Thread 718753498

>we're bringing back the RTS genre!
>by listening to the esports community!
Why is this so common?

>We want $$$
Simple as.
It never works.

Esport is slowly killing multiplyer gaming as a whole

>>718753498 (OP)
Esports is the worst thing that has ever happened, most bad things we deal with comes form it.

>>718753498 (OP)
to monetize the shit out of the game with a bunch of tournaments and garbage like that. all monetizing does is suck the fun out of anything.

>>718753625
But esports doesn't make any money

>>718753715
>to monetize the shit out of the game with a bunch of tournaments and garbage like that. all monetizing does is suck the fun out of anything.
I wonder, what other sports people think about it has this ever happened to them, or did they let it happen?

>>718753742
They don't seem to know that.

>>718753742
>But esports doesn't make any money
Sunken cost fallacy.

>focus on le esports
>still unbalanced as shit and broken within a week while classics like sc still haven't been solved

>>718753498 (OP)
because suits see the more successful esports games and want that money for themselves

>>718753498 (OP)
I really can't think of any examples of this other than Stormgate
Doesn't seem common to me at all

Is that from the recent star craft clone? Feels like no matter what rts games are doomed and immediately rejected regardless.

>>718753914
Because they don't know how to make a Comfy™ game.
Single player experience is the most important part of any RTS.
Once you have that you can think about adding multiplayer.
They are simply putting cart before the horse.

>>718754082
people see gooks hitting hot keys at 5000 kpm and think that's everything there is to RTS

The only two good RTS games to have come out in recent years are Starship troopers and Last train home
Neither have multiplayer

>>718753775
It happened to Magic the Gathering, then the players revolted by switching to EDH, then Wizards turned EDH into Commander and it happened again.

It's currently happening to Warhammer 40k. GW is pushing on it hard. Hopefully Horus Heresy 3rd edition flopping will be a wake up call but they'll probably take the wrong lessons.

>>718753498 (OP)
Because those are the only people playing RTS

>>718753715
>to monetize the shit out of the game with a bunch of tournaments and garbage like that
But how does that make them money if no one buys the game?

>>718753498 (OP)
Did they add turn speed to units so positioning matters? Or is it all snappy bullshit?

Because SC2 never hit SC1 levels of popularity due to minor micro decisions having to factor in complexity like terrain height and turn speed. And also because people gave a shit about competitive only because the base game was a lot of fun and the campaign was awesome. SC2 was when Nu-Blizzard dogshit started to sprout up

Playing single player in Starcraft was the best time i ever had with the game. Multiplayer in those games always lead into obsession about winning, which sucks out all the joy. There is a reason why multiplayer is so damn toxic, it's filled with narcissist people that are obsessed about owning a trophy, they don't even care about the game anymore, some seem to even hate the game they play.

Doesn't help that a lot of modern RTS games don't have fun with their factions. Universe at War still gets play from me because of how fun all three factions are.

>>718754846
The only time I ever played an RTS multiplayer game was AoE2, it was a "noob" server and when I lost and the game ended I could see my opponent had already captured like half the map by the time I was in the Castle Age

>>718753498 (OP)
I used to play RTS games as glorified sim games where I'd try to minimize my side's casualties. I fucking hated multiplayer.

>>718753498 (OP)
Vinny vinesauce.
Also they are the only people still playing the genre, same issue arena shooters have.

>we want to make a high skill game with a competitive edge for pros
>but we also want to sell 50 million copies and have a huge fanbase that keeps coming back
companies are greedy and retarded

>>718755095
Age of Empires is one of my favorite game franchise of all time.
Yet, I have never played any of them on-line and I don't see any reason to do it.
I liked to play the campaign, learn about the civilizations while playing. I have even became a "historyfag" after playing the games and I have even visit some historical sites like Stonehenge and The Roman Coliseum.
I don't want to play 2 hours long match only to destroy someone city center or see my city center be destroyed.

>>718753498 (OP)
They're gonna ruin it anyway when youtubers make videos about their build orders, may as well cater to it from the onset

>>718753914
>>718754082
>>718754279
>>718753498 (OP)
Make a good game first.
Multiplayer scene will come naturally, at least it's how it was back then before companies threw billions of dollars to force a multiplayer scene

>>718757538
Arena shooters are kinda inherently multiplayer focused, it'll be hard to make one work in singleplayer.
Singleplayer RTS works through custom scenarios and handmade challenges. The difference between SP and MP RTS is the difference between Serious Sam and Quake, they share the same base, but take it into different directions. And we haven't had a good new singleplayer RTS in a while.

>>718753498 (OP)
RTS out of any games should be the ones where you listen to the esport community.

>>718753498 (OP)
There are a couple of shooters that I won't even mention so that they can stay dead which started pandering to their streamers and "pro" players in the hopes of improving the game or making it more popular, it never fucking works, you have to appeal to the average player, but developers will never learn.

>>718759039
The original arena shooters like Doom amd Quake started out as singleplayer games with full campaigns

>>718758892
I can't imagine people giving that much of a crap about single player rts. I mean, which recent single player rts have you bought? And don't come back with 'le all are shit' reply. The genre needs a shift again.

>>718753742
But it COULD!

>>718761112
The issue is that they aren't making any, the the ones I came think of in recent memory are Starship Troopers, which was decent, and that Terminator one which was based on the shitty reboot that came out like 5 years ago and was made on the men of war engine

>>718759039
>Arena shooters are kinda inherently multiplayer focused, it'll be hard to make one work in singleplayer.
No they aren't, multiplayer was added later to most franchises. Dusk is a good example of a modern arena shooter, and it did add multiplayer later. If the dev had made more sequels they would have probably had a bigger multiplayer focus.

>>718759917
It's more about how they're seen today. Dune 2 was exclusively singleplayer and employed the mirror match 1x1 concept, but it was more due to tech limitations of the time.
Games where the player and the computer play by the exact same rules are rarely that interesting, which is why you change the rules for the computer, or place players against eachother. It's hard to find the common ground.

>>718761293
There is Tempest Rising and Company of Heroes 3. I wouldn't want to be a dev catering to niche titles in this day and age. If you don't come up with a fresh IP and something incredibly new in terms of gameplay, you are fucked. Nobody is going to buy a mediocre entry to a genre, or a title pandering to X without it being stellar.

>>718763083
Both of those are mediocre games and in the case of CoH it just straight up flopped

>>718753498 (OP)
MOBA's peak is now imprinted on every investor's nogging and they want to be next because surely it's gonna come back

>>718753498 (OP)
Because the fags that play PVP RTS (outside of korea) are a very vocal minority and somehow devs still get tricked by it.

Why is it so hard for some people to accept that genres die for a reason?

>>718753671
kek
>hearthstone died an e-sport
>overwatch died an e-sport
>overwatch 2 died an e-sport
>starcraft died an 2-sport
>stacraft 2 died an e-sport
>heroes of the storm died an e-sport
>warcraft 3 reforged died an e-sport
>diablo 4 tried to be an e-sport and nobody showed up
>retail M+ died an e-sport
>retail pvp died an e-sport
>retail raiding died an e-sport

>>718766018
>diablo 4 tried to be an e-sport
what

I can do you one better
>by listening to the speedrunning community!

>>718765848
RTS is more in a hibernating state, where there is an audience for it, but hardly any notable games coming. They Are Billions was fairly popular when it came out, for a singleplayer RTS at least.

>>718766492
I just had a flashback to when a speedrunner was mad that MHWorld could sometimes put you in a random location when going on a hunt and was begging for it to be changed.

>>718766018
>TF2 worst update is the e-sports update(meat your match)

>>718766484
Is videos of it on youtube
>diablo 4 holds e-sport event
>nobody showed up
>dude streaming it starts to kek
>staff ask him to turn off his stream

If they fuck up Dawn of War 4, somebody gonna die...

>>718767174
You won’t do shit

>>718767174
>if
kek

>>718767036
I don't know what they were expecting, especially in korea. You host stuff like that at blizzcon where people go to it just because it's there.

>>718753498 (OP)
It is almost as common as playing Mario games on a Sunday

>>718753498 (OP)
>>we're bringing back the RTS genre!
>>by listening to the esports community!

Because Starcraft is the shining crown of RTS and they basically elevated the esports community to that height it is now.

>>718765848
Why did it die?

>>718753914
>asians are apex predators

>>718767036
What are they even competing for? Isn't it a co-op RPG?

>>718753498 (OP)
Starcraft ruined RTS, it warped the perception of the entire genre so now no one even knows how to make a standard non-esports hyper competitive gookclick fest anymore. RTS as a standard entertainment product is lost knowledge.

>>718769147
they basically tried to make D4 dungeons solo retail M+ dungeons for a time

>>718769316
Can you repeat that in employed language, please?

>whether you like it or not game designer, producers, marketing teams,companies, publishers, suits will do market research
>esports, mpfags and compfags are the only people who are actually playing RTS
>'tarded devs/publisher fall into the trap that if they copy SC II they will sell jewllions
>[guess what happens next]

It's all too simple and everything else is cope, but you guys (especially filtered SPtards) are too dumb to understand. And ironicaly it all boils down to /v/ not playing video games

>>718753498 (OP)
For me, it's Ninomae Ina'nis

>>718753498 (OP)
Are you telling me that the only good way to make an RTS is to have some guy whose played two matches for Starcraft in his entire life to make one from scratch?
I'll get right on it bros, I'll do you right.

Where are the modern Star Wars Empire at War, Star Trek Armada, and Homeworld style RTSs?
Why must everything be hyperautism 4XXL time wasting bullshit or million click per second compfaggotry?
There is plenty of room in-between.

>>718767174
I can already see people finding excuses to not give it a shot and shit on it tirelessly. SP fags won't play it.

>>718770058
You had your new Homeworld game.
Everypony hated it.

Remember when the multiplayer mode in an RTS was NOT the primary feature of it?

>>718770058
there is, it's called aoe2

>>718770058
I fucked off to tower defense. Any new turtling RTS coming out that you can play with friends?

>>718766018
It is all Blizzard fault.
They tried, many times, make an e-sport before making a game.

>>718770180
>Everypony hated it.
Maybe because almost every aspect of the game was fucked to one extent or another?
>>718770192
>aoe2
>modern
lul

>>718766682
>is still fun despite being raped by e-sports and compniggers, just not as fun as it used to be
how did volvo do it?

>>718770354
>in our life time we will get a documentary about how a single game mode made in the warcraft 3 was lost to another company and completely buck broke one of the biggest gaming studios of our time

>>718770695
How do you even let that happen? Did Blizzard just not see the potential while Valve did?

>>718771134
blizzard were riding their high with wow and starcraft at the time
maybe it was just a legal oversight and everyone just assumed that blizzard owned right to all custom maps

>>718771339
Did they try to sue?

just include a fucking world editor and allow people to host them in game. it's that easy

>>718773036
they did, but i think it was settle out of court
iirc that's why dota 2 is all caps

>>718753914
>Feels like no matter what rts games are doomed and immediately rejected regardless.
They are Billions and Against the Storm did very well for themselves. They made the mistake of trying to innovate a little bit instead of chasing esports, though. So you should never emulate them.

>>718773036
They tried legal headbutting with Valve but had no ground to stand on and lost. This is also why they later changed EULA of all their editors so that everything made in them belongs to Blizz.

>>718773036
No because there was no precedent
No one expected these maps to grow into their own games, and those who did, did it fairly early (dota, element td, legion td)
Nowadays blizzard updated their eula for starcraft and warcraft world editors so that they own all maps made in them, but it came too late. Can't retroactively sue them now

>>718753498 (OP)
Because they want to monetize it, anon. And people who want campaigns seem to have found their fix elsewhere.

Trying to turn video games into a sport is retarded

>>718754470
People who are speedrunning bankruptcy unironically think that despite all the evidence against it. How can we reach them and make them see reality?

>>718770183
I dont remember 80s

Just play AoE 2 (not the remaster since it's absolutely soulless)

>>718753498 (OP)
can't sell em on consoles aka no rts will ever get a big enough budget because industry knows they'll never get the AAA returns

Ster doesnt target Vinny he targets everyone and anyone. He will call Jerma playing D4 with a controller the reason D4 sucks, and he will make jokes about Vinny's awkwardness.
Vinny just doesnt know how to bant, and it's probably his chranny chat's fault for being sensitive babies.

>>718768184
>>718769157
Starcraft devs at least knew that more than 80% of their customers never gave a single fuck about multiplayer.

>>718753498 (OP)
because you know whats important? making your games marketable. why? because being marketable makes you money. making money should be first and foremost. making good money is far more important than making good games. do you understand now?

>>718769583
If those people and their magical marketing research were so smart, they'd figure out that they are wrong. Your shit only makes sense in a reality where "we will be the next e-sports" wasn't a guarantee for a gigantic flop.

>>718753498 (OP)
If you want to bring back the RTS genre you listen to the UMS community.
God I miss it..

>>718770183
Yeah, the golden age of RTS where it was one of the dominant genres. Strange.

Because you aren't buying the ones focused on singleplayer content either.
Did you buy Last Train Home? Starship Troopers? Tempest Rising? Call to Arms?
>"B-But they suck! I never played them but they're not Warcraft 3 or Homeworld 2 so I'm gonna complain about a madeup boogeyman on the internet instead!
Kill yourself nigger.

>>718774002
Why am I being forced to choose between two things that were a package deal back in the day?

>>718774339
You don't. Except for last train home all those games also have multiplayer.

>>718753498 (OP)
Because there's been no new blood in RTS for decades now. The only people keeping the genre relevant is esports.
So it's a perverse feedback loop.

>>718773535
is good pathfinding actually what killed rts?
without it, microing wouldn't be such cancer

>>718774527
Why is a higher skill ceiling bad?

>>718774527
It's more because micro and high APM is simply the inevitable end point of gameplay optimization. Only solution would be to give some sort of autonomy to your units where you give general directions and they sort it out themselves.

>>718753498 (OP)
The older I get, the more I realize the only people who care about e-sport are failed losers or literal children.

>>718766018
But all of these died because they tried to be casual retard games, not real e-sports. Having pubstomping in overwatch would not have saved the game

>>718774527
More like units being too responsive and too fast. For example in Warcraft 2 there's a certain clumsiness to unit control that you need to get used to, and effectively using catapults mid battle takes some dexterity, but it's nowhere near as frantic as most modern RTS.

>>718775052
i fucking despise starcraft 2's instant turn rate and "weightless" movement

>>718753914
Retard

>>718753498 (OP)
You can't kill something that is alredy dead.

What are some good beginner friendly RTS? I don't mind if it gets a bit complex later, just a decently understandable tutorial and early game.

>>718753914
>Feels like no matter what rts games are doomed and immediately rejected regardless.
The funny thing with RTS or any game is that if you copy someone else, you better provide a more polished game or you are doa. Stormgate is a SC 2 clone but with worse polish, so dead on arrival.

>>718775132
>4:3

>>718753671
Youtube guides and cancerous min maxing really ruined multiplayer. I don't understand the mindset at all. Why bother playing at all?

>>718770695
>Remembers how those videos about all the senior devs of blizzard saying if they could go back in time they would give Ice frog all the resources he wanted and more for Dota
>They also lost the MOBA battle against LoL
Kek this is what happens when you get too uppity, serves them right and I bet Ice frog was laughing in their face

>>718773421
is against the storm not a city builder
it was when i played

>>718775276
I'd recommend age of mythology myself, can't remember off the top of my head if it has a tutorial but the campaign will teach you what you need to know. Basic gameplay is simple, pump out workers, have them collect food for more workers and additional resources for buildings/soldiers.

>>718773434
>>718773516
Based Blizzard owns my map

>>718770058
>Homeworld style RTSs?
please
do you have to remind me
haven't i suffered enough

Ashes of the Singularity is fun and they just announced a sequel.

Is Tempest Rising good?

>>718773535
god this image is STILL outdated

>>718775028
>all of these died because they tried to be casual retard games

>>718770642
Actual underlying game wasn't changed at any point

Additionally they ended up undermining and destroying their own token attempt at making the game an e-sport by forcing the game to crank your graphics settings to max before actually joining the server, whether your graphics settings are max already or not. This means the server join process is enormously unstable and most people crash before they can even get into a competitive matchmaking game, so competitive matchmaking was stillborn and everybody went off into casual which is the Valve-officiated version of a 24/7 2fort or Hightower server

i think i just like the idea of rts more than playing them
i'm too slow to play them
they need half-real time strategy to let slomos like me play. they need rtswp.

>>718758892
The problem is that games cost too much money to make, so they can't just put out a game and see if it takes off. They have to have a plan to exploit specific markets and demographics and focus the game as hard as possible on that on order to make back as much money as possible and turn a profit. The days of a single player game with tacked on multiplayer that just happens to gain popularity and traction over the course of months or years are long, long gone.

>>718775132
Look at the actual picture you monkey. The rabbit has a much smaller focused field of vision. How do you grass eating retards not understand the shit you're posting yourself?

>>718759039
>Arena shooters are kinda inherently multiplayer focused, it'll be hard to make one work in singleplayer.
Zoomers are so hilariously ignorant of the past.

>>718775807
Paradox games.
Distant worlds.

>>718775525
I guess that depends on if you think the Settlers are an RTS or not.

>>718769540
They tried to do a solo dungeon version of WoW's competitive dungeon mode that they also have an esports event for.

>>718775909
i think i was waiting for them to fix distant worlds 2 or something and just forgot about it (unless i'm thinking of something else). did they ever improve it?

>>718775690
Tempest Rising is essentially C&C3 without C&C. Not bad per se, just kinda bland and mediocre overall. Decent if you're itching for a C&C clone.

nobody cares about rts in 2025 except esports and comp faggots. you will never lure casual gamers back into being interested in rts again

>>718773535
> i want to play the classics
nigger almost every single thing on this chart is a classic
the most hilarious shit though is that whoever made that he put D2 in the classics, AND THEN D2000 even though it's literally a c&c with different sprites, while having the audacity to not put c&c, sc:bw, wc3 or aoe2 there aswell.
and where the FUCK is Warzone2100, Earth 2150, Armies of Exigo, Z, 7th Legion, Tzar, Original War? You know what this chart is, it's a fucking disgrace, that's what it is.

>>718759039
>Arena shooters are kinda inherently multiplayer focused, it'll be hard to make one work in singleplayer.
wut. arena shooters only find success now as singleplayer games.

>>718776302
Arena shooters as we know them are pretty much Team Fortress 2 and all the older prior games still kicking around, companies are terrified of making arena shooters because that implies a server browser and THAT implies no matchmaking as default/no real company-publisher control over The Experience™

>>718775747
Has anyone new really come out since?

>>718773535
terribly designed chart + looks like it's at least a decade old

>>718776561
quite a few
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_real-time_strategy_video_games

>>718776293
couple of exceptions notwithstanding like you said it's really classics or well known titles. shocked to see cossacks, though.

>>718753498 (OP)
>by listening to the esports community!
Literally the worst thing you can do. lmao those retards are dumber than a brick

>>718776725
>Grey Goo came out a decade ago
JESUS

>>718775838
You don't understand what "focus " means. Probably you are female

One of the more popular RTS games in the past half decade didn't have multiplayer at all, and in fact relied heavily on asymmetrical "factions" that could never work in multiplayer.
I don't get why more devs didn't take notice.

>>718776730
>shocked to see cossacks, though.
why? i knew people who comp played it, cossacks 3 i think? had some lengthy convos about it's supposed superiority over brood war

>>718776796
where the fuck has the time gone..

>>718776991
isnt this just a tower defense game? and what other factions are there besides humans and zombies

>>718776991
New RTS need to focus on COOP. Any pvp action is a death sentence that will be rejected by the majority today. People simply have no time, energy, or the willpower to train day in and out against sweat lords and what not, only to get steam rolled again by a smurf account.

>>718777083
It's more of the natural evolution of singleplayer enjoyers really liking turtling because it's an RTS, but most of the time you're building towers and improving your base. And yeah it's just humans and zombies.

Sometimes I wonder how Blizzard would do Dota if back in the day they accepted the offer
Then I remember Heroes of the Storm was their answer to LoL/Dota and good thing they didn't

>>718777316
Thank Allah valve got dota instead

has anyone played Sins of a Solar Empire 2? is it good? i liked the first one, but that was a long time ago.

>>718768015
I think what annoys me the most about this is that he isn't even GOOD at said mario games.

>>718753498 (OP)
Most new developers are hardcore rts gamers, so they like competitive, but they're too stupid to know most revenue for developers comes from single player or co-op content.

>>718777139
>focus on
no
>have
sure

>>718769157
>RTS as a standard entertainment product is lost knowledge.

True. Developers need to learn how to make the campaigns cinematic and great RPG experiences in RTS format for one.

>>718773806
But bad games flop.