Thread 723675351

why are so many JRPGs not actually RPGs but just turn based adventure games with some light rpg mechanics (stats, levels)?

picrel is an example of a proper RPG

>>723675351 (OP)
nice bait but fallout is approaching quest to glory with the rpg to adventure game ratio

>>723675351 (OP)
This lame ass point n click with less gameplay is for fags. Brain dead shit

>>723675351 (OP)

If you knew the history of the genre you'd know that back at the start (1980) western and eastern RPGs were exactly the same with no differences other than language and they simply evolved in different ways. They have the same genes.

>>723675613
>>723675760
>a roleplaying game? does that mean a game that allows for player choice all across the story, gameplay, and character creation?
>no it must mean a linear game where player choice is non-existent!

>>723676140
Op already posted Fallout

>>723676248
sad attempt at trolling. please try again

>>723676140
roleplaying is just using your guys to fight against other guys using stats
choices/consequences are not necessary

>>723675351 (OP)
Turn-based games in general are designed for simpletons, women and bad gamers. The turn-based """combat""" is usually just tacked on to give meaning to the leveling up and collecting of equipment.

Fallout 1 just happens to be one of the very few genuinely good turn-based RPGs. Another one is Divinity: Original Sin (Classic, not the dumbed down Enhanced Edition).

>>723675351 (OP)
All western RPGs are "Play it right or never play it at all"

>>723676680
your stats are one aspect of roleplaying but it depends on how much they matter or how differently they play when you choose different stats

>>723675351 (OP)
I think a lot of JRPGs simply hide most derived statistics, but it's true that many of them only have puddle-deep role-playing mechanics.

>>723676945
>Another one is Divinity: Original Sin (Classic, not the dumbed down Enhanced Edition)

QRD? Was planning on playing this soon, but wasn't sure which version to play.

The name RPG is just a holdover from the genre's tabletop roots.

>>723675351 (OP)
I love how much Fallout makes japfappers seethe, because it just radiates pure American energy, from the art, to the mechanics, the weapons, to the music, the lack of any shonen-magic type destiny horseshit (Yes I know about Fallout 2 and I think that was indeed a weak spot in the story still better than most JRPGS). It's just SO western.

They can't genuinely deny it's a great roleplaying game and a well written world, they can only call it old because they're too retarded to play games that don't spoonfeed them. Kek. (And no, anything after Lonesome Road released is not Fallout. )

>>723677530
it's a shame the phrase has been co-opted by gmod minecraft fucks who think it means playing pretend social games with the NPCs

>>723677623
>(And no, anything after Lonesome Road released is not Fallout. )
unfathomably based

>>723677658
It's a shame that the Fallout fanbase is gay and underaged enough to know about this

What is a role playing game?

>>723677623
>the lack of any shonen-magic type destiny horseshit

No such thing, the word shonen does not refer to any specific style, it's just the Japanese word for boy and is used as a label for media aimed at boys

>>723677623
>Fallout 2
>Cultural references the game.

>>723677362
Larian nerfed the RNG by ensuring that many attacks always connected. This was in response to constant complaints from gamers that their attacks were missing and their party was getting wiped out. They subsequently dumbed down Original Sin in the Enhanced Edition.

>>723677753
a game where player choice matters in the narrative, the gameplay, and the interaction with the world

>>723676386
It's just a shitty fps.

>>723677772
I was referring to the overreliance on the stuff that sets up the archetypical JRPG final boss. You know, dragon ball type shit. The super ultra giga magic super power that the bad guy wasn't supposed to get but does anyways. It's too much, it's so over the top it goes back around to being stupid and faggy. I know that's not every game intuitively but it is a big trope in a lot of Japanese games.

>>723677362
They added a trans character and changed the skin color of one of the main characters.

>mods allow shitty /vrpg/ threads
>the same dumb WRPG vs JRPG bait threads are immediately revived
this is all a template, none of this is original. everything from the daily tales threads to the dungeon crawler threads where some guy has been playing potato flowers in bloom for the first time every day for 4 years straight. the whole genre is cursed

>>723675351 (OP)
>criticize j"""rpg's"""
>all the tranime avatars come out of the woordwork

>>723679268
Wonderful, isn't it? I like watching them sperg.

>>723675351 (OP)
Picrel is better than every jrpg combined multiplied by 1000

>>723679973
The only thing I can give JRPGs over Fallout is that they have girls you can masturbate to.
I would so smash young Tandi, Moira, and Veronica though.

>>723675351 (OP)
Fallout 1 is very linear with almost no side quests and a lot more exploration than a typical rpg. I wouldn't use it as a genre example...if anything it's hnique

>>723680741
it's not linear at all and there are lots of side quests wtf are you smoking

>>723680956
No it isn't dude. You literally have to do the same shit in the same order basically every time you play and if you deviate from the railroad tracks you'll get one shot and raped
>There are lots of side quests
Have you ever played it? Even a single time? Jesus fucking christ. There's like 1 side quest per town. Maybe less. And I'll give you a hint it's not fucking optional if you need to do it to progress

>>723675351 (OP)
there's actually very little difference and you're a dummy to not understand.

>>723681146
great trolling effort but you lied too egregiously. try to be more subtle next time
https://fallout.fandom.com/wiki/Fallout_quests

>>723675351 (OP)
An rpg in the context of games is just a type of game that derives mechanics, either directly or indirectly, from tabletop rpgs, especially dnd.
RPGs were not invented by video games
The first western rpgs like ultima and wizardry didn't have much in the way of dialogue choices or other modern rpg elements.
JRPGs are based on these early western games, they don't take direct inspiration from dnd. Thats why their formula doesn't go beyond what you would see in these early games, they already have a fixed idea of what an rpg is, where as in the western industry many people were trying to emulate more of the rpg elements from tabletop over time. Western developers have an ideal to work towards, whereas japanese devs already have a fixed idea of what the genre is.

>>723679268
funny since you fags love roleplaying as women

postin in the fallout thread

>>723681925
Not bad. Not bad at all.

>>723681704
(You)

>>723675351 (OP)
FO1 kinda sucks as a RPG THOUGH, fr fr. Dialogue options are pretty damn stunted and amateurishly written, stat build variety is minimal beyond guns blazing or sneak thief, most of the skills and perks are lame or outright useless, gear and weapons progress pretty linearily, alternative solutions for quests barely go beyond a binary of "do it quick and rash or go into the next room and find the solution that helps everyone," companions are basically just faceless hired goons, and there's no abilities or tactics that show up in battle, let alone ones based on your weapons and party. It's all just a boring DPS race.

Fallout 2 kinda fixes some of the problems, but FO1 was pretty damn mediocre, and I wouldn't call it a "proper RPG" when it came out as late as 1997. Between all the RPGs that came out before and their alleged experience playing on the tabletop, they absolutely should've/would've known better to put out that amateurish trash.

The only reason FO1 survives with any reverence is because of casual midwits that want to lord over the people playing Bethtrash, only to not realize how much they're outing themselves every time they put this piece of shit on a pedestal.

>>723678891
>The super ultra giga magic super power that the bad guy wasn't supposed to get but does anyways.

Yes, because it would be unsatisfying if he didn't. If there's a super ultra giga magic power in the setting, the bad guy needs to get it so there's narrative payoff

Because for jps rpgs are "hehe numbers go up"

>>723683651
But the narriative payoff is weak and lame if everyone and their grandmother is doing it. How's that satisfying?I'd rather they didn't put any magic in the setting then.

>>723682393
dont reply to yourself

>>723676945
Ironically didn't post a turn-based game, lmayo.

>>723676140
You can’t change the story in Pokemon but having 151 options and six slots is more meaningful than any story decision in Fallout

>>723684067
xD

>>723684096
One of the best games on the Gamecube, the animations had so much soul, modern Pokemon could never

>>723684018
I didn't, I'm not him, he's right. That's how a lot of Japanese media looks to work. There's the way that inspires trying to do a lot of different things and experimentation and shit, and there's the low-tier japanese media way, where things are to be done exclusively by a certain playbook and only barely deviate as some variation of said playbook.
Then there's western and high tier japanese media that says fuck that shit and does whatever it wants.

>>723684025
>taking turns
>this is not turn-based

>>723684018
thats not me tho

>>723684302
Real-time with cooldowns is still real-time.

>>723677623
Nobody really cares about that, it's about the gameplay. Fallout 1&2's gameplay has not aged well at all. The clunky point and click bullshit is excruciating to play. While most jrpgs are braindead simple to pick up and play.

>>723678279
How do you determine how player choice succeeds in the narrative/world in a RPG?

>>723684367
point and click (especially with a dozen hotkeys) doesn't age. you still do that daily on your computer
go play a parser game or menu-heavy console port of said parser game and learn what poorly aged gameplay really is

>>723684234
nta but why are you implying that western media always takes risks or something
JRPGs and WRPGs are different due to different influences. It has nothing to do with risk taking.
The west also makes lots of repetitive slop, see the countless western made metroidvanias and other samey indies. Not to mention COD, fifa, etc.

>>723684234
everything from fallout/bg1 onwards is less and less like an rpg. by dragon age/mass effect the word rpg in the west ceases to have any meaning whatsoever.

>>723684578
Only if you play mainstream slosh.

>>723684615
no, people quite literally think crpgs are supposed to be CYOA novels and that branching narratives is a positive and not an extremely lazy and limited way to design the illusion of choice. the whole genre is bad. just bin it, east and west.

>>723684687
People are wrong, one of the reasons they keep thinking jarpigs are rpgs.

>>723684735
JRPGs are closer to real RPGs than shit that gets passed off by bethesda, cdpr, and from

>>723684367
>Oh lovely, they've sent me a mo-ron.
Uniroinically filtered. If you can't play point and clicks you have ADHD, it's a very intuitive interface if you can click on an icon and see what it does or read basic english. Protip, you can set the game speed in the settings, and double clicking will make your character run in most places.

This is why 1, 2, and Tactics have the superior sectors of the fandom: only non-retards can practice the patience to enjoy them. If you can play pokemon mystery dungeon, you can play Fallout, but you never hear anyone bitch about the former being "too antiquated".

>>723684803
>bethesda, cdpr, and from
Wow, creme of the crop.

>>723684803
>from
Anon...

>>723684735
why are jrpgs not rpgs though
Wizardry and ultima didn't have dialogue choices but they were still considered to be rpgs.

>>723685003
Because they were proto-rpgs, the trailblazers.

>>723684735
>People are wrong, one of the reasons they keep thinking jarpigs are rpgs.
OP is praising fallout right in this thread. The CRPGs that get posted on /v/ are all crap. There's constant KOTOR and Mass Effect threads. There was that guy that made a BG2 thread and talked to himself for months. Theres been an owlcat general every day for years and those are some of the most abhorrent games ever made.

Its all bad. Bin it. I'd rather have nothing than that. Just get rid of it. I don't want to see any of it any more.

>>723685108
Yeah, \v\ has shit taste, I know.

>>723685050
So Dragon Quest, Final Fantasy, and Pokemon are proto rpgs?

>>723685050
they were still rpgs. Also, WRPGs did not have dialogue choices for many years. Its not as though only the first ones lacked them.
and copying them would make jrpgs a part of the genre also
The first rpg wasn't even a video game, it was Dnd

>>723685224
No.

>>723685265
Then what are they?

>>723685543
jarpigs

>>723684367
Fallout's gameplay is fine, the worst part of it is inventory management.

>>723685108
Nobody gives a shit about your autism or what you do or don't want to see.

>>723685781
>Fallout's gameplay is fine
nta but it doesn't look very fun

>>723685841
fuck off back to codex, slav teen, your threads are shit

>>723685781
I wish it had an actual map instead of
>town
>random location with enemy
>random location with treasure
It’s one if the best written games of all time and it deserves a full 3D environment to walk around in like 3 and New Vegas

>>723684367
>clunky
Go back to playing xcom you dumb nigger

>>723685953
I'm American.

>>723686007
Fuck off.

>>723686007
hubs are superior to open worlds with filler

>>723675351 (OP)
I really don't see much difference between these two supposed different genres.

>>723675351 (OP)
Westoids can't even define an RPG because it would hurt Bethesdrones feelings.

>>723686835
even the differences Todd talked about long ago, about how eastern fantasy was way more "out there" is true. western became much less grounded since then too.

>>723675351 (OP)
Picrel is not, Fallout 3 is. Picrel is trying to be one sure but somehow it fails. I say somehow because how do you fail to let the player roleplay? It's so easy to do. But no matter what you do in 1 you feel like the same character every time and you're even railroaded on dialogue options. Only one choice ever lets you progress the quest and everything else aggroes everyone in the area. And the manual even encourages savescumming for this reason.
>inb4 crybabies whining and lying about Fallout 3
That's not even the point of this post now fuck off.

>>723675351 (OP)
JRPGs and WRPGs take from different aspects of the original table top role playing game.
Namely, JPRGs focus more on the specific gameplay of Dungeons and Dragons.
The gameplay of games like Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest come from DnD, and it was those video games which inspired the genre.
Thus 'role playing' takes a backseat to the story of the video game itself.

Many Western RPGs would try to emulate the player choice and consequences.
Eventually WRPGs would abandon the traditional gameplay style in lieu of more modern action game control schemes.

>>723688274
that's not really true until like 2009. there was barely any of that in wrpgs before that. and it's completely illusory in those that are after it.

"player choice" idiots do not understand RPGs. RPGs by definition restrict choice according to your character's stats and abilities.

>>723688274
>The gameplay of games like Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest come from DnD, and it was those video games which inspired the genre.
Yeah, you can see it in how those games treat anything that's not combat.
Hey, how does thief/rogue work in FF again?

>>723688379
a jrpg in 1993 tried it. Phantasy Star 3. 3 generations, two choices per generation and routes completely different. that's way more ambitious than anything I've seen outside Visual Novels.

>>723675351 (OP)
OP here, meant to post this as picrel

>>723688379
choose from a few options and they'll show up differently in the ending. kek

>>723675351 (OP)
You are technically playing roles in JRPGs you just have no choice over those roles

Then again Fallout doesn't have that much role playing either

Literally no such thing as jrpgs

I will never understand why people think "proper" RPGs are possible or even desireable as video games. The entire point of the TTRPG is that you have "unlimited" possibilities, which is literally impossible as a game. You will only ever get a small subset of choices that are ultimately meaningless due to development constraints.

I always love the "morality" choices in wrpgs. You do good and they give you a reward. You kill them and take their stuff and oh, look at that the only thing they had was the same thing they gave out as a reward.

>>723688961
Yeah, they keep on saying it's about player choice that makes a RPG a RPG. Then what about Visual Novels that have player choice and thus unlocks different routes and endings?

>>723689775
When it's a video game you get to play with the ideas and see them externalized rather than having to hold it all in scribbles and shared memory. The ideal is to create a fixed scenario with as many possible unique solutions as possible through mutation of the player character's attributes. What it becomes is often the illusion of choice due to the inherent difficulty of delivering on the premise.

>>723690236
The only time I remember that working out really well was in Baldur's Gate 1, where you could kill Drizzt and you actually got his swords and shit.

>>723688274
>Namely, JPRGs focus more on the specific gameplay of Dungeons and Dragons.
No, they are based on early video game rpgs like ultima, not dnd directly.
Dragon quest 1 was trying to be a beginner friendly, simplified version of ultima for console players.

>>723688961
The ideal western rpg is basically a simulation of a fantasy world, so player choice is a part of that.
Stats limit what you can do, but ideally you still have some choice, just like irl

>>723690904
Pretty common in the Souls games, isn't it? You usually kill that merchant for his robes in Dark Souls 2.

>>723689775
But thats why WRPGs as a genre are interesting, developers have an impossible ideal to strive towards, ie simulating a fantasy world.
Not that we will ever get a truly ambitious AAA rpg at this point

>>723691085
When people think of wrpgs do they actually think about the simulation ones, or the ones that follow in the Bioware mold?

>>723691131
I do, some other people do as well
It depends

>>723691131
I can't actually think of a simulation one

>>723690936
Depends on the developer. With Squaresoft they had people like Kawazu. While games like Ultima IV were a big driving factor, he did dabble in importing western pen and paper games and trying to translate them. So there's no doubt certain people brought in their viewpoints beyond video games. None the less who knows how much Lodoss War impacted games as well.

>>723675613
An RPG is an adventure game with stats. They're pretty much the exact same thing except for the numbers.

>>723691370
wasn't dragon quest the first game though
even if dnd might have influenced them, video games were still the chief inspiration
Thats why jrpgs didn't change over time as much as wrpgs did

>>723691360
skyrim simulates npcs
other rpgs simulate conversations, or other interactions with the environment

>>723691751
Again, showing there is no difference between these supposed genres

Radiata Stories in 2005 did this.

>>723691627
maybe in an abstract sense where the commonality is "problem solving". RPGs are about combat within a turn based ruleset with a statistical basis. Adventure games are about using different items and informations to contextually solve puzzles.

>>723677623
>And no, anything after Lonesome Road released is not Fallout
I finished my third playthrough of FNV recently and tried doing a playthrough of Fallout 4 afterwards. I’d genuinely forgotten just how bad and irredeemable that ‘game’ is. Todd and Besthesda can honestly go and fuck themselves with how they have mishandled the Fallout franchise for the past decade.

>>723684183
Funnily enough we don’t get spinoff Pokemon games anymore. I wonder if GameFreak finally caught on and subsequently freaked-out at the prospect of someone doing Pokemon better than them. Still need to find time for my next Gale of Darkness playthrough soon.

>>723691672
It was the first hit. You still have overhead adventure games with leveling and side scrolling action games with leveling before Dragon Quest. DQI just made it popular. Like Doom. Doom wasn't the first, but it did everything right that made the genre explode in popularity and others wanting to get in on it.

>>723690556
Every game involves player choice, obviously. But the game couldn't simply be just the player's choices otherwise it wouldn't be a game at all. Imagine if chess allowed you to move pieces in anyway you felt like. There would be no challenge.
Different genres of games have different challenges. An action game has a challenge of level design, enemies, and the player's limited moveset to get through these. In a RPG the challenge is the character itself: the character has skills, and no amount of skill from the player is going to make a character without skills to get through the game. Action games, the character the player controls is just a stand in for the player. If you were to beat an action game and replay it shortly after, you would breeze through the game because you still have YOUR skills. But if you were to replay an RPG after beating it you would start again with a shitty character.
>>723690980
>The ideal western rpg is basically a simulation of a fantasy world
So Dwarf Fortress? This ideal is shit for video games because there is only so much that can be programmed and a simulation isn't necessarily fun or challenging. Read a book or lucid dream or something if you want to step into a fantasy world.

>>723691131
>When people think of wrpgs do they actually think about the simulation ones, or the ones that follow in the Bioware mold?
Skyrim-likes.

>>723691867
It probably doesn't simulate conversations though, or things like stealth, pick pocketing, etc
I doubt it gives you the freedom to commit crimes and actually get caught by the police, etc.

>>723692452
yikes, so 3 games?

My definition can be summed up to 4 points:
>1) relies on avatar strength (stats) over player skill,
>2) has a persistent game world and a persistent progress system,
>3) has a level of deliberate non-cosmetic customizability for avatar characters, and
>4) has a defined overarching goal/end state.

Each point might need some elaboration so:
>1) ARPGs are not RPGs. A Liger is not a Lion in the sense that you can't claim that Lions have stripes because Ligers have them. Saying that stripes makes the Liger more of Lion is retarded.
>RPGs aren't action games. Most older CRPGs that try to have a real time system often have to add a mechanic that cripples the action elements. The main contention is the "focus" aspect which is extremely subjective. MMORPGs have their own set of limitations similar to transition from P&P RPGs to CRPGs thus it justifies the move to real time.
>2) RPGs are in the Adventure genre spectrum and 1 & 2 are key features of it.
>3) CRPGs are based on the Pen & Paper RPGs like D&D and GURPS. 2 & 3 are part of that.
>4) Games like Rim World or Dwarf Fortress are more like RPG systems without an campaign. RPGs are built on the concept of the "Quest". This is main thing that differentiates it from war games. Also, RPGs aren't supposed to last forever. They aren't life sims.

>>723692259
>So Dwarf Fortress?
dwarf fortress isn't an rpg, it doesn't involve being a single person. I haven't played the game, but it probably doesn't have quests or a story either.
Its also visually not very immersive.
When i say simulation, i don't necessarily mean simulating every last thing. Just enough to give the impression of a living breathing world.

>>723692625
>>723692663
You'll cowards don't even adventure mode

>>723692146
>You still have overhead adventure games with leveling and side scrolling action games with leveling before Dragon Quest.
what are these games you are talking about
As far as i know dq was the first jrpg

>>723692483
yes, thieving is one divergence. it's a combat action usually.

I don't know what you mean by "simulate conversations" though. Can you explain what you mean?

I think getting caught for crimes is also rare in wrpgs.

>>723692864
simulating conversations means dialogue options
>it's a combat action usually.
Thats a key difference between jrpgs and wrpgs
Wrpgs involve alot of environmental interactions, skill checks, etc happening outside of combat. Basically, stats matter outside of combat, whereas in jrpgs they mostly matter in combat only
>I think getting caught for crimes is also rare in wrpgs.
skyrim, and cyberpunk both have the police coming after you if you commit crimes.
In divinity OS people try to come after you themselves if you steal.
Also, radiata stories is just one game, we are talking in general terms here.
Generally, jrpgs have less simulation elements. And stats typically don't matter out of combat

>>723692710
Xanadu and Hylide came out before DQ, and there's still more RPGs from Japan that came out before them. I think there's a lot we're missing since we aren't Japanese and didnt grow up during that time frame. The fact that an arcade game like Tower of Druaga was only a phenomenon in Japan, we might not fully understand how Japanese media influenced one another.

>>723692663
>dwarf fortress isn't an rpg
It has adventure mode.
>it doesn't involve being a single person.
In adv. mode you can control one character or a party. Also is every RPG where you control a party not a RPG? Might and Magic isn't a RPG series? What the fuck would it be then?
>Its also visually not very immersive.
What does that have to do with anything?

>>723693262
>It has adventure mode.
i haven't played it, but the game probably doesn't have a story / main quest either
>What does that have to do with anything?
Simulating a fantasy world would also mean simulating it on an aesthetic level. Also, there are things you can't simulate without a 3d environment.

>>723693025
>Also, radiata stories is just one game, we are talking in general terms here.
true, there are more, such as some of the Atelier games and I think Rune Factory, but I'll admit it's not as common

>>723693569
I mean for a long time wasn't it just Bethesda, CDPR and the Gothic games simulating npc schedules.

Choices aren't real dumbasses What fucking decade is it?
You could be forgiven buying into the magic trick when you were 13, but now? Surely you've realized "narrative choice and consequence" for the bullshit shell game it is, right?

>>723675351 (OP)
JRPGs have always been glorified visual novels.

>>723694654
Exactly this. I was enamored with RPGs until I hit puberty and realized this. It's just lies, marketing, PR and retarded fan hype.
Choices in muh RPGs are just Excel sheets with bad writing.
Go read books for your stories and play boomer shooters for your vidya.

>>723677038
this. most jrpgs lack choice but atleast they are fun to play. can't say the same about most wrpgs. i will happily do yearly playthroughs of the first dragon quest but can't see myself playing the original fallout. it was so boring.

>>723675351 (OP)
Jarpigs are way too restrictive and filled with dumb anime shit and pisseasy gameplay for toddlers for most people to enjoy.

>>723684367
>The clunky point and click bullshit is excruciating to play.
What the fuck am I reading? I played FO1 for the first time after Fallout 3 came out and it was simple and fun to play.