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Anonymous No.725192171 [Report] >>725192243 >>725192391 >>725192435 >>725192521 >>725192580 >>725192802 >>725192953 >>725193251 >>725193316 >>725193671 >>725194346 >>725195054 >>725195469 >>725195785 >>725195892 >>725196181 >>725196283 >>725196456 >>725196490 >>725196491 >>725196909 >>725197042 >>725197734 >>725197749 >>725198170 >>725198360 >>725199530 >>725200296
How do you solve this problem of video game storytelling?
Anonymous No.725192243 [Report] >>725192456
>>725192171 (OP)
dont shoot that guy
Anonymous No.725192323 [Report] >>725194351 >>725195194
name 3 (three) games that does that
Anonymous No.725192328 [Report] >>725192427 >>725192489 >>725192556
what does white korra smell like?
Anonymous No.725192391 [Report] >>725192645 >>725193663 >>725194608
>>725192171 (OP)
Stop viewing yourself as the protagonist. Spec Ops never calls you evil.
Anonymous No.725192426 [Report]
I want to have sex with white korra
Anonymous No.725192427 [Report] >>725198424
>>725192328
She... doesn't she's a fictional character??
Anonymous No.725192435 [Report] >>725193128
>>725192171 (OP)
/v/ has been seething over this game for like 12 years.
Anonymous No.725192456 [Report] >>725192642 >>725193036 >>725193786 >>725193867 >>725194561 >>725197989
>>725192243
>don't shoot the guy
>you can't advance the plot/story
hahaha
Anonymous No.725192489 [Report]
>>725192328
My semen
Anonymous No.725192521 [Report]
>>725192171 (OP)
Stop hiring pretentious college drop outs who couldn't make it into Hollywood?
Anonymous No.725192556 [Report] >>725195283
>>725192328
Why don't you buy a going into webcomics machine and find out?
Anonymous No.725192580 [Report]
>>725192171 (OP)
Iwtfwk
Anonymous No.725192608 [Report]
Did somebody say "I want to fuck white Korra"?
Anonymous No.725192642 [Report] >>725193974 >>725202000
>>725192456
I fucking hate that shit
Anonymous No.725192645 [Report]
>>725192391
Except it does
Anonymous No.725192650 [Report] >>725192825
Anonymous No.725192782 [Report] >>725192873 >>725193047 >>725193835 >>725195345
Why are water tribe women so hot?

It's like India the men are ugly as hell but the women look beautiful.
Anonymous No.725192802 [Report]
>>725192171 (OP)
Undertale solved this by letting you choose what you do. Unironically a turn-based rpg made by one dude understands this better than a game made by a studio
Anonymous No.725192825 [Report] >>725192964 >>725193437 >>725193639 >>725193753 >>725194098
>>725192650
I am morbidly curious about the new Avatar season. I heard the premise is that it takes place long after the book of Korra, and she was such a fuck up that everybody hates the Avatar
Anonymous No.725192873 [Report]
>>725192782
>It's like India the men are ugly as hell but the women look beautiful.
6/10 too on the nose, had a chuckle tho
Anonymous No.725192953 [Report]
>>725192171 (OP)
You did it just because they told you to, even though you know it's wrong. The possibility of not doing it never crossed your mind. YOU ARE A BAD PERSON.
Anonymous No.725192964 [Report] >>725199535
>>725192825
Little girl protag is a dark jeeta with a prosthetic leg and the male co-lead is rumored to be gay. For all the faults of Korra’s show, it still had a semblance of the Avatar identity (at least in the first season). This new show is “Avatar in name only.”
Anonymous No.725193036 [Report] >>725196884
>>725192456
>I don't want to do this thing.
Then don't.
>But I want to see the rest of the story.
Ok then do it.
>Why is the game saying it's bad to do the thing I didn't want to do?!?!?!
Probably for the same reason you didn't want to do it.
Anonymous No.725193037 [Report]
>Mass-murdering outlaw dies of tuberculosis
>You're supposed to feel very sad about it
Anonymous No.725193047 [Report]
>>725192782
Ignoring your bait in the second part
Water tribe women are hot because they have white features, straight hair and blue eyes and brown skin with none of the downsides
Anonymous No.725193096 [Report]
I LIKED SPEC OPS THE LINE
I ADMIT IT
Anonymous No.725193128 [Report] >>725193663 >>725194608 >>725194949
>>725192435
People who are too emotionally immature to distance themselves from their avatar are weird.
Anonymous No.725193220 [Report]
Just don't buy and play the game
Anonymous No.725193251 [Report] >>725196326 >>725197018 >>725197997
>>725192171 (OP)
you make it so the player has an actual choice in the matter, and only bash on the player when they go out of their way to hunt down every last enemy
Anonymous No.725193316 [Report] >>725193426 >>725193618
>>725192171 (OP)
I never understood this issue about Spec Ops or TLOU or whatever. The character is not you. Any naughty things they do are their actions, not yours. Any telling off the character receives is towards the character, not you.

Unless you're playing an RPG where the character is a self-insert there's no reason to view a characters (narrative) actions as as if they were your own.
Anonymous No.725193426 [Report] >>725193778
>>725193316
A lot of people have extremely fragile egos and channel any person they associate with being reprimanded as criticism towards themselves. Sometimes because the criticism would also apply to them and they can't take some mild criticism, or because they're autistic and get mad they're being "criticized" for something they would never do.
Anonymous No.725193437 [Report] >>725193853
>>725192825
I haven't watched Korra, but weren't they like fully in the industrial era at that time?
Anonymous No.725193446 [Report] >>725193538
Kojima just let's you blast quiets head off lmao
Anonymous No.725193538 [Report]
>>725193446
And I don't feel bad since I'm not Venom Snake.
Anonymous No.725193618 [Report] >>725193658 >>725195047 >>725196728
>>725193316
>The character is not you. Any naughty things they do are their actions, not y-
Anonymous No.725193639 [Report]
>>725192825
Anything past the original series is shit and should've never been made, SOME episodes from season 2 are fine but they aren't nearly enough to counter Korra being such an absolutely disgusting piece of shit protagonist
Anonymous No.725193658 [Report]
>>725193618
why does the writer act like he knows so much
Anonymous No.725193663 [Report] >>725193778 >>725193952 >>725196728
>>725192391
>>725193128
You faggots are so disingeneous. Spec Ops the Line isn't simply a game about a villain protagonist. The game is specifically being meta and challenging the PLAYER themselves on their views on violence in video-games. Which isn't a bad idea in and of itself (the Undertale genocide route takes the idea and actually does it well), but it does it in the most shallow way possible. I don't even know why I'm bothering though, you bad faith faggots are just gonna strawman and divert, if you ever reply
Anonymous No.725193671 [Report]
>>725192171 (OP)
Rape.
Anonymous No.725193712 [Report]
I don't really want to fuck White Korra.
Anonymous No.725193753 [Report]
>>725192825
>netflix
>jeet girl
>fag companion
>ugly different art style
that thing is an abomination on the level of the live action tv show. I really wish they would give the IP a rest they literally cant do anything good with it past Atla. Even the darn comics are complete dogshit that shit ont he worldbuilding.
Anonymous No.725193767 [Report] >>725193842
Ok, but who did buy military action shooter game at the peak of the military action shooter craze to NOT shoot at that guy?
The game blames walker for everything, not just the bombing sequence
Anonymous No.725193778 [Report] >>725193914
>>725193663
See
>>725193426
Anonymous No.725193786 [Report]
>>725192456
Then I just exit the game and consider that as me beating the game.
Anonymous No.725193835 [Report] >>725194620
>>725192782
Fucking dumb street shitter, I hope that China nukes your country
Anonymous No.725193842 [Report] >>725194090
>>725193767
>if you buy a game to shoot at terrorists, that means you want to kill innocent children with white phosphorous
Anonymous No.725193853 [Report]
>>725193437
Yeah, with radios, and assembly lines and everything and them using the electricity from fire benders as energy source, so Korra fucked up the human world by merging it with the spiritual world, maybe that did a hard rest.
Anonymous No.725193867 [Report]
>>725192456
BuT tHaTs ThE pOiNt AnOn!
A gOoD pErSoN wOuLdN't WaNt To PlAy
Anonymous No.725193914 [Report] >>725194135
>>725193778
>strawmanning and diverting
Yep
Anonymous No.725193952 [Report] >>725194108 >>725194120 >>725195238
>>725193663
>Yells "bad faith" over and over while refusing to actually discuss.
lol

If you don't share any of the opinions, it's not challenging you in any way. If you hold some of the opinions or got tricked, it gives you an opportunity to ask yourself why. If you were fully on board or you're really defensive, you probably sperg out.

Be real. You want the choice to opt out so you don't have to be confronted.
Anonymous No.725193974 [Report] >>725194401
>>725192642
>Anon you have to use the chemical weapons its the only way to defeat the enemy.
>*visibly sweating* No anon what are you doing? You can't just shoot them!
>*developer violently shitting his pants* LOOK WE'RE SPAWNING INFINITE WAVES OF SNIPERS AND THERE IS NO PATH FORWARD YOU HAVE NO OTHER WAY TO PROGRESS BECAUSE THAT'S HOW WE SCRIPTED IT
>Heh, you piece of shit YOU killed all those civilians, what a twist!
Anonymous No.725193975 [Report]
WHITE KORRA SEX
Anonymous No.725194090 [Report]
>>725193842
The game isnt just about that scene. At every turn its going deeper into killing to be a hero of some heroic tale, its about that. Even the first fight where they werent supposed to fight and just recon the place
Anonymous No.725194098 [Report]
>>725192825
I just want them to bring back the connection with the previous avatars, I ended up liking Korra at the end but I'll never forgive their retarded decision of severing that connection, that was pure gold for lore and content not just for future avatars but the previous ones. Now it is going to be woke and preachy as fuck but that's another topic.
Anonymous No.725194108 [Report] >>725194548
>>725193952
>You want the choice to opt out so you don't have to be confronted on the fact that, deep down, you WANTED to smear white phosphorous over all of those children
Wow, how did you know? That really makes me think
Anonymous No.725194120 [Report] >>725194342 >>725194935
>>725193952
NTA but Spec Ops never confronts the player. Both you and the anon you're replying to didn't play the game.
Anonymous No.725194135 [Report] >>725194332
>>725193914
>Laying out my opinion of why people react this way with some light ribbing is "strawmanning."
>But saying "nope, incorrect, and ANYONE who disagrees is LYING" is peak intellectual honesty.
Who do you think you're fooling, dude? At least try.
Anonymous No.725194332 [Report] >>725194413 >>725194764
>>725194135
You're saying that anyone who might have legitimate criticisms with the story of Spec Ops the Line simply MUST have extremely fragile egos and be autistic, there's simply no other explanation for how they may not like your favorite game. Yeah, that's the textbook definition of strawmanning, there is zero good faith in your "argument". You're pretty much just trolling
Anonymous No.725194342 [Report]
>>725194120
If you're a hyper literal autist, yeah. it doesnt sit you down in a chair, take a deel breath, sigh, and say "Well champ...you just did some war crimes. Anything to say for yourself?" It does make it clear Walker is descending deeper into rationalization and commiting war crimes and that this is bad, which is the part that's confronting you.

Like seriously, don't be a fucking pedant.
Anonymous No.725194346 [Report] >>725194397 >>725195472
>>725192171 (OP)
Give the player freedom.
>see that guy? you can kill him
>see that girl? you can rape her
It's just a sandbox, just a video game, the characters are not real. You're not a bad person for wanting to rape your way through it :)
Anonymous No.725194351 [Report]
>>725192323
Spec Ops The Line, Fuga Melodies of Steel, Jackie Chan.
Anonymous No.725194397 [Report] >>725194773
>>725194346
See that mountain?
Anonymous No.725194401 [Report]
>>725193974
I remember fending off waves for minutes, waiting for some secret alternate ending that never came.
Other games at least force you take action by making the fight impossible. Here I simply grew bored
Anonymous No.725194413 [Report] >>725194578
>>725194332
>You're saying that anyone who might have legitimate criticisms with the story of Spec Ops the Line simply MUST have extremely fragile egos and be autistic, there's simply no other explanation

>A lot of people
>Sometimes because
>Or because

Anon.
You can't bend reality.
Anonymous No.725194548 [Report] >>725194675
>>725194108
Nice cope.
Point stands. It's all about being given the choice.
Anonymous No.725194561 [Report] >>725195614 >>725195970
>>725192456
>Be 12 year old boomer rpg protagonist
>find cave of ancient evils
>ancient evil asks me to break the seals to save my village from invaders or some shit
>decide not to
>game over, good ending, playtime: 5 minutes
Anonymous No.725194578 [Report] >>725194764
>>725194413
>Why do people hate the story for The Last of Us Part 2?
>Because a lot of people are extremely immature homophobic chuds with zero media literacy
>Wow that's pretty reductive
>What? I technically didn't say EVERYONE, just a lot of people!!
Bad. Faith.
Anonymous No.725194608 [Report] >>725194808 >>725194938
>>725192391
Generally speaking, you're supposed to view yourself as the protagonist. Even if you have nothing in common with him, you're still seeing the world through his eyes and experiencing everything he does. That's going to make you self insert whether you like it or not.

Spec Ops goes out of its way to treat the player like he is the guy in the game and frame him as evil for doing those actions, despite it forcing him to do them.

>>725193128
You're not meant to emotionally distance yourself from your avatar. You're meant to immerse yourself in it. That's the point of having an avatar.
Anonymous No.725194620 [Report]
>>725193835
I have a white girlfriend and make 535k TC, thanks for the money white boy. Best part is you think your type thinks the president is against us
Anonymous No.725194675 [Report] >>725194849
>>725194548
Yes. The choice is what makes it interesting. If there's no moral agency, then there's no moral dilemma. I mean this is just basic common sense
Anonymous No.725194764 [Report] >>725195201
>>725194578
>Wow that's pretty reductive
That's not what you said at all, my faggot friend. Let me refresh your memory.
>>725194332
>You're saying that anyone who might have legitimate criticisms with the story of Spec Ops the Line simply MUST have extremely fragile egos and be autistic, there's simply no other explanation for how they may not like your favorite game.

You're literally strawmanning me right now. If you want to actually talk, talk. I'm ready to hear you actually criticize the story or give an actual reason for why a lack of choice in these stories is inherently bad. If you don't, feel free to continue to snake down zigzagging chains of disingenuous bullshit.
Anonymous No.725194773 [Report]
>>725194397
You can fuck it. I was unable to find mountainfuckers on google the same way you can find trainfuckers and planefuckers. My google-fu must be faulty, I refuse to believe no man in existence ever wanted to bang a mountain.
Anonymous No.725194807 [Report]
>more than 50 responses
>no wk lewds
>no iwtfwk
If shit gets gets more grimdark in this place Games Workshop is gonna start stealing 4chan lore and incorporating it into wh40k
Anonymous No.725194808 [Report]
>>725194608
lmao you are fucking retarded. please do not EVER share your horrible misinformed, awful opinions with anyone ever again you inbred fuck.
Anonymous No.725194849 [Report] >>725195107
>>725194675
You're basically calling any book that's not a CYOA an inferior narrative, moron.

Choice is an option for games, not an objective improvement for storytelling.
Anonymous No.725194935 [Report] >>725195407
>>725194120
Both writers have directly stated multiple times that the loading screens refer to both you and Walker and the game's main intent is to make question how normalized violence is in video games.
Anonymous No.725194938 [Report] >>725196361 >>725196570 >>725201343
>>725194608
You are deeply, deeply stupid if you're not able to pull back a bit when there's a desync between you and the avatar.
Anonymous No.725194949 [Report] >>725195007
>>725193128
The entire point of telling the story through vidya is to immerse the player. That's what distinguishes vidya as a genre from books and films. If the devs aren't taking it into account, you get awful movie games.
Anonymous No.725195007 [Report] >>725195393 >>725195941
>>725194949
>Me, an intellectual, when I tell people why Shadow of the Colossus is dogshit
Anonymous No.725195047 [Report]
>>725193618
People who whine about killing refugees or whine about people who want to protect their "genetic purity" always end up being okay with it so long as the race isn't black.
Seriously, not one of these people would be okay with the African population being replaced with white people but they'd celebrate any white area being black washed.
Anonymous No.725195054 [Report]
>>725192171 (OP)
do what nier did and remind you that you aren't the protagonist
Anonymous No.725195060 [Report]
Reminder the proper answer to every faggot defending that kind of shit is not "Don't shoot the guy" but "Refund and never buy anything from anyone hiring anyone credited on this game ever again."
Anonymous No.725195107 [Report] >>725195201 >>725197526
>>725194849
You're trying to act like the devs' intention with Spec Ops the Line was simply to tell the story of a villain, like Kratos in the older God of War games. But that's not what they're doing. God of War is simply a video-game that happens to be about a protagonist who is an asshole. The game never looks at the audience and says "YOU did this. YOU murdered Kratos's wife and child. Really makes you think, huh?" No, because I wasn't fucking involved at all in that. I wasn't involved in the war crimes of Spec Ops the Line either, but the game sure fucking acts like I am
Anonymous No.725195194 [Report]
>>725192323
Wolf among us kind of did this. You can be as nice as possible and you get bitched at no matter what.
Anonymous No.725195201 [Report]
>>725194764
Explained here >>725195107
Anonymous No.725195238 [Report]
>>725193952
nta, but shaming the player over a "choice" they had no say in is bad writing. They could at least have added an alternate early ending that lets you not be an evil war criminal.

As it is the game is just insulting you for playing it and games like it, which is the most pretentious shit ever.
Anonymous No.725195283 [Report]
>>725192556
I only got goy machine 9/11 system, sorry anon.
Anonymous No.725195335 [Report] >>725195489 >>725195495 >>725195569 >>725196716
Thinking a piece of media is talking to you personally/directly is a sign of schizophrenia.
Anonymous No.725195345 [Report] >>725195817
>>725192782
>Water tribe men
>Ugly as hell
What cope is this?
Anonymous No.725195393 [Report]
>>725195007
Not taking into consideration interactivity is about as awful as not taking into account cinematography. Can you shoot the "film" from a static camera angle and treat it like a play with no concern for composition, framing, cuts, camera angles etc? Sure, but it'll be a shit movie that doesn't take full advantage of its medium.
Never played SOTC btw.
Anonymous No.725195407 [Report]
>>725194935
If I have the option to not kill people in games, my first run of it is usually to not kill anyone.

Got mad at vampyr, for making me killing random wagies and not being able to run away. They had every right to be freaked out.
Anonymous No.725195469 [Report]
>>725192171 (OP)
If I'm a bad person for playing the game, doesn't that make the devs bad people for making it? Which kinda makes the whole thing fall flat, doesn't it?
Anonymous No.725195472 [Report] >>725195734
>>725194346
>If you see a girl you like, feel free to take her by force
She was really hoping that girl would be her.
Anonymous No.725195489 [Report]
>>725195335
You are about to begin reading Italo Calvino's new novel, If on a winter's night a traveler. Relax. Concentrate. Dispel every other thought. Let the world around you fade. Best to close the door; the TV is always on in the next room. Tell the others right away, "No, I don't want to watch TV!" Raise your voice--they won't hear you otherwise--"I'm reading! I don't want to be disturbed!" Maybe they haven't heard you, with all that racket; speak louder, yell: "I'm beginning to read Italo Calvino's new novel!" Or if you prefer, don't say anything; just hope they'll leave you alone.
Anonymous No.725195495 [Report]
>>725195335
>That's exactly right. You can find a lot of movies and TV that have delved into the psyche of the soldier, and stuff like that, but it's a detached viewing experience. Some of them are more immersive than others, and they put you on the front lines, things like that. But when you're the one making those decisions, and the fact that it's a game - I love it when that goes away, like when you forget that as a player. I don't know how to put my finger on that, but that's something I'm always going for: is there a way that we can have someone after this experience go, “Oh, s***, I'm sitting here in this chair in my house right now. I'm not actually there!
It was the director's intention to address the player directly
Anonymous No.725195569 [Report] >>725196007 >>725196583
>>725195335
https://web.archive.org/web/20160604021444/http://www.1up.com/features/horror-mysteries-spec-ops-the-line?pager.offset=1
>Like I was saying, we wanted the loading screens to feel like it wasn't just an attack on Walker in the game, but specifically designed to attack the player.
Anonymous No.725195614 [Report]
>>725194561
Better than shaming you for making a choice you didn't make. The real based option would be to make a route where you battle the ancient evils in the cave so no one else can ever free them.
Anonymous No.725195734 [Report] >>725197614 >>725201083
>>725195472
Yep. Mary Sue is more or less a parody of your average Ao3 fanfic writer, her doing all these horrible things to her characters is, indirectly, a form of self-insertion. She's not a sadist, she's a masochist.
Anonymous No.725195785 [Report]
>>725192171 (OP)
NPCs should have a realistic personality. For example, a normal NPC will always consider you a terrible murderer no matter how much good deeds you will do, a leftist one will forgive you for killing their son, and psychopath doesn't care. Basically Crusader Kings, but better. And you shouldn't be able to tell what kind of a person someone is, only your own personal judgement of their words, deeds, and the descriptions of other people (who might be biased, deliberately lying or just repeat the lies someone else told) should be your help in figuring it out.
Anonymous No.725195817 [Report]
>>725195345
Not ugly more generic
Anonymous No.725195892 [Report]
>>725192171 (OP)
Who's the guy telling you to shoot supposed to be? I'm not aware of any games with such a character.
Anonymous No.725195941 [Report]
>>725195007
False equivalency. Shadow of the Colossus is simply a fun little subversion of the classic "good guy slays the monster and saves the princess" story. Turns out the monsters were peaceful, which makes you the asshole, whoops. Spec Ops was made by a pretentious faggoty leftist who was unironically trying to liken playing shooter games to participating in topical real-world war crimes. The game itself was made in bad faith, it's a spiteful Oscar bait premise. It's actually the perfect example of Japanese subtlety vs. Western on-the-nosedness
Anonymous No.725195970 [Report]
>>725194561
Hope it was worth the $60.
Anonymous No.725196007 [Report] >>725196908 >>725197368
>>725195569
Anon, I can't believe you killed dumbledore you piece of shit, why did you have to keep turning the pages? You're a terrible person
Anonymous No.725196095 [Report] >>725196189
>JUST STOP PLAYING THE GAME, JUST PUT IT DOWN, JUST GO OUTSIDE, SEE ITS ART
>ITS AAARRRRT
>ARE YOU HAVING FUN YET, IS YOUR MIND BEING STIMULATED? THE MESSAGE IS GAMING IS EVIL!
And guess which woman is responsible for this
Anonymous No.725196181 [Report] >>725196532 >>725196583 >>725196840
>>725192171 (OP)
I haven't played Spec Ops, but does it really try to break the fourth wall and call you, the player, a bad person for killing civilians? Or is it just calling out the character?
Anonymous No.725196189 [Report] >>725196253
>>725196095
both writers for spec ops were men
Anonymous No.725196253 [Report] >>725196325
>>725196189
Yeah but they were simps which is just a step down from being a troon. We live in a Doctor Seuss society where did any of these words come from
Anonymous No.725196283 [Report]
>>725192171 (OP)
whats the message of this comic? Did that game make the artist THAT mad he had to draw this? I am trying to imagine what is going through their head, what is the problem here?
Anonymous No.725196325 [Report] >>725196485
>>725196253
They came from 4chan
Anonymous No.725196326 [Report]
>>725193251
I kind of regret not getting to play this game blind
Anonymous No.725196361 [Report]
>>725194938
Obviously I can, but you're not supposed to do that. You're usually supposed to engage with the story from the point of view of the protagonist, and Spec Ops is one of those games in which you are meant to do that. Its a problem the player is forced to desync from his player character like that. It ruins the immersion and the player's enjoyment of the story, since now he can't engage with as anything other than the author preaching at him.
Anonymous No.725196456 [Report] >>725196585 >>725196587
>>725192171 (OP)
I fucking love all the asspain that this 45 year old piece of shit generic TPS STILL CAUSES to this day because you fucking virgins take yourselves so seriously and are so insecure that youre still crying about how Sergeant Marine hurt your feelings in Delta Ops Assault Gun or whatever it was called, which I reiterate came out 30 fucking years ago and never mattered.
Anonymous No.725196485 [Report]
>>725196325
Don't look behind you anon...
Anonymous No.725196490 [Report]
>>725192171 (OP)
Anonymous No.725196491 [Report] >>725197272 >>725197371
>>725192171 (OP)
>game asks you to think about violence in video games and how we engage in it
>refuse to think about the question
>instead get upset that there is not an option that vindicates them even though it would hurt the story's narrative
I share this hobby with retards.

And no, the option to not do "bad" thing would not change how you actually feel. Totono and Undertale both give players the option to avoid the worst parts and people still act like they were not given a choice.
Anonymous No.725196532 [Report]
>>725196181
>does it really try to break the fourth wall and call you, the player, a bad person for killing civilians?
first it starts out calling the character a bad person, then it starts calling you the player a bad person
there was an option at one point to not use the white phosphorous on civilians and just walk away but too many players were choosing that option which removed the dev's ability to be faggots and call players evil, so they removed the player choice so they could say "see! you are an evil person IRL!"
Anonymous No.725196570 [Report]
>>725194938
Why do you think no one is complaining about games with villainous protagonists like Silent Hill 2 or God of War or Shadow of the Colossus, but they are complaining about Spec Ops the Line specifically? It's obviously because Spec Ops the Line failed in a very specific way, you disingenuous faggot
Anonymous No.725196583 [Report]
>>725196181
All the call-outs come out ambiguous but the article >>725195569 does confirm that the player is the target as well.
Anonymous No.725196585 [Report] >>725196724
>>725196456
>something is abhorrently retarded enough that an entire community remembers it
>someone how people still making fun of it is people being asshurt and insecure
Is this some kind of bait?
Anonymous No.725196587 [Report]
>>725196456
>/v/ just having a laugh
>U STILL MAD LOLOLOL
Anonymous No.725196716 [Report]
>>725195335
Anon, all media is the author talking to the audience using literary devices. Not being able to see that is illiteracy. Not media illiteracy just illiteracy.
Anonymous No.725196724 [Report]
>>725196585
No one genuinely likes this game. Its only relevance on /v/, and in general, is ragebaiting people. It's one of those "media literacy" memes, like Starship Troopers or The Boys
Anonymous No.725196728 [Report] >>725196834
>>725193618
That doesn't change anything. If anything it just further illustrates the point.

Most videogame shooty stories are some kind of power fantasy and you, being an empathetic human being, feel a degree of what the character feels. When the character does something badass you feel a like a badass. That's not the only emotion a game or story can evoke though. There's horror games and horny games and mind numbing games that make you feel different things. When a character is scared you feel scared, when a character is sad you feel sad. When Eric Sparrow steals your tape you feel immense rage.

SOTL is misery porn, you play it to feel miserable. When the character commits a war crime and kills hundreds of innocent people in the most horrific way imaginable and feels bad about it, you the empathetic player also feel a little bad about it.

This isn't the game saying "you as the player are a bad person for doing a bad thing" it's you as a human being having an emotional reaction to seeing a representation of a human being feel immense guilt. The fact that you are in the shoes of this character and physically pressed the buttons to do the bad thing (in theory) makes this emotional reaction stronger.

>>725193663
Ok so what? The devs wanting to be metafags and make a 2deep4u game about videogame violence doesn't change anything. The times the game not so subtly talks to the player through Walker doesn't change that either.

At the end of the day it's just a story about a misguided wannabe hero that inadvertently keeps making everything worse.
Anonymous No.725196834 [Report]
>>725196728
>The devs wanting to be metafags and make a 2deep4u game about videogame violence doesn't change anything
Considering how the game was a total financial and critical failure and has the legacy of a pretentious laughingstock, clearly it did change something
Anonymous No.725196840 [Report]
>>725196181
i have not played the entire game because the gameplay is just a bland covershooter, but from what i did play it forces the player to do things many players do not want to do and reasonably should not be the only thing that the player can do, then shows that what they made the player do was actually even worse than they initially informed the player
Anonymous No.725196868 [Report] >>725197218
God, I love Spec Ops thread. It's the same seethe since the game released and it's always some version of "the writers said I was a bad guy and it hurt my feelings".
Anonymous No.725196884 [Report]
>>725193036
Because the writers are talentless hacks?
Anonymous No.725196908 [Report]
>>725196007
Yeah, that's Spec Ops' narrative in a nutshell.
Anonymous No.725196909 [Report]
>>725192171 (OP)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superior_orders
Anonymous No.725197018 [Report]
>>725193251
It’s kind of amazing how this game does the same thing but executed way better than spec ops the line.
Anonymous No.725197042 [Report] >>725197383 >>725197562 >>725201272
>>725192171 (OP)
>How do you solve this problem of video game storytelling?

it was solved already in Undertale

the game STRONGLY pushes you towards being a good person, it gives you the most gameplay, the most character interactions, nowhere is it even implied the genocide route exists, and going through that route is incredibly tedious, the only reason why you would ever take that route, is malice, or at best, indifference towards the other characters because "i wanna see what happens next"

its one of the best morality systems ive seen in a video game
Anonymous No.725197218 [Report] >>725197639
>>725196868
>the writers said I was a bad guy and it hurt my feelings
Black Souls did it, and I love it for it. It did so with much more grace than Spec Ops and Undertale. I, the player, actively chose to see the rape scenes, out of lust and curiosity. Nobody pushed me to do it, there was no in-game reward, my progression was not blocked. The guilt is mine and mine alone.
Anonymous No.725197241 [Report]
>you the player is bad
No, you the dev is and i've got a way to prove it.
Anonymous No.725197272 [Report]
>>725196491
The statement it makes about violence in video games is stupid and self defeating.

>Totono and Undertale both give players the option to avoid the worst parts and people still act like they were not given a choice.
I love Undertale, its one of my favorite games. It did what Specs Ops miserably failed to do and actually made a good point about how we engage with video games. And it did so by making all the fucked up shit actually be my choice.
Anonymous No.725197368 [Report] >>725197598 >>725198367
>>725196007
>Anon, I can't believe you killed dumbledore you piece of shit, why did you have to keep turning the pages? You're a terrible person
i love this in idea, actually.
Anonymous No.725197371 [Report]
>>725196491
>game demands you, the player, personally prostrate yourself and genuflect to it's retard 2-deep-5-u faggotry
>get upset when people say you're a fucking moron and refund instead
Anonymous No.725197383 [Report] >>725197815 >>725198304 >>725200346
>>725197042
>the most gameplay
You're pushed to do the genocide route to experience the Undyne and Sans boss fights.
The route being hidden is a flaw, as it drives you to discover the ending through community interaction rather than organically. The grinding was unnecessary, the genocide route should've automatically kicked off if you killed all the bosses after a pacifist route.
Anonymous No.725197526 [Report]
>>725195107
Spec ops was challenging military shooter campaigns where you kill 800 people and the world rewards you. It is a meta commentary, but that’s not the same thing as shaming the player.
Anonymous No.725197562 [Report]
>>725197042
I think Deltarune is a good example too, since this time around the player actually has justifications for doing the horrible shit, but it still manages to sell the idea that the horrible shit is indeed horrible.
Anonymous No.725197598 [Report]
>>725197368
Pseuds love all things wrong in the world, yes.
Anonymous No.725197614 [Report] >>725199839
>>725195734
Can you give her what she wants?
Anonymous No.725197639 [Report] >>725198026
>>725197218
Your humiliation fetish is irrelevant to the non-complains anons still have about spec ops.
Anonymous No.725197734 [Report]
>>725192171 (OP)
I never bought the game, as such I never played the game which is what you're supposed to do when you buy a game, so does that mean I'm a good person and a certified Better Man (registered trademark)?
Anonymous No.725197749 [Report] >>725198043
>>725192171 (OP)
That doesn't seem like an accurate portrayal of Spec Ops. First of all, you mostly shoot American soldiers. Second of all, there's no character in-game telling the player to shoot people, and then calling the player bad for it. There is one scene where a character presents you with a choice, but you can simply not do what you're being told. In fact in almost all scenarios in the game where it appears you're given a binary choice, or you're forced to do something, you're allowed to do something else. Save for one scene, where the enemy forces are too overwhelming. The only thing there telling you "you're bad" are the messages during load screens. At first they provide tips, but then they start to devolve as Walker starts to devolve. But that's supposed to build immersion. To pull you into the narrative and establish a stronger identity bond with Walker. Walker is losing his mind and the contextual elements of the game are used to reinforce that by fucking with the player and making them feel like they're losing their mind as well. If you get so offended by a pretend scenario telling you you're bad for your actions in an interactive narrative, then maybe stick to narratives where there is a stronger separation between the protagonist and the person consuming the medium. Spec Ops is one of the very few games that uses the unique elements of interactive media to erode that separation for immersion purposes, and does so very effectively, but you need a certain level of emotional maturity to be able to engage with it.
Anonymous No.725197815 [Report] >>725198135
>>725197383
Two really unpleasant and not at all rewarding boss fights. People only they do it to say they did it, not for any actual benefit, which is what the entire route exists to call out.

The whole point is that you're going out of your way to be evil for no good reason. That doesn't work if the route is easy to do.
Anonymous No.725197989 [Report] >>725198110
>>725192456
>lose to kai leng on thessia no matter what you do
Hell yeah I'm still mad.
Anonymous No.725197997 [Report] >>725199030
>>725193251
Undertale isn't about violence in videogames in the same way Spec Ops is. Undertale is specifically about your relationship with video game characters and the players desire for completion. They may share some themes, but the message both games are trying to send are fundamentally different. If Spec Ops let you just dodge the violence it's message would weaken unlike Undertale which hinges its identity on the choice.

Undetale also doesn't bash you for doing genocide. Sans literally acknowledges that you are not doing what you are doing because you are evil, but because you want to see what will happen and Flowly and Sans both say one of the cruelest things you can do is simply taking away their good end even if it's just to do true pacifist again.
Anonymous No.725198026 [Report] >>725198369
>>725197639
>humiliation fetish
It is a time-honoured tradition.
>If you are alluding to Dostoevsky’s worst novels, then, indeed, I dislike intensely The Brothers Karamazov and the ghastly Crime and Punishment rigamarole. No, I do not object to soul-searching and self-revelation, but in those books the soul, and the sins, and the sentimentality, and the journalese, hardly warrant the tedious and muddled search. Dostoyevsky’s lack of taste, his monotonous dealings with persons suffering with pre-Freudian complexes, the way he has of wallowing in the tragic misadventures of human dignity – all this is difficult to admire. I do not like this trick his characters have of ”sinning their way to Jesus” or, as a Russian author, Ivan Bunin, put it more bluntly, ”spilling Jesus all over the place." Crime and Punishment’s plot did not seem as incredibly banal in 1866 when the book was written as it does now when noble prostitutes are apt to be received a little cynically by experienced readers. Dostoyevsky never really got over the influence which the European mystery novel and the sentimental novel made upon him. The sentimental influence implied that kind of conflict he liked—placing virtuous people in pathetic situations and then extracting from these situations the last ounce of pathos. Non-Russian readers do not realize two things: that not all Russians love Dostoevsky as much as Americans do, and that most of those Russians who do, venerate him as a mystic and not as an artist. He was a prophet, a claptrap journalist and a slapdash comedian. I admit that some of his scenes, some of his tremendous farcical rows are extraordinarily amusing. But his sensitive murderers and soulful prostitutes are not to be endured for one moment—by this reader anyway. Dostoyevsky seems to have been chosen by the destiny of Russian letters to become Russia’s greatest playwright, but he took the wrong turning and wrote novels.
Anonymous No.725198043 [Report] >>725198394
>>725197749
Aw, you made up a whole narrative of your own and everything. Like years after the developers went out of their way to specifically state you are wrong, even. That's sad and adorable.
Anonymous No.725198110 [Report] >>725200083
>>725197989
The fight wasn't even hard... Like they could have made it so absurdly difficult to win that it would be unexpected in any conceptual situation that someone would in fact win.
But nope.
Anonymous No.725198135 [Report] >>725198508
>>725197815
Undyne is my favourite boss fight in the entire game, it was a lot of fun. Great twist on gameplay mechanics, great music. The Sans boss fight was pretty fun too, I liked it more than any base game boss fight other than maybe Muffet.
Anonymous No.725198170 [Report]
>>725192171 (OP)
Far cry 5 did this sort of thing much better, because it provided a target that lefties actually WANTED to hurt, so when the end comes and they are judged for their actions it really pissed them off.
Anonymous No.725198227 [Report]
>actually you are missing the point, this milittshooting game is too deep you just don't get it
Anonymous No.725198304 [Report]
>>725197383
>You're pushed to do the genocide route to experience the Undyne and Sans boss fights
Which no one does.
Anonymous No.725198360 [Report] >>725199538
>>725192171 (OP)
Bethesda solved it a long time ago.

They stated several times it's their philosophy to never judge the player for their moral decisions. Any other dev, even a Jap dev, would force the player, for example, to side with synths in Fallout 4 otherwise it would be made quite clear to the player they are playing the "evil path". Bethesda never does this. You can join the Institute and declares synths don't have souls and you are never judged for this. Hell, the game even lets you say you hate the press and the press is a fucking sacred cow in the west and you are never judged for this.
Anonymous No.725198367 [Report]
>>725197368
I get the sentiment, but this guy is still a faggot. A story is the sum of its parts. A journey without a destination is just as much incomplete as a destination without a journey, Both are meaningless on their own.

Even that happy ending he says you could imagine if you close the book is still an ending, its just one you made up in your head.
Anonymous No.725198369 [Report] >>725198403
>>725198026
Who are you quoting?
Anonymous No.725198394 [Report] >>725199262
>>725198043
Where did the developers state I'm wrong? Whenever I've seen them comment on it, they just make objective statements about what's in the game. Tool tips are calling you bad for you in-game actions. That's it. They don't tell you what the purpose was. I'm explaining to you the purpose. Or you're a dumbfuck and you think the developers actually think you're doing something immoral by interacting with a piece of media they made, instead of it being made for the purpose of being enriching to the consumer. You're not that stupid, are you?
Anonymous No.725198403 [Report]
>>725198369
Nabby.
Anonymous No.725198424 [Report]
>>725192427
Retard.
Anonymous No.725198508 [Report]
>>725198135
Yeah, but at the end of the day the only reason you have to do the fights is to do the fights. That's still doing it for the sake of doing it. Killing all these people for no other reason than fun, which makes you the same as Flowey.
Anonymous No.725199030 [Report] >>725200778
>>725197997
Why would it weaken? if you avoid the violence you simply are not the person who needs a lecture.
Anonymous No.725199096 [Report] >>725199505 >>725199537
Spec ops probably isnt even in my top 100, but it does hold a special place in my heart for how it still makes /v/ seethe. Also, the primary criticism, that the game is guilting players for a choice they’re being forced to make, is literally objectively wrong.

Spec ops isn’t a criticism of the gaming community choosing evil options in games, it’s a criticism of brown and bloom military shooters. There doesn’t need to be choice in the game, there shouldn’t be. You already chose the wrong option if you bought a game about going to someone else’s home and shooting everyone you see and expected the game to treat you like a superhero.
Anonymous No.725199191 [Report] >>725199318
What's the point of Spec Ops bashing Walker and the Player? War bad? You should feel bad for playing military games? Or is that fiction is purely artificial yet you still feed bad? Is it that it's pointless to feel bad about fictional tragedy since it's not real, but that we should feel bad about real world atrocities instead?

Undertale makes these points way better either way.
Anonymous No.725199262 [Report] >>725200338
>>725198394
Didn't the devs openly state that players were bad for playing military shooters?
Anonymous No.725199318 [Report] >>725199627 >>725200257
>>725199191
that military shooters and their fans made a toy box out of the war on terror
you need to have been alive before 9/11 to get it
Anonymous No.725199505 [Report] >>725199716
>>725199096
It fundamentally doesn't work because they took your money selling a modern military shooter. If it was a free game they can have their high ground but it wasn't.
Anonymous No.725199530 [Report]
>>725192171 (OP)
>How do you solve this problem of video game storytelling?
If you want to just tell a story, you do the OP pic. If you want the player to create his own story, you make a sandbox RPG or a grand strategy
Anonymous No.725199535 [Report]
>>725192964
That sounds exactly like Avatar.
I don't see the issue.
Anonymous No.725199537 [Report] >>725199997
>>725199096
>You already chose the wrong option if you bought a game about going to someone else’s home and shooting everyone you see
That's not what Call of Duty is about. Your argument here is that the devs were drooling retards who don't even play games.
Anonymous No.725199538 [Report] >>725199942
>>725198360
The karma system somewhat undermines that, as the devs explicitly code certain actions as always good karmically and others as evil. Practically everyone knows about the Tenpenny Tower quest in FO3, and it illustrates that while the devs won't openly judge your actions....actually they will and 3 Dog is their voice on the matter depending on whatever it is you choose to do.
Anonymous No.725199627 [Report]
>>725199318
>that military shooters and their fans made a toy box out of the war on terror
ALL WAR GAMES ARE MAKING TOYS OUT OF REAL WARS THIS HAS BEEN THE CASE SINCE FUCKING CHESS
Anonymous No.725199716 [Report] >>725201038
>>725199505
>If it was a free game they can have their high ground but it wasn't.
This is why Duty Calls was always the superior deconstruction.
Anonymous No.725199839 [Report]
>>725197614
Yes.
Anonymous No.725199942 [Report] >>725200110
>>725199538
Bethesda didn't come up with the karma system. It was in previous Fallout games. They only put it in there because they felt they needed to. Fallout 3 is not a true Bethesda game. It's Bethesda trying to make a Fallout game. They just made a Bethesda game with Fallout 4.
Anonymous No.725199997 [Report] >>725200738
>>725199537
Yeah, it is. COD, through more and more tenuous excuses as the games go on, are games about lionizing US soldiers for going around the world shooting people. That’s objectively true, it’s in the description of the genre. Everything else is set dressing to justify that experience. and COD is one of about 500 military shooters of the early aughts, most of which were seethe pieces about the war on terror.
Anonymous No.725200083 [Report]
>>725198110
Yeah I pulled out the rocket launcher I saved and wiped that scrub 10 seconds flat that xbox live email was the crap cherry on the shit cake.
Anonymous No.725200110 [Report] >>725200389
>>725199942
You're literally moving the goal post when FO3 would've been more of a "Bethesda game" as it precedes FO4. By that logic, Starfield is the most Bethesda game, and it's colossal shit.
Anonymous No.725200257 [Report] >>725200820
>>725199318
There is literally nothing wrong with exterminating your enemies to the last man, woman, and child with whatever weapons will do so the most effectively. If anything blasting white hot burning gunk should be celebrated, not condemned. There is no such thing as noncombatants in war.
Anonymous No.725200296 [Report]
>>725192171 (OP)
_ ____ __ ____ _____ _____!
Anonymous No.725200338 [Report] >>725201043
>>725199262
Spec Ops kicks you in the balls for liking military shooters with its subversion, but I don't recall the devs saying you're doing something immoral by playing them. If that was their intention, then Spec Ops doesn't do a very good job at it, since the story of that game is more of a psychological character exploration, and is so specific that it doesn't elegantly generalize in a way that makes it work a commentary about war in general. But you could say it's a response to a specific brand of blandness of writing in military shooters at the time. How those were just dumb virtue and power fantasies with bland played-out characters and settings without much nuance. Those games have their place, kinda like McDonald's does, but I get the urge to shake your fist with frustration at the fact that this was all there was to it.
Anonymous No.725200346 [Report]
>>725197383
way to miss the fucking point
Anonymous No.725200389 [Report] >>725201824
>>725200110
You can't just make up your own logic and pretend it's my logic.

At no point have I ever stated the more recent a Bethesda release the more a Bethesda game it is. I'm just saying Fallout 3 was Bethesda trying to make a game in someone else's franchise and not Bethesda trying to make a Bethesda game. They felt the need to adhere to the design of the previous games like the skill system and the karma system and the factions and so on. They even kept fucking VATS when it doesn't really make a lot of sense in an FPS. They did not feel the need to do any of this with Fallout 4.
Anonymous No.725200738 [Report]
>>725199997
t. Doesn't play games
Anonymous No.725200778 [Report]
>>725199030
Spec Ops was made at the height of military shooter relevancy where war was made out to be an amusement park with the terrors of war being the main attraction. By giving the player a choice it paints a different message and shifts the focus away from the horrors of war and how we engage in it for fun.

>lecture
Firstly, I don't think the game was designed to lecture anybody. Secondly, why would it matter if you were already conscious of violence and military when getting involved in the story? It'd be like Saving Private Ryan having a director's cut version for vets that skips the meat of the story because vets already know how fucked everything was.
Anonymous No.725200820 [Report] >>725201030
>>725200257
Post nose.
Anonymous No.725201030 [Report]
>>725200820
I think both desert tribes need a little fire.
Anonymous No.725201038 [Report] >>725201246
>>725199716
Duty Calls only mocks military shooters in a gameplay sense which is a very different topic than Spec Ops' critique of normalized war.
Anonymous No.725201043 [Report]
>>725200338
>If that was their intention, then Spec Ops doesn't do a very good job at it, since the story of that game is more of a psychological character exploration, and is so specific that it doesn't elegantly generalize in a way that makes it work a commentary about war in general
That's my reading too. It's not like Funny Games which tries really hard to make the audience uncomfortable about slasher movie conventions. SOTL is still a psychological action thriller at the end of the day, and the final twist is more similar to Fight Club more than anything else.
Anonymous No.725201083 [Report] >>725201216
>>725195734
Did she get anything new from the BS2 DLC? Never finished that
Anonymous No.725201216 [Report]
>>725201083
A bit of lore but she doesn't play a big part really.
Anonymous No.725201246 [Report] >>725201487
>>725201038
>Spec Ops' critique of normalized war
When they do that? The war in that game is about an environmental crisis that goes way out of control.
Anonymous No.725201272 [Report]
>>725197042
Nah, for the genocide route to be potent, it should have been a slog with no real payoff. You killed everyone. You didn't struggle. You got no cool rewards. You just saw everyone die and get an empty ending.

Having it be the secret boss route is just making players eat some bitter vegetables before giving them as much cake as they want to gorge on.
Anonymous No.725201343 [Report]
>>725194938
At no point here did anyone say they were unable to do so. You are deeply deeply deeply retarded if that is how you read this reply chain
Anonymous No.725201487 [Report] >>725201724
>>725201246
The context for why Walker in Dubai shooting people is intentionally accessory. Like the mil shooters it’s criticizing, the reason you’re in the desert shooting brown people is mostly irrelevant to that you have the opportunity to do it.
Anonymous No.725201724 [Report] >>725202091
>>725201487
Most mil shooters give background and details though?
Anonymous No.725201824 [Report]
>>725200389
I'd argue you're still wrong on that point, as what they did is take systems they created with the Elder Scrolls, specifically Oblivion, and reuse them for Fallout 3. Much of what stayed the same from previous Fallout games was the setting, some of the designs, and the karma system. Everything else was Bethesda's style at the time, that includes the primarily first person perspective, schedule based AI trees, large open world with fast travel systems, semi-limited choices for quest resolution, and a general refusal to put a hard limit on what the player can and can't do. If they had considered an option to join the Brotherhood and the Exiles (and maybe even the Enclave as well) at the same time, they would've done it. Keeping VATS was them trying to figure out how to make a turn based mechanic function in a first person, real time game and it was somewhat awkward in its implementation.
Anonymous No.725202000 [Report]
>>725192642
you can just kill them with a sniper rifle, you don't need to drop white phosphorus on them
Anonymous No.725202091 [Report]
>>725201724
That doesn’t contradict my point