There should be no scenario where Shadow is stronger than Knuckles.

PINGAS

>>717092771
WHERE IS THE CAKE EGGMAN

>>717092663 (OP)
Chaos energy and Black Doom Retcons makes him stronger.

>>717092663 (OP)
Shadow can lift a schoolbus with one arm

>>717092926
gimmicks that got retconned at the end of game

>>717093535
And referenced again in every entry where Shadow is the spotlight-
>gimmicks
You mean in-game feats in SxGen? Or the actual thing he does in cutscenes in games prior? Knuckles and Shadow have had instances where they knock out Super Sonic in different media.
The major difference is focus, and given that Knuckles only got super on Genesis and by osmosis in Heroes, goes to show he's really probably about as strong, given Echidnas are just the brute-strength race of the Sonic world.

You could also maybe say, Master Emerald exposure and his bond-ties with it gives him an edge.
But this shit is like arguing who is stronger, post-Kami-absorbsion Piccolo vs. SS1 Vegeta in the Android saga.

>>717092771
/thread

>>717092771
Not much else to say really

Eggman bodies them all.

>>717092771
snooPING AS usual i see

>>717094910
That's Dr.Ivo Robotnik, you PINGAS monger.

>>717092663 (OP)
>Knuckles gets shoved into a microwave as a baby to become more powerful
>Still can't beat Sonic or half the cast
>Nu-Sonic writing leaves him as a permanent retard
Is there a bigger pain than being a Knuckles fan

>Sonic didn't even attend his funeral

>>717092663 (OP)
shadow is the edgiest and so the most powerful of all.
only surpased by the OG because he's the OG

Jet is the best Sonic rival.

>>717092857

>>717092663 (OP)
Too bad, a weapon and a alien experiment that's magically attuned to chaos > some angry ancestral strong boy.

>>717095914
>Sonic's best rival
>Sonic also called him a worthless turkey without his board and has never won a race against him

>>717095730
Without plot armor, Sonic would be dead and easily beaten by Shadow

>>717093730
it's piccolo what are we even talking about

>>717095101
Tomato, tomado

>>717096518
Post hyperbolic time chamber Vegeta beat Cell 2, Piccolo only handled 1 pre-city wide absorptions and let Android 17 get absored.
BEFORE THAT, when Vegeta was getting beaten by 18, that would've maybe been the tell since Piccolo was holding his own against 17. But still, it's a question of when in the story. And that applies to Namek too I guess.

>>717096767
post time chamber he's ascended saiyan not ss1

>>717096850
>ascended saiyan
That's just the sayains, but stronger pre SS2. That's not a form, that's a point in their training.

>>717096912
point is, talking about broken arm jobeta vs kami fusion it's obviously piccolo

>>717097018
>still dances around the fact that you're arguing about characters at different points in time

>>717096223
>Cell vs Super Vegeta
Now post the aftermath.

It could always be worse..

>>717092663 (OP)
This, actually. Shadow can compete with Sonic in speed and be stronger than him, but Knuckles should always be the strongest fighter without gimmick abilities.

>>717097389
You have no idea how much I wanted him to be a short guy who pisses off Sonic

>>717096384
Sonic has quite literally never won a race against Jet

It was revealed that BRITISH anons love Knuckles more than Sonic overall because their version of the comics made Sonic into an asshole and Knuckles was the true hero for some reason.

Sonic's equal should be Metal Sonic. I don't know why they push Shadow to be equal in strength and speed; it really undermines almost every other character.

>>717092663 (OP)
Shadow is the Ultimate Lifeform, so hypothetically he should be able to be stronger than Knuckles just as Emerl/Gemerl should be stronger than both.
For Archie shit? I don't know. But for the Japanese material and mainline games, it always should be as such.

>>717095572
Sonic was stuck in space at the time. And I don't mean just close to Earth, I mean he was stuck in some other universe/galaxy, so he legitimately couldn't make it and ended back on Earth with everyone older than he was IIRC.
That arc was fucking weird. But at least afterwards the comics started to get slightly better before becoming alright altogether.

>>717095502
The first one is Penders lore only. Non-canon. He pretty much just ripped off Star Trek and Star Wars for most of his writing, he only did one genuinely cool concept (Enerjak) and nothing else.
The best way to make Knuckles stand out is to have a competent Japanese writer handle him (preferably Maekawa) and have him do solo adventures involving treasure hunting. Preferably in a beat-em-up style game.

>>717095914
Wave is the best wife.

>>717092663 (OP)
shadow is the ultimate life, knuckles is just some jungle nigga.

>>717098671
>>717098842
You do realize he's the ultimate lifeform because he's impervious to illness and doesn't age, not because of strength

>>717098842
>Ultimate (labeled by some old schizo literally making an in-universe Sonic OC)
>Actual Guardian of arguably the strongest thing in existence (The Master Emerald), and can break and reassemble it whenever he wants.

>>717098671
>Treasure hunting
You forget that ADHD retards despise that part. Granted it's kind of weird that he had that as part of his character for the OVA and two games before it just kind of disappeared.

>>717098237
It's funny how both Fleetway and Archie give the spotlight to the side-characters more than Sonic.
But I think that has to do with the fact that despite the fact Sonic is the protagonist, from a writing perspective he always works better as a satellite protagonist rather than an active one, even with his Japanese characterization as a freedom-loving force of nature, a direct character study is very hard without kinda turning it into either melodrama or just outright character assassinating him.
Even his US/UK characterization of being a snide asshole (albeit at least in Archie it's more toned down) is tricky because after a while he either has to grow or needs something else to make him interesting, otherwise it becomes boring. And with how tricky the mandates were and still are, I can see why most writers preferred working on the side characters more than the protagonist.

Fucking freaks

>The Ultimate Life-Form is stronger then a guy who just happens to be the last of his kind and that's a bad thing.
Sonic is literally the only person who should be able to be a 1v1 threat to Shadow. Makes them both look cooler.

>>717099190
Well, you are right to a degree. But it's not hard to extrapolate that he's also the ULF in strength, mainly because he boasted about it in SA2 and when Sonic beats him in his fight, he acknowledges Sonic as the Ultimate Life Form.
Either way, Shadow's characterization has always been kind of inconsistent when it comes to what he's actually supposed to be, it's clear Maekawa wanted a more philosophical character based on Rin/Shion from Please Save My Earth whereas Iizuka and co. wanted Vegeta 2.0, so we'll never have an actual consistent answer on that front unfortunately.

>>717099428
Reminder, you're the only person who has that picture saved to their hard drive itt

>>717098671
Knuckles has more raw physical strength but between speed, chaos powers like Snap, and the limit break, Shadow wins all his 1v1 fights with Knuckles. Beats him in both X, Boom show (Shadow is always stomping all of Team Sonic and loses via cartoon shenanigans getting in the way), and movie 3.

>>717099240
There was nothing wrong with the concept of treasure hunting as a gameplay concept, just as much as there is nothing wrong conceptually with Tails riding a mech.
The problem is it was tacked on a game and game engine where it felt kinda awkward, you can even tweak it with mods to make it slightly better, but it will never feel as organic as how it would if an entire game was actually designed around it.

>>717092663 (OP)
Knuckles is good at punching, and indeed he should have "more strength" than Shadow.
But Shadow was created as a copy of Super Sonic. Not Sonic. SUPER Sonic.
Super Sonic > Shadow > Sonic

>>717099463
>Sonic is literally the only person who should be able to be a 1v1 threat to Shadow.
Absolutely not, at that point, the entire franchise should just be about Goku and Vegeta fighting, my bad, I mean Sonic and Shadow

Knuckles should always be the strongest in the main cast on raw strength alone. Sure Shadow can be written to spam chaos moves to get Knuckles off guard, but in the same way, Tails should be able to outsmart Shadow to a fight. Making it seem like only Sonic or Shadow can move the plot forward makes this franchise boring as FUCK

>>717099658
Correct. And on top of that, he holds off on his own quite well against Shadow in Sonic X. It's only in Movie 3 and the Boom show where he's a complete jobber against Shadow.
So I'd definitely argue that while Knuckles can hold the line against Shadow, ultimately he does lose in the end.

>>717099428
I've seen so many weird fetish images like this across various other fanbases and I still question what genetically causes these bizarre fetishes to take root in people's minds? Shit's weird. Was it the result of a genetic memory trauma of torture victims from antiquity, medieval and early modern history who survived to breed eventually warping into a strange stockholm syndrome in the minds of genetic offspring? Are scat fetishists descendants of people who survived or witnessed Schwedentrunk? Is that why a lot of scat fetishists are of German origin?
Just food for thought. Someone should really do a scientific study into this.

>>717100013
>Shadow was built in the image of Super Sonic
this is the worst sonic theory of all time

>Nu-Sonic writing leaves him as a permanent retard

>>717100337
And they just let his ass back into the base like he didn't just become the biggest furry warmonger ever

>>717092663 (OP)
Knuckles hasn't been stronger than Sonic since Heroes, in gameplay and narrative.
>Knuckles thought the Egg Emperor fight was difficult, Sonic thought it was easy and said the fight would've been close if he was on his own
>Knuckles can't brute force the Heavy Egg Breakers, he has to expose and attack their weakpoint, Sonic doesn't need to do all that and can just oneshot them with a light speed attack

Now that we're on this topic, can we powerscale Mighty and Vector? I imagine Mighty is stronger than Sonic, and Vector is a literal crocodile soooo

>>717100078
That just makes it worse for sonic freaks, like imagine drawing that and beating it going "ohhhhhh mmmm fuck yeah I'm gonna piss in your mouth sonic"

>Nearly every character is about the same speed in 2D
>Sonic is still the 'fastest'

>>717100674
I think you barely read my post, anon. Try again.

>>717100675
hes only the fastest in name, he quite literally does NOTHING in the games that the other characters cant do

>>717098671
>Shadow is the Ultimate Lifeform
Stopped reading here. Sonic is the ultimate and Shadow even concedes the title with in game dialogue

>>717100675
He's fastest in LORE. You gotta consider the LORE, dude

>>717100675
The funny thing is sonic is unironically the worst character in the 2D games, since every other character has all his abilities + more.

>>717100675
Ludonarrative dissonance.

>>717101384
>Shadow even concedes the title with in game dialogue
Later confirmed that he only said that out of desperation, next.

>>717101513
Sonic is the only one with the insta shield and shield abilities

>>717098485
Metal Sonic is the King Sisyphus of power levels. He's always where Sonic was, not where he is now.

Granted between Metal and Shadow, it is funny that Sonic's two biggest rivals are immortal so he'd eventually get old and slow compared to them if they weren't in a time locked cartoon franchise.

YOU'RE NOT EVEN GOOD ENOUGH TO BE MY FAKE

>>717095502
Knuckles was based in the advance games, and that's good enough for me

>>717101936
what happens if we take off Shadow's shoes

>>717102042
it would be very stinky
haha

>>717101703
Why was he desperate?

>>717101936
This always cracked me up

>>717102130
>>717102042

>>717102441
Heh *rubs nose*, smell ya later!

thekuzzy.win
thekuzzy.win
thekuzzy.win

>>717100675
They are all just trying to make him feel good about himself. And then there is Metal Sonic in SA2 multiplayer that just decides to be a dick and outpace him very very badly

>>717102201
FUCKER THERE'S A GIANT LIZARD CRASHING INTO EARTH AND THEY'RE RUNNING OUT OF TIME

>>717100189
Any arguments or just your feelings?

>>717102708
His spindash shield fucking sucks however, also funnily enough, Amy is the fastest grinder in SA2. And that matters a bit when the most scoring routes in most stages require you to grind a good bit.

>>717102720
i'm not arguing about a theory because it's fucking headcanon lmao

Am I the only person who doesn't like when people draw Mobians without gloves and footwear? I felt like this was the common consensus up to the late 2010s. But I keep seeing more and more art that features it. . .

>>717100189
It's literally the best theory, lots of evidence, makes perfect sense, and Sonic Team is well aware of it yet didn't go out of their way to kill it in Shadow's Generations like they did with the theory of the Bio-Lizard being based off Perfect Chaos.

>>717102935
So it's just your feelings and I shouldn't even engage with you.
At least you've warned me, so I'm thankful for it. Most don't and it's just a waste of my time.

>>717100047
Tail's can out gadget Shadow to hold him off like he did in Sonic X but "outsmarting" him isn't that consistent of an option, Shadow is tactically smart even if he's not an inventor, it took a shit ton of attempts to trap him around the ship before one worked.

>>717095914
the sexiest male

>>717103093
>>717103139
>Shadow is based off Super Sonic- look at the models!!!
the byproduct of cutting corners but believe what you want

>>717100675
Gameplay concession. Hell, given how they recently hard confirmed that Shadow needs his Air Shoes to match Sonic while also making a big show of his powers energizing shit, it seems like Shadow has more raw power then Sonic and his shows conviently drain just enough energy to raise just enough speed to be Sonic's mirror.

>>717101703
That and it was written for when Shadow was a one-off character and they had the implications that the Shadow found in G.U.N storage was a hastily made second attempt who never met Maria, all of which was dropped later.

>>717101513
Maybe in some of the older ones but with the Drop Dash, Sonic keeps his flow state better than any other character and he ends up becoming the most fun to play as.

We should've gotten a new Tails Adventure game. Featuring a mix of Ace Combat gameplay, improved mech gameplay and Gundam Gameplay, the next step in Miles' engineering path.
But no, have a shitty Sonic-only game every Solar Eclipse...
And no I'm not a Tailsfag or a (kind of redundant to state it after saying Tailsfag) homosexual.
I just want variety.
I want a Tails solo game with different gameplay. I want a Agent Shadow game. I want some sort of girly or minigame focused Amy and Cream game. I want a new Eggman's mean bean machine game with nice graphics, new mechanics and multiplayer, how could SEGA miss the x99 trend we had a few year back, even Bomberman jumped on it!!!!

>>717095572
is vector ok

>>717103435
>Quills matching Super Sonic
>Gerald explicitly studied the fuck out Angel Island to the point he re-created the Master Emerald shrine
>Only prediction of a Hedgehog being a master of Chaos Energy to inspire him is the Super Sonic mural
>Why the fuck else would he make his project a Hedgehog over a human when the entire reason he signed on was to find a cure for Maria.

Shadow Generations even leaned into it, there's a redacted line in the journal that says Gerald made a critical discovery and the context meant it could be either the Master Emerald or the Super Sonic shrine. Ian is well fucking aware of the theory and yet only went out of his way to kill the Perfect Chaos theory.

>>717104409
Killing off the perfect Chaos theory and adding the Emerl stuff was gay and retarded. I'll never accept it as canon.

>>717105423
Wait why did one of these have to exist? Emerald was just a proto-type attempt at the Ultimate Lifeform, with a similar origin of being alien tech Gerald reverse engineered. And Chaos's lore is completely detached from this, and can still be the catalyst for it's own setup in SA1 and some new setup on Shadows development in 2.
Or is it that he came pre-formed as a hedgehog and not a black doom squid?

>>717103034
You're not alone, anon. Seeing Sonic characters with bare hands and feet always feels uncanny as hell. Like, I get the appeal for some because "muh realism" or "expressive anatomy," but it completely breaks the look and style that made them iconic to begin with. Gloves and shoes are part of the *design language* - they're not extras, they’re fundamentals. It's like drawing Mario without his hat. Just looks like a weird Italian plumber then. Keep the gloves on, freaks.

>>717106683
To be clear, I love Emerl. I hate the Shadow Gens "Emerl Accident" thing.

>>717108995
I only love it because it acknowledges Emerl I really want a figure of him, so anything that makes him relevant is fine by me. Also I found the animation on the special to be interesting.

>>717108995
I don't like that they take the weight (and possible corruption) out of the G.U.N. and add a "It was a misunderstanding!" BS.
I love Emerl and I love his relationship with Shadow. To the point I'd love to see a "what if" AU where we have him being Shadow's "younger brother" figure. But I guess Team Dark would be too full with 4 members?

>>717092663 (OP)
Physically? Sure, makes sense. Knux should be stronger.
In a fight? Shadow mogs him between being faster, chaos control, and having actual ki blasts.

>>717109104
Try and get someone to 3D print you one! As soon as I get a hold of a printer I'll for sure be getting Silver Metal Sonic, Metal, Neo, Mecha, Emerl ...

>>717109485
Is there a middleman site that just excepts requests and ships? Most custom work I've seen is all on the Isntagram sphere and I hate even thinking about it.

>>717092663 (OP)
what about ULTIMATE LIFEFORM do you not get?

>>717109348
>But I guess Team Dark would be too full with 4 members?
they could expand the team to have a 4th member, especially if they're going to keep pushing Amy as a 4th for team sonic like they have in certain games.
desu I think a bigger issue is that emerl kind of steps on omega's shoes. it can work, but emerl would likely need his own little B plot going on in this hypothetical game. kind of like how shadow had his robot/clone thing going on at the time.

>>717109820
>emerl kind of steps on omega's shoes
I disagree. It's rather endearing to me that Team Dark with Emerl would be 3 Killing Machines (plus Rouge) that each found new purpose and share that adventure with each other when they can. While Team Sonic is a group of steadfast friends who always have each other's backs, Team Dark in this context is more of a small family that protects their own.
But that's just me, I'm a big found family type guy in general.

>>717110449
Omega playing nice with any other Robot is unlikely, he may specifically hate Eggman Robots but any in general seems unlikely.

>>717109581
Possibly but I wouldn't know. I know there's a site where you can buy/order 3D model files to print (people use them a lot for Warhammer stuff). At best I've seen a dude on Instagram who models, prints and then sends custom armor stuff.
>>717109820
Emerl's personality is different enough, but I could see how some people wouldn't like 2 monotone robots together. You could go the way where Omega is more independent and Emerl is indeed more like a, somewhat, curious little brother to Shadow and Rouge. But I also think my bias is blinding me here hahaha.
>>717111032
When has Omega interacted with non-Eggman Robots (who also weren't Slop Consumer models)? I FEEL like he could be okay with Emerl, since he's none of those, he could even have some sort of rivalry with him, as he does with Shadow. But I also think it's easy to fall under the whole "dogs are jealous of who's the favorite" cliche that would hurt both characters.

When Sega say Team Dark isn't a thing, they don't mean that they never teamed up, they mean they aren't an organized group like the Chaotix are, the closest thing to a leader they have is Rouge because she contacts them with information, they decide if they want in on it and if they do they'll do whatever they want to.
When they say Shadow has no friends it's because Maria is dead and while she wasn't the only person he could bring himself to trust, she was the only person he could ever allow himself to be emotionally vulnerable with.

>>717092663 (OP)
Isn't knuckles like mid tier or something? I don't remember him ever being particularly strong.

>>717114117
He literally sucker punched Sonic out of Super. I'm not a Knucklesfag, but the fella is strong. They should bring back the Cowboy hat and remove his modern "retardness"

>>717114117
He's A tier. Step below the S tier boys (Thus Sonic, Shadow, Silver) but has a niche in being the only one who can tell the Master Emerald to stop the Chaos Emerald's.

Saturday Night and the Sonic thread is having a hard time keeping afloat? What's going on? What happened? What happened to the American Dream!?

>>717114117
Out of the characters from the same world as Sonic, Knuckles is in the top three along with Rouge and Sonic. He's pretty strong.

>>717117046
Technically Amy and Cream are up there too. Amy is stronger than Sonic, the same way Chichi is stronger than Goku. And Cream has the entire gang backing her up, even Omega will defend her!

>>717117741
Good bait, I nearly fell for it.

>>717098058
Sonic won a race against Jet literally like 10 minutes after that gif

>>717120138
Sonic was the only one who took it as a race because he was so butthurt, Jet was actually focused on a mission LMAO