Thread 717487458

It's called "Jungler".

No it's crowd control

>>717487458 (OP)
>>717487516
Both are just another flavor of support.

>>717487458 (OP)
get rid of all roles. Make an MMO where everyone has to rotate aggro and use cooldowns to manage their own health while also being responsible for damage.

>>717487689
GW2 does this and it's just a benny hill sketch every boss fight. Abysmal.

>>717487458 (OP)
it's called niggerdestroyer

There exists so many different variations even among the "core" archetypes it's really just splitting hairs trying to reinvent the wheel.

>>717487601
Support is buffing your own party, something like an inhibitor will be focused on debuffing the enemy(ies). Causing the enemy to deal less damage, take more damage or stopping an attack will be what an inhibitor does.

>>717487458 (OP)
Rouge
Its a defensive support class on offence

>>717487458 (OP)
Some games have already had a 4th core class and it would be a support that's responsible for things like buffs/debuffs/CC. Think of something like a bard.

>>717487601
no, jungler is another type of offense (kills creeps and ganks occasionally until strong enough to start go full offense)

>>717487850
Debuffing or using status effects on enemies to make it easier for your party would be supporting them. In Soul Sacrifice I didn't have any party healing spells, but I did carry a shield spell to stagger charging bosses so everyone could burst them down. That a type of support, interfering with a deadly charge attack and giving an opening for an attack.

>>717487516
Crowd control is what they do, not what they are. You don’t call someone “a slow” just because they cast Frost Trap. Jungler is their role-objectives, map pressure, ganks. CC is their toolset. It's like calling a sniper “the headshot” because that’s what he aims for.

>>717487850
All of what you described is what a cc/jungler excels at
>>717487914
>until strong enough
You just described a class at a deficit to offense: A support class

If the third role is "Support" and not "Healer" then I think you're fairly limited to the trinity. You really have to split that into two roles to make this have a chance to work. Support is just way too vast of a category, it basically encapsulates everything that Doing Damage and Taking Damage leaves out.

>>717487458 (OP)
>Called jungler
>No jungle

>>717487458 (OP)
Boss DPS
Add DPS

>Make enemy number go down
>Make your number go down slower
>Make your number go up
The missing link is obviously "make enemy number go down faster." Classes that apply debuffs and status effects, like an anti-tank. I remember a previous thread complaining about how metas often revolve around unkillable overhealed tanks, and this would be precisely how you get around that. They're not very effective on their own, but when paired with a proper damage dealer they'll tear through enemy forces like butter. They're a pair, like a tank and healer.

>>717487458 (OP)
>Will there every be more classes than high attack man, high defence man, and man who does literally everything else like healing, buffing, debuffing, being the fastest, managing unique game resource we can just bundle all this onto one guy.
Wow guess not, weird.

>>717488020
You're mixing the action with the outcome. The role of the supporter is to bring boons to your party, the role of an inhibitor is to cause detriments to the enemy.

That's like saying if a supporter provides a shield to an ally, they should be considered a healer since it mitigates the risk of dying to further enemy attacks. If a protector needs to continuously hit an enemy to gain threat, then they're just an attacker since they're dealing damage.

>>717487458 (OP)
offender (phys)
defender
support
offender (mag)

there

>>717489426
That can easily still be considered a support role though. Hell, this type of stuff could easily be given to the other 3 roles:
For offense, you could have an assasin for example that poisons the enemies and gives a bunch of debuffs, the tank could be a palandin that casts debuffs to make him tank easier, and the support could be a shaman that casts shit like a debuff that makes your allies have life steal when they hit the debuffed enemy.

>>717487516
Hybrid between support and a dps
You could make hybrids of all three

>>717487458 (OP)
Innately flawed argument.

If you go beyond 4th, there's no reason to stop there.
Most games will have 5, 6, 7 or even 8. But I haven't ever seen just 4.

>>717487458 (OP)
>player roles
team games are for retarded faggots

>>717487458 (OP)
The core character classes are -
>Dodgy tank
>Blocky tank
>Burst damager
>Slow but steady damager
>Burst healer
>Slow but steady healer
>Buffing support
>Debuffing support
and
>The guy who does all the above but worse

>>717487458 (OP)
I think the answer is no. Any fancy new role you try to create will just be a variation of the core 3. A debuffer is a variation of support for example, a mage is an offense class the same way a fighter or an archer is. You can try to create an hybrid, like a paladin that tanks and heals. But this is not a 4th role, this is an hybrid of the 3, and will do either one of the jobs, or both of them, but doing both of them does not change the fact that it is still part of the 3, not a separated thing.

>>717487458 (OP)
>jungler
>in a forest

>>717488113
>described a class at a deficit to offense: A support class
Are you slightly brain damaged? In the description of the post you replied to, Jungler would be closer to ADC or whatever you want to call it in MOBAs or some shit.
>dogshit offense early, maybe some cc
>gets strong enough to hold their own later
You can't just call anyone who starts at an offensive deficit a support you dolt, you need the whole context. In this case Jungler goes off to farm and gank, then gets strong enough to either go toe to toe with the enemy carries or helps act as backup damage/cc if yours gets gibbed.
Dunno if it's worth calling the Jungler a 4th core class, but it certainly doesn't fall into the support role.

>>717487458 (OP)
Damage Dealer
Tank
Healer
Buffer
Debuffer
Protector
Summoner
Positioner

>>717487458 (OP)
there should only be dps classes in a game, just different styles. like destiny

There are already four core classes, and three of them aren't any from that gay fucking Trinity.

>>717489765
But not every MMO is fantasy?
>>717487458 (OP)
The real answer is to create a variable Aggro system that change between enemies type. Beasts would aggro the weakest in terms of physical strength, Butchers aim for players that have healing capacities, Challengers aim for the strongest in the party.

>>717490051
Call them Rangers, ez.

>>717490129
mag can be substituted for esp
there

IT'S CALLED UTILITY NIGGERS

>>717487516
>Attacker
>Controller
>Defender
>Supporter
Yup, it fits perfectly.

>>717487458 (OP)
As far as I'm concerned there's only two. DPS who might have support capabilities, and Tank who might have support capabilities.

I don't need no stinkin' shoelacer in my party.

>>717490151
But what if I don't want ESP. Do I take the Xenosaga pill and make Ether a broad term for "tech that work like spells"?

sorry darlings but Runescape figured it out two decades ago

>>717487458 (OP)
The roach

>>717490234
Then you stick to the boring trinity, your game doesn't have to be a special snowflake that breaks the mould.

>>717487458 (OP)
I can imagine this working out great in MMOs.
>hey invite me to the group, my role is to fuck off and do my own thing the whole time and then claim sole credit for killing the final boss

>>717490151
Or just generalizd them as melee and ranged offense. Similarly, melee defense is tank and ranged defense is support/healer.

The problem with the Holy Trinity is that its completely Utilitarian. It takes out the RPG out of MMORPG.
Classes were supposed to be archetypes, not just tool kit. This is why B/X made Dwarves and Elves in to classes instead of a cosmetic for the players.
What's missing is Roleplaying.

>>717490068
>>gets strong enough to hold their own later
>own
incorrect, that's when it becomes a team focus and the jungler is still solely dependent on the pure offense. you can nitpick and say not always when a jungle carries because the other team is dogshit, but that is just that: A nitpick
It's a support to the rest of the team by definition and defined role. You have no argument.

>>717487458 (OP)
It's called The JEET dumbass.
>Job Encompassing Every Task
and it's been a thing since the 90s.

>>717487458 (OP)
There isn't a fourth class, but existing classes can be subdivided into two subclasses.

DPS:
>melee
>ranged
Tank:
>kiter (focuses on single enemies)
>crowd controller (focuses on groups of enemies)
Support:
>healer
>buffer/debuffer

>>717490165
Might be a bit too rude to call them that, just Utility works.

I don't play mobas. The fuck is a jungler?

>>717487458 (OP)
Just remove existing qualities and split them into new classes. You could have aggro support classes instead of tanks having aggro skills for example. Or split healing and buffing apart. Crowd control could be separate from all existing classes, ect.

In real life you'd have a tactician class directing the other roles.
Maybe we'll see that become a thing when dive-into-games machines are invented.

>>717490349
The issue is that everyone wants to be "good" at games now. Doesn't matter if it's a single player game where you can easily beat the story with any build. People will find "broken" builds. Said broken builds will trivialize the game and make people ask for harder content. Now dev focus is on balancing that content instead of just making goofy, fun shit that seems cool or roleplaying.

>>717490540
That's just a buffer, since actually having someone order the others around isn't likely to happen. Probably because the tactician isn't a perfect computer and will fuck up at some point, losing the rest of the group's trust - and without status to lean on like in real life they'll get booted. Plus no one joins a game to be told how to play by some other nerd.

>>717490614
MMOs have tacticians who watch streams and tell players how to do the mechanics.

Reverse the concept of roles. Instead of roles deciding what classes do, its what classes can do that decide what role they could take.
For example, a Fighter could attack as well as protect, but depending on how he would evolve, you could make him a Warlord that has his own troops that he can call, making him a support. He could break arms and legs, allowing him to debuffs the enemies, or do morale boost to his party, making him a buffer.
Basically, Classes have a broader kit and evolution, and the we leave the choice of roles to the players.

the 4th role would just be a Mezzer. Do people not use that term anymore?

>>717487516
Based
Bring back crowd control classes

>>717490682
But then how would we know what color to assign you in the party queue? You might end up without someone who can heal!

>>717490651
Yeah in established guilds doing raid content. Kind of hard to make a class that only works in that and no pick up games or what have you. Also I like Log Horizon too.

I think it is attack, control, defend, and support. Outside of very niche cases, most abilities can be sorted into those four. You just don't normally see a pure control role, usually its defend-control, or attack-control, or support-control.

>>717487458 (OP)
depends on the kind of game or system

in DnD where combat isn't always the objective of the game, the trifactor of Martial Guy, Magic Guy, and Utility guy makes sense. That 3rd guy is now someone who doesn't do well in combat, but is awesome for dealing with stealing, traps, locks, etc... While the Martial guy is mostly focused on hitting things good but in a lot of different ways, and the Magic guy can do anything magic can offer. other classes are just everything in between

in games where noncombat isn't much of a factor, the role of utility guy seems redundant, for people wanting to keep that rogue archtype, they just make him a fighter who's good at crits and uses poison but they're still just a fighter
so the roles in these kinds of systems become more distinct in the combat sphere. tank guy, damage guy, and healer. you can make a distinction between ranged, magic, and melee damage but their roles are all the same

>>717490614
It's more like that you 'need' a tactician if things become realistic enough. If you're a tank and you can only see in first person, you will lose track of the situation in no time.
That's where a tactician comes in, they have a clear view of the entire battlefield and understands what commands he should give the rest of his team.
If your tactician sucks at giving commands then that's the fault of the tactician, not the class.

>>717490761
that usually gets folded into support nowadays

>>717490761
That's just support.
See: >>717490451

DnD 4E had is made
>Leader
>Controller
>Striker
>Defender

>>717490963
>Healer is the leader
sissy hands wrote this

>>717487458 (OP)
already is, healer and support are not the same thing, healer class is for healing and support class is for buffing

>>717487458 (OP)
>jungler

ASSFAGGOT LOVERS GET THE FUCK OFF MY BOARD

>>717491003
say that to my face boot

>>717490791
Its fine. You could have enemies drop food to heal like in beat them up, or have the character regen overtime. Or simply have items to heal or "patch" the wounds.

>>717490451
I'd do it like so
DPS:
>melee
>ranger
>mage
can make use of weaknesses and resistances to these types
Tank:
>blocker - holds enemies in a specific spot
>positioner - repositions enemies to beneficial spots, is in charge of pulling more enemies
>crowd controller - manages annoying mechanics
Support:
>healer - recovers lost HP
>protector - applies statuses oriented around taking less damage, including shielding
>hexer - applies statuses focused on enemies taking more damage

>>717487458 (OP)
Only support exists.
Attacking and defending are just flavours of supporting.

>>717490963
I didn't play 4e much but the idea sounds great, thing is 4e was so hated we'll never get rid of the holy trinity.

>>717491003
Leader isn't just a healer, they also reposition, buff and give extra actions to their allies.

>>717491004
a system where one guy's role is to focus solely on managing party health is boring
its worse than having a fighter who can only hit things
giving the healer options to support the party is good whether it be buffs, debuffs, or even environment manipulation
just like how fighters are better off with the ability to redirect damage, and fuck with the enemy beyond making sure hit points get lower

>>717491210
This, dead enemuies can't deal damage to the party so my barbarian should be considered a healer.

>>717487458 (OP)
https://finalfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Green_Mage

>>717491230
supposedly Pathfinder 2E is similar to 4E (how ironic) so i gotta check that out

>>717490129
>But not every MMO is fantasy?
Every MMO worth playing is
No Elite dangerous is not worth playing.

>>717491301
black mage does damage (sometimes debuffs)
white mage heals and cures (and sometimes buffs)
red mage has access to both offense and defensive magic
blue mage copies
green mage just has support? seems underwhelming

>>717491301
Green Mage, my beloved...

>>717490963
And it worked perfectly but people were having none of that, they wanted insanely broken casters and retarded buildfaggotry based on autistic RAW rulings

>>717491126
>warrior
>ranger
>magician

>stalwart
>cavalier
>paladin

>druid
>dancer (female) / bard (male)
>occultist

>>717489724
What the fuck are you talking about?

Both a debuffer and a healer are just subsets of support.

Nix healers, broaden defensive option to avoid damage, have different aggros depending on enemies.
Think about it, do you see Indiana Jones, the Fellowship or Luke's group having healers?

>>717491414
>green mage just has support? seems underwhelming
they're full buffer/debuffers with some offensive and defensive magic (less than Red Mages)

>>717491328
I'm waiting for dragon's demand (it looks horrible but I still have a bit of hope it's not going to be a dumpster fire) to check out pf2e.
The 3 actions thing sounds good, same with turning surplus accuracy into crit chance but it suffers from tons of little roll bonuses like pathfinder.

>>717491328
It's incredibly gay and boring
Everything is bland, everything sucks, there are no cool flashy shit
Because of the way the system works, fighters and gunslingers are the strongest classes because of, I shit you not, a main class feature that is literally "+2 to attack roll compared to any other class of the same level"
It's corporate memphis the rpg

>>717487458 (OP)
This makeup of "core character classes" has always, always been bullshit. Pick class. Healer vs supplier vs buffer. Tanking vs protection. You can have characters intended to debuff, characters intended to kite, characters for doing certain objectives, like yeah unironically a pve compared to pvp, or whatever. This is just retarded. It's stupid.

>>717487863
>le retard still says le red instead of le rogue

>>717491617
I picked up a game the other day that uses the pf2e system, it's actually kinda decent
store.steampowered.com/app/2693730/Dawnsbury_Days/

>>717487458 (OP)
there was always sub-roles within the main cores.
>>717488587
is a decent example, there was always DPS but you could lean towards single target DPS; anti-boss or elite, or trash/add DPS. just like in tanking, offtanks generally are generally more about picking up anything that isn't the boss and can just do damage otherwise, pick up the boss if something happens to the main tank, etc.

all healers are support, but not all support are healers, even though some support COULD heal. this one is probably closest to being able to split off into a separate core, as highly specialized debuffers and buffers do exist, but a good amount of the time that's not their only role, usually flexing between dps or healer; red mage in FFXI was prized as sustain/defensive support (with bard being offensive support) but was the choice healer outside of extremely challenging content.

Is there a reason why /v/ so autistic about class archetypes? I don't why these threads are somewhat fairly common

>>717490468
geg good one

>>717491730
>is there a reason why the den of autism is so autistic

>>717487458 (OP)
Buff & Debuff guy.

>>717491730
its cool
the urge to categorize things in specific systems for games we wish we could make is fun

>debuff? that's support
>healer? that's support
>pick class? support
>DPS? support
>Tank? support too
Everything's support if you just claim it supports your team you stupid niggers

>>71749173
>anon sees other people having fun
>tries to join in, but doesn't get it
>calls everyone autistic out of frustration
>no one cares

>>717487458 (OP)

https://www.giantbomb.com/reviews/jungler-review/1900-273/

Final Fantasy 13 kinda made sense.

>tank
>dps
>healer
>buffer
>debuffer

Each role was unique. Syngerist/buffer and saboteur/debuffer felt like solid roles that were well defined.

>>717490129
I really like that idea actually.

I had one of those autistic class charts that looked like this but I can't find it.
Anyone?

>>717491824
>>debuff? that's support
>>healer? that's support
Correct. They neither directly damage the enemies, nor do they prevent the other party members from receiving damage.
>>pick class? support
Doesn't exist.
>>DPS? support
Does direct damage to the enemy, so it's part of offense, not support.
>>Tank? support too
Prevents others from being damaged by forcing enemies to attack them, so it's part of defense.

>>717490363
>you have no argument
Except you haven't refuted that the jungler is more similar to the ADC or other damage dealing carries due to the way they scale compared to a regular support. When caught out of a team fight, the support will crumple while the jungler will survive (and yes, despite the late game being team focused people still get caught out on their own in 1v1 or 2v1).
But fuck it, let's use proper stats then since you're being obtuse.
Regardless of how shit a game it is I'm gonna use LoL since finding stats for it is pretty easy.
According to https://u.gg/lol/jungle-tier-list?rank=overall which lists jungler picks for all ranks, the top 10 jungler picks with high win rates are:
>tanky damage dealers who can survive a while and dish out some cc
>examples: Trundle, Warwick, Volibear, Rammus, Mordekaiser
Even the champs listed that COULD act as a support if you were highly skilled (amumu, rammus, jarvan) are still better utilized in other lanes since they don't have the same supporting abilities that someone like Taric or Sona has (heals, buffs, cc, not much damage, maybe some tankiness).
Other MOBAs would likely have the same differences applied if they actually give a damn about jungle elements in their games.

>>717491746
>Yeah, do things that has already be done the same way.
Where is your sense of adventure?

>>717490682
eso has the system where every class can do everything and it still results in a hierarchy where you only bring the best and some classes are still just shit at certain things

>>717491975
>I'm gonna use LoL
Ahahahahahahahahahaha
You already lost this argument before it even started!

>>717491949
Who's Sandy Loam?

>>717487601
stabbing the boss is just another flavor of support if you think about it

>>717491949
look up "rpg class pyramid"

>>717487689
>>717487743
>GW2 removes the holy trinity
>don't actually replace it with anything
>a decade later and they're still throwing shit at the wall, trying to figure out structured PvE

>>717492012
THEN WHAT THE FUCK GAME ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT WITH JUNGLERS AND SUPPORTS????
DOTA 2????
SOME GOOK MMO LIKE BDO??????????

the nerd
the guy who doesn't go out to adventure (not without protection from the other guys) but is still valuable for making a honest buck, having knowledge on specific things you have to read a book for (wizards only like books about magic), making sure the party is getting their nutarian, or knowing how to categorize things
list goes on

>>717489976
>>717487516
I've literally only heard this for the first time but I really like the idea of a class that has some form of enemy control to maybe make some kind alleviation on team jump rope, FFXI with it's extended range of class abilities does have many classes that are able to put enemeis to sleep as a way of mitigating certain pressure during parts of the fight and I think that's basically a primitive example of that idea, thinking about the possibilties it could bring as being more enemy focused without doing damage is an interesting concept

Why is the Holy Trinity only a problem in MMOs? In solo game, you don't deal with that shit.

Step 1:
>All bosses AI doesn't work on aggro, but instead attacking the players intelligently - going after weakly armored enemies or enemies that are slow. Aggro does not exist in the traditional sense.
>Dedicated healers are now no longer a thing since they're easy targets.
>Dedicated tanks are now no longer a thing because what's the point of being able to take 1000 hits if the boss is ignoring you.
>All players must now build with 1 focus and one subfocus in mind. Whether that's damage and more damage. Or Damage and Tankiness.
Or Tankiness and healing or whatever.
There I fixed MMOs.

>>717490251
what is this the easter event?

>>717492108
https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/druid/archetypes/paizo-druid-archetypes/jungle-druid/

>>717492220
God damn it I've been had

Can't have even a third one if you apply broad enough strokes.
Look at support. Is it offensive or defensive support? It could fall into either category, a healer is technically a defensive character.

That is why it was specifically TANK, and not defense as an archetype. Since many different classes/characters had defensive properties, but only 1 (usually) per party would actually be the tank, soaking up the damage, and positioning the monsters.
Same for offense, its specifically DPS, because offense is too broad. DPS is meant to be characters that actually deal damage, no matter what flavour of damage that is, is it DoT, is it burst, is it sustained burst dps, no matter what brainrot you suffer from, if your job is reducing enemy HP bars you fall into the DPS category.
And support is the only appropriately named archetype in OP, because again, its broad enough to hit many different kinds of playstyles.

You can easily have a 4th core class, if you just move away from these descriptors and move into something like dota currently uses, 1-5 (farming priority), or if you move towards a mobility based descriptor (frontline, backline, roaming, stationary).
What kind of shitty video are you shilling even.

>>717492267
I'm not the original anon you were talking to, fyi.

Monster Hunter sort of solved this by having healing being done via items.

>>717487458 (OP)
>>717491824
>>717491886
The problem with this garbage is that only DPS gets to have fun and be a badass fighter. The others are gimmicks and sidekicks to the DPS.
Because of this, everyone always wants to be a DPS and it's the most common class.

>>717492305
it just depends on the system

>>717492323
My previous reply still stands, I've been got

only thing I found

>>717492305
>if you just move away from these descriptors and move into something like dota currently uses
Why don't we move into Forza if we're going to apply this to irrelevant games?
Subaru would make a pretty decent class.
As long as people don't pick Jaguar, I guess.

>role is called Jungler
>it's clearly a Woods
Unfortunately there's no word for someone who does things in the woods. So we'll call them Woodsers from now on.

I do see how jungler could be a 4th role
Tank is already a snowflake role. You are not dealing damage to the pack, you are support, but you support the team by holding aggro. Just like healer supports the team by keeping the tank alive and occasionally healing someone else
A jungler would be an extension of the “pulling” job, the guy who gets the attention of distant packs so they can get AOE’d down. It would probably need to be given some other responsibilities, like picking off snipers, delaying reinforcements, and assassinating sentries
These are sorts antithetical concepts to the classic mmorpg formula, but it could work in theory

>>717492438
They can also work in jungles though.
How about we compromise? We call them WOO (woods) + LE (jungle) + RS = woolers.
You know what else has wool? Sheep. So let's just call them sheep.

>>717492575
>but you support the team by holding aggro.
Ah, just like how a jungler supports the team by pulling!

>>717492365
Overwatch and Marvel Rivals are super popular with women because the support role is easy as fuck. They can run Mercy and feel like they’re competing against Diamond rank players while doing a fraction of the work. So even if a buffer/debuffer class might seem boring to skilled players who can actually play DPS, I guarantee you that there are going to be women and shitters who would love an easy no pressure role where they can feel like they’re part of the team as well.

>>717487458 (OP)
The premises is wrong. Many games have fulfilled additional roles.

It's the hexer/debuffer on opponents, and automaton meatshield. Guild Wars had a very interesting angle on this with mesmer interrupts and hexes and necromancer flesh hordes. Tinkerer/Inventor is another good one, like City of Heroes. Don't expect zoomies to know.

>Enemies have different aggros depending on "personality"
>Items are available, so its not a big deal to not have a healer
>Taunting and Stealth are debuff and buff instead of a dedicated enmity system

>>717491949
Clay main with loamy sand subclass checking in.

>>717492575
tanks are also frequently crowd control/stunners, in and out of an MMO context, and they also once upon a time drew aggro through actually having to do damage, as well, you had tools to aid you in aggro generation but you still had to do noticeable damage.

Buffer and debuff is fine for 4 niggas in a row, nobody wants to play that shit controlling one character in multiplayer

>>717492013
You don't want to go down that rabbithole

>>717491971
Debuff is in a class of its own, because its a new mechanic, silly 'logic' anon.

>>717492893
i like grid based games that play with board control. whether it be controlling where units are placed or controlling environmental effects
these factors are under utilized

>>717487458 (OP)
in league you can be a jungler whose role is pure damage, pure tank, pure shielding/support, pure crowd control, and any combination of the above. jungler is just a position

>>717492680
Guys who play as female characters are already bad enough. I don't need actually real females to shit up my video games even more.

>>717492962
>because its a new mechanic
Are you drunk?

>>717492013
Clay Loam's little sister(male). Do not search.

>>717493019
Just pretend its poorly coded ai that hates you and was put there by the jew to destroy your dungeon runs.

>>717487458 (OP)
Summoner
It genuinely doesn't fit into the DPS/Tank/Support triangle, and tackles an aspect none of them can. Having more bodies. Those bodes can do damage, tank or handle tasks so they do it all.

>>717491685
Already played it but its very low level so I haven't made my mind about pf2e yet

>>717493073
I'm not the one calling new mechanics like debuffs and interrupts 'support'. Mesmers and even assassins introduced a whole new dimension of gameplay that required skill where you could spam debuffs and interrupts.

Assassins were physical dps combined with debuffs, interrupts and poisoning.

Both break the retarded trinity, buttmad D&D enthusiast.

New gameplay mechanic that can't be imititated===new class. End of.

>>717493254
I thought there were other DLC adventure paths that raised the level cap, but I might be mistaken

>>717493245
>summoner
>"nuh uh, my speshul character can do infinity+1 damage!": the class

>>717493245
I'd say "Mob" as an archetype name fits better, since there are other classes besides Summoner that do it. Necromancers have undead minions, Leaders who bring soldiers, Classes that can split into multiple bodies, etc.

Anything that doesnt fall into "do damage" or "take damage" is a support class by default, hell, if you think about it tanks are just another form of support.

>>717493313
Guild wars 1 innovated a lot in this regard, because its design philosophy and business model demanded it.

Gw2 totally lost the based ranked pvp ball.

>>717493313
By that logic tanks are "new" as well.
Dps can tank, so the only "original" setup is a dps and a healer.

>>717493405
That Summoner/Mob class mentioned above does something else, they can do muliple tasks at once. Not even just for combat, like your minion could be flipping a switch down the hall. None of the triangle can do that.

>>717493428
I want to go back bros... it hurts... why...
https://youtu.be/Xi3uIEEhxo8?si=2Z47xkcdehjScq1i

>TSSSSSSSSHHHHHHHHH

>>717492407
that's the one yeah

I think you all got it all wrong. Holy Trinity is fine, but its place the MMO part in front of the RPG part.
If you want to innovate, then a focus on the RPG part is needed, and thus make a system that facilitate it.

>>717493482
>minion could be flipping a switch down the hall
So... Hes supporting

>>717493245
there are a few examples i can think of with summoner/pet classes being able to be classified as tank/dps/support. just being able to have non-player entities fight for you isn't enough to break out of tank/dps/support.

>>717493696
Just like a dps is supporting by dealing damage.

>>717493436
Except its not new. Its the founding model that guild wars deliberately tried to break and innovate upon. Context. Or is this your first day playing rpgs?

Assassins were squishies that dealt damage like a mage and debuffs like a mesmer. Though if we are classing by gameplay mechanics, it would be sort of a physical mesmer.

Automaton masters are a different mechanic in that case, introducing AI like minion masters. Guild wars was even moving towards steam punk inventors towards the end with asura, dwarves and golems.

Ritualist introduced environmental effects.

All new gameplay mechanics. It innovated in pvp playstyles too.

>>717493428
necro, rit, and mesmer from gw1 were some of the most fun i've had playing classes specifically in any mmorpg or mmo adjacent setting. they did so many things so right.

>>717493734
>guild wars
>"founding" in any way
lol
lmao

>>717487458 (OP)
le trinity only works when your game is just mashing numbers against each other
which even wow is not

>tank in ffxiv
>it's just a dps with the most aggro and biggest healthpool and a few skills to keep your healthpool full.

>>717493823
I feel WoW vanilla had the right idea.
Most specs were considered "DPS" but some were more leaning to pumping pure damage (Warriors, Rogue) but some had super valuable buffs or debuffs (Warlock, Mage).
Unfortunately the classes who could heal were fucked and were forced into it.

>>717494075
The problem with WoW and all other MMOs is that every class needs to be solo-viable.
Support classes should not be able to deal damage, period.

Maybe take away HEALTH? Why do all enemies have a set number of health. That's what is causing this "ATTACK DEFENSE HEALTHGUY."

TAKE AWAY HP.

>>717492220
you're a moron, 'jungler' is specifically a MOBA term

>"yeah hehe were soo quirky we added a new role: the FAGGOT role!"
>it's just a regular tank "but not quite! ;)" mixed with a regular healer "but not quite ;)" and a regular DPS "but not quite ;)"
many such cases
also op is a natural, as you might imagine

>>717493923
i will hate them forever for lobotomizing tanking in ffxiv. aggro actually existed as a concept at one point.
it used to be optimal to prime savage blade for tank swaps and picking up elite adds like in t7 or t9 for example, because rage of halone's animation was too long and the add could go off and dick on a healer or dps before the damage ticked, especially if you needed to burst it down asap.
there was quite a bit of nuance to 2.0 and 3.0 tanking that just made it an entirely different game.

>>717494180
And replace with what

>>717494180
any method by which you remove 'HP' will just result in a different stat that will have to be measured by a number and it will still effectively be 'HP'

>>717494180
That would require a realistic damage system where things like limb damage and reduced performance from those limbs - which would require a realistic movement system that can account for that. And I don't think we'll be able to get there for a bit. Probably when full immersion vr becomes a thing.

>>717494329
Just import it from Fallout

>>717494252
NTA, but maybe a bar with three threshold. When the bar is filled to the first threshold, he is wounded. The second threshold is a critical state, and finally when the bar is full, the character is K.O.

>>717492157
You missed the glory days of EverQuest, the Enchanter was the true crowd controll class with access to stun/sleep/aggro spells. A big danger in those games were large pulls and Enchanters could reduce the aggro radius of enemies for safer pulls, and enthrall additional adds that stay still until attacked. With how easy WoW made things such roles were redundant or made into a single skill (like Sheep for mages) instead of having encounters designed around the concept of crowd control.

>>717488026
>You don’t call someone “a slow” just because they cast Frost Trap.
I do, sounds like the retard class

>>717494524
I don't want to alarm you too terribly, but a bar is just numbers represented as a graphic
What you've suggested is to replace one health bar with three

>>717487458 (OP)
>>717487516
initiator

>>717487458 (OP)
>(focused) damage dealers
>tanks
>healers
>support (powerful buffs/debuffs/crowd control)
We had four roles before; normies were too fucking retarded so support was consolidated into the other three roles.
Look at games like Everquest and FFXI. Having dedicated supports in the party made a world of difference in enabling players to bend the game over their knees.

>>717494923
This. Or "Play makers".
Dota 2 classifies some heroes like this. Usually they are offlaners or junglers. They can't carry, but are still important late game. Earthshaker, Tidehunter come to mind.

Monster Hunter already solved this
>DPS
>DPS that can block
>DPS that can support

>>717495026
There is nuance though.
>>717494740
Anon, games are numbers.

>>717494923
>>717495001
see >>717494962
initiators existed back then too, they were usually hybrid support/dps with ranged pokes and maybe some crowd control. think of a typical thief or jungler in mobas
they'd either be supports or secondary damage dealers pulling the enemies over to the kill box

>Game has a support role/class/character
>All they do is provide passive buffs with zero interactivity while doing ass damage and playing otherwise the exact same as a dps

I think that having roles is a flaw in itself. It should be playstyle.

>>717495485
what game?
most games with a proper support role have micromanagement minigames or something else going on

melee (ground)
melee (air)
ranged (ground)
ranged (air)

>>717494563
>A big danger in those games were large pulls and Enchanters could reduce the aggro radius of enemies for safer pulls
if you had that shit today some retarded zoomer will pull out a 3hr video essay on how that's bad game design and it's against gamefeel and ludo-narrative dissonance or some faggy pseud shit like that
also if it's a class that mainly prevents or mitigates screw ups a "meta" will eventually be developed against not using it because pro-gaymer metafags control the narrative in online games

>>717487458 (OP)
I hope not, the "trinity" is already stupid as fuck
Everyone should always try to avoid getting hit, at most normal fighters and supports would be nice. MHW strikes that balance well, in that most people will just take whatever hits the best for their playstyle but you can fit wide-range or play a doot, or even get an IG with three different status effects and debuff the enemy. Tanks are such a fucked in the head concept, a relic left over from the days when enemies HAD TO stand there and slap a guy the entire time. It's an outdated mechanic from 2004, simple as.

>>717488026
> Frost Trap.
We just call those Freezers/Halters.

>>717487458 (OP)
what is it supposed to do? swing from vines and fuck monkeys?

>>717487458 (OP)
the subclasses just induce elements from other classes. jungler is damage with either supportive or defensive traits.

>>717495947
recon is just damage with supportive utility

>>717496064
I'll explain it because not everyone played MOBAs back when they were still okay (around 2010)
In MOBAs, there's the three lanes, but between those lanes there's "the jungle". It's inhabited by hostile NPCs and "the jungler's" role is to kill those hostile NPCs for XP and help out the lanes wherever they're needed.

As you can easily see, the concept of "the jungler" falls apart immediately once it's not a MOBA or a game structured like one, similar to how >>717495947 "the recon" falls apart once it's not a BR or at least PvP game with a massive map like Battlefield

>>717490491
It's the jonkler's brother.

>>717496159
>"the recon" falls apart once it's not a BR or at least PvP game with a massive map like Battlefield
is intel not important in every pvp game?

>>717496483
it's everyone's job to provide info no matter the game or role

>>717487458 (OP)
>one attacks
>one defends
>one does everything else
Gee i wonder why they can't make anything new.

>>717487458 (OP)
debuff
>but that's the same as support!
in that case, offense and defense are also the same thing

>>717496545
yes but instead of having someone watching the flank for info you could for example have an ability or deployable that spots enemies for you.

Talking about what roles you can add without first deciding the game mechanics is pointless and looking for new problems
>we should take duties away from the healer and give them to a 4th role
>why?
>so that players will be forced to bring a 4th role!

>>717496740
sounds like a supportive ability

>>717487458 (OP)
a "win condition" type like exodia

>>717496781
there's enough depth to it it can be its own role and by making intel a mechanic that necessitates counter intel. also unlike a healer/buffer they don't have to be near the team to use their skills.

>Tank
>DPS
>Balance
>Gimmick

>>717487458 (OP)
>Offense:
>deplete threat resources so it stops depleting yours
>Defense:
>slow down your resource depletion from threats
>Support:
>recover your / team's resources or help team reduce threat's resources faster
Can we all just admit that stacking offense is the sole functional strategy at the core of all gameplay and the other classes only exist because the designers wanted victory to take longer?

or

>In what other ways would YOU make victory take longer?

>>717496867
Hanzo in overwatch has an arrow that provides wallhacks in a field around where it lands. He can also hack healthpacks with it to make them spawn faster. But he's not put in a fourth role because his primary responsibility is securing kills. So he's a supportive damage dealer.

>>717496972
Being dead is a dps loss

>>717497038
instagibbing with initiative guarantees victory

>>717487601
I support by taking aggro and holding a shield.

>>717496987
just because a game doesn't designate intel as as its own class doesn't mean it's not important or can't be.

>>717493790
Learn to read idiot

>>717490085
>Healer
>Buffer
>Debuffer
Healers can do all 3
And some form of healing can be "Protector" as well in the form of "shielding".

The problem with pure support is that in newer MMOs, the role of "buffer/debuffer" are often put into DPS or healer kit.
Tanks can have some form of debuffing where they reduce the armor/resistance/defense of a boss with some form of attacks that contribute to damage too.

Basically pure "support" was simply killed and gave to every other classes in some form.

>>717497157
providing intel is support for your team, retard

mule

>>717487850
>Support is buffing your own party
This mentality is why nobody likes playing support

>>717497202
>blocking damage is supporting your team
>healing damage is supporting your team
retarded reductionist argument

>>717497212
I love playing support though.

>>717487458 (OP)
This is honestly such an oversimplification, even just "damage dealers" alone can be subdivided into so many different archetypes based on their unique features, long vs short range, mobility, burst vs sustained damage, single target focused vs clearing out crowds...

>>717497157
>doesn't mean it's not important or can't be
never said that. in fact I specifically stated that providing info is everybody's job. it's just not a separate class. even if you were just a ghost, unable to affect the game in any way except providing info, that falls under the support category.

>>717487458 (OP)
Merchant

crowd control as a designated role is usually a shit idea, dealing with enemy actions is where challenge comes from and having a character whose entire purpose is preventing the enemy from being able to take any action just trivializes any encounter unless you make them so hyper-specific that they only get a very limited amount of use per encounter in which case you'd preferably fold those tools into a different archetype

>>717496094
This. You can close the thread now.

>>717497195
>the role of "buffer/debuffer" are often put into DPS or healer kit.

Because that's where it makes sense.
>healer is responsible for recovering team resources (increase ehp / dps)
>can also debuff enemies to reduce the resource drain by either reducing ehp (faster ttk means less resource loss) or reducing dps (lower enemy dps means less resource loss)

>DPS are responsible for killing things fast
>can also debuff enemies to make ttk EVEN FASTER

Imagine being the class that doesn't even soak or deal damage, but just... supports... the other classes a little bit sort of, but without being able to recover.

Boring.

>>717487850
Support is logistics and providing the baggage train in wars

It's all supports that can't heal.

People keep saying the true holy trinity is Tank/Healer/CC, but is it really true? Like, what did CC do in boss battles?

>>717497534
>Imagine being the class that doesn't even soak or deal damage, but just... supports... the other classes a little bit sort of, but without being able to recover.
this wasn't anything out of the ordinary in older games, if your party is 40+ people then having niche roles like that is great, every player being a do it all snowflake is shit

>>717495947
>Recon
Just ping the enemy dumbass

>>717487458 (OP)
>>717487516
A CC/Buff/Debuff dedicated class ruins the game. Healer in most games outside of top tier MMOs like TERA are very boring to play and lack function beyond just healing which is not something that requires high apm, thus they need to provide mana, buffs, and debuffs as well so they have something else to cast besides the occasional heal and pitiful damage.

Just add a new resource bar and another set of DPS, Tank and Healer to interact with it. Call it Health2 and to win you need to deplete both Health1 and Health2. You now need six unique classes in your party.

>>717497534
this is only really a problem in multiplayer games where every character has to be interesting to play individually, rather than being interesting as part of a larger puzzle of team building and strategy

>>717495001
This is another word for the "tank"/defense role. Tank is the role that draws the attention of enemies and prevents them from attacking your squishier teammates.
In a PvP game this boils down to the guy who does aoe stuns and can quickly jump into the fight to draw in effects with self sacrifice or survivability

>>717497701
In that model, Tank double-dips and also does CC out of necessity, because your huge defense and hp mean nothing if you aren't the target, so that isn't even a separate class.

>boss battles
Exactly. How tf do tanking, healing, or cc even win battles without some dps? Makes zero sense.

>>717497407
your entire argument is because this fourth class does not exist in most games it cannot exist. this is like saying a game without healers cannot add one in.

Just make the trinity dynamic. For example, have a dungeon where healing get corrupted and thus it become a bad idea to have healers, which cause the players to restructure.

Maybe something like espionage or strategist? Somebody who does not have the ability to physically support by healing, buffing, debuffing, etc, so not a supporter. They have additional abilities for gathering information, and communicating this information with the team. Let's say they can use stealth to spy on the enemy, use callouts, place signs and map annotations to reveal enemy stations, and determine builds for the team i.e. 2 more DPS needed 1 less support and defense each.

>>717497872
>just have a dungeon that you cannot clear if your character is the wrong class

>>717497892
MMOs already have this role, it's just done by someone outside of the game

>>717497729
>>717497813
Sure but then your role is still support instead of tank or dps?
Niche support, but still support.

>>717494563
No enchanter can save you from the train

>>717497860
>b-but I'm helping by telling you where they are!
thanks, now fucking damage them?
>n-no my class only tells you where people and things are
so you're a glorified spectator. useless.

>>717487458 (OP)
>A role that only exists in a specific genre
McFucking kill yourself retard. Where is the "jungler" in an MMO?

>>717498049
>so you're a glorified spectator. useless.
It can be fun and useful depending on the game. Commanders in Battlefield who spam enemy spotting and UAV at sniper nests and control points are goated.

Why not find some other way to make cooperation fun?

>>717492365
Anon in almost every game where this matters the classical Sword and Board Hero is a Tank.

>>717487458 (OP)
>tanks take damage well and draw aggro from all sources, they are meant to be a wall. In pve they control all enemies on the field, and in pvp they are meant to outlast other players.
>dps is meant to kill the enemies attacking the tank, they can't take damage themselves. They can be focused on single target, aoe, melee, or ranged. In pve they kill enemies. In pvp they damage race other players
>healers heal and buff. They focus on the tank if it is taking all the attacks, and they heal the whole party if the enemies do aoe. They can't take or do damage themselves and need help from others. In pve they heal the party. In pvp they heal the party or die.
>jungler is meant to go off and follow a secondary objective, building up resources for the party. They prep an optional boss for a quick exp boost to the party, they earn money and gear for the party, they do hit and run tactics on the main fighting forces, and they prevent other junglers from doing the same. In pve they are a solo player. In pvp they are in a segregated match in the same space. If they were to be removed from the context of mobas they would crafting classes supplying items and gear for raids or other conflicts.
So basically just give crafters more content.

The missing core archetype is Healer.
DPS
Tank
Healer
is the holy trinity.

The potential 4th is support, which can be anything supplementary, abilities that are nice to have but often lack in pure power as a trade off for said increased utility.

>>717498115
I accept your concession.
>>717498146
commanders are just supports outside the battlefield

>>717490129
Which game does that?

>>717497534
>Imagine being the class that doesn't even soak or deal damage, but just... supports... the other classes a little bit sort of, but without being able to recover.
Isn't that basically RDM in FFXI?
Throwing Refresh on people every 30sec, throw debuffs on the target and helping whatever chainskills going?

>>717492365
Tank is actually the badass main character who leads the group
DPS is the Legolas sidekick who is cool and kills stuff and you can have a dick measuring contest with Gimli on the DPS meters

>>717498216
>commanders are just supports outside the battlefield
Yeah but isn't that different from regular ground support? It's its own meta-support class like a "strategist" or "director" since you're not even in the battles. That's a unique role nothing else can fill and can't be handled by other classes.

>>717495808
I love how Deadlock broke the mold and just made every character capable of doing almost anything depending on their build.

>>717490129
>But not every MMO is fantasy
Every MMO that ever got notoriety beyond a small circle of nerds is. Which isn't many anyway, it's just WoW and FFXIV. No, EVE Online or SWTOR don't even remotely compare to those two giants.

>>717498306
boring

>>717487458 (OP)
GW2 tried to do away with healers and it has an abysmal pve scene

>>717497534
>Imagine being the class that doesn't even soak or deal damage, but just... supports... the other classes a little bit sort of, but without being able to recover.
Kinda why I like the support archetype that is the "Jack of all trades".
Think Aion's Chanter.
Basically from the healer branch, so can heal, but also DPS and also buffs, debuff target with its 2h staff melee attacks, and also have aura buffs and also party wide shields.
God I loved playing as one, a shame AION is P2W/RMT KRMMOslop.

>>717487458 (OP)
So if you take ff13 you have
>tank does no damage but takes all attacks
>commando does normal health damage but doesn't break through defenses
>ravager breaks through defenses but can't finish off the enemy
>supporters are in a buff race against enemy debuffs
>debuffers are in a debuff race against enemy buffs
>healers heal the party.
So if you give all enemy bosses both a stagger bar and buff and debuff abilities that they are constantly applying, you can spread out the jobs. The issue being that healers handle buffs easily and dps handle debuffs normally.
Its an artificial split.

>>717498467
you'll cowards don't even stack offense

>>717498343
Every class in battlefield is a damage dealer with an underlying supportive role like providing ammo, better spawns, heals etc. I get what you mean by director, but really, the role is just the only person on each team that is entirely support-centric. Even if you had some rts elements implemented like spawning npcs to fight or whatever, you are still providing support to your team by essentially buffing their damage.

>>717498467
Its not because one failed to do it that we should give up on that philosophy. In fact, we should learn from its failure.

>>717497851
Initiators don't necessarily have to be durable or take aggro. All they need to do is start the fight with an advantage.
A good non-MOBA example I can think of is WoW Rogue. They can use out of combat tools like sap or distract to set up favorable fights. Their out of stealth combo of damage + CC allows their teammates to pop off.

>>717498560
I agree, but being the commander changes how your camera works, it's like you're playing a completely different game at that point.

It really feels like, even though any class could be used to play a commander, and you're doing support-oriented things that recover resources and do the healer buffer debuffer thing, there's also the intel and initiative aspect of it. You can only do that effectively with a bird's-eye view camera.

I can't think of that as anything but a unique role in the team dynamic. That's where I'm stuck with it, it's just the mechanical differences between it and all the other roles. If that doesn't technically justify it in your eyes, then I guess I'm just approaching roles and systems from an angle that happens to be convenient for me and only me.

>>717498210
You know what, I can get behind this but it can't be implemented in any current game, it would have to be put in a game featuring long campaigns/adventures, dungeons where you have to focus on resource management.

>>717487458 (OP)
builders

in terms of making numbers go up or down they're not unique, but intuitively they're their own thing
to simply call them "support" "damage-dealing support" "tanky support" or whatever doesn't accurately describe them

>>717498210
>>717499108
jungler / logistics / fixer / setupguy is literally >>717497209

Tanking is just a kind of support. There's only ever classes meant for combat and classes meant to enable classes in combat.

>>717487458 (OP)
Debuffer
Maybe a thief-like character who specializes in making enemies slower and shit

>>717499185
>support
>but your functions are immobile

The real trinity should be frontline (durable or expendable, can soak up damage and disrupt the enemy's coordination and positioning), backline (units with strong utility or damage but poor defense) and flankers (highly mobile and aiming to take out key high value targets or clean up after the enemy formation has been broken)

>>717499185
See
>>717493245
>>717493380
Your basically a stationary summon class.

non-combat intelligence.

>>717491949
>sandy/silty clay loam
Fuck these jack of all trades classes, pick a role instead of being shit at everything.

>>717499981
Bro just open a wiki lol

it already exists, it is in world of warcraft it's not that hard to figure out

Games like MMOs should ideally be heavily economy driven so there should be the option to play a non combat focused character and guilds should require players dedicated to crafting and earning money in order to progress

>>717487458 (OP)
platformer like mario

>>717487458 (OP)
pretty much.

>>717500024
t.silt

>>717487458 (OP)
There isn't anything besides 3 because in the end its a numbers game to reach the enemy HP to 0
It all breaks down from DPS
>Oops DPS cant hold enemy DPS without killing the enemy first, here's Tank
>Oops Tanks also can't hold enemy DPS for long, here's Healer to combat his DPS with HPS

Anything else is just extra flavors of the main 3.
GW2 understood this the best

>>717492054
>It still ends up being a fucked up trinity in its own way

BRAVO ARENANET

>>717487458 (OP)
its far easier to bring it down to 2 than it is to take it up to 4 as shown by this thread.

>>717487458 (OP)
Support and Healer should be 2 separate classes.

>>717502418
oh boy, rolling

>>717487458 (OP)
>See reoccuring shitpost on 4chan
>Make a 20 minute video about it
>1.5 million view

Niggerkiller1488xxx

>>717487458 (OP)
Support is just defense.

>>717503564
>see topic people talk about a lot
>talk about it in a video
>people look at it
Woah what a revelation!

If healer can be support, then why can't support be healer?

>>717487601

Obviously you never played everquest 1

Crowd controller was indeed a fourth role, so strong you couldn't play properly without one. And it required talented people to play it too.

It's not

>could there be a fourth core class?

it was more of the case of

>why did we kill the fourth core class?

Crowd control in everquest wasn't like wow "oh before the fight sheep that guy there", it was an active role that require use of direct crowd control, and short burst AOE ccs too, that you had to know when to use to not burn your mana and keep people not getting wrecked.

Healers couldn't heal enough in many cases, you needed someone mitigating the damage through CCs too

>>717504178
>that you had to know when to use to not burn your mana and keep people not getting wrecked
That's already too much for the average MMOlet
Remember that most normies can't handle more than a five button rotation

>>717487458 (OP)
The Area Controller
Any class based around area denial and control.
You could make an argument that they could fall under the "Support" class, but at that point "Support" may as well mean "Every class that has tools to help achieve the overall goal", which is all of them.

The answer is the niggler
The token black guy
His class is being black

>>717487458 (OP)
I think most games already do this. There's straight up unga bunga DPS and there's high mobility flanker DPS.

>>717488536
Then it's called jogger.

Jungler is too moba specific. I don't play mobas so I don't really even know what the Jungle is.

>>717487458 (OP)
Yeah, the buffer. Korean MMORPGs used to have that. You had people sitting around, selling just their buffs. You paid them and they buffed your group. Which is as unfun as it sounds. So they got done away with, and buffs are now spread among all the other roles.

>>717487458 (OP)
yeah easily. debuffer could a dedicated role that does nothing but debuff or buff characters. "support" encompasses many roles, often which are mashed together unnecessarily.

in FFXI, a group regularly contains more than just these 3 roles. red mage, bard, summoner, are all considered "support" but do it very differently.

>>717487458 (OP)
Juggler makes much more sense than Jungler.

"Support" is just a catch-all for anything that isn't explicitly offense/defense

>>717487458 (OP)
Everyone knows that it's called the puller.

Will we ever go back to the style of MMO where mobs are so hard you need a dedicated crowd controller or you will wipe? I miss enchanter and bard archetypes.

>>717487458 (OP)
>>717488026
Jungler is ASSFAGGOTS speak. Fuck off.

>>717487458 (OP)
Rapist.

He just shows up at random and rapes everything, enemies. Allied npcs, enemies, the bosses, the players. He just shows up rapes a bunch of stuff and leaves.

Do it like rotmg where everyone's a different country flavor of dps with their own (somewhat) unique buffs/debuffs

>>717487458 (OP)
Support should not have healers grouped up with them.

>>717487458 (OP)
Have a game focused on positioning, where you need to be in the right place to do damage, tank damage or support, and then have a mover class that is focused on making sure both allies and enemies are in the right place, with other classes having only a limited number/scale of movement abilities.

>>717514486
sounds like the most rage inducing experience possible for anyone except the mover

Fortune Teller.
He reads fortune of the party and can tell in advance if fight would fail. That way players can start blaming Tank/Healer/DPS in advance, depending on specific result of fortune reading.

>>717487458 (OP)
It's called a Jongleur.

>>717514486
Imagine using skills like that for anything but trolling.

>>717487458 (OP)
No we need to keep the trinity so paint-huffers always gravitate to DPS and leave the importaint roles alone. If you are playing a tank or healer I expect to clear content or you're out on your ass pal!

>>717487458 (OP)
League of legends is such fucking trash and everyone who plays it knows this. Why do people do thing that they hate?

>>717516164
>Main a priest
>This spells comes out
>Breaks during raid becomes a habit for everyone to logout because I keep killing them while they go afk
So many good memories, So many repair bills

>>717494180
Maybe take away GAME? Why do all videos have GAME. That's what is causing this "VIDEO GAME."

TAKE AWAY GAME.
*retard noises*

>>717487458 (OP)
>"support" class
>look inside
>nothing but healing
Support is honestly a combination of a bunch of stuff. I like how DND has it. You got Damage, Tank, Healing, Buff/Debuff, Crowd Control. Classes can be a combination of any of those. A Druid and Bard can both "Support" but it'll usually be different methods.