What are your thoughts on retro tactical shooters

Ghost Recon was good but hard at the time, SWAT 4 was the shit.

>>11785926 (OP)
coflict vietnam, coflict desert storm,coflict desert storm II and coflict global terror, full spectrum warrior, full spectrum warrior ten hammers as wel, as socom, socom 2 socom 3 and socom combined arms were all amazing on the ps2.

fun fact Full Spectrum Warrior had its roots in a murky US military training programme to utilise cheap commercial systems. They wre the first wave of games that had both multiplayer and in some cases multiplayer speech and headsets socom sold with a headset

Flashpoint is king. SWAT 4 is also sweet.

>>11785958
Isn't FSW a strategy game, not a shooter?

>>11785926 (OP)
They were fun multiplayer online when they matched you with other players of similar to your skill level (dunno if they still do this)

I love them.

What's that Ghost Recon map pack with like a 1000 missions called again? That was absolute heavens

>>11785926 (OP)
ghost recon 1 and 2 left me kind of disappointed. all the intricate simultaneous tactical planning I was enthusiastic about at the start of the game was eventually revealed to be brittle and inefficient. you lead your line like a regular fps and then use the tactics system for breaches and the occasional waiting spot.

Friendly reminder to give Hidden and Dangerous 2 a chance

>>11785926 (OP)
These retro tactical games had some pretty neat ideas like randomizing the objective without telling you it did. Yet, the one flaw in all these games was the grenades. Your AI pals just cannot handle it.

>>11785926 (OP)
I liked the old Delta Force games, shame that steam delisted a bunch of em in favor of that Chink-shit Delta Force game.
>>11785932
SWAT 4 was good but I preferred the AI in SWAT 3 a bit more, your guys in 4 would constantly get in your way.

>>11785926 (OP)
I realized pretty quick that I was a R6/GR kind of guy opposed to the SWAT3/4 crowd. I still enjoy the SWAT games but they felt too robotic, there's a set way you are supposed to play the game and if you play it like that it's absurdly easy but if you play it in a more fun way it will punish you.
R6 and GR felt like you could actually experiment with different styles and tactics without being told you're playing the game wrong.

>>11785926 (OP)
Sadly, it was the peak of the genre. They stopped improving around 2003.

>>11786452
>was eventually revealed to be brittle and inefficient. you lead your line like a regular fps and then use the tactics system for breaches and the occasional waiting spot.

What the fuck are you talking about?

>>11786728
>randomizing the objective
No? Some of the spawns on enemies are randomized, but the objectives are always pretty much static.

>>11786735
The retro Delta Force games are on gog. I tried once to play the original isos but it couldn't run. The gog ones worked

>>11785926 (OP)
>tactical shooters

i never got the deal with Rainbow 6 at all. i was just playing the Quake 3 demo for shits n chuckles in between playing crappy indie RPGs back in the day.

>>11787259
Well for me, it was atmosphere, R6 has this great thriller feeling, that and it felt satisfying to kill terrorists

>>11787259
It's for people who have fun by giving a shit, not by not giving a shit. Not meant as a value judgement, either. I think it's just a reaction to your environment. I was surrounded by vapid wastrels growing up, so I longed for purpose, meaning, seriousness. So as a kid I liked Batman, etc. By contrast one of my best friends had authoritarian parents and wanted nothing more than whimsy and capricious delight.

>>11787313
What about people that like sandbox games?

>>11787213
you caught me being a faggot, complaining about games when I don't remember their names, I was talking about rainbow six.

>>11787313
>I was surrounded by vapid wastrels growing up, so I longed for purpose, meaning, seriousness.

metoo. but that didn't make me wanna roleplay as a swat copper in a game. that made wanna be a knight in shining armour in an RPG more than anything else. real life was bullshit. why would i wanna play more of that?

do i need to larp as a tacticool soldier to enjoy this genre? i tried swat 4 but i got bored early on...

>>11785926 (OP)
I like that some tactical shooters can be unpredictable like in the case of swat 4 with different enemy placements.

>>11787381
swat 4 is by far the most extreme when it comes to procedure, you should try something like ghost recon before you swear off the genre.

>>11787337
>you lead your line like a regular FPS
>Rainbow Six

I could understand if you said that about Ghost Recon, due to the tactics being more loose than Rainbow Six, although generally I would say the AI is capable of compensating by laying down suppressive fire and using stealth. But for Rainbow Six 1 and 2? I don't see what you're talking about.

>brittle and ineffecient
I'm mystified by your use of the term "brittle", and as for "inefficient", you are severely punished for not peaking corners, utilizing overwatch, there are numerous maps where sniping is highly emphasized....I don't see how the tactical planning is "inefficient", since if you just run through it like a normal FPS like Turok or Half-Life you lose entire squads.

>then use tactics system for breaches and the occasional waiting spot
IE, Half of the game. The game is designed around utilizing your squads to breach in an optimal way at specific points, clear a route, so that another team can then enter without being detected or shot at, to then achieve the objective. "The occasional waiting spot" is every map, for every team.

>>11787381
It's a specific taste of game.

Compare to Doom, Quake, or Half-Life, where you don't really need to know shit about about real life infantry combat tactics or weapon handling (even though a little bit actually does help you in those games), and you actually can just drop into them fairly casually. There's shitloads of hidden depth if you pay lots of attention to these games, but the casual players won't notice them or use them, nor need them for the stock levels.
Compare also to the really serious types of oldschool flightsim games, where you didn't just drop in casually, no, there was nothing fucking casual about those, you had to STUDY the game's manual and set up dozens of binds, probably really invest in a proper flighstick for convenience's sake.

SWAT 4 would fall somewhere around the middle of those ends.

You'd want to be actually a little bit interested in military tactics and history, police procedurals, guns and shooting, etc. Not to a huge extent, mind, as SWAT 4 still takes quite a lot of liberties with guns and police procedural for the sake of gameplay. (There's shit you'd do in that game sometimes which would NOT fly IRL, and probably would lead to litigation and maybe even prison time.)
It's not quite a full blown Autists Only kind of game, it had a wider appeal in its day and audience than that, and its complexity is only moderate, but it takes more topic interest and commitment than average action shooters. That said, on lower difficulties, SWAT 4 is more tolerant of a full blown Robocop approach to suspects (in the shooting on sight sense, not your durability), just don't hit any hostages or bystanders.

>>11785926 (OP)
My buddies and I would play games like this multiplayer and use all the lingo, "eyes on hostile" etc etc, that was fun for a couple weeks.

>>11787535
Maybe in the policing sense, but SWAT 4 does funny things in regards to weapons (like the shotguns). It's more the older SWAT titles which got super autistic about shit, like getting to play as the sniper.

>>11787381
>do i need to larp as a tacticool soldier to enjoy this genre
If you're an ADHD zoomer or autist-boomer, you won't like the slow paced nature of them that's inherent to the genre. They're essentially strategy games in a first-person perspective.

>>11787569
The LARP'ing can help with immersion, but I often have just as much fun fucking around with a friend or two and just doing crazy shit.

>>11787553
you can pick and prod at specific things i said but my end experience with the game was that anytime I tried to take the game at face value and really embrace tactical maneuvers I was punished by the game, dead soldiers and mission failures. being as brain dead and limited as possible, keeping ai inactive as much as possible I got full squads through missions easily.
> this single room has a low hanging fruit double breach point
that's the absolute bare minimum and isn't very interesting.

>>11787585
>pick and prod at specific things I said
>specific things
You mean the entire point of your comments?

The fact of the matter is that Rainbow Six does not at all play similarly to any other FPS games of the era, outside of those in the same genre as it.

>I tried to take the game at face value and really embrace tactical maneuvers I was punished by the game
I would need to know what "tactical maneuvers" you're referring to.

>being as brain dead and limited as possible, keeping ai inactive as much as possible I got full squads through missions easily.
You mean....Using the go-codes hardcoded into the game to tell teams to go and stop when you need them to in order to advance through the map?

What I'm getting from your comments is that you probably played them for a couple hours, tried to do some hollywood action slop where you use the wrong breach method, are way too loud, resulting in them setting off bombs/killing hostages, and then blaming the game for being bad at it.

>that's the absolute bare minimum and isn't very interesting.
Lmao, you have so much to learn.

>>11787315
Depends what they like doing in them? I dunno, it's just an opinion.
>>11787349
I could like being a knight, but I had to be serious and detailed and so on about it. Actually, I think that's why I liked Thief 1&2, because it felt more "real" to be cautious and clever.

>>11787381
I don't know about LARPing but the fun in SWAT 4 does come from trying to do your job properly as much as you can, which in this game means foreseeing what could possibly go wrong at any given moment. You could just wing it and barge into each room shooting everyone you see while losing half your squad in the process, but it's more practical to approach each mission in a way that eliminates the chances of shit hitting the fan and keeps the death count low. Don't know who's on the other side of the door? Use the mirror. You're using the mirror? Have your squad cover your back meanwhile. Think someone might sneak up on you and your squad? Wedge the door. Suspects have gas masks? Don't bring gas grenades. They have armor? Use FMJ bullets. Some of the precautions you take might not matter most of the time, but when they do matter neglecting them can end up costing you your life, your teammates', or the mission.

>>11787583
I'm a 33 year old ADD sperg, and I found the game pretty fun and engaging back when it was new and I was like... 11 or 12 or something, I forget. Still found it pretty fun and engaging many years later.
Never approached it as a strategy game in that sense, I just approached it as a very methodical shooter.

>>11787349
>but that didn't make me wanna roleplay as a swat copper in a game. that made wanna be a knight in shining armour in an RPG more than anything else
I get your perspective, but from mine, a SWAT entry of a hostage situation could more or less be looked at as a knight in shining armor scenario.
(Not that it always plays out like that IRL, but that's besides the point).
Hell, one of the first missions is a bust at a serial killer's house where you rescue a damsel in distress.

One of the things I did was to edit one of the .ini files to unlock all of the weapons in the game for single player, and then also tweaked the Colt Python revolver so that it had comparable accuracy/handling to the other pistols, and would more or less just Dirty Harry my way through half of the missions, and it was a lot of fun. (Yes, I know Callahan didn't use a Colt Python).

>>11787675
>Think someone might sneak up on you and your squad? Wedge the door.
YES, exactly shit like this, and the Door Wedges were one of my favorite tools in the game because of how goddamn practical they were, together with the fantastical "Opti-Wand" it gave you an incredible amount of control for certain situations.

>>11787567
>>(There's shit you'd do in that game sometimes which would NOT fly IRL, and probably would lead to litigation and maybe even prison time.)
>This unarmed grandma doesn't wanna comply, let's taze her.
>*TZZZZZZZZZZ-!!*
>"Ooooh, my heart!"
Can you fucking imagine? You'd be in the news cycle for months, hell, years back in those days.
There's also the part where you can bean someone in the skull with a 12-Gauge beanbag round and they're "unharmed."

>>11785926 (OP)
I like them, the SWAT series in particular. On that same topic there was a SWAT like game on I think PS1 that I can't ever remember the name of. It let you handcuff civilians and enemies.

>>11787685
>Never approached it as a strategy game in that sense, I just approached it as a very methodical shooter.

I was speaking abstractly. Compared to something like Duke Nukem 3D or Medal of Honor, there is a very large difference.

>>11787229
Could be talking about SWAT 3, the first mission will sometimes put a dude in the attic and have him sprint for the gun instead of hiding in one of the other rooms for example.

>>11787553
Oh shit, you saved one of my shitty webms. I’ve been meaning to make a loss for each of the missions but never bothered because YouTube is a thing

>>11786449
https://www.moddb.com/mods/rainbow-six-black-ops-20
This one. However the bozos have bad configuration if you launch the game mouse cursor doesn't work properly.
You need to add dgVoodoo to get rid of it and restore mouse sensitivity.
I don't know what wrapper are they using by default.

>>11789681
Here's my dgvoodoo setup
>https://files.catbox.moe/ji0fdc.rar
Extract to the game's root directory.
If you are sceptical you can upload the .dll and .exe file to virustotal.com just in case.

>>11789681
>mouse cursor doesn't work properly
What doesn't work exactly?

does the socom series fall in the tactical shooter genre? i played one of them (cant remember which) on ps2 probably a decade ago and i liked it

Blood [1997] was so brutal with its hitscan enemies that it accidentally became a proto-tactical shooter.
You must approach hitscans methodically, either by closing the gap and firing both barrels or shooting while strafing sideways in and out of cover.
It is also it is much preferable to just clear rooms with dynamites rather than to take direct gunfights, similar to how CQB is handled IRL.
The pacing of the game is much slower and more methodical than its contemporaries. You will often find yourself playing Blood as if it was Counter-strike in the sense that you are constantly pre-aiming corners and strafing laterally in and out of cover while shooting.

>>11790863
System Shock 1 also had some proto-tactical shooter elements in its gameplay. Gunfights were much more methodical and you could lean, prone and change stance not unlike Tarkov. There was also a effort to make realistic recoil with some guns, when firing fully automic the screen would tilt back and your aim would go high.

Swat4 was the only good retro tactical game. Actually, it probably is the only good shooter-tactical game, ever.

>>11785958
are you a motherfucking marine or something

>>11790863
>>11790871
>tactical shooter is when you can lean and have to take cover

>>11790863
Not entirely untrue, but Blood still demands some very intense running and gunning at the same time, and a lot of jumping. You couldn't do shit like this in games like SWAT 4 or Rainbow 6.
Enemies are cannons, but glass cannons, and so is the player, but the player also has exceptional mobility, which is how you avoid dying.

Is there any way to mellow out the AI in the pre-raven shield r6 games so it doesnt 360 no scope you in 0.1 seconds?

I remember reading it didnt react as quickly on period accurate CPUs but idk if true

sniper target accquired
ALL TEAMS HOLD
...
target lost
...
sights are hot
...
ALPHA GO GO GO
*GUNFIRE* WOMEN SCREAMING*
THREATS NEUTRALIZED

MISSION ACCOMPLISHED
*RAUCOUS APPLAUSE*

>>11792456
Just stick to medium difficulty. Medium difficulty is very well rounded.

>>11791842
>wasting napalm on two zombies
i can't fucking watch it.

>>11790898
Swat 4 is the only mediocre retro tactical shooter game. In fact, it's probably the least interesting tactical shooter game, ever.

>>11790863
Terra Nova: Strike Force Centauri was the first real proto-tactical shooter.

>>11792456
>mellow out the AI
Play Black Ops. He deliberately neutered the AI. I asked in the discord if I was remembering incorrectly about the older games, that I remembered them never being so deadly-accurate decades ago, and he pretty much said that the AI's capability was, while not based entirely on your CPU speed, were more limited in how fast they could operate based on your CPU. They are basically able to process vastly more game logic per tick, making their somewhat fair lethality turn into bullshit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvAVq2w5I4s

I believe this guy is playing using a virtualbox with more period-accurate settings, and as you can see, with the CPU limited, he isn't instantly headshotted when he rounds a corner.

>>11791135
every COD and Desu Sex is also tactics shooter?

>>11792885
I think he was using greentext to imply sarcasm.

>>11791115
SWAT 3?

What's the best tactical shooter for the feeling of leading a team of specialists with defined skillset deep in enemy territory? Kind of like Commandos but in first person (not the actual Commandos FPS game) and it doesn't have to be WW2

>>11793442
Vietcong

>>11791135
>>11791842
I think you guys are a bit stuck on the "simulation" aspect of tactical shooters, CS 1.6 is a tactical shooter by definition.

>>11793493
Then the definition is meaningless and any shooter that requires some level of strategy (IE, all of them) can be considered one. I don't think there's an aesthetic limit, Terra Nova is basically a proto Ghost Recon with mech suits.

>>11793493
Tactical shooters don't have to be "simulation", that's a mil-sim. Tactical shooters have to have a high degree of lethality, weapons ballistics, restricted carrying space, and an emphasis on placing strategy before intuition.

>>11785926 (OP)
Do you guys think that, with AI sloppa advancing the way it is, devs can make "randomized AI" campaigns off games like RS Siege? Things that won't take much off their ballooning AAAA budgets

>>11793632
Theoretically, but I doubt it'll be good. There's been random map generators for games like Doom for decades, but even if they've gotten better over time, they're still not all that great.

When was the last time a feature complete squad-based tactical shooter with a full campaign was released? All the recent ones like Ready or Not have been early access shit

>>11793654
Ready or Not is great, but probably Ghost Recon Breakpoint.

>>11793632
The best thing that AI will help with is creating better work pipelines to streamline development and make it faster and more efficient. It's going to be decades until we have AI that's capable of using tools to dynamically create entire maps with pacing, interactables, AI, and objectives without input from a knowledgeable dev lead.

>>11793493
>by definition.
What definition? State it for the record.

>>11793632
>>11793651
>>11793817
AI for map design is boring and lifeless, but using AI to do enemy.. AI (ugh, redundant terms) can be a lot more interesting. E.g. designing a map, plopping down the enemies, setting their overall end-goal objectives, and letting AI come up with their "battle plan" for how to achieve it. You might get broken buggy shit half the time, but you can also get some creative solutions designers hadn't considered or takes too long to work out every detail and conditional by hand.

I remember playing some Rainbow Six game on the N64 where you could plan out your AI squad members routes or some shit.

I never got past the second level.

>>11794224
and patience & no innocent life lost
thats t.a.c.t.i.c.a.l

>>11791120
The US Marines utilise Close Combat for training by the way

Anyone played this? For some reason it's extremely popular with Indians

Shit AI ruins any tactical conceit most of these games might have had. I played through Ghost Recon earlier this year and there's 0 tactical consideration in that game. In fact, the most efficient way to play that game is to just lone wolf it without baby sitting your braindead teammates. You could solo the whole game easily if not for the fact some levels have so many tanks you can't carry enough rocket launcher ammo to blow them all up so you have to let some retard tag along.
Rainbow Six is another offender. All the autistic line drawing in the planning phase is just illusory and the game is just a mediocre FPS with hitscan enemies in reality. The only even remotely tactical element present in that game is whether to breach a door or to flash it which is immaterial in the grand scheme of things.

>>11794520
>t. can't picture the apple

>>11785958
>socom 2
had the best level design of any shooter ive ever played. Enowapi is a genius map

>>11785926 (OP)
It depresses me seeing what Rainbow Six has turned into.

>>11795101
Ubisoft in general. Their games were good until 2005.

>>11787210
Crazy how easy it is to run on 4k

>>11791120
No, he probably just read the wikipedia page.

>>11794520
You're a retard who has no idea what he's talking about, and I think you're the same retarded faggot who shitposted in previous threads and got BTFO when he said there's zero tactics in Ghost Recon. Case and point:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2VdBxyPTtBA

>Rainbow Six is another offender. All the autistic line drawing in the planning phase is just illusory and the game is just a mediocre FPS with hitscan enemies in reality.
The line drawing is an illusion? Despite the fact that it literally allows your other teams to proceed through the map without you, and is quite literally just an exact 1 to 1 implemented game mechanic with zero "illusion" to it at all? Or, are you so fucking inbred dumb-shit stupid, that you literally think that planning the exact route from where and when to engage the enemy and approach objectives, involves "zero" tactics?

Oh, and I love this, the "hitscan enemies" meme, right, despite the fact that every single game had hitscan enemies in the 90's? Gotta love dipshit pseud-poser-posters. They're the glue that holds engagement together in these threads. We can all just gather round the campfire and roast their retarded shitty arguments while discussing amongst the more intelligent users here.

>The only even remotely tactical element present in that game is whether to breach a door or to flash it which is immaterial in the grand scheme of things.
Oh, right, and this shit-eating gob-smacked retard dipshittery. Yes, because flashing the enemies so they don't instantly execute the hostages is "immaterial" to the "grand scheme" of things, lmao. Get the fuck out of here, retard, and come back when you have a cogent argument that makes some fucking sense.

>>11794226
I know it's not great but you will never ever get another singleplayer Rainbow Six game that isn't a remaster, and it's the only way that companies would do it since all of the bloated budget has to go to middle management HR ladies, marketing and battle pass shit

>>11794635
devastating

>>11794520

>>11795395
Not crazy at all a gpu had like 64mb of vram kek

>>11795684
>You're a retard who has no idea what he's talking about, and I think you're the same retarded faggot
Thinking everybody who doesn't like your favorite toy is the same person is a sign of tubo autism. There's some retard on here that spergs out in a similar manner every time you say something negative about Morrowind as if it's impossible for multiple people to not like something.
And what's that video supposed to prove? Enemies shoot at you when they detect you? Wow, it's like literally any other FPS game ever made, so tactical.
I understand you're autistic so you don't have a grasp on theory of mind, but I literally played through Ghost Recon earlier this year. It doesn't matter what gay youtube videos you post when I experienced the game for myself and came to my conclusion based on that. Initially I tried to play tactically but the retarded AI kept letting me down, so I realized it was more efficient to just play this game like COD and proceed to blast through the remainder of the game easily.
>The line drawing is an illusion?
Yes, because the completely retard AI can't be relied on so it's a complete crapshoot whether or not they'll get lasered tag by an enemy when they round a corner. The most efficient way to play R6 is to lonewolf it while spamming smoke grenades.
If you're autistic and easily get lost in the fantasy of tacticool play pretend that's fine, but don't pretend these games have any depth.

>>11786449
https://www.moddb.com/mods/heroes-unleashed
you mean this? black ops combines the first 2 R6 games and expansions >>11789681
>https://www.moddb.com/mods/rainbow-six-black-ops-20
also just set window compatibly mode to XP works great with no wrapper on Win11

>>11793396
>SWAT 3?
Yes

ur fat and have no imagination.(tactics)

go play on the freeway. jk

>>11794501
Man the T-80's scared the crap out of me..
i really don't understand why nobody remasters this game for modern os, it's locked on 30 fps. it's a really clever game it's like a combination of fast tactics and fast draw - shoot before they shoot you first..

>>11796000
>is a sign of tubo autism
Making up retarded nonsense with zero evidence to back it up is a sign of schizophrenia.

>And what's that video supposed to prove? Enemies shoot at you when they detect you? Wow, it's like literally any other FPS game ever made
Mmm, so what do you consider "tactical" then? If suppression, taking cover, flanking, and using fire-and-advance methods aren't "tactics", then what are tactics to you exactly? Doing backflips off motor cycles? Driving tanks through the wall? What kind of stupid retarded shit are you referring to that you think they "could" be doing? Oh, right, you don't have an argument, you got BTFO, so your only course of action is to trivialize in order to delegitimize. It's a good thing literally nobody else agrees with you.

>It doesn't matter what gay youtube videos you post when I experienced the game
Okay, there's zero stealth in Metal Gear Solid and it's just a bunch of gay running around, and it doesn't matter what youtube videos you post when I experienced the game for myself and came to my conclusion based on that.

>it was more efficient to just play this game like COD and proceed to blast through the remainder of the game easily.
Nice LARP kid, but running-and-gunning will get you insta-killed since accuracy is based on movement and posture, so right off the bat I can immediately tell you're either lying, or completely embellishing for absolutely no reason other than you're a schizophrenic gay retard. It's borderline impossible to hit enemies at engagement distance while moving, unless you're lucky, and even then, you're going to get clipped in close-quarters environments quite easily.

So, you're a complete and total bullshitter unless you prove other-wise.

>The most efficient way to play R6 is to lonewolf it while spamming smoke grenades.
Nice LARP, there are no smoke grenades in R6 1 or 2, and in R6-3 snipers have thermals. Cope and seethe faggot tranny.

>>11794520
Wow, what a fucking idiot.

>>11796000
>>11796000
>anon posts video evidence of AI using tactics
>"NUH-UH, THAT'S NOT IN THE GAME, I PLAYED IT"

You stupid nigger, we can all watch the video of the game in action, you're the one playing pretend and acting like there isn't any depth.

>>11796000
Why are you lying?

>>11796000
>>11796000
Embarassing LARP.

>I played it like COD
No you didn't.

>I spammed smoke grenades
Smoke grenades are only in R3, and even then snipers have thermal goggles, so no you didn't.

You're lying so hard through your teeth, it's actually legitimately embarrassing, even for me.

>when I experienced the game for myself and came to my conclusion based on that.
No you didn't. I refuse to believe you actually played the game if that was your take-away. You're just a lying bullshitter until you prove other-wise. Post game time and upload a webm of you running through a level on Elite, playing exactly like you said you did. Since it was so efficient and easy, this should take you no more than...Probably 35 - 40 minutes, to complete the level, save the replay, record the replay, upload it to youtube, and post it here. I'll wait.

>>11796396
holy shit anon
it's not legal to own people like this

>>11787567
they should have made that Robocop game from the perspective of punks trying to fight mecha-cops while under-armoured alla X-COM against an oppresive gubmint

>>11798718
You could call it Liberty Crime Squad

>>11793442
idk maybe Ghost Recon cuz it has classes like riflemen and snipers since the first game as well as specialists