Thread 719706442

>now metroidvanias will replace rogulikes in gaming trends
feelsgoodman, I am tired of seeing that fuckass map from slay the spire and choosing between three things

>>719706442 (OP)
hollow knight and dread had good boss fights
both had bland music though

nigger pee pee poop log

So anyway in my virtual environment I had trouble deploying because react scripts version stayed at 0.0.0. I finally managed to fix with the AI chatbot.

>>719706442 (OP)
I think you mean Hollowlikes. Get that tendie trash out of here

>>719707548
>Hollowlikes
You mean metroid-likes get your 2d miniclip game trash out of here and show some respect. Add also smash-clones to the mix and mario kart-likes

>>719706442 (OP)
They will not as they require way more effort to make than procedurally generated rougeshite.

nobody but discord trannies are going to buy silksong by the way. it's not actually a cultural phenomenon.

wow Contra games are still around? wtf

>>719706442 (OP)
Playing every Castlevania Metroidvania game will teach you just how easy and repetitive the metroidvania formula can get, having an oversaturated market of metroidvania will literally kill the genre for you. Metroidvania's are wonderful when they have strong presentation, unique gameplay systems and mechanics, and engaging worlds/stories. Most game devs are incapable of achieving this.

>>719706442 (OP)
I have never played a metroidvania or roguelike before, did I miss out on anything?

>>719706442 (OP)
Dread was utter ass compared to super and fusion.

>>719709358
For Roguelikes? Not really.

For Metroidvanias? Some of them have fantastic music, amazing world design, extraordinary gameplay progression systems, strong boss fights, compelling movement/combat/platforming, and in rarer cases, wonderful stories.

>>719709189
I'm sorry you had to postpone the release of your dogshit indie game, anon.

>>719706442 (OP)
I am also okay with this. Love me some splorin'.

But for the love of god, PLEASE have them lean more Metroid than vania. I'm so sick of all the Dark Souls combat. If I wan number to go up, I will play an RPG.

>>719706442 (OP)
>now

>>719709458
good try but i actually just started writing it last week
i'm just trying to give the marketing teams here a little reality check so they arent surprised when they get sacked later this year

>>719709468
As >>719709335 stated, you're giving way too much faith and hope in the average game dev and their fans. Why would a game developer experiment with new kinds of powers, abilities, etc. that they have to balance, playtest, etc. and might not even be enjoyed by most players, when they can just do something that's tried and true like Hollow Knight did?

>>719709468
having your abilities be nothing more than keys is what made dread such a bad game. You NEVER get more powerful even when you get a 100% collection rate.

>>719709335
La Mulana isn't so much inspired by metroid or castlevania and is instead an esoteric and masochistic puzzle game that fights you the entire way.
Loved it but good God doing it without help or a walkthrough is pure brain agony.

Im just glad shooterslop is dead

>>719706442 (OP)
dude were you under a rock all this time?

Roguetrannielikes will still be made en masse because it's lazy and easy money

>>719706442 (OP)
Most indie metroidvanias/metroid-clones are so forgettable I can't even summon the effort to play them past the demo.

>>719709468
No.

>>719706442 (OP)
>now
Nigga it has been this way for the past 5 years or so. Every single indie is a 2d metroidvania and one of the reasons I'm not that hyped for silksong.

I played too many man

>>719706442 (OP)
>Dog shit will now be replaced by horse shit.

>>719707976
why do people get so mad at this it's unironically a succinct way to describe a game like The Witness

>>719706442 (OP)
it really is a great genre

feels good man

Nah, Hollowlikes are too complicated to mass produce. They have to be designed and shieeet, instead of cobbled together from randomized assets.

>>719720674
HK doesn't have much design to it tho.

>>719706442 (OP)
I wanna see what suitless metroid suit Samus looks like

>>719706442 (OP)
>>now metroidvanias will replace rogulikes in gaming trends
I fucking WISH, Roguelikes are popular because you don't need a narrative, decent level design, or good balancing. Just crutch on arenas/procedural gen, lore bits, and RNG. Metroidvanias need at least good level design and narrative.

>>719706442 (OP)
As a guy that plays a LOT of metroidvanias I hope this doesn't happen. Most of them are complete garbage and if there becomes a glut of them it will be harder to find the scant few gems that are made by people who love and understand the genre instead of the trendhopping shitters looking for a quick buck.

>>719725303
You WILL play Grime 3 through 8.

>>719723234
She still looks like the awkward creature she is.

>>719726725
SAVED

>>719706442 (OP)
Good. Far superior genre

>>719710353
>La Mulana isn't so much inspired by metroid or castlevania
I don't know why you'd say something so confidently without googling it, Naramura's not a very secretive guy.

>>719709358
the only ones worth playing are from the metroid and castlevania series
indies are all chasing the dragon and don't come close

>>719706442 (OP)
History is healing

>>719709358
>>719709452
I got to mention this, roguelike metroidvania.

Basically a super metroid randomizer.
Bosses are randomized, powers are randomized. Sometimes different powers appear. One run you might get the double jump, the next you might get a jetpack or rush coil.

Only thing i dont like is the meaty artstyle. Its a major turnoff in an otherwise perfect game.

>>719706442 (OP)
>metroidvania
its just platformer.
>rogulikes
it's just rpg
Why do trannies keep making up nonsense words?

>>719726725
Sex

>>719706442 (OP)
Metroidvania is kind of the culmination of classic game design. You can merge platformer with adventure game with RPG. I’d love to see some more 3D ones.

>>719706442 (OP)
Metroidvanias are the hot new genre and I love to see it because I really like metroidvanias.

>>719734057
>what is a subgenre
Go back to your shartyhole.

>>719709042
unc hollow knight reinvented the genre, we need to change the name of the genre frfr no cap

>>719726725
I want to gen porn of this pregnant

>>719706442 (OP)
Not much better than what we had now but I'll take it.
Also, nice filename, faggot.

>>719733337
Looks interesting anon. Cool. Thanks for the rec

>>719734057
>rpg means numbers go up
Why do trannies keep making shit up

>>719706442 (OP)
lol no, gaymers don't want a "resurgence" of metroidvanias (not like the genre is dead or anything theres one new every month), fags will play Silksong and then wait another 10 years for hollow knight 3 because no other game in the genre exists apparently.

>>719734057
holy shit you people are insufferable

>>719709468
>Dark Souls combat
You mean Castlevania combat?

>>719706442 (OP)
Apart from Animal Well there hasn't been a good game in the search-action genre in decades.

It's a waste of fucking time.

And btw - castlevania brought nothing to the genre so calling it metroidVANIA is stupid and pointless. Everything SOTN did was already done by the likes of wonderboy 3 and faxanadu almost a decade earlier.

>>719744003
castlevania games wish they had combat as good and fluid as in hollow shart

>>719709335
What the fuck is wrong with La-Mulana 2's optimization? The first one ran fine on my machine with no lag whatsoever, but the sequel is literally making it overheat and slow down.

>>719743950
>replying to bots
Fuck off retard

i hope that the sequel to picrel is good

>>719709358
>Roguelikes
Assuming you mean roguelites, you're mostly missing out on a deeper understanding of the indie vidya landscape. Vampire Survivors in particular is like the terminal cancer equivalent of indie games. You should play it.

>>719745660
and once you play vampire survivors, play holocure and then halls of torment, then picayune

>>719706442 (OP)
That already happened for a bit, there's a fuckton of shitty Metroidvanias that are completely ripping off Hollow Knight's visual style (why? it's the worst thing about it).

>>719745803
What a waste of time, and that's coming from someone who played a lot of VS and HoT.
At the end of the day, you're just moving your character until you get strong enough and you don't need to move anymore. You need so many runs to unlock everything, with 30mn per maps...

>>719706442 (OP)
>Now
There's a new out each week. There's a new metroidvania roguelike out every other week. Indie shit faggots can't stop milking either

>>719706442 (OP)
There's always been plenty of metroidvanias

>>719746121
How could the HK babies know? They only played this game in this genre.

>>719710236
>You NEVER get more powerful even when you get a 100% collection rate.
Go load up a new file then load up a completed file and tell me you don't feel more powerful. Screw Attack alone is a huge upgrade

>>719744670
La-mulana 1 is ran on an original engine coded in something basic.
La-mulana 2 is on unity which is Indian bloatware.

>>719707976
>Intelligent Dance Music

>>719746035
they're fun games imo. it's like a slot machine

>>719745872
what are a few? I would love to play them

>>719746035
>You need so many runs to unlock everything, with 30mn per maps
you're retarded if you don't play at double speed

>>719709335
fuck this game, seriously. i have no idea how anyone could ever get through this shit without a walk through. the puzzles require a level of insane obsession and autism that is unhealthy.

>>719747645
This. I'm even a puzzlefag.
Yes to meta
No to obsurity

>>719706442 (OP)
One can fucking hope

>>719707976
Yeah this faggy term sucks, I do like the games it describes though

>>719717267
>describe a game like The Witness
>not Tunic, Outer Wilds or Animal Well
The Witness should be excluded, it's barely a game more like a fancy puzzle book.

>>719726465
Grime just didn't hit for me. It is so ugly and jewy.

>>719706442 (OP)
>now metroidvanias will replace rogulikes in gaming trends
They have been since the original Hollow Knight. We get like 7 or 8 a year since then from indies. Where the fuck have you been?

>>719734057
>its just platformer.
what nigga? If I was looking for something like Super Meat Boy and you gave me something like Prince of Persia: The Lost Crown, I'd be pissed at your suggestion and vice versa despite them both being based games.

>>719709358
For real roguelikes: Rift Wizard, Tales of Maj'Eyal, Nethack, Angband, Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup, DoomRL, and EraRL are all amazing.

For roguelites: Slay the Spire, Monster Train, and Erranorth are the best turn-based deckbuilders, One Step from Eden is the best realtime deckbuilder, Holocure is the best "bullet heaven", and Wizard of Legend is the best otherwise.

>>719709468
For me Metroid is not about the Zelda-like progression, but about the unmarked secrets.
Gotta level up your gamer senses!

>Placing slop next to Metroid
Fuck off

>>719747540
There's Aestik, which is weird in that it's a "choices matter" type game where you're expected to play through multiple times with different events.
https://store.steampowered.com/app/2199330/Aestik/

Some others of varying quality.
https://store.steampowered.com/app/2620730/DEVIATOR/
https://store.steampowered.com/app/1199370/Gleamlight/
https://store.steampowered.com/app/2014550/Voidwrought/

And upcoming:
https://store.steampowered.com/app/1235470/Lotus_Knight/
https://store.steampowered.com/app/1614330/Crowsworn/
https://store.steampowered.com/app/2395770/Never_Grave_The_Witch_and_The_Curse/
https://store.steampowered.com/app/2625450/Phosfi/

>>719754020
Unmarked secrets: Room type.
Metroid 1 introduced Unmarked secrets on the Critical path.
To lower the mental burden on the player, secrets are mostly present in a few room patterns that are re-used trough the game, meaning that when you discover one of the hidden tile, you discover it for every place that uses that room (as long as you recognise the room type).

>>719747645
>>719749701
The most important clue you will never get from the game is: Japanese has no plurals.

>>719754449
never grave looks neat

>>719754648
Marked secret: weird texture
Metroid 2 Return of Samus has less repeated rooms, but still use that concept for secrets. One example is the Chozo statue which always has a bottom tunnel.
It also introduced "weird tiles" to hint for secret passages. Probably due to its limited graphical capabilities, those are pretty bad and are used sparingly, mostly at the beginning of the game to teach the player to look for pass-trough walls.

>>719706442 (OP)
There's already a lot of classic 2d metroidvanias on steam througheverbeit. It's gotta be one of the most popular genres after the usual Slay the Spire and Vampire Survivors slop.

>>719755124
Unmarked secret: Level design Pattern recognition
But it's main contribution is the usage of specific repeated patterns used in different contexts.
Picture for example: a dead-end with a certain white block texture.
This is not stricly "putting a secret in a negative space design" that is successfully used in a lot of modern games, because Metroid 2 has a lot of useless dead-end and a lot of unused negative space.
This counts on the player learning the patterns he encouters and recognise them even if not explicitly taught.
This is still widely used in Nintendo games. Wall after a pipe? hidden block in Mario. Nine bushes? Hidden entrance in Zelda.

>>719710236
You’re truly retarded, my god

>>719744105
>le reddit arg game
Low iq posturing

>>719755543
Semi-marked secret: ambiguous tiling
Thanks to its improved graphical possibilities, Super Metroid pushed a lot the serie's secret design, by incorporating more natural-looking breakable elements. Due to the variety of the tiles, it could also hint at a secret without being as explicit as >>719755124 old games. By making and breaking patterns in the walls, they could also put red herrings. This pushes the player to check everything suspicious and make a mental model of the developer's habits.
Once you know how the dev designs, a form of communication happens, a discussion where sometimes the developer starts a sentence (places a hint) and the player finishes it (finds the secret on the first try without testing every wall).

>>719756172
This was also the game that introduced X-ray vision, which for me was slightly a detriment to secret design as the Dev could possibly count on that as a crutch to design complicated patterns that do not rely on the player's investigative abilities to find. Thanksfully I think the devs limited the amount of "mean" secrets and the game is playable without over-using the X-ray, which also felt burdensome to use (slow aim, stops you in your tracks).

Also not recorded but Super Metroid has one short loop section that you cannot escape without finding a secret wall to pass trough, that is unmarked and doesn't show on X-ray. The idea is that since you are emprissoned in a closed limited space, you will eventually find the right wall to exit trough. This design technique will be expanded upon and improved in Fusion.

>>719756518
Unmarked secret: locked-room mystery
When thinking about secret design in Metroid Fusion, one quote from Sherlock Holmes comes to mind:
>“Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth.”
Fusion probably has the most unmarked secrets on the critical path compared to every other Metroid game. This is because Fusion switched to a more linear, controlled environment, which allowed the developers to be a lot more deliberate in their secret design, as the players HAD to find them to progress.
Yet no needle in haystack issue: everytime you need to find an unmarked secret, you are usually confined to a few couple rooms, limiting your options. Sometimes locking you to less than a room's space.
This is sometimes taken to an extreme. Please take a loot (or not) to "the Completionist" getting stuck in a 12-tiles wide alcove for 5 full minutes.
https://youtu.be/lYgqs3f47GE?list=PLm8aFRzVGLtQi6yT3GISqqhgGFwWL5vP6&t=1376

>>719757878
This one is the epitome of "locked-room secret" to me. Even using smart-bombs to clear all tiles, it just looks impossible. And yet when you find the solution, it is simple, the only possible solution given the game mechanics really.
Truly a "designer"s secret.

>>719758182
[sleepy so less structured rant]
Unprepared minds might find this aggravating: why do I have to GUESS what the developer wants from me in order to PROGRESS in the game? Why are those secrets not relegated to side-quests and optional treasures, like it is done for most non-Metroid games (Metroidvanias)?

To me that played it during my formative years, Metroid is a series that teaches you all those things. It teaches you to experiment and explore. It teaches you to be rigorous in your testing. It teaches you pattern recognition. This is just Gamer Sense training.
There is no guesswork, just the inevitability of discovery.

And while Fusion is infamous for having some stumpers on the critical path, I never thought it as a detriment to the game.

>>719758672
And I find that Fusion is the only one where I could find humor in secret design. Instead of bombing your way trough a wall down, there's a column that appears that sends you up. Instead of going the obvious way trough a suspicious tiled wall, it's actually the floor that gives in. Those kind of things are a suversion of that I said here >>719756172 of what I called the conversation between the dev and the player.
Secrets feel like a personnal attack, a personnal link to a specific developer's mindset.

To me Fusion has the best secret design of the series for those reasons. The (currently final) form of the evolution of secret design in the Metroid series.

>>719758672
this one certainly stuck in my craw at the time, but i do see your point now after having played NEStroid.
I can appreciate this approach now, and it's pretty common in puzzle games, but it's not really my favorite approach.
If there's going to be a roadblock somewhere, i'd rather it be frontloaded so that you know what to expect. Treasure never made a metroidvania, but they were the masters of this approach, entirely to the detriment of their wallets.

>>719709335
>game forces you to use a walkthrough to even play it
this shit and myst are pure cancer
DURR GO WHERE THE DEV WANTS YOU TO GO AND DO WHAT THE DEV WANTS YOU TO DO. OH WHATS THAT? YOU'RE NOT THE DEV SO YOU DON'T AUTOMATICALLY KNOW THE ANSWER? WELL TOOOOOOO BAD

>>719758973
Closing thoughts:
I don't have much to say about Metroid Zero Mission's secret design. On casual playtrough I didn't notice anything special about it. But I saw a video explaining that for Speedrunners and Sequence-breakers, there are tons of hidden paths that zig-zag trough the map.
Maybe if I played it more I would come to appreciate it more and see the design philosophy behind it, but to me it feels a little bit like wasted design if most players won't even encounter it. Makes it more valuable by rarity principles I guess.
Lava callback to original Metroid was funny.

Metroid Dread didn't have deep secrets because of the scanner thing, and a different philosophy (map traversal is dynamic, player is rarely stuck). I was a bit sad at the beginning but different concept still lead to an enjoyable game.

Samus Returns... I didn't enjoy the game so I didn't spend much time exploring for secrets.

>>719759040
I can understand, as any roadblock that you can't solve can lead to taking a long break that might never end. At least with puzzles you can go look at a solution, but if it's your executive functions that are lacking... well, everything's always easier after a good night of rest.

That said good night.

>>719706442 (OP)
Hello, Castlevania bros? Can we get the Dread treatment?

>>719747108
>>719707976
I love both of these...

>>719706442 (OP)
What are some shameless complete Metroid ripoffs / clones? I liked Axiom Verge but hated ESA

>>719760004
man i just realized, togashi really can't come up with original ideas, can he

>>719759040
god alien soldier fucking rules, i love that game

>>719759890
I forgot, Dread DOES have a pretty well-known Unmarked-Secret-on-the-Critical-Path, it even has a fan-name: the Jaffe Room ! named after David Jaffe (you probably saw him mocked for his gaming capabilities). I don't know if this has reached the Pigeon VS game journalist level of infamy, but here it is:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4OZqmWB0wXo

The design logic is similar to Fusion/Super where the player is restricted to a limited amount of rooms (because Dread is very good at hiding when it closes paths). +enemies and room shape to incentivise you to shoot where the path opens

>>719761267
every game NAMI touched is pure impenetrable gold, and every game treasure made is amazing.

>>719759598
You're genuinely retarded if you think Myst is difficult.

>>719761304
The initial video which highlights the room design itself: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7noxyKs4mc8

>>719758973
it's easy to forget that this site has some smart people on it sometimes, great writeup

>>719706442 (OP)
This era will never end. It will reemerge as soon as Supergiant is out of Early Access.

>>719706442 (OP)
Every other indie is already a hollowvania, what are you talking about? Indie love them because it allows them to pad out the game time with constant backtracking.

>>719706442 (OP)
This is a brave new era boys

>>719744152
>>719744003
>zoomer faggoid negros fail to understand Castlevania combat
No dumbfucks Castlevania has combat exponentially better than Hollow knight could ever dream of
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/XRzOR38R_-Y

>>719761304
Seeing him unravel his own argument yet having too fragile of an ego to acknowledge it is so funny

i need more combination of metroidvanias and rougelike like dead cells