Thread 717195130

>CPU that is not much faster than a 386
>However there's hardware to decode MJPEG video
>However there's hardware to do all the 3D math
>However there's hardware to organize the triangles back to front
>However there's hardware to draw the triangles
>However there's hardware to mix the audio channels and play em in different speeds
>However there's hardware to load the texture cache automatically
>However there's hardware...

crazy that sony coined the term gpu with playstation

>>717195130 (OP)
>However there's hardware to organize the triangles back to front
This is literally false.

>>717195313
They didn't. it was nvidia later on.
But the playstation only don't fit the nvidia definition because it's on the GPU.

>>717195338
https://problemkaputt.de/psx-spx.htm#gpudepthordering

>>717195550
the chip on playstation is literally called sony gpu.

>>717195713
That one i didn't knew.
Fucking leatherjacket man.

>>717195130 (OP)
In english, 4 eyes

>>717196236
It's a machine made to run 3D games, snake!
The ultimate cost-benefit, the one made to destroy nintendo from any location in the world. a machine made to surpass the super nintendo!

Look I don't give a fuck, all I know is it plays some games I really like and that my best friend in the years between 2000 and 2003 broke mine and the piece of shit didn't pay for it. If I get my hands on him I swear to god

>>717198898
That is undeniable.

>>717195130 (OP)
So it's either that or
>However there's hardware but the communist kind that shares everything and as a result produces a lotus eater that runs at a torpid pace.

>>717200096
This one use a generic super CPU thing for triangle math and audio mixing.

>>717200763
It was so "super" they didn't bother adding the extra RAM because it didn't make a difference. It was certainly more "super" than the Super nintendo, which they gaslit people into believing the "tech demo" games were actually utilizing Nintendo's tech

>>717201119
It was pretty fast for the 3 people that actually understood how to use the thing instead of just using the hacked together SGI code.

>>717201294
>It was pretty fast for the 3 people that actually understood how to use the thing
Yeah you'd think a company with only 2 launch titles the first years would...you know ship instructions to devs on how to use the fucking thing, but no they were lucky enough to even afford devkits. Somethings never change amirite?

>>717195130 (OP)
>still can't handle floating point integers

>>717195130 (OP)
I had to lean my PS1 on 2 and exactly 2 VHS tapes to get it to play games, no lower no higher, the CD spindle would fall off if I tried to play it upside down.

>>717201874
That's the thing, you had the standard OpenGL API, and you used it.
If you wanted to do something more you had to write your own RCP code, and it was hell because it had no debugger or documentation.

>>717202051
That's not the problem.
The problem is that it did all the 3D math in 16bit precision.
There are ways around it and many games do the ways around it quite well, but many is not all.

>>717202051
>floating point integers
Floats are decimal numbers. Integer math is all the PS1 really does.
>can't even use decimal math unless using fixed-point arithmethic
>make some of the most industry-defining games just because you can do some 3D with lighting and transparency

>>717202174
It's almost like they were losing a console war and needed a bait profit machine that only they and companies under their whip could comprehend.

>>717201874
wasn't it the same for the ps3?
unique architecture with dogshit manual

>>717202278
Actually, i did came with a good explanation mentally for this shit.
On the PS1, you have 65536 possible positions in the X, Y and Z axis, and depending on how you set the matrix, this point cloud basically will be more or less stretched on the screen.
If you do it right, the positions will be less than a pixel and unnoticeable.

Do it wrong and you get wobbly, multi pixel jumps.

>>717202547
Nintendo didn't needed that, as the sole manufacturer of the cartridges and "constantly suffering from chip shortages (tm)"

>>717202174
the tiny3d dev is doing crazy shit with custom graphics code
https://youtu.be/XP8g2ngHftY

>>717195130 (OP)
>However there's hardware to do your mom

>>717202886
I seem their stuff. it is quite mindblowing.

>>717195313
Sega had a Graphics Co-Processor called the GPU in Daytona USA cabinets

>>717202605
PS3 was well documented for the devs, it's just that the hardware was complicated.
To elaborate on the "complicated", the programming model is kinda like, instead of one fast processor that does anything, you have one mediocre processor but series of side processors that can only do certain kind of tasks by themselves, and the main processor has to constantly give them new tasks and fetch the results of the completed tasks.
The PS3 architechture was actually "good" in the sense that you could achieve a lot with it but it was hard, it wasn't like N64 architechture where it was clearly handicapped and only performed "normally" if you stretched and optimized it to its limits.

>>717203101
it kinda sounds like how a CPU gives instructions to specialized GPU cores

>>717202737
>Nintendo didn't needed that, as the sole manufacturer of the cartridges and "constantly suffering from chip shortages (tm)"
yeah constantly making double the profit by forcing companies to buy those carts from them, the higher capacity ones affordable by them and aforementioned 3rd party who was paid big goldeneye dollars to spend on such carts.
Imagine you're a dev and you go to Nintendo and they not only force you to buy the carts they make, but you also get no documentation on the system you'll be making the game for.

>>717203289
It is kinda of a reinvention of the GPU wheel and/or proto compute.
But the PS3 also needed a real CPU and didn't had one.

>>717203538
That's when you're on the nintendo's good side.
If they dislike you it's "oops! it's all chip shortage, here's the 5000 cartridges we managed to manufacture, good luck!"

>>717202605
>wasn't it the same for the ps3?
The problem with the PS3 was that it was well documented, but the architecture was so batshit insane that only the airforce wanted them as "super computers". Like golden ration pepsi logo marketing batshit insane, explanations you would just nope the fuck out as a dev and run to Microsoft.

>>717203689
>nintendo's good side.
Lol
Lmao

>>717203289
Yes, with the exceptions that the SPUs also give some info back to the main CPU. It's a hassle no doubt but not exactly the sort of nightmare the N64 memory access times were to wrangle with.

>>717203934
Relatively speaking of course.
There's no "we gonna prioritize these guys over super mario bouncing castle turbo" side.

>>717195130 (OP)
yes zoomer, this is literally how it should be.
we need to go back to functions being in-hardware and forcing devs to learn how to use it instead of shitting out unoptimized unity/unreal slop and "just shipping it"

>>717204608
it will never happen, boom boom

>>717204608
If we want to make a "PS6" worthy of name and price, it's literally the only way.
The PS5 pro is literally the best console we can make under $1000 if we just do a PC with DRM.

>>717203590
Wait, so ps3 could had used another powerpc cpu and be better and likely cheaper?

>>717204318
>There's no "we gonna prioritize these guys over super mario bouncing castle turbo" side.
It's "we gonna prioritize super mario bouncing castle turbo over whatever changes we'll force the other side to make".

>>717204608
After sony/MS catering to lazy devs? Never

>>717204893
That would allow em to buy a better GPU, yes.
But to "fix the Cell processor", i would merely make two of the SPEs have a much shorter pipeline (and run at a lower clock speed in the process), to have something that is actually good at branching code like AI and data compression in it.
These SPEs would be able to do shit like selecting data before being sent to the FPU shit and reduce the workload.

>>717202908
Why don't they make these FOR MEN BY MEN FUCK YEAH TESTOSTERONE BIG TITS EXPLOSIONS HELL YEAAAAH advertisements anyymore?

>>717204942
Beautiful

>>717205086
Because "it's for grownups by grownups" now.

Sony consoles were fucked up on purpose to make you develope games exclusively for them -- japan studio made cool games though and the big install base meant it always had a lot of third party support. Too bad these greedy cunts axed their own dev studio and are trying to bank on shitty trends like gaas slop. Evil shitty company

Nintendo consoles were weak so that they could charge less and more people would buy them, which crippled third party releases but didnt effect 1st party games designed around this hardware and we got good games but this ecil retarded company also sues children and old people into oblivion for making romhacks and shit

Xboxes only existed to eventually psyop people into moving to pc and therefore using windows and giving microslop money. The og xbox was a beast and the 360 was alright -- but microsofts ultimate goal has never been make games or be consumer friendly remember they treid to take used games from you, shill game pass, and spy on you with the kinect, evil evil company

Pc is good -- but windows is ass, and was only good because it managed to get a chokehold on the gamedev market early. Once again fuck microsoft

None of these companies are your friends. They all suck. Enjoy games, dont slorp the corpo cock though. Theyre just a middle man. The devs make your games. Not the companies.

>>717195130 (OP)
Amazing how the ps2 and ps3 were so poorly designed by compared to the ps1

>>717205673
Next you will tell me that the console war is just a conspiracy to get kids to do marketing for free, and this day even this board gets affected by it at a point they just post picture of products like the good cattle they are.

>>717198454
>a machine made to surpass the super nintendo!
That should be a fucking given. This was the era when bits were the marketing buzzword, so a 32 bit console not being able to surpass a 16 bit one wouldve just been embarassing as fuck.

>>717205067
Wtf? What kutaragi was thinking?

>>717205086
they're bringing it back starting with the sidney sweeney jeans ad.

because they need to get men to check back into society so they can go die in another war for israel.

>>717205802
What if a lot of the fucking image macros from the mid to late 2000s like the ps3 has no game and turn 360 degrees and walk away shit was originally made by sony/microsoft etc to instigate the console war

And we all were just parrotting their memes?

>>717195550
> So, when rendering a polygon, the hardware CANNOT determine which of the new pixels are in front/behind of the old pixels in the buffer.
>The rendering simply takes place in the ordering as the data is sent to the GPU (ie. the most distant objects should be sent first)
This says the exact opposite of what you're claiming.

>>717206031
The success of the PS1 caused sony to purposely design the ps2 and ps3 badly in order to make porting to other systems hard

>>717202908
>be reminded of that one chick on 4chan that actually used a dualshock as a vibrator
Good times.

>>717198454
I would pay to see a dramatized console war featuring them as mechs in an arms race to reach graphical fidelity nirvana, only for the ending to be all the mechs homogenized at the end. Only problem is that nintendo would end up being the protagonist because of uniqueness, which is lame for the intents of the concept.

>>717206031
Gigaflops.
You know these people that prioritize flops over everything else and gets called a retard?
Well, the Cell CPU is what they would do if they were as smart as kutaragi.

>>717206286
It's probably unclear on the OP but i don't claim it has a Z-Buffer, i claim it has a way to sort the triangles themselves before sending it to the buffer.
Basically, you build the triangle list with the "average Z value" (that is conveniently calculated by the GTE) of every triangle marked on it, and the DMA will pick the triangles in order to send to rendering.
You don't need to manually reorder the triangles and waste CPU time on it.

>>717206316
Makes sense, but bited them in the ass on the ps3, pitty thats Micro$oft kicked Moore and fucked up in the xbox one

>>717206427
Ah yes, the power of the CELL

>>717206316
In the 5th gen, they had a system with unique architecture because at the time technological limitations meant that you had to really compromise and prioritize certain aspects of the hardware

Sony has an ego problem, and felt that they have to make some special snowflake hardware thats different from other systems, so they continued to do it with the ps2 and ps3 despite

Internally at the head quarters they would spend hours just pitching bat shit insane ideas like oh yeah what if theres actually no gpu, or no cpu, or something retarded like that everyone just basically challenging eachother to make the video game console equivalent of a yoko ono album because theyre legitimately Pretentious douchebags

Interesting systems though

>>717206783
Oh I see that part now. That's a neat approximation.

>>717195130 (OP)
I miss the days of unique custom hardware instead of the soulless amd/nvidia stuff we have on console now

>>717206783
it's unlikely that they sort all triangles. more likely they only sorted by object, not by triangle. maybe they sorted the triangles per object. so each object gets sent in correct order and maybe within each object the triangles get sent in correct order as well. but between two objects you could get a triangle that renders on top of a closer triangle erroneously. there must be such a flaw or there would never be a sorting issue in a Playstation game.

>>717207375
PS1 was literally a modified MIPs chip
>I miss the days when consoles had horrible limitations and borderline esoteric hardware that required devs to bang their heads against the wall
No, thank god for AMD/Nvidia consoles. PC ports are much better today

>>717207546
Nah, it is actually by triangle thanks to the GTE and DMA engines if you see in the techdoc.
If you don't sort by tri, shit gets all fucked as soon you rotate the object 180 degrees

>>717195130 (OP)
*click*
*click*
*click*
*flip playstation over*
*BWOOOOOOooooooWWW* *doo* *doo* *doo*

>>717206351
that'd just be gundam where they keep upgrading their mobile suits over the course of the show.

>>717207070
wasn't the ps3 supposed to not have a GPU? with the CPU they had at launch, how the fuck were they going to make that work?

>>717207870
They expected the Cell to do all the graphics. The Naughty Dog ICE team told them it was a retarded idea and they backtracked on it

>>717207546
The "flaw" is that it's per polygon, not per pixel. If the average depth of the poly changes, it can change draw order. If the ordering of two polys keeps changing, it'll flicker between the two. This explains a lot of the depth errors in PSX games.

>>717207796
theming it after consoles is kind of the point

>>717207651
wouldn't be a problem with the second part of my suggestion where you do sort by triangles BUT ONLY PER OBJECT. sorting algorithms scale with the number of things to sort. sorting the triangles of each object, for all objects would end up much cheaper than sorting all triangles against each other "globally".

>>717207742
the data starts to fall out of old discs if you turn them over. Flipping the PSX allows the data to stay on the disc so the lazer can read it still!

>>717208304
it's only per DMA transaction as far as I can tell, which pretty much means polys per object

>>717205086
The industry shifted away from irreverent, young adult focused marketing as soon as normalfag casuals became the more profitable option.

>>717208230
depth cycles are impossible to render on psx unless you subdivide your geometry
it's pretty remarkable that depth buffers weren't standard with the first gen of 3d consoles

>>717208442
vram was costly and so was bandwidth. fast approximate solutions make sense

>>717205873
>a 32 bit console not being able to surpass a 16 bit one wouldve just been embarassing as fuck.
Especially if they lie about said 32-bit console being 64-bits. https://youtu.be/nxuna944dls

>>717208230
>in PSX games.
Post disregarded, apply yourself.

>>717208676
approximation was definitely the strategy behind the psx's graphics hardware design, and arguably it was the correct choice at the time
however, when it comes to depth buffers, it's such an easy thing to implement in hardware that i just find it a little surprising is all
granted, most modern depth buffers incorporate the perspective divide as part of their implementation, which is exactly the functionality the psx did not implement as a design choice to dramatically simplify rendering, but even a depth buffer implemented in screen coordinates would have been computationally more efficient than running a sorting algo on the cpu and have better results
all that being said, i do enjoy the character these old systems had, everything has converged to the exact same hardware design in 2025 and nothing differentiates consoles anymore besides the network services backing them (and in nintendo's case, some creative design)

>>717209120
The jaguar could absolutely demolish the snes, if there was any sort of good developer using it.
Just look at the rayman.

>>717209135
I only call it that to zoomers reveal and humiliate themselves.

>>717209340
ok boomer revealing and humiliating xirself

>>717209256
>easy thing to implement
It's easy to implement the logic on the GPU but now you need to multiply the size and bandwidth of the framebuffer by 1.5x~2x. It wouldn't have been cost effective.

>>717208386
I'm tired of tardwrangling this chatbot as it tries to veer into social science powerpoint presentations. this is the best answer I was able to extract.
what do you make of this? I have not pursued the source as I would likely not understand it any way.

the part that really trips me up is that brave bot claimed TWICE that the WOBBLE was somehow connected to the depth sorting. that makes absolutely no sense to me, seems like a complete hallucination. changing the order wouldn't change the positions. there is no fucking way a difference in sorting could create wobble. I'm seeing the rest of the response in that light.

>>717209340
Literally
>I only pretend to be retarded
>You are the fool for pointing it out
Dumbass

>>717210498
perhaps using chatbots to understand things is FUCKING RETARDED
because, you know, THEY CAN'T REASON

>>717210498
Yes, it is a hallucination, this problem has come up before where it just repeats commonly repeated myths. That's what they're designed to do.

>>717210590
I know but regular googling got me nowhere. I was obviously hoping to find a relevant stackoverflow thread or something as my first choice.

>>717210724
wobble is due to a combination of round off error and screen space interpolation (as opposed to perspective correct interpolation)

>>717196236
>>717198454
kek

>>717210724
Here's some relevant tidbits. They're part of the Psy-Q SDK for the Playstation.
https://psx.arthus.net/sdk/Psy-Q/DOCS/LIBOVR46.PDF
>In order to more easily control the order of execution for large numbers of primitives, the graphics library uses a mechanism known as an ordering table (OT).
> You can use an OT to implement Z sorting, which is a method of eliminating hidden surfaces by sorting a list of primitives by their depth (z-value) in 3D space.
> In the basic geometry library (libgte), many of the functions calculate an otz value (to help create a Z-ordered OT) while performing 3-dimensional coordinate conversion
(GTE is the PSX's custom geometry coprocessor)
https://psx.arthus.net/sdk/Psy-Q/DOCS/TECHNOTE/ordtbl.pdf
>Memory permitting, you can have as many OTs as you want. Anywhere there is extra resolution required for your Z-depth values is a good candidate. For example, separate OTs may be used for the polygons which make up individual 3D objects. Or you may have a 3D control panel overlaying the rest of your screen which is not changing position or orientation, so you could create a separate OT for it that doesn’t need to be rebuilt from scratch every frame

tl;dr Programmers had a lot of flexibility with how to use hardware accelerated depth sorting on Playstation and "sort polygons per object" was outright suggested by the favoured SDK.

>>717210498
I have now read through one of the sources:
https://problemkaputt.de/psx-spx.htm#gpudepthordering
this seems to be an emulator so it should rather accurately describe how a real PS1 worked, else it wouldn't work. sadly no mention of whether devs would (or could) throw all the triangles of a scene into one ordered list ("table", OT) for the GPU at once or if it had to be so small as to only fit individual meshes for example. at the very least there is no explicit mention of objects, meshes or groups, so as far as I can tell from this source it might be possible to sort all of a scene's triangles against each other in one go. there doesn't seem to be any hard limitation against doing so.
>when all polygons have been stored in the OT, the OT is sent to the GPU via "DMA2-linked-list" mode.
>all polygons
if only we knew the maximum capacity of such a linked list. then again maybe you could send more than one list if you wait for the GPU to draw the first list of triangles?

>>717208386
you're saying in practice they sent each object to the GPU individually? in that case it would be all but confirmed they only sorted per object.

>>717212032
sadly I hit post before this one was loaded for me. now our posts are in confusing order. the accuracy thing is also something I stumbled over as it suggests using more than one ordering table to draw a frame.
>Or you may have a 3D control panel overlaying the rest of your screen which is not changing position or orientation, so you could create a separate OT for it that doesn’t need to be rebuilt from scratch every frame
this part gets me excited. caching ordering tables to reuse, of course! caching things is my "all I have is a hammer" of optimization techniques. I'm a rather high level programmer (C# for Unity, work experience in Java, saw C++ last in college)

>>717212172
I imagine it's a "why not both" case.
You have to manually fill the OT and all that, so you could pre-sort by objects and then go filling the OT of each object instead of trying to make a global one.

Dynamic lighting is still eerie in it

>>717195130 (OP)
This guy is a genius.
Not only an exceptional engineer, he saved the gaming industry from the monopoly of greedy and corrupt companies like Nintendo and Microsoft.
The moment he step down in 2007 everything started crumble, a domino effect.

>>717212578
but you see it's not both. sorting per object means the order will be wrong between objects. only the triangles within each object will be sorted correctly against each other but the closer object will draw entirely over the further away object, regardless of their actual extents / how they overlap. it's not free performance.

The last console with soul

>>717212716
Also a chad

>>717212785
I see.
So just a "giant" OT makes more sense.

>>717212716
Also a visionary. (this article is from 2018, btw)

>>717213294
>(this article is from 2018, btw)

>>717206350
There's more than one girl here that does that ;)
And yes, I am trans for all the chasers out here

>>717213252
no, it seems like the PS1 wouldn't be able to do that for any "real game" scene. in practice they sorted by object and just accepted that it produces artifacts.
>>717212032

>>717195130 (OP)

Yes? What the fuck is your point? Thousands of consoles, computers and arcade cabinets were designed exactly like that.

>>717213649
It's beautiful, that's the point.
a 386 tier console doing pentium tier shit because it is full of ASIC goods

>>717213817
I really don't understand why everyone at Sony thouth a game console would fail.
By thw 90s the videogame crash was far behind and there was a place for another competitor in the market, specially in home consoles.

>>717213817
>ah yes, my plan is basically to do the same as philips and make a CD-ROM video game that will fight nintendo with all their franchises and monopolies head on
>We're also betting ALL the chips on 3D graphics that no studio is prepared to do yet
>that mpeg shit? we ain't doing that, mjpeg is more than enough

>>717207375
Not all old consoles were made out of esoteric custom hardware. The GBA used a common ARM processor, for example.

>>717214576
Both the N64 and playstation also used common CPUs.
It's the rest of the thing that is weird generally.

>>717214263
Because you either do games for only nintendo, or you don't.
Until some literal lawsuits, publishing a game for a non-nintendo console meant that game wouldn't be able to go to the nintendo system and vice versa.

>>717195130 (OP)
>>717202148
>>717207742
>games won't run anymore even though the disks aren't completely scratched
>lean console on its side or on its back
>it just fucking works
Was that thanks to magical hardware too?

>>717216115
bad hardware

>>717216115
The drive head runs on a plastic rail shit that gets ground with time and use. when you turn it upside down it stops riding on that rail.

>>717213124
>hoverhand
>chad
think again

>>717195713
The lied it was a GTE.

>>717217450
GTE is the T&L engine.
It's basically a co-processor that allows the playstation to perform matrix operations a SHITLOAD faster than general CPUs.
It is basically the same task as the modern vertex shaders.

>>717216863
the issue with mine was with the lens (the clicking sound was it trying to focus)

>>717214263
CD added long loading times that weren't really there for cartridge games
Long loading times became the norm during that generation but at the time it was a big concern and something Nintendo mentioned to Sony when they were still working together

>>717218639
the real problem is that the psx bios is complete dogshit.
otherwise, a lot of loading could have been anticipated and done silently in the background

>>717218767
The PS1 loading wasn't that bad when the developer was not retarded and did the game in a gazillion tiny files.

>>717203832
I remember gabe newell talking about ps3 using multi-threaded code
"Ive never wrote a single line of multi-threaded code, EVER."

>>717219347
If PS3 is your first time you need to use multi-threaded code, shit's dire.

>>717218767
This wasn't because of the bios but because of the standard libraries provided by Sony the games were developed with. Naughty Dog made some of their own wrote their own to get Crash to keep loading stuff from CD during gameplay.

>>717220378
Isn't quite the same thing?

>>717220378
i didn't know the bios could be bypassed. haven't played around with psx dev before

>>717221278
Not really, developers are stuck with whatever BIOS is already on the console, but you can code your own libraries.

>>717221629
You could brute force your way.
A pentium 166 or 200 was enough to defeat a playstation, but that was like 2000 dollar machine.

>>717214451
Real businessmen take risks.

>>717223390
And make "dumb mistakes" that end up paying off forever.
According to a certain video and statements etc.. the store margins sony used were the "normal for electronics", that just happened to be a lot higher than the "nintendo special", so stores just pushed the playstation because it was more profitable.
Also no "chip shortages", because sony music would just produce as many CDs as you asked em, for a fraction of the price and time of nintendo carts.

>>717202148
The fuck? Did you abuse the hell out of your Playstation or something?

>>717209135
Sony's internal naming for it was PSX. Just like the Velveeta Shells and Cheese was PSP2. Cope and rope yourself.

>>717224498
Arrest

>>717214263
>I really don't understand why everyone at Sony thouth a game console would fail.
I do.

>What is: The Video Game Industry Crash of the 1980's, for $500, Ken.
>*Jeparody BING noise here*
>By thw 90s the videogame crash was far behind
WOW, a whole... ten... years...

In any case, ignoring that you're forgetting at the time it was: Nintendo, Sega and third parties that crashed and burned from the 1980's crash (Atari, Commodore [in a way], MSX [though that semi-survived into the 1990's thanks to doing what Commodore was doing with programming/"PC" a like).

When PSX was coming out, it was facing 3DO (Jaguar), Sega (Saturn, 32X [LMAO], Genesis [on the way out]), Nintendo (SNES, NES [on the way out if wasn't already out the door], N64), and NeoGeo (Pocket, though they did have a home-hardware for their Arcade ports).

And a few of those (Saturn, Jaguar, NeoGeo) was $500USD nearly to Sony's $300.

Consoles ALWAYS are loss-leaders, where they make up in attach rate (games bought), which is why the PS5's dismal attach rate isn't helping Sony, but I digress.


A lot of execs probably thought it wouldn't make money, and rightly so.

It wasn't until the PS2 that games went from "nerdy hobby" into a normie-friendly hobby.

>>717223708
>take risks but also offset those risks by ensuring that your product fits a niche that will ensure its viability even if it fails as a game console
Sounds good to me. This had been always a thing. Many bought PS2 for its ability to play back DVD's and PS3 for its bluray drive.

>>717220198
Not really. PS3 was sort of a transition bridge. Dual-Core (multi-core) was starting and a lot of developers weren't jumping on it. Crysis ("does it run?") a 2007 title that brought PC's to their knees, DIDN'T use multi-threading, which is part of the reason Crysis ran like dogshit on even top-of-the-line-2007 hardware.

>>717203832
The Airforce wanted them as super computers because they were sold at a loss. That is, they were so cheap relative to the compute you got that it was worth struggling through for them.

>>717224876
I think the biggest factor was the "no-games" one.
Did it really looked like companies like capcom, konami,square and the likes would choose the "playstation" instead of whatever the fuck nintendo had in the oven? Even after the lawsuit, nintendo still had like a year exclusivity for games, and they would punish you with chip shortages.
But the story kinda ended a bit differently

>>717195130 (OP)
>However there's hardware to do all the 3D math
No there wasn't. They cheaped out and didn't include it.
Hence the broken wobbly graphics.

>>717225046
>DIDN'T use multi-threading, which is part of the reason Crysis ran like dogshit on even top-of-the-line-2007 hardware.
Correction, because I misremember: Crysis DOES use multi-threading, but it does it POORLY because everyone wasn't on-board with multi-threading yet. Even the "remaster" doesn't use it well and it runs like dog shit no matter which version on 202X hardware.

>>717207070
With the PS1 it was put together back when there was a RAM shortage. Memory was at a premium, and Kutaragi had to make compromises. He wanted it to be easy to develop for, but powerful enough to be worth using, while not being too expensive. That's why the polygon wobble happened. They had to sacrifice something, and that's what he picked.

>>717225392
Check out the gte.
It IS a hardware to do 3D math.
But it's a 16bit precision hardware, so you get wobbly graphics because there's only 65536 possible positions for X,Y and Z.
You could build a matrix that hides the wobbliness, but that limit the size of the world unless you use some smart trickery, like swapping matrices.

>>717195130 (OP)
>there's hardware to organize the triangles back to front
Wasn't there explicitly NOT this feature?

>>717208147
This was early on, they also planned to use a far better PowerVR GPU but it never came to fruition so they had to settle with Nvidia.

>>717210537
Who is pretending here?

>>717214263
Because in the 90s you had lots of competitors to Nintendo that just crashed and burned. Even Sega, who was the closest thing to an actual rival to them was dropping stinkers left and right in the CD and 32x add-on.
Then you had Apple, Atari, Phillips, and 3DO all producing big fat turds.

>>717224876
>The Video Game Industry Crash of the 1980's
isn't this overrated? AFAIK, the only top dog that actually died in this period was Atari, and their downfall was a chain of bad decisions

>>717212716
>greed companies
599 US DOLLARS ( in 2006)

>>717226025
>Plays SACDs for $600
>SACD players started at $1500 at the time
Ken-san....the value proposition is incredible. And it plays Ridge Racer 7 at 1080p60? I kneel....

>>717212716
>Not only an exceptional engineer
the spc700 and adsp (snes audio circuit he designed) chops off a full 25% of sound data on decode

>>717195130 (OP)
>no hardware to deal with the perspective correction for textures
>no hardware to deal with floats

>>717226491
nothing to do with psx, but i think daggerfall is a terrible half-implemented buggy mess
that being said, the only thing about daggerfall that i like is that the entire engine uses integer math, including the renderer
floats are for fags

>>717214263
They probably expected to sell it at the real price first, if it cost like Saturn-NeoGeo, the chances were slim

>>717226491
These cost extra in terms of number of transistors.
You need to have a division circuit on the pixel output to do perspective correction (a division per W per pixel bullshit).
Also you don't NEEDED floating point, just 32bit precision, even if integer would get rid of all the model wobble.

>>717225864
Atari crashed the entire market for home consoles in the USA. Nintendo brought it back with in just a couple years with the NES and then GameBoy.
Way more companies than just Atari suffered from their slop bloat.

>>717214263
was all media execs at the time

>>717212716
He was a visionary, the 360 and all subsequent Xbox and Playstation consoles are soulless discount PC boxes. Imagine if each company was releasing their own thing like back in the day, the innovation that could bring. Now everything is on everything, same graphics, games made to be easily ported. It's just boring.

>>717226170
Ok and the trade off is fucking sample based audio when everything else was still using NES style synth. Not that the latter is bad but the former game us some of the most unique and memorable pieces of music that humanity has ever produced.

>>717195130 (OP)
The PS1 will forever be looked upon as one of the biggest human achievements.

>>717226491
Integer math is genuinely better for video game logic than float values.

>>717227680
doesn't excuse losing 25% of the encoding
the audio subsystem only has 64k (because memory was precious then). sound samples take up the majority of that space (the music program and score sharing the same space), so really you only got around 40k of sample space instead of 60k.
that stinks of terrible digital logic design
t. guy was head ta of computer architecture at uni

>>717218639
I will happily take some loading times over paying $70 for a SNES cart.
CDs were a fucking revolution you dumb faggot.
I distinctly remember thinking "damn what a ripoff" when I saw the snes version of chrono trigger for 50 bucks at a game store while the FFA on ps1 had CT AND other games for $25

>>717226025
>illiterate idiots doesn't understand the definition of cost-benefit
>also, Sony lost over $300 on each 20GB PS3 sold so the costumer could have a TRUE next gen console
If you wanted an Xbox 360 with the same features as the PS3, you'd not only need the $399 Xbox package, but also: buy the HD-DVD add-on (+$200), buy the Wi-Fi adapter (+$100+), buy a device to charge your double AA batteries (+$20), and pay to play online multiplayer (+$50+/year). Your launch Xbox 360 would either getting 3RL or you would want a hdmi compatible model. Therefore, another Xbox 360 two years later (+$299).
Math: a Xbox 360 = $720 (plus $300 later on).
Sony's only mistake was not launch a ''poorfag friendly package" for $399 or $299 at the very least.

>>717227921
The novelty of an AV out PS3 with only wired internet, no internal HDD only 2GB internal storage, 1 USB port and no digital audio. Somewhat based.

>>717227902
>the FFA on ps1 had CT AND other games for $25
nta but desu these are one of the few PS games where the load times were absolutely fucked because how commonly they load something. They are not good ports at all.

>>717226025
$399 a few months later

>>717228115
They were cheap and gave you access to several amazing games before you could easily emulate the originals.
That alone is worth it.
I happily sat through CTs little loading stops.

>>717228115
It's only notably bad in chrono trigger due to how the game works, the final fantasy games have more generous transitions and they're comfortably playable. Chrono Trigger is bad because of how obvious and frequent the loads are.

>>717212716
>>717228438
The PS3 did fucking 1080p over HDMI in 2006 when people were still using composite
It played essentially every format of consumer media, and it played PS1 and PS2 games (not the best but still functional).
They justified the $600 imo.

>>717228438
You stole that, didn't you?

>>717228438
>xbox 360 high defition gaming
>component, composite
Literally a scam.
This is how low the bar was set already in 2007. No respect and no dignity for the customer.

>>717202051
>floating point integers
Anon, that's like saying a square circle

>>717228892
Have you never used component video? It can output HD video

>>717202148
I had to flip mine over, but only to play Bushido Blade 2. Everything else worked fine.

>>717202650
Zoomers are nostalgic for this awful garbage, it drives me crazy seeing them try to emulate it

>>717229142
1280x720p is far behind in image quality compared to 1920x1080p.
Not true high definition imo

>>717226491
and I wouldn't have it any other way

>>717229680
The 360 can output 1080i over component

>>717225046
>meanwhile the same year
>Supreme Commander makes extensive use of two technologies relatively unused in video games prior to its release, namely multi core processing[25] and multi monitor displays.[25] When detecting a multi-core processor, the game assigns a specific task, such as AI calculations, to each core, splitting the load between them.[26] Supreme Commander is one of the first games to specifically support dual and quad core processors in the game.[27]

>>717229680
720p was part of the high-definition standard at the time. Not every HD TV at the time was 1080p either.

>>717229339
It's funny because there are many games that avoid this particular problem entirely with a well rounded matrix.

>>717230909
bullshit

>>717202650
16 bit 4d integer matrix-vector multiply requires 34 bits of precision
you either have to do fixed-point math, or have no single component in the matrix of vector exceed 7 bit precision, which is not enough to prevent wobbles

>>717231687
I imagine that the matrix multiplier has 34bit output or it is chopping the lower bits or some crazy shit like that.
But the inputs, both the coordinates and matrix components are 16bit.

>>717232128
another rub is since there is no perspective divide, you can't take advantage of the scale-invariance of homogeneous coordinates, meaning that if you want a particular matrix, there is exactly one way to represent it; you can't scale the vector or matrix to make the numbers come out nicer to e.g. prevent wobbles

>>717195130 (OP)
>However can't do floating point math wobble wobble wobble

that being said, 95% of the face-melting wobble effect on psx is due to screen-space interpolation of textures.
the wobbles we are talking about affect the vertex positions, but they would only jump around a pixel or so

>>717229680
720p/1080i was the standard for a long while until mid cycle 360

and the screen-space interpolation wobbles are mitigated by subdividing geometry that is close to the camera plane or at extreme angles, which the psx did nicely since it could render a relatively large number of (half-assed) polygons
of course, you needed to either program that functionality in yourself or use sony's libraries

>>717232409
Wobble 1 (texture warping) is as the post above says, small triangles, small troubles.
Wobble 2 (geometry warping) you solve by using a good matrix.
Floating point is not needed, and the wobble is mostly due 3D 16bit math.

>>717233421
floating point is needed for modern graphics
otherwise depth buffers would have like 2bit precision

>>717233513
Depth buffers as far i know are all integer shit.
You just use fixed point math.
On 16bit depth buffer your 0-1 maps nicely to 0-65535

>>717233615
>depth buffer ... are integer
true
however the depth buffer in modern graphics uses the depth information after the perspective divide, effectively making distance recorded in the buffer vary as a reciprocal
effectively you lose precision really fast

>>717228776
>The PS3 did fucking 1080p over HDMI in 2006
for bluray movies. games were still 720p aside from the few exceptions. 7th gen was 720p era and component is enough for that.

>>717229680
>>717228892
nigger learn the difference between HD and fullHD. they werent lying. 720p is HD. 1080p is fullHD

>>717233836
Yep.
The context i was using is mostly in terms of "X/Y/Z coordinates".
float and integer use both 32bit precision

>>717233878
Plenty of games but not course not AAA blockbusters
Worst part about PS3 is no scaling. Xbox 360 you set the output res and everything went out at that even if the game was rendering 1080, 720 etc. even could output 16:10 res with black bars, but PS3 on a 16;10 monitor would just be stretched cuz sending 720 or 1080 signal

>>717233836
>>717233615
>>717233513
>>717233421
where'd ya learn all this shit? any book reccs or just through Wikipedia scrolling or smthng

>>717234275
Wikipedia scrolling, OpenGL oldass programming, techdocs like https://problemkaputt.de/psx-spx.htm

>>717234275
i really love computer graphics
i'd suggest Shirley (pic related), however the really important stuff was completely fucking wrong in the edition i have
really, the most informative source i know is the early design of opengl, which is totally obsolete at this point, but is a complete graphics pipeline
https://www.lri.fr/~mbl/ENS/IG2/docs/opengl-stm.pdf
https://registry.khronos.org/OpenGL-Refpages/gl2.1/
i personally have a site that derives all the math (which can be a mind fuck), but it's mostly my personal notes

>>717234275
Why do you ask? you zoomer ass won't stand to read and even more, retain all that data. Go back to tik tok.

>>717234615
pic related is a derivation of perspective correct interpolation, which shirley completely jobs, and is hard to find anywhere.
i just derived it after people pointing me in the right direction

>>717233962
Most games didn't even render at 720p.
For example AssCreed looks like shit.

>>717228438
>wearing gloves to handle le 2007 brochure
Retro gaming virgins are so cringe lmao

the most important thing about learning graphics is actually programming them up

>>717234941
lol that's pretty cool

>>717234928
He could just be McNally