Thread 721112497

Who is right and who is wrong?

>>721112497 (OP)
intrinsic is left

>>721112497 (OP)
The real game doesn't start until you have your entire moveset.

>>721112497 (OP)
wtf is this an actually interesting comparison that actually pertains to video games?
It depends on game genre, like fighting games should have every move unlocked from the get-go but in general I like games where you have all the moves because the devs can balance their game more easily since the player experience is less complex

>>721112592
It sure is

>>721112592
>It's on the left side of the image
TRVTH NVKE

>>721112497 (OP)
Intrinsic. Extrinsic is so stupid.
>I couldn’t do this thing before but now I… LE CAN!!!

>>721112497 (OP)
The guy who wants to enjoy the game is clearly better and wiser than the guy who wants more skinner boxes

Top left is zoomers who only like ADHD sandbox shit, bottom right is normal people

>>721112497 (OP)
The game should be fun right away but become MORE fun later. We can have it both ways.

I am right and all others are wrong, suck my dick.

>>721113254
Top left is what roguelikes used to be. Before they became lites. Also shit like strategy games. Just fucking pick a faction and enjoy yourself. Any and all of them

>>721112497 (OP)
thanks for the free twitter image im gonna farm so much engagement

>>721112497 (OP)
i hate video games and dont play them

>>721112497 (OP)
Most often extrinsic. Sometimes the unlocks drag out and are badly paced and intrinsic will be more correct. Also depends on the game genre greatly

>>721112497 (OP)
depends on the day if im being honest

>Everything is unlocked from the start
Some genres can suffer from this.
For example, a racing game with 40 cars and 20 race tracks.
If everything is unlocked, the player might try a bunch of tracks with a bunch of cars, get bored, and never open the game up again.
If the player only has 10 cars and 5 racetracks, it is more likely that the player will actually get invested into the game and try more content it has.

On the other hand, most simracing games have everything unlocked, but that targets a demographic of people who are looking for a specific thing, for they the challenge comes from the actual racing, not "completing the game".

>>721114090
Consider the amount of modern games that are all like
>Beat the game five times to unlock the mage
>Beat it 10 times to unlock astral magic
Or whatever the fuck. What's the point?

>>721112497 (OP)
many, many, many unlocks but also cheats to instantly get them all or in chunks and also some really wacky, game altering ones that can only be gotten with cheats/secrets

>>721114470
That's what I'd call a case of bad unlock pacing. Any unlocks that require beating the whole game in general are bad (except for roguelikes)

>>721114809
No roguelikes used to be the genre that shat you in the face with 20 races and 40 classes the second you launched the game.

>>721112497 (OP)
i'm top left and bottom right
just like playing games lads

>>721113636
This. Let me unlock shit thats changes how the game works.

You're not gonna try and remember every single move your character can have in an action game if it all comes unlocked from the start. But you upgrade your Lunar Staff to level 2 and now it has a 360 spin hold Y move? Sure, I'll check that out. Oh shit heads are flying, this move is good! Gonna use it more!
It's always a balance. If you can really do anything from the go I'll assume there isn't actually much to do.

>>721115268
Based multi gamer

>>721112497 (OP)
me on the top left and bottom right.

>>721115337
THIS GUY LIKES VIDEOGAMES

GET HIM

>>721112497 (OP)
I'm an hypocrite. I would say I'm an intrinsic nigger but then after playing for a while I'll be like "ah there's nothing more to this? no ng+, no new enemy types, no new item stats?"

Almost always this dichotomy does not actually exist even if the fact is hidden somehow. You need some means you acquire inside the game to be able to interact with some parts of it. Resources, experience, gold, items. Doesn't matter.
Formalising unlocks, especially as mandatory third-party spyware, is the problem.

>>721115086
this nigga can't type n t m and type his name at the start of nethack

>>721115283
>You're not gonna try and remember every single move your character can have in an action game if it all comes unlocked from the start.
Reminder that most players forgot their weapons had an Alt fire in Doom Eternal, which is why Doom Dark Ages has you pick which version of a weapon you want to use.

>>721115563
It's me, hacks suck. *bands are great. Literally no contest

>>721115283
>You're not gonna try and remember every single move your character can have in an action game if it all comes unlocked from the start
Yeah, I would. What a stupid thing to say.

>>721114809
>unlocks
>in roguelikes
You have been found guilty of committing the sin of defending metaprogression. The punishment is being a retarded faggot, which you already were.

>>721115592
wtf how?

>>721115803
The truth is that most gamers are actually retarded. Whether casuals, zoomers, women, etc. they're all dumb as fuck.

>>721112723
Surely has to be a certain trust of the player when you let them go hog wild, and figure it out from the start. Aiming for the nu-casual market was a mistake.

>>721115631
i get it, although i've only played angband once forever ago
i just have a fondness for nethack because it was my first roguelike
recently got into ADOM and it's pretty fun too
and i like ToME4 as contentious as that game is. not sure how much of the moria/angband influence is left in 4 though

>>721112497 (OP)
If unlocking stuff is gated by story then it's garbage.

Game dependent.
Extrinsic can work with platformers, unlocking new moves and designing crazier levels compounding on previous skills learned.
Intrinsic can also work with platformers, a centralized mechanic that the levels can be designed in ways to teach and test you on how well you understand the mechanic.

I don't like unlocks that make the game easier and trivialize everything you did before through gameplay

>>721115960
I played ToME before it became modern tome for whatever it's worth. I honestly appreciate the mixup of the formula. With cooldowns and whatever. It doesn't stray too far.
I believe I started with ZangbandTK. A kind of wonky and comedyish branch. Which still had assloads of options from the start. And just got stuck in various band branches afterwards. Nethack was just too different and "weird." Can't put my finger on it.
Still, even modern roguelikes. Which actually try to be even somewhat true such as Rift Wizard, Cogmind. While definitely mixing up the formula. Are great.

I'm thinking a game like Mario Sunshine should have default Mario's kit available and functional for 90% of the game if you're good enough, but you unlock the FLUDD water gun and nozzles as you progress through the game, which to the more novice gamer will be the intended challenge flow.

>>721116103
Consider "puzzle platformers" for a moment. Where you might have all the moves from the start. It's not about progression within a single playthrough. But more so meta progression.
However, those moves have more nuance to them than what you thought they did 4 areas ago. So you go back knowing that fuck. I could have done this the whole time? That's amazing.
Intrinsic is leveling up yourself. Extrinsic is getting a carrot because you were such a good boy.

>>721113636
Agreed.

>>721116232
oh yeah, cogmind is neat as hell, i need to play morr of it. maybe i'll check out rift wizard too, is there a reason to play 1 over 2?
and i think one of the issues with nethack is the breadth of it, which causes you to need a high level of metaknowledge to do well consistently, like knowing what dlvls certain creatures or level entrances can spawn or all the eight million mechanics and interactions they shove in.

>>721112497 (OP)
Getting to fuck around in a game from the start is part of the fun.
Being able to unlock more stuff through other playthroughs and difficulties is great when it's done right.

>>721116218
If the game is balanced about losing or winning X times. It wasn't balanced well in the first place.
Like "enemy x needs y hits to kill." But you can only do that after z meta level ups. Then it could just as well have been a normal enemy and you don't have to die/win z meta levels.

>>721116456
True, but extrinsic can also allow you to throw mechanics at the wall without making players frustrated that it was never communicated to them earlier. It all depends on the tone of the game I suppose. Something like Metroid is fun in trying to break the game WITHOUT unlocks (Or getting unlocks earlier) while as you said, certain puzzle platformers are better when you have the tools the entire time and get drip fed cool tech you can do with them.

>>721116496
Eeh. They're a bit different. Most of the skills and spells are the same. With a different way to upgrade them. In 1 you can get all upgrades, but they're more like +6 damage, +2 radious. Basic shit.
In 2 you only get one upgrade, but it changes the whole spell. Something like, instead of being a targeted ball/area spell. It's now a wave spell which also does arcane+death damage.
They're both good. Even though they look the same it's actually quite a difference. 2 is also way, way fucking harder holy shit.
Also the equipment system in 2 is much more interesting than the shrine "upgrade one spell" thing.

Either way. I recommend the,. Both are damn near goty to me.

>>721113636
That only looks better because it implies more content. Since you're throwing things to unlock on top of things already unlocked.

Instead think of it as a choice of seeing the same options you had before but half of them are now locked.

>>721116218
The game design would benifite from complicating the challenges or puzzles from that point. If a super jump unlock makes verticle climbing srgments easier, maybe a few more enemies will help keep the player on their toes while the navitage upward easier.

>>721116889
One upgrade out of a few choices that is*

>>721116889
thanks bro, i'll check them out.

>>721115772
ToME is a better roguelike than your favourite roguelike, leave your cope, seethe and dilators at the door

>>721114470
fucking mario sports mix
>every single unlock is tied to the sport you were playing and doesn't unlock anywhere else
>even shit that doesn't change mechanically between sports like reskins

Bump, I want to see more

>>721112497 (OP)
most retarded shit matthewmatosis ever made a video about

I'm this guy

>>721112497 (OP)
I like both top left and bottom right.

>>721112497 (OP)
yooka laylee and donkey kong 64 prove that collectatons are often better off an intrinsic type game most of the time

>>721112497 (OP)
I am upper left. Everyone should be like this because if they're not they aren't actually video game fans, they are soulless npcs. Tears of the Kingdom is the best game of all time and it's not even close.

>>721115337
Same

>>721121447
Why must you embody the /v/ meme?

>>721113636
dare i say /thread

Like many things, a healthy balance is best. Lock secrets away but don't force the player down unlock hallways. Give some freedom to explore your choices but give the player lots of choices.

>>721115915
this
someone post the hl2 cave commentary

>>721124179
>Tester walks in circles forever
>Valve decides to remove the loop so you can't do that
Is that enough?

>>721124104
I still think the Sakurai Unlock Grid (Smash Bros., Kirby's Air Ride, Meteos, Kid Icarus Uprising) is the best approach. You list the challenges but not the reward and you give the player the ability to use in-game resources to force unlock a challenge if they see the square and go "that sounds awful, I'm not fucking doing that".
Dr. Robotnik's Ring Racers did that and it was pretty great.

the slow trickle of new items is interesting because they constantly recontextualize the items already in the game
nubby used a different strategy, of changing how each item works in different modes, which is cool but it creates a lot of extra work for the developer

>>721112497 (OP)
IT DOESN'T MATTER

It depends if you are unlocking unique and fun stuff or just "it does x more damage" and enemies scale with you anyway

>>721112497 (OP)
it completely depends on the kind of game and how unlocks are handled
take roguelites for example
in most you unlock more modifiers, characters, and maybe even side areas or alternate paths over time as you win and make progress
it gives the games longevity but if the unlock methods aren't handled well it can just make the game feel tedious
which brings up another issue with this design philosophy, the game can end up feeling incomplete until you're dozens maybe hundreds of runs in and you have an ample amount of unlocks to give you a proper sense of variety and randomness
alternatively if there's too many things to unlock once you get near the end it can feel like there's too much or that there are a million unlocks for the sake of being able to say there are a million unlocks but they end up not being very impactful individually
there are also more classically designed roguelites that don't have metaprogression at all and it all comes down to you personally accruing and understanding of the game's mechanics and what it can throw at you which can lead to similar problems
it can be a very fine line to tread and even after all this time many devs still fail to make a good balance

the concept of unlocks has been raped in the modern context anyway since its typically just used as a method for devs to entice you to pay for shit with roguelites being one of the few exceptions left

>>721112497 (OP)
Where's the
>This is all shit.
Option?

>>721112497 (OP)
>have to unlock a bunch of actually good weapons and abilities so you even have a chance at beating the game
Trash
>have a complete game you can play through with tons of unlockables to give the game high replay value
Fun

>>721112497 (OP)
Depends on the genre.

>>721121447
I don't remember making this post