Thread 724508093

Explain to me why RTS is dead without sounding like a retard.

Nobody plays it

Skill floor too high

Games too long

>>724508093 (OP)
rts is dead

>>724508093 (OP)
People changed interests. Same reason why you don't see arena fps or arcade racing games anymore.

>>724508093 (OP)
It's boring. It's too in the middle of being an action game and being a turn based game, thus pleases very few people.

>>724508093 (OP)
Casuals can't into multiplayer because of the cliff you need to climb to start playing them. Hardcore fags just stick to Starcraft.

Explain to me why you are posting tranime outside of >>>/a/

>>724508093 (OP)
makes noobs cry

>>724508093 (OP)
The audience moved onto better games. Either more competitive genres or more fun ones.

>>724508453
Do you see the mods doing anything about it?

>>724508435
>try starcraft 2
>friend decides me and another guy "ARE GONNA LEARN TODAY" and boxes us into our bases with some gay turret shit

>>724508093 (OP)
no training mode to efficiently practice build orders in

The fun was optimized out.
Most RTS players were campaign and skirmish vs cpu enjoyers. What the industry heard was "We want more competitive esport autism" which was opposite of the truth.

Publishers wanted Brood War money and exposure.
Since they couldn't have that they just abandoned rts.

huuuuurrrr duurrrrrr
eerrrrrrrrrrrr aaa
brbbbbbarrr
*drools on the floor*

>>724508093 (OP)
No point in calling it strategy when it boils down to executing your meta build order faster than your opponent and win

>>724508701
>Most RTS players were campaign
sim city players still keep parroting this like they werent the minority

>>724508093 (OP)
>tranime

>>724508776
Why is your genre dead if the "minority" was the group that abandoned it?

>>724508701
Fact check: trueeee

>>724508750
Sometimes I feel like people who bitch about build orders don't actually know what they are. Like what would you do if the opponent did something different? Would you just say well fuck i better keep following my build nope cant adapt?

>>724508741
This

>>724508886
Same reason call of duty and fortnite are the most popular games

>>724508093 (OP)
Old stuff good.
New stuff not better.

>without sounding like a retard.
Grug questions get Grug answers.

>>724508903
Sometimes I feel like people who think they're okay don't understand what they are.

>>724508093 (OP)
turn based it better, because it rewards the player who makes better strategic decisions rather than the player who can press buttons faster

>>724508093 (OP)
Population changed. RTS reward multitasking massively, which is not a skill trained in today's "0.5 second attention span" media world.
Also the genre birthed a lot of derivative genres that simplify it, so if you like some specific aspect of RTS you don't have to "force" yourself anymore to take the whole package.

>>724509183
How does a time limit make decisions not strategic?

>>724508093 (OP)
People liked cool campaigns and custom games ala Warcraft 3, but for some reason every dev went all in on Brood War 10,000 APM turbo autistic esports set ups instead and the genre never recovered just like arena shooters. Just look at the shit heaps still trying, they all completely lack any kind of narrative or aesthetic, it's all just generic esports drivel.

When is sc3? Is sc2 still alive somehow?

>>724508093 (OP)
cause people like >>724509183 hear the word APM and think it will magically make them succeed

>>724509317
That's not what happened to arena shooters. Arena shooters died because UT3 and Quake 4 were much worse than their predecessors and they were the first of their kind for that console gen. UT3 and Q4 leaned well away from esports compared to UT2k4 and Q3.

>>724508903
>what if the opponent does something off-meta
Then they lose faster due to the inherent inefficiency of their stategy

>>724508093 (OP)
It's too difficult and demanding, modern gamers are simultaneously married to their MMR numbers and ratings while at the same time being too bitch made to admit to themselves when they lose because they play poorly and need to improve.

>>724508903
>people who bitch about build orders don't actually know what they are
Same about APM.
... and 99% of all criticism I read in those type of thread.
You can tell it's from someone who *at best* launched SC/WCIII once, jumped directly in multi, got crushed because he didn't even know what building does what, and then decided the genre was bullshit.
At worst they clearly never even tried an RTS once and are just parroting some jewtube/reddit opinion.

>>724509551
Meta only works against common strategies. If they are not going for that strategy, sticking to your 1 plan is not going to help you.

>>724508903
I hate to break it to you but that's what the game up to Diamond looks like. You're rewarded for grinding out one strategy to perfection and eating losses when it's inappropriate more than you are learning a lot of them.

>>724508093 (OP)
People don't actually want to play RTS, they just want to play a city builder.

>>724508093 (OP)
BW became the first real esports so everyone wanted to cash in on it. Since BW is still the only real esport devs keep thinking that they have a chance at it becoming big if they cater to try hard esport fagots.

>>724509764
thanks now give me an apple pie recipe

>>724508093 (OP)
Consoles

>>724509183
Your point is retarded, however I genuily think people should start with turn-based stuff, if only to get their brain warped around having to juggle economy/exploration/combat/etc.
I don't think I would have liked C&C and WCII a quarter as much if I hadn't lost my strategy virginity with HoMM1.

>>724508093 (OP)
because the average IQ has been steadily decreasing

>>724509764
>* Intense Multitasking and Speed: Classic RTS games demand a high level of simultaneous micromanagement (controlling individual unit actions) and macromanagement (managing economy, base building, and production) at a very fast pace. This is often measured in Actions Per Minute (APM), which can be daunting and frustrating for casual or new players.
Bullshit, of course.
Hey, what was your APM during the first C&C? How about Dune 2? How did you measure it when WC2 dropped?

>>724509623
The common strategies are common because they are the most efficient. The strategies that do not become common fail to do so because of their inherent flaws. Choosing such a strategy might raise an eyebrow but by definition means introducing unnecessary flaws into your strategy.

RTSes aren't like actual war where the technology is constantly improving and you can potentially blindside an enemy with something unexpected. Past a certain point the community will have solved optimal progression in a match and from that point on only execution of those solved strategies matters.

>>724508970
Because RTS is a PC only genre and a large portion of the vidya market is console based? Causing developers to neglect RTS enjoyers as they pursue ever increasing profits?

>>724508093 (OP)
Because people are stupid fucking idiots and focus on multiplayer. Multiplayer is the optional dessert to the main course that should be a fun, varied single player campaign. And when they do do a single player campaign it is hyper-autistic shit that borrows more from RTT or grand strategy than RTS.

>>724508093 (OP)
It got too competitive.
RTS is fun when it's casual.

>>724508093 (OP)
If you want long-term strategy and resource management then strategy and civ-building games are better.
If you like small tactics and constant clicking then MOBAs are better.
If you want to go slow and build a town then city builders are better.

>>724509976
or you know, you could be aware of the strategies and adapt. but nope! build order! cant stray from the build order! aahhh i wish i could counter this shit i just scouted by my build order just doesnt account for it

>>724508093 (OP)
What happened is that League of Legends started throwing its weight and money around. LOL requires significantly less APM, far far less micro skills, significantly less build + timing knowledge, and is overall far easier to pick up and master than Starcraft. Moreover, at the time, SC2 wasn't exactly in the greatest state, just generally being unfun to play (unless you laddered to the point where the game's fun actually kicks in, super late into the ranks). SC2 didn't really have alternate modes to just fuck around in, it was just endless laddering. Endless fucking laddering. Even soulless gooks still want to cut loose in between sessions. So naturally, more and more SK gooks would flock to LOL.

If the game is easier to play, and easier to make more money in, then why even play starcraft?

Why starcraft? Its the biggest RTS on the market. Red Alert is pretty much dead after the mobile game flopped. DOW is really just played because of the funny haha STEHL RAYNE acting, it had horrid balancing. Company of Heroes never had the makings of a varsity athlete if you know what I mean. Beyond that, what's actually there in RTS?

>>724509976
>Past a certain point the community will have solved optimal progression in a match and from that point on only execution of those solved strategies matters.
I would like to point out that this still hasn't happened with FAF or BAR.

>>724510049
You have no idea what you're talking about. A strategy that can't adapt like you're claiming wouldn't become a meta strategy. Do you even play RTSes?

>>724508093 (OP)
Newer RTS games aren't as good as older ones and at times are missing some of the most basic of all commands or parts of units/combat
Esports ruined the focus of it
Playerbase of these sorts of games was split among all the ASSFAGGOTS games because no good RTS to keep them around
Lack of basebuilding in a lot of games
Lack of unit and/or faction diversity
Lack of co-op that is more than just tacked on skirmish tier garbage usually only enabled for very specific maps

There's a reason SupCom is still one of the best around, but it has become very niche for actual players that it's mostly just tourneyfag groups. Only other similar games would probably be war games which keep getting shafted by an initially good game that suddenly becomes trash shortly after because the devs lose their brain at release

>>724510050
Koreans also ruined League by making Riot shit it up with execution heavy garbage because they are obsessed with epic plays. Fuck Korea, legitimately the shittiest tastes possible in gaming.

>>724508093 (OP)
Is a boring genre.

>>724510049
Okay, so you don't know what a build order is or how to use it. Got it.

>>724508093 (OP)
too annoying to be fun. Micromanaging is like herding cats yet it takes priority over strategic decision making. sub genres that prioritise strategy and remove micromanaging took off.

>>724508093 (OP)
RTS is boring

>>724508093 (OP)
I only liked Warcraft 3 as an RTS because of creep and shops. It felt like the arenas you were fighting in were lived places. In Starcraft 2, they feel so empty, there's nothing that prevents you from very rapidly just building 10 bases across the map beyond the fact that it's not viable to do so.

>>724508093 (OP)
I like RTS but hate playing it

>>724508893
>gookclicking
kek, what the fuck. I mean I get what it is, but I've never heard of that.

>>724510282
Literally all you have to do is click a different build button. What do you mean you can't fucking adapt?

Scares casuals

>>724510907
post winnings/liquipedia

>>724509498
UT3 and Q4 came out at a time when major publishers were trying to write PC off entirely as a dead platform, no wonder they came out like shit.

>>724509574
You'll understand when you finally play an RTS where the interface is designed to help you instead of hinder you.

>>724511117
I don't know what that means. Are you asking for esports winnings?

>>724511124
Yeah. It was consolitis too. Fucking sucked.

>>724508824
A good campaign with an engaging storyline, secret/optional missions, and multiple ways to beat missions (and beating them or losing them in a certain way unlocks optional/secret missions) is a good way to ensure people play RTS. Add to it a functional skirmish and multiplayer and you have a game that will be played for atleast 10 years (if not 20 or even 30). And stuff like general's challenge and/or such puzzles would be even better.

a good RTS game can be controlled entirely with the mouse

Age of Empires, C&C, Warcraft and Starcraft are so prolific that outside of those games and the games that tried to use them as a design blueprint to various levels of success drowned the genre in so much fail and "same" that people stopped trying to copy and simultaneously stopped innovating.

In terms of campaign value, Blizzard first introduced mission objectives being more than "Go here/Wipe the enemy" or at least had dressed them up as more and refined it over the decades leading up to the last good game they ever released- Starcraft 2.

>>724511117
>>724511168
>rts esport enthusiasts make the same amount of money as our janitorial staff

>>724508093 (OP)
Boring to play, boring to watch. Macros ruined the genre by making it brainless to play which makes it boring, people want to watch cool battles not a chink slamming the camera between 30 different positions per second

>>724511573
Unironically true. It didn't ruin RTS, but no, Starcraft is not entertaining to watch, it is fucking retarded to watch.

>>724508776
Warcraft 3 was the last RTS with an organic esports scene as niche as it may have been and the last RTS before tournament level play faggotry started to be intensely pushed and in Overwatch and Starcraft's case heavily invested into.

Fightan games and teamwork intensive shooters are infinitely more readable and enjoyable to watch than APM slop

>>724508453
anime website go cry

>>724511573
I enjoy watching T90's community matches for AoE2 because they actually do fun gimmicks instead of 1v1 meta sweatfests.

>>724511168
Casual LMAO
>Janitor application acceptance emails are being sent out. Please remember to check your spam box!

>>724509574
But anon, WC3 can be won with low APM and smart plays reliably. Playing orcs against nelves isn't an instant GG whereas in many cases with Starcraft 2 its almost like a chess bot in the sense the game is over three minutes in pending on build order efficiency 9/10 times.

>>724511867
>WC3 can be won with low APM and smart plays reliably.
[citation needed]

>>724511485
>>724511821
You gotta get off the computer man you're losing it
>inb4 just pretending

>>724511573
>boring to watch
I used to love watching brood war. But can't watch it anymore. Macro build order slop for 15 minutes, skirmish and lose by 10 supply, GG. every game

>>724511908
I chose orcs vs nelves for what's outside of hero play some of the most intensive APM differences in the entire game in the sense Nelves can singlehandedly rape the map with a warden and map knowledge/quick denial while orcs are more of an encroaching force with a cunt blade master doing the surgery to make them work

>>724511950
>>724510907
you sound scared, casual

>>724512039
Define 'low APM'

>>724512140
Sub 40 APM. There ain't that much going on relative to the murderblob armies of SC2 that can wipe eachother in seconds

>>724512039
>blade master
I fucking hate the meta of
>go stealth kill workers constantly and be a nuisance five seconds in
It's such a typical rat move because most of the time you know there's no real counter to it until later. Sparks the same type of play as the fags who miss mining minerals by half a second and quit.

>Watching BAR 1v1 pro league
>HuK casting the match out of nowhere
What the fuck man, I hadn't heard that name in like a decade.

>>724508093 (OP)
Because nobody cares about Esports and that's all they focus on.

>>724508093 (OP)
It is hard to play.
>>724511774
AoE2 is good since it emphasizes the campaigns, but it sucks to see strategically skilled players like DauT and Jon Slow constantly filtered due to their low APM.

>>724512286
In hindsight maybe nelves weren't the fairest lineup to throw orcs against when I deliberately fuck their econ to stop what they become mid to late game

>>724508093 (OP)
Video games with high skill ceilings are unpopular because high skill players are unbeatable

>>724512739
Untrue. Games with a high skill ceiling and a dogshit low skill floor without a smooth transition are.

>>724512739
Is Homeworld a high skill ceiling game?

>>724512914
...can't you pause in that game? Pause button changes the entire dynamic of the game.

>>724513125
You can pause in pretty much every rts.

>>724509307
It doesn't. But if the time limit overwhelms strategy for 90% of the players, you have a problem. Boxing is a sport with a good element of strategy but you would be a massive retard to call it a strategy game because it doesn't matter how fast you're outthinking the other guy if you can't move fast enough.

>>724512739
dont play with them retard. ranks exist for a reason, nobody is forcing you to be good

>>724508093 (OP)
too much thinking but not enough thinking that it satisfies a niche like grand strategy

>>724508618
Explain to me why did you post ntr

>>724508701
you talks as if we are getting new releases on a regular basis and that they all try to be the next starcraft 2.
bro, what the industry saw is that people don't want to buy rts games so they stopped making them.
The esport side of RTS is also barelly existant, its just starcraft 2 and age of empires 2: a 15 and a 25 year old game.

>>724513335
>smurfs

>>724508093 (OP)
Because these computers are kicking my ass

>>724508093 (OP)
Because no one made a good RTS in years.
Simple.

I recently downloaded Age of Mythology to try out the genre again since I remember playing Empire Earth 2 when I was a child. I don't hate it but thus far (10th part of Campaign 1) it all feels the same. Just hole up in your base until you max out your army and steamroll everything. Maybe I picked a casual game because there's no real strategy involved bar me having strategically happy thoughts so I don't chimp out over the terrible AI.
What the fuck is this captcha?

>>724508093 (OP)
Because it evolved into an esports genre, so normal gamers just want to watch the pros, not play the game themselves.

>>724508093 (OP)
RTS ain't dead. Tempest Rising is actually pretty decent. But I'm waiting for this one personally.

>>724508093 (OP)
Most "gamers" are too retarded now

>>724514076
>losing as men
lmao
>build cavalry and pikes
>win because you can either kite or counter everything in the game

>>724516029
pedojanny's favourite

>>724515386
If a genre hasn’t gotten a masterpiece in a decade it’s dead. Closest is debatably Generals 22 years ago.
Other dead genres: simulators (plane and submarine), MMORPGs, arcade racers

It's simple. Not a single developer knows how to make a good tutorial. RTS skill levels have increased a MASSIVE amount ever since the "Golden Age of RTS". People know how to actually play the game now. And I don't just mean in a meta sense about build orders, timed attacks, counters and all of that.

RTS players now know how to efficiently hotkey their buildings and harass an enemy base, WHILE maneuvering their main army in relation to the enemy main army AND building more reinforcements and researching upgrades WITHOUT ever moving their screen back to their main base, except for when they use the "save camera location" feature to look at it for one second to place a new building and then go back to their units hotkeys to instantly move their camera back.

As a responsible developer you should teach RTS players how to play like this and add additional micromanagement-saving features. You NEED TO do this. It's your responsibility. It's unfair for new and veteran RTS players, if new players or old troons, who never learned it, don't have that skill. I remember playing Starcraft 2 Pro tutorials, where you had to continually control a probe and move it around a pylon, which is a circular movement and just enough to slow down it's faster pursuer, while doing other tasks to train multitasking and micro. You need to actively introduce players to this. In fact you should just forbid all players from ever being able to click on unit abilities to bruteforce a learning process.

>>724508093 (OP)
RTS has always been fairly niche, the weird coincidence StarCraft became the national sport of korea aside. The rest of the market grew while RTS didn't, games are more expensive now and it doesn't make sense for big studios to make them.
RTS games were solved relatively early, the idea of RTS genre is relatively rigid and there's not much space to innovate without going into a different genre so it stayed the same way. Which is why everyone is still playing AoE2, many older games are good enough to not feel outdated even when they didn't get rereleases.
Players filtered out into more specialized genres that fulfilled their needs more. RTT, MOBAs, grand strategy, total war, colony builders.

Why is someone deleting like 50 posts

>>724516820
https://arch.b4k.dev/v/search/image/BFHhLrMmrcZP2aonqr-_uQ/

>>724517716
Off topic tranimeshit got deleted.

>>724517806
>autisticallly posts an archive of my post history with no further comment
okay and?

>>724510246
That's mostly because those games are niche within a niche and aren't competitive enough.
BAR is mostly played in 8v8 and even then still has build orders and map specific meta because your opening moves are going to be mostly the same.
Though I think BAR does have some elements that help. Random wind and reclaim mean that resource gain is less predictable and you can't build your strat entirely around calculating it exactly because you might gain a bunch from a good engagement and know when to transition.

>>724516398
Development costs probably made more niche genres less viable in the market and also gaming has been somewhat stagnant for a while now. There's just no new development to justify making a new one that would be exactly the same with slightly better graphics.

>>724518450
No it's because of reclaim and a much wider pool of options at any given time.

>>724521308
It's almost like I mentioned that.

>>724524236
I don't mean reclaim from wrecks. That's a separate factor. I mean reclaim from your own units and buildings. I'm not buying that the game would suddenly become rote and about banging out a premade strategy faster with more competition because the game already has former RTS pros playing it.

>>724508093 (OP)
Turn based is better

women don't like RTS and they run 100% of companies now

>>724516820
Tutorials don't matter. If your game needs a tutorial for players to understand it in 2025, then it will never be anything other than extremely niche. It doesn't matter how comprehensive or well done the tutorial is, for the overwhelming majority of new players if they can't just click play and go they'll just quit. It's depressing, but it is what it is.

>>724508093 (OP)
too slow to start
i dont want to spend 15-20 minutes to get the first wave of units up and running
also i dont wanna fuck around as people come up with new retarded tactics every day like having a turret in the right spot for an extreme advantage

slow start
too many variables to worry about

>>724508093 (OP)
EA killed it in spite when the fanbase rejected their MTX infested offering.

As a noob to these games I just want to build up shit first, but in PvP I can't because the other player will use some optimal rush strategy and the game is over before anything interesting can happen

>>724508893
>building cool, symmetrical bases with one building each.

Airmech is still kicking around.
I think this is one of the last good rts games.

>>724510795
>destroys youre brand new flagship logitech mice in 2 weeks

>>724508093 (OP)
Its not the quality of the games or the skillset of the players because even casual rts isnt popular

The answer is this generation doesnt care for the fantasy of controlling an army, its like how culturally japan hates fps even though nothing is wrong with fps in principle