It's genuinely baffling

Toby has found himself with a series with very wide appeal, far beyond the usual hardcore gaming crowd yet he keeps insisting on catering the difficulty purely to hardcore gamers

I already went over this given that I have friends who can't even get into the game properly because they can't get past the bullet hell gameplay but rage quitting myself really does give a better perspective

Like he doesn't have to make every chapter more difficult than the last, there are way more people waiting eagerly for each chapter for the fucking story than there are people waiting for what more difficult boss is coming next

And I thought with this whole secret boss thing, maybe it was a step towards kinda satisfying both crowds but no, he's putting this into the main story

And the worst part is that even without the punishing difficulty, it's not that fun, across Chapter 4, the fight just haven't been fun at all

An assist mode would do wonders here, fucking Celeste has an assist mode and that game is fucking commited to being a tough as nail platformer

Sorry it sounds like I'm a sore loser, even though I'm not among a hardcore gaming crowd anymore and probably shouldn't be fearing ridicule anyway

The "hard" stuff in undertale basically had you as the player invincible. It was by design. Determination over overwhelming odds etc. The only real hard fight was Sans, and he was kind of out the way on a run most people won't play.

Deltarune isn't really difficult either.

>>715561078 (OP)
>a series with very wide appeal, far beyond the usual hardcore gaming crowd
Deltatroon delusions

>>715561078 (OP)
If you want the story without the challenge, go watch that fag shayy or whatever his name is instead of playing yourselves. You and your ilk deserve the ridicule and should promptly kill yourselves.

>>715561078 (OP)
unironically filtered and probably a zoomer

Subversive quirky metaslop is out of vogue, take that shit back to the 2010s

>>715561078 (OP)
Yeah it's pretty shit and unlike a real.RPG you can't even grind to make it easier. The battles gave also become a joke because the acts/sparing is barely more than a 2nd health bar for enemies. The bosses of chapter 3/4 are gimmicky

Bait or bad at video games, call it.

If you want story you can just watch youtube playthrough Mr. redditor.

>>715561078 (OP)
You have money, you have inventory, you have armors, use them

>>715561078 (OP)
It is probably possible to beat the game without moving the soul during attacks -- if you aren't collecting the SHADOW CRYSTALS.

The game is laughably easy other than the secret bosses, which aren't that difficult, either. You literally don't even have to win against gigaqueen.

Literally how bad are you?

>Noooooo you can't have a 500 thread only 250 thread for you
What causes this autism

>>715561078 (OP)
>t. Deltarune tester

I sympathize with Toby, because I'd like the game to be harder, but I also acknowledge a significant number of the community thinks the water cooler is hard, Gerson is hard, the night is almost unbeatable, etc.
he wants a lot of the people who like his game to be able to beat it, at least the main route, and I respect that.

>>715562290
Actually, a real RPG wouldn't let you grind and would always give you ways of resolving conflicts without fighting. Undertale/Deltarune is unironically more of an RPG than most VRPGs.

>>715562290
Healing items are OP as shit and constantly buyable
And you can get an armor piece in chapter 4 that, like the Temmie armor, is basically cheating in how strong it is
The Knight is hard enough that, if the shadowcrystals are plot important, there will almost certainly be an easy way for casuals to get them when the full game comes out

>>715566748
>a REAL RPG lets you make ANY choice in ANY situation so I should never ever have to fight
Shut the fuck up. This idea that a game has to offer X choices and they must all have a real chance of working or it's "unfair" is HORSESHIT and is only making RPG problem solving more generic.

>>715567395

>>715566487
people find those fights hard? the hardest fight for me was the NES shadow cloak fight. The Knight would have been up there if I had to do all 100% of its health instead of getting cucked on my 4th attempt by it dying after 25% dealt.

>>715566487
The water cooler is hard for me because I can't figure out how the fuck to consistently dodge it when the shit starts moving around and spinning
Never killed me though

Put on a happy face

how does that brown poster feel knowing that Toby has said that Frisk was a boy on multiple occasions? anything he says in response could not possibly convince me he isn't a delusional homosexual.

>>715561078 (OP)
anon I think you just fucking suck

>>715561078 (OP)
So did zun years ago, git gud.

>>715566145
Toby should just pay for a permanent spot in the catalog like the gacha and AI companies did.

>>715569538
He said Kris was too, in some deleted tweets he made accidentally.
The plot really doesn't make any sense if they're girls. What kind of girl gets to spend years of her teenage life with her 16+ brother in the same room?

>>715569768
I know about Frisk and Chara being boys (Frisk referred to as a boy on twitter by Toby, and Murderboy in the files for Chara). But any source on the deleted tweets for Kris. I agree the plot makes zero sense with a female Kris though, everything about his living situation and personality we see from Noelle talking about him as a kid screams that he's a boy. That's not even counting the fact that he physically looks male.

>>715567398
>>a REAL RPG lets you make ANY choice in ANY situation
I never said that and Undertale/Deltarune don't do that.
>so I should never ever have to fight
Most people go their entire lives without violence. It's the dumbest problem solver, there are better alternatives.
>This idea that a game has to offer X choices
Not any game, an RPG. The entire point of an RPG is agency. You should be able to try to do whatever you want. The game doesn't have to let you succeed, but you're supposed to have the freedom to determine your own battles, your own goals and scruples, etc. That's the entire point of the genre. A video game developer can't possibly guess every single action I might want to try, but they can at least give you a handful of reasonable ones. Toby Fox does this, mostly as a way of telling jokes, but that's more interesting than "Press A to hear a "swoosh" and then the enemy's HP bar goes down."
>they must all have a real chance of working
That's up to the developer.
>making RPG problem solving more generic.
There's 500,000 RPGs where all you do is punch monsters until they die. You're mad that like two give you the option to do something else.

>>715561078 (OP)
The game is easy outside of hidden content, though. You're genuinely just going to have to git gud, this is /v/ you're supposed to be good at these things

>>715567395
The shadow mantel gets a defense buff for each chapter completed on the save file.
So it looks like the idea is that if you complete all the chapters and then go back and fight the knight you will be way more tanky which combined with the additional effect where the character with the mantel gets targeted more should make the fight easier.

>>715569538
That doesn't look like a boy to me desu.

>>715561078 (OP)
Pretend I posted that one Spongebob scene with the rollercoaster

>>715569503
this is pointlessly edgy.

>>715572008
The humans are boys when i play, and girls when i fap.

>>715572774
this guy gets it

>>715572168
Pointless... yet edgy. That's deep

>>715572774
I don't self-insert, so they're just girls outside of Kris.

>>715573067
who is the girliest girl

>>715566043
not ones who beat sans

>>715573067
I used to say "when i self insert they're boys" but it isn't really right since my character is the floating heart, not the human.

>>715566043
I had a friend do his first playthrough of Undertale on my post-Genocide True Reset file. I also let him mess up the first run so he had to replay the game for True Pacifis.

>>715573474
You're only the floating heart in Deltarune.

>>715566487
To be fair the watercoolers attack is asriels HYPERGONER where he's trying to wipe the timelines but slightly more difficult
but it's also easy to just brute force and heal through it so it's still overrated in difficulty

>>715573975

>>715574073

CCCCOMBO BREAKER

>>715573652
As shown by the "let Frisk live their life" pleading by Flowey you're also the floating heart or something possessing it in Undertale, it just isn't a major aspect of the story and Frisk isn't distressed about you using their body

>kris has to be guy cause they share a room with Asriel
the dreemurrs don’t have a spare room. What if kris is a girl she would sleep on the couch?

>>715574420
then toby would just have added one more room to the house
the actual proof is burgerpant's relationship with kris, he wouldnt act that way if kris was female

>>715574420
they would make Asriel sleep on a couch until they can build another room

>>715561078 (OP)
>very wide appeal

LGBT community is not a wide appeal

>>715574552
Or Kris saying "banging sermon my man" is literally something a teen boy would say

>>715569538
Toby has only misspoken and called Frisk a boy once, in a deleted tweet in regards to a shitty porn artist.

is /v/ kill

>>715561078 (OP)
Never understood the appeal of these games at all. It's all cliches and tropes, from the music to the graphics and story. Full of padding to make the game last more than 2 hours each too.

>>715575256
It sounds like you haven't played them

>>715575256
Its about friendship and adventures and mysteries. Something you would have been interested in as a kid if you were a fan of Hobbit or Harry Potter. Its not an arcade or challenge type of game

The real reason why Kris isn’t a girl is because female autists are fucking VILE and kris is actually well groomed

>>715574263
The heart is just her SOUL. In that Flowey scene, you're "Chara". In fact, "Chara" is what (you) are until you give her enough LOVE to become its own thing.

>>715575432
I have
>>715575446
LGBTQ crap

>>715561078 (OP)
git gud. the game isn't hard.

>>715575597
>I have
>LGBTQ crap
It sounds like you haven't played them. Especially since if you dislike "LGBTQ crap" you wouldn't have played this to begin with. You seem pretty disingenuous.

Here's your adult Asriel, bro

>>715566145
>lust provoking image

>>715575597
"all cliches and tropes" / "full of padding" are criticisms you could level against literally anything you dislike due to how nondescript they are. Undertale's like 6 hours long for the neutral + pacifist endings and Deltarune's just a larger scaled game, even at its most dragged out "full of padding" is hyperbolic. Anyways they're as appealing to audiences as they are because people tend to generally enjoy Toby Fox's writing, music, and gameplay choices. There's not much to say on the matter other than people like what he offers, you haven't made any specific critiques to engage with

>>715561078 (OP)
the game isn't even hard. Just put it down and come back, genuinely, the difficulty Undertale and deltarune has is so much better than the malicious shit you see in more "hard" games like souls likes.

>>715575256
>Never understood the appeal of these games at all. It's all cliches and tropes
If it worked that well for Star Wars it can work for Undertale too

>>715561078 (OP)
I got halfway through your post before I realized you were actually complaining. All of this shit is good if you're someone who actually enjoys video games. Although I will agree that the standard enemies in chapter 4 weren't the most fun.

>>715561078 (OP)
Are you retarded? It's called looking up a wiki.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LvGMbjdkBJY

>>715570423
>The entire point of an RPG is agency. You should be able to try to do whatever you want
The point of an RPG is abstraction. It's a medium where anything a creator wants a character to be capable of can be represented in a highly abstract way, usually a numeric score. This allows games to offer players a large number of possible actions. The "point" of doing this wasn't to keep adding possible actions to the list by any means necessary, it was to try and find a set of available actions that adequately represented the feel of a character's adventure, while being tightly designed enough that it's enjoyable to engage with on a gameplay level.
>you're supposed to have the freedom to determine your own battles, your own goals and scruples, etc
The thing I object to is you trying to apply this on a battle-by-battle basis. I'm not saying you can't have a game do this, I'm saying setting your standard for "real RPG" at "every bit of content has a resolution respecting every moral stance you could choose to take" is asinine.
>There's 500,000 RPGs where all you do is punch monsters until they die. You're mad that like two give you the option to do something else.
I like Undertale and Deltarune, I object to your claim that they're closer to "real RPGs" than most video games. That's all. They're highly linear, and way more action-focused.

>>715561078 (OP)
Buddy, I think that's just a skill issue on your part. I literally beat both Chapters 3 and 4 for the first time in one sitting.

>>715577483
>The point of an RPG is abstraction
That's all games. That's the entire concept of a game. Yes, it's true of RPGs. It's also true of chess and hide-n-seek.
>The "point" of doing this wasn't to keep adding possible actions to the list by any means necessary, it was to try and find a set of available actions that adequately represented the feel of a character's adventure
You sound confused. All RPGs are descended from Dungeons & Dragons, a tabletop game. In that game, the player does whatever they want. They don't choose between a set list of actions. There are categories of actions described in the rules to help the DM with arbitrating the rules, but the player just says what their character does. They don't say, "Um, DM, I'd like to use the Use an Object action to pull this lever!" No, they just say they're going to pull the lever. Video games struggle to capture that amount of granularity, but without the freedom of player agency, you're not playing an RPG anymore. Mario can't decide NOT to rescue Princess Peach. He can't decide to recruit Koopas to his own army. He can't decide to cut off Bowser's head when he defeats him. In an RPG, you are supposed to be able to do those things if you want to. That's what makes it an RPG. Video games fail at this - but developers could at least try.
>I'm saying setting your standard for "real RPG" at "every bit of content has a resolution respecting every moral stance you could choose to take" is asinine
By definition it would. RPGs aren't about slaughtering goblins to make your numbers go up; that's not a genre-defining game mechanic, that's a difficulty setting in disguise.
>I like Undertale and Deltarune, I object to your claim that they're closer to "real RPGs" than most video games
They are.
>They're highly linear, and way more action-focused
Final Fantasy, Dragon Quest, Souls?

>>715579248
Not the guy you're entangled with, but the video game "RPG" only inherits the system of statistics from TTRPGs. Fundamentally a computer program cannot inherit the freeform nature of collaborative storytelling, and moreover, plenty of things defined as an accepted as RPGs are strictly linear adventures. The genre's boundaries are delineated by a system of incremental statistics that improve through playing the game (inherited from ability scores, character levels, and experience points). No amount of freedom is implied or expected in the video game genre, RPG.

Not reading that but here's this funny pic I have

>>715579396
You're wrong and I wanted to just call you a faggot because that'd be funnier, but I'll be nice and take you seriously.
>the video game "RPG" only inherits the system of statistics from TTRPGs
That doesn't matter. Saying something is right just because people have been doing it wrong for 40 years does not make it right, it's still wrong.
>Fundamentally a computer program cannot inherit the freeform nature of collaborative storytelling
That's a matter of degree, /v/'s favorite RPGs are mostly ones that do give the player quite a lot of freedom (usually at the expense of graphics). A video game developer can never meet the standard of a tabletop game, but that doesn't change what defines the genre and it's not an excuse to simply not try at all.
>The genre's boundaries are delineated by a system of incremental statistics that improve through playing the game
But this doesn't actually mean anything, especially in a linear game. You get stronger, sure, but so do the enemies, so in reality, no you didn't. It's not important for an RPG to have this.
>No amount of freedom is implied or expected in the video game genre
That's incorrect because they all have more freedom than non-RPGs. Multiple endings, dialogue options, character creators, your choice of party members, your choice of equipment, your choice of specialization - these are all examples of player agency. And they're all examples of things you'd expect to see in an RPG and not necessarily other genres. If a game professing themselves to be a different genre had these things, people would say, "This is an RPG." Because it is.

>>715561078 (OP)
Fucking kill yourself

>>715579248
>That's all games. That's the entire concept of a game.
No, plenty of games have non-abstract player input as a major deciding factor in how much ability characters have. The more your mechanical skill is involved in it, the less of an RPG it is, it's that simple.
>All RPGs are descended from Dungeons & Dragons, a tabletop game. In that game, the player does whatever they want. They don't choose between a set list of actions.
And in that game, the player's ability to succeed at doing what they want is decided by how they've built their character.
>They don't say, "Um, DM, I'd like to use the Use an Object action to pull this lever!" No, they just say they're going to pull the lever
And if their Use Device score is shit, or they're armless or their hands are paralyzed, that's not just "oh yeah I can't do that", it's represented by some number being too low for them to try to pull the lever in the first place. It's not all improv. Some actions are UNAVAILABLE TO THE PLAYER because of HOW THEY ARE BUILT.
>In an RPG, you are supposed to be able to do those things if you want to. That's what makes it an RPG.
Nope. Some RPGs simply don't let you make an infinite breadth of possible characters, or create characters at all, and thus leave some actions unavailable to the player period.
>RPGs aren't about slaughtering goblins to make your numbers go up; that's not a genre-defining game mechanic
The fact that some major part of your ability to engage with the game's main obstacles is represented by numbers is THE genre-defining game mechanic.
>They are.
Absolutely not.
>Final Fantasy, Dragon Quest, Souls?
Final Fantasy became progressively less of an RPG over the last 25 years or so. Dragon Quest's gameplay has been mostly trapped in amber for that period. Souls is an action RPG, emphasis on action. The stats and some choices give you room to roleplay a specific character, but the gameplay is action first with modifiers on what you can do via stats and gear.

>>715561078 (OP)
stop reddit spacing

>>715569503
Putona

I found the game too easy.

>>715561078 (OP)
consider git'ing gud laddie

I recently decided to finally get into touhou and getting the good ending in the first game is already harder than anything toby has made
There's no way hes satisfied with the difficulty of his games, he often mentions how he has to make things easier and easier as more people playtest

>>715579957
>That doesn't matter. Saying something is right just because people have been doing it wrong for 40 years does not make it right, it's still wrong.
That's not how language works at all, in fact. This is nothing but petulance.
>but that doesn't change what defines the genre
Yes, it does.
>You get stronger, sure, but so do the enemies, so in reality, no you didn't. It's not important for an RPG to have this.
It is beyond fundamental for an RPG to have an incremental system of statistics. That is the principle that defines what an RPG is. This is why Genshin Impact is an RPG but Breath of the Wild is not an RPG. Link does not level up. His damage values are fixed. That is the sole factor upon which the RPG title is bequeathed.

Post pics of (YOU) and Kris getting into Tom & Jerry antics, I like those pictures

>>715580879
wrong pic

>>715580851
He is an asshole that refuses to add a hard mode so I dont feel bad

>>715579675
That is a pretty funny jpg. Can i keep it?

>>715561078 (OP)
>he keeps insisting on catering the difficulty purely to hardcore gamers
I'm pretty close to being a casual gamer and I managed. Most of the game is pattern recognition the rest you can overcome with practice and repetition. Its not too hard and the challenge makes it more enjoyable not less.

>>715580879
What Tom & Jerry have you been watching???

To be honest, Deltarune really could use it's element system better, it says a lot that nobody really knows about Elemental pairs - yes spamton sweepstakes exists but "info not in game = in my as well not exsist" is too common, if toby is going to commit to not telling us shit then he could at least do it in ways so that even dumb people will notice

For example: Mouse - Puzzle are elements that are connected. Chapter 2 has the Mouse puzzle rooms, and the Mike room in Chapter 4 is technically a Mouse:Puzzle Room since you need a Mauz to get past the cat statues. This would be great use of the actual game elements if Toby had bothered to explain it to us, he expects way too much noticing from a fandom like Deltarunes

>>715581270
First time I heard about any of that

>>715581317
There's only two mentions of elemental pairs in Deltarune
>Shadow Mantle protects against Dark/Star
>PureCrystal (unimplemented) protects against Elec/Holy
And there's only one instance of actual elemental pairs being utilised
>Cat/Puppet are the element of Tasque's, Tasque Manager's, and Spamton NEO's attacks
>The Mannequin is supposed to protect against this, but only Kris can equip it and there's no mention of it doing this

>>715581578
>mentions shadow mantle's dark/star defense
>doesn't mention that it constantly protects from dark/star attacks in the Knight fight
>doesn't mention the Black Shard's anti-dark damage, which substantially increases your damage against the Titan
Did you not beat the Knight or something?

>>715581998
I was honestly under the assumption all The Knight's attacks were Dark element, but you're right I forgot there's that one star attack they use.
Also the Black Shard only does damage against Dark, not Dark/Star

>>715575678
This is the ship I want.

I told my dad about deltarune and he got me this shirt for my birthday

I beat every encounter first try except for Jevil (which taught me this strategy I’m about to tell you) by having Kris and Ralsei block 99% of the time and then just spamming rude buster with Susie. I did this with almost every fight.

>>715582368
subtle vidya merch

It's not "Dark" and "Star", it's "Dark/Star" which is one element in the game files. Same with "Cat/Puppet" and "Elec/Holy." There's also two unnamed elements, one of which is unused while the other is used by Elnina's rain attacks, in addition to the unnamed basic element.

>>715582192
>Also the Black Shard only does damage against Dark, not Dark/Star
makes me wonder if that's just a bit of weirdness with the description or if the titan(spawn) is just genuinely Pure Dark and not Dark/Star.

>>715581028
Yes!

>>715561078 (OP)
Only troons and faggots play his games.

>>715581101
Undertale and Deltarune are like DKC 1 & 2. Undertale is reasonably easy but you still want to engage with the fights and mechanics and beating them is fun, the later and genocide fights are tougher but more satisfying to beat and fun to replay.
Deltarune is a bit of a step forward in terms of difficulty but with more mechanics and greater satisfaction. They’re the perfect difficulty, and chapter 5-7 will have some good fights for sure. The only parts that are actually super hard in Deltarune? Doing weird route without a guide, you’re not doing snowgrave without looking up the steps.

>>715569768
I thought Kris was a dude too, but after reading your post, i choose to believe she's a girl and got plawed by Asriel three times per days, loud enough for toriel to hear.

DRIVING IN MY CAR

>>715582368
You’ve got a nice dad anon

>>715582603
You would know wouldn't you, anon?

>>715561078 (OP)
this is 100000% bait

>>715582368
I should replay Episode One again.

>tells Ralsei it’s okay to not smile
>still smiles anyway
Uhhh okay

I wish the game would allow me to kill Sans

>I'm just an object, Susie.
YAGIHOLE????

>>715583685
boy do I have the game for you, anon

>>715582368
This is very cool

I wish I could truck through hometown

>>715561078 (OP)
skill issue

>>715583626
He figures he still ought to keep a stiff upper lip even if everything's fucked.

>>715574753
one of kris' idols growing up was dess
she would 100% say some shit like that, and if dess = knight then kris emulates the shit out of dess

>>715574754
Sure, but if the creator of the game, the person who has probably spent more time thinking about Kris than anyone else on earth lets that slip even once, clearly the man thinks of Kris as a boy.

>>715561078 (OP)
It might be unwise from an accessibility perspective, but who cares about accessibility? Creators should make what they want to make and for the audience they want to make it for.
It seems a bit odd for a lefty-aligned, presumably DEI-positive dev to do it that way, but I'm not gonna complain about it.
Games don't need to be for everyone

>>715561078 (OP)
What's baffling about it? Dude made what he wanted to make, the way he wanted to make it.
He's not forcing you to buy and play it. If you do, it's up to you to meet it on its own terms, and if you can't, fuck off and watch it on youtube or something.

>>715574968
It sure as hell feels like it. Did I miss something in the last few weeks? The whole board has been even worse the browse than usual for the last few days.

I CANT DO ANYTHING!

>>715561078 (OP)
>challenging gameplay
>deltarune
its just not believable bait man

FRIEND will be a nothingburger and schizos in these threads will rope, sorry!

There is a man here

>>715584330
>Games don't need to be for everyone
Me again, saying they actively should it be for everyone. Chasing the widest possible audience is what ruins them.
My opinions about Toby Fox and his games are mixed but I respect him for sticking to his vision.
I guess there are arguments to be made that the way Deltarune handles difficulty is badly designed. Like, just because I think accessibility is a meme, that doesn't always mean hard is better. But making what you want to make and not compromising on it is based.

Secret Egg Acquired

>>715584693
should not be for everyone*

>>715584065
Same. Seeing Berdly fly across the kings chariot windshield would be glorious