Thread 720267810

Are modern RPGs too easy?

This image means nothing without the context of knowing what kind of bullshit you can fire back with or what defenses or recovery abilities you can have.

>>720267810 (OP)
modern RPGs are just VNs and movies with some incredibly dumbed down combat sections sprinkled in

In Wizardry the party has plenty of instakill bullshit of their own to counter late game enemies.

>>720269015
in this situation, where the monsters have the first turn, it's over.

>>720267810 (OP)
Modern RPGs are more challenging.
Old Wizardry is literally random chance of your party getting their instant win moves off before the enemies can act.

>>720268030
>Defenses
He's already cast a shield spell reducing his parties AC by 2. That's it.
>Recovery Abilities
In Wizardry 1? Lol. Let's see he can either try running away and hope it works or he can waste turns casting really inefective healing spells
>Bullshit you can fire back with
Well yeah his mages would be insanely high level at this point and capable of casting super powerful area of effect attacks - enough to decimate at least 2 groups of monsters in a single round. Problem is the monsters have ambushed the party and so they get a full round where you can do nothing to defend yourself so you better hope and pray your mages don't get killed before you can even do anything. Although most likely the whole party's gonna get wiped before you even have a chance to do anything. Oh, and did I mention Wizardry 1 has perma-death and autosaving mechanics?

It's a great game, I'd honestly recommend it.

>>720267810 (OP)
I wonder if anyone ever legitimately played through 2 with that original party from 1. These games were made just to kill you

>>720269105
Depends on which version you're playing. In the original Apple II version both you and monsters could use magic in surprise rounds which was awesome when it worked in your favor, complete bullshit and 9 times out of 10 a death sentence if it didn't. The sequels and later ports of Wizardry 1 changed it so neither side could use magic in surprise rounds which made it WAY less of a death sentence. Still don't think OP's gonna make it though, just really bad luck

Wizardry basically boils down on who can one-shot each other first so it makes sense the enemies are scaled to that level of tuning.

yeah they are made for retards but those old games were bs in their own way requiring lots of trial and error to master

>>720267810 (OP)
>Niggas in a row menu navigation simulator
>Difficult
The example of an actually difficult turn-based game is Into The Breach, especially on higher difficulty settings. You have to use brain in it. This shit is not demanding towards player's brain, it's just incredibly time-wasting and requiring meta-knowledge.
Difficult turn-based games remand actual brains from a dev to design, so overwhelming majority of "difficulty" there is a latter. Pathfinder rpgs are also extremely "difficult" on highest difficulty settings, but if you know the correct solutions to encounters, they consist of you walking around, pre-buffing a lot and pressing the I WIN button when the fight starts.

>>720267810 (OP)
That's just retarded.

>>720267810 (OP)
>dice rolling difficulty
no thanks

>>720270014
Wizardry isn't a JRPG (niggas in a row simulator) though. It's what inspired JRPGs and what they were initially ripping off but it's an old school CRPG and genuinely difficult at points

>>720269425
What version do you recommend?

Nigger game lmao

>>720270014
>The example of an actually difficult turn-based game is Into The Breach
lmao

>>720267810 (OP)
Pretty sure anons already agreed Wizardy 1 had bad game design and there are several caps floating around describing 'super hard' parts where player could get fucked no matter what he done.
Pure RNG fucking player over is neither fun nor good game design.
>>720269425
>It's a great game, I'd honestly recommend it.
Retard.

>>720269836
I recently played the remake and you can turn magic on ambushes back on, as well as disable most of the QoL features not in the original game.

>>720267810 (OP)
Yes. Modern devs are afraid of putting in "bullshit" mechanics like this into the game unless it is specifically a small scale rougelike type game.

>>720270139
How? They're illiterate, and correcting people on their spelling and grammar has been deemed to be racist.

>>720267810 (OP)
I beat this on my phone earlier this year.
Git gud.

>>720270108
This one. Or the recent steam port, I guess, if you want easy modo.

>>720270198
>Pure RNG fucking player over is neither fun nor good game design.
you will never be a woman

>>720270108
Either the fan-modded v3.1 Apple II version or the Japanese PS1 version. Oh and whatever you do don't play the DOS version. There's a nasty bug that never got fixed in it where your stats tend to go down when you level rather than up (that can happen in the original game but it's A LOT more likely in DOS) and I swear people think the game's more bullshit than it actually is because of this bug.

>>720267810 (OP)
this shit wasn't hard. it was just "can you use your instant kill skill before you get instant killed"
if you actually play old RPGs instead of basing your entire opinion on what some autists say you'd realise that most common strategy in those games made you cheese all the BS "good" systems.

>>720267810 (OP)
taking this opportunity to shill Wizardry The Five Ordeals
Please play it

>>720270198
>Pure RNG fucking player over is neither fun nor good game design
non white hands typed this post

>>720269425
If the priest is as strong in W1 as it is in Five Ordeals then OP could probably survive the ambush. Just one trivialized Traveler's Property

>>720270108
>>720270373
Hang on I'll provide links. Here's the v3.1 fan version:
https://www.zimlab.com/wizardry/proving-grounds-v3/

It's the original Apple II version plus a bunch of bugfixes and some QoL improvements from the sequels/later ports added in (no magic on suprise rounds, you can pool/divy gold in the shop and so on.) It's got everything you need packed in including an Apple II emulator already set up, clear, easy instructions on how to get it running and the original manuals (and I'd recommend downloading this anyway if you want to play the PS1 version just for the spell lists.)

The PS1 version is also good BUT it's in Japanese. Luckily there's oprtions to translate it to English in the menus but they're all in Japanese. So follow CallMeSnek's instructions in this thread:
https://rpgcodex.net/forums/threads/long-live-wizardry-and-the-all-new-games-by-ex-wizardry-developers.105918/page-56#post-6190142

Just flick the switches in pic related to change it to English. The only downside? The Japanese devs forgot to translate the spell descriptions into English. But that's okay cause they weren't in the original Apple II version and are all in the manual - hence why I recommended you get the v3.1 version just because it has a clean scan of it plus an even simpler list of spells that you just reference on the fly. All the spell names are the same - it's just the descriptions in Japanese.

Have fun.

>>720270198
It's really not that hard. People are either describing Wizardry IV (which IS bullshit hard for the sake of being bullshit hard,) the DOS port (with its leveling bug) or are just fucking whining cause they couldn't get good. Even OP's pic is from the late, LATE game, likely floor 9 or 10 near the final boss. That party should be ready to take on Werdna by that point.

That said then rare off-chance you'll get teleport into rock and get your whole party wiped with no chance of reviving them is pure bullshit, I'll grant you that.

>>720270473
ok, I'll get it sale, hard games spook me

>>720270982
Does the modded apple II version have sound or music? Would be rad if the famicom or super famicom OSTs could be modded in.

>>720269105
enemies can't cast spells in the ambush turn

>>720267810 (OP)
horrible thread

>>720267810 (OP)
No, because I wouldn't play this bullshit game

>>720270982
If you're playing early 1980's CRPGs WITHOUT reading the manual, you're either an idiot or using some replacement like gamefaqs or a wiki, which also counts as an idiot.

It requires the old, OLD pre advanced dungeons and dragons mindset that death can happen, and you deal with it as part of the learning process sometimes.

>>720271710
Nah, it has a few sound effects (and always has) but they're pretty basic bleeps and bloops. You can just play the soundtrack on its own while playing though... not ideal but hey, what can you do?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2hHo76SR8o

>>720272614
Oh yeah, I know. I'm just recommending the scan from the v3.1 version as it's the cleanest scan I've seen on the internet (most are scuffed up, low quality or have the original owners scribbles in the margins.) Besides with Wizardry you HAVE to have the manual open on the Mage/Priest spells while you play (at least until you get used to all the spell and know them off by heart) otherwise you're fucked.

Anyone gog the wizardry screen cap where anon explains the bullshit in those games? I thought it was amuzing.

>>720270359
>>720270486
epic memes faggots, sorry my argument ruffled your feathers so much
go bash your head against the ''''game'''' till RNG ends up in your favor so you can gloat about how good you are at RNG

Who would play this? Games are meant to be fun. Of course modern devs have lost sight of that lesson, but these white men should have known better. No wonder I've never heard of this and the franchise is gone. Seems like it deserves it.

>>720272917
This one?

>>720273054
Meh the thing OP's screenshot doesn't show is that he's in the late, LATE game - nearly up to the point where he can beat the final boss. It's also a later port so none of the monsters can use magic in a surprise ambush so it's not nessesarily a death sentence (still bad luck tho.)

Wizardry 1 really isn't THAT hard, there's a little bit of bullshit RNG that can screw you over but it's reputation as being this impossible game's been way over-exaggerated over the years. Now Wizardry IV? That one is bullshit and hard for the sake of being hard. People nowadays tend to conflate the two.

for me it's Wizards & Warriors

>>720273225
Thanks fren

>>720269425
>decimate
stopped reading

>>720269105
So its savescum or repeating same game until you will have normal encounter.
Its just waste of time

>>720274264
Yeah but not for the reason you're thinking.

>>720274264
Nah, you can't savescum in Wizardry 1, game only saves when you exit and enter the dungeon (although I'm sure you can savescum via save states if you're playing it on an emulator.)

Part of the appeal of Wizardry 1 is that you can fuck up/have really bad luck but still survive and then it becomes like a survival horror game where you have to make a b-line out of the dungeon before getting killed. It's a legit intense thrill that modern games have barely ever recaptured

>>720274442
You can in the one in OP's pic (PS1).

>>720274484
Can you? I mean not via save states - I mean actual 'save scumming.' I know you can make saves when out of the dungeon but you could burn back-up copies of your characters even in the original Apple II version

>>720274541
Yes. It also gives you a detailed auto-map and ruins teleporters and spinners.

>>720274805
Oh I know about the automap, I've played a bit of it (I'd already played through the game - I was just curious about the ports) I just legit don't remember being able to save in the dungeon. Maybe I just missed it.

>>720267810 (OP)
There aren't any videogame rpgs.

>>720270014
>Niggas in a row
into the trash your opinion goes, redditor

>>720274889
Oh wait my bad I thought you were talking about how the original would autosave upon leaving the dungeon. I'd consider loading a save to bypass party wipes savescumming.

>>720274541
The original? Save only outside the dungeon.

>>720274264
You are not guaranteed all encounters are winnable. You are not guaranteed a path to victory by staying in a "safe" area and leveling. Especially in the old games with a time limit.

Repeating is part of game, and is no more a waste of time than video games at all.

>>720275074
I wouldn't. The game could decide to delete your party on death and ban reloads, and some of the old school games did that.

>>720275158
>You are not guaranteed a path to victory by staying in a "safe" area and leveling.
Yeah you are.

>>720275074
That's not what 'savescumming' generally means. That's creating a backup. Save scumming is when you save right before an encounter and then keep reloading it until the RNG (or whatever) goes your way. You can't do that in Wizardry (unless you're using save states on an emulator but that's just fucking cheating isn't it?)

>>720275158
>You are not guaranteed a path to victory by staying in a "safe" area and leveling.
No? You generally are although going to the next floor usually gets you more xp

>Especially in the old games with a time limit.
...have you played Wizardry? Wizardry 1 doesn't have a time limit. What the fuck are you talking about?

>>720275613
Savescumming is just reloading until you get a desirable outcome.
You weren't able to reload in the original to avoid party wipes.
It counts.

>>720269105
So the early game in any SMT?

>>720275773
Random fairies and yakuza aren't killing you even if they ambush you.

>>720270198
>pure rng, life
:0
>pure rng, game
>:(

>>720269425
Shouldn't fear spells help with Greater Demon encounters? I don't try to Tiltowait them since they resist it too often to be reliable. Ambushes are definitely fucked though, later games letting you use Litofeit to lower ambush chance is huge. Wizardry 1 does feel like a "get fucked lol" simulator at times, but I didn't run into that as much with 2 or 3 despite both being basically expansion packs.
>>720269683
Outside of the shield boss in 2 I found its combat to be overall easier. That boss does hit unusually hard though.
>>720270108
I like the PS1 version of 1-5 the most. Alternatively, if you want to ease yourself into Wizardry more, the Gaiden spinoff series on GB and SNES is really well designed. You can still do things like autosaving after every action like the original Apple ][ games with Gaiden 2 onward's "Maniac mode" too, which it'll ask if you want to enable it when you start up a new game.
>>720270345
SNES port is very cool, but it's rebalanced, putting Knight of Diamonds after Legacy of Llygamyn which makes no sense since LoL takes place a whole generation after KoD. That being said it does give thieves Ambush which is cool and wouldn't be a thing until 5 otherwise.

>>720275770
>You weren't able to reload in the original to avoid party wipes.
No you could create backups floppies of your characters in the original Apple II version. It's literally in the options menu - see the option to M)ake Scenario Disk? That lets you backup your characters and burn them to a new floppy

>>720275989
Literally savescumming.

>>720267810 (OP)
So it's literally impossible? What's even the point of playing this game if you have to cheese it or use exploits to not game over on the first turn?

>>720276010
If you say so, all I'm saying is this:
>You weren't able to reload in the original to avoid party wipes.
is wrong.

>>720273225
This doesn't sound like a fun series

>>720276179
That's mostly Wizardry IV - which IS bullshit - the rest of the series is way easier

>>720276078
You weren't INTENDED to. Yeah almost everyone cheated around it, but that's not how it was designed.

>>720276415
Then why did Woohead and Greenberg INTENTIONALLY program in an option to back-up your characters then?

>>720267810 (OP)
I really like how Resonance of Fate handled difficulty, the game can be ballbusting hard at times but the difficulty doesn't come from random chance of death but your own mistakes. Imo pure turn based, aka 4 niggas in a row can never be truly hard because it either boils down to luck or knowledge of the game. You have to introduce an element of timing (FFX-2, LR:XIII) or positioning to get actual difficulty.

>>720267810 (OP)
no. go play knights of the chalice 2 or underrail if you want something fun and difficult

>>720272813
>We Love Wizardry
I love how incredibly Dragon Quest the music is, guess it makes sense as the composer was Japanese and probably based it off Dragon Quest and other similar fantasy media. Guess it all comes full circle in the end.

>>720269015
the surprise round would hurt, but you'd have a good chance of escaping (or more risky, nuking them with a tilt or using a wish)

>>720276179
The funny thing? It's WEIRDLY fun. That's why it has a fanbase. They all feel surprisingly tight to play, which makes overcoming the bullshit and mastering the mechanics so damn fun. It's rewarding, and you feel accomplished when you succeed. Some are better than others obviously, but Wizardry is honestly a very fun series to pick up and start diving into.

>>720278298
I'm going to guess that GENERAL progression is actually not that difficult/lengthy? It really depends on how bad a full setback is. Particularly very early video games could be completed in minutes, often enough, if you actually knew how to play already.

modern RPGs are essentially dating sims with tacked on adventure story
you can blame Bioware for it, the very same that you all worshipped for years as the king of the genre, not the modern one

>western wizardy games
>Cool meshup schizotech in magic world with rat mafia, spaceship, and guns
>Japanese wizardy games
>Boring ass dungeon crawler in generic fantasy setting
Why is it like this

>>720276216
Yeah, IV is the "haha perish" entry. You literally start alone, level 1, in a dungeon full of endgame-tier enemies from the previous titles. It's masochism disguised as gameplay. But the rest? Much more manageable. 5 gives you more tools, 6-7 go harder on worldbuilding and give you some QoL, and 8 is probably the most accessible of the bunch. Don’t let IV scare you off the whole franchise.

>>720278698
>rat mafia, spaceship, and guns
Retarded.

>>720267810 (OP)
Why are Ninjas, Greater Demons, Nightstalkers, and Ogres teaming up to kill you?

>>720278698
>western wizardy games
>ironic proto-redditors giving knights kitchen vegimizers and referencing Monty Python since its the only thing they know about Medieval times, hoping some laughs, and proto woke politics
>Japanese wzardry
>Societies of adventurers plagued by evil wizards blended with Eastern philosophy, legends of cursed swords, high adventure, and all taken 100% seriously and unironically
Anime. Fucking. Website.

>>720278528
Going to go out on a limb and guess here.

Modern RPGs have to cope with the idea of builds and build choices. Older DnD based games, as a comparison point, are pretty ass to play precisely because you can't use the majority of classes in any capacity. The few that work with how they built the campaign only have one build each that really functions. The companions, for some reason, are built like ass. Probably so they can't just carry you. They feel bad and are super frustrating to play unless you want to play the one thing you're actually intended to do.

If you want the game to be more broadly playable, and playable by random builds, you have to tone down some things. The 10 strength rogue and the 18 strength strength fighter both have to be able to complete this game. Which boils down to more than where your stats are going. Imagine a class entirely based around critical hits in a campaign where no enemy can be critical hit. Weird niche vulnerabilities start to be shaved away by design cause someone wants to play that rogue that relies on crits.

You could say not to design a class like that in a game like this, but that's the same issue from the other direction.

>>720269425
>you better hope and pray
So much for a "hard" game

>>720273874
completely forgot about this game
is it any good?

>>720267810 (OP)
my experience with Wizardry 1 on PC 98 wasn't too bad, I got through with it in about 12 hours without major issues
>ambushes are rare, if they ambush your giga nigga fighters hold the line
>if you build HP on your casters from reclassing they shrug off area spells from your enemy
>you firebomb everything with madalto mahalito and occasional katino
some newish RPG on the highest difficulty is way more challenging

>>720269105
Most regular encounters on Metaphor if you get ambushed it's over

>>720273225
he's wrong on exactly on count: the japs did remake Wizardry 4
it's on the PS1 as part of the New Age of Llylgamyn collection

>>720267810 (OP)
Nah this is just shitty game design before anyone knew what they were doing, same with turn-based combat as a whole.

>>720279272
Real chads played Wizardry Gaiden 1 on GB.

>>720270982
>QoL improvements
no thanks

>>720267810 (OP)
I don't know how people can ever go back to playing these barebones shit RPG at this point. Never even saw the appeal to begin with. A big appeal of the genre is the visuals and spectacle. Not spreadsheets and simple pictures at best.

>>720287132
They're quality of life improvements that got made in 1982/83 for the sequels and then added to most ports of 1. It's 2 changes but they really do minimize the bullshit factor

>>720267810 (OP)
>deleveling and character permadeaths
So the game centers around over grinding to offset the penalty of grinding back the level penalities?
That sure sounds exciting.

I enjoyed Wizardry Daphne so I'm looking forward to playing the originals

This thread is weird for me to see how much /v/'s opinion has changed. It really must be all newfags

>>720294213
It's just that everyone has stopped pretending that turn based slop JRPGs are fun and good. It's the new paradigm.

>>720270108
DOS or ydbtg

>>720294862
ok newfag

Floor 1... home...

for me it is the duhan duology