Thread 717181553

>character's existence itself ruins the game for everyone except their own mains
how would you rework sniper?

>>717181553 (OP)
I wouldn't. Just don't walk un a straight line or respect his sightline. Or just fucking rocket jump to him.

Nerfing sniper after almost 20 years is retarded uncle Dane commie video essay speak. Kill yourself.

>>717181553 (OP)
Getting bodied by a sniper is purely a skill issue and the only people who complain about sniper suck at tf2

>>717181702
People never complained about sniper till retarded youtubers did in like 2017. (Youtubers that started playing tf2 in 2015 btw)

>>717181553 (OP)
Sniper is a class for faggots. You'll never be overpowered, and you'll always be gay.
If you don't like sniper, just play 6s. It relegates all of the useless classes to last point

>>717181702
Even though Uncle Dane said Sniper is balanced, among a million other retarded things.

>>717181553 (OP)
why do shitters always complain about him, learn how to air strafe/pivot while in his sights and be mindful of sniper spots on the map

>>717181553 (OP)
it's easy
>doesn't reduce peak power
>makes snipers put themselves into more vulnerable positions to get that power back (and actively move around the map in general)
>still keeps his long-range safety, but with lower uptime due to longer charges required, and missing out on a few crucial damage tresholds like quickscope and overhealed heavy headshots
Huntsman Sniper is already balanced, move the rifles a bit closer to that and you're golden.

>>717181553 (OP)
casuals HATE things that require game knowledge to counter rather than mechanics to outplay.
same reason people cry about hanzo/widowmaker.
same reason people cry about blackpanther
The interesting thing is I'm surprised there's still casuals playing tf2 to cry about it, or is this just nostalgia?

>>717181883
> sniper is a class for faggots
> just play 6s
6s tf2 sounds like the most homosexual and retarded experience anyone could have in tf2.
>>717181983
Uncle Dane is:
Fat
Retarded
Deserves an acid bath with idubbbz and his wife

>>717182056
Uncle topic called they want their favgot back

the very epic sniper thread rerun

Because he's not fun.

>>717181814
>People never complained about sniper till retarded youtubers did in like 2017
zoom zoom

>require scoping for at least 1 second to do 150 damage on a headshot
there, I fixed him

>>717182409
This wouldn’t haven’t if the /vg/ thread wasn’t so awful. They’re currently spamming the general over there with the same unrelated Blue Archive images among other things

>>717181995
>just don't get shot!
retard

Add more cover to maps, that's supposed to be their counter

>>717182638
Zoomers when they realize walking in a straight line that always has a sniper spot leads to death.

>>717181553 (OP)
Remove the charge time.

>>717182831
> you mean to tell me it's can strafe right and left to not be shot by sniper?
> you mean to tell me flare guns annoy snipers especially the detonator?
> you mean to tell me you can abuse the snipers aimpunch to make him miss
> you mean to tell me I DONT have to go there way the snipers staring all game everytime??

>>717183063
Dishonest considering the bullets are hitscan and cannot be dodged in the same way as a projectile can.
Dishonest considering the sniper can put on two different diapers to counter aimpunch which barely even matters, it's even disabled on miniguns past a certain range and both fire dmg and afterburn.
Dishonest considering every single map has a sniper sightline that your team has to move into or cross over to do the objective.
The only real counter is having a sniper better than theirs, or the vaccinator to get the fag to focus on the sniper duel.

>>717183423
Go back to uncletopia you fucking retard. A target moving left and right is considerably difficult than a STRAIGHT FUCKING LINE.

Any snipers that use items to counter aimpunch instead of the smg/machete are also dogshit and you deserve to die to them.

>every map has a sniper sightline you MUST pass to get into the objective
Go a different way most maps have that. Rocket jump to him and rape him. Or the sniper is constantly getting raped because HES RIGHT AT THE OBJECTIVE WHERE EVERYONE IS. If your whole team cant counter 1 or 2 snipers without a vaccination or another sniper you deserve to lose.

Go back to grooming children on uncletopia you comatose.

>>717183667
Players in casual have a higher average skill than the invalids on that server. I don't need to play there. You are an invalid that's afraid to call out cheaters or you unwittingly abscond their existence. Nothing you've said can change the reality of sniper. Jump a good sniper and if he's aware he can simply 50 dmg you to stump your jump. Stop being a dishonest nigger.

>>717181553 (OP)
Most I would do is add tracers to all his rifles. The actual good players will be even better off than they are now because tracers let one know about a Sniper's recent position on the map before it's too late, and the scrub whiners will still whine that it doesn't fix the fundamental problem of Sniper because they're scrubs who don't understand how important it is. Catering to complainers will always downgrade and genericize your game. You have to remember that scrub whiners will always find something to whine about no matter how much you cater to them. If you removed Sniper today, you would instantly see Soldier seethe threads next, then Demoman, then Engineer, and so on, maybe not calling for outright removal, but significant nerfs to the point where they'd be unplayable.

Change Sniper's default damage to 40 instead of 50. There I fixed the class.

>>717181553 (OP)
That's not demoman. demospam has been bullshit since '07

>>717182831
So there's no difference in possible outcomes in Scout 1 vs 1 duels based on how good one player's movement is vs. another? The reality is movement is the #1 deciding factor in winning an MGE bout of Scout vs. Scout. Why are people like you incapable of inferring a logical conclusion from one hitscan class (Scout) to another (Sniper)? Being able to strafedance and fake out a Sniper's shot, and then reposition quickly in the second or two while he reloads his bolt action rifle, is crucial at medium to long distance, as you odds flip overwhelmingly in your favor once you're in close range of him.

>>717181702
>>717181748
>>717181814
>>717181979
What kind of mental illness is this? Dont bother editing out the (You)s because you're obviously using the same source for low-quality shitty brief GIF files.

>>717182638
You're right, people complained that their team had too many Snipers because they were easy kills. They still are, even the most elite Snipers, because Snipers have shit mobility, shit crowd control, and low HP. You can take away their ability to kill you by simply being aware of his presence in the back of your mind and keeping track of your angles.

>>717181553 (OP)
>remove danger shield from the game
>give all flare guns slight homing after 1000 hammer units
>whenever a sniper burns to death, the entire map pauses so everyone can view the kill cam
>Valve puts out a 24/7 channel on Twitch that's just all the snipers that are dying in real-time
>it will also link to their Steam ID in chat so viewers can DM them "lmao, scrub" messages live

>>717181553 (OP)
force unscope if he takes over 25 damage in one hit like halo and/or a team colored laser glint when he is looking at you

>>717181553 (OP)
Literally just give all rifles besides the classic and Sydney tracer rounds. Problem solved

>>717184783
Don't forget doxxing them and sending a drone strike to their location

>>717184878
adding onto this, the cozy camper would negate the force unscope at full charge

give him less ammo on most of his primaries weapons, and rework his backpacks, Razorback can be broken by getting shot at, and like the Caber, it can only be restore by going to respawn, and remove the afterburn immunity on the danger shield.

>>717181553 (OP)
>how would you rework sniper?
Remove him obviously. If you can't engage with other players then online fps games just aren't for you. The game shouldn't be bent to playing around you just because you need a low effort high rewarding handicap.

>>717181553 (OP)
>Every shot has classic tracer
>Half reserve ammo
>Delete jarate, razorback, dds, bazaar bargain
>Fix huntsman hit detection
>Reduce base movespeed to 93%
>Scoping in takes longer but charges faster
>Nerf obnoxious sightlines on popular maps
>Buff spy
Sniper can no longer ignore his counters with unlocks or give his team perma buff banner on last
Can't afford to miss as much with less ammo and tracer giving your position away
Slower zoom in sniper can't quickscope players before they can react
Slower move speed means more downtime and harder to surf out of danger
Spy can now consistently kill him

>>717181553 (OP)
I am so tired of Nu-TF2 players who want to nerf and remove shit from the game instead of getting good and engaging with the game on it's own terms, MyM really brought in the retarded Overwatch crowd who wants everything massacred and fucked up every other patch so you have to relearn the entire game every time you step away from it. You niggers already took away my beloved picrel, learn to fucking move around a little and stop being such a pathetic bitch about a 20 year old game.

>>717186403
>Git gud
Non argument. I can point to HL which is the closest thing to a competitive pub where sniper is still oppressive and you'll still make up some excuse how that doesn't count.

>>717186403
Ambassador my beloved....

>>717186403
Headshot is a gay mechanic for faggots (see also : snipers)
Real gunspies only rely on stock or l'etranger

Two words:
>Not hitscan

>>717181553 (OP)
all rifles have a long range mode and a short range mode
the only difference is that you can't headshot if they're too close or too far, respectively
switching modes takes a full reload animation

sniper is mostly fine, but a bit brainless because he doesn't have to think about how far away his targets are, especially when he's decently protected by his team

TF2 players dont know how to switch maps bc many of the most popular are sniperbait ones

>>717181553 (OP)
Reverse damage ramp up that also affects crits.

>>717181702
>Just don't play the game!
And I don't anymore after all the times they nerfed everyone else but sniper.

>>717189553
Because open areas are fun for every class not just sniper.

>>717186403
Sniper was hated even before TF2 was released. It was only tolerated before when the sniper rifle was a power item you could pick up in arena shooters because you never started with it.

Why did TF2 devs have such a hard on for sniper and soldier

>>717181553 (OP)
I take it as a challenge to rocket jump past everyone and smack him with my big spoon.

>>717189651
>And I don't anymore
Someone who doesn't even like TF2 wants to fundamentally change it for the worse, I'm shocked.

>>717189746
whoever made this obviously never played tf2 when the ambassador was the meta
>what if we made sniper 2.0 that has no charge time on the class that goes invisible
WHAT WERE THEY THINKING

>have to pursue a specific player as though he were the map objective
>he's always on the opposite side of the map from you
>if you dont handle him he will just kill a player every couple seconds

It's always been a map issue. Long corners mean favoring snipers or bullshit like grenade spam.

>>717189912
>Strawman argument
pls stop

>>717189912
His change isn't something that goes beyond the scope of the developers vision and it's not even an autistic change. What's wrong with Sniper being weaker in close range to balance out the fact that he has infinite range to kill you?

>>717189938
You could say basically the same thing about a Dead Ringer Spy, it forces you to hunt him down or he just chain-stabs your oblivious teammates. A good Spy constantly forces you to check your back in the same way you know to never linger in an area that is too open to Sniper shots.

>>717189924
Any ambassador aimgod would have been 10x worse if they were just playing sniper

Would sniping actually be a good job?

>>717189924
The meta was the Enforcer and DR, don't even pretend. The old Dead Ringer is dogshit compared to the new one and the Kunai is stronger and more obnoxious than a Spy running around with the old Ambassador.

>>717190085
Not just map issue, but the unlocks sniper has like razorback and BB really does make it so that he can sit in one spot in the back forever without a coordinated push

>>717190401
Because he's already at a significant disadvantage at close range due to the nature of the weapon. Why not go even further and make him automatically explode the moment an enemy gets in close range? If a Sniper manages to headshot me when I'm up in his face, he deserves to win that encounter.

>>717190613
>The old Dead Ringer is dogshit compared to the new one
The Dead Ringer that could tank a backstab and recharge with ammo pickups? THAT Dead Ringer??

>>717181553 (OP)
Can somebody post the chart which laid out how every class plays from boring to most fun?

>>717190418
There was a short time where they actually got the dead ringer spy right until they gave him a speed boost AND a higher damage protection threshold with no shimmer. Literally the only thing that can reliably kill a dead ringer spy is if you get him in a sticky trap.

>>717190672
The disadvantage there does not balance out every advantage he had before you got there. It's not a difficult task to headshot someone with the miniscule zoom the sniper scope gives you, don't pretend like it is.

counter-strike is better

>>717190835
Yes. The movement speed buff (107% spy speed) coupled with the DR flash speed is infinitely stronger when paired with the Kunai to harvest barely awake players. Old DR was strong at tanking massive damage spikes but you still know that fag is slowly walking to the nearest ammo or health pack and you can force him to fight you. New DR allows them to disengage and kill some drooling retard on your team, or facecheck less good players after DR flashing and facestab them. Kunai overheal means they have little to fear after the first kill anyway.

>>717190613
>Dr Enforcicle
The fun… The seethe… I miss it bros

>>717190919
It does in my experience because I never get shut down by even the most insane Sniper who's rattling off 10 kills in under a minute on the rest of my team. At most, I'll get killed once, maybe twice in a row if I'm being careless and extra risk-averse, but I'll always, over time, be able to handle a Sniper. Even a lone aimbot Sniper can be dealt with using gamesense and taking advantage of his reload time. I've played on tons of teams recently that were getting shut down by a really good Sniper, but adjusted halfway through to win it in the end.

My point is that even though a Sniper has a 95-5 advantage at long range and a 80-20 disadvantage as close range (not even), that's STILL balanced.

>>717191161
It's arguably better if you're a god at trickstabbing since it opens up a lot of mindgames and movement options but for the average spy just trying to get behind it sucks ass because 65% on the first hit is still risky walking through a choke being sticky/rocket spammed. One random crit or direct sticky will fucking end you.

>>717181553 (OP)
what is it about snipers that pisses people off so much? Even in planetside 2 where the sniper class requires significantly more skill than the tf2 sniper (bullet drop + bullet velocity + requiring a headshot to kill) I would get seethe /tells all the time by pissed off retards.
They dont really have much impact on the fight and just snaking and not standing still like a tard usually counters like 95% of people who use those playstyles anyways.

>>717190418
While Dead Nigger Spy is annoying, he is not sitting stationary at the opposite side of the map using his Thumb of God to systemically snuff out players anywhere in his huge ass sightline.

>>717181553 (OP)
remove hitscan sniper weapons
everything now functions like the huntsman
rework all existing guns to look like bows/crossbows/blowguns

>if you shoot at a sniper, treat his shots as if he had just scoped in.
This means you are buying 200 ms of headshot immunity (to either approach or retreat) as a reward for knowing where he is, same as how you counter Spy with awareness.
>revert danger shield to +25 hp
fire immunity is stupid
>razorback no longer recharges
the entire weapon concept is stupid but it's too late to just get rid of it, but what's stupid about it now is that it pops into existence on a timer if somehow someone broke it earlier. caber needs to recharge from a cabinet, razorback shouldn't be getting that for free
>remove minigun flinch resistance
why does sniper need this? it's a hidden feature that makes him more oppressive in the matchup.
>bump the cozy camper's hp regen, remove flinch immunity
see point 1.
>make jarate require a direct hit to get its current splash radius for applying debuff. still use current radius for extinguishing
the radius is frankly absurd considering there's no falloff to shorten the debuff timer. Mad Milk should get similar treatment, both are strong enough to single-handedly win a teamfight, and on classes that generally don't give a shit about their secondary.
>make huntsman do 2 frame-forward checks instead of 1
the hitboxes and magnetism toward specific body hitboxes is jank as fuck. shooting someone in the foot shouldn't count as a headshot under any circumstances. That's not really a nerf, it's more of just cleaning up the collision detection.
Sniper himself isn't really a problem. Yeah it sucks to die to someone you didn't know was there but that happens with spies and all other ambushers. What actually sucks about sniper is that interacting with him feels like a futile effort since he's so far removed from the consequences of missing his shots. Addressing that in a way that makes it feel like a mutual interaction between players, you'll see less frustration because there will be the lingering potential of "I could've jostled him a moment later"

>>717191634
I agree. I'd still consider it low risk/high reward given the nature of the tools but players can go out of their way to shut it down.

>>717191765
I remember when the "Lucksman" was the most hated Sniper rifle because you didn't even need to aim to get kills with it, just spam it down a corridor where lots of people were.

it doesn't matter if he's OP, he's just not fun to fight. yes, I can counter him. yes, I can avoid the sightline. yes, I can use all the techniques that minimize my risk of dying to a headshot. but those things require that I know the sniper is there. walking out into a sniper sightline and getting instantly domed is never a good feeling. sniper as a class is fairly balanced, but shitty map design and his ability to hide miles away and instakill you with minimal warning make him infuriating. if he were to be rebalanced, adding more ways to spot him would make these issues go away.

All whining aside, the fact of the matter is, it's not a bad thing for games to have an option for highly skilled players that put many hours into getting better to be able to apply that skill directly to achieve results without there being an immediate answer to counter them. Ignoring all the obvious ways there are to counter sniper the children in these threads conveniently ignore, even if there were no hard counter to a really good sniper that you could pick to immediately neuter their ability to do their job well, sniper is still balanced by virtue of needing lots of skill and practice to play consistently well. Let alone to the god-like level all the crybabies here demand be the assumed baseline for a sniper's performance, despite even "easy headshots" on slow heavies still being easy to miss for even decent snipers. If someone puts hours into practicing sniper to hone their skill at the class, yes, they deserve to be able to do well in a way that there is no easy way for the enemy to counter, especially because even a fair example of the performance of a good sniper is not infallible. What happened to TF2 players hating on Overwatch for it's "rock-paper-scissors, you picked X so I can pick Y to undo everything you do" gameplay? Now that's the kind of gameplay we want TF2 to have? This soldier is too good at rocket jumping, I can't hit him and he just escapes before I can even kill him and that's if he doesn't bomb/market garden me and instakill me. Valve, please add a tractor beam so I can pull them out of the sky and smash them into the ground, otherwise rocket jumping is LITERALLY uncounterable; the amount of skill involved is a non-factor. Demanding players have options to neuter a highly skilled player's capability to do well so that everybody gets a chance for kills no matter what is like asking for there to be reinhardt shields in quake so good players dont drive by insta meatshot you until you've decided you're ready to be vulnerable.

>>717191645
Because bad players think there's nothing you can do (there is), and that other classes don't put you in equally unwinnable situations (they do), so it must be a fundamental flaw of the game. Then they see other terrible players complaining about it and it confirms this reality for them, especially when it's their favorite e-celebs saying the same thing.

>>717191765
>projectile can be, theoretically, juked
>brings the sniper from very long range to medium-long range
>projectile can be airblasted
>projectiles stay visible on hit allies, making it clear an enemy sniper is taking shots
It's great

>>717192409
>>projectile can be, theoretically juked
So can hitscan by baiting their shot to where you want them to think you'll go, and then going somewhere else. Just because it's not as visually apparent doesn't mean it's not a thing. It's all the same mindgames.

>>717191547
The powerful and overbearing nature of the class takes away fun from everyone in the match that's subjected to it. You are constantly made to think about where the Sniper is, whether he's up or in position and if you don't babysit him he rapes the fun out of the match. Can we even fight out in the open or walk through choke without someone getting dropped? No, probably not. It's all the extra caveats that the class forces on you, that you need to take care of him at the back of the map before you can deal with everything in front of you. And even then you're saying at this point it shouldn't go from a 95-5 advantage to a sure kill for getting close to him? I don't even agree with that, I think it's gay. But the power imbalance shouldn't be like that.

I don't know what the fuck you're saying about reload speed or gamesense, it takes him like a second between each shot. Should I play red light green light with the Sniper?

>>717192397
sounds about right. In planetside 2 everyone would bitch about snipers too but I would rarely if ever be killed by them because its so easy to counter them with the smallest amount of brain power

>>717192562
>You are constantly made to think about where the Sniper is
Why is this a problem? I have to think about where everyone is, and Sniper's unique ability to be devastating at long-range adds another layer of depth to the game's moment-to-moment combat which I enjoy.

>it's another reddit anti-sniper crybaby thread
skill issue
t. any non-Sniper class main

Reasons why Sniper is overpowered:
>Vastly superior range compared to rest of cast
>Instantly kills from any range any classbesides like a rev’ed up Brass Beast Heavy and/or Vacc Medic
>Can equip what is essentially a Buff Banner that needs 20 seconds to recharge and can be fully charged by touching resupply
>This version of the Buff Banner also wets players so it spychecks easily and puts out fires too
>In addition to even better Buff Banner, he gets a Melee option that lets him turn minicrits into full crits, with the one downside being you take slightly more damage while you have said melee out
Reasons Sniper isn’t overpowered:
>lmao just git gud (basically hope the opposing Sniper misses)

>>717191645
Simple. Nobody likes being blindsided by something and getting punished for it. Even more so when it comes to games because you are being punished for a "mistake" when said warning or tell wasn't even well telegraphed or even foreshadowed at all. And snipers induce unneeded stress just because how much they influence a map without said warning that they could or couldn't even be there in the first place.

This whole "It takes skill" to pull off is just a cope when only other snipers and maybe air support can properly interact with other sniper characters and nobody is going to waste air support to kill one guy who will just respawn again in 10 seconds. 90% of snipers in games have no movement, if somebody can do a massive amount of damage they either have to get in close, have it be a limited special or shoot a slow moving projectile to which sniper violates all of these practices. His only "weakness" is easily countered with skill and quick scopes while all the other types of weapons or classes have hard counters that are purely mechanical and can't change no matter how skilled you are.

>>717192397
Nice dishonest strawman you got going on. Even when I get blind sided by a scout I could have at least either heard him or I was being punished for not checking my flanks/ advancing too far from my team.

>>717192115
Players complain about anything that kills them regardless of the actual power of the entity. Pyro, Huntsman, and Demoknight are things that really haven't been powerful at any point. Small periods for Demoknight with the OG Tideturner and when he had charge retention. Or Pyro with +50 hp backburner.

>>717192562
>>I don't know what the fuck you're saying about reload speed or gamesense, it takes him like a second between each shot. Should I play red light green light with the Sniper?
That's mainly in the context of aimbotters, but you can peek a Sniper quickly to get a gauge on where his attention is, and then react accordingly, either moving in if he's distracted with a Spy or aiming elsewhere, or holding your position for a few seconds and letting the enemy overextend into you. You can play mindgames with a Sniper and have him focus on you while the rest of your team mops up.

>>717181553 (OP)
factually the most unfun to play against and it's been said about snipers since the dawn of FPS games
i'd rather my entire team get dabbed on by flying soldiers and everything else than get instantly killed after peaking a sightline

>>717192232
People who think like you do are the reason why billionaires get to exist and shit all over you

>B-But they worked so hard to get there!
>They should be allowed to have unchecked power because of how much work they put in

>>717192708
It's a representation of how powerful the class is. The game revolves around the Sniper at that point, I make all of my decisions based on where the Sniper is or what he's doing. I shan't be replying to any other ChatGPT replies.

>>717192794
>Reasons Sniper isn’t overpowered:
>>lmao just git gud (basically hope the opposing Sniper misses)
You also forgot about sightlines, which just amounts to don't play the game until your sniper kills the other guy while the enemy team advances.

>>717181814
I've been complaining about snipers since 2007.

>>717191645
One thing I think I can cede to anti-snipers is that the inherent nature of the role leads to one big gameplay issue; not an issue of balance per se, but an issue of fun. And it's that YOU DON'T KNOW WHEN A SNIPER ISN'T DOING WELL.
Playing against a derpy soldier? you see him run forward blindly and die to his own rockets. Playing against a derpy heavy? You see him try desperately to hit the scout jumping circles around him before dying to a couple meatshots without getting one hit. Playing against a derpy spy? You see them hilariously fail to try and trick you before they pathetically attempt to butterknife you in plain sight of your whole team before they die instantly and quietly switch back to soldier. But unless you're a spy or trolldier, someone in the backline hunting for snipers to get easy kills, 90% of a player's interactions with a sniper is getting killed by one. But because snipers are far away and out of the action, you don't see the 10 missed shots they had to go through to get one successful hit. All a player sees is "what the fuck, I got headshot, literally what was I supposed to do" without even realizing them walking down a hallway in a straight line while checking their phone is the one kill that sniper will get the entire game, and their team is resenting having to play with them.
That's the cause of the insane dissonance where when you join a team and see 3 snipers, you groan because you know your team has 3 dead weights that aren't going to do anything but still take up a player slot, but when you join a game and see 3 snipers on the enemy team suddenly sniper becomes overpowered and way too frustrating to play against. BECAUSE YOU ONLY NOTICE ENEMY SNIPERS WHEN THEY KILL YOU(or when you're in the backline farming them), so it feels like the enemy team has 3 players who you never kill and who never miss a shot on you and always kill you, in a way you can't fight back against. None of that is true, but it's how it feels.

>>717193084
>completely unprompted political sperging out
You woke jokes are really losing your fucking minds after being defeated in the most embarrassing way possible and losing the culture war, huh? I see you fuck ups losing your shit in hentai threads of all places. Enjoy 4 more years of losing or else you are going to give yourself a heart attack.

>>717193136
I only ever hear this argument in competitive (6 vs 6 and 9 vs 9). In a 12 vs 12 public lobby, the chaos is to a Sniper's detriment because of his lack of crowd control ability, making him easily overwhelmed by a competent team and less likely to carry, relative to an equally skilled Soldier or Demo.

>>717193354
honestly anon, this is a pretty good and consise post

>>717193398
That is why sniper is on a team. Sniper is like a parasite who benefits from the team most while doing as little as possible for them aside from maybe targeting the medic or top players but at that point he is just playing the game and not really doing team work.

>>717193354
Well said, but this should already be obvious to everyone. There's nothing inherently more unfair about getting headshot by a Sniper you didn't know was there compared to a Soldier blind bombing you from around a corner with two rockets synced up for you. Unwinnable situations are rampant in TF2, and people just think Snipers are taking over matches when it's always just one team being better than the other.

>>717193718
>Be sniper
>Take out engineer or sentry from afar during a push
>Take out medic hiding behind team
>Durr sniper is just a parasite
Come on dude

>>717193854
Should be required viewing in every school.

>>717192176
>He's not fun to fight against
Yes he is lol. Targeting snipers as a demo or spy and getting them to rage quit is an amazing feeling , hell just harassing them with flares is hilarious. So many snipers under estimate being able to hit flares from far away

>Getting domed by a sniper instantly
Tf2 has a ton of insta kill mechanics from crits to backstabs to headshot to airblasted into the environment , sniper headshots are one of many

>>717194496
>Proving my point
Maybe you should learn to read instead of being angry all day everyday. Team players do something "unfun" like throwing a sandvich, using airblast to put out fires or doing something that directly interacts with the other team mates to help like medic or engineer building teleports. Sniper doesn't do any of that other then maybe throw a bottle of piss. He is just playing the game if he is or isn't helping his team.

>>717195093
giving teamplay/support mechanics like banners and healthpacks to non-support classes objectively made the game worse

>>717193084
Your response would begin to make sense if people's lives depended on being able to get kills in TF2, I guess. Then, yeah, it would be bad for poorly skilled players to not have a way to get kills even if other players were better than them.
But that's not the case, and highly-skilled players do deserve to do better than lower skilled players. Even then, I could concede that if Sniper had a mechanic where for every kill he gets 150 permanent overheal gets added onto his health, something like that would be overpowered even though it's "skill-based". So that might be something like a billionaire having "unchecked power". But a good sniper being able to use his skill to kill people in a way they don't have an immediate option to consistently deny him is not poor design. If you don't take individual skill into account in the game's design, it all just becomes complicated rock-paper-scissors.
Stupid image, by the way. What is the "economy" being measured by here? Stock market value? GDP? Average cost of living? And yes, even if the "economy" was slightly stalled by the implementation of tariffs it doesn't affect me even if my portfolio would have been higher sooner without them because now my country gets all the benefits of tariffing foreign markets without the apocalyptic economic crash everyone was predicting would happen if we tariffed vietnamese sweatshop sneakers 0.0001%.

>>717193854
>ha ha, the soldier is a baby because he only has 50 HP left and now would just be better off dead instead of running back to base or calling the medic to be killed by said sniper
>Just ignore how they are rarely ever at full health anyway due to rocket jumping or being in fights all the time
Your average sniper main everyone, thinking sniper is balanced by thinking in a vacuum and not how actual games work.

>>717195227
Ok, but that isn't the argument here, is it?

>>717195093
>Proving your point
No I didn't you're just too retarded to understand that team support isn't just applying passive effects or healing. The game is team Fortress 2, the goal is achieving an objective with the team. Taking out medics, engines, and nests for a push is a team play. Your extra chromosomal IQ simply can't process this fact

>>717195483
And you failing to understand how the game works and what game design is doesn't make my argument any less true.

TF2 mechanics beautifully come together to create the easiest sniper in all of gaming gameplay wise
Nothing comes even close to how brain-dead he is to play

Sniper has to exist because otherwise the game would just be everyone hovering around the middle of the map like flies around a garbage can.

Sniper forces you to go
>if I stand around in the open I will die
>if I have to constantly be moving toward someplace what's a good option?
and then as if by magic everyone is flowing toward the objective, since unless you're just fucking around (common enough but not that common) that's the smartest place to go.

Yes I know dying to hitscan man who can kill you anywhere on the map fucking sucks, but it sucks a lot less than this game turning into knucklehead DM fests.

>>717195723
>My retarded ass doesn't know what game design is therefore you don't either
Okay fag, keep seething over sniper mains though

>>717197167
It's true, you don't know game design. And why would I be seething over a people I have zero respect for?

>Chip damage unscopes him
There, fixed it.

>>717197495
>team that has a Sniper has one less frontline or support class to worry about
>can effectively take away the ability of a Sniper to do his job by having a brain and concentrating
So what ends up happening for competent teams is they dominate the frontline by having 1 more frontline/support class than the team with a Sniper, then pop up in the Sniper's face once he has no one around him to protect him, making him an easy kill.

>>717181995
>play 2fort
>entire map is a sniper point

>>717197821
>he's balanced because instead of being contested as a power class he's now uncontested in the backline providing a unique function
huh?????

>>717181553 (OP)
Minicrit on headshot instead of full crit.

Just bomb him

>>717197821
>sniper mains once again proving they know nothing at all about game design.

>>717197938
>uncontested
So? Medic and Engineer are uncontested and protected by their team too. I would argue Spy as well since he ideally only makes his presence felt when it's too late. Classes 1-5 are in the frontlines and flanks, while 6-9 rely on their teammates to either heal (medic,engi) or assassinate (spy,sniper).
>unique function
Every class has something they do that's somewhat unique, that's the whole point of classes. It's like having different enemy types to fight and strategize against. That's what makes him fun and interesting. If Sniper didn't exist, the game would be both less intense and complex.

>>717198354
I have a total of 30 hours on Sniper in 7200 hours total.

>>717198279
>just perform a suicide attack which has a high chance of being disrupted by his teammates to maybe get a kill assuming no sentries on him
he respawns and walks through a teleporter and goes back to the 0 iq bot like activity that is quickscoping

>>717198429
Even if I believed you, that still means nothing when it comes to understanding game design.

>>717198650
Upon checking, it's 48.8 hours actually, so you can get the win since I lied.

>>717181702
>respect his sightline
Nice meme faggot
>>717181814
People have complained about snipers in fps games before tf2 was even made you child.

>>717190905
>damage protection
I have a problem with this in general, the very nanosecond a spy starts going invisible he gets a 20% damage resistance, it doesn't happen often but it fucks with sniper quickscopes

>>717198858
>so you can get the win
I just said I don't care what your hours are. There is nothing to be gained here.

>>717198359
Engineer's shit collapses the moment he stops watching his sentry and medic is always the most vulnerable person on the field
They have glaring weaknesses meanwhile sniper's weaknesses get naturally covered for without even trying
Sniper literally slows the fucking game down by controlling main, what the fuck are you on about

>>717184696
>You're right, people complained that their team had too many Snipers because they were easy kills.
They complained about both things you idiot.

>>717181814
It's hilarious how /v/ only complained about soldier, demo and pyro way back then and now out of the blue sniper is all they cry about.
And it's not even about the class itself, they just saw what the skill ceiling of it was with the bots and think anyone can play at a TAS level so the class should disappear.

>>717199001
I find it funny that uber was created for heavy/ sentry busting and so was random crits yet the only consideration they ever had for sniper was that "people would not learn to get good with sniper" to balance him out.

>>717199131
People still cry about soldier but it's at least more respected because from the start he was meant to be the over powered class. People just feel bad for demo with how many fun items of his got nerfed. Nobody bitched about pyro.

>>717199006
Nowhere near at comparable rates to now. The complaints were far and away more one-sided toward "ugh, my team has too many Snipers". Sniper whiners always existed in multiplayer games, no one's saying otherwise, but it's only been a recent phenomenon in TF2 where it's this big campaign or movement.

>>717199131
Every class played at tas level requires turbo autistic strats, exceptional positioning and game sense
Sniper? You just spam quickscopes, all that matters is quickscope aim, no brain activity needed, just be in the very obviously telegraphed sniper sightlines

>>717199378
>but it's only been a recent phenomenon in TF2
That's because they nerfed all the items that other classes used to deal with sniper. Flare gun was my go to only second to sandman. Sandman is a joke and dangershield hard counters pyro.

>>717199532
Since it's so easy why does no one get anywhere close to a TAS level then?

What's the point of these sniper whining threads when Valve has pretty much given up on making any further balance changes to the game

>>717199532
why should '''''tas level''''' even be considered when balancing a game

>>717199598
It's much easier to grind yourself into being a top tier sniper than it is to do so for any other class, aim is all you need and there's a billion aim trainers and maps out there
It doesn't happen because the class is fucking boring, once you mastered the quickscope timing you know everything there is to know about the class

>>717199546
Fully agree with that. Revert everything.

>>717199760
If your class is so fucking soulless and devoid of thought that a bot that follows a navmesh can play it nigh perfectly there clearly is a design problem there

>>717193354
>>717192931
These.

And even more importantly for a video game: its simply not fun. Not fun to play against, not fun to play with, it just something that rarely if ever gets interacted with and that interaction is almost always negative. Like, I used to be a spy main and used to clear entire nests of snipers alone but it always felt less rewarding gutting them like a cornish game hen, than getting a double stab off on a medic+heavy couple. It simply doesn't feel impactful. Like, they are going to respawn and they are going to be trudging back and forth in their little cove anyway even if I kill them the exact same way three or five or seven times. In other games too. Snipers should be a rare, impactful, difficult niche, getting off a single game-turning shot on a HVT after lots of sneaking and camouflage an deception and difficult calculations. You know, like a real sniper. I could see a sniper in a Battlefield-like game easily like that. TF2 is turning two decades old soon, so any rework or change is brutally pointless now though.

>>717199546
>Sandman is a joke
As it should be, it's a shame they made it useless but stuns don't belong in tf2.
Both shields are atrocities though and I don't know what they were thinking with them.

>>717199378
>Nowhere near at comparable rates to now.
Snipers players got better and aimbotting became more common. Really it's fucking obvious that sniper hate got more popular thanks to the bots.

>>717199910
what the fuck is this retarded argument lmao
>uhhh the class is le soulless because hackers use it

>>717199910
Sniper's contribution to thought is in the enemy's interaction with him moreso than in playing the class, which is why I don't care for playing Sniper, but love playing and strategizing against him.

>>717199954
Sniper players got better, but so did every other class. The Sniper hate is from the bots, yes, but also e-celebs confirming the biases of bad players.

>>717200114
>Sniper players got better, but so did every other class.
Sniper gets far greater returns for getting good.

>>717200204
I'd agree with that since Sniper has a higher skill ceiling (which is why bots use him), but not enough to warrant the hate, and we shouldn't be balancing the game around cheaters.

>>717200034
It's not that hackers use it, it's that hackers can completely outsource any thoughts involved to a basic script
Cheat on any other class and you're still subject to all those mechanics that don't exist on sniper that require a modicum of tactics

>>717199953
I don't mind the stun being taken out, it could have replaced it with anything else like no reloads or jumping but it's a slow effect that doesn't even work properly.

>>717200204
this is only true if your only standard for "good" is good aiming

>>717199953
They could rework the Sandman to be damage based and function similarly to the crusader’s crossbow.
The baseball at closer ranges will do less damage than the bobble+bleed but do way more damage at longer ranges.

>>717200034
He's right. You've got a class that soulless a literal robot can play it.

>>717181553 (OP)
>how would you rework sniper?
huntsman only. basically all existing snipers are turned into bows.

>>717200303
it should have been a funny knockback bat and ball.
annoying, liable to cause environmental kills, and would fit snugly the established movement-based combat that TF2 is built around, unlike the stun which removed movement.

>>717200446
and you'll having people whining that they're getting killed while not even being in their line of sight due to the Huntsman's hitbox.

>>717181814
>muh yootoober bogeyman
kys retard

>>717200362
what about medic bots? that's a thing too.
and what about heavy? with an aimbot he's even easier than sniper
have you considered that the bot hosters kept using sniper because they piss you off

>>717181553 (OP)
did this game get called out for a fuck ton of pedos playing it at some point?

>>717200291
>and we shouldn't be balancing the game around cheaters.
If cheating can't be prevented then yes you should. At the very least introducing mechanics that creates limits on how effective a cheater can be.

Take pyro for example. Yeah you can run a cheat that guarantees reflects. But then he's still be vulnerable to any hitscan.

>>717200601
>If cheating can't be prevented then yes you should.
god I'm so fucking glad you're not responsible for balancing

>>717181702
Fucking retard.

>>717181814
anon, people were complaining about sniper before TF2 was even out. Literally the first iteration of it back in the quake mod was drawing ire, and it took hold as the FPS generation of consoles started to become popular in the early 2000s.
The devs are fully aware of how much people hate snipers, and even reference it with stuff like the FOAD billboard.

>>717200542
>Medic bot
Will never outmatch what an actual medic can do and everyone loves medic.
>Heavybot
Extremely rare and is still countered as long as the enemy team doesn't play around protecting his ass.

>>717200542
>what about medic bots? that's a thing too.
>and what about heavy? with an aimbot he's even easier than sniper
Yeah Heavy does kind of suck too. Not even the biggest fan of Medic either but at the very least you do need to be good at moving around as medic in order to avoid getting killed.

>have you considered that the bot hosters kept using sniper because they piss you off
No they use them because they're easily the most abuseable class to bot. I actually hate heavy more but sniper would be far more effective.

>>717181553 (OP)
The game would be 10000x more fun without him except for the tryhard faggots who get off playing a class with options for every encounter and counters for every counter, can oneshot high value targets by judt clicking on them (spy actually has to work for his kills and to get away without getting owned). Sniper mains are all terrible people anyways, they should be cucked HARD.

>>717200593
It did kek. It's still full of pedos, bots, and cheaters too.

>>717200542
before speed and crit hacking were made much harder to do, you'd see way more cheating heavies than snipers because he does so much damage

>>717200642
You're so fucking glad you had to deal with years of bot abuse?

Even valve probably regrets not designing sniper better. Remember he's the class that actually considered not putting in the game during development and that was BEFORE the bots caused hell.

the only actual problem with sniper is that you have to actively pick sniper, either by hard class loadouts or by shitty weapon limits so you can't just pull out your sniper sitting in your inventory of multiple big guns like in an arena fps and countersnipe

>>717200860
>Will never outmatch what an actual medic
irrelevant. non-bot aimbotting snipers are also much more effective than the bots
>Extremely rare
also irrelevant lol
>and is still countered as long as the enemy team doesn't play around protecting his ass.
this is also true of the sniper bots though? I had the displeasure of trying to play this game when the bots were still rampant and they would still die because not only were their pathing shit but you could exploit the sniper's weaknesses (which do exist despite how much you want to deny it) to kill him

>>717200849
It's only gotten worse
>Here is a sniper rifle that you have to find in the arena that two taps people at full HP in a game with lots of movement
>You now start off with a sniper rifle that can one tap if you land a headshot in a game with movement
>You now start off with a sniper rifle that can just body shot people with one hit in a slow movement game

>>717191645
nobody likes to get one shot by some dipshit on other side of the map while they were just trying to play the game. doesn't matter how much "skill" is involved it just sucks especially on maps that are glorified sightlines.

>>717200849
Yes, console shooters where your only option once caught on in the open by a Sniper is to run forward predictably in the direction your player model is facing while not being able to shoot back or aim down sights and shoot him (and pray the Sniper doesn't kill your stationary ass first). In TF2, you have airstrafing movement, the ability to move at full speed omni-directionally, and lots of class-specific movement options, and low inertia on your movement so you're less predictable, all while being able to shoot and reload your own weapon at the same time.

>>717201130
>irrelevant.
Not only is it 100% relevant the entire argument is about how both players and bots play the class the exact same. Why do you people constantly have to lie and be dishonest about everything?

>>717201058
>You're so fucking glad you had to deal with years of bot abuse?
I'm glad there wasn't a fucking retard like you at Valve who took a hacking problem and managed to turn it into a fucking balancing issue.
It's very telling to me that there are countless games where hacking is an issue (even more than in TF2 now that the bots are gone) and this is the only one where I see people unironicaly say it's a balancing thing. If they nerf sniper the hackers will switch to heavy (assuming they nerf it to the point of uselessness, because that's literally the only way to make it impossible to be exploitable by aimbots) and if you nerf heavy people will say you're retarded because why the fuck would you nerf heavy. You're a fucking retard.

>>717201343
replace "irrelevant" with "also true of snipers so your argument is completely invalid" because apparently you can't fucking read

>>717201357
No other class is so unrestrained that they'd btfo servers instantly
Cope all you want about it, every class has actual checks and balances while sniper is a falloff less hitscan class that hits hard

>>717201058
The bot abuse could've been prevented, not by removing Sniper, but by reverting to Quickplay and getting rid of matchmaking. The same reason bots aren't able to take over community servers is the same reason why catbots only started the moment Meet Your Match came out - it all comes down to how servers get populated in matchmaking vs. ad-hoc connections. Once a server is full, like populated community servers and Quickplay servers, it's impossible for cheater bots to take over a server since they'll get kicked one-by-one, and banned by an admin in the case of community servers. With matchmaking, all the players fill in the server at the same time, meaning a wave of 6 could join and just take over the server.

>>717201357
>If they nerf sniper the hackers will switch to heavy
First, they'd switch to amby spy. Second the game would unironically be more fun without sniper and heavy slowing the combat down constantly.

>>717201565
no cope needed, at the end of the day the bots are gone so it's not like your argument could ever hold any weight and sniper will continue not being nerfed

>>717201250
>nobody likes to get instakilled by a sticky trap they had no idea was on the other side of the corner
Ban Demoman

>>717201476
>Accusing others of not being able to read when you can't either
Yup, you snipers really are brain dead.

>>717201580
No you're right. Both things are cancer that ended up enabling a super cancer together.

>>717201565
His entire argument is surrounded the fact that bots existed. I honestly don't know what he is trying to get at because he thinks an actual human can perform better then an aimbot sniper. I think he is just have a completely melty at this point.

>>717201645
>First, they'd switch to amby spy.
alright I get it I'm talking to a legitimate fucking retard then, fair enough. again, very happy you don't work at valve.
>>717201698
maybe read past the one word you don't like and try actually addressing the things I said. I'm assuming you have no interest in that since you immediately switched to "durr ur dumb and dishonest" as soon as you saw an opportunity to

>>717201675
>sniper mains proving that once again they don't actually know balance and game design because they play a class that has zero risk

>>717201675
False equivalence, fucking retard. A demoman has to dedicate his stickies to one point to possibly get one kill, if he fails, he doesn't get a second chance, he has to pivot. A sniper just waits like 2 seconds and gets another shot from perfect safety 1000km away from you and then just gets his free one shot.

>>717201909
>"balance and game design" and it's just "I don't like him because he makes me feel bad :("
it's so funny how you pretend there's actual merit to the garbage you say

>Be dumb and dishonest
>Get called out for being dumb and dishonest
>Accuse the other people of being dumb and dishonest
lmao. No wonder corpos cater the hardest towards sniper mains with skins.

Huntsman sniper is not fine but also fun.

>>717201993
You love drinking lead paint and licking power outlets, dont you? Sniper mains are such fucking imbeciles

>>717201883
Actually explain why they wouldn't switch to amby spy. Even with the nerf an amby spy constantly getting headshots can fuck you up and if you're aimbotting you're going to go with whatever with whatever is the biggest upgrade for perfect aim, which is going to be hitscan headshot bonuses.

>>717201968
Sniper mains have reached a point that they understand ZERO things about game design and risk management and think the game should be centered around them getting easy kills because it takes "skill".

>>717202089
I've played against hacking spies before and they're legitimately more dangerous with the stock revolver

>perfect scout gameplay
Masterfully dodging shots, knowing when to strike
>Perfect soldier gameplay
Knowing the enemy's blind spots, knowing when and where to jump, predicting enemy awareness all to create beatiful bombs
>Perfect demo gameplay
Zoning everyone with stickies and outplaying them to have them exactly where you want them

>Perfect sniper gameplay
Right click left click quickscope spam while waving your mouse over heads in a position where no one can threaten you

>>717202197
How? They do more damage on average with the amby.

Just rework/remove Danger Shield and Razorback. It's annoying enough that he's the mapwide instakill class, but his counters have been nerfed over the years, AND he can flip off his remaining ones with the backpacks.

>>717201675
yes sticky traps are annoying same with spys and other one hit bullshit. but unlike sniper spies and demos have a lot more counterplay and can easily be punished for risky plays.

>>717202381
they don't, actually. revolver has better dps.

>>717202381
ambassador fires slower, needs to recover accuracy between headshots (slower than the firing rate too), crits have damage falloff, and they cannot be combined with crithacks.
revolver fires faster, can hack to remove random spread, and pumps out more-damaging crits which could be manipulated by cheats too.

>>717202567
>and pumps out more-damaging crits which could be manipulated by cheats too.
I can buy that pushing revolver on top but we're talking about aimbotting here.

I would do absolutely nothing because getting instantly headshot by a crackshot sniper is no different to getting raped by perfect pills, meatshots and rockets when you encounter sufficiently skilled players
and the sniper is the only one of these who is an easy kill at medium to close range several weapons exist just to counter him such as ringer ambassador spy, scorch shot and, wouldn't you believe it, rockets

>>717202698
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cR2SaW-TPgs
TL;DW: Ambassador is slightly better DPS but only at mid-range and only after hitting several headshots in a row. Even with aimbotting there's no reason to no just go for stock.

>>717181553 (OP)
Snipers are allowed to camp
Simple as

>>717202923
>no different
Anyone playing those other classes makes themselves vulnerable in order to hit you, sniper doesn't
Meanwhile good fucking luck retaliating against a sniper covered by his team and a sentry
He's by no means an easy kill, he can 150 you without limits

>>717202950
If it's a question of wanting to have better damage at long range you wouldn't be aimbotting with heavy anyway.

>>717203132
how am I vulnerable as a demoman with 175 HP when I'm spamming pills at a chokepoint while hugging a dispenser

I also hate sniper and sniper mains because their mains are all the hugest faggots in existence. Willing to shittalk and whine about other classes being op, but the second you point out that they're the least risky and most rewarding class they whine and whine and whine. No other class changes how the map is played like sniper. The game almost revolves around sniper. Removing him would just make everyone else except for the special snowflake sniper main who wants to sit in one spot and click heads 500000000 million thousand miles away with a razorback on in perfect safety hidden behind his team. Selfish awful class.

>>717203484
>*gets backstabbed*
>*gets crocketed*
>*gets SNIPED*
>*gets uberpushed*
And what does sniper have to worry about? Getting sniped? Lol

>>717203484
How are you achieving anything while being so far back?
You're not
Sniper can

>>717202923
>Sniper babies once again showing that they have no knowledge of the game

>>717203524
I also hate how throughout TF2s entire history sniper was only nerfed once and that was to prevent bots from quickscopping. Machina is pretty much a straight upgrade unless you are playing on a map where sniper could be in more then two positions.

>>717203132
the sniper must be where the action is to make anything happen, he is as much vulnerable to being pummeled by projectiles or surprise attacked by a scout as anyone else. one scorch shot his way puts him out of commission until he walks into a medpack.
always being covered by team mates and even a sentry is not realistic during many sections of a map, and if we go there, why wouldn't the others have help as well
a headshot when he is getting shot at at medium to close range by a moving enemy is very very hard to do. actually scratch that, if a scout, soldier or demo is in range of you, you are dead unless you get really lucky. that's not strong. they all have the means to get to you while avoiding your line of fire or they can just push past it with exceptional movement. if I know a snipers position, I'll just enter by rocketjumping and pummel him. he can't tank it.
>>717203976
I don't think you do, because the only thing you guys ever talk about is defensive positions with utopistic conditions. your engineer and other team don't care about you, they're not your bodyguards. you will be flanked, and anyone who gets past your line will get you.

>>717203484
If you’re spamming spills at a choke point, the enemy can just go in between shots and when you’re reloading, then fire back. They are also not instakills unless you’re a Spy/Scout using specific unlocks as pipes only deal 100 damage.

>>717203636
why can't a sniper be victim of any of those things? lol he's just as exposed as the demo is in this scenario. hell, if he's hugging a dispenser he's probably in a position that is very hard to get sniped in, you don't make sentry nests out in the open.
>>717203687
trust me, spamming pipes at a chokepoint is the easiest way to farm kills in this game. talking as someone who plays a lot of hybrid knight demo.

tf2 is a projectile/short range hitscan game
so huntsman only but using the actual hitbox instead of the collision box
synder sleeper gets to stay

put dispenser here

>>717204398
>the enemy can just go in between shots
are you forgetting about rollers? also you can't just "fire back," there's an entire team trying to push/defend the chokepoint. if you're just gonna ignore the entire rest of the team like that then I can also say that about the sniper.

>>717204406
>why can't a sniper be victim of any of those things?
Because sniper is 500miles away for one you stupid moron? Demoman is actually there playing the game with the enemy team, his spot in this scenario relies on the dispenser staying around and him not you know, getting btfo by all those things i mentioned. It's not even close to the same amount of risk.

>>717189651
>First revolver shot
Still scoped in
>Second revolver shot
Realises someone is behind him
>Third revolver shot
Dead

Sniper isn't hard to kill as spy

>>717204614
>Demoman is actually there playing the game with the enemy team
yeah and your own team you stupid moron. why is it okay to say "erm the sniper is very hard to get to because he's protected by his team" but not okay to say other classes in TEAM fortress 2 also benefit from being close to their own team?
I'm thinking about a very specific scenario here: the chokepoint that leads to the last capture point in the first stage of Hoodoo. if you're on blu there's a little spot right before it where you can place a dispenser and your entire team can camp there. even without an engineer that choke is fucking impossible to get through due to the sheer projectile spam. and, more importantly, it's pretty much impossible to get sniped there unless you peek into last which you have no reason to do, and there's even that one little tunnel blu can get through that is very hard to hold as sniper.

here is the main argument against sniper
>some people are too good at the game
very compelling

>>717186403
>valve puts in a nuclear bomb weapon that kills everyone instantly
>I am so tired of Nu-TF2 players who want to nerf and remove shit from the game instead of getting good and engaging with the game on it's own terms, stop being such a pathetic bitch about a 20 year old game.
ok

ITT: Sniper chads continue to live rent free in the heads of shitters despite objectively being a weak class for anyone with more than a couple hundred hours in spy, demo, soldier, or even pyro

You love to see it

>>717205005
So one specific instance you can think of vs every single map with sniper? Yeah not convinced

>>717205138
No amount of skill removes bullet spread, projectile travel time or damage falloff
What's the limiter of sniper that keeps him in check?

>>717205627
play sniper to counter sniper.
>"but i suck"
there you go

>>717204591
No, because rollers are fucking tiny, have a set detonation, and only deal 30 damage, which means even you get hit by a roller at full health, only light classes would then be killed by a follow up direct hit.

>>717205941
So there isn't one?
Why else would you admit he's so cancerous that he introduces this awful dynamic where you wrestle over who gets to terrorise the other team?

It wouldn't be so bad if community maps these days weren't so open ended that sometimes you get shit like spawn to spawn sniping in the really bad examples.

>>717206389
why can't you just play spy and counter sniper?
>"he is using razorback though"
damn nigger you got a revolver

>>717181814
>sniper till retarded youtubers did in like 2017
Holy hell how old are you

>>717206506
>Just win against a sniper hiding in a sentry sightline and the entire team you alerted while playing as spy
You don't really play this game against players do you?

>>717204358
>No, only you have utopic situations!
lmao, cry more bitch baby. And you are really fucking stupid using engineer as a body guard example when sentries exist.

>>717206609
learn to play spy
>"but there are 5 sentries and 15 pyros protecting the sniper"
damn that sucks! where is your team?

>>717204449
lmao, even your "sniper is actually balanced" meme is a fucking mess of mental gymnastics. Are all of you just lefties who can't meme?

>>717206709
>The entire team should be backing up spy to do his job, the lone wolf character!
You can't be real.

>>717206709
>I will overcome my severe disadvantage with the power of friendship!!!
Defensive coordination happens naturally and it massively benefits the sniper
You're not fucking winning that fight

All these words for a class that is literally countered by gitting guud. Or just pick Sniper yourself.

>>717206915
>>717206835
now say that again without sounding mad

>waaah waaah sniper is overpowered
Why's he off-class in competitive and rare there?
>waah waah he's OP in casual
Like a conch box soldier? Or a natascha heavy? Maybe a soda popper scout? Eyelander demoknight? They're not overpowered if it's relying on the inexperience of players to stomp.
>nooooo there's no counterplay to sniper he just instakills me!!!
If you walk in a straight line or aren't paying attention, sure. You can move your head hitbox, you can listen for shots and time it, you can coordinate with your team, you can spam his location or suspected locations.
>WAAAAH THAT MAKES IT HARD TO AIM
>WAAAH HE'S TOO QUIET CUS HE'S FAR AWAY
>WAAAAH IT'S TOO HARD TO COORDINATE IN PUBS
>WAAAAAH I SHOULD BE ABLE TO JUST WALK UP AND KILL HIM
>IT'S NOT FAAAAAAIR I SHOULD JUST BE ABLE TO GET INTO HIS RANGE AND KILL HIM AND HE SHOULDN'T BE ABLE TO DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT!!!!
You just need to get better at the game then.

Sniper is NOT overpowered. YOU are underpowered. Stop blaming it on a 17 year old hat trading simulator.

I mostly play 5cp maps and havent really had issues with snipers since they actually have to like move around the map so they have to be REALLY good to even be slightly annoying especially given the flank routes of the maps generally. Seems VERY map dependent desu

>>717206957
Damn I didn't know I can make my shotgun spread tighter by just being good!!! Thanks for the tip kind stranger here's your Reddit gold!!!

>>717206997
Stop playing against bots

>>717207085
now say that again without crying

>>717207180
>"tf2 has a bot problem please save us gaben!!!"
>"STOP PLAYING AGAINST BOTS"
pick a lane tf2 sister

>>717207186
If you were good at sniping you wouldn't be playing TF2
Literal codslop makes sniping harder

And sniper mains are onto the ad hominin

>>717207301
if you were good at the game, you wouldn't be crying

>>717207301
>Less ammo
>Slower scope ins with sway
lmao, you are 100% correct.

>>717207371
>ad hominin
xir, you are having an estrogen overdose and hallucinating

>>717207409
So you concede? You know, with your completely worthless posts you might as well have
You can't beat your limiting mechanics no matter how hard you try
Sniper can get good at close range quickscopes

>>717207569
I accept your concession that you are crying.

>heavy main: big chungus furry
>medic main: helpful furry
>pyro main: le randumb furry
>sniper main: edgelord tryhard furry

>>717207451
I meant more like everyone can rape you with 600 rpm guns that 5 shot you

>>717207637
you're the one white knighting for the easiest sniper in all of multiplayer

>>717207805
then why don't you play it doe

ITT: crying about an 18 year old game's mechanics

>>717207880
I have dignity and want to have fun you shameless chink
Sniper is diametrically opposed to both

>>717208035
it sounds like a skill issue, why can't you counter the sniper?

I think we should make the dumbass fanmade brick wall 10th class official because it weakens snipers and looks really funny

>>717208074
I don't want to have to do it?
Sniper adds nothing to the game, he's so fucking strong and easy he outright makes any open main areas unplayable

>>717181553 (OP)
I wouldn't, I'm not a shitter

>>717208221
see >>717208074

I just wish the Darwin didn't completely invalidate flares by being immune to afterburn
The point of them is trying to disrupt the enemy Sniper on the approach, even for a little while
But the Danger Shield just completely stuffs flares for no good reason

>>717207927
Thing about said 18 year old game mechanics is that said mechanics were designed around toaster computers and people having the skills of a toddler.
Now those toasters can run 10 instances of Crysis at max graphics and those toddlers are all grown up with skills to be at the very least competent. And to boot, there are way more cheats out in the wild, so you don't even have to be competent and just install some aimbot and autocrits.

>>717208221
>he outright makes any open main areas unplayable
so how come cp_orange was one of the most popular community maps for years? surely snipers would make it unplayable for everyone else

>>717208261
>putting up with annoying trash is a symbol of skill over just wanting it gone
I'm completely certain that mindset being on your parents' minds is why you weren't aborted

>>717208465
>servers that attracted subhuman skill level tards with barely functioning hardware didn't have an issue with sniper
duh

>>717208465
>2007
>average gamer resolution was like 1024x768
>TF2's default pov was also extremely low
>people played on thinkpads and shit at a cinematic 27 fps
>twitch aiming was not a common skill
>most of the gaming scene did not take TF2 seriously because of its art style
You dont need to look at TF2 for evidence of this. Even back then the CS scene was nowhere close to the level it's at today.

>>717208465
>so how come cp_orange was one of the most popular community maps for years?
One of the first changes made n cp_orange variants made was adding trenches to avoid sniper sightlines. Plenty of orange servers also restricted the fuck out of sniper players.

>>717181553 (OP)
Literally just play medic if you don't want to lose. Sniper cannot quick scope any of the classes if they have overheal. The hard counter to sniper is wasting his time and making sure he has to scope in and charge all of his shots. He's a sitting duck for scouts and spies.
>B-but
No. If you can't play around a class, play their counter.

>>717210068
>If you can't play around a class, play their counter.
Okay, I'll use the Ambassador
>nerfed
I'll go Caber instead
>nerfed
Sandman?
>nerfed
Can I at least harass him with flares
>Danger Shield
For fuck's sake can I just backstab him
>Razorback

>>717210214
>He can't read
Medic is his counter retard, I cannot spell it out any more than that.

>>717210068
>Literally just play medic if you don't want to lose. Sniper cannot quick scope any of the classes if they have overheal.
Too bad the sniper will instead be shooting at you, who can be taken out with a quick scope headshot.

>>717210356
You do not have to be in a sniper sight line to heal people in the sniper sight line, the medigun is designed for this explicitly. If you're still getting shot because you can't help yourself from walking into a sniper sight line, use the vaccinator and he'll literally never kill you again. jfc I swear none of you retards actually play the game

>>717210275
As a medic main, you're so full of shit

>>717210214
damn I have NEVER fucking seen a scout, soldier, demoman, spy, or fucking medic with crossbow EVER fucking kill a sniper in my LIFE, it doesn't happen. Every single person who ever picks sniper immediately gains the ability to instakill anybody within 6,000 hammer units and the only counterplay is a deal with the devil. Truly, sniper players have been plaguing the game for nearly 2 decades with nobody ever having been able to kill one ONCE. In the history of the game. Because of how immeasurably powerful he is.

>>717210474
The sniper is protected by the following:
50 hawks
10 alligators
3 bears
7 bulls
10 wolves
10000 rats
5 gorillas
and 4 lions

>>717210571
If you main medic and don't think this is true you've learned nothing about your main, be better at games or give up. This class ain't for you

>>717210601
Truly the most overpowered class in the game.

>>717210474
>You do not have to be in a sniper sight line to heal people in the sniper sight line
You do if you want to follow your targets into battle, which was the entire point about medic and what makes him fun.
>use the vaccinator
You're now fighting cancer with cancer and the entire game suffers as a result.

See the problem with sniper isn't that he's good at long range, he should be. It's that his weakness, close range is completely negated with jarate + bushwhacka.

>>717210625
Sniper's biggest value in tf2 is being able to take out medics.

>>717210601
>"WHAT THE HELL WAS I SUPPOSED TO DO?"

>>717210601
For me, it's 10,000 rats and 10 wolves.

>>717210719
Follow them in with an uber. If you're pushing a sightline choke without an uber you deserve to die
>You're now fighting cancer with cancer and the entire game suffers as a result.
playing counter is not cancer, it's the gameplay the entire game is built around. Play to win or keep complaining, I don't really care. You've outed yourself as someone I'd never want to heal anyway.

>>717210719
>You do if you want to follow your targets into battle, which was the entire point about medic and what makes him fun.
this isn't how anyone who's good at medic has pretty much ever played medic. You stay out of the way 90% of the game you're not ubering.

Or maybe you could just git gud?

The "fighting sniper" experience
>first he kills you before you see him because far away people are hard to see
>ready for him now, this time stay in cove-wait no you have to leave cover to play the objective
>ok, flank him first and-oh yeah the enemy's side of the map is where the whole enemy team is
>ok, ask a medic to pocket you so you can-do you think this is fucking comp, be glad if your team has a med at all
>ok, play counter-sniper
>round devolves into 2fort

>>717210820
I cannot stress this enough, you do not need to be in a sniper sight line to heal people. Your gun has range, use it idiot. Push with uber, fight with your team in the places the sniper can't see. It's not hard.

>>717211050
just nothing you can do, right?

>>717210896
Needing to wait for an uber ever time you enter the main battle sounds incredibly impractical. Also in any disorganised game when you do or don't push is very much at the mercy of your pockets' whim.
>>717210930
Sounds incredibly boring and sounds like valve completely failed at their explicit design goal with medic.
>>717211051
Then why is Sniper's biggest value in tf2 his effectiveness at taking out medics if by your argument he shouldn't be at all good at that if the medic is playing properly?

>>717211051
NOOOOOO YOU CANT JUST EXPECT ME TO ENGAGE IN ENVIRONMENTAL AWARENESS AS A MEDIC MY JOB IS TO STICK NEXT TO THE HEAVY LIKE AN ANAL POLYP

>>717211305
>Then why is Sniper's biggest value in tf2 his effectiveness at taking out medics if by your argument he shouldn't be at all good at that if the medic is playing properly?
Because the average medic isn't playing properly.

>>717211443
We're talking competitive level play here. They don't consider sniper bad.

>>717211305
>Needing to wait for an uber ever time you enter the main battle sounds incredibly impractical
40 seconds. That's what you're complaining about. zoom zoom
>by your argument he shouldn't be at all good at that if the medic is playing properly?
Yes. If you have map awareness and know your class a sniper will never see you. The sniper cannot kill what he cannot see.

>>717211587
>40 seconds.
That's pretty long by the standards of a fast paced shooter.
>Yes. If you have map awareness and know your class a sniper will never see you. The sniper cannot kill what he cannot see.
You didn't answer the question
>Then why is Sniper's biggest value in tf2 his effectiveness at taking out medics if by your argument he shouldn't be at all good at that if the medic is playing properly?

>>717211739
>That's pretty long by the standards of a fast paced shooter.
The game has a round timer, for a single checkpoint of payload you can build 5 ubers. Get some adderall.
>You didn't answer the question
I did. Stay out of his sight line, you don't need to be there. Why are you having so much trouble with this?

>>717211936
>for a single checkpoint of payload you can build 5 ubers
So you can be out in the open a total of five times?
>I did.
I'll shorten the question for you since you're having trouble.
>Then why is Sniper's biggest value in tf2 his effectiveness at taking out medics

>>717212045
It's only his biggest value if you're walking into his sight line which you don't have to do. Stop doing that. You can completely take away "his biggest value" by just not being a retard. Can I help you with anything else?

>>717212156
>You can completely take away "his biggest value" by just not being a retard.
So you believe you understand the game even better than the high level players who acknowledge that taking out medics is sniper's main value?

>>717212258
That must be why I see so many snipers in 6's. Thanks for clearing that up

>>717181553 (OP)
Sniper is the most skill-based class in the entire game. Whether a sniper preforms well is entirely dependent upon the player's mechanical skill and game awareness.

>>717212323
Well he is the one class not part of the default four you can justify running full time if the player is good enough. Which some reckoning that Sniper would be meta if jarate wasn't banned.

>>717190418
>Dead Ringer Spy
Nigger just fucking turn around, what's he going to do? Trick stabbing is unreliable and most spies are too autistic to use the revolver.

>>717212468
sure, you keep telling yourself that. Remember kiddo, don't walk into the lasers and you'll grow up big and strong just like your favorite esports players someday.

>>717212597
It's pretty common knowledge anon.

>>717212706
I bet it is!

>>717212575
People like to bitch and moan about Dead Ringer spies but really only the creme de la creme of ultra autistic Spy mains can effectively abuse it, which is maybe 1 every three games.
99.9% of Spies trying to use the Dead Ringer have the most predictable escape movement imaginable, if you have a few braincells bouncing around up there you can easily headshot a Dead Ringer Spy after he uses it.

>>717212869
Even when there's an pro spy with 10K hours he still can't shut down an entire server all by himself because the time between kills is too big unless the enemy team is absolutely retarded, but at that point nothing matters since it's probably being pub stomped by a Power class+Medic.

how are you supposed to beat him

Sniper needs a rework.
Jarate should cover both the sniper and it's target.
The backpack items need to be reworked.
And increase the recharge time, sniper in TF2 chambers another bullet too fucking fast, it's ridiculous.

>>717213372
>no counters
>"erm just get good"

>if a sniper kills you, your death timer is reduced by 50%
>if a sniper assists in killing you, your death timer is reduced by 25%
>if you die as sniper, your death timer is increased by 50%

Solved. The biggest issues are set up time (sniper walks two steps outside spawn and is in position), and risk/reward.

>>717213409
I like your jarate nerf. Otherwise just revert dds to +25hp and everything would be fine with sniper.

>>717210571
sniper's damage is capped at 150 on reaction.
you overheal and communicate with your team and that lets them delete him.
he is a sitting duck with no advanced mobility
It's not a direct counter, but it enables so much about what makes TF2's gunplay good that if you ripped it away the game would come to a screeching halt as everyone is stuck scrounging for healthpacks and be unable to get through contested chokes or make significant aggressive plays without just buckling.

>>717213954
>coordinate multiple people in a push to maybe kill one singular person who is maybe completely alone and not in any way supported by his team and definitely not hiding behind eight meatshields and maybe a sentry gun

>But muh map design! Muh class balance! Think of the intricacies of game design!
God shut the fuck up just have fun. Nobody sperged out about this 15 years ago when we were all just playing casually

>>717214471
because you can also consistently solo a good demo, a good soldier, a good scout, a good heavy, a good.... etc, yeah none of them ever stomp servers with fags like you in it, wait yeah they do, you're just shit at the game and making excuses.

You save up your uber to PUSH A FUCKING SINGLE SNIPER, after ubers up you just die from a sniper or focus because you had to expend all that time and resource to deal with 1 (one) sniper hiding behind his entire team like 20 miles away protected by a engie nest and being healed by a dispenser... only for him to have to wait like 10 seconds to respawn and go right back to sniping people for free behind cover.
Yeah, no medic is not a fucking sniper counter.

>>717215290
You use your uber to push the objective dumbass. Please I beg of you, play one round of a real game and it will make sense.

>most HP in the game
>always has a pocket medic and 50 soldiers guarding him
what the fuck is the counter here?

>>717215603
>has infinite health and self heal
>hard counters everything
tf2 sissies will defend this

>spawn camps the door with stickies
how do you beat him?

>>717215910
You save up your uber to LEAVE THE FUCKING SPAWN ROOM, after ubers up you just die because you had to expend all that time and resource to deal with 1 (one) demoman hiding behind the corner like 20 miles away protected by a wall and being healed by a medic... only for him to have to wait like 10 seconds to respawn and go right back to camping the spawn for free behind cover.

>>717215490
But wait wasn't the uber for dealing with the sniper? Sniper and objective aren't going to be in the same place.

>>717216029
You joke but I have seem people unironically try and claim that you should be building up ubers to deal with spawn room campers

>>717181553 (OP)
Be honest. We know most of you fuckers use a cheat or two while playing, we're not retarded. I have no respect for cowards who closet in a game this dead.
>durrrr SKILL ISSUE durr UR BAD
You literally downloaded and paid for a program to play the game for you because you're so bad at it. And I know because of how easily I kill you types, you can't play for shit so you use trigger bots or walls like a crutch. It's sad. If you let a program play the game for you please don't call yourself a sniper main, it's like watching a youtuber play and pretending it's you who's doing all that.

>>717214602
Map design is an actual concern though. Compare the original maps where no one complained about sniper to the new maps where everyone complains about sniper.

>>717216220
>be sniper main
>headshot frogposter
>he cannot grasp the concept of clicking on a head and thusly assumes all sniper mains cheat

>>717216067
The uber is to win the game, you win the game by doing the objective, you do the objective while nobody can kill you. Hope this helps.

>>717215490
>somehow gets past the entire team (and the sniper focusing picks like medic)
>uses uber to push objective
>after ubers up sniper just snipes you
You're a real fucking moron, isn't it easier to just admit that sniper is a fucking baby class?

>>717215603
Sniper

>>717217025
>you do the objective while nobody can kill you
You literally can't. Uber blocks capping.

>>717218374
No but the medic and his patient are immune to shit and his patient can just shoot at you for free while the rest of their team is free to push the cart/cap the point/whatever else. Yknow because it's a TEAM game

>>717218546
Right but anyone else free to push can be killed, specifically by the sniper you've specifically said you aren't going after.

The mental gymnastics of sniper players literally boils down to
>"uh yeah this class makes the game unfun for everyone else, removing him would just make the gameplay tighter and fairer for every other class, but since he exists you're just going to have to prioritize and plan around a speck 10000000000cm away who can one shot you (only other class that can do that reliably is the spy, which requires an insane amount of risk and danger) but its okay because... uuuhhhh you can switch to medic and build uber for a singular sniper nest... or uhhhh, pick sniper?? You also need complete coordination with the rest of your team and focus the objective. You also need to be omniscient and also invisible and somehow traverse the snipers sight lines or the sniper *earns* a free oneshot from total safety, as a medic, where IF you're holding an uber you'll be sparking and screaming "ya I have ein UBERCHARGE ready!". But its ok because picking one character should totally change the dynamics of this team based shooter to revolve around dealing with him... because thats fun? Or is it only fun for the sniper? Also to mention that a good sniper is indistinguishable from a sniper utilizing aim assist, further showing how selfish the sniper main is.

huntsman though

>Sniper isn't fun to fight against!
Neither is Heavy, or Pyro, or Engineer, or Spy, or pretty much any class that isn't Scout and maybe Soldier.

I'd rather play against a good Sniper than a good Spy.

>>717202950
You are trading dps for burst.
Sometimes being able to one tap someone with a 107 shot is the difference between winning and losing.
Granted the diamondback can do that at any range for free.

You know you win when the only thing they can do is copy my post and cry about demoman lmao

Just give Heavy a helmet diaper like the Sniper's diapers that completely nullifies headshot crit damage so it's fair.

>>717181553 (OP)
Map issue.
If the map is an open field without cover, you'll get snipers.

>>717198575
This. Quickscoping is almost purely mechanical and reflexive. How often do you plan ahead for a quickscope? Do you ever consider multiple variables (player health, positioning, your health, etc)?

The only difference between quickscoping and blinking is that it's basically a learned behavior.

>bro just ignore his sightlines
>the community map in question

Sniperfags should not be allowed to make maps

>>717225317
>Secondary Slot
>Blocks 3 normal headshots or 1 fully charged headshot turning them into normal damage.
>Regenerates after 30 seconds once destroyed.
>-100% maximum overheal on wearer
Be honest would you even consider using something like this over a Sandvich or Banana?

>>717223845
just turn around

>>717181553 (OP)
Sniper is fine. Widowmaker in overwatch is much worse and everyone agrees the game would be better without her

>>717226282
Never mind community maps. Even valve themselves suck at this.

>>717226628
no because it has a bunch of retarded downsides for no reason, sniper's diapers don't gut him.

How are you feeling today, /v/?

>>717181702
>respect his sight line
when you die to a sniper id wager 75% of the time you had no idea he was looking in your direction because he was off in bumfuck nowhere

>>717226628
>-100% maximum overheal on wearer
Ok that made me realise you had your head screwed on right. Yeah this would OP as fuck if it didn't come with a medic+heavy nerf.

>>717226895
"Ok fine I'll go medic"
Just use your fucking uber if you are about to die, holy fuck, you've dropped 3 ubers already.

>>717226895
all of the above with the added bonus of every time a medic starts pocketing me I get auto-balanced or the server votes to scramble

>>717215603
>Random crit grenade from the other side of a wall turns him into meat sauce

>>717212156
Only a cloaked spy can discover a sniper's position without dying or losing fucktons of resources in the process, because his laser is almost invisible. If are not on comms, you will have to keep feeding him cannon fodder every time he repositions.

>>717227443
To be fair random crits make predicting "when you're about to die" somewhat hard. I don't want to waste my uber on a roaming soldier because I know that me and whoever I'm healing can probably deal with him if we're both at full health, but then he gets a lucky crocket and it's all over.

>>717226895
Why don't we have a fucking teleporter
I did come to enjoy Engineer greatly though

>>717216549
>be sniper "main"
>pay real life money to have a machine play a free to play dead game for you
>someone on the anonymous Mongolian basket weaving forum mentions they're aware of your shitty Indian programmed cheats
>"h-heh he just gets OWNED by us epic sniper mains thats why he said it!"

Actually, I kill you fucks regularly and easily, you get maybe one or two kills for every 5 I get on you because once i know they're not gonna miss it's as simple as keeping my head covered while making my way to you. These "sniper mains" never use map knowledge or proper positioning, never kill and move, never stick to a safe rear, you stick out like a nail and get hammered down. And yet despite such a complete lack of game sense you never miss when a head is exposed. Give me a break. You all suck, you depend on shitty cheats and a broken unbalanced class to carry your useless ass up the scoreboard (just to eventually get kicked anyway). Stop pretending like you guys actually play this game with any amount of actual skill.