holy shit. how did hollow knight because the greatest metroidvania of all time and one of the best games of the 21st century?

shit thread

It's ded, Jim.

>>717496073 (OP)
>illusion of motion

what the fuck does that even mean?

>>717497167
the illusion of the game releasing, if you will

>>717497167
Illusion noun
[countable] something that seems to exist but in fact does not, or seems to be something that it is not

Mirrors in a room often give an illusion of space.
The idea of absolute personal freedom is an illusion.

see also optical illusion

Motion noun
[uncountable, singular] the act or process of moving or the way something moves

What was Newton's first law of motion?
The swaying motion of the ship was making me feel seasick.
Rub the cream in with a circular motion.
in motion (formal) Do not alight while the train is still in motion (= moving).

Hope you learned something today my friend

This shit is so overhyped. As if Hollow Knight wasn’t bloated to shit and extremely basic, I’ll never understand why people suck off Bug Souls.

>>717497650
atmosphere/svoul, i wouldnt expect you to understand

>>717497650
It’s hard carried by the art and music. Silksong, for what pitiful scraps we’ve been allowed to see, looks like it has improved gameplay so hopefully it’s at least more fun to play.

>>717496073 (OP)
Hollow Knight: Silksong utilizes persistence of rumor to create the illusion that it actually exists.

>>717498551
>tfw the latest update was some dude ran into ari in a coffee shop and bluntly asked "still working on it?" and ari said "yep" 3 years ago

>>717497650
>Game bad because... TOO MUCH CONTENT!!

>>717498478
I understand just fine dear anon, doesn’t change the fact that it’s a ‘troidlike and gameplay in the first ten minutes isn’t significantly different from ten, twenty, even thirty hours in. The combat and traversal fucking suck.
>>717498640
It could have been half the size and people would still adore it. It overstays its welcome.

>>717498478
This looks like a tumblr parody of a much better game

>>717498640
>every game should be 100 hours long

I played the game when it released on the switch and couldn't get into it
Reminded me of a newgrounds flash game, one of the try hard ones not the funny cool ones

what went wrong?

>>717498698
nah it was a good length, your opinion is wrong
also everyone agreed they're called hollow-likes now btw since the last metroid was a pile of dogshit

>>717498721
I felt the same when I started playing the game; I still hate how much it resembles flash games
I also finished it twice and enjoyed it very much.

>>717496073 (OP)
I found Hollow Knight had amazing atmosphere and music, but I fucking hated the game itself.
I don't get why, either. I should love it
>World building
>Exploration
>Refuses to hold your hand
>Challenging
But I bounced off it all the same. Maybe it was because at its heart it was a platformer? I don't know.

>>717498698
I don’t disagree, I played it for the first time a few months back and from a mechanical perspective it isn’t very interesting. But not every game has to be, it’s a masterclass in environmental storytelling and beautiful to look at.
>t. Metroidfag

>>717498748
its like 50hrs if you do literally everything and aren't bad at video games

>>717498795
I beat it and felt nothing special to it compared to modern Metroidvanias, Super Metroid is still all you need

>>717496073 (OP)
Reddit game

>>717498614
I'm not sure if I love that or hate that about team cherry. I respect wanting to fuck off, not deal with consumers, and just make game, but a "hey how ya doin, we're still alive and working on it, don't worry" would be nice

>>717498791
nobody actually does that you dumb bloated nigger

Hollow Knight is the only universally praised game I could never get into, and I've tried multiple times

>>717498902
Skill issue

>another decade of HK seething but now with Silksong too

How does it feel?

>>717498640
Yes. That is indeed possible. Lots of games overstay their welcome. It's admittadly a lesser sin than a game being way too short for the asking price, but it does happen. Most singleplayer campaigns should be between 10 and 50 hours.

>>717498902
tbf its full of bugs

>>717498827
that's not the point disingenuous retard

>>717498827
Not unless you use a guide.

I found hollow knight painfully slow and unfun.

>>717498840
SM is a far better game, agreed
to this day I consider it top 5, it was my favorite SNES cartridge, had to save and do chores a whole year to buy it (it was 175usd in my shit south american country)
are there any other modern titles that can be considered in the same conversation as SM?

>>717499004
yeah like i said, unless you're bad at video games
>YOU MUST'VE CHEATED AND USED A GUIDE
nah

>>717498996
>disingenuous
im not the one claiming games are over 3x as long as they actually are
https://howlongtobeat.com/game/26286

>>717496073 (OP)
They take too long to make it.
It will be trash.

Shit is way too fucking long. 27 hours for a metroidvania is insane. You can beat the whole 2d metroid saga in that time

The devs probably regret even announcing the game so early, and then taking this long, because now it has to live up to unrealistic expectations.

>>717499119
maybe thats why no one plays them anymore...

>>717498640
"content" is the keyword, it being original, thought out content with effort put in is one thing, but i like to play a game, experience what it has to offer then move on, and it's quite retarded how many games consider pointless tedium to draw out the runtime as valid content, or copypasted content
when you've played more than 2 videogames, you'll start to get what i mean

>>717499127
It has the same audience as rollslop, any shit game design will be hand waived

>i want the game to be SHORTER
>REMOVE the extra shit
>REMOVE grimm troupe
>REMOVE the real final boss
>REMOVE the new bosses in the boss rush mode
you guys dont actually play video games do you?

>>717499004
finished it twice, second time with 112% completion, without using a guide, and have 110 hrs of total game time

>>717499127
>unrealistic
They only had to do the stretch goal of making hornet playable.
They did that to themselves

>>717499234
Fillershit is mind numbing garbage no real gamer would ever ask for in a game

>>717499227
>literally every thread
>YES BUT WHAT ABOUT DARK SOULS?!!?!?!?!
fucking mindbroken lmao

>>717498748
You are just an ADHD zoomer, a lot of people who played it would be happy with a sequel that is 100 hours of the same type of gameplay but with new locations and story. The atmosphere is so good that it is a joy to spend 50+ hours playing through it. Talking about it is making me want to replay it right now.

>>717499287
if you want grimm troupe removed you're not white (no surprise there)

>>717499127
>because now it has to live up to unrealistic expectations.
My expectations have been pretty static ever since the first trailer.
They're high. But it's not like they've kept growing or anything just because it's taken half a decade. Why should it?

>>717499090
Now post your progress

Hollow Knight is fine, just bland. Worst thing it does is have weapon upgrades make enemies take more hits to kill.
There have been at least half a dozen equal or better metroidvanias since. All of which are similarly only worth playing once and not talking about again.

If you don't like Hollow Knight, you don't like video games.
If Hollow Knight is your favorite game, you don't like video games.

>>717499234
I believe it's not about MUH CONTENT, it's about the game being tedious and spread thin. I like Hollow Knight but it starts very slow

>>717498748
A 80 dollar meal is gonna nourish my body for weeks, a 80 dollar game should have the same amount of playability

>>717499443
If you like Hollow Knight you haven't played many video games

>>717499340
I figured all this time that it was the Americans that had trouble digesting things but it turned out it was europe and southeast asia instead

>>717499484
This. If it had the same amount of content but the map was like 15-20% smaller it would be a much better game. The slow platforming and incredibly gay runback mechanics only serve to artificially extend an already long game. It’s a cheap trick that isn’t actually the result of having more depth.

>>717497167
Ever heard of animation?

itt, people buthurt that a widely popular game isn't their jam,
imagine trying to read a literary classic and discovering it's boring to you, then complaining online that it actually sucks and the world is wrong for liking it and lavishing praise on it
nigger move on with your life, art is subjective

Leave Hollow Knight to me.

>>717499736
very defensive language, why do you feel so threatened?

>>717499874
that anon is 100% correct you stupid faggot

>>717499787
Nine Sols mogs Hollow Knight and it’s not even close.

>>717499526
I have played all of the highly praised Metroidvanias and Hollow Knight is one of the best in the genre.

Reminder that if you see someone's complaints about the game are literally just the same fucking bulletpoints every time they're probably on some agenda. Whether that's autism, the sharty, or some other retards.

The "bloated" shit comes up literally every time Hollow Knight comes up, but you know how fast you can beat the game without just glitching to the end? 40-ish minutes. You know how fast you can do every single thing in the game that gives you completion (aka 100% it)? three hours. Even if you doubled both of those. Even if you tripled them, or quadrupled them, it wouldn't support this idea of a "massively bloated game with too much shit you NEED to do". But they repeat this same talking point over and over again, presumably because someone at some point remarked about how they got SO tired of the content and gave up, and they've been running with it for years.

>>717499907
But (you) are mad so ultimately I am the victor. Your game is overrated slop and appealing to popularity does it no favors, as the average gamer is a fucking retard.
>>717499962
>NOOOOOO stop calling attention to the bloat stop it stop it every criticism needs to be unique or it doesn’t count!
Sorry anon but it is objectively bloated with worthless content and overstays its welcome.

>>717499736
/v/ is contrarian about everything but HK gets hit with it even more because in terms of sustained popularity it completely shits all over the rest of the genre. Which makes fans of other metroidvanias lash out.

>>717499174
>original, thought out content with effort put in
Which perfectly describes the vast majority of Hollow Knight's content.

meh I didn’t love it, didn’t hate it. I enjoyed my single playthrough but anytime I think of going back I remember long stretches of basically nothing and lose the desire to boot it up

>>717499931
nah

>>717500210
I wonder how much this game has actually sold by now.

>all the ESLs ITT trying to make sense of OPs image and not clocking that it's literally just explaining animation
You CANNOT make this shit up. /v/ truely is full of brown retard mutts LMFAO

>>717496073 (OP)
It really isn't. It's just bloated with artificial hype due to youtubers and streamers swearing that it's a great game. Hollow Knight is by no means bad, but it literally reuses ideas from other games in the genre with th Devs coming up with different names for said things to look smart

>>717499962
>the same criticism always comes up when the game is discussed
>maybe for some people the game is actually too long, considering the average playtime in the genre is 1/3 of the average playtime in HK
>...no, the game is too good, it must be a conspiracy of shitposters

>>717500596
lmao HK is literally the posterboy in the genre for word of mouth

This game got smothered in its first year

>>717500596
Insane to me that they are even copying nine sols parry mechanics as seen by Silkstone trailers with the new guy you play as lol

>>717500210
in no shape or form a metroidvania:
dead cells
fallen order
arkham city and asylum

>>717500653
Nigga it's about 20 hours for a playthrough where you don't engage most side content. 40 for one where you engage most and 50 for 100 percent. And it costs 15 bucks.

I skipped out on metroid dread because you'd have to be high to think I'm paying 60 bucks for 5 hours of content.

The worst part is knowing that due to how long it’s taking to make, Silksong will be just as bloated. Team Cherry literally does not know how to stop. The game was for all intents and purposes probably done over a year ago.
>you are reminded that the stretch goal was merely to make Hornet playable in the base game
>no one asked for an entire new game that would take another decade to make
I’m sure it will still be a good game tho. But I’m fully expecting it to be seriously overdesigned and lacking a singular vision.

>>717500773
>muh dollar per hour
next do a food or car analogy

>>717500664
Something tells me that's probably why Silksong has been delayed so hard. They ran out of ideas but knew more Metroidvania games were a given, so thel held off to scope out the competition and copy their homework.

>>717500845
>hmmmm yes Mr sheckleberg thank you for this generous offer of 20 minutes of playtime per 10 dollars hmmm so good ty, why yes, my children would love to die for isreal!
Boot sucking faggot

>>717500664
The trailer for silksong showing parrying came out before nine sols you absolute reta-
>Silkstone
Lmfaooo chinks are seething

>>717500910
>buys games
>complains about jews and israel
lol
lmao even

>>717500910
>quantity over quality niggers when you catch them lacking
goddamn he touched a nerve lmao.

>>717500653
Maybe the other companies should step it up. Its honestly quite humiliating with a team of 3 people absolutely content and price MOG the creators of the genre

>>717500773
>20 hours for a playthrough
according to how long to beat it averages at 27 hours, most metroidvanias are less than 10 i took 35 because im bad at videogames and i did some major exploring

it is a long game, maybe that's not a problem for you but for some people it is, how hard its to accept that god damn

Don't care. The general consensus (see: the vast majority of everyone) thinks hollow knight is kino. Silksong is currently one of gaming's most anticipated titles and is essentially the new half life 3 in terms of delays and hype rising. You cannot change this. You cannot dispute this. Be an outlier as much as you want, you won't win.

>bugfags increasingly fixated on comparisons to other games and appeals to popularity
A little self-conscious of your slop’s incredibly basic gameplay are we?

>>717500773
>I skipped out on metroid dread because you'd have to be high to think I'm paying 60 bucks for 5 hours of content.
you did good.
it's 5 hours of content and 0 hours of fun. what a dogshit game.

unless you get off to women getting impaled, in which case there's about 40 seconds of samus death animations that might be worth checking out

I want Silksong to never come out just to spite the zoomer faggots who never shut up about it, DESU.

>>717498902
it's reddit game

>>717501476
is there a universally praised modern popular game that isn't reddit?

>>717501547
No. We failed to gatekeep the hobby. The more popular a game, the worse it is. Hollow Knight is peak Redditcore.

>>717499787
The atmosphere of 9S is just so much better. But it's undeniably a lot shorter

>>717499787
>>717499924
i kinda wish it was longer

Bloodstained Ritual of the Night is 1000x better in every and all conceivable ways

>>717498936
I've come to learn that some anons just want to be angry about stuff.

>>717501685
bloodstained is ugly as fuck, refunded that shit in 10 minutes

>>717496073 (OP)
>consolefag experiences 60 fps for the first time

>>717500121
>>717500653
>It's literally just [three synonyms in a row]
Well now that I write that, maybe you're actually a giga-brain retard and you're just pressing your previous point. In any other context this would just make you a retard. Either way.
>Every complaint needs to be unique
Criticisms usually have to be valid to stick. I can't just say the original Super Mario Bros. game doesn't have enough story content and that's why the game sucks. But if I said that, and then it was repeated ad nauseum by some third party every time Super Mario Bros. was brought up for 5 years, someone would probably notice.

Calling Hollow Knight bloated only has the "illusion" of validity. You see it posted above. "How long to beat." 27 hours? Jesus Christ, this game has as much content as GTAIV! No wonder people get tuckered out!
But you also see the argument this is attached to. "You could beat the whole Metroid series in that time." I feel like this frames the entire argument in a certain way. It's saying that you or someone believes that it's an entire 27 hours of REQUIRED playtime, start to finish, with no variation thereof. And this is the crux of it. As in modern Farcry you have to do a lot of busywork to be ALLOWED to progress with the story, in Hollow Knight it's not the same.
As I said the game, if you knew what you're doing and where everything is and what the fastest route is to go and what have you. If you were rushing through it metroid style without any of the skips and tips and tricks that speedrunners use, it would be about 3 hours. Without dying. Playing the game well.
And if that's the case then where does this figure really come from? If you're good at the game and rush it you can beat it in under 5 hours, so why is the average 27?

Simply put, it's because people don't know about a game when they start it. They aren't good at it. And, they probably feel compelled to do all the content they come across. The game is just an illusion of being "big".

>>717501642
That’s a good thing. I’d rather play a curated high-quality experience than an overlong slog that never switches up its mechanics once in a billion years.

>>717500210
Deedlit is better than all of these except maybe blasphemous but blasphemous feels like playing a living nightmare.

>>717501842
Didn’t read that, I can feel you malding from here. Thanks for the (you) tho

>>717499787
>tribefagging
Your ilk will never be one with Tao

>>717501969
You don't need to post a selfie.

>>717501845
True, and normally I would agree. But I just recently finished nine sus and while the main game was excellent, I'm now left wishing there was more to do. But the only things left are to grind the boss rush for no-hit or speedrun challenges, or play the entire game all over again (which I'd need to do anyway for the one stupid robot fight achievement which is well hidden and super quickly missable).

>>717502025
>n-no u!
I accept your concession.

>>717502054
Go back to funnyjunk.

>>717500338
Lol.

>>717502113
That’s rich coming from a redditor.

>>717500524
It's gotta be at least a couple mil at this point. Nine Sols has apparently sold 900,000 copies and it's only been out for a year and isn't half as popular.

>solsfags are so irrelevant they have to latch on to superior games' threads to have any discussion
lmaoing

>>717502197
>No denial
Mostly I think you should learn how to actually use reaction images because it's not whatever the fuck you're doing half the time.

>>717502318
I farm (you)’s just fine, what’s the problem? Why you still mad tho?

>>717500664
>>717500858
Silksong was showcasing parrying before the Nine Sols got a demo. If anything both games got the idea from Sekiro.

>DUDE LE HECKING SILKSONG WHEN BEST GAME EVA
I hope you cocksucking fanboys never get your shitty DLC for your shitty game. You are so insufferable.

>ITT:
>this game is too long, I don’t really like-
>NO STUPID NIGGER FAGGOT RETARD LONG=GOOD
This just in- if everyone has the same complaint about your game it’s probably true, kek.

>>717502424
Because you haven't read my post. Go read it and debate me.

>>717502004
I don't give a fuck, apefag

>>717502458
>If anything both games got the idea from Sekiro.
This, Nine Sols literally markets itself as hollow knight x sekiro

>>717501776
Based.

>>717496073 (OP)
It didn't. It was fucking terrible.

>>717500210
Why wouldn't it be popular? It's available in a number of platforms and is a newer entry in the genre and thus one that streamers will focus on over a 20+ year old game. Zoomers primarily get their gaming rec from streamers and places like reddit so of course they'd flock to it.
That in no way changes the fact that it has a number of flaws and is not one of the best in the genre.

>>717500910
>Mr sheckleberg
wanna know where your hollow knight money went?

>>717502595
Nah. I’d rather call you a retarded bloatfag and watch you keep seething. Try making a more concise post next time, instead of writing in your diary.

>>717501842
Bloated post from a bloated game lover.

>>717502524
damn you're mad as hell

Is /v/ just mad that their darling little hidden gem became stupidly pppular?

any good similar games while waiting for Silksong?

>>717502803
If you won't read it, then fine. I win.

>>717498721
I put it off for years because the artstyle looked too tumblry to me, then I played it a bunch of times and got it down to a two hour speedrun
it's a fun game

>>717500210
Popularity is not an indicator of quality.
See also: Battlefield, Call of Duty, Fifa, AssCreed, etc.

>>717496073 (OP)
Bug sex.

>>717502835
Yeah I am, now what?

>>717502952
Those all have quality tho

>>717503023
true, shitty quality is still quality

>>717502914
>you didn’t engage with my wall of text therefore I am the w-winner
Your post is as bloated as your kusoge, your victory as hollow as your knight.

>>717502898
the cat one

>>717502853
No, I thought Hollow Knight fucking sucked from the first moment I played it.

>>717502853
That's literally all this shit is. Same thing happened with Undertale, Pizza Tower, or really any indie game that came out in the last ten years. /v/ throws an actual screaming tantrum because they took off.
>>717502898
Nine Sols.

>>717503068
All I hear is
>I consneed, please fuck my wife
Thank you for your kind words.

>>717503068
>your victory as hollow as your knight

>>717503058
It's all videogames series that also had extremely quality videogames iterations but even the most shitty out of all of these is still one million floors above your trashy overhyped gay indie trash.

>>717503079
>the cat one
picrel?
>>717503119
>nine sols
I played it but still thanks for the suggestion

>>717503119
I actually like Undertale and Pizza Tower though.

>>717503261
A rich person's turd is still a turd even it he took a shit one million floors above an indian shitting on the road.

>>717503119
Anon you're saying the only reason /v/ has to hate queer low effort tumblr video games with terrible fandoms, that are only worse copies of other better older games, is contrarianism, you look very silly right now

>>717502898
ENDER MAGNOLIA: Bloom in the Mist

Why are nine sols fags so insecure

>>717503339
You wouldn't even be able to tell the difference between a turd and a goldbar

>>717503339
>I USED TO ENJOY CONSUMING RICH PERSON'S TURDS THO ANON!

Despite what the retarded tribefags say, Nine Sols isn't really shorter than Hollow Knight so much as New Kunlun just smaller than Hallownest, and the focus is different. Nine Sols is very story-focused, where as Hollow Knight focuses more on the world itself.

>>717503460
I can if you let me shove both up your ass and see which one goes in easier

>>717496073 (OP)
>utilize persistence of vision to create the illusion of motion
>done by rendering multiple still images, known as "frames", in rapid succession
What retard typed this shit up? This is how animation and video works. This dumbass post just says "Silksong will be animated"

>>717503629
Are you German by any chance

>>717496073 (OP)
>Thread and shitflinging starts from a fucking parody account

>>717503530
You still would have to find the difference between my ass and a goldbar first

>>717498748
You control the pacing. Just stop playing it and come back later.

The Indie World is starting
now

>>717503525
You're right about the focus, but it doesn't mean the game isn't shorter. In particular, the fact that Nine Sols levels are a lot more self-contained and linear makes it much more pleasant to progress through the main game, but it also makes it easy to pick up all the "side content" directly as part of your main linear playthrough provided you just explore a bit rather than rushing to the end of the area as fast as possible.
The result is a very tight and narrative-driven experience (especially given how many sidequests are very story-rich themselves), but it also means once you get to the end in ~30 hours with all the sidequests done and beat the true ending, there's basically nothing else to do in the game like I said here >>717502051

To be fair I guess once the world is destroyed there's not much that you could possibly have as post-game content. But still, the fact that you can explain the reasoning behind it doesn't mean that it isn't true.

>>717503746
bitch please, if your ass was made of gold you'd be on OF making money right now not arguing about indie games on 4chan

>>717503746
>>717504223
>>717503530
>>717503460

This shit is mad gay yo.

>>717504337
you are in a HK/Silksong thread anon... it's like going into a gay bar and be confused about gays kissing...

>>717503068
>your victory as hollow as your knight

>>717504532
Or just go into 4chan to begin with

>>717496073 (OP)
Kek, that sounds like something Kojima would would write.

>>717499119
>>717501842
wtf? it legit took me longer to beat super metroid than hollow knight casually and i only played super metroid as an adult

>>717502989
Calm down, Okay?

>>717496073 (OP)
Who gives a shit? Release the damn game or just cancel it at this point.

>>717498614
Latest update was the new trailer footage and confirmation that it releases before the xbox handheld

>>717499234
>REMOVE the hours of walking through the same grey blue corridors at the speed of ass
This is the problem. You spend the majority of the game walking through samey empty halls with little to no content in them. When I walk through a massive room with no enemies only to find a dead end with a cryptic 2 sentence "lore" dump I feel like the game wasted my time.

>>717505881
sybau and enjoy the heckin atmospherino

>>717496073 (OP)
I love 2D games. It’s got a big map and good music. I like the fluid movement.

>>717503068
>your victory as hollow as your knight.
based castlechads showing who's the boss here

>>717503068
>your victory as hollow as your knight.

>>717503236
>>717504703
>>717506146
>>717506254
nice samefagging

>>717497310
lol

>>717503068
>your victory as hollow as your knight

>>717503380
>you are arguing that /v/ is contrarian
how is he wrong?

>>717499787
Nine Sols will always hold a special place in my heart, but one can't deny the world connection and layout are nowhere near as complex and interesting as Hollow Knight. Though it can certainly look more gorgeous.

>>717498640
ubisoft games are good because you can collect 800 letters/feathers/condoms

>>717503669
NGL, that is probably the most random reply I've ever gotten on /v/. No, why?

>>717508548
Just noticed your impeccable sense of humor is all

>>717508623
Got a chuckle out of me for that one. Thanks, anon.

>>717496073 (OP)
Silksong is a social experiment, it is not a real game.

>>717503068
>tortanic/shazamtrannies now will try to predict a game all but guaranteed to make money flopping long after they got slaughtered by elden ring

>>717496073 (OP)
>fake fps
>fake lighting
>fake resolution
>soon fake motion
amazing, everything will be soon FAKE and GAY

>>717498902
It's only insanely boring for the first few hours it seems. I never get further than that but I assume it must get better

>>717507959
HK might have bigger world building but its storytelling is ass. It has a boring protagonist so character interactions are more one sided and one dimensional, and its main story relies on vague lore dumps and disconnected encounters rather than a more cohesive and tied together narrative.

>>717509386
>anyone who makes fun of my game is a tortanicfag
I don’t want Silksong to fail, I just think Hollow Knight is mid as fuck.

>>717498748
>zoomer frog
>bad faith strawman
Strawmen is the most zoomer method of communication. It would only make sense that you are avatarfagging.

>>717496073 (OP)
Its not. You just have shit taste.

>>717498902
I tried it after Ninesols which is an absolute unique gem and it was such a massive letdown. After a few hours i was like this shit is just a terrible platformer, with boring combat and horrible area design that is bloated to hell. You run past 10s parts of a map in some areas with nothing really setting em apart. Quit a bit after the soul tyrant boss, because it was just too annoying to play.

>>717510045
>world building
I meant the actual physical world is built better gameplay-wise. Because it's filled with as much secrets and goodies anybody could possibly want from a metroidvania that opens up extensively given upgrades, and even some ways to shortcut around those upgrades with clever uses of game mechanics or map knowledge. Nine Sols being the more linear experience doesn't really have this quality and as such you don't find yourself backtracking as much to discover something new in an area you've been to before. Albeit there are some exceptions, but they're almost always critical story related ones. The amount of hidden stuff across the ship is quite minimal.

>>717512057
>Nine Sols being the more linear experience doesn't really have this quality and as such you don't find yourself backtracking as much to discover something new in an area you've been to before
This is the entire reason I picked up 9S because "oh you completed an area? cool you'll have to do it 5 more times to ACTUALLY get to all the useful stuff in it lawl, not to mention running past all the enemies and traps another dozen times because you're backtracking around nearby areas and need to pass through" just doesn't appeal to me.

>>717512057
Having a ton of useless loot for u to collect doesnt make the world building better, it makes it considerably worse, because it sucks to find that. Hollow Knights world design itself is actually pretty fucking terrible, because most chunks of a map all blend together and look the same.

>>717512389
>>717512463
Guess that's just a personal thing then. To me, the sprawling world design which opens up as you gain upgrades is one of my favorite parts of metroidvanias. I had a blast going through and reaching the final ending of ESA on my own when I found out there was one. All the cryptic little hints and exploration it asked of you made the world feel a lot more lived-in and bigger than just the main plot of the game. It's an aspect I'd say is somewhat similar to RPGs where you have a bunch of side quests, though only the meaningful ones that have separate storylines, you're able to do which give more meaning to the world you're in. In Hollow Knight you have areas like these that give access to different charms, nail upgrades, and different endings. Nine Sols also has this to some extent in the interactions Yi can have with everyone at the hub, especially Shuanshuan, to make the hub more lively and unlock access to the true ending through bonding with humanity via him.

Hollow Knight's entire DLC areas are hidden off portions of the world that the player has to stumble upon and activate themself. Grim Troupe being an odd summoning ritual in the mountains and the Hall of Gods being a mysterious locked coffin you stumble upon if you're already being prudent that sits there and nags at you constantly as you try to find meaning in it throughout. Finally, after completing a majority of the rest of the game if you decide to return you'll be greeted by that heap of junk changed into something meaningful, and it transports you towards the area you need to reach the true-true ending. I didn't even know until looking it up now, but an alternative version of that true-true ending you can get by delivering a delicate flower to the Godseeker, and then multiple interactions with it that I hadn't known of either. Maybe it's just fleshing out the story more for those ultra hard to discover secrets, but they feel worthwhile in their existence to expand the world.

>>717497310
Kek

>>717512463
Also there are many individual maps that blend together with others in their respective areas, but each area itself is fairly unique in appearance.

>>717498803
It just has every problem.
Poor progression - you have several routes from any place and all of them are gated necessitated a tedious backtrack to check another route.
The ability you need to get up to a thing is like 2 hours of gameplay later so you feel like you're making no progress and then later you've forgotten all the nooks and crannies you wanted to explore but couldn't
It incorporates the tedious aspects of souls without the fun. No shit people prefer doing the boss challenges more than the game because they don't have negative consequences for trying
Hitstop, screen shake, input lag, bad hitboxes...
Basically nothing in it is a total showstopper, it's just death by a thousand cuts. It's a game that could be trivially fixed by someone with actual talent and taste fixing all the bullshit. And no, that's not code for "make it easier." Make it harder if you want, I don't care, but sadly souls and roguelites have taught far too many people that hard == tedious bullshit and succeeding by dumb luck and perseverance is "skill."

>>717514554
>you have several routes from any place and all of them are gated necessitated a tedious backtrack to check another route.
This is just a flat-out lie. Name one route like this.

>>717514750
And don't say the first route of the game that railroads you into getting the cloak.

>>717497167
It's literally a retard describing animation as if it's a new idea.

Test

>>717499119
SAAR THERE IS TOO MUCH CONTENT SAAR I WANT TO PAY MORE FOR LESS

>>717498902
Just use a map on a second monitor for your first playthrough. It's too easy to get turned around and not know what to do or where to go next without a bit of experience. Once I got a hang of the general layout it became one of my favorites of all time. Beat every boss on Radiant in godhome which is tied for my proudest gaming moment.

>>717498950
It's the worse sin. Time is valuable, so a game that takes less of it than it should will always be better than a game that takes more.

>>717498748
This is true
I loved the game though

>>717513703
See I don't disagree on paper, it all sounds really cool. But in practice it really annoys me, because a distinctive feature of metroidvanias is that the "overworld" and the "levels" are the same thing, so when you're backtracking you have to fight the same enemies and go past the same platforming over and over and over again.
Yeah sure it gets easier as you get more upgrades, but it only gets incrementally easier. Maybe early game areas will feel like a complete non-challenge by endgame, but there's a lot of in-between here where yeah the area might be a little bit easier next time you go through it but not massively so.

The most common argument I've seen against this is
>just walk past the enemies bro you don't have to re-fight everything every time
But if it's so easy to trivialise an area, then why are the enemies there in the first place? This results in a clash where the area should serve as an interesting obstacle to solve and overcome the first time around, but once you do then it basically becomes part of the overworld that you use just to get from point A to point B.

I don't know of a way to solve this, other than just having tons of shortcuts everywhere that you unlock by getting past an area "the hard way", but that feels cheap. Nine Sols avoids the backtracking issue by allowing you to mostly get everything in an area the first time you go through it, which makes the initial exploration very fun and gives a sense of "solving" an area, but I fully agree that as a result it lacks this sense of exploration and wonder as you solve deeper and deeper secrets.

>>717509415
kek

>>717517268
I mean, that's why the stag station and other shortcuts exist, no? More convenient ways of getting from point A to B without compromising the entirety of the gameplay section.
>just walk past the enemies bro you don't have to re-fight everything every time
>if it's so easy to trivialize and area
It's really not easy to trivilialize areas in Hollow Knight until you've become fairly proficient at the game and have a good bit of upgrades, or are just extremely good at it like I've gotten after over 100 hours. Hollow Knight solves this problem I think by making those backtracking sections have more open up to you usually than just a single room with item that was inaccessible before. Lots of these areas actually lead to small puzzle chambers you need to get past before getting the reward for the room. Even when it comes to grub grinding which is probably the most tedious part of the game if you're not already searching rooms for them, there was usually at least a trick to keep the grubs hidden that you didn't realize or have before, and it gets significantly easier to complete this grind after receiving the grub map after beating the collector. But, even with all that said it's not like you absolutely need to collect everything. The game can be beaten in a myriad of ways without ever touching some of the available upgrades. Will it be harder? Yes, but you "can" do that and that's what I think elevates more non-linear world design above linear design from a fun and replayability perspective. With Nine Sols I don't have too much of a desire to really play the game in a different way because there's really only the one way, I'd rather go and do boss rushes. With Hollow Knight I can decide on one playthrough to skip the false knight and never actually do the Soul Master. I can skip from greenpath to the city via a deepnest shortcut and getting the tram pass into the ancient basin that also allows me to skip getting a simple key and get pale ore early.

>>717506423
thanks

>>717518879
Yeah but that's the thing, if the area isn't easy to traverse, then it's just annoying that you can never truly "beat" it. Even the first time you get through it, you're not "completing a level", you're just getting to point B and you might need to get to point B several more times in the future.
The stations are by no means ubiquitous and you still need to traverse quite a bit of the world to get where you want to be usually.

>that's what I think elevates more non-linear world design above linear design from a fun and replayability perspective. With Nine Sols I don't have too much of a desire to really play the game in a different way because there's really only the one way, I'd rather go and do boss rushes.
I don't disagree. And I'm sure that's why HK still has so many more players - its replayability value is clearly just objectively better, both in terms of having more content to 100% it, and also in allowing non-linear ways to beat it. It's just way more annoying as a new player, and it feels tedious to never feel like you've "beaten" an area or level. All the low-level enemies just start feeling like an annoyance when they're difficult to beat, but you know you'll have to get past them again and again so beating them isn't a big achievement.

I do wish 9S had some kind of post-game challenge run system. That alone would make it worth replaying IMO - the main story is not that long if you know where you're going, so having track when you beat it jadeless, or with no health/pipe upgrades, etc. would be cool.

>>717497167
I guess you never ran into Killua. Good for you.

I don't like Dead Cells