Thread 723544283

There is no actual benefit to autismally complex RPG systems.

Math is not fun. Keep it simple, stupid.

>>723544283 (OP)
>Math is not fun
All video game used maths, in fact a lot of video game are just really pretty excel sheet.

>>723544283 (OP)
Fallout has a complex character design? Dude, the skills is called "Guns" - if you're good at "Guns", you shoot better. You can't tell me smart questions/observations due to high Int checks are complex for todays crowd ...

>>723544283 (OP)
>Complex RPG system bad
>Actually complaining about undirected scrumboard shit, the exact kind of management style that benefits from these lazy shortcuts and is going to use them to make even less compelling systems

>>723544448
If that die modifier was called "firearms" do you think it would still stick out to you?

>>723544674
oh no, not the synonyms!

>>723544283 (OP)
If all your systems are simple and shallow, then every player's interest will also stop at a shallow level.

>>723544597
What the fuck were you trying to type here?

>>723544897
This also applies if you mask complexity. Pokemon is an actual in-depth RPG that is held back by the devs disallowing you to engage with those systems in any convenient way, leaving it with the highest grossing franchise of all time and a fanbase that will accept literal shit being shovelled into their mouth as long as they get to have their favourite pokemon in the game.

>Can't see HP or damage numbers in battle
>No in-game way of seeing internal stat modifiers like EVs and IVs
>Only way to get favourable EVs is to just magically know which pokemon to fight to gain points in those modifiers
>Only way to get favourable IVs is to get lucky
>Held items giving secondary effects are never used by opponents
>Opponents only ever have 1 healing item on them at a time
>Entire pokemon dedicated to arena effect transformations, not a single opponent uses it as a strategy
>Actual complex 2v2 battle mode is all but forgotten
>No indication of the distinction between Physical and Special attacks
All this leading to what normies percieve as a game of rock paper scissors, because it's the only battle mechanic that's actually tutorialised. These lectures are about getting more normoids to play what's meant to be systems driven games.

>>723544283 (OP)
Stats spreadsheets are literally the illusion of choice. Theoretically there's like one billion unique combinations but there's usually 1-3 optimal builds and every other combination is just gimped.
>b-but muh roleplay!
I don't see the roleplay value in playing a mage with 99 int and 11 str instead of 100 int and 10 str. Especially when the game won't even acknowledge it. Yes yes stat checks yes yes Arcanum, those work on thresholds, if you fall between thresholds there's no difference so there's a lot of "dead" combinations that waste points on secondary stats without going far enough to get over the thresholds so you get nothing for it.

>>723544975
If you can't make a coherent system and your RPG system just devolves into endless "+3% fire damage when it's raining", then simplifying the RPG system is still going to end up being incoherent and unappealing.

>>723544283 (OP)
stick to J"RPG". They remove all player agency for dumb gooks and weebs like you

>>723544283 (OP)
>two triangles
>no math
But that's wrong.

>>723545432
So what, fighting games have 30+ characters but usually only 1-3 are top tiers along with another 1 or 2 that are so busted they're banned in tournaments. No one gives a shit.

>>723545472
Choosing which man to fuck doesn't make WRPGs better

>>723545339
They must be doing something right, with Pokemon being the largest franchise in the world and your favorite game being played only by a handful of annoying autists.

>>723544283 (OP)
What game does that?

>>723544283 (OP)
League of Legends has the right system:
>more HP
>more mana
>more dmg
>more attack speed
>more magic
>more armor
>less cooldowns
For a singleplayer game Hades is a food pick, any upgrade you pick or boon says very clearly what it does.

>>723544283 (OP)
He's retarded, if you make a game with complicated math you build the *game* around the complicated math and allow the players and the AI to fucking math wizard it out.

If you make a game with simple math, you make the *game* around the simple math and let players math wizard the fuck out of it.

Having complex or simple systems but not allowing the player to utilize the complexity in ways that feel natural or obvious is what makes them garbage. The best examples are tactics or strategy games where you have obvious combinations and synergies between units, but the game isolates each unit and the only interaction allowed is "deal damage to enemy" or "defend". It's why every trpg that isn't Disgaea feels fucking jank as shit despite Disgaea games being garbage for other reasons.

I never engaged with the end game or item world grinding, I just played them through the story with some moderate grinding but playing other games in the genre now that still forces you to Esc out 3 times to redo a move instead of holding down a key to reposition your character with the attack still ready is genuine fucking garbage. Or when they flat out refuse to let you undo anything so the difficulty comes from not having a perfect mental map of every move so you need to reload the entire fight.

>>723545572
False equivalence. Fighting game characters have unique aesthetics, unique gameplay styles, etc. so you can see some meaningful value in selecting a subpar character. This would be more like having Ryu and then a literal identical 1:1 copy of Ryu with the same name and everything but does 1 extra damage per hit, the community's gonna figure out which one is optimal and use that one and if you pick the other one you're either clueless and fell for the noob trap or a special snowflake that's gimping himself just to be different. There's value for having different builds in an RPG, but this is usually tied to passing thresholds for stat checks and otherwise you just dump it all on your main stat, anything that falls inbetween these specific builds is gimping yourself for literally zero gain.

>>723544448
>pick from dozens of different stats
>combat system sucks balls either way

>>723545339
Pokemon is a game FOR CHILDREN.

>>723545339
And yet none of this actually adds any depth to the game.

>>723545339
A lot of this stuff is not true or inaccurate

I have been playing Sunbreak and it's lovely how the stats are so simple and you just pick armor pieces to improve then, but then the skill and decoration system is a ridiculous clusterfuck. Even though everyone will end up picking earplugs and divine blessing anyway.

>>723544283 (OP)
>Yucky
Adults who speak like children should be sent to their rooms without supper until they starve to death.

Fucking sick of this baby-talking bullshit.
Gonna slap the fuck out of the next person who can vote that says "eepy"

>>723545929
The point seems to be that that complex math systems are generally useless.

>>723546161
He is literally gay.

>muh RPG systems
Fuck you, this is perfection.

>>723545724
Yeah, in the end it's working out great for them, but it still bothers me that they'd go to this length to make something with mechanical complexity and still design it so that you're actively punished for engaging with it. Being charitable, a lot of the design philosophy around EVs and IVs is just meant to simulate the act of breeding animals meant for fighting. Nature is going to bless or curse them with certain genes, and you need to be particular in the way you train them to get gains you're not entirely sure is actually going to benefit them. It's intentionally uncertain, but it goes against the design philosophy of a party building RPG.

>>723546105
Unless I'm mistaken, the only outdated thing is that IVs now have an item for boosting them, which is admittedly a good change.

>>723546140
Who the fuck is picking earplugs in modern MH? Every weapon has a shit ton of iframes now.

>>723544283 (OP)
It actually is fun, you don't find math fun because you're dumb.
Go ahead and try to prove me wrong dumbass.

>>723546002
And?

>>723546227
Because he and the people he's speaking to are midwits that don't understand math and have no idea how to make math engaging and fun.
That or they simply won't get the time and budget to make a fun game, they're supposed to collect salary and sell a product quickly, not make fun games.

>>723545938
>Fighting game characters have unique aesthetics, unique gameplay styles, etc.
The exact same thing is true for different builds in an RPG. If you pick a certain build then there are entirely different gameplay goals and gameplay subsystems that you do or don't have to worry about.
>This would be more like having Ryu and then a literal identical 1:1 copy of Ryu with the same name and everything but does 1 extra damage per hit, the community's gonna figure out which one is optimal and use that one and
This is literally what some fighting game characters are like. It's bad balancing in any case. The same rules apply for balancing both fighting game characters and builds in an RPG.
>if you pick the other one you're either clueless and fell for the noob trap or a special snowflake that's gimping himself just to be different.
How is this different from people who genuinely DO main lower-tier characters in a fighting game? Is their choice not valid, and should those characters be removed from the game? People don't pick these things like they're autistic AI robots, they pick things that are fun for them personally, and gimping yourself on purpose but still managing to do well IS an inherently fun thing to do.

>>723546397
Pretty sure everyone uses earplugs and only speed trannies bother executing the moves perfectly.

>>723546432
A lot of the decision of the game are made around the fact that it's a children game on motorcycles. Hiding stats is very much intentional.

>>723546452
The top competitive games are Chess, StarCraft and League of Legends. None of them have convoluted stat systems that are common in Homo RPGs.

>>723546648
Agreed that'd make sense, but they don't hide everything. You can't see HP or damage numbers in battle, but you do get to see a pokemon's nature, stats, exp, and their skill power/effects. By hiding the direct mathematical result of these stats, and the power of skills, you get a game where the stats are both visible and invisible, and never truly mattering. If they truly wanted to make it a game for children they would forgo this design philosophy entirely and just lean into the Rock paper Scissors mechanics they keep heavily pushing.

>>723546387
The game marks which skills are physical/special, enemies do use held items and doubles are the main competitive format. You can’t see enemy HP for gameplay reasons, but you can see your own health and damage taken. EVs are told to you in a vague chart, and can be boosted with vitamins rather than by fighting Pokemon

>>723544283 (OP)
Why even try to make an RPG at that point? You obviously don't like what they have to offer. Just make an action game instead.

>>723546810
The smart thing would be to include a toggle. But the real crime is how complicated is to optimize stats in the game.

>>723545432
>All chess pieces should be Queens because all the other pieces are gimped and the strategy is therefore just an illusion.

>>723544283 (OP)
Literally all you need is a simple but functional path for people who want to opt out and an easy respec for people who want to fuck around.
That way you can make it as complex as you like, add as much item dependent builds as you want, and everyone's happy.
The problems only happen when autistic number crunching is mandatory or doing anything but minmaxxing one stat is pointless.

>>723544283 (OP)
But I like math.

>>723546937
>you should be able to add stats to the pawns so they can move a fraction of an extra square for each time they level up

>>723544283 (OP)
retarded spergs who can't tell complicated from deep are a big market

>>723546823
Okay a lot of those must be in later games. I understood that Physical and Special attacks were denoted by their element, and couldn't think of any instance in the games I played where this was explained.
I also admittedly was exaggerating, but I don't think post-game content really counts when it comes to opponents using held items. Neither does double battles now being purely competitive. I don't care about competitive personally.
>You can't see enemy HP for gameplay reasons
Wish I knew what those reasons were, because I don't see what being able to see exact enemy HP changes. It's not like you can know the exact damage you'll do anyway since there's damage variance.

>simple but complex
But what if we added another twenty pieces and allowed players to customize the stats of each piece before the match starts?

>>723547078
I notice you bothered to shitfling with strawman posts, but didn't respond when I broke your points down one by one >>723546492. Care to explain?

>>723547276
Hero shooters try to pull this off and fail spectacularly where competitive RTS succeeds without trying.

>>723544283 (OP)
I'm retarded and don't like math but I like to feel that my character is unique. So I want to have a lot of options, and I want all of them to be viable (because I'm not reading all the stats)

>>723547167
I’m guessing you only played the first 3 gens? In newer gens special attacks, physical attacks, and status attacks have their own icons. And if you don’t care about competitive none of this shit like EVs and IVs even matters anyway.

>>723544283 (OP)
>points?
>trees?
>upgrades?
>we should instead use points but they're on a graph!
Revolutionary.


Bad RPG design is when players get softlocked. You cannot get softlocked in 3D Fallout games or normal difficulty PoE because your build doesn't matter. Confusing numbers are actually fine, youtubers who complain DR/DT/physical/energy/plasma is stupid are not your customers who don't give a shit. The point of confusing numbers is to hide that your RPG is actually using the age old "Bigger number = Better" pen & paper RPG system.
And if you have such a good idea for an RPG, why aren't you making an RPG instead of being paid to make powerpoints?

>>723545339
>Pokemon is an actual in-depth RPG
Hahahahahaha
I'm sorry, yes it's rock-paper-scissors, and has what an RPG needs but hoo boy every run is just getting a complete roster of tools for every situation and the actual game is just grinding for shinies

>>723544283 (OP)
Go play Call of Dookie or some normalfag shit instead.

>>723544283 (OP)
rpg are games kinda slop though
I only play them for the story and animations

>>723547507
Yeah, I gave Sun & Moon a try when it came out but I was already very jaded and couldn't care to engage with it mechanically.
EVs and IVs do matter in Emerald's postgame though, the Battle Frontier is a shitshow if you don't optimize your EVs at the very least, and I think the best indication you get there is an NPC that evaluations the sum of your pokemon's IVs. I don't care for competitive, but I do care for optional hard content in RPGs, since that's always where the mehcanical depth gets pushed to allow the main story to be braindead for storyfags.

>>723544283 (OP)
This is the same bullshit that ruined fallout 4 like a decade ago.

>>723545339
Yeah but all of those systems are fucking shit and Pokemon is a terrible RPG. It's only played by mega-autists and I really couldn't give less of a fuck about them. In fact it works almost like a containment game.

I have anti-RPG fatigue.

>>723544283 (OP)
tell that to 3.5 chuds

>>723547662
I mean I guess but Pokemon Emerald is a 21 year old game I think complaining about it and trying to umbrella all Pokemon games as though none of that shit was ever messed with is stupid

LEAVE RPGS TO ME

>>723548098
Fair, I'm being biased because I see how they could make these things I find appealing more prominent, and later games just don't do it in a way that feels like it matters to me. That's probably just a consequence of decisions unrelated to the RPG mechanics though, like Pokemon bloat.

>>723544283 (OP)
Never once had to do math for an RPG. Just have some reasonable common sense when planning and do what the game tells you to, adapt it to your play style, maybe grind just a little more than you think you need to if you really need a buffer for some reason, and you can beat just about anything without much difficulty. You only get into gay math shit when you're doing autistic min-max shit which is almost never necessary.
Also
>good good yucky
Intensely Reddit.

>>723544283 (OP)
Cool retard thread, retard

>>723550502
>Intensely Reddit.
i think calling things yucky has more to do with him being a gay

>>723544283 (OP)
this is a faggot move you complex then streamline like in extraction shoots what prevents people from using their gear? losing it and not having ammo.
What is a solution? more standardized ammo types complexity lost? ability to tailor damage type? what is gained people will use their guns more, lose their guns more and provide more player versus player gameplay.

nice bait thread faggot
have my (you)

>>723544897
Chess is a very simple and shallow game, but the emergent complexity that comes from those simple rules and game pieces is nuts. I wish more games were like that.

>>723544283 (OP)
Math is fun. All systems are math. Everything is an optimization problem. Obscuring the math behind a chart just makes optimization a tiny bit harder.

>>723547397
>competitive RTS succeeds
LOL

>>723544283 (OP)
The more tables an RPG has, the more hype I am to play it.

I think I dislike the idea of being able to do more than basic buffing.
You go form balancing the game around how combat actually works, into balancing around some dev mandated minimum level of grinding and buffing. This can still be workable, as its really enjoyable to buff up a little, to play a posture game where rebuffing can be a important mechanic.
But you have games like Code Vein where they stopped trying. So instead the game is balanced around having a permanent NPC coop partner, to avoid the worst jank of not bothering to polish down and build up the system properly

But it also means the game could just devolve into stacking 8-12 buffs to make a oneshot build, and the game IS balanced around that.

>>723544283 (OP)
I'm start to think game dev it's a scam job, like you didn't make in the professional side of the IT and now you are stuck in a market where you don't jive a shit, don't understand ass but the pay it's better than flipping burger, so now it's a never ending pile of bullshit powerpoint till the retirement

>>723551904
Can't really compare competitive games to single player games. Chess is complex because you are fighting a living breathing humanoid and you have to predict that person's moves. In essence, you can say that you are fighting the human rather than the game itself.
99% of single player AI is simple enough that they themselves do not pose a challenge, the challenge then comes from the game design. Make that too simple and you'll have seen everything the game has to offer in minimal time.

>>723552180
imagine the heat
imagine the smell

>>723544283 (OP)
>Math is not fun.
Explosives prove this statement wrong.

>>723552662
For the last time, there's no such thing as Project Blue Beam.

Depends entirely on how those systems/numbers are implemented.

In TTRPGs, F.A.T.A.L. is incredibly complex. It's also completely unfun. There's a middle ground, you don't have to go completely barebones.

>>723544283 (OP)
ins't time cain a faggot who likes to oil up and shove giant dildos up his ass? I feel like that should be added to the OP image for context

>>723544283 (OP)
Heh. Sounds like he likes Storytelling systems over Roleplaying games.

>>723544283 (OP)
>Tim Cain
who?

I ve heard that back in 2004 that Tim Cain was considered a fraud, an anomaly among the Interplay/Troika clique. care to elaborate ? or I ll dig up rpgcodex archives.

>>723552984
Roll under/over system. Noticed a mistake in my own shitpost too late oh well.

>>723552847
FATAL thoughbeit was made as an extremely unserios, ironic shitpost on the next level that was misunderstood as a serious concept done by a dude that was doing it for shits and giggles. It was never meant to be played at a real table you can tell it by how it requires character generation program.

>>723553017
just seething homophobes

>>723544283 (OP)
Wait a minute

Combine those two triangles

>>723544283 (OP)
this sounds really gay
why would people want this?

>>723553109
Anon, it was clearly taken seriously. Magical realm fuckers are weird as fuck. Someone just doing shits and giggles does not do soemthing as expansive as that.
But a braindamaged autist does.

>>723550502
>Never once had to do math for an RPG
This isn't the got you like to believe it is.

>>723553302
>Does not do something as expansive as that.
Except someone like Alan Moore.

>>723544283 (OP)
Since giving this talk in 2017 he has only made one game and it was The Outer Worlds...

>>723553109
We don't accept that kind of tongue in cheek defense around here. Now roll for anal circumference.

>>723553480
I'm sure my anal circumference is a classic old 6 figures.

>>723544448
> You can't tell me smart questions/observations due to high Int checks are complex for todays crowd
It's the current year, modern gamers are actually worse than some journalists when it comes to playing games now. And whenever they're playing a "soulslike" they just copy and paste their shit from fextralife and pray to god that they don't press R1 at the wrong moment.

>>723553109
classic days

>>723545339
>Giant wall of verbose text
>For fucking pokemon of all things
90% of what you posted hasn't been true since like Gen 6 anyways.

>>723552727
explain this then

>10 million talents
>all of them are various variants of 1% damage
good systems, much variety
anyone who doesn't like it is a filtered shitter

>>723544283 (OP)
All combat in video games has to have autistically complex systems otherwise your pea brain won't find them fun and fair. The question is how much of those mechanics need to be revealed to the player and how much choice to influence them and how to present them in a way that doesn't require them to read textbooks of tutorials.

>>723544448
>Fallout has a complex character design?
for zoomoidalniggers and gen autismniggers, yes, absolutely, they absolutely cannot ever be able to parse and make value judgements on anything in fallout and can't even make it through the first abandoned vault if they can even manage to make it there without dying, forget the rest of the game, it is purely outside their realm of capability

>>723554043
I've seen more questionable tabletop RPGs come out from Japan than the rape date game of RPGs in the western hemisphere, just saying. If anything, just play GURPS with everything from any sourcebook available for player characters if you want to be extremely autistic about Tabletop RPG rules, they got rules for building your own car engine.

>>723545957
>make a retardedly shit build
>"it's the system's fault!"

>>723544283 (OP)
>Yucky
Don't use that word in a professional industry presentation, especially not to describe unfavorable numbers.

>>723545957
>Puts everything into melee.
>Most of the drops are for guns and bigger guns and laser guns.
Low INT IRL detected.

>>723553017
he's been a meme lolcow for the better part of 2 decades

>>723554859
>fast shot
>small guns
>10 int
>melee
retard

>>723554979
>No energy guns or big guns.
Small guns don't hit shit lmao.

>>723544283 (OP)
>Keep it simple, stupid.
Simple is for stupid, stupid

>>723544283 (OP)
why are so many developers and publishers convinced that they HAVE to sand the edges off their systems so dumbasses can't brick their character, or that every piece of 'content' needs to be accessible in a single playthrough? They're destroying the replayability of their games to appease the retards that just want to 'get it over and done with' before moving on to the next game.

>>723555450
Biggest, loudest and dumbest audience members (loud minority) get to say what your game does. Whilst the quiet majority just go with whatever and don't want to engage with schizos and retards.

>>723544283 (OP)
corpo translation for this who don't get it :
there's more retards alive than intelligent people, the amount of low IQ brownoid on the internet is increasing at an alarming rate too, so we need to make games for absolute retards who can't think and at best make something "difficult" for base line slaves who can actually count.

>>723555105
ahem, retarded nigger
>>723554859
>>>>>Puts everything into melee
don't try to move the goalposts to try to distract from the fact that you're a retarded nigger who never played fallout

>>723544283 (OP)
The ideal RPG is a simulation game that simulates a wide spectrum of player builds and gameplay choices in a numerically abstracted way. You tell me how you'd pull that off with no robust stats system.

>The dumbed down system in Fallout fucking 4 isn't even enough for these retards anymore.
Maybe try not tying weapon damage to arbitrary skills in random shit and just stick to keeping it to guns then.

>>723544370
Math is only for min/max autism

>>723544283 (OP)
I think everyone here needs to read about GNS theory
There’s no “objective best system” for an RPG. It all depends on what aspects of the game you want to focus on.

>>723544283 (OP)
That's literally just pokemon though and that game is SHIT

>>723544283 (OP)
Why have we not gotten a crpg based on GURPS yet?

>>723547652
>posting Nep while talking about story and animations

>>723545957
this is only a problem in the first fallouts where dumping agility is a shortcut to hell
every 3D fallout can be brute forced with a shit build

>>723544283 (OP)
JRPGs lost

>>723559950
>prefer crpg gameplay
>prefer jrpg visual and audio design
doomed to be forever disappointed ig

>>723544283 (OP)
>build variety isn't fun
Why even play RPGs then?

>>723544283 (OP)
>We have purposely trained them wrong... as a joke
Modern video gaming in nutshell

>>723560561
You know the rules.

>>723544283 (OP)
>yucky
Grown ass man btw.

>>723544283 (OP)
ok so why do no games have this system yet

Tim Cain hasn't done a damn thing of any note in two fucking decades and PoE is the undisputed, universally loved champion of its genre. Why exactly should I care at all about what this homosexual says?

isnt this just a second season of the whole "turn-based is old and nobody likes it" spectacle that consistently get it's ass beat?

>>723561831
idk im not you. I like some of his YouTube videos, it’s not like you have to agree with everything he says.

>>723544283 (OP)
>yucky instead of back
This alone removes all merit from the whole idea, and proves that anyone who wants games to be oversimplified has a mind that's no more mature than a toddler's.

>>723544283 (OP)
I tended to give them the benefit of the doubt that they didn't do this shit on purpose and were just stupid. My patience for the mentally disabled has turned to hatred for the normie. Niggerman help me I'm radicaliiiziiiing!

>>723562053
yes, except it's twice as retarded

>>723560717
>>723562551
FYI tim cain admits he unironically goes to disney world by himself as a 60 year old man

>>723545572
You don't play fighting games. There is no such thing as banned tournament characters and the balance is not as bad as you painted it to be. Maybe if you're playing some game from 1990 but no modern competitive fighting game is like that.

>>723545524
New shin megami tensei stat graph forma just dropped

>>723546356
>shows the game series with an autistic degree of stats a ton of normies now would claim is too confusing and useless.

>>723545432
>makes marginal investment in another stat
>receives marginally nothing
Wow you're very fucking bright. I would've gotten the criticism if it were that "splitting equally between strength and int often leads to a completely unviable build thus killing diversity" but you went with a completely unremarkable example unless 100 int grants you a special ability.

>>723545432
Isn’t the goal of really granular systems in order to allow more diversity in PCs? It would be dumb in an RPG if two different characters played in exactly the same way, that wouldn’t be satisfying from a roleplay perspective. So different stats and skills and abilities are put in to differentiate characters. It seems more like the problem is in implementation and follow-through in computer role playing games. But instead of trying to find unique solutions to bring their games closer to table top, some devs decide to not even try at all.

>>723547078
>Chess pieces should all move like pawns because anything else is too complicated for players mind.

>>723545724
Cattle mindset.

>>723544283 (OP)
There is fun if you can make it so casuals can still do well but thats a secret lost to time