What can save RTS?
What can teach people the necessary skills for them?

I'm just not interested in practicing nor gook clicking at a rapid rate to "save" your genre. It's your responsibility to appeal to a critical mass, not mine.

>>713818468 (OP)
buy out twitch and close it down

>>713818468 (OP)
>What can save RTS?
stop caring about "RTS fans", and just make an interesting game.
"RTS fans" are as poisonous to the genre as "MMO fans" are to MMOs.

I watch tournaments but I've never played online.

>>713818756
They're so fun to watch
Been watching some AoE4 and BAR matches in the background for awhile, they're good shows

>>713818468 (OP)
focus on singleplayer, comfiness interesting/challenging campaigns and fun AI opponents
"competitive gaming" should be a complete after thought.

>>713818995
My model for this would be something like Stronghold, especially Crusader.

>>713819091
>My model for this would be something like Stronghold
yes
>especially Crusader
no

How can anyone NOT enjoy RTS gameplay? it's got everything
It's well paced, it's comfy, it's got heart pumping points, it's got casual modes, it's got show and spectacle, it's got interactivity, it's got team matches, strategy and action all together into one, interesting settings and campaigns and puzzle scenarios, and compatitive scenes

It's everything into one single package

>>713818468 (OP)
Casualization.
Broken Arrow is doing a good job.

>>713818540
>I don't want to put in any effort
>I don't want to learn
>I just want to turn off my brain and have the game tell me I won
sounds like farmville is more your speed, nonny

>>713818468 (OP)
RTS basically has the Halo problem.

Halo thrived for being the first FPS with online multiplayer and elaborate combined arms setpieces but the second Call of Duty ditched the WW2 setting and developed an innovative multiplayer metaprogression system, Halo rapidly lost ground even on its home turf, the 360.
Since 2014, or arguably 2013, the FPS genre has thrived from a renaissance coordinated around "boomer shooters" or basically "remember what FPS was like before Halo."
Halo is too slow and mechanically shallow to compete in that space.
But Halo also lacks the speed and metaprogression of COD or the emergent systems and constant updates of Fortnite.
So what hope does Halo have to compete in that space? Nothing besides built-in good will from the 2000s.

RTS has the same problem. It stagnated too much and let other games eat its lunch. If you wanted fast-paced big plays, people moved towards the MOBA genre. You wanted to deliberative tactical depth instead of Korean carpal tunnel autism you picked 4X/grand strategy.
Like other anons mentioned, single player campaign focus is probably the best bet. The game itself is just okay but I think They Are Billions gets at the most basic appeal of RTS which is seeing a huge ass army fight another huge ass army without abstraction. Maybe kind of moving towards a "tower defense" focus, building up a base and a shitload of units to withstand a giant siege, or playing it from the opposite angle, would be good territory to explore.

>>713818468 (OP)
I prefer strategy RPGs

>>713820014
First console FPS, I mean. Obviously Halo's not the first online multiplayer FPS

just make kino campaigns like Company of Heroes 1

>>713819838
going to not play your genre 10x harder, have fun crying about it dying lmao, you dont see fans of other genres crying nearly as much on here, this is why people enjoy your suffering rtstroons

people dont want to play competitive multiplayer. they want to play fun campaigns.

>>713818468 (OP)
Same exact problem shmups have, they require the play not to be a total drooling moran like >>713818540 . Unlike every modern game that finishes itself you actually have to learn.
RTS and shmups failing are entirely the fault of the consumer. You have a perfect canvas for hectic and deep gameplay but the average gamer wants to be medicated into a zombie like state by thin porridge 600 hour long open world checklists

>>713821196
yeah its the consumers fault lmao, that marketing strategy will go over great, your genre lost btw

>>713821196
I love RTS, they are in fact what keep me from depression
They make my mind active and keep me from falling into overthinking or anxiety. It's the opposite of what people describe as stressing.

>>713819091
I dropped crusader because the 2nd mission rushes you with 30 torch maniacs. Then I tried Stronghold and it was a completely sane doable challenge.
Wtf is wrong with Crusader? Thats not how you make a campaign

>>713818468 (OP)
Hamburger Hepler was right about everything. RTS need "Skip gameplay" button so we can watch more epic armies clashing.

Additionally, more BIPoC and gender minorities representation. RTS are soooooooo behind, the furthest they've gotten is putting some women on the battlefield as medics...

>>713820014
Strangely, I think the solution for Halo is actually similar to RTS, and that's appealing to the casual market. I would argue Halo's simplicity is its best strength. It'll never be be as fast paced or high skill as Quake, but most players don't want that barrier of entry. Likewise the metaprogression and ELO rankings on a lot of nodern FPS games can be draining, and fun is often axed in favor of competitive balance. Meanwhile, Classic Halo is a series with a rather low barrier of entry. The Assault Rifle/Melee combo, well not the most efficient, works reliably even with bad players, and if they get lucky they might get a power weapon or a vehicle to atleast feel like they're having fun. Plus, even if you get sick of slayer, there's a lot of alternate gamemodes to play around in.
Really, Halo is at its best as a party game. Be it cooping the campaign with your bro, or dicking around in forge world with your friends. And Halo wasn't losing popularity until it quit focusing on that and started chasing the trends from other series.

RTS were only good on LAN

>>713818468 (OP)
RTS is not fun to play because you're either stuck playing against sweaty 30+ year old losers that failed at life or braindead AI

>>713821529
wasnt there an upcoming RTS which almost entirely automated the macro and it is just fighting all the time? I cant remember, I know its not Stormgate

>>713821665
post elo

I exclusively play with friends only. We like to build our empires up then fight each other instead of being faggots trying to end the game quickly as possible. Its like were having sex and milking it for all its worth instead of busting a nut on the 1st stroke.

>>713819838
I don't want to put in any effort
I don't want to learn
I just want to turn off my brain and have the game tell me I won
Your move, dev. Cater to me, or else

>>713821710
post life accomplishments lol

>>713821686
Mechabellum? It's an autobattler but yeah

>>713818468 (OP)
singe player campaign with multiple factions
hammy cutscenes
varied mission types (think blizzard games)
overworld map with regional decisions (Dawn of War Dark Crusade/Soulstorm/Rise of Nations)
no multiplayer
unit designer and painter (Warzone 2100, Earth 2160 series)

>>713821774
rtsissies btfo lmao

>>713821686
That's still toxic masculine. Where are the tests of emotional skill?

>>713818468 (OP)
>What can save RTS?
nothing, aoe2de is already saving it
>What can teach people the necessary skills for them?
can't teach retards anything if they don't want to be teached

>>713821686
This one?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxOU2x6FQzo

>>713821843
Back to .reddit. Normiegro

>>713821686
It's called League of Legends, maybe you've heard of it

The only thing that will save rts is a rebuild of Supreme Commander FA in a multithreaded executable.

450eloKING here
Everyone who has more than 600 is trans btw

>>713821908
Yes. But also non competitive multiplayer with custom game modes like Warcraft 3.
And the units have to look cool, unlike everything we’ve been getting lately.
And the story has to draw you in. It doesn’t have to be deep or take itself too serious but it has to be captivating, like Warcraft or even dawn of war.

>>713818468 (OP)
RTS are doing fine, we trimmed all the retards and we're now lean and mean again.

>>713822226
i accept your concession, rtses lost btw, tranny dead genre

>>713818468 (OP)
>What can save RTS?
Kill all vets and let new players prosper

>>713821450
stronghold campaign missions are kinda like puzzles that often require very specific strats to complete. I don't remember crusader's campaign but I'm sure there's a catch to that mission too like building a wall early in a certain spot or something.

>>713822338
>>713819208
close enough?

>What can save RTS?
Having an APM over 10 permanently bans you from the multiplayer

>>713821665
Such a convenient excuse that shitters love to use
>You can't play because EVERYBODY is a sweaty Korean no life tryhard and I just wanna have fuuuuuun
Basically you're shit and unwilling to improve, instead assigning everyone that wins against you a tryhard so you ego can survive.

>>713824414
>newbies getting paired with 10+ year old veterans is totally fair, you will totally be as good as them after a few months, trust me bro

>>713821710
500

>>713822350
true dude
*makes no military until castle starts pumping elite teutonic knights*

>>713821665
This doesn't apply to AOE2 btw because of matchmaking system

Explain how you don't need APM in RTS games.

>>713825037
Daut has 45 APM and has been top 5. Surely you can manage 45 APM?

>dude frantically clicking the same attack command 50 times per second
>dude drag selecting his units 20 times
>dude issuing the same move order 120 times per second but each click is a pixel to the right
those are the guys who think high APM alone makes you win when in fact it's autistic build order memorization just like in chess

>>713824723
Things that never ever ever happened

>>713825037
Knowledge and strategy>>>>>>panic clicking

>>713825037
spam clicking the same pixel of ground 100 times as second isn't going to make your army get there any faster or make your workers more efficient, nor will mashing the hotkey to make a marine when you have 5 minerals going to produce it any earlier

>in the gear with the rear!

>>713825037
IIRC a bunch of the AoE2 boomers have remarkably low APM and they've still dominated the scene for years, Grubby did some challenge videos where he arbitrarily limited his APM beneath a certain amount to prove that you don't need high APM to win in WC3.

>>713818468 (OP)
>real time strategy that doesn't require reaction speed

>play RTS games with my two friends
>we just go in a 3v3 vs AI, ramping up the difficulty each time we win
>looking forwards to doing our gay shit in Tempest Rising
>doesn't support 8 players
>doesn't even support 6 players
What the fuck?
8 has been the standard as far back as the 90s

>>713818468 (OP)
There were more images like the Goth Game Plan one, does anyone have them?

>>713825318
45 APM is 30 more APM than I'm able to pull.

>>713818468 (OP)
>What can save RTS?
Fun singleplayer campaigns
Fun skirmish mode with AI opponents that are not braindead or literally cheating
Cool units across different factions that make you want to play the game again just to see those units in action
Isometric graphics that look like prerendered 90s games
Complete abandonment of the MOBA genre conventions
Complete abandonment of the esports audience

>>713828225
check this out
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mpIdHYcVUlM

>>713828548
stop smoking weed

>>713818468 (OP)
RTS is one of those genres that are more fun to watch than play
I only played the campaign or vs AI in all RTS I played, but still watched some pro matches with the in-game replays or early youtube, even used some build orders vs the AI
But it's not something most people really want to dedicate a lot of effort to

Do RTS even need saving? How big are these games' communities today compared to say 2008?
What is considered a "dead game" to you guys?
As someone who plays a niche genre (text-based browser MMOs) I feel happy with 500 players, but it seens modern gamers think anything less than 20k monthly players is dead

>>713818468 (OP)
Competitively? I'm honestly not sure. Feels like it'll always be a niche genre.
Casually? Just a good campaign/skirmish modes with bots. I still play AoEII/AoM and WC3 to this day.
I also really enjoy the FMVs for C&C. The stories are cheesy but very memorable.

>>713818468 (OP)
RTS doesnt need saving. it's in a nice stable spot right now.
teaching the skills for RTS only comes from actually playing the game which is tough since players from other genres can't transfer too many skills over to RTS.
what aoe2 needs to do is buff handcannoneers.

Just play the original empire earth a million times. That's what I do.

>>713828656
>Complete abandonment of the MOBA genre conventions
Completely wrong. (in particular, using that awful term. Call of Duty is a "MOBA")
Casualization is the future.

>>713820014
ahh the moba fag
do you make elaborate posts now so people don't immediately ignore you.
Moba gameplay has zero in common with RTS, also moba is the most dead genre

>>713829934
the fuck are you talking about?

>>713821450
Most crusader missions give you a ton of resources at the start and everything you can build is constructed instantly - so the ideal way is to rush certain units in the first 4 minutes and cripple the enemy. This is enticing to some types of RTS players, but if you're the "turtle and build up slowly" player I think you'll hate crusader's campaign

When will the games industry realize that Blizzard and all its associates games are a curse upon them
I swear people keep copying the worst fucking ideas possible because a Blizzard game had them before

>>713821686
Battle Aces, Heart of Muriet, probably a couple more.

>>713830232
MOBAs have the good parts of RTS without the bad parts. MOBAs won. You lost.

>>713830492
all Moba has is top down camera and click controls. its literally arena action rpg.
Your genre is dead, meanwhile RTS has dozens of new title in the pipeline and many more classics people can look back to.
Moba has nothing once its only two games servers are turned off.

I think people stop playing these games because the communities aren't big enough to sustain a large base of casual or beginner players.
The solution to this is the introduction of AIs that are actually capable of playing the game, rather than just cheating and giving pre-programmed answers.
AIs that behave like humans will be the salvation of these fucking games.

It requires too much time to learn. Once you become skilled in one, it's almost impossible to devote the same amount of time to play something else in the genre because of the initial friction and the suck that comes with it. That's why people are still obsessed with their AoE2 or Starcraft or whatever.

>Strategy RPGS rose from obscurity into becoming arguably the most mainstream form of /vst/
>MOBAS had their flash in the pan but are still thriving off thirdies
>4X is alive and well, and will always be relevant as long as Civ pumps out their latest slop
>even grand strategy, while niche, has a strong following of dedicated autists.
>RTS never bounced back from it's fall in the 2010s.
What gives? Does whatever Youtuber you're shilling even address why it fell in the first place?

>>713830953
>meanwhile RTS has dozens of new title in the pipeline
wow more flops on the floor
>and many more classics people can look back to
exactly, an outdated genre

>>713831175
>The solution to this is the introduction of AIs that are actually capable of playing the game
How would that help in being targets of compstomps? Putting up actual resistance is the last thing the average RTS enjoyer wants from their victims.

Is it dead if you can play aom/aoe2 remakes anytime you want?

>>713832069
>more flops
don't care, I have fun playing some of them.
I hope you enjoy your latest MOBA

>>713832827
>latest MOBA (here's that word again)
Why would I do that when the only game that matters is still getting updates?

>>713825318
Is that consistent for most of the game? Once you start building a ton, needing to navigate your town to build/hotkey troops, make upgrades, and so on piles on the actions quickly macro wise.

>>713834742
I believe that is the overall game average, not peak, yes. Obviously many APMs are inflated by people spam clicking during the start when nothing is going on, but AoE2 is unironically a macro game rather than a micro game outside rare instances and you can absolutely beat a micro focused player through better macro.

>>713818468 (OP)
What would save RTS is that the second you memorize the spread sheet you die, then 1k elo becomes fun for casuals again instead of this tryhard hera vipur spreadsheet every game

>>713819815
Single packages went out of fashion in favor of more specialized subgenres.
Instead of playing a jack-of-all-trades that only partially appeals to you, you get something that scratches a very particular itch and does it well. You get games that are casual and relaxing, or with frustrating ball-breaking difficulty, or with extensive sim elements, or randomized replay value, or whatever. RTS, on the other hand, is very good at filtering people. Each comes with a feature you can't stand, or a mechanic you just can't get good at, and now that players have many choices to pick from, they don't have to put up with stuff they'd rather avoid.

>>713820023
I play both, I have a respectable elo but I get tired of playing tryhard all the time so I play slow paced turn based shit when I am not feeling it

>>713821686
I think you are talking about battle aces

>>713821994
>can't teach retards anything if they don't want to be teached
There is art of war in game so retards don't have excuses anymore for sucking

>>713819838
Can you logically explain why would anyone bother with putting in effort and learning your shit, if your game is fundamentally not rewarding?

>>713825318
Daut doesn't focus on army so he doesn't need high APM, the dominant players of the scene, Hera, Vipur and Liereyy all have monster APM and Hera is literally untouchable

>>713828548
Don't worry you might show up in a low elo legends video one day

To save RTS, we need to destroy ableism.

>>713832040
I'm not surprised they're not popular these days, 1v1 RTS is basically a harder, more drawn out fighting game (with incomplete information to boot) where matches can last in the order of half an hour and losses feel harsh because a) you often don't feel the consequences of your fuckups for minutes at a time, leading to confusion over what deficiency caused your loss (and for neurotic individuals believing there was nothing you could have done) and b) you just spent half an hour getting your ass kicked with no one else to blame.

>>713837418
Never had a multiple hours long match before?

>>713837418
Co-op has become more popular, while 1v1 has gotten less so
Both in RTS specifically, but also in gaming as a whole.
A great campaign focused RTS with full campaign co-op is probably going to be the next big thing in the space. Every dev that chases starcrafts longevity is doing it wrong.

>>713837763
Starcraft 2 has great co-op (not campaign) but everyone sees that and sees it isn't making money and scraps the idea

>>713837616
extreme outliers

>>713818468 (OP)
>please, I want to contaminate RTS!
no, thank you

Obligatory.

>>713829586
Ok but wtf is wrong with hand canonneers?

>>713839618
they need to be better. i'd like a slight cost reduction, slight training speed reduction, or something else.

>>713838562
Nobody says any of those except the first two though.

>>713839920
play hindustanis

will they re-enable autoqueue on the aom base game, now that it's enabled in the expansion?

>>713840098
i dont play nonyuro civs.

>>713838562
What's wrong with not being interested in MP?

The best singleplayer RTS missions are defense missions. Bonus points if you can go big dick and use your spare capacity to cheekily go out and kill a bunch of shit on top of keeping your base safe.

>>713840225
>I want to play Chess
>But only in singleplayer

>>713840676
Chess is different for some reason. It's the only game I enjoy playing with another person.

>>713840676
>Why do single player games exist?
>Why isn't every game a tryhard competitive esport?
>Why doesn't anyone want to play with me?

>>713818468 (OP)
By going back to basics, perhaps: slightly slower pace and big single player campaigns with cool plot -- now with better Grafix. The genre was called derisively as "action clicker" where I'm from (colloquially and in gaming magazines) way before the Gook StarCraft shit and APM niggery. You're not gonna attract customers with that shit.
RTS games have the same problem as fighting games. But at least fighters have cool and sexy characters, and the 1 on 1 asswhupping aspect is easier to grasp on a surface level.

>>713840676
>Chess
doesn't have singleplayer
>rts 'n videogames
do have singleplayer

>>713840986
>A system designed to be played with people
>Insist in imaginary anxiety to avoid it

They're hard to play well and they're functionally PC only, same reason arena shooters dies.

>>713838562
literally me lol

If RTS in the past were designed around single player only can someone explain to me why was this included?

>Save
???
We live in the golden age of RTS.

Command: Modern Operations
Broken Arrow
Sea Power
WARNO

>>713836143
Vipah is very good at micro, particularly trapping units with gates yes, but Hera is dominant because he practices the most and focuses on perfect macro and eco raiding, he is not on top due to micro alone.

>>713839618
Nothing. They fulfill their niche perfectly.

>>713836143
Viper in particular got exposed as a braindead gookclicker in grubby's WC3 tournament where he lost to variety streamers with half his apm

>>713840225
nothing but it is like saying that you want a Souls game with narrative only mode

>>713842775
I don't think that's very fair, he also beat the ultimate winner in the first round.

>>713842775
>meanwhile he wussed out before it started
https://x.com/T90Official/status/1908170103541071872
I still love the feller but KWAB

>>713842632
If Hera had half the APM he wouldn't be able to macro and micro at the same time

>>713843170
Hera's APM is nothing special, most high level pros have similar. And you don't need top level pro APM to play multiplayer.

>>713825037
Viper got almost 1700 elo playing with a program that limited his APM to 60

>>713843170
>>713842775
i don't believe any of you are competing against these players

>>713818468 (OP)
Short tutorials that don't over explain and a fun solo and co-op campaign. Nobody that wants to have fun in an RTS gives a shit about PVP.

>>713838562
This is why Mechabellum is so genius. It's an auto battler dressed up like an RTS, and auto battlers are what people in that pic want but don't know the word for.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2anBlQVSsro

>>713844754
too bad there's such a stigma against autobattlers. I have seen plenty of people describing they want exactly that and then they turn their nose up at it.

>>713844997
>Opinionated people that don't know what they want refuse to accept what they asked for

>>713844997
>>713844754
>A game
>But you don't play it

>>713830403
You don't even need to cheese by rushing. All missions are totally doable because you have enough money to buy bows/crossbows from market and defend against up to 7 ai with fuck you money at the same time. In harder missions you have to be a little smarter with your tower and wall placements also use shields to protect archers.
After early game rushes your eco will catch up and then you just spam catapults, horse archers: Utterly destroying their castles and archers and finish off ai lord with either macemen or assassins.
Stronghold Crusader is not a hard game, it's a puzzle game like usual. The only challenge is in later missions when your early game money is low and have to be strategic with your tower defense to survive initial assault.

No other RTS came close to Warcraft with the sheer variety of maps and game modes
AoE2 is just spreadsheet with nice sprites (and romans for some reason)

>>713818468 (OP)
Make it single player and change it to RTwPS instead, so it stops being about retarded gook clicking.

>>713845324
Yes, that's what RTS enjoyers like the most. No APM gookclick cancer.

>>713821535
How would you party game the RTS though? league's ARAM already covers a decent amount of that imo.

>>713848367
It actually always was, most people statistically play campaign, co-op versus AI or custom games.

>>713848187
co-op

>>713818468 (OP)
'minder that over 90% of RTS players don't EVER touch multiplayer, and less than 10% of multiplayer games are PvP. Don't let /v/ sweatcucks speak for the fanbase just because they're more tryhard at pointless apm spam due to literal autism. THEY HAVE NO SAY IN THIS. They are the smallest niche of an already niche genre.

Multiplayer game design is anti-RTS. Developers purposefully avoid cool units, mechanics and campaigns which are the heart and soul of RTS for the sake of le balance. The delusional elitist comptards have been killing RTS for too long.

You may SEETHE, you may COPE, but RTS is a SINGLE PLAYER ONLY genre.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XehNK7UpZsc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKMrTgmivEk

>>713848865
India superpower by 2030!

>>713818468 (OP)
RTS only existed because the gaming industry was in a different state where you had passionate small studios and not corporations ruled by greed. The most advanced RTS games were ironically developed by those corporations during the transition to full corporate greed. Indies have no chance to one up them, it's quite literally over for good.

the problem with rts games is that they are too difficult for casuals to play well. the kind of person who plays strategy games feels like he is smarter than your average gamer and wants the game to reinforce that feeling. of course they aren't actually any smarter, so developers intentionally make the game stupid and exploitable so players can still feel like they are outsmarting it. this works well enough for single player experiences, but it falls apart when you bring multiplayer into the picture. even if the game has a ladder with matchmaking that will find you an opponent with equal skill level, low skill players get angry at being told that they're low skill players. it doesn't matter that they never have to fight the "sweatlords" or "gookclickers" that they hate, the fact that the game isn't fluffing their egos is unbearable to them. this is why you have so many complaints about apm and games not having "real strategy." people think that since they consider themselves to be strategic players, if they lose it must be because the game isn't strategic. the opponent only won because he was clicking faster. this type of player will never be happy unless the game protects them by not having any kind of competitive pvp content so they never have to face the fact that they suck.

>>713841896
Because it's a PC genre. Having a multiplayer component was customary since the 90's.

i wish i had more friends to play RTS, but my one irl friend became a normalfag and all 4chan anons i add stop playing or are normalfags with no spare time.

>>713850206
But this is different, because it clearly meant to have a competitive scene since its release. The game had ranking ladder and also tournaments with literally millions in prizepool (and those tournaments were dogshit because all games were bo1 and shared through recs)
MP current era equivalent of the game you posted would be BG3 which obviously it's not meant to be a competitive game

>>713818468 (OP)
Good single player campaigns.

>>713841896
>is le multiplayer game
>includes this

>>713848367
I love seeing PvP cope like this. It's not exclusive to RTS of course but they always seem to think that they're somehow the majority or the reason the game stays alive when in reality they're by every single verifiable metric the smaller group.
Given how competitive they tend to be though it's not exactly surprising that they're always the most narcassistic faggots around.

>>713844997
This has always been the case. People say they want chill gameplay and cool unit synergy, then recoil the moment something doesn’t require 300 APM and a master's in click speed. Autobattlers are just another casualty of gamer hypocrisy. Same thing happened with stuff like Majesty or even early Total War-barely interactive combat and people loved it until they started comparing it to StarCraft and suddenly declared it "not real gaming." These people don’t even know what they want, they just want to argue.

>>713818468 (OP)
I have been interested in AoE 2 and 4 but playing multiplayer terrifies me.

>>713841896
AoE2 is getting DLC to this day, all of it single player focused.

>>713818468 (OP)
>the legendary video that killed RTS boomer shitposters
I kneel

>>713818468 (OP)
People complain about gookclick, APM, etc. and it makes me feel weird because 99% of my time in Starcraft was spent on UMS maps and seeing what other people made

>What can save RTS?
Realizing that a strong single player campaign mode and a more casual online experience (AoE mosh pits, C&C super weapon spam, SC/WC2+3 mod lobbies) are far more important than listening to hardcore players ruining future games by trying to turn everything into esports out of the box. Every game that has gone against this fact has fizzled out within weeks.

>You don't need AP-ACK!
Look at this nigga going similar on score with his opponent at the start of the timestamp to casually surpass him by 10k in score in the spawn of one minute and a half just by the pure force of gookclicking
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/2497384916?t=03h15m38s
nice "strategy" games RT"S" are btw

>You don't need AP-ACK!
Yes you don't. The basic skill for playing RTS is multitasking. One you learn how to play the entire genre by playing it your APM will just increase naturally. It's a skill. Only in RTS shit threads you see normalfag redditsrs worshiping the idea of not learning how to play the game.

>>713857014
>confusing needs with wants
If you're in a good position in economy and unit makeup, you don't need gook reflexes. Shoo, ESL. Shoo.

>>713856786
>Special Forces
>DBZ All Sagas
>Bound
>EVOLVE
>Sunken D
>Tank D
>Helm's Deep
>Heaven's Last Stand
>Raccoon City
Man...

>nice "strategy" games RT"S
Oh and about that. You need to learn how to walk before you can run.

>>713818468 (OP)
If by save, you mean the multiplayer scene, there's nothing that can be done. The skill ceiling is too high for most people to ever be reached, so they're just going to get crushed five minutes into the game because an autistic person has already solved the order of operations, or some faggot sweat has read a build guide on a wiki. You may not like it, but if you expect people to stick with a game, they have to be able to win at least one of every three games they play or they'll fuck off and play something else.

>>713857437
>multiplayer
>skill ceiling is too high
Did you see the absolute state of low ELO fights in AoE2. The skill is an issue only in dead low player count games. Like in Wargame. You will be kicked because no one one to waste time playing with AI bot.

>>713857608
>dude everyone can attain high skill!
Curb your faith in people, most people playing RTS don't enter a match with a plan, they just want to build guys and attack-move to the enemy base.

>>713857798
>they just want to build guys and attack-move to the enemy base
literally me

>>713857798
If you still can play against similar shitters it's all that matter.

>>713818468 (OP)
the most popular rts games are all 20+ years old
rts is already dead, its only kept afloat by people reliving their nostalgia

>>713857798
Building guys and attack moving into the enemy base would actually be a huuuuuuuuuge improvement to noobs win rate AND their enjoyment. In reality noobs want to sit in their base and never ever leave and build forever and then seethe as soon as the enemy attacks them

>>713818468 (OP)
RTS and first-person grid-based dungeon crawlers are the only two genres where I can say I’m glad they are popular “enough” for the dedicated fans to keep getting new titles to try, yet I personally cannot find a single redeemable thing about them considering every component of what comprises their existence is done more effectively in other genres.

broken arrow is fun you're all just zoomer dogbrained retards

>>713858483
based

>>713858483
>mfw finally got my cheap WiC russian knockoff

if only I could daisy cutter or FAB clowns like in WiC I'd be sold shit was funny as hell.

I only play RTS for custom games and co-op vs AI

number 1 thing is a good attitude but that is harder and harder to find and not just in RTS's.

"Warcraft 3: Brought to you by Riot Games"
>Streamlined experience
>Champions play just like they do in LoL
>Base management is semi-automated with production buttons and timers always on screen, unit queuing that doesn't waste resources
>Units follow your Champion and you use the D and F keys to order them to stray away and attack (there are no control groups in this game)

>>713859386
Why not just play warcraft 3?
is /v/ so braindead they can't memorize creep routes for 4 different match ups for 12 different maps with their unique branches depending on enemy build and behavior? That's like only a few hundred unique situations. You'll git gud in less than 1000 ranked games and 100+ pro replays watched.

>>713859717
I've played Warcraft 3, and enjoy it, but my dream RTS is one made by Riot that plays just like LoL.Same engine, controls, and same game design philosophies

>>713848367
I can't handle how those retards just keep going like that. You'd think after the last 20 pvp focused RTS games flopped they'd finally start realizing something, but no shot. And the game devs are the exact same retards who can't wait to speedrun bankruptcy.

OKOK
RTS but Dungeon Crawler

>>713843156
>ikenai deka ep of aikatsu
holy based.

>>713859386
>the game plays itself
Fitting you'd use Judge Doom for this

>>713859717
See, here's the root of the problem. Is the game worth playing 100 games in hope it gets fun? Is it worth 10? I don't know. I never pick up a game thinking "I need to learn everything about it before I even start". And memorizing shit so you can do the same routine over and over but a bit faster sounds unnervingly close to speedrunning, and speedrunning is very gay, GDQ has shown us that.
In the case where questions are too easy the solution might not be to ask questions faster but to ask harder questions. This is basically what campaign people want, and this is basically what they never get. There is a mod for SC2 that lets you customize the mission difficulty with various buffs and nerfs to you and your enemy, and you can make the enemy so strong the mission becomes mathematically impossible to beat. Or is it? Why don't you try?

>moderate difficulty too easy
>hard difficulty too hard
what do

>>713864792
Bitch that the gente itself is flawed and that the developers are wrong and that you shouldn't have to get good and that everyone better than you is a tryhard the second you encounter an obstacle you can't beat while afk

>>713820014
i'd kill for a TAB 2 or even just dlc for the game
it has some big flaws but overall it's one of my top RTS games
feels like they didn't realize its potential and just abandoned it

>>713825037
>Explain how you don't need APM in RTS games.
In broodwar APM is everything. If you are under 150 APM in 1v1 against a pro, you will not win. Never played age of microslop online. Maybe its different.

>>713818468 (OP)
>What can save RTS?
a dead chicken cant find corn

>>713818468 (OP)
Just make a game that focuses on a singeplayer/co-op campaign experience like Starcraft II offered. Easy win, a mid-sized or larger indie team or a small proper studio could easily accomplish something like this and have a decent hit on their hands. For whatever reason though every studio that attempts to make an RTS goes for a multiplayer focus and its DOA. When will they learn?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6-ByOiRtNw

Been watching the BAR finals
This was fun

>>713841896
For me it's the history section that plays a theme every time you pick a faction to glance over

>>713841062
>back to basics
All anyone ever wanted from rts was to watch a shitload of dudes fight a battle that hinges on strategy. A shitload of dudes that needs to be cool, because wars are cool.
Total warhammer 3 is currently the biggest rts right now because it understands that is exactly the appeal of the genre.
Dawn of war 1 is bigger than dawn of war 2 because it is closer to the actual basic desire of the genre.

I think people need to stop thinking deeply about that shit and remember the reasons why people even thought rts was cool.

>>713865001
i said all that? damn

>DoW Demaster still MIA
What the fuck is taking them so long?

>>713834610
And would that game be League, or Dota? Choose your answer VERY carefully

>>713818468 (OP)
Are there any modern RTS games out there that people recommend?

>>713866572
>>713866061

>>713866572
Just play total warhammer 3, the only things "hot" right now are gay ass TA clones (that also have less players than the game mentioned)

>>713866614
Why would I play this when Supreme Commander exists?

>>713866685
Cause it mogs Supreme Commander apologists

>>713818468 (OP)
That video was total fucking bullshit.

>>713824414
Most people are not going to want to improve at something that isn't entertaining.

>>713819815
>le comfy
take your stupid reddit buzzword out of here

>>713866442
No, you asked "what do" and that's my advice

>>713859717
Because Warcraft 3 still has the same bullshit that makes me detest most of these games.

I played the Starcraft 2 campaigns and had a lot of fun. Then the custom game shitshow came to light and it gave me a bad taste and ladder is just nope so I quit. Came back a few years ago and played a ton of coop commander games. It was really fun but ultimately not enough content. I'd love a game like that, tons of different maps, armies, commanders, enemies, mutators, objectives without the stress of ladder 1v1. Better campaigns and coop would sell I'm sure of it. What was the best part of Red Alert? Campaign and skirmish. Warcraf 3? Campaign and custom games. Starcraft 2? Campaign and coop. I'd pay for a modern RTS with that focus even if it was $99 (just make sure to include rocking music and a pleasing art style).

>>713865037
>i'd kill for a TAB 2 or even just dlc for the game
I'm not sure what they could even add in a sequel.
The graphics are perfect for this game, enemies are varied, most buildings have their place. Other than new maps, there's not really much design space left for adding more buildings/enemies etc.
The map generator can be quite shit, and the balance is a bit wonky.

What can save RTS is making a well balanced product. That means not just catering to just SP or MP fags, you actually want both. In the modern era you also want to throw a bone to people looking for Co-op stuff but this can be done alongside SP if you're clever. You'll probably also want to try and support custom/modded games as well because that will attract it's own crowd. And then on top of all that you need to have a decent idea for your game's window dressing. Good art style and music can help sell that shit. of course the bigger issue with some of these is you need to set a reasonable expectation for sales and shit because RTS games aren't likely to ever reach huge player numbers.

>>713819815
>comfy
No. Fuck no.

>>713868596
why

>>713818468 (OP)
Game design courses I guess? The fuck ups have been mostly at game director level

>>713868614
Maybe 1 in 500 games are comfy, and that's because they have a UI that doesn't make me want to kill myself.

>>713865118
>If you are under 150 APM in 1v1 against a pro, you will not win.
The pro could limit himself to 150 APM (or less for that matter), or play with his feet, and still shit on you, you coping retard.

>>713818468 (OP)
>What can save RTS?
another fanbase

>>713821994
>teached
hmmmmm pattern recognition system activated

>>713868861
>Calm and chill in the middle of the storm

>you don't need APM
t. teuton player

>>713848367
>compfags being easy to satisfy
Have you not seen how demanding they are? Just look at all the RTSes that failed to appease them and only a handful that have succeeded. Making a game for online play requires meticulous playtesting, balancing, bug squashing, and constant post-launch support and community management, because competitive players will find the most broken, overpowered and unfun strategies and shamelessly abuse them until the game is ruined for everyone and moan about it on the forums. Indeed, when working on competitive gameplay as a dev, the playerbase is your worst enemy and you are the fun police whose job it is to iron out the faction quirks and cool strategies until everything is perfectly balanced and boring.
That is, if you can attract them and make them stay in the first place - you know they still have their old games they never stop playing and always go back to in the end.

>>713866860
>It's only fun if I win every time
Your friends stopped playing vidya with you a long time ago, huh?

>>713825037
Obviously it's a simplification. You need some amount of APM, below which you'll just not able to execute the important tasks properly, and that amount depends on the game and skill level of your opponents. Past that amount, yes every additional effective APM is an advantage, but not one that is more valuable than better tactics or strategy.

I'll add that allocating your APM correctly (i.e. what you choose to focus on, at the detriment of other things) is more important than the APM itself, and also that very high APM will not save you if your decision making and tactics are complete trash.

>>713848367
This is a complete inversion, singleplayer RTS is what pays for the decades of balance passes that compfags hang on the bell day and night for.

>>713868146
I don't think any of this is correct, except for the mention that RTS is a small niche. Instead of putting all your eggs in one basket trying to make a big game for everyone, it's always better and safer to go with a smaller project for a specific group of players.

>>713869793
As an RTS enjoyer here everytime i see something overpowered or something to be bitched about it comes from a much deeper fuckup that no number tweaking can fix, meaning the whole game design is fucked up somehow and wasn't thought out very well

Like Homeworld 3 or Iron Harvest. Once you play them for 1 hour you instantly see how they're beyond redemption

>>713870550
>Iron Harvest.
Loved that game.
Made my friend immediately quit playing it with me forever when I used Cavalry to rush him down.

>>713819815
because if you dont know what to do you get killed in 5 minutes by units you dont even have access to yet and if both players are clueless it ends up being a 40 minute snoozefest, its like the only genre where you have to read shit or watch videos before you play because you wont get better by just playing

I genuinely believe society is simply becoming too retarded for certain genres to truly flourish in this day and age, RTS games being one of them. How do we fix this?

>>713870657
You can't. When white people go extinct, this world is cooked. Maybe asians might revive the genre idk

>>713841896
Multiplayer balance of AoE II's predecessor has also had a not insignificant impact on its own design. If anything it succeeded with both sides.

>>713856612
That's only really applicable to Chronicles, and there's only Battle for Greece insofar.

>>713870627
Iron Harvest is something that i would be madly in love if it wasn't so annoyingly, irredeemably badly designed in everything, from the micro managing to the teching, unit roles, "veterancy" abilities, economy by capping points, balance, and super fucking stupid map design. It was doomed when they said they were also doing it for consoles, and that shows on the UI and how limited it is.

Campaign may be ok and that's what people defend on it. But as a skirmish or MP is less than a poor man's CoH, it's not even its own thing.

>>713819838
>"nonny"
>acting haughty about RTS of all genres
I know what you are faggot, shut your mouth

>>713870654
>If you are dumb, dumb things happen to you

>>713818468 (OP)
I like those ones that have RTS elements on the side to add some tower defense flavor to their bases.
Factorio comes to mind as a really cool genre crossover game.
Colony sims could have it, but usually fall short with the units having piss and shit meters holding back any combat potential in favor of survival elements.

>>713870550
Reading Zero-K's dev blog was an interesting insight into the competitive scene. Competitive players are like children who tinker with their toys, trying to see how they work until the toy breaks and they cry about it. Trying to get them to play nice is a full time job.

>>713818468 (OP)
Nintendo makes a mario RTS. One faction can be Koopaling and other is toads.

>>713870794
A lot of it's aspects reminded me of CoH, and EaW's ground battles.
Two of my favorite RTS games, which is probably why I was able to tolerate that jank fest as long as I did.

It's so close to what I want from the genre, yet still so far.

>have average/decent APM
>contract COVID and get diagnosed with POTS afterwards
>brain fog cuts APM by 75% forever
life isn't fair /v/ros

People argue that MOBAs killed RTSs, but the real nail in the coffin was Blizzard's own custom map policy revisions that they enacted when SC2 came out: anything you make and publish with their editor was legally theirs. They would rather neuter any hopes of their game gaining traction than miss out on another DotA.
When the most popular RTS in the world dies, what hope does the rest of the genre has? The only ones that came out relatively unscathed were less intensive titles like AoE, but by then the damage was done.

>>713857229
Stop, you can't acknowledge apm as a measurement of your ability to multitask, otherwise you will hurt the zoomzoom's feelios. You HAVE to call it "gookclicking", because mindlessly clicking over and over 400 times per second wins games obviously, not the ability to control your army and multitask your economy that 400 apm number would otherwise implies.

>>713870105
starcraft hasn't gotten a balance patch in 25 years and in the current day people are playing thousands of times more multiplayer hours than singleplayer

>>713871243
This would have literally never happened without Koreans latching on.

>>713871025
Sorry about your vax status bro, just double up, I'm sure it will work out next time

>>713820014
I agree with pretty much everything you said. I think a fundamental problem that RTS has is that the "fantasy" idea of the game is at odds with the way competitive play actually plays out. Your average person wants to build cool bases and armies and have them fight. Ignoring half the tech tree, making guys run in circles to mess with pathfinding and all those other kind of little things don't "feel" right even though they make sense when you look at the game from a meta strategy point of view. Off the top of my head I can't immediately think of any other genre that has such a separation between the "fantasy" or high level concept of a game and how the game is actually mechanically best played.

>>713871294
the koreans latched on because of playing multiplayer in internet cafes.

>>713871317
i was not vaccinated

>>713818468 (OP)
RTS games don't need to change fundamentally as a whole, we just need a good one to release for the first time in over a decade.

>>713830232
Saying any other genre is dead in an RTS thread is really funny.

>>713870550
Iron Harvest is one of my favorite examples of how hard it is to build and manage a multiplayer community. IH devs gave up on fixing it altogether and one of the last things they did was adding the world map mode, because they knew solo players like those.
Another game that botched its launch was Line War. Intended for compfags from the start it didn't even include skirmish AI (you could only play as both sides on your own) and the reception was lukewarm. The dev eventually did add an AI opponent which is when players started to play it more. Ever since then he was working overtime on adding more singleplayer features and content.

>>713818995
>comfiness
Disagree, focus on the power fantasy. People played terrain because they could have siege tanks blasting their enemy from 2 screens away, people played GLA so they could vomit raiders and suicide bombers all over their enemy, people play the dwarfs so they can have completely unbreakable infantry and flamethrowers. The whole problem with tourney fagging is that for a game to ever be balanced you have to shave off the most severe differences between factions because one will be inherently better for the way the metagame develops which turns the powerful commander ordering armies and superunits into a fucking adjutant. Its all boring and samey in the name of being competitive instead of zealots being objectively stronger than Marines at the cost of getting shit on by vultures

>>713837928
Then theyre stupid because SC2 coop made monstrous amounts of money. Selling commanders financed years of that games lifespan and it was even better because blizz didn't even think itd do well, they were greasing archon mode that never went above four digits of players or some sad amount

>>713840676
RTS games arent chess. My pawns have shotguns and riot shields but his pawns cost half as much and have molotov cocktails.

>>713848187
Crap Patrol/special forces game modes but with a greater ramge of control so some dudes can do their commander experience around the hero unit guy

>>713818468 (OP)
TBS won, you lost

>>713820014
yeha most players want to build a base and defend vs ai hordes
even factorio is like that but with autistic focus on system building

>>713818468 (OP)
sending more troops until you have more than the enemy is a retarded and unappealing strat.

>does anyone want to save RTS?
Yes
>Does anyone want to play some multiplayer RTS
No

Where is anime RTS? You know, anime girls fix everything.

The problem with RTS is the problem with fighting games.
New people try it and get curb stomped by veterans and then the veterans shit talk the noobs.

>>713873146
You don't need to play Goths

>>713818468 (OP)
Teaching how to predict scenarios. "If I do this, then that will happen".

>>713848187
>How would you party game the RTS though?
BAR already kinda does it with 8v8s being the most popular game mode. A not insignificant part of making multiplayer games enticing is providing "outs" for players where they can lose but it's "not really their fault." You need to learn how to appeal to Dunning-Krugar retards, in other words.

>>713837763
People just want to play with their bros. They don't want to try hard and be sweaty against other sweats.

>>713871521
Sorry about your shit genetics then, I got covid and was completely fine.

>>713872563
does blizzard even care about it? all they needed to do was put a team on it and make 10,000% return on investment for years

>>713873189
Fightans have to be MP. RTS dont need to be MP

>>713873186
You only need to sell the game to somebody once, a good singleplayer campaign is all you need for that. Multiplayer is what you have to help spread word about it, but that's more or less covered by normal marketing anyway.

The truth nobody wants to face is that RTS was never that popular, the market for video games was smaller when it was at its peak, and development costs were lower. You make more money developing games in other genres these days because the vast majority of the market doesn't have the skill or the patience for RTS. It's just that niche, and it has dwindled even further as RTS got spun off into other sub-genres like city builders and grand strategy.

>>713873393
SC was one of the most popular games at one point 10+million sales when the market for video games was smaller

>>713873338
They did before they shuttered development because it still slightly more effort to work with SC2 engine instead of making a new WoW mount. Back when they did they cared they put out some 15 commanders over a few years now they barely even balance patch the game.
Blizz doesnt care about anything at all now except overwatch crossover skins or mount skins.

>>713873360
Tell that to the people who make RTS trying to make the next starcraft E-sport

>>713873187
Japan doesn't make them, weebs don't play them, grognards dislike both anime and women.

>>713873540
You're missing the point, the market is far larger now, but the sub-market for RTS hasn't grown, it's probably shrunk all things considered. Why make an RTS for ~10m people when you can make a six hour corridor shooter for ~100m?

>>713819815
i don't enjoy rts because i can't care about an army like i can a character

>>713873636
Artists are much easier to pay, I doubt there's even anyone left at Blizzard that has the technical expertise for RTS development anymore anyway.

>>713868973
nta, but you do need consistently high APM in Broodwar in order to keep up with the competition. Its true that Macro>Micro, but if you are taking your time building stuff, and not splitting your army properly, you are dead. A pro will play with his feet only when he has secured a victory.
>T. used to play 1v1 competitively in BW

>>713840676
>can play the game on and offline without having your money stolen
>mods potentially increase that value tenfold depending on how active the scene is
>the quality on some of these alone can put the AAA space to shame while not charging an arm and a leg or having to gobble on jewish nuts just to rent out some copyright for that year

>>713873734
but if the overall market is larger (more consumers) then doesn't it stand to reason even the niche markets are bigger too including rts?
>then
>total consumers: 1 mil
>rts consumers: 50k
>now
>total consumers: 50 mil
>rts consumers 1.5 mil

>>713874215
No. A rising tide raises all boats is bullshit.

>>713874071
There's nothing wrong with APM fundamentally, it's a good measure, the problem is that legitimate high APM players are lumped in with mouthbreathing retards that click pointlessly to inflate their numbers. You don't need to click a dozen times to move a unit to a location, it isn't dota.

>>713873734
Not everybody wants to do a corridor shooter. There are enough RTS fans to make financially successful RTS games.

>>713848187
>co op compstomp against impossible level AI with chokepoints
>each player can take up a specific role like fire support, mechanized, air superiority, human waves, sabotage, logistics etc
Hell I do that anyway with the AI. They carry the bulk of the spectacle and I map out fallback points in case they get pushed or encircled. With the right set up you can larp like a war profiteer making mad wealth off the ensuring carnage. If someone gets fucked you give em a top up and send them right back into the grinder.

>>713819815
Here's the REAL problem with RTS. They are repetitive and restrictive. Most missions require for you do the same mundane RTS tasks over and over in order to get into a position where you are able to solve the mission's main task. Yes, there are the classic "control a small army and clear a map" missions as well, but they are expected to be there and if you have played one decent RTS in your life, you will see them coming.
Warcraft 3 tried to experiment with the formula and it worked wonders, but personally, I ended up not liking that herocentric system.
Also, normies hate RTS. They are relatively complex, and the real time aspect is too stressful for them.
Maybe a good plot can be motivating and get you through the boring stuff, but I dont know how you fix RTS
>>713874320
>legitimate high APM players are lumped in with mouthbreathing retards that click pointlessly
Agreed. Braindead clickers and actual high APM players should not be put in the same bag, but Brood war does require lots of clicks to control the game's chaos.
>You don't need to click a dozen times to move a unit to a location
I dont know about AoE, but you kinda need to click more than once to correct your army's pathing in BW. There are some units there(dragoon) that are notoriously bad at finding their own way

>>713874535
>each player can take up a specific role like fire support, mechanized, air superiority, human waves, sabotage, logistics etc
take my money, i want to be in charge of artillery and coordinate surgical strikes and nuking the fuck out of the enemy base with the airforce player

not a RTSfag but a fighting game fag
is APM circlejerking the same shit as people being mad about motion inputs
like it's not nearly as a big of a deal as new players think it is

>>713818468 (OP)
Nothing.
Its in as good of a spot as it can be. It suffers from the fact that the skill floor got raised so much, that new players don't want to join.
Its not a bad thing, its the same thing that happened to arena shooters. Same thing that is happening to Mobas, they are also in decline, since just to start playing for any of these games you need to know as much as the "pro" players from when the genre was in its inception.

>>713874629
Play BAR. in 8v8 each player picks a map position that locks them into a role so you can be the air player on your team or the pure economy player who builds static defenses or the sea player etc.

Personally I love hoard defense games it solves most complaints
>No multiplayer sweating
>PvE where you kill thousands
>Comfy base building

>>713874629
>i want to be in charge of artillery and coordinate surgical strikes and nuking the fuck out of the enemy base with the airforce player
I see you are a man of culture as well.

>>713874662
Pretty much. It's just a convenient excuse people use to not want to get better. They don't want to play a game where they lose to people who are better than them so they latch on to excuses they can find like "they're not actually better they just click more and I don't want to do that"

>>713874662
No.

>>713874215
It stands to reason, but not reality, extrapolation is guesswork, it's not always a reliable indicator for performance. Developers and publishers turned away from the RTS market and were rewarded with wild success for it despite how popular the genre used to be.

I guess it's hard to say if the RTS sub-market is bigger or smaller in an objective sense, there's not enough concrete data to work off of and many factors at play, consoles for example were big towards the end of RTS's reign and gamepad control schemes weren't good for the genre, despite attempts to map them to console. RTS games still get made in the AA and indie sphere, but they don't appear to enjoy the same degree of success as other genres made by similar studios, that's essentially what I'm basing my opinion off of. There's also something to be said for the fact that most RTS players have found 'their game' and aren't willing to jump to another, but then that would support the argument for the RTS market not growing, or at least not growing quickly enough to entice developers into making more games for it.

>>713874778
Why do these click more players not do as well in games where clicking more has diminishing returns?

>>713874916
You've asserted something without providing any evidence for it, I see. I won't be engaging with your fanfiction until you do so.

>>713874965
FAF.

>>713874587
>but Brood war does require lots of clicks to control the game's chaos.
>you kinda need to click more than once to correct your army's pathing in BW
Agreed, and it's about the same for AoE2 and WC3 since pathfinding in those games is medieval and it's genuinely beneficial to resend commands so units don't get stuck on terrain or each other. Something I've noted though is that the behaviour made it across to games with better unit pathing like SC2, maybe it's just a hard habit to break out of?

>>713874717
>zambie vidya with base and resource management
>reach post scarcity and have enough of a surplus to build a nice stockpile of ammo
>go out and brain zeds for hours on end without going into the red
Feelsgoodman

>>713874215
You don't take into account that people who might have played RTS before might now have their needs fulfilled by other genres/games that have become more prevalent over time and also that it's been 20 years since RTS was relevant so a significant proportion of that increased market likely don't even know what RTS is, let alone have any interest in them.

>>713874983
Naming a game isn't actually providing evidence of what you claimed. You would need, for example, to provide a "click more player" and then put him in a "game where clicking more has diminishing returns" and measure some sort of difference, while controlling for other factors that could also explain the difference in ability.

I know I'm putting an awful lot of pressure on you when you just intended to shitpost an infallible position on /v/, but I believe in you lil buddy.

>>713873187
There is LoTGH RTS but it's not translated. You have to contend with Valkyria Chronicles and Touhou Empires until that autist from here completes his anime RTS.

>>713875098
No, actually, I don't have to do that. If APM correlated to better players, they'd rise to the top in every game. They don't.

>>713875192
>No, actually, I don't have to do that.
Okay, well then I guess I will continue not engaging with your fanfiction.

What is the difference between real time strategy and real time tactics? What are some great games for each?

>>713873187
>he hasn't played Yang and Reinhardo's game yet
Ngmi

>>713874717
Was They Are Billions even good though? That's the only game I can think of that's like that.

>>713875220
The stats are there for you to look at. So are the replays.

>>713875378
There's also Diplomacy is not an option, and yes they are fantastic if you like rts games

>>713818917
It's been like three hours so this Anon's probably gone, but if anybody else watches AoE4/BAR tournies, what channels should I be pointing myself to? Is there like a league for these games? I'm interested.

>>713874071
I agree, but I'm replying to someone saying "APM is everything in Brood War", so I'm taking his example to claim you'd lose to the pro exclusively or mainly because of the APM difference, when in reality even at equal APMs or lower APM for the pro the odds are still overwhelmingly in favour of the pro because of things that aren't linked to mechanical execution.

>>713818468 (OP)
Return of C&C -esque games. Rock solid campaign focused rts with fun plot and real actors.
Kane lives!

>>713875014
>maybe it's just a hard habit to break out of?
Definitely is if you are a BW player. I caught myself triple clicking every time I commanded my army to go to x spot in SC2. I bet that SC2 only players dont have that issue
Like some anons say in this thread though, noobs bitching about APM is pointless. RTS will have you do some good multitasking, but if you play enough to have the game's fundamentals written down in your muscle memory and learn how to use the game's hotkeys, you will eventually reach those high APM numbers

>>713875340
The difference is pretty much just scale. Strategy for large scale, Tactics for smaller, but the line does blur a bit since a lot of RTS capital S gets close to going over the line into tactical without going over. WC3 being the prime example since your army will generally not include more than 16 to 20 units at any given time to allow for proper micro, while a game like EE2 gives you enough units to field full unit formations.

I don't know any good RTT, sorry.

>>713875453
Yeah, it's not actually my job to convince myself of your position. It's up to you to provide convincing evidence. "Go look it up" isn't convincing.
The bottom line is that higher APM correlates with a greater ability to multitask. In most RTS games, multitasking is important. Therefore, successful RTS players will have a higher APM. You can cope about that simple truth however you see fit.

>>713874662
We get similar retards in AFPS threads who bitch about timing and strafe jumping.

>>713840676
Stop comparing your chink slop to chess

>>713875340
Generally the base building. The most prominent example is DoW2 where you only have a handful of squads and they can get completely eliminated for the map, but there are more mechanics with the units that let you make the most of each of them.

>>713875549
You can put Bannerlord in under RTT providing your potato can actually go above 1000 v 1000 without giving you 3rd degree burns. Actually tardwrangling that many dudes in real time with firing orders, spacing and movement would make you fit to become a modern major general.

>>713875769
Fuck you, I can hear it

>>713875493
BAR is free and you can watch the tourney replays in game. You should unironically install BAR just to watch replays in game even if you don't plan to play just so you can look around and rewind and stuff at your own pace. I can't recommend a good BAR channel that casts or make videos because I haven't found one, I find them all insufferable so I just started watching the replays myself. If I had to choose a BAR youtuber to watch it would probably be Drongo because he's the least whiney and annoying but not by much

>>713875668
Quake movement was super cancer.

>>713875535
This is why I said Macro>Micro. People should sit down and learn how to manage their economies first. Most noobs make the classic mistake of not saturating properly the mineral/gas lines, or spend too much on turret defense and end up falling behind in terms of economy.
So in reality if someone wants to play an RTS competitively he needs to learn these in that order
>Macromanagement of your base
>Pros and cons of your units/race vs other factions/races
>Sim city tactics to properly block your base's entrance
>Proper scouting
>Build strategies that work well against the enemy and counter strategies against all in enemy strategies
>Proper control of your army
>The timing of your moves
As you can see, only the last two steps require APM. The steps 1-5 dont require high APM but are much more important and will guarantee you victories against braindead clickers

>>713875847
Your heckin wholesome Brightworks tho

>>713875540
>general debra wilson needs you to capture this scientist from the enemy stronghold

>>713876194
>rewards you by flopping out them big ole chocolate tiddies in a 144p FMV

>>713874662
APM is actually the easiest to improve, you just keep playing and use your keyboard. Micro isn't rocket science - move units into combat, out of danger, avoid bad engagements, time cast abilities well. What shitters hate to admit is their lack of skill in base building and resource management, you know, the stuff they say is their favorite thing to do. Most competitive RTSes have really busy and complicated eco, too. And I say this as a shitter.

>>713876562
The issue people have with it is that it's a lot of active math, at least to start with. Like chess, most players don't really think that many moves ahead, and RTS is worse than that because you're not just tracking possible moves, you need to know what you can afford and when you'll be able to afford it well in advance and adjust on the fly. It's cerebral to the point it's outside of common abilities.

>>713876562
You are vastly overestimating peoples' capacity for improvement.

>>713876194
Can't lie, she's starting to grow on me. That's probably a bad sign.

>>713875340
RTTs are often described by what they don't have in relation to a classic RTS, the main thing is no economy management in real time, some games have a strategy layer for the campaign mode where you unlock and upgrade units and manage a economy from battle to battle, sometimes units carry over.

This doesn't mean no resource management inside battles of course, you often have some kind of population cap and a resource that you spend to buy units from a prepared list (some games will have army building, but it's never in real time, you choose your unit list outside the match), units have limited ammo or special abilities, or you only have so many units and can't build anymore, this means that you must be resourceful and apply combat tactics carefully, terrain matters a lot more and it will be simulated in finer detail.

I'll recommend 2 games; an old classic, Myth 2, it's a dark fantasy medeval game with a very good campaign.
And a modern game, Gates of Hell, it's a ww2 game like Company of heroes, but a lot more tactical.

>>713876307
She used to look like a human? What happened in the intervening decades from then to now? Early trial for ozempic or what?

>>713876917
Decades of makeup and weave to try to look like a human instead of an orangutan

>>713875847
Cheers Anon, I appreciate it!

>>713818468 (OP)
It's simple. I will not play your game if the only way to get good at it is to "just" spent time upfront building up muscle memory. Simple as that.

I will not play your game if it has 20 units and only 2-3 of them are competitively viable. Simple as that.

>>713877026
Well, I would the webm at any rate. Big booba and tight body.

>>713877257
And both of these problems can be solved if your game doesn't have an "inbuilt" ranked ladder.

I'm really curious about RTS games but I feel like I just fundamentally don't play them correctly so I usually quit them pretty fast.

>>713818468 (OP)
Stop trying to make e sports a think, thats literally it, when all people see from the genre is koreans clicking and tapping at 1000 APM, no one wants to play

>>713877339
>>713878225
Yep.

>>713877917
There's an enormous skill ceiling so there will always be things you're doing wrong. Even the top players in the world are doing things wrong and could optimize more on some level. There are always worse players than you too though so it's still fun to play and you can always find winnable games

come on nigger, good rts's with a large active player base is basically the original star war trilogy of videos games. we had AOE2, SC BW, and WC3 TFT. NOTHING will be able to beat that you MIGHT be able to take AOM and AOE4 and pass them off as ROTS. it's a basically lightning ina bottle that can't be replicated.
>new innovative genre with few options thus large potential player base
>lots of white suburban nerds with lots of free time
>non global homo profits before (game)play disease corrupting the industry
if you weren't a fucking retarded faggot you would have used your rts skills to win irl
t. 1300 high plat AOE4 former top 100 wc3 manchild
anyways, how to save the genre? its really cant be. to salvage whats left we need to consolidate ALL rts players onto a single game. not happening with the current dialogue between aoe2 and aoe4 alone. to attract new players the skill curve would have to be lowered and undermine the main appeal of the genre to players that are already active. would stop playing chess to just to play checkers with a bunch of fucking noobs? but then again aoe4 has been experiencing a surprisingly pleasant increase in players, young people even.

>>713818540
^^^^^^^^
hes right you know

>>713878530
Why the fuck would I go to your game when I don't like how a single one of those games play?

>>713878343
Classic compfag.

I don't want to "win" the game. I want to actually "play" the game. I don't care who wins at the end of a 1 hour match.
Example: The entire point of Dawn of War is to see large units blowing the shit out of each other.

The highest priority of compfags is to lock the opponent from "playing" the game. Everything else like "strategy" comes after. So unless you grind your APM, you can't even produce the army you want, you can't deploy a strategy, everything is locked behind APM.

>>713878798
This reply makes zero sense to the conversation

>>713876748
I don't think she looks that bad, but the face scanning tech makes her look like shit more often than not.

>>713878615
that's my point, rts as a genre CANT be saved. its way to niche for an already abysmally small player base. btw try out animal crossing, you still build a 'base' and dont have to worry about all the stressful stuff like apm and losing match.

>>713879010
Because if it did, then RTS would be a thriving genre.

>>713879014
It's not what she looks like that gets me, it's that when I see her in a game I just go "Oh, that's Debra Wilson." The character's actual name doesn't stick in my head, she's just Debra Wilson, like she's some fucking eldritch entity hopping from game universe the game universe. It's a little bit funny at this point.

>>713865037
>>713867352
Thoughts on Age of darkness?

>>713879064
I genuinely have no idea what you're trying to say in this conversation. Please stop replying to me and just rant to yourself because your responses to me aren't making sense

>>713857254
his unit makeup was "countered" by the opponent's
it didn't matter because he clicked very fast

>>713879105
More of a dev problem for having to rely on face scanning than making and animating original models, but a fair point.

RTSes still live thru moba tho

>>713879702
KYS perchance

Different day same thread. Rts are not dead and will never be. There are more rts players today than in the "golden ages".

>>713866685
SupCom struggles with large scale matches because of no multi-threading support. Basically the entire playerbase moved on to BAR, the definitive TA successor.

>>713879032
There is more to the genre than what you have personally played.

>>713818468 (OP)
RTS games are ruined by the obnoxious micro managing you need to do to actually perform well in them. People want games like these to be comfy. It's why 4X games are the only strategy games that actually do well.

>>713875540
https://store.steampowered.com/app/1486920/Tempest_Rising/

>>713820014
I mean trying to appeal to multiplayer competitive sweat lords is basically the problem with every strategy game that does that. 4x games are shit when they focus on multiplayer. RTS games are shit when they focus on multiplayer.

>>713844754
>turn based
at least Minion Masters plays fully in real time.

>>713872029
RTS isn't dead. It might have been for the longest time between 2010 and 2020 were only SC2 existed (and bled players)
There are multiple games with a stable online player base now
SC2, WC3, AoE2, AoE4, BAR, FAF, Skylords
not even counting stuff like CoH or Total War
there are more RTS in development right now than in that whole timeframe. A lot of old classics got revived (SC1, Stronghold, C&C Generals, Battle Realms, C&C1).

>>713840676
do you think most people that play chess nowadays don't play that against an ai on their phone, so they don't have to wait for turns?

I want Warzone 2100 and KKND revived

RTS is dead because the barrier of entry is too high. RTS are by far the most difficult genre to learn amongst strategy games so people just go for the other genres instead. I don't think RTS really has anything inherent to it alone that actually draws people to them over other sub genres.

>>713874215
Why waste developer hours for that when they're much more valuable when developing the latest sports game or moviegame slop? That is the corporate logic.

>>713882368
doesn't Warzone still receive updates from time to time. Also there was a KKND remake in the works (two I think)

>>713818468 (OP)
Marketing/framing. If you can get men to get excited for a game, you can get it up. RTS games just have shite marketing.
I reckon some anime girls on tanks will be popular.
>>713870654
If you don't know it gets frustrating. I know in Dawn of War when I first played, I spent 20+ minutes on a match, only for it all to go bad, and I didn't understood why I died. I liked the look of the Orks which pushed me through, but to a lot of people that would be a big push.
It's not that it's hard, it's that I don't know what's the criteria of success. I know what it is in say, Mega Man. But I don't know if I'm creating my army well in an RTS.

>>713884062
>Warzone 2100
yes, devs made it open source, community develops it constantly
unfortunately they also change s lot of stuff needlessly like changing what location each research is located or even the U.I elements
>KKND plans
neat, looking forward to it

>>713884027
and still we got a Dune (almost) rts and a upcoming GoT rts

>>713886603
The GoT RTS is actually something I'm looking forwards to, seems like a decent AA which is a rarity. Quite unexpected.

>>713858483
i wish infantry in it wasnt shit.

>>713887838
How is it shit? It looks like it's a realistic game, so they need to be inside cities or forests.

>>713874717
i like mindustry but it's more of a towerdefense game with waves. nice autism in logistics/production though

>>713882648
>RTS is dead because the barrier of entry is too high
Wrong right out of the gate.
You've just exposed yourself to a low ELO shitter that excuses your lack of skill by claiming everyone online is a no life basement dwelling korean 1000 APM tryhard.
Newsflash, they aren't.
Most people play RTS for the campaign, the level of entry is as low as it has ever been.

RTS can be saved by making it make sense to a new player. Most player just press buttons randomly without sense. They do not have answers to questions the game presents them. Do I build 1 soldier guy and one tank? Do I build 3 soldier guys and put them in the APC? Do I reserach this ability or do I just build more units or do I do this or do I do that? A player has no reliable way to predict the outcome of his own actions, obviously this process is highly unpleasant.

>>713888136
even if your infantry is inside forests or cities, you can have tanks/IFVs just roll up close to your infantry and stomp them when IRL they'd be scared of closing the gap since they'd die to AT launchers. infantry costs too much for what you get out of it when you could just get some cheaper IFV shitbox that's better in nearly every regard.

>>713818468 (OP)
I want SC2 coop with more unlockables kinda like in AOEO but more and without any ties to neither Blizzard, M$ nor EA.

>>713818468 (OP)
nothing i am afraid. they are too slow burn and online play is a slaughterhouse that dwarfs all other online genres in its brutality

t. 34 year old boomer, grew up playing rts

>>713818468 (OP)
Only way to save RTS is for you to start playing them. People who play them don't think they need saving.

>>713818468 (OP)
RTS never died and honestly the “golden age” was just a few games. There were more RTS on the market, that's for sure. But most of them weren't popular. Seeing how the most popular RTS games are in the top 100 most played games on Steam shows that people like the genre

>>713889205
RTSissies wouldn't last 5 minutes in a Dota 2 lobby
except Grubby he aight

>>713889385

you mean the game that was born out of warcraft 3 map editor? its literally rts lite for retards like you..

>>713818756
Same. I played the campaigns but zero interest in online sperg games.

>>713889451
I mean the most competitive game in the world

>>713879132
Decent.
Campaign/Single player more coherent than TAB at least.

The problem is the final wave is x100 more difficult than anything you've faced before, so it feels really unfair at times.
Map seed is everything.
Co-op is okay, but kinda ruined because you get 2 waves basically one each, so it feels more like you're just playing single-player with the occasional multiplayer-interaction of "send gold pls".
Haven't played in a long time though, so maybe they've changed/fixed that.

>>713889524
Quake?

>>713818468 (OP)
>what can save RTS
fun, fleshed out games with lots of good single player content like TW:W3
>what can teach people the necessary skills for them
streamlining control of the camera and units would help a lot. Something like mouse wheel to cycle which units the camera is focused on would help. I think dividing control of units to be seperated into groups like in TW:W instead of singular units helps as well. It's fine for singular units if your using 40 or less, but after that even with hotkeys for groups it becomes a serious hassle to micro and it's very hard to manage multiple groups and fronts effectively. Most RTS expect you to manually group units for control, if they came pre grouped and hot keyed, it would make control easier, and would highlight the importance of doing that for new players. Someone who plays RTS casually will never win in online matches because they don't even understand how to group and move units, and how to prioritize resource use and production. Better tutorials to teach these important ideas would be nice, but the genre only caters to the 30+ crowd and gets no new players, so I don't see this happening any time soon.

>>713882648
Bullshit because the most popular game of all time is a rouguelike

>>713889641
total war is not RTS

>>713889695
my bad, I forgot it was a rhythm game, how could I be so silly

>>713889524

are you brown? please be honest

>>713889138
play Skylords Reborn.
Most pve and rpve content is made for coop and a lot of unlockables (Cards and upgrades)

>>713889385
>5minutes?
rude, I manage to last 20min before I got bored of the forced tutorial

>>713889695
Where are we supposed to go then, is it a 4x?

>>713890168
turn based strategy with real time tactics battles

>>713890261
you are being retarded, the turn based component has nothing to do with the actual combat.

>>713818468 (OP)
devs and especially publishers must accept that they are not likely to replace starcraft and age of empires. include multiplayer, but focus on singleplayer.
yeah like that would ever happen, thats why they arent making them.

People play RTS to "feel like" they are a big brain smart strategist, but they don't want to learn complex mechanics and bulding strats and the spammable hotkeys.

>>713890261
Behold, ye young and oulde!
A Turn Based Strategy gaame!

>>713890850
with rts battles

>>713889826
Heт

>>713891226
That's just a bug that God never released a patch for.

>>713890168
it's a hybrid, its 4x with RTS battles.

RTS is being saved
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G3KZMsS8LCw

>>713818468 (OP)
Quick walling shouldn't exist, change my mind. I'd go even further to say that all foundations should be pathable until built. It's strategy and planning to build your town and defences before hand.

RTS is a boomer genre

>>713892081
its pretty lame, but villagers are also so vulnerable. frankly Im pretty sick of microing a million workers too.

>BAR this
>BAR that
It is such an ugly looking game thoughever.
One would think they could've taken some inspiration from great games like Supreme Commander and actually given the various "races" a distinct look.
Instead it looks like a bunch of lego-pieces waddling around.

I recently bought Broken Arrow and been having a blast playing it.

>>713892163
>RTS is a boomer genre
>but we can't play online or we will lose to sweaty zoomers
which one is it?

>>713866886
>doesn't know that /comfy/ originated on this website
take your mullato spic nigger ass back to tiktok, "nephew"

>>713890439
Cope harder, anon. The distinction is semantics at this point-strategic layer happens on the campaign map, then your decisions push you into tactical battles. If you're mashing "autoresolve" and ignoring the interplay between your economy, unit comp, and positioning, you're the one not engaging with the core loop. It's not an RTS with a pointless map slapped on top, it's a fusion. Adapt or perish.

>>713876917
She's in her late 60s now. Not to mention her tits are fake as shit they always have been really.

>>713845324
You still do all the planning, building, design, strategy, etc. It's just the combat itself is resolved based on setup not player input after the start.

>>713879702
you mean tower defense :^)

>>713889385
Sure thing bro.

RTT raped RTS and dumped it's corpse in a sewer. You don't need to induce arthritis to be decent at them.
RTS is so dead as a genre that people call RTT games RTS now.

RTS is weird.
Fps had a natural evolution, it still feels good to play, the graphics have only made it look better, the progression systems feed into itself.
RPGs have likewise been able to keep up with the times.

But RTS has held onto design philosophies that haven't progressed.
>Graphics don't matter because the majority of RTS is all top down and zoomed out. You're look at a texture of grass and dirt and slightly upscaled models even in 2025. If anything they look worse than before.
>Creativity isn't encouraged, you don't pick units you want based on style or personal flair, you chose the ones purely for utility.

We need more shit like Pikmin.

>>713900073
>But RTS has held onto design philosophies that haven't progressed.
They did, they just did so in such a radical way that they spun off into entirely new sub-genres.

>>713818468 (OP)
>wanted to get into RTS way back in the day
>get absolutely destroyed on every single online match
>look for some tips
>read about build orders, APM, timed buildings, etc
>realize this isnt fun at all and there's basically zero strategy involved
>quit playing

>>713900436
sour grapes

>>713900073
>Creativity isn't encouraged, you don't pick units you want based on style or personal flair, you chose the ones purely for utility.
What are you complaining about here? That you have to use strategies with purpose and you can't just spam your favorite strat and win constantly? Or are you talking about universally terrible balancing of vidya killing diversity of strategies?
None of these are exclusive to RTS btw.

>>713900887
>>713900160
If I'm playing Elden ring you can duel anyone with any weapon and all that matters is how you want to look.
In RTS games there's "strategy" but no tactics that allow you to specialize into something you want to play and allow your skills to carry you.

I'm interested in prototyping a Pikmin like RTS game where you directly control the units, and focus more on the gameplay and tactics rather than strategy

>>713818468 (OP)
cope

>>713902668
So like Myth?

top players have high apm because they are doing more things. low apm players will often have periods where they aren't doing anything because they don't realize they should be doing something. if you were watching a top player in any game play and he paused the game and asked you to list everything he needs to be doing at that moment you would probably miss out on half of the things he was thinking about in his head.

>>713824091
big brain

>>713902668
>In RTS games there's "strategy" but no tactics that allow you to specialize into something you want to play and allow your skills to carry you.
Of course there is. Even the greatest players are not perfect and often specialize in a skill set or a playstyle. As a beginner you can totally focus on one thing and make it your "signature play" while you develop your mechanics further.

If this can't get the young to play, nothing will.

they don't need saving

>>713819838
you being good at sucking dick does not make sucking dick good

>>713900073
>Graphics don't matter because the majority of RTS is all top down and zoomed out.
You think that would be the case but major RTSes have unreasonable levels of graphical detail that most players never notice - like snow in Earth 2150 that slowly builds up on your vehicles which then gradually disappears as they move out. SupCom especially had nice graphics despite its large scale, yet 90% of the time you're watching tiny symbols on a zoomed out map, what a waste of effort. I respect tasteful minimalism of games like Infested Planet or Rusted Warfare where not even thousands of units can bog down crappier PCs, though I do dislike indies overusing dogshit-looking low-poly.
>You're look at a texture of grass and dirt and slightly upscaled models even in 2025.
RTSes have to be somewhat plain, otherwise the details would blend in and obscure everything. I mean, Small Trees for AoE2 is one of the most popular graphical mods for a reason.

>>713905618
why was this a thing

>>713905618
That's actually insane, I wish games besides minecraft had this much modding capability.

>>713906392
>RTSes have to be somewhat plain, otherwise the details would blend in and obscure everything.
This is pretty much the most important thing, if you can't distinguish units at a glance in RTS, the art direction is fucked. WC3:R had this issue real bad, but it could have been worse if it were zoomed out at greater distances.

Been playing coop skirmishes in Galactic Battlegrounds and having a blast

>>713900436
I thought this stuff was actually cool to learn - looking at how all the pieces come together and how to put them together to design your strategy, and I find this useful in other games, too. However, I just don't have the resilience to put up with all the busywork. Playing RTSes for real is exhausting.

>>713904230
>>713905097
>>713906392
This is why I'm talking about making a real hands on, almost 3rd person shooter, with mechanics spread out across multiple units.
Another failing of RTS is the lack of visceral feedback. When you're the "grand strategist" a unit death is insignificant. But put yourself into the driver's seat and you'll feel every death.

And this is where choke points and objectives matter more. Strategy is about formulating the order of what to do, why to do it. But with this semi 3rd person RTS game it'll be more focused on you holding objectives in real time based on your needs. Match objectives will be based on what the player needs "here and now" instead of what HQ needs, the squad is the HQ and the player moves the squad to secure objectives.

>>713907772
You're not even talking about an RTS game at this point

>guys what if RTS but you are the dudue!1!!!
ideaguy holocaust really needs to happen

>>713818468 (OP)
Grand strategy already saved it.
When I say Thank You, you say, Paradox.

THANK YOU

>>713907713
This dog looks like a idiot

>>713907984
They are casuals. Their opinions don't matter.

>>713821623
>can we pause? timmy's mom just brought pizza

>>713907542
the game thrones RTS isnt looking all that great on that front

>>713818468 (OP)
Just focus on good old campaigns
Sport ruined rts

>>713907542
Driftland had very pretty fantasy architecture but it was hard to tell the buildings apart, so you had to unzoom to see their symbols like in SupCom.

>>713907982
pikmin is an rts, the genre needs to evolve into this space.

>>713907984
>>713908094
there's more hardcore melee players than rts fans. You don't matter.

>>713900073
Zooming is an interesting issue. Many players complain about RTSes that don't let them zoom out far enough. In another thread about milsims where the action is viewed from way above, though, anons wished they could zoom in closer to get a good look of the soldiers and vehicles and stuff.

>>713909291
>that don't let them zoom out far enough

>>713909282
post steamcharts or stfu forever

>>713908526
Rts is a dead man walking. Aoe4 isn't complete bs, still has 0 player.

>>713890824
because memorizing build orders is the opposite of strategy

>>713910851
>>713908526
nobody knows what people want, rts players just want the old games and that it it

>>713910980
>having a strategy is the opposite of strategy

>>713910839
Another problem with RTS is that it diverges so much per game so everyone here is pulling in different directions. You want completely different games and systems in place and label competition as "not real RTS"

But Pikmin is an RTS the same as Dawn of war 2.
genre labels mean very little in video games so I don't care. I just want to post my thoughts on an experimental RTS type game I want to work on.

>>713911405
I think we need something truly NEW, but no one can even imagine what it would be

/v/ never recovered from getting proxy gated in 2010

>>713910532
I recently replayed CnC generals with a zoomhack (it was included in the patch that let it run properly on modern machines) and honestly it was much nicer. It doesn't even need to be a lot more zoom, just a little bit more so you can assess to situation better.

>>713911643
I agree that generals is too zoomed in

Saying you don't need APM to play RTS is like saying you don't need cardio to play sports.

>>713909291
Zooming out is a competitive advantage no ifs or buts. There's a reason SC2 doesn't support ultrawide. Milsims are for casual apmlets

>>713818468 (OP)
>What can save RTS?
get rid of the over reliance on build orders. no game should allow the mechanically worse player to beat someone better through rote memorization.
completely lost interest in any rts when the first few minutes of any match is the exact same as the fifty matches before it. it's not fun to play against and not worth the effort of chasing that one match, out of a thousand, where an opponent introduces something original.

>>713912010
what are examples of not having memorized orders?

>>713818540
This. People want to prop up Age of Empires 2 as a shining beacon, but Age of Empires 2 wasn't a gookclickfest when it launched. It was a campaign with fun skirmish mode that people played with friends and sometimes played against other players on the internet. That is listed in order of importance.

If a dev wants to pander to people who have broken their enjoyment to seek 200+/300+apm in a genre over the past 30 years, there is no possible way to "catch people up". It's the same conundrum as Quake. Of new players, 0.00001% will have the capacity and ability to eventually compete against people who have been playing Quake for 30 years.

The answer is to just make an RTS game that people play for the reasons people played RTS games in the 90s and early 00s. I want to play a fun and interesting campaign of meaningful size and depth without having to buy $150 of addons while getting a variety of objectives to accomplish. When I'm done, I want to use an easy-to-use map editor to make fun skirmish maps to play against overwhelming numbers of AI players with my friends on my team. Then we want to play maps based on Starship Troopers, Scream, open RPGs and American football.
>noooo you have to populate the ladder
Fuck you. Nobody populated any faggot-ass ladder in 1999 when Age of Empires 2 released.

>>713910532
No, I actually do because I play games that let me.

>>713911778
This cunt typed this unironically, missing that 999,999 out of 1,000,000 people play sports for fun and are not in shape to compete in the Olympics.

>>713912362
That's only because Internet wasn't so widespread. Now it so, so only multiplayer matters.

The single biggest problem with RTS is fog of war. There, I said it.

>>713912716
What good RTSs have you played without FoW

>>713912716
bro your scout?

>>713911513
Current players can't comprehend an APM less than 300 but above zero. If RTS is to have a future, it's based in milsim games like Harpoon, Sea Power, CMO, Cold Waters, etc. Grogs in, gooks out. But it won't happen because it's an even tinier niche.

>>713912210
do you mean
>what are some examples of someone not using a build order?
or
>what are your examples of someone introducing something original?

rephrase that question

>>713907514
ironically saying this in an RTS thread, probably one of the most moddable genres.

>>713911438
I meant you don't strategize. You just use what everyone else is using because it's basically the mathematical optimal, there is no room to deviate. The pre-game is basically solved.
It's like calling yourself a top chef and you only ever cooked five meals by a cookbook.

>but build orders are only openings
they are a waste of time and should be automated if you can't design skirmish without them. I'm specifically talking about onne of the worst offender, AoE. There are other games not nearly as bad. The only good thing I can say about AoE is that maps are randomized so there is a bare minimum of variations to the first 5min of gameplay.

>>713889451
>its literally rts lite for retards like you..
sounds like the average RTS enjoyer will love it

>>713912832
nta Battleforge.
I think there are a couple of rts that lets you turn it off and I faintly remember one game that let you research some tech that removed it.

Not saying having no fog of war is good.
SupCom is a very positive example, radar kind of lets you ignore it to some extent. Not a lot of games do anything special with fog of war/intel

>>713912210
Basically anything TA. Here a very very simple BAR build order for 1v1:
>3 mexes
>2 winds or 2 solars if it's a bad wind map
>factory of your choice
>2 more winds if wind
>make scout unit, make 2 con units
>have one con unit OR your comm expand, the other build con turrets up and then start building your eco
>you're now free to do whatever
75% of that is queued up before the match even starts. The timing on it isn't exacting so it's nothing like build orders in other RTS and you don't even have to follow it to a tee or get fucked in the ass.

>>713911405
>old games and that
Objectively better

If your eapm is less than 150 and wpm is less than 80 when shittalking oppenents, lower your tone when talking to me

>>713818468 (OP)
30 minutes without downtime is too long (and its more like an hour at pleb elo aka the genre’s entry point)
Rigid buildpaths that lock down your first 5-10 minutes of gameplay is bad
An explosive economy with no catchup mechanics means you can spend half the game waiting for your opponent to make a mistake in order to let you actually play the game again

>>713913537
I don't play games where that shit matters.

>>713835409
Its the game designers fault a spreadsheet exists

>>713913497
That's a build order. Your game is gookclick.

>>713913497
if you pick the wrong pixel to spawn on you're seconds behind because of commander turn speed/acceleration and might as well gg

>>713912923
So you believe island maps just shouldn't be a thing?
>Of course not, Starcraft doesn't have them :)

>>713858395
I dont think anybody has ever approached the quality of roguelikes when it comes to using your ingenuity to escape a sticky situation at a slow pace
The amount of tools you have available to you is very high, the power level of consumable tools can be pushed very high because access to them is truly limited, you have lots of time to consider between them, and the lack of quicksaving makes your decision have real impact

>>713870019
The problem is you have to be thinking constantly about what to spend your time doing with no breaks for 30+ minutes and the punishment for choosing wrong is compounded by the exponential nature of the economy

>>713914605
playing lots of trad roguelikes cured me from hoarding consumables

>>713818468 (OP)
What do you think is a fitting currency
>organic materials, like dried mushrooms, claws, bones
>minerals or ores
>manufactured items like dolls or jeweks
Gold is boring af.

What Rts have the best gold surrogate? Gold or credits are anything but original.

>>713913965
No.

>>713915004
Tiberium is still the king

>>713915269
I'll tell it to you how it is: it's king. That's exactly what I had in mind. Was copied often enough, arguably even expanse copied itn

>>713873673 >>713875168

China and Korea especially liked Starcraft so why haven't they made anime RTS?
There are anime TBS/tactics that are quite successful, so why not RTS?
Anime would save RTS.

>>713913593
Global Conflagration demo showcased some catch-up mechanics.

>>713915004
Polanie had milk.

>>713913310
amazing, you managed to prove yourself wrong by making an illogical statement

>>713916618
I don't want blue shells in any RTS

>>713916459
RTS playerbase are fags who don't like having women in their games, especially of the Chinese cartoon variety. Weebs prefer straightforward 'press X to awesome' games, without having to do chores like base building, worker management, scouting, raiding, all at the same time. It's not going to work out.

>>713916459
Are you suggesting that Senran Kagura or Taimanin should have RTS spin offs?

This thread is about dead, but here is the reason why RTS has been on the decline:

TIME COMMITMENT OUTSIDE OF PLAYING THE GAME

Just like fighting games (and the 'tech'/frame data trend), there's a skill barrier to entry before you can hit any reasonable challenge to have fun. But unlike other genres of multi-player gaming, it's really fucking hard to get more competitive without resorting to online help or technical information not in the game. There is, for all intents and purposes, a technically perfect way of playing a situation (a build order) that you cannot counter unless you can recognize it and counter it with another prepared build order. With 1 YouTube video, your opponent can force you to play their game plan for 20+ minutes because you didn't watch another YouTube video showing how to counter it.

Nowadays RTS games aren't so much playing your own strategy as it is practicing someone else's strategy and trying not to fuck it up. It's basically a genre where the person who makes the least amount of mistakes wins.

>>713916928
what about rubberbanding
would be extremely funny if rts compfags would start to optimize their play, doing no scouting only building the bare minimum, eyes glued to the point counter, until the booming phase is over.

Since the thread is almost over I give you the real answer.
>No controller support no console support.
That's it, all the other issues are secondary.

>>713918260
we've had console RTSes

>>713917617
Asians are more autistic than westerners and many weebs in general like that stuff with complex systems, you shouldn't make it an APM-fest too fast for normies, then it would be a success.
Even gachas - which are inherently for causal phone players - embraced TBS/tactics gameplay and made it successful with anime girls.

If any devs are reading this thread - jump on the anime train and you will make way more than from yet another generic scifi/military setting.