Thread 717801506

>no change to the RPG holy trinity ever since it was created
I wonder if this is really a perfect trinity or if one day (even if it's in 200, 300 years) a genius will be able to improve it by adding a 4th role or something like that

The sad fact is people don't WANT it to change
tanks want to sit there and deal/take no damage
healers want to sit there and play whack a mole
dps want to sit there and spam the rotation/priority system they read off a guide website

Guild wars did it and its a fucking mess. Trinity is so much better.

Reminder healer is the best role

City of Heroes did it incredibly well up until they added in i13 with the invention system then it turned everyone into a DPS/tank/healer/control all at the same time.

They should just make it so when healers heal someone they get massive buffs do their damage and if they play properly they do the same damage as a DPS. It would be way more fun.

>>717802069
WoW already did it better. Discipline Priest heals by dealing damage.

>>717801506 (OP)
Elden Ring Nightreign works fine without the trinity

>>717801506 (OP)
I'm that genius. I came up with the perfect 4th role - The Bruiser. Or "The Adventurer" if you want something more gay-sounding.
The bruiser takes care of his own health and his own enemies. He is a self-sustainable combatant that ties enemies up and prevents them from reaching the non-self-sustainable backliners without needing a sissy tank that exists to be a punching bag or a faggy DPS that doesn't FIGHT but merely deals damage. The bruiser can be a brawny warrior, an evasive rogue, an elusive battlemage, and many other things. He may find use in a support-orieniented character, be it a backline ranged party member or a fellow frontliner, but he doesn't LITERALLY NEED them to function and engages in actual proper fighting instead of delegating one man's job to 2-3 people.
This is the patrician's choice that MMO normalfags will never understand due to their inherent cognitive deficiency.

>>717802262
>I need a casual class that is 3x as powerful as other classes
Okay?

>>717801728
Cunt, what are you gonna do?
There's only two things you need to do.
Doing Damage and Not Dying.
Not Dying has been broken up into Take Damage and Heal Damage.
What else is there?
Buffing and Debuffing?
Also known as Improved Doing Damage and Improved Not Dying

>>717802367
>>I need a casual class that is 3x as powerful as other classes
>Okay?

>>717801506 (OP)
Most people don't even want to play two of the three roles in the "holy trinity"

>>717802262
... so a healtank, but overpowered.

>>717801506 (OP)
Easy. Remove tank and healers. Now it is a holy pillar of DPS. Way more fun for everyone.

>>717801506 (OP)
The answer is stop building tank / threat mechanics and instead have bosses that simply “do things”, with support/heal/dps roles. People simply revert to trinity roles because it’s something that everyone knows and can easily understand which means it’s accessible to casuals which means more sales.

>>717801506 (OP)
I can come up with a cool alternative to the trinity but the world is too plebean to accept it.
> Element 1: The Formation
Frontline shield wall maintains the defense against the brunt of the frontal assault.
Optional midline features pikemen that support the shieldwall with additional damage and serve as the last ditch defense against an enemy formation that broke through the shieldwall.
Backline features bowmen, mages, and healers doing their best to support their melee troops from behind them.
>Element 2: The agents
The scout is a lone operative that travels outside and behind enemy lines to perform recon and sabotage enemies whenever possible. Also engages enemy scouts.
The duelist is a lone combatant that takes on high profile targets that exist outside of the enemy formation.

>>717802862
You failed at the very first step of reinventing the holy trinity which is not just suggesting several roles that fit neatly into the existing trinity.

>muh scout
>muh duelist
These are just DPS

>muh frontline shield wall
Tank

>pikemen, bowmen, mages
DPS

This solves the boring nature of the holy trinity and should be used in an MMO. Imagine the boss goes into a burn phase and all the healers swap to DPS. Boss does huge damage? Half the raid swaps to healing for a few seconds

>>717802516
Men familiar with the concept of singleplayer call this archetype "actually playing the fucking game". I know it's a completely alien concept to MMO players because they universally suffer from an autoimmune disease that targets testosterone in their bodies.

>>717802909
>muh scout
>muh duelist
>These are just DPS
See, you and your ilk are irredeemably retarded. There is no hope for you.

You could have a status effect class that does things like slow, stun, paralysis and confuse as well as removing them from your team. They don't deal damage or tank or heal, but are necessary because enemies are too strong without them.

>>717803082
You already have the tank to control the enemies, it doesn't make sense to add a second controller

>>717802103
And yet they still do almost no damage, because if they do too much they're op as healers. I don't know what it's like now healer dps wise, but I remember there was a time that holy did more damage because you actually had to commit to a damage key rather than a healing one. I think it was 9.2. regardless that was the excuse they used.
That said wow does do a good job in letting healers do damage - I just wish we could do closer to 1/3rd of a dps damage instead of this 1/10th of dps bullshit

>>717803134
Why does it inherently make sense for the tank to fulfill this job? The tank in its purest form simply takes damage to mitigate damage dealt to other party members. Modern MMOs have overly complicated it with endless abilities until there is very little class uniqueness.

>>717803082
There's a certain thing one tends to encounter when trying to discuss the topic in the threads of the deranged Holy Tranity posters on this board - whenever you come up with a new role, the Holy Tranity poster will just say "That's already covered by Tank/Healer/DPS".
>Buffer
Healer!
>Debuffer
Healer! Wait, no, Tank! Wait, no, uh, DPS! It depends on what my mood is during Mercury's retrograde!
>Controller/Stunner/Grouper
Tank! Or Healer.
It's hard to spot a consistent pattern in the Holy Tranity poster's argumentation because consistency is for smart people, but if I had to name the most common sentiment - most of the time any non-damaging temporary effect, be it a stun, a debuff, or a buff, is attributed to the healer.

>>717803295
Do you even play these games? The tank controls the enemies, maneuvers them to somewhere convenient, turns them around to the appropriate angles. He is responsible for controlling the enemies.

And in WoW, at least, the more problematic enemies can be CCd by almost any class. But everyone in the party has long cooldowns, so you have to coordinate the cds with others. That's a big part of playing at a high level and if you take this out and dump it in one single party member, you're making the game way less engaging.

Oh and the concept of making a class that deals no damage, does not heal and does not tank has the other visible flaw of: how would they function solo?

>mmo idiots pretending as if their ""roles"" are some fundamental tenet of RPGs
are you for real niggers? it's not that the principles are wrong, but you gotta know absolutely nothing about RPGs to think that damage sponge / just attack lmao / just heal lmao are strictly delineated anywhere beyond mmorpg

>>717803458
I know what it is currently. The discussion is about what it could be. If you stick to what you have been conditioned too then how are you going to come up with something different?

>>717802069
That's how goblin shamans sort of worked in Warhammer age of reckoning. Damage spells increased your next heal, heal spells increased your next damage.

>>717803432
>Mercury's retrograde.
Found the healer boys.

Defender Striker Leader Controller, every class has subroles. As with everything else, 4E got it right.

>>717801506 (OP)
The only thing I could see potentially working is splitting DPS into single target classes and multi target classes, but that's going to end up way too restrictive on class design

>>717803730
*restrictive on fight design

>>717803674
Congratulations, you almost got the joke.

Analyst.
Remove all damage numbers, HP bars, mana bars, and threat. Analysts can only track one thing at a time: friendly stars, enemy stats, enemy weak points, what the enemy is targeting, etc.
Their spells or abilities are call outs like That guy needs healing, shoot his elbow, it's about to attack dummynuts, etc. That way the tank actually needs to intervene, the dps actually have to aim, the healers need to watch the fight.

>>717801506 (OP)
Tank, DPS, Healer and Support as the 4th

The support position can be any class capable of crafting goods to replenish your MP or SP. Make each class rely significantly on these goods to use their skills or spells. Examples Alchemist, Engineer and Dancer

All I really want is a party of nothing but thief girls

>>717801946
How did they do it well before that? What was the system?

>>717801506 (OP)
Fuck the trinity.
Everyone is a jack.

>>717803703
Yeha but since they can't into math or play testing it never worked. HP boost was horrific and damage was way too low all around

Healing is cancer, always has been cancer, and always will be cancer

There's at least 7 types of damage dealers
Buffers and debuffers
Positioners
Summoners
Unique mechanics aren't part of the Trinity are they? What mechanic goes Invisibility go under? Or the ability to neuter your opponent's range?