Why does neo-/v/ hate dungeon crawlers?

idk I don't remember ever seeing fucking anybody discuss shit like wizzery or M&M (outside of homm) on /v/ a decade or more past, but I see threads on them reasonably often these days, I think neo-/v/ has a relatively favorable view of them

hard to see past all the gachashit and astroturfing, tho

>>713437232 (OP)
FACT:
If you did not visit each tree in Castle Alamos, even if you already knew the password, you did not beat the game.

>neo-/v/ was 15 years ago

>>713437232 (OP)
I remember I got totally filtered by the cave dungeon in the starting area because the bats gave you disease way before you could get cure disease so I had to keep running back to the temple to get cured.

>>713437232 (OP)
>Why does neo-/v/ hate dungeon crawlers?
Zoomers have no culture. They are subhuman pigs that grew up on Fortnight and phone games.

>>713437232 (OP)
i love them, but i hate when they use realistic portraits they're so bad. i still can't into baldur's gate (i know it's not a crawler but still) for this reason

>>713437232 (OP)
the concept of controlling a bunch of people from a single POV just never sat right with me

But I don't

>>713437232 (OP)
Once I maxed out my party's stats and figured out how the circus worked I got infinite money and decked out everyone in +30 gear.

>>713437232 (OP)
because they're either turn based cringe, or the combat is just awful in general, name 1 good dungeon crawler that isnt some shitty horror game bait or a dull tabletop game in 3d form.

Some of the mastery requirements for MM7 make no sense.
>Monk gets master armsmaster, despite the fact that it's main specialty is unarmed fighting while armsmaster is a bonus for wielding weapons.
>Archer gets master spear which lets you equip your off hand, but the only weapon he could use in the off hand is dagger.

>>713438913
Monks get GM staff, which works with both unarmed and armsmaster.

i had fun with the new wizzer but the gay ass dragon event grind burned me out. when they add a new dungeon and maybe some hot chick i'll come back
other than that i think the genre is just dead

I played this based on a recommendation from /v/. It was soulful.

Gameplay is terrible

>>713437232 (OP)
R u retarded? /v/ always talk about that genre, specifically SMT. They can't shut up about it

>>713437232 (OP)
Kek.
Class: Level 3 Coal Burner
Status Effect: Toll Paid

>>713437232 (OP)
I enjoy dungeon crawlers but I’ve never played Wizardry or Might & Magic, what’s the best starting point for both?
Ideally I’d prefer to play the Western Wizardry before branching out to the millions of Jap spinoffs

>>713437913
i think the real portraits are cool, you don't really see that in any other genre

>>713442767
They don't need to. They use face scan of Debra instead.

>>713437232 (OP)
Only if they are blobbers

>>713442767
Best portraits are from Dungeon Master.

Anything good came out this year?

>>713437232 (OP)
I like Etrian Odyssey series, especially post 3.

>>713437232 (OP)
I only like turn-based dungeon crawlers

>>713440571
>dungeon crawler bad
>dungeon crawler, japan le good

this board is embarrassing lmao

The guy on the left has a tranny flag headband kek

>>713437232 (OP)
nothing since has quite come close to the run New World Computing had with M&M 4-8
most other dungeon crawler games are too constrained, take too much time slowly moving from place to place, or just don't hit the right fantasy

>>713444264
For Blood & Honor would've been peak but they replaced all the actors with really crappy 3D models
also game was oddly short

>>713437232 (OP)
As much as I love RPGs, I can only tolerate so much grinding, grid mazes and rando.mm encounters.

>>713437232 (OP)
M&M is not a dungeon crawler, retard
https://youtu.be/Pfr3I_N5cMw?t=18557

>>713442453
The recent remake of the first Wizardry is quite good, and very faithful.
Story of Llygalmyn is another good entry point for 1, 2, and 3 with the patch.

>>713444721
it's a dungeon'em'up

>>713437232 (OP)
I liked 3: Legend of Grimrock (1 and 2), Pathways into Darkness and Bunny Black.
I tried might and magic but didn't find it that fun.

>>713444162
Not everybody here hates dungeon crawlers you invented this shit out of thin air. The bigger problem is all this board can talk about are fucking coomer bait, e-celebs and FOTM garbage.

This is one of those genres much like others such as classic jrpgs that just feel dated and obsolete.

Some old games age gracefully (jagged alliance, xcom) and may be even better to play today than they even were back then because of how shit everything new is but others like classic dungeon crawlers just feel simplistic and lacking depth. They were the mobas of their time

>>713437232 (OP)
>dungeon crawlers thread
Oh nice, I need help finding an old one.
It looked like a M&M, but I'm pretty sure it was a bootleg, not an actual M&M.
Was kinda late in that era (on CD) and I *think* the enemies were full 3D.

Can't remember much specific outside of:
>the mage class being able to evolve into Warlock (was the first time I encountered that word so it stuck)
>the first dungeon/mine/tomb having an NPC (a dwarf/kobold/gnome thing) with an extremely annoying voice constantly asking if you had found any rats because he wanted to make a rat pie.

I could barely read english back then so I have no idea what the name was.

>>713437232 (OP)
Dungeon Crawler as its own concept is obselete with "modern" RPGs and 3D graphics.

easy game for babies

>>713437232 (OP)
Recommend me a dungeon crawler.

>>713447034
>looked up how to teleport to the hidden area and grabbed the 300 stat boosts
You didn't beat the game

Anyone played Grimoire?

>>713447209
Kowloon: High-school chronicle.

>>713447209
The Yendorian Tales - Chapter 2

>>713447209
SMT Strange Journey Redux
SMT Soul Hacker DS
SMT 1 and 2
Wizardry 8
Gridlock series

>>713447365
>Gridlock
Grimrock. Fuck auto correct

>>713447285
He has.

>>713444162
Western developers stopped making as many dungeon crawlers after a certain point, and Japanese RPG series tend to be inspired by and successors to the older western dungeon crawlers.
So there's at least half a recency element involved.

>>713447285
That's one sultry unicorn.

>>713447285
Can you fuck that unicorn?

I've been playing the FUCK out of M&M6 lately thoughbeit, I'd post a screenshot if I was at home

>>713443735
Gothmog is literally just a tracing of Werdna from Wizardry 4's art

the idea of a first person game where you actually control multiple people is just filthy to me
same reason that notch game is looking to be a flop

>>713437878
have fun with your archaic hundred year old games, old man.

>>713447365
>Redux
Cringe!

>>713447670
Why did the dev went insane anyways? Did the rpgcodex fuck him up that much

>>713447912
I will.

>>713437232 (OP)
I love mm6 but mm7 feels like it expects me to powergame for 2 hours before actually starting the barrowdowns
t. Zoom

it's an obsolete genre that exists solely due to boardgaming convenience (square grid makes designing levels and rules easier) and hardware limitations (excuse for constricted areas and short draw distance)

>>713447212
That wouldn't help past mid-game. The difference between naturally attainable 100 and 300 in all stats is negligible because stats have semilogaritmic scaling. Guess again.

>>713448151
>square say turn base is obsolete
>Altus made trillions of dollar and won rpg reward
> French made 10/10 turn base
> faggots circlejerk Deltarune ch3 and 4
Lol. Lmao. Nothing obsolete

>>713448464
Square has like 5 turn-based franchises. You just have autism and don't care about any game that isn't named Final Fantasy for some reason.

>>713448821
>Square has like 5 turn-based franchises
...which further demonstrates why they're retarded for saying that?

>>713449358
the voices in your head are retarded, yes

>>713449358
>they
Yoshi-P's pronouns are he/him.

>>713447670
sapes won't get it

>>713447285

>>713440043
Love that game

>>713437232 (OP)
You've posted the best one though. Most of them have those fucking RANDOM ENCOUNTERS, like Wizardry. Man, fuck Wizardry. I wanted to love it, but those fucking auto-leveled encounters, man. Shit's fucked.

>>713444030
I like the Etrian Odyssey series, the entries up to 3 moreso.

>>713450392
Non-random encounters:
>enter room
>enemies are there
Random encounters:
>enter room
>enemies are there
What is the difference?

>>713450695
For example, in Wizardry 8 they constantly interrupt your pace and even stalk after you across the map. I remember it being crazy annoying.

I remember I once tried to play Might and Magic 1. I didn't realize that you were supposed to select spells using numkey sequences so I kept casting a useless spell in battle and forgot to equip all of my characters with armor and weapons because I didn't know what key to press to equip.

>>713450539
>>713444030
I played some EO like 15 years ago, but only played 1 from the collection recently. I liked it outside of the repetitiveness and how playing around with classes and party composition wasn't incentivized because of how long leveling took. Also the end game was just tedious bullshit and I hate simon says bosses. Will I like 2 and 3? I've heard 2 can suck but 3 apparently is when the series got really good.

>>713450695
you can savescum around the latter

>>713447285
>Agatha
>they
ywnabaw

>>713437232 (OP)
One of my favorite parts of MM6 was the exploration.
I really like how the maps smoothly flow together.
MM7 just wasn't the same for some reason.

>>713451836
>MM7 just wasn't the same for some reason.
because of some players from MM6 accidentally veering into C3 or B2 way earlier than they were supposed to, NWC added a ton of geographical walls in MM7 to make sure you stayed "on track"
MM7 also gated a lot of content behind the heaven/hell choice, which further shrank the overworld
from Harmondale you have all of 3 paths out

>>713437232 (OP)
I wish Ubishit didn't have a deathgrip on the Might & Magic IP. I fear they're gonna take it to their grave with them.

>>713437232 (OP)
neo-nu-/v/ plays games for political reasons or to masturbate and real videogames are lacking in those regards

>>713453389
>not furiously masturbating to the titty sprites of the occasional slutty monster
Couldn’t be me.

>>713444721
Yes, yes (you) are.

>>713453389
a real game has good gameplay and designs so good you can fap to them.

>>713437569
Fuck you, that place gives me headaches.

>>713447209
Lands of Lore, still the best.

Post your favourite dungeon themes
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6M3NVS6N_hg

>>713455481
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-QE7hTQFKM

>>713442453
For Might and Magic - it depends how tough you are, how deeply you want to be invested.
Noob: M&M 6-7-8
Intermediate: M&M 4+5 (yes, this is fusion of two games, you can look up a guide on how to fuse), then M&M 3
Pro: M&M 1-2

Wizardry games are too hardcore and too "le clunky" even for old gamer like me. Enjoy battling a single rat for 10 minutes (miss-miss-miss) then succumb your entire party to unlucky critical? That's your game then.

what game should i play?

>>713451236
I think you'll like 3 more, it offers a lot of customization for classes due to subclasses and offers ways to passively or more quickly level characters.
2 is closer to the first game, with some improvements and some overcorrections from the first game. I found the post game levels to be significantly easier than the first game and beat each of the final boss on my first attempt.
One of the things the first two games have over the latter entries, in my opinion, is atmosphere and weight to what story is offered. In 5, for example, it's pretty hard to take the labyrinth seriously as a threat when you have the innkeeper just hanging around having a picnic on floor 5 or the shopkeeper solo running the second stratum. With all the quirky explorers in the tavern/labyrinth, warping directly to any floor, and the general lack of difficulty processing, I had a hard time buying into the idea that any other explorers were able to get past the second or third stratum.
The first games presented it as a legitimately dangerous place that people risked their lives to conquer. Dialogue was scarce, but well presented. Paired with the comparatively higher difficulty of those first games, I believed it.

>>713456965
>Noob: M&M 6-7-8
>Intermediate: M&M 4+5 (yes, this is fusion of two games, you can look up a guide on how to fuse), then M&M 3
>Pro: M&M 1-2
Dante Must Die: M&M 9

>>713458509
M&M 9 is easy modo it just kinda sucks

>>713449443
literally all you have to do is google "yoshi p turn based"

>>713451836
>A1
As soon as I opened this image, I heard as clear as though it were spoken
TAKUH MEEE
PLEASE TAKE MEH-HEEEEE
TAKE ME WHEYAH DA
SWEET WATUH FLOOOOWWWWSSSSS
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CIYAkuX1Cj8

>>713456965
>You have made the next level!
>You lose STR!
>You lose IQ!
>You lose PIETY!
>You lose VIT!
>Lou lose AGI!
>You lose LUCK!
>You gain 1 HP!
Wizardry is something so great.

>>713458608
>kinda sucks
Two thirds of the game didn't make it in.

>>713437232 (OP)
where are the new releases?

aight /v/ recommend me some dungeon crawlers
Ive tried wizardry 8, some might and magic games, I think I played smt 1 on ps1 and tried nocturne on ps2
didnt really land for me

>>713450902
That’s the issue with old rpgs, it’s not the difficulty but the interface and controls.

Why would anyone subject themselves to dungeon crawler gameplay in 2025

>>713460589
Because I want to run a squad of custom made characters kicking ass and killing shit.
No interpersonal drama "story" bullshit, any plot comes from outside, my team of assholes solving issues and saving the world.
One solo hero character isn't enough; I want a team that I assembled. Even better, I want a team that can take a load off at the local bar while I recruit some other dudes who are better suited for the next job.

>>713460589
it's fun

>>713460589
because everything else sucks ballsacks

>>713457360
I'm more or less checked out on the story because I don't care for fantasy that's really post apocalypse modern world. Mechanically 3 sounds better. Are encounters on each floor more varied? I got bored of fighting the same 3 or 4 groups on each floor because I knew how to deal with them and then it became repetitive.

>>713455481
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wd5UCk518JY

>>713460589
Nice loaded question.

>>713437232 (OP)
I've never even played one like those honestly, mostly just the first person turn based dungeon crawlers. I haven't ever seen a real time/action kinda dungeon crawler with a setting that I'm interested because they all seem to be that same sort of fantasy style.

>>713447830
can't go wrong with a mystery nigga in robes

>>713437232 (OP)
I genuinely mist might and magic. X legacy was fine but the slightly janky free roam of the previous games was something else entirely.

>>713461959
To an extent, at least from what I remember. In 3 you can encounter different enemies depending on how deep you are into a floor, preventing you from getting too complacent as you start filling out a floor map. I don't know if that'd be enough to resolve your concern altogether, though.

>>713437492
>>713437878
I hope you realize this is a copy-pasted OP that's been posted dozens of times and you don't actually have to pretend to answer the question to bump the thread

I so much wanted to like M&M but I just can't get into blobbers for whatever reason. M&M VI is probably the one game above all others that I download every once in a while and think 'this time I'll like it' but I never do

>>713465771
maybe try a square grid blobber instead of free roaming one?

>>713466320
I have actually, and I do prefer them. M&M VI just looks so neat

>>713455339
Good serie in general, though protagonist of the last one is a dick.

>>713437232 (OP)
Do you guys know any games that play like MM6? I don't like those games where you move on a grid.

>a mobile gacha game is unironically the best dungeon crawler ever made
How does this make you feel?

>>713468973
Neither of them are close to release yet, but they had Next Fest demos (still available) that were pretty neat.
Wardens of Chaos is more faithful to the design of the free movement M&M games.
Titans of the Past is more of a M&M+HOMM fusion with town development and curated stage-based environments you have to clear, and does a Superhot thing of pausing when you're stationary. It also uses generic assets and dumped a shitload of AI portraits into its character portrait system, but it's designed for you to be able to drag and drop your own images in-game.

>>713469770
Wizardry can't stop winning.
I miss Wizardry Online

>>713470074
>/v/ tells me wizardry online is gonna be sick
>download it
>roll up character, enter town
>too scared to go into dungeon because I know the game has open PvP
>never play again
While I have no evidence to support this claim, I feel strongly that I missed out on something magical.

>>713469770
I feel like someone is trying to con me into playing a shitty gacha

>>713469974
Neat.

>>713470952
The game is pretty good as a dungeon crawler but the daily threadmill will make you want to kill yourself. I basically haven't touched it in a month due to burnout.

>>713470329
The PvP was neat but also rare because most people were too busy not getting murdered by super monsters that spawned randomly in the dungeons. Also the Crime system was genuinely punishing so few if any people risked PvP as being marked a Criminal effectively led to a fate worse than the game's permadeath.

Lawful players could gang up on Red Criminals and continuously curbstomp them, and guard NPCs in town would hunt criminals down, criminals either had to hide out and sneak around or just log out for several real time days to wait out their criminal stain.
Criminals could also be sent to a special Jail dungeon where all the criminal players could basically fuck one another over while attempting to escape. Otherwise they had to pay a huge fine relative to twice the bounties they've accumulated if they wanted to get out legitimately.

I'm working on an arcade-style dungeon crawler that has soft and hard time limits (soft: timer that ticks down, spurring you on to make a move or take an action/ticks down the hard timer if let to run to 0. hard: action counter that depletes each step on the map or turn taken in battle).
The combat is deterministic, zero RNG, and revolves around 1v1 combat with a party of 4 that you can cycle between.
The inspiration is Crazy Taxi and the point is to try and find battles and beat them quickly to stockpile additional step counter to enable more exploration and greater scoring.

>>713442183
Kek

>>713468973
https://store.steampowered.com/app/2745660/Monsters_of_Mican/
free 3D movement, very bizarre assets but it's decent fun

>>713471583
Will the dungeons be Wizardry bullshit mazes, or something more straightforward?
In either case, will retreading old ground have cushioned hard time loss compared to encroaching on new ground, just in case you have to double back?
Will the soft "Shot Clock" pause when you're in menus/sifting through inventory?
Is it a nonstop dungeon delve, or can you retreat to a town to reset?

>>713462719
None of them are fantasy. In Wizardry and M&M you are killing monsters with laser pistols and blasting off in your ancient egyptian spaceship.

>>713472563
>bullshit mazes
They will generally have a clear theme, but will be sized 10x10 and 15x15 to encourage clearing them quickly and moving to the next level. Bonus points are awarded for step counter remaining.
>retreading previous ground penalized
You merely waste steps instead of accruing points for landing on new tiles. There are score bonuses for completing the whole map on any given floor as well, and I'm also thinking about a combo meter for efficiently stepping on consecutive uncleared tiles/well-played turns in battle (e.g. nullifying damage, using "super effective" attacks, and so forth) but I'm not quite to the depths of scoring details yet.
>shot clock pausing for inventory
No. You get your shit done within the time allotted or you pay the price in step counter. The plan is however to try and integrate some of the menu functions into the rest of play, like offering a quick-equip to a party member when gear is discovered.
>nonstop dungeon dive
You play until you get a game over or clear the final floor. No town breaks. You can credit feed to see the end of the game if you want, but this resets your score to 0 and marks that run with CREDIT FEEDER as well while setting you back to the start of the floor where you died.

>>713472576
Sounds like fantasy to me

>>713437232 (OP)
because they're limited, boring and worthless.

>>713444162
No, more
>Dungeon Crawlers good, only japan makes them now

>>713471181
This. I gave up even though they didn't entirely fuck up the gameplay to make it a gacha.