I've only just now finished Clair Obscur and went back to look at discussions on the ending, but it seems like a great many of them are bogged down by some retarded 'real vs fake' debate where people equate the lives of the people of Lumiere to some ChatGPT equivalent.

The people of Lumiere are so obviously real in the context of the game's universe. Are retarded faggots still trying to argue otherwise two months after release?

>>714478107 (OP)
this is the bed you faggots get to lie in after doing the same thing to xenoblade 3.

>>714478263
I didn't do shit to Xenoblade 3 mate I only bought this game a week ago

Hello, OP, welcome to the party even if you're late. I will now be telling you the many ways in which Versofags try to muddy the waters to pretend that Maelle's ending is worse.

>>714480438
First off, there is the emotional manipulation.
>Maelle is evil!
>Verso doesn't deserve to suffer
>Look at the poor boy painting, you really want to force him to keep painting?
>Look at the ending, Verso is sad and Maelle is dying! YOU DID THIS
This is the first step. Basically, they try to deflect away from pic related. All the people whose existence ceases to be if you go with Verso's ending.

>>714480636
The second step of the Versofags repertoire is, of course, what you mentioned.
>BUT THEY AREN'T REAL!
There are always many attempts at philosophizing what is real existence and what is fake existence and try to diminish the obvious cognition that the painted people in the game possess. Anything to try to make them non-human so that Verso's ending looks more justified.

>>714478107 (OP)
>bogged down by some retarded 'real vs fake' debate

Eh, it's much more than that, but Verso's end if heavily preferred.

>>714478107 (OP)
Yeah, anons are too quick to go through the argument of "if an ai thinks it is real, turning it off isn't murder".
But they fail to recognise that's a complete aside.
If nothing else, you're looking at the ai from the outside. This game has you look from the inside perspective.
The actual equivalent argument would be "if god came down and said this world was his kid's Sims game and he's going to turn it off now, would you be okay with that?"
To which the obvious and only answer is no.

Anyone who fails to recognise this is so inhuman they're willing to forget literally everything they've experienced and their own humanity because of one statement. They're also liars. They literally would not be okay with god making that statement unless they're suicidal and selfish, in which case their emotions get in the way of objective reasoning.
Then they'll make the faulty argument we're the emotional ones, because they can't recognise reality. And they'll make the argument we can't, too, for the same reason.
Tl;Dr versofags are fucking stupid and liars at that

>>714480742
But the Versofag is a trickster, much like good old Verso himself. Like character, like fans.
When you expose them for their bloviating and sophistry, they reveal the deepest and most cruel of lies: The lie that Maelle isn't bringing anyone back.
There are many angles which they use to try to focus on this:
>Look, the developers didn't model a reconstructed opera house. That means Maelle is evil and not reconstructing it.
>Don't you think the ending looks a bit TOO happy? And Gustave doesn't even say anything? He's probably a clone!
>Maelle brought those expeditioners back like a necromancer. They looked creepy, didn't they? See?! Maelle isn't really bringing anyone back.
>Well, the people already got gommaged. How is Maelle bringing them back? She isn't. She's just creating new people that share their memories.
This last one is particularly nasty. However, fortunately, the events of the game disprove this cruel headcanon. For you see, Sciel and Lune get gommaged away. But then they still get brought back. And they share full memories and continuity with their previous selves that Maelle could not possibly reproduce.

Now, with all their lies defeated, the Versofag skulks back into the shadows. Remember to always tell Versofags to play the piano.

No, retard. They are real, but it doesn't matter. The life of Alicia and the Dessendre family are more important than the lives within the Canvas. It is what it is. The game spells it all out for you and you live in a faggot fantasy if you aren't capable of seeing this. There's no debate to be had. Functional, non-retards will be able to easily pick apart which path is the one that makes sense, and it's Verso's ending whereas people who think themselves in circles will pick Maelle's ending.

>>714481354
>Erm, yeah, this entire city of people living in it? You're just not that important compared to the family drama of your gods. Go away and die now, sweeties.

>>714481154
>>714480742
>>714480636
I acknowledge all points and still the cycle must still break. A prolonged death is still death and saving Maelle saves the countless lives she can create in the future with her powers instead of dying with those she cant save.

>>714478107 (OP)
This is how I know the game is for psueds. No one talks about individual moments in the game or particular battles or locations, the ONLY discussion (that's not waifu-baiting) is about the stupid fucking meaningless choice at the very end of the game.

>>714481682
All of us are living a prolonged death. A prolonged death is just a life.

>>714481354
I painted your mother's womb with my sperm and I've deemed your life to no longer be important. Please kill yourself.

>gay FFTA for zoomers and fr*nchmen
grim

>>714478107 (OP)
I think I picked Maelle's ending out of sheer spite, because I felt Verso's ending was just stupidly naive.
The family learned nothing, haven't processed any grief, Alicia (who I realy grew to like) is still fucked in the real world and all the people I cared about are dead. But the game tells me it'll be fine.
No, fuck off, I am not that naive to believe this pathological family will get their shit together.

>>714481775
Let me be the change you want to see in the world, anon.

For me, it's Flying Waters.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LAQZfeETFbg&t=5058s

>>714481819
is that you, anon? show us your hand

>>714478107 (OP)
lol
lmao
This gens Bioshock Infinite, a bog standard story, told fucking countless times before being elevated to "da best thang ever" because it's somewhat well presented.

>>714482018
>le boogeyman
Shut up, retard.

>>714478107 (OP)
There's no right or wrong option. One is genocide, but the other is like plugging yourself into a virtual world till you die.

You either keep Maelle happy and Lumiere in tact, Verso miserable and Alicia's family basically mourning the loss of another child.

The other a whole world dies, and Alicia very slowly starts to reconnect with her family.

>>714482067
No, unlike with Bioshock Infinite, E33's story isn't very pretentious. It's actually refreshingly simple and to the point.

>>714482139
Lumiere is fucked either way. The choice is to allow Maelle die with it or not.

>>714482139
>Alicia's family basically mourning the loss of another child.
To be fair, I don't feel particularly sorry for them. They really were awful towards her after the accident, so they deserve it.

maellefags in a nutshell

>>714482257
Yet another Versofag lie
Why are they like this?

>>714482348
The obvious difference being that when you destroy the Matrix, you wake everyone up.
Whereas with Lumiere, when you destroy Lumiere, you kill everyone but Maelle. Only Maelle gets to wake up.
With that said, that guy was right.

>>714478107 (OP)
>villains whose motives are hard to find fault in and arguably better than the heroes

>>714482424
>Only Maelle gets to wake up.
And the kicker is that Maelle doesn't want to wake up, because her real life is so fucking awful she would rather stay in the Matrix.

>>714482521
>brainlets think he did nothing wrong
>truly enlightened people understand he's a fuckup that created this whole mess in the first place

>>714482548
That's why you forcefully drag her away like the stupid teenager junkie she is
>Verso would have never wanted to erase his canvas
Oh yes he did you conceited bitch who only cares about herself.

>>714482658
>son dies
>wife immediately runs away, makes a fake family and pretty much becomes demented inside the canvas waiting for her own death
>so addicted she was back five irl minutes after being kicked out
>he's to blame for going in to save her
Renoir was so right about his family it's not even funny, Aline agrees in verso's ending.

>>714482658
>fails to understand babys first writing class
All this shit game proves is that "gayming" is plagued by genuine fucking midwits opulling everyone with just average intellect down to their level. Yes, (you).

>>714482686
>That's why you forcefully drag her away like the stupid teenager junkie she is
And don't be surprised if she then kills herself the second you leave her unattended. Renoir trying to bruteforce the matter was literally the worst thing he could've done.

>>714481129
>game narrative clearly followed Verso and Alicia perspective (one knew the ultimate truth and the other who slowly realized she is the god)
>but le hecking Lumierians whom we spent like 20 mins at the start with
This is like it was revealed that everything around you is a simulation and you got the power to change anything as you will, and your choice with it
If it is like you said you cant even fight back like 99% of the thanos’ed Lumierian, there is no choice for you to stay or to get out of the canvas
You could only sympathize with them, at best

>>714482869
Aline had it FAR worse and she was fine, Alicia is just being a whiny teen.

>>714482139
The whole world is dead and doesn't function without the torture of Verso's soul. The Paintress wasn't the underlying issue. It was the boy painter you see at the end who was having to paint EVERYTHING constantly who was under real torture. All the Paintress was do was doing was layering her power ontop of his, increasing his suffering as there was nothing to do but continue the story/world.
That's why the father was focusing on ending everything so his son's soul could literally rest in peace because without it, noone would exist at all anyway and the whole argument is "would this world exist without Verso's torture in the first place?" in which case if he'd died without painting it, it wouldn't.
It sucks to be Maelle but she's literally opting to make Verso's soul suffer for longer to appease her own desires (lolwomen) vs returning to normality and accepting none of it really existed outside the art.

>>714482803
Maybe he was right, but his method solved fuck all, because it wasn't even adressing the real issue.
And Alicia isn't Aline, she has different problems than her.

>>714482941
>Aline had it FAR worse and she was fine
Since when Aline is a disfigured, half-blind cripple that can't talk?
No, anon, in real life, Alicia's fucked.

>>714482969
Alicia's issue was 90%
>verso is dead and I'm partially to blame!
And the scars are basically window dressing to that.
She instead of trying to rely on her dad, decided to lock herself up and not help anyone either.

Alicia fags are soooo self centered it is not even funny, just like her character
It is always me me me oh muh pain muh suffering, i want this stupid shit urgh leave me alone! While there are many characters actively trying to get her better

>>714483081
Aline spent over a hundred years as a borderline denentia patient and her fake family she spent all her time with was obliterated.
And she doesn't hold it against Renoir, Alicia would rather torture her brother and his soul that deal with her shit, which is indefensible.

>>714483140
it's cool because if you swap Alicia with Verso this post still makes just as much sense

>>714483246
And Verso still decides to out her before his suffering throughout act 3.
Shame she went fullretard.

>>714483130
No, it wasn't. Versofags just latch onto this argument so that they think they are morally superior.
>She instead of trying to rely on her dad, decided to lock herself up and not help anyone either.
She TRIED to rely on her dad, but then he told her:
>find yourself something to do, I dunno
And left to do the canvas thing, so what was she supposed to do?

Why doesn't she just leave and paint her own perfect canvas with all her friends alive?

I just didn't want Lune, Sciel and Monoco to die. They're completely blameless in any of the family drama, why make them suffer because of it?

>>714478107 (OP)
That's something I appreciated. The game never poses the question of whether the painted people are real or not (I think Renoir has a couple lines but the focus is clearly not on that)

>>714483327
>She TRIED to rely on her dad, but then he told her:
He calls her a living ghost
>No, it wasn't. Versofags just latch onto this argument so that they think they are morally superior
Meanwhile, Alicia in his ending
>DON'T LEAVE ME AGAIN
meanwhile Alicia in HER ending
>I just wanted to live this lifetime together
Once the gig is up, she's just unable to deal with it.

>>714483431
Because that solves nothing. Renoir's entire thing is "escapism bad". You can't then tell Alicia "just paint yourself a new canvas, lol". It makes Renoir look stupid.

>>714483445
Monoco agrees.
Sciel understands.
Who cares about Lune's opinion, she's basically the only remaining living being who disagrees.

>>714483445
They can't suffer if they don't exist anymore

>>714483585
And you keep conveniently dismissing all those times Alicia says she doesn't want to return to her wrecked body.
You do realize she can have multiple motivations, right?

>>714483327
>no it wasn't
Yes it was. Renoir was 100% right about his family on every level. The mother lost her son and went into the painting to recreate him, not caring that her son was literally being tortured endlessly to do so. Maelle went in to escape reality because she was a sufferer of the fire and horrifically maimed while her family was busy trying to do damage control so couldn't involve themselves with her, which is why she used the painting to escape reality and was addicted. She didn't care the real Verso's soul was literally being tortured for eternity.
>she TRIED
No she didn't. She went in and got addicted to the painting, losing her literal memory by accepting the escapism provided by being in the world. She quite literally didn't rely on Renoir.
>what was she supposed to do?
Not go into the canvas? Not get addicted to it? Accept the canvas' existence was basically torturing her own brother for eternity? Accept reality was shit? Create her own canvas and escape into it since she was a painter herself rather than torture her brother?
Plenty of things she could do.

>>714483791
Is Verso's soul being tortured forever in her ending? I thought they came to a compromise with Maelle's 'would you be happy if you could grow old?' Cut to the theater scene where Maelle is escorting a smiling kid Verso to the opera house.

>>714483791
>Maelle went in to escape reality because she was a sufferer of the fire and horrifically maimed while her family was busy trying to do damage control so couldn't involve themselves with her, which is why she used the painting to escape reality and was addicted

That was not her intention. Her being painted over was an accident. and she didn't regain her memories until after Act 2

>>714483589
Renoir's thing was his wife was stuck in a painting his son made and his retarded daughter got addicted to it as well, meaning 2/3rd of his family were dying as vegetables over a non-real world that was powered by the torture of his dead son's soul, who couldn't rest in peace while the canvas existed.
His wife and daughter were literally torturing Verso's soul endlessly to appease their own realities and didn't care they were doing it just to escape the reality that their kin had died.

You just hate women

>>714478107 (OP)
I only recently beat the game, so I'm new to the discussion, but there are seriously people who think the inhabitants of the canvas world aren't real?

>>714478107 (OP)
>The opinion of a whiny teenager is more important important than the desire of the trapped soul of the actual canvas painter.
>painted people (whose entire characteristics and abilities are determined by the painter) are literal equivalents to real world people despite the fact their "freewill" could be removed within a second.
>Trapping these people with an emotionally unstable and unskilled paintress is a good thing (didn't even fix Lumiere but leaves it fractured)

Absolute brain-dead take.

Thank fuck this story is a fairytale where everything magically turned out EXACTLY how the devs wanted. Because in reality Verso's ending would've resulted in Alicia commiting suicide and Aline filing for divorce.

>>714484462
>Alicia commiting suicide

As opposed to Maelle's ending, where she would have committed prolonged suicide

>>714484252
>>>The opinion of a whiny teenager is more important important than the desire of the trapped soul of the actual canvas painter.
So what's the deal with Maelle escorting a clearly happy child Verso in her ending?
>>>painted people (whose entire characteristics and abilities are determined by the painter)
Generations of people have lived and died in Lumiere. There's so many personal stories that have unfolded there that making this kind of statement is profoundly retarded. They have clearly taken on lives of their own that has stemmed out from Verso's initial brushstrokes.

>>714484536
Well yes, that's the point. She's fucked either way. We might as well let her die happy.
>b-but she can just paint herself a new canvas?
And what is a guarantee she'll ever return from THAT canvas if she literally has no will to live? In the real world that is.

>>714478107 (OP)
>They're real and I don't care

Aliciatards are gonna be the ones who will be campaigning for the civil liberties of AI androids

Can't painted people literally have children completely outside of the painter's control? Those people, by definition, are not really the painter's sole creation.

>>714484767
People can grow, change and learn from their mistakes

>>714484864
We don't know. The painter in the Canvas was Verso's soul, and we never really get to communicated with it, so we don't know if he individually made everyone or not

>>714484462
Alicia still has the Esquie plushy. She'll be fine.
I want to rip that plushy away from her and throw it in a lake. I don't know why.

>>714482018
>ChatGPT's knowledge cutoff.

Doesn't ChatGPT literally google shit these days?

>>714484883
Sure, she can process Verso's death million times in a row. She's still a disfigured cripple that might die from a respiratory infection. Her life is fucked, no matter how positive she might be about her chances.

>>714484974
>these days

it always did that

>>714484642
>So what's the deal with Maelle escorting a clearly happy child Verso in her ending?

LMFAO you retard. That's one of Gustave's apprentices. Facial blindness?

>Generations of people have lived and died in Lumiere. There's so many personal stories that have unfolded there that making this kind of statement is profoundly retarded. They have clearly taken on lives of their own that has stemmed out from Verso's initial brushstrokes.

Alicia does not have the same ability her family has. Also, Aline painted the people of Lumiere. The gestrals, grandis, and Esquie are the creations of child Verso.

E33 continues to expose people's poor media literacy.

>>714484856
and they'd be justified

>>714485028
Plenty of disfigured cripples go on to live fulfilling lives, and those dont even have cool magical painter powers or a rich and powerful family like Alicia

>>714482686
>Verso would have never wanted to erase his canvas says girl who is alive because Verso sacrificed himself for her.

God teenagers are dumb

>>714484767
Because she'll grow up and learn to move on from the grief.
I swear Maellefags are literal emo teenagers who think they'll feel the way they do in sophomore year high school as they would for the rest of her life.
Not old enough to get a tattoo but apparently old enough to decide that slow suicide is her best life option.
You people are as mentally unstable as she is depicted in her ending.

>>714478107 (OP)
Astroturfed game.

>>714485109
Have you ever checked the burn victim suicide rates? It's horryifing.

>>714485226
true, the actual gameplay is just fucking parry everything and stack as much offensive damage as humanly possible, you don't need any other strategy even on the hardest difficulty. Still, I found the story kinda interesting despite how aggressively shilled the game was.

>>714484252
>painted people (whose entire characteristics and abilities are determined by the painter)

Other than the painted Dessendre's, not a single inhabitant of Lumiere was directly painted by Aline.

>>714485253
Okay? How does that change what I said? Most of them move on with their lives

Reminder that Aline painted the people of Lumiere and the Gommage literally only exists because her powers are waning from A) being in the canvas too long and B) Renoir and Clea cucking her out of chroma returning back to her.

Alicia, who does not have nearly the same power as Aline, Renoir, or Clea, will not be able to maintain what Aline did, which is why her ending is full of barely sentient puppets in a still-destroyed Lumiere. How long does she keep this up? They're even more hollow husks than before. Alicia's version of Lumiere will die a miserable death as she dies alongside it.

Disagree? Talk to the wall. Or just play the game again and actually pay attention this time.

>>714485380
Yeah because Aline isn't the one painting the Canvas, Child Verso is

The people of the painting are unknowingly parasites whose finite lives come at the cost of Verso's infinite suffering and erasing them from existence to free him is a good thing.

>>714485380
>not a single inhabitant of Lumiere was directly painted by Aline.

Yeah no. Look it up. You're wrong.

>Yes, according to the game's lore, Aline Dessendre painted all the human characters in Lumiere. She created Lumiere and its inhabitants after entering Verso's canvas following his death. This includes Verso himself, as well as Alicia, and other members of her painted family. Before Aline's arrival, the canvas only contained Verso's original creations, like the Gestrals, Grandis, and Esquie.

>>714485392
Yeah, and about 45% of them kill themselves.
That's why E33 threads died. You can't argue with circular logic.

>>714482894
>>but le hecking Lumierians whom we spent like 20 mins at the start with
Retard. You need more than 20 minutes to realize the implications of their lives and wills? Plus, Gustave, Maelle, Lune and Sciel are clear extensions of it.

>>714482956
>le soul was getting tortured
And here we get another Versofag deflection
Verso's soul piece is not a sentient being with free will, unlike the painted beings.

>>714478107 (OP)
>The people of Lumiere are so obviously real in the context of the game's universe. Are retarded faggots still trying to argue otherwise two months after release?
No, it's unironically asmongoloid drones. The "chatgpt bots" interpretation (they meant philosophical zombies, but don't know what that means) came from that story skipping low IQ nigger and half the board didn't play the game, just watched him.

>>714483140
The absolute irony.
I pick Maelle's ending for the sake of everyone in Lumiere. You pick Verso's ending for the sake of like 4 people at most.

>>714483431
Well, I don't know why Alicia doesn't do that, but I know why that wouldn't satisfy me: Because it'd still mean that the Lumiere we see gets wiped out.

It really comes down to this:

Are you an immature idealist running away from your problems
or
Are you an adult living in reality

>I loved them too.
If you go Verso after that to give the demiurges what they want you NEED to be killed.
Even if the "good route" doesn't exist, I'd go any route that maximizes the suffering of these retards.

>>714483706
Least serial killing sounding Versofag

>>714483876
"muh verso's soul" is retarded bullshit by versofags to try to deflect, but no, that's not verso's soul. that is just one of the apprentices.

>>714485040
>Alicia does not have the same ability her family has
More Versofag headcanon
Sciel and Lune in Act 3 prove you wrong :)

>>714485460
Lumiere and the people living in it were creations of Aline

>>714485535
Anon the fracture happened 67 years before the story began. No one other than the painted Dessendres were alive in a pre-fracture Lumiere
These people are at least 2nd/3rd generation which means they weren't directly created but born.

>>714484864
Yes, they can
>>714484942
Classic Versofag trying to muddy the waters

>>714485535
Current Lumierians weren't made by Aline because she can't even protect them from being erased, they're born from fucking and pregnancy with the same rules as our world.

>>714484864
>Can't painted people literally have children completely outside of the painter's control?
Yes.
We know that lore exists/existed about Gustave's family and that he came from an esteemed clan in Lumiere, so they have marriages and children on their own. Sophie was scolded for choosing not to have kids if you remember.

>>714485452
>and the Gommage literally only exists because her powers are waning
The gommage literally only exists cause of Renoir, Versofag. Quit lying.

>>714485040
>Facial blindness?
Those apprentices had two cutscenes in the entire game, I just didn't recognize him.
>Also, Aline painted the people of Lumiere. The gestrals, grandis, and Esquie are the creations of child Verso.
This made me review all the lines from the Fading Apparitions of the Dessendre family because for most my playthrough I didn't play attention to them. Verso's soul himself says that paintings are to be cherished, that the people inside of them have souls, and it seems that most of his suffering seems to stem from the shit Clea painted into the Canvas and their family drama. With Renoir and Aline finally expelled from the Canvas and Clea's Nevrons being slayed, how exactly would he be feeling now?

It really comes down to this:

Do you care about some random family?

Or an entire world?

>dude Maelle ending is le bad, they aren't real
>but pVerso's viewpoint is valid o algo

Having said that, despite Verso being a comically manipulative faggot, I still find it hard to be angry at him because he's in an unbearable situation (immortal, cursed with the real Verso's memories and emotions, particularly the love for his mother). Really everyone in the "antagonist" roles has perfectly valid reasons.
Only Clea is a near-irredeemable cunt if you think a bit about the sheer horror for the painting lifeforms brought about by Nevrons.

>>714482139
>Alicia's family basically mourning the loss of another child
Doubt they'd take it that hard. Clea wouldn't care much because Alicia wouldn't be of use in her own escapism method (fighting with writers), Aline definitely blames her for what happend to Verso, only Renoir would suffer but I think he'd eventually get over it.

>>714485858
It sucks, doesn't it?

>>714485994
She doesn't have the same power. This is stated directly. She IS a painter but she is nowhere near's powerful as the rest of the family. You fucking idiot. Die.

I'm so tired of arguing with people on this board who don't know what the fuck they're talking about.

>>714486276
I care about Alicia.
And she doesn't deserve her sociopathic family.

>>714486326
I genuinely don’t know why Clea is such a bitch when everyone else in the family is reasonable (albiet troubled).

>>714486604
Making shit up: the post

>>714486257
Fucking tired of painting the damn canvas, by his own admission.

>>714486604
Sciel and Lune were brought back from the gommage. They are the same person. There is clear continuity between them. Alicia's power is good enough to bring people back. Stop trying to run away from the fact that when you choose Verso's ending, you willingly choose to kill people that could be saved.

>>714478107 (OP)
Eventually Verso ending will come regardless, even if Maelle is lying and have no intention of going back she will grow weak and someone will drag her out.
That faggot verso could not endure just a bit longer? what an ugly piece of shit

>>714486629
>says this when Alicia is even worse
What she does to verso and his soul is worse than anything her family did, because she says she loves him.

>>714486773
He's not a sentient being with free will, unlike the painted people. The painted people clearly matter more even without taking into account the fact there's far more of them.

Has anyone played this on a lower end PC? Is it decently optimised?

>>714486789
Alicia is a mediocre Paintress. She’s nowhere near as good as her mother in that regard. It took most of her energy to bring Sciel and Lune back. Plus, her gommage ability in gameplay isn’t a one shot without some very specific set-up.

>>714482018
OH NO NO NO

>>714486694
Nobody in this family is reasonable, that's the point:
>Aline: stuck up and demanding, breaks down the second a tragedy strucks
>Renoir: "my way or highway" control freak who doesn't respect other people's points of view
>Clea: a sociopath with no empathy
>Verso: implied to be depressed
>Alicia: a shut-in NEET who can't connect with her family

>>714486879
My girlfriend played it on a shitty chink laptop without a GPU by using that mod on Nexus that optimizes the engine.
The hair will look like sand though

>>714486879
Define lower-end. It runs alright on my laptop with RTX 2060.

>>714486932
>It took most of her energy to bring Sciel and Lune back
Complete headcanon.
Why do Versofags always do this shit to try to justify their ending? Why can't they just accept that the whole premise of the choice is choosing between genocide and Verso's peace + Dessendre family?

>>714487061
>>714487018
thanks anons, just wondering if i should take the risk

>>714487117
>Why can't they just accept that the whole premise of the choice is choosing between genocide and Verso's peace + Dessendre family?
Cowardice probably. Renoir (real) accepted what he was doing was horrific (destroying the world) and he apologized for it, he just found it necessary to save his family. To a lower scale the same with Painted Renoir and having to kill Expeditioners to prevent them from fighting against their interests, despite wanting their good.

>>714478107 (OP)
>Are retarded faggots still trying to argue otherwise two months after release?
French people are functional sociopaths so they think there Is a complex moral quandary there.

>>714485998
The game literally states that Aline entered Verso's canvas and began painting the entirety of Lumiere (Old Lumiere) and all of its inhabitants. The original inhabitants of "The Continent" were only the gestrals, the grandis, Esquie, Francois, and a few nevrons created by Clea to mess with Verso. The Fracture happens as a result of Renoir entering the canvas trying to pull Aline out of it, and their battle is why Lumiere in-game is the way it is.

This is literally all explained to the player in very direct terms. You can look it the fuck up if you want to.

>>714486165
Another retard. I know it's Renoir. But the monolith countdown is literally because her power is waning and she can't keep all of them alive on her own without her chroma returning to her, which is because of Clea and Renoir. This is stated verbatim in the game.

>>714486103
There's nothing that states they aren't made by Aline. This is headcanon on your part. When real world Alicia enters the canvas it is literally stated by Clean that Aline is painting over her and inserting her into the world as a baby, which would be named Maelle. The citizens of Lumiere are literally all painted by Aline, from birth to death. And as her power wanes, she needs to spend less chroma painting them, knowing that Renoir is going to keep erasing them bit by bit. It is literally stated that this is why she starts The Monolith Calendar, as a warning.

>>714486257
>With Renoir and Aline finally expelled from the Canvas and Clea's Nevrons being slayed, how exactly would he be feeling now?
Irrelevant, as it's head canon conjecture that isn't conveyed at all in the game so it's meaningless to speculate.

>>714486694
Clea has had to deal with her retarded sister for years. That would make anyone lose it.

>>714486707
IT'S IN THE FUCKING GAME, MORON.
>>714486789
Fuck off and kill yourself retard. Pay attention next time when you play the game.

>you willingly choose to kill people that could be saved.

Boohoo you fucking whiny bitch.

>>714487452
>IT'S TOTALLY IN THE GAME GUYS JUST IGNORE THAT I CAN'T POST PROOF OF IT
Making shit up: the response

God aliciafags are on the high today huh
>muh genocide
The final choice was presented from the pov of the painters aka god like being of the canvas
And, with that pov, the painted people are no better than npcs in a advanced sim game. Exactly like how those npcs cant get out of the screen (the canvas) to strangle you, no matter how real they seem to you.

>>714486694
Clea is the only responsible and pragmatic one in the family. In the real world they're fighting for their lives and Aline is failing as both a mother and as the leader of The Painters Association. Clea is the only one trying to put duty first.

>>714480636
No shit there, of course there is. Why wouldnt there be? They are setting scenes up to invoke a specific emotion in the player. It just feels so dumb to say that.

>>714478107 (OP)
>bogged down by some retarded 'real vs fake' debate where people equate the lives of the people of Lumiere to some ChatGPT equivalent
What other debate could there possibly be? The drama of one French family vs the gommage of a universe? The question of whether or not it's justified to genocide an entire continent to protect the wellbeing of one of its masters? The dilemma at the end is entirely trivial if you take the Lumierans' personhood as granted. There is simply no discussion to be had there, Maelle is in the right from an ethical standpoint. There being any sort of moral quandary to the game depends entirely on the consideration of whether or not The Continent and its inhabitants are real, Verso and Renoir do not have a moral pot to piss in otherwise. There's a reason the story draws parallels to video game escapism and questions the gamer on whether or not they should really become attached to imaginary characters or if they have to accept that their real life comes first.

>>714487341
None of what you said contradicts the fact that the people that Aline painted are able to birth people through normal human reproduction

None of what you said contradicts the fact that if it weren't for Renoir and Clea, these people would be allowed to live much longer. Decades to centuries. Which is what happens in Maelle's ending

You are ignoring that Maelle's storyline is that she was explicitly a surprise child that was not expected. She was inserted into the whole through different means. Otherwise, her birth wouldn't be noteworthy.

Keep being mad all you want. Maelle ending choosers didn't want to commit genocide. You committed genocide. Simple as.

>>714481775
Because its a story game and the ending is the grand finale

>>714487341
>Irrelevant, as it's head canon conjecture that isn't conveyed at all in the game so it's meaningless to speculate.
I think it's perfectly conveyed by the numerous lines that relate the young boy's sufferings to the Nevrons and the quest lines tied to easing his burden by destroying the worst of Clea's creations

>>714487579
>The final choice was presented from the pov of the painters aka god like being of the canvas
So?
>And, with that pov, the painted people are no better than npcs in a advanced sim game
So?

How does this justify the genocide of these "NPCs"'s? lol
Versofags are deranged.

>>714487587
>Clea is the only responsible and pragmatic one in the family.
She's not responsible, she's running away from a problem as well. It would literally be more efficient for her to just help Renoir solve the issue here and there, but instead she does bare minimum while bitching how she's the smart one and everybody else is a retard.

>>714486604
You two are arguing two different definitions of power. You're talking about power as relative strength and the other anon is talking about power as a specific ability.

>>714486789
I want to point out that she was specifically shown as seeing their Chroma floating around and was able to resurrect them perfectly because of it.

I don't think we have any proof either way whether the other Lumerians she resurrected were recreations of the original or direct resurrections like Sciel and Lune.

>>714487341
>The game literally states that Aline entered Verso's canvas and began painting the entirety of Lumiere (Old Lumiere) and all of its inhabitants. The original inhabitants of "The Continent" were only the gestrals, the grandis, Esquie, Francois, and a few nevrons created by Clea to mess with Verso. The Fracture happens as a result of Renoir entering the canvas trying to pull Aline out of it, and their battle is why Lumiere in-game is the way it is.

>This is literally all explained to the player in very direct terms. You can look it the fuck up if you want to.

That's great anon. That still doesn't change the fact that it's 60 some years later and that everyone Aline has painted has already died either a natural death or has been gommage'd and that the current inhabitants of Lumiere have all been born and not painted.
Try reading the words I'm typing before you reply this time.

>>714487452
It's literally stated by Clea in the real world after Act II that Alicia is nowhere near as powerful as the rest of the family. Even Alicia herself admits it when you look at some of the family paintings.

You double digit IQ piece of fucking shit.

>>714482018
Wow that explains a lot. That explains why it is always the graphically demanding pc games that seems to trigger this. Thank you anon, nice work

>>714487694
It is interesting, though, that no character in the game ever puts into question whether these people are real or not.
The closest we have is that Clea straight up paints over them for shits and giggles, but that could just be her being a bitch and feeling like god. It doesn't necessarily mean she thinks the people are fake.

>>714487827
Npcs arent real people, simple as that
You did these ‘genocides’ all the time when you deleted a save game, a whole ‘reality’ you retarded

>>714482082
Just because you dont believe in the boogeyman, doesn't make him not real

>>714487563
It's literally stated by Clea in the real world after Act II that Alicia is nowhere near as powerful as the rest of the family. Even Alicia herself admits it when you look at some of the family paintings.

You double digit IQ piece of shit.

Real Verso died in the real world to save his sister, the stupid retard that opened the doors of the family house to legendary rivals and enemies.
Copy Verso is willing to die in the copy world to save his sister, again, from her own retardedness and cowardice. Even if that means destroying all his art and creations as well. Maelle insists on living a fantasy to the point of fighting and subduing the people that love her and want what is best for her.
>Verso fags are delusional, Maelle my cutie pie, eternal goddess, oh you poor thing, all good things for you my darling.

>>714487910
>I don't think we have any proof either way whether the other Lumerians she resurrected were recreations of the original or direct resurrections like Sciel and Lune.
There's no reason to assume they aren't direct resurrections beyond not wanting them to be direct resurrections to try to justify the Verso ending. Why would the gommage mechanics be any different? Because time passed? She can no longer reform those people? This isn't mentioned at all in the game. It's pure speculation.

>>714481775
Maybe because they wrote the game in such a way that the final act completely undermines and trivializes the preceding two. I say this as somebody who loved the game, and the ending, and who does view the painting as a real world. But the twist brought with it an unshakable feeling that none of the world or characters we had grown endeared to until now were entirely unimportant in every way besides the impression they had on Maelle.

>>714484864
Going based on Maelle entering the painting and being born, id aay that someone gets pregnant when a new person is painted

>>714487827
Are you saying that If I boot up GTA right now and I murder a civilian on the street...I'm evil and guilty of murder for real?

>>714487997
That's a stupid comparison because the game presents these people as having free will and their own active lives that we don't get to see, and it not just being a backstory some writer is writing about them.
This is more akin to birthing people than coding everything they do.

Aliciafags are incapable of arguing about this without coming across as such whiny emotional hyperbolic bitches.

>muh genocide
>you killed them!!
Oh my fucking god you emotional women, it's a video game.

>>714488153
See: >>714488205

>>714487910
When Alicia enters the painting, its mentioned that Aline paints over her and thus she is born into the world like any other lumerian. This implies that births are being painted somewhat.

>>714487000
In defense of renoir, he's trying to prevent two familiar members deaths. Both family members are directly engaged with the thing that will kill them . The only way to stop that is by kicking them out ofnthe paining
>control freak

>>714488310
So is the implication that in between the time Aline died and Renoir did the gommage, no one could be born? I don't buy it.

>>714488205
> game presents these people as having free will and their own active lives that we don't get to see,
As i said, advance simulation, a sandbox, or AI gen, whatever you want to call it these day, even 20 years old game like dwarf fort could archive this

>>714488413
Ok, but we're talking such an advanced form of simulation that they have lives that are basically indistinguishable from our own.
At the end of the day, it seems like what you're arguing is that these people don't have a conscience. And there's nothing in the game that indicates that. Neither Renoir nor Painted Verso themselves say that at any point.

>>714487927
>>714488020
You're autistic. Clea going
>you're weak and not useful, fuck you
As a spiteful response for Alicia's involvement in Verso's death is not an actual indication of ability or potential.

>>714488523
Ok, well you can take Renoir's word for it as he says the same thing about Alicia's lesser power. Also you conveniently ignore that Alicia herself admits it as well.

Burn painting vs. keep painting around is a real debate, however within the context of the game no one can defend Alicia specifically because she is a retarded shithead. The question of whether you consider the painted people real doesn't matter even to the person who picks that ending in-universe, she just wants NPCs that make her feel good

>>714488340
And by doing so, he's making things worse, because he's not even considering their points of view, he just thinks HE knows best.
And it hilariously backfires in both cases, when both Aline and Alicia just get fed up with him and try to kick him out of the painting. If it wasn't for Verso, he wouldn't have gotten shit done with his approach. And if you don't pick Verso's ending, he in fact doesn't.

>>714487961
There are clearly some thematic inconsistencies that I feel the writers overlooked. The fact that we're supposed to feel sympathy for Verso in Maelle's ending is another testament to the fact that the painted people are real, but then as I said, how could you give the wellbeing of one family any moral weight whatsoever over the lives of an entire world if that's a given? I'm not knocking the game, I loved it start to finish, but the writing definitely has its holes.

>>714488510
Now we will get to the part if these advance npcs could be considered ‘human’, having the same right as us? Do you really think most of us would give them such privilege?

If you agree with Alicia, it generally means you're probably on the younger side and have some growing up to do. Thusly, I don't really take your opinion seriously.

>>714478107 (OP)
they're real
but the twist kind of distracts from the larger narrative and turns it into a "muh trauma" thing that western writers can't keep themselves from falling into
before act 3 it was a great game, not perfect but great
and it could have incorporated the twist in an interesting way
but instead if just drops Lumiere entirely and starts focusing on vague family problems with no real ending
the real world sucks enough
I don't need my entertainment to mimic it

>>714488753

>>714488663
You're 100% correct but Aliciafags don't see this as a problem, as they would do the same thing because they're also immature little self-centered shits.

>>714488679
I think the choice is simple and Versofags just try to complicate it

>Aline created this whole world to hide away her troubles. Painted Verso is suffering and wants to die and Maelle seemingly won't let him. Maelle is using escapism to run away from her real life.
>Is solving the above issues worth destroying the world that we've come to know in the game?

That's it.

But Versofags don't want to accept that this is the dilemma. They want to pretend that the world can't be saved or some shit like that. Or that the people aren't real. So on and so forth.

>>714488663
>>714488896
I picked Alicia's ending for the sake of the people in the painting.
In truth, I think Verso's ending is the best ending for Alicia, and the best ending for Painted Verso, obviously.
But they're not my priority when I chose the ending.
I chose Gustave, Sciel, Lune, everyone in Lumiere, the Gestrals and the Grandis.

>>714488679
Nah it just means even if you consider these people are real, now they are no better than mere puppets and playthings of Alicia, no free will, the thing that made them ‘real’

Disagreeing with Renoir is basically saying you'd disagree with a father not wanting heroin in his home because his wife and daughter are addicted to it and he wants to save them from themselves.

Some of you would make for awful parents. I'm glad you won't have kids anyway because you're unfuckable retards to begin with.

>>714489067
And here's some more Versofag headcanon. Once again trying to complicate the dilemma because deep down he knows he can't justify the Verso ending with his own morals.

Alicia and her entire family are demiurges capable of creating worlds, but they never managed to accept the burden that comes with such a power and treated these worlds as amusement parks, escapism, or a space for self-expression. I would pick Alicia's ending PURELY because it means their entire family will continue reaping what they sow, their irresponsiveness and selfishness made a myriad of thinking creatures suffer, so they deserve prolonged suffering as well.

>>714488907
> world can't be saved
It cant be saved
Alicia is already breaking
The people are mere puppets
Everything looks lifeless and hollow

>>714489215
>The people are mere puppets
Headcanon
>Everything looks lifeless and hollow
Headcanon

>>714488650
>Renoir's word
Sure, source me.
>Alicia herself admits it
She's had her supposed uselessness drilled into her by her sister and has a low opinion of herself after getting Verso killed and becoming a burn-scarred cripple. She's clearly more capable than she expected.

>>714488663
>>714488896
Alicia was Alicia for 16 years. Maelle was Maelle for 16 years. The Canvas is portrayed as just 'le escapism' in the game but it's literally an entire life for her. Maelle comes to see her fellow Expeditioners as family, especially Gustave. Of course she isn't just going to let them all fucking die, that's retarded.

>>714489124
Gain some media literacy and learn what subtext means. The Alicia ending portrays the inhabitants of Lumiere as more puppet-like than they were previously. It's called visual storytelling. You think it's by accident that the Alicia ending has a subtly sinister and uncanny valley tone to it?

>>714488907
In order for this to be the dilemma though, you have to completely put aside the greater ethical problem of the genocide of a continent. It's saying that everyone in the painting only matters to the extent that you're attached to them, and that their lives are not important in their own right. Looking at it from a meta perspective of this being a video game, that's right. But from an in-universe perspective it doesn't make sense.

>>714489121
Well, Renoir's idea of solving the issue is to nuke Seattle to stop the heroin drug trade rather than actually talk to his family members about their problems. And then he's suprised they switched to fentanyl when he was away.
He's not a father of the year material as well.

>>714489182
Knower.

>>714488410
There is no mention of that, and the time period is so short that it would be hard to know anyways, but yeah, I think that is exactly what is going on.
Have you ever noticed that a lof of the humans have repeated or very similar faces? Is that lack of resources on development, or is it because Aline has certain types of faces that she tends to repeat, like all artist do?
The people of Lumiere cannot exist without a painter. This game is like links awakening. No matter how sad, Marin is gone because she never existed in the first place. There are only 2 characters in the entire game, Link and the windfish. Everything Link sees, are representations of the whale.
In the same vein, in E33, there is actually only the Dessendre family. No other character ever appears in the game. All that we see, even the mountains, is part of an artistic expresion of a painter.

>>714489326
>The Alicia ending portrays the inhabitants of Lumiere as more puppet-like than they were previously
It really doesn't lol
We already saw Alicia bring back Sciel and Lune. They are identical in all aspects. To the point we can see Lune being fucking pissed at Verso if Verso decides to genocide Lumiere.
You're trying to complicate the dilemma to try to morally justify Verso's genocide.

>>714489182
When AI becomes realistic enough that people argue it has some degree of sentience and thus worthy of civil rights, will you be arguing that people who delete AI characters should be charged with murder?

>>714488064
I agree that it's speculative. There is a reference to "old" Chroma, but that's the solidified Chroma due to people dying to Nevrons.
I think the idea that when someone dies their Chroma mixes in with the rest of the existing Chroma in the painting makes sense to me?

>>714488310
I think it's more likely that Aline's Chroma just made a woman in Lumiere pregnant with Alicia and that it has no bearing on anything else. They do specifically refer to not expecting the pregnancy.

>>714489124
>>714489272

>t. im blind
Look at the world in the fucking ending and compared it to the one in the beginning
>all the named characters look at old verso clearly distressed and pained expression
>totally normal guys, nobody react or do anything
>wep this is free will

>>714489362
Well, we're talking about painters that can just create people willy nilly and also erase them willy nilly. The ethics of it are all fucked.

>>714489410
MUUUHHH GENOCIDE!!!!!11

Get a new talking point, woman.

>>714489494
>>all the named characters look at old verso clearly distressed and pained expression
They're pitying him, retard. Lune was fucking ecstatic in the ending.
And why would Sciel and Lune have free will in Act 3 and then lose free will in the epilogue?

More Versofag lies. You truly can't help yourselves.

>>714489442
It's not a question of AI being realistic, it's a question of AI having actual self-consciousness and ability to autonomously develop. IF we do allow AI to spiral out of control to this extent, then yes, we will be forced to suffer the consequences too. This is also why we don't need true AI, advanced language models can solve the vast majority of issues we face as a civilization.

>>714489182
B A S E D

>>714489505
This, it is no different from deleting a file save, there is no ethics worthing speaking here, the different with beings from higher dimension is that vast

>>714489442
>that people argue it has some degree of sentience
LLMs by definition lack cognition. Make an actual conscious artificial intelligence then we'll talk.

>>714489442
Yeah, which is why we should be stomping down on that shit like we stomped down on clones decades ago. Although to be fair it's still pretty fucking far away from happening, if ever.

>>714489824
>like we stomped down on clones decades ago
Cloning and gene editing exists and thrives and will sooner or later hit the humanity as well.

>>714478107 (OP)
It's pretty simple bro
If you agree with Maelle, you are either a woman or a literal fag as your brain has to be wired like a woman's to even see any semblance of "right" in it
If you agree with Renoir and Verso, you understand that the cycle must be broken and you cannot just live in a fantasy land for the rest of your life at the expense of your brothers literal soul rotting away and being imprisoned.

>>714489375
Renoir is the actual hero of this game. If you had children, you would understand. He is desperate, and with good reason, and is doing the best he can do!
People say that he is aggressive, but he went soft on Alicia and let her do as she wanted even though he KNEW that she couldn't deal with it. Tired and frustrated as he was, he gave a chance to Alicia. Is that a dominant aggressive father?
Renoirs efforts are not enough because neither Aline nor Alicia WANT to be saved. This is why forcing them is the ONLY way. And if the kill themselves later anyways, at least you did all you could.

>>714489916
>you understand that the cycle must be broken
Are you talking about an ending that happened in your head? Because in the Verso ending they still keep creating worlds just to fuck with them, they learned nothing, Verso's crown jewel argument towards Maelle is that "you're wasting your birthright here, go get lost in a better world lmfao"

>>714489624
>they are pitying him
Lol fucking where, they all look at him with their smiling faces, lune only look a bit curious, now aliciafag straight up lied to make her look better
>why did they lose their freewill
To control the narrative like the psychotic bitch she is duh, some of them may not agree with her

>>714483445
This is what I thought as well
It's not really happy-happy for them though; they're living with a god at the end

>>714490083
I do not engage in discussion with homos and/or woman, sorry.

>>714490082
Okay, now do Painted Renoir.

>>714490084
>>why did they lose their freewill
>To control the narrative like the psychotic bitch she is duh, some of them may not agree with her
Right, so Maelle got people in Lumiere back, then took away Lune's and Sciel's free will. That's what happened. And she laughed maniacally as she did it, too.

By the way, if she can erase people's free will, why didn't she erase Verso's free will so that he'd be happy as a camper while playing the piano?

Maybe you're stupid enough that you can fool yourself with your lies, Versofag. But you'll never fool me.

>>714489916
>durrrrr
>durrrrrrrrr
>durrrrrrrrrrr
Fuck, if only I spoke retard...

>>714490143
retardbwo...

like omg you wouldn't commit heckin genocide would u? it's freakin genocide.. ur doin a freakin genocide what the heck!!

>>714490082
Yeah arguing with them is pointless
They immediately switched to muh feeling card then chose to hide from the problem instead of solving it, and blame the people actively trying to solve it as control freak because it hurts their feeling

>>714490514
It's actually textbook addict behavior. Immediately go on the defensive and accuse the rational actors in your life as being control freaks/bad.

>>714490216
You got no answer to why they all act like fake puppets
But i do have some theory about painted verso
Like the other painted family members, he is also clearly different compared to your normal painted people, not just directly created by Aline but one of her ‘masterpieces’
not to mention his connection to the soul of kid verso
So you could say that his power level, or the complexity of his code programs, are much higher than what Alicia, a mediocre paintress, could handle, thus she cant control his will like the other puppets

>>714490982
>You got no answer to why they all act like fake puppets
They don't, retard. The apprentice, Lune, Sciel, her husband, none of them act any more like "puppets" than Alicia herself. Did Alicia also eliminate her own free will?
Didn't read your headcanon, btw.

>>714488907
The world can't be saved. It's already half destroyed and fucked up from the fracture. Maelle's ending just leads to:
>Maelle/Alicia dying after 20-30 years (at most), in which case the canvas will be destroyed regardless
>Maelle/Alicia being forced out of the canvas the same way Aline was, in which case the canvas will be destroyed as well

He has ceased. Aliciafags defeated once again.

>>714491331
>Versofag trying to change the dilemma once again
>A-A-ACTUALLY, THERE IS NO DILEMMA WHATSOEVER AND EVERYTHING ENDS UP THE SAME ANYWAY, THIS IS HOW I JUSTIFY MY ENDING RATHER THAN YOURS
So pathetic lol

>>714491414
You forgot to shoehorn in "genocide" somewhere.

>>714491562
Yes, Maelle's ending is better because you don't genocide all these people in it. Thanks for reminding yourself of that.

>>714491642
Do you commit genocide whenever you delete a save game? No? Then this isnt genocide
These people can be copy paste whenever the painter sees fit
Painter lives are mattered because they cant do that to themselves

>>714492146
>ESL
You're brown

>>714491414
>THERE IS NO DILEMMA WHATSOEVER
That's pretty much their strategy, just remove the moral implications completely, which ruins real Renoir's character if anything.

>>714491414
See things as they are, not how you want them to be.

I would happily side with Maelle's escapism if not for Verso's soul having to pay the price for it.

>>714492229
The fact that no Versofag can just straight up argue from an honest position and go "Yes, it's worth killing all those people for the sake of Verso, Alicia and the Dessandre family" tells you just how lopsided the choice is and how much this makes them seethe.

>>714492314
> killing
There is no killing if they can be revived with a stroke of brush

Do Aliciafags really not have any other point other than "umm virtual genocide" compared to versofags point of having a real persons literal soul locked into eternal damnation for the pleasure of one teenage girl

>>714478107 (OP)
After 2 months Lune's feet still arent on my face, so its a shit game.

>>714492521
They can't after the canvas has been erased, which is what happens in Verso's ending. That's what Alicia imagining all her friends dissipating is showing. It's her knowing this.

>>714491642
those aren't real people, its time to wake up and stop playing make believe, is it cruel to end their existence? yes, but it was crueler to create them in the first place, the only path to healing grief and having a future is to live in the real world and not a perpetual cycle of playing dolls with people who live a cursed existence

>>714492560
Verso's soul isn't a sentient being with free will, thus he doesn't matter as much as the hundreds of people that rely on his supposed suffering.

>>714478107 (OP)
>>714480636

>>714489398
The interesting thing about Link's Awakening is the question of whether Marin was an illusion that became a seagull, or if she was a seagull that got transformed into a girl. But I agree otherwise and Aline might have become stuck in her painting over time because it takes too much energy and emotional investment to maintain creations that are truly just extensions of herself.

>>714492521
>if they can be revived with a stroke of brush
Did you miss the ending scene from Verso's ending or something?

>>714492620
>those aren't real people
They are real for all intents and purposes.
>is it cruel to end their existence? yes, but it was crueler to create them in the first place
I don't disagree with that, anon. But what's done is done. And now I pick the choice that doesn't kill them.
>people who live a cursed existence
Painted Verso and Soul Verso? Sure. No one else is living a cursed existence.

>>714488907
>Aline created this whole world
No she didn’t. It is Verso’s painting.

>>714492852
Yes, you're right. Verso created the gestrals and grandis and esquie and the overall world. Aline created Lumiere and the people. Renoir created some of the nevrons and the axions, Claire created the rest of the nevrons. I misspoke there.

>>714486694
Aline: denial (my family is still alive in here!)
Cle: anger (I fucking hate the writeeeeers die die die!)
Renoir: bargaining (if we can only destroy the canvas, the family will heal and be better, right?)
Alicia: depression (there is nothing for me in the real world, I have nothing and noone) -> returns to an alternate form of aline later with the same justification, but referring to the family of lumierians plus verso, as the depression has her completely forgo clea and both parents
Verso: acceptance ("Verso's dead!") -> wants to follow this through and have all versos dead

>kills Julie's expedition
>"don't worry, you'll be back, promise"
>winks at the camera
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWeygZqnkTU plays
took me out of the game ngl

>>714493190
lmao

>>714489398
>Have you ever noticed that a lof of the humans have repeated or very similar faces? Is that lack of resources on development
Yes
Guilamme has literally said it was a mistake to use Sophie's base model for Emma, but they just couldn't afford to make and modify that many detailed models

>>714494129
Thanks for the correction.

It's GOTY, players choice, and you can cope.

>>714478107 (OP)
>The people of Lumiere are so obviously real in the context of the game's universe. Are retarded faggots still trying to argue otherwise two months after release?
Don't be rude, not everybody has a brain that works.

>>714481682
If you think there is no difference between getting your head chopped off at age 12 or dying of old age at 112 then you're a really bright cookie.

>>714481354
>The life of Alicia
>lost an eye
>can't breathe without being in pain
>terribly maimed
>family being cold towards her
She's gonna kill herself, bro.

>>714488123
>completely undermines and trivializes the preceding two.
That always feels like a half-wit take. What gets undermined? It's like saying that your life all of a sudden became meaningless because somebody told you that God is real.

>>714484974
Yeah, but that guy used his indian powers to completely ignore that fact no matter how many people told him. Their retard-confidence is a strange superpower. Not that it ever helps them in any way.

>>714482956
>Verso's soul
>>714492294


Verso is dead, his soul is in the afterlife. Thats not a kid , its not Verso and it's not Verso's soul. It's an echo, a fragment of Verso when he painted the canvas.

>look at this poor little kid being tortured and slaving away.

Dogshit plotwist, emotional manipulation, terrible worldbuilding. First of all 0 evidence of any kind of suffering or any kind of torture. This is how canvas worlds work, theyve made hundreds - are they torturing their own souls?

>>714495918
It's not a plot twist nor terrible world building. The emotional manipulation is only by Versofags. No one is talking about a boy getting tortured or whatever. It's obviously an echo, like you said. It literally doesn't have free will.

>>714485803
The Lumiere we saw already got both wiped out and remade because the paintress was already killed. I can believe the remade Sciel Monoco and Lune are real, but the rest are tenuous and almost seems like maelle is just playing with puppets

>>714496598
>I can believe the remade Sciel Monoco and Lune are real, but the rest are tenuous
How arbitrary

>>714496508
I do think theres emotional manipulation because of the interaction between Verso and the "boy", since he is nodding to Verso asking if he's tired and reaching out the hand.

>>714496668
It's the frame of time in which they have died and where their chroma wound up. Those three were brought back near immediately. All the while Pierre was dead for years, Gustave was killed outside of a gommage mid journey, Sophie was gommaged. Not to mention that not all chroma was created equal. The whole Noco side quest and gestral rebirth hints that even if someone goes through a form of rebirth they might not be quite the same as they were before

>>714495918
>Verso is dead, his soul is in the afterlife. Thats not a kid , its not Verso and it's not Verso's soul. It's an echo, a fragment of Verso when he painted the canvas.
I too, can create my own headcanon

>>714496978
>It's the frame of time in which they have died and where their chroma wound up
Right. Completely arbitrary stuff you made up and decided matters despite nothing from the game supporting this.
We're talking about godlike painters that can do insane. Aline can just recreate Verso with all his memories. Maelle can reconstitute gommaged people... But you decided that there's a time limit to it... because there just is, ok?

i'm excited for the next clair obscur game to reveal that the dessendres are just a fictional family written by the Writers and that none of them are real either.

>>714496978
Guillame has said gestral rebirth is not meant to be an allegory for human repainting, it's simply because child verso explicitly wanted gestrals to have the joy of a new beginning over and over

>>714498176
Not on Verso ending chooser's side, but this "But the author said" shit is gay

>>714478107 (OP)
Who gives a shit

I've never seen so much discussion over such an uninteresting and cliche story
Are the people in this thread real humans?

>>714481775
The ending is retard bait to generate discussion. The actual story itself is bland and forgettable

>>714486694
Because she is bitter to be the only one left being responsible and run the family business while she can't take time for herself or be selfish.

If morally speaking, you can erase an entire civilization without any of your peers calling it genocide, there is no standing when you say that wiping out Lumiere so Alicia can focus on the War with the Writers is an imperative duty.

That's what we mean when we say that Lumiereans aren't real.

The Verso ending is the best ending because you free the Lumierians from the Dessandre’s control. When viewed from a Gnostic perspective, Verso’s end is the obvious answer.

Besides, if the Lumierians truly have souls, they’ll live on in some form.

>>714481354
This is how I feel. They are so "real" that they are easily re-made and programmed to do what painters want. Now they live among a god, so I assume no one will be allowed to be sick, starve, no one has to work because just let Maelle do it.
>but she wouldn't
Bringing Pierre and everyone else back should be the catalyst for downfall of Lumiere.

>>714495673
and that is her choice? Verso can't kill himself, he was made immortal and then Maelle brought him back. He has choice taken away, Alicia can just off herself once she has deemed life no longer worth living

If morally speaking, you can erase an entire civilization without any of your peers calling it genocide, there is no standing to say that it's wrong to wipe out Lumiere and the Canvas so Alicia can focus on the War with the Writers. It's a far higher duty.

That's what we mean when we say that Lumiereans aren't real

The people are real AND its still the right decision. You're trading one world for the lives of two gods, one of which has apparently created hundreds of worlds. In doing so they will break free of their addiction to Verso's remaining creation and go on to create so much more. From a utilitarian standpoint it makes much more sense.

>>714499731
there is no moral imperative to create life, but there is a moral imperative to support life you've created.

>>714481448
I mean I wouldn't be cheering about dying, but if I knew I was helping god/a god who created my world survive and go on to create countless others, I would support them in sacrificing my own.

>>714499842
Creating life is just as important as saving one.

>>714499989
incorrect, saving a life is more important than creating one.

>>714500085
We will never agree on this.

>>714499574
This, and it's only poetic that Verso is the painted copy of the Dessendre who made the pure canvas.

Verso a cute

>>714480636
How about

>the canvas will be destroyed anyway once Maelle OD’s
>the people of Lumiere are now her personal toys, their free will is invalidated in either ending

>>714478107 (OP)
Here we go again, the story of clair obscur is about overcoming grief and moving forward, regardless of the painted world, regardless of the adventure, everything is structured towards moving forward.

The second everyone in lumiere got gommaged ,the facade of them being "real" is irrelevant, they are creations that can be deleted and redone and recreated at a whim, they are not alive because they are editable.

When Maelle used her powers to bring back Lune and Sciel they didn't understand what happened, they got erased and brought back and there was no difference in their minds from the absence. A complete void of nothing, there was no pain and no suffering.Maelle in her ending brings back "everyone" Lumiere is "saved" , she could do that ON ANOTHER CANVAS. It's not lumiere that makes her not want to leave its verso's soul.

She CAN remake every single thing in another canvas.

>>714503443
Yeah, there's no such thing as bringing Lumiere back and Maelle's ending makes you fall into the same trap Aline did.

>>714503443
If we found out god was real and could delete/undelete you, how could you prove its not you? Is removal including a soul or not? Do the painters themselves even know?

>>714489785
Neural networks are necessarily sentient.

>>714490418
Post nose.

>bake a generic JRPG/anime twist into the story
>but even more retarded than usual so people will argue about it forever
Actually genius.

>>714500085
This. That other anon is a retard. how can you say making a life is the same to saving someone who is alive right now?

when you realize many anons here are quite literally autistic them picking maelle makes sense.

>>714503443
You are describing general anesthesia btw.

>>714499989

>>714503443
And it's morally wrong because they're conscious and believe in their existence.

>>714505103
At least Maëlle has a better reason since it's not about grief but not living in a crippled body, besides she had a whole alter ego that was born and raised in lumiere. Deleting all her friends and family and long term companions would feel off for her.

>>714508641
>And it's morally wrong because they're conscious
None of them are alive nor conscious at the end though. lumerie is completely dead. So just letting them stay dead doesnt hurt anyone.

>>714480636
Anon speaks the truth, yet it changes nothing.

>>714493190
Verso didn't suffer enough

>>714503443
>the story of clair obscur is about overcoming grief and moving forward
The creator have explicitly shot that down. It's about the relationship between art and artist. Renoir's journal is the central thesis of the game

I'm not sure why they made Maelle's ending look like a horror movie. I guess they were just trying to make a point, but if Verso really didn't want to live she could have unpainted him and everyone would have been happy. No need to destroy the whole canvas.