with IEDs. How can I take the plot seriously when Ellie loses her shit after killing Nora when, in gameplay, I killed *A HUNDRED* people Rambo style right before that? I've beaten a dozen people to death already with a pipe. I waited until they were on their knees begging, then stopped, then when they got back up and started shooting again because the game's shit, I finished the job. Hell, I fed people to the fucking zombies (by holding them, then walking into a Clicker). Why the FUCK would I believe Ellie to feel bad after Nora? Why would I believe she'd stop with Abby when in gameplay I was a mix between Max Payne and Solid Snake?

>>712709887
Non-subhuman.

>>712709053 (OP)
>>712709365
The point of the moral is not that revenge itself is bad, it's that if you walk the path of revenge you need to give up everything. The entire 'Two graves' thing. It's ultimately a question of what it's worth.
If you had three kids, someone kills one of them, seeking justice to be done isn't bad. But if the path you need to follow to enact that justice sees your other kids dead, is it worth it? Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't, it's ultimately you who needs to decide.

>>712743996
>>712744069
>Totally let a mass murder go because MUH CHANGE OF LIFE
Naw, the fucker get the bullet
>BUT IT MIGHT HURT DWIGHT
He decided to have soldiers point their guns at kids because segregation. Fuck you.

>>712715831
Man, Jesus was based.

>>712738989
>I didn't kill you after I caved your father's skull in in front of you, why are you mad?
>I didn't kill you after I shot your uncle and best friend in the head, beat you to a pulp and almost sliced your gf's throat (I stopped only because the kid I'm with looked at me sadly, not because I actually wanted to stop. Had he not been there I would've gone through with it)
Get out of here with that shit

>>712742738
>Some because they are incapable of doing s
Most*
We don't live in a post-apocalyptic setting where every second person in the world carries a gun and nobody holds any laws outside quarantine zones

>>712744750

There's a big time gap, and in the santa barbara it is justified to kill slavers regardless.


Ellie should have killed abby in the theatre but she lost that's when her revenge arc faltered

>>712709053 (OP)
The devs are afraid of being targeted, themselves.

>>712745018
>But if the path you need to follow to enact that justice sees your other kids dead, is it worth it?
Seems more like bad writing to me but whatever.

>>712710668
Kill the cunt, then kill the retard saying retarded things, unless it's a subvert saying subversive things, but then you kill the subvert.

>>712739494
NTA and holy shit, yes

>>712745018
>if you walk the path of revenge you need to give up everything
If you're giving everything up might as well go all the way then. But Ellie gives everything up then stops before the single most important person to have to kill

This kind of logic is retarded
>hero kill trillions of minion
>get to the one guy that started it all this shit
>one of your friend tell you that if you kill him, you will be just like him
>hero let him go
>next game or episode have that kill kill another trillions of innocent lives
this always annoys me

>>712709365
Tales of Berseria

>>712709365
Season 1 of Vrains was a special kind of story where the MC was a reclusive autist loner that did got his revenge in the end with the death of the person responsible that turn him into the person he is now.

It's not even a jewish thing. Elites the world over since time immemorial tried to preach the value of "turning the other cheek" to their equivalent of cotton-picking negroes for understandable reasons. It's just a perennial element of ruling ideology, meant to instill false consciousness in the exploited peons.

>>712711371
>If you kill your enemies, they win.
t. Your Enemies

>>712709053 (OP)
it means if you are white you shouldn't take revenge against those who wronged you because that would be antisemitic

>>712747310
Though to clarify, it IS a jewish thing, but it is by no means an exclusively jewish thing. They're just its loudest and most conspicuous apostles in the present.

>>712745606
>There's a big time gap
There sure as fuck isn't a timegap between my first hundred kills and Nora
>it is justified to kill slavers regardless
But I thought everyone's the protagonist of their own story, you shouldn't judge people without truly knowing and that you should be careful not to kill unnecessary people else they're gonna get revenge on you?

>>712746771
Because nameless npcs rarely ever count. It's like how nobody gives a shit about how dumb it is Vegita for example, was allowed to become a good guy that people like.

>>712709053 (OP)
Eye for an eye makes the world go blind.

>>712728572
>God says he'll dole out revenge in your stead
>some shithead politician says the government will dole out revenge in your stead
Is anyone gonna call out the government for trying to supplant God?

>>712748340
Everyone being blind would make the world a meek place, so then the meek truly would inherent the Earth just like Jesus wanted. Better stab yourself bro.

>>712746482
Yeah, that's why it's considered a shit ending.

>>712736090
>then they’ll do enough bad things that it will eventually catch up with them.
Doesn't this imply someone else took out revenge on them?
>N-n-no!
Not like it matters, you're not arguing in good faith, anyways.

>>712737961
>seeking revenge is... le sunk cost fallacy!
That's a novel brand of retardation I haven't seen, before.

so are these games supposed to a ppeal to 0.00001 percent of people who were severely wronged by other people and now they consider revenge by killing them?

>>712752948
you can relate to certain traumas even if you havent experienced it yourself. ex, your surrogate dad gets brutally murdered in front of you. never happened to me but i understand why ellie is so upset because i can empathize with her.

>>712709053 (OP)
yes, the americans were very bad for trying to exact revenge on dutch's gang when they were just poor boys trying to make enough money to go away farm mangoes.

>>712752948
You believe all those movies about taking revenge on assholes that wronged you were made for 0.00001 percent of people?

>>712709365

>>712727687
You can always shift the responsibility onto someone else, the guy didn't get any and didn't feel anything. The father came to talk to him, but all he saw was a normie who doesn't care so this infurriater him

>>712746771
It's a narrative approved by police and reinforced by references to the Bible.
Nobody should administer justice except the police and the court because in other way this would lead to a crisis of power in the society
Batman is the glowie-approved version of Shadow

>>712744259
the "demake" had some kino stuff, sorry not sorry

>>712709053 (OP)
it make jewish people uncomfortable

>>712709053 (OP)
They don't want actions to have consequences, nor crimes punishment.
Typical communists.

>don't beat up a guy who owes you money and borrowed it expressly knowing the possibility that you'd probably beat him up if he didn't pay because you'll get tuberculosis

>>712710019
The french dub is kino during that scene. ACII is a fucking classic

>>712758572
that's a really bad take on the entire thing, lol

>>712760507
but it's what the game wants you to think about
if you're writing a "stop being a psycho criminal" story, don't make the actual reason be something so stupid and that could've happened just as easily from Arthur saving the TB man from some kind of horse accident or something

>>712709053 (OP)
>RDR2
>revenge bad
Are you dumb?

>>712760596
>but it's what the game wants you to think about
not true at all, the game wants you to think about Arthur's attempts to redeem himself before death

>>712760704
and the reason for why he's dying is stupid
do I have to explain why one more time?

>>712760767
you can call anything you don't like stupid, they decided to write that and that's that

>>712760935
if you have no complaints with the vehicle for the main character's "redemption" being fucking stupid, then you too are fucking stupid

>>712761017
me and about 70 mil people i guess

>>712714150
Based
>In 2024, Jody appeared in an interview for the Mirror in which he stated that he was happy with his life and regarded his father as "the greatest dad of all time".

>>712724313
To commit violence against serial child rapists is extremely righteous. God literally gives you a free pass to heaven for doing such a righteous deed.

>>712709753
BASED.

>>712724313
"righteous" in what sense?
there's dozens if not hundreds of examples in most holy texts that cite using a sword on the wicked is perfectly fine and often the duty of a good man

>>712761237
Sadly, he also turn gay from the experience.

>>712709505
qrd

The entire REVENGE BAD! Idea is pushed by bigwigs because they want you thinking getting even with someone who wronged you is evil and will somehow make you a worse person.

That way they can fuck with you all day and garnish your wages for fun without anyone looking for justice.

>>712726609
Many carnal things that aren't good for you feel good. This is a form of appeal to nature. Everyone desiring revenge is how wars never end, revenge creates a neverending cycle.

>>712746926
>revenge coincides with doing the right thing
>protagonist still comes to terms with it being the wrong way to live through her journeys
Yeah, I'll consider that good too.

>>712765713
>>revenge coincides with doing the right thing
Hate this shit, what a cop-out

>>712709053 (OP)
Does RDR really push the revenge bad narrative though?
John's story in 1 isn't about revenge, he's forced into hunting down his old friends by the government and gets gunned down because he's a wanted ex-outlaw. Jack gets revenge but you never see him actually get punished for it other than knowing it's not the life that his parents wanted for him.

RDR 2 isn't really a revenge story either. It's in the name, it's about redemption. John gets revenge on Micah at the end but again there's no actual repercussions for him gunning some other outlaw down on top of a mountain. His eventual fate is down to all of the murdering and robbing he's already comitted beforehand.

>>712764953
And assholes never being punished leads to them being assholes forever.
>B-b-but what about OTHER asshole!?
Revenge killing in the streets isn't common, only because there's an asshole too big for other assholes to challenge, who can take whatever they want without fear of reprisal. That giga asshole is called the government, and being the biggest asshoke in the vicinity doesn't mean they're the good guy, or necessarily any better than the minor assholes.

>>712718697
>jews: hey goy revenge bad! oy vey and redeem jewish goyslop. never forget 6 gorillions
>also jews: kvetch!! never forget what romans did to us, we hold a grudge against every single non jew in the world

>>712709053 (OP)
TLoUII was pushing it because it was being written by dim people.
RDRII wasn't trying to lecture about or pushing revenge at any level.

Mentioning these together is like comparing a shopping cart with a wobbly wheel to a Ford Mustang with a V8 engine.

>>712709568
Just a reminder his colony was btfo and those that survived could only cope and say that it failed because it wasn’t real pacifism.

>>712711348
God damn, what a good quote

Revenge is fine, not particularly good or bad. Pursue it if you must, but you better build something with your life after that, because revenge alone wont fill the void.

>>712709365
Yes.

>>712735205
It's absolutely a revenge bad story in many ways. Every reviewer, critic or shill, will say so. The story is deliberately trying to make you feel bad about Ellie's actions, the killing of that one cunt who called Joel a little bitch is framed in an unnerving lighting and Ellie breaks down after that (even though she killed thousands before that somehow this earned kill breaks her sanity).

It's not solely about revenge, I actually find one part of the final development to be redeemable (the fact that it's more about reconciling with the fact Joel died without knowing her feelings, this is actually relatable and nice). But revenge bad is absolutely a part of it, and it's handled terribly.

>>712742335
What differentiates revenge from justice? Being enforced by the government? The emotions of the enforcers?

>>712742335
>>712741149
>Justice
>everyone in the city knows he fucking evil and did all the bad shit that cause them to be in the state that they are in
>try to trial him
>got off scot free
>SA riot
Yeah sure

>>712709568
How do you create a just society without the threat of violence being an option for those that seek to upset and overturn it with violence.

>>712709365
when justice can't exist

>>712769139
TLOU2's true ending as far as I'm concerned:
>walk to the beach
>see the crosses
>see mulan and the hulk bitch hanging
>see [interact prompt]
>don't interact and enjoy the view
>walk back towards where you came from
>pretend Ellie goes back to Jackson, all fingers intact and vengeance completed
>watch credits (optional) and uninstall

>>712769859
forgot to add:

revenge good

>>712769859
That would actually be a decent ending as far as I'm concerned.

Other good ending would be for Ellie to burn the fucking cross while the troon watches. Yes, pretty dark. Ellie deserved her revenge, but still dark, and that would be a nice ending where she kinda loses her mind.

>>712709053 (OP)
that's not what RDR2 is about you fucking retard. I don't even know how you would be able to pretend it is. fucking shit eating nigger.

>>712769365
The direct involvement of the enforcers.

>>712770437
What do you mean by "direct"? If I want revenge and hire a guy to hire an assassin to kill the guy for me, is it okay since I had two levels of abstraction between me and the murder?

>>712769937
I don't buy the regular ending at all. And having she-hulk being "emasculated" and fucked with by a convenient third party to gather pity points didn't sit well with me at all. She still bounces Ellie around like some ragdoll and destroys her hand as well.
She should've gone mad and just shot them both, I agree.

>>712769859
>a group of strangers appraoch at the end
>they pull guns on ellie
>its the sons and daughters of some of the people she killed
>game ends, we dont know what happens
It is the height of terrible writing that the game says "revenge bad" but then assumes that everyone in the entire universe besides Ellie and Hulkster are the only ones who have agency to take revenge. Why would everyone else call quits on revenge just because these two decided to stop.

>>712770696
It's retarded on so many levels. Like
>yeah I'll execute these two yankees without any second thought
>but I'm going to FREE Abby
>okay... I changed my mind now we need a death fight
>okay you bit off two of my fingers and by all means I would 100% keep killing you due to adrenaline but I'll let you go after all lmao

You're not sparing SHIT after you lost two fingers. ESPECIALLY in the middle of a deathbattle.

Damn what a dogshit thread.

>>712709053 (OP)
Jews don’t want you striking back.

>>712709365
That guy who shot his son’s rapist in the head on camera as he left the court room. I heard at his own trial they let him off.

>>712710949
>>712712429
I truly believe this is the plan

>>712761582
Now you know why fags deserve death for the damage they do to young boys

>>712709365
>>712771579
Heres a lesser talked about one that was similar to that.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YnaOvWeiBQw

>>712770562
Vengeance is never justice, but justice can be vengeful. Remember that, anon-kun...

>>712772489
kek

>>712709053 (OP)
Zero iq troglodyte take

>>712735454
>I'm a retard who doesn't understand basic things, let me all show you how dumb I am
Thank you, anon. Great job.