Thread 11823031

Post pleb opinions you HATE.
For me it's these
SMW: "bro you can fly over every level"
Yoshi's Island: "it's bad because of the crying baby"
SM64: "it's bad because you get booted out of a level every time"
Wario Land 3: "it's bad because of golf"
And of course the most plebian of them all:
"Sonic was never good, you need to go fast but you don't see where you're going and get hit"

>>11823031 (OP)
10% of retro games are better than 90% of modern games

>>11823031 (OP)
_______ fighting game is bad because of poor balance

>Sonic Adventure is soul
LMFAO

>console shooters are inherently bad because muh controller
I always find this one funny since it's only low skill players who have a problem adapting to either control scheme. Goldeneye or Quake 3, take your pick, I'll be the one fragging you either way.

>>11823047
I agree this kind of went out of control, but it just shows the divide between regular players and so-called fgc
The problem is though, once you start playing online, you quickly learn just HOW broken some old games are, it's just no fun when some characters simply destroy everyone. Tekken 4 is an example of a game so broken that even casuals knew something was off. T3 wasn't great either though, Ogre was just stupid and even then Jin was clearly OP.
If we're being honest here, virtually every old fighter isn't "balanced". Pre-patch era was rough.

"it's bad because it's hard"

>>11823031 (OP)
>Playing classic Mega Man is trivialized by the X series
>Playing pre-PS2 beat-'em-ups is pointless OR SOR2 is the only classic beat-'em-up you should play
>There is not a single game worth playing before the 4th generation outside of Mario 3 and Mega Man 2
>If you beat it using save states and rewinding (not grinding sections, beating the game in one sitting) you beat the game
>If you beat an arcade game in one sitting with multiple credits used you beat the game
>MUH ARTIFICIAL DIFFICULTY

>>11823118
What other bmups should I play beside Final Fight though? I only heard of that D&D one and AvP

I don't really care enough to hate but I like how many DID YOU KNOW memes came full circle:
>Yume Kojo: Doki Doki Panic started development as a Super Mario Bros. game, making DDP a reskin of a game that was going to be Mario.
>Super Mario: Yoshi's Island, in Japan, was originally going to be called SMB5: Island, making it a sequel to SMB4 (SMW), effectively being SMW2
>captain scales wasn't meant to be fought against in the original Dinosaur Planet and instead the final boss was a surprise giant floating head, just like Andross

>>11823031 (OP)
>the balance is bad because i was allowed to grind

>>11823031 (OP)
worst reddit pleb poser pseud fraud opinions:
>Deus Ex & MGS 2 predicted Le future
>REmake is the best remake ever!
>Reddit Hill 2 is a masterpiece
>God Hand is the best beat em up ever
>Okami is the best Zelda clone
>Vice City radio music is good
>Kefka is a good well written villain
>Aigis is the best P3 waifu
>furry Midna form is better than her sexy real form
>train mission in San Andreas is hard
>Kojima is a genius
>Isometeric DnD trash is peak RPG
>Oblivion guild quests are good
>FF Tactics story is great
>Chrono Trigger and/or FF7 is the best JRPG ever
>Rondo of Blood is hidden gem
>Sonic games were good

every time one of these threads pops up, someone takes it upon themselves to ignore the point and just say "popular thing bad"

>>11823165
oh yeah i totally forgot the most important one
>Dreamcast was not the garbage it always was
anyone who claims the Dreamcast is the best 6th gen console (believe me there is a LOT of retards saying this) deserves to be lobotomized

>>11823131
There's plenty:
>Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles III: The Manhattan Project, TMNT IV: Turtles in Time (try out the SNES game first, then arcade version aftewards), and TMNT: The Hyperstone Heist
>Other Konami arcade bmups: Violent Storm, The Simpsons (play with the 2P Jap version), and X-Men (also with the 2P Jap version)
>River City Ransom / Kunio-Kun games
>Batman Returns (SNES)
>Brawl Brothers (SNES)
>64th Street: A Detective Story (ARC)
>Captain America and the Avengers (ARC)
>Night Slashers (ARC)
>Cadillacs and Dinosaurs (ARC)
>Streets of Rage 1, 2, and 3 played with the "Bad End 1P", "Streets of Rage 2 Restoration", and "Streets of Rage 3 Project" patches respectively
I forgot the name of it, but there's another arcade one that started off on a cruise ship that allowed you to play as the bosses you defeated.

>>11823181
These aren't opinions, these are games.

IDK about wario land but Yoshi Island and Sonic 1 have problems

>Sonic

They're still trying to figure out Sonic and no level recaptures that Green Hill zone feeling

>Yoshi Island

Level design is kinda boring
In the other games it's nitpicky bullshit

>>11823031 (OP)
>"x game still holds up to modern standards and do not age. in fact you can reasonably....WAIT DON'T COMPARE IT TO THE REST OF THE SERIES! THAT ISN'T FAIR! YOU HAVE TO ONLY COMPARE IT TO GAMES MADE BEFORE IT'S RELEASE BECAUSE IT DOESN'T HOLD UP! I MEAN IT DOES BUT I DOESN'T. I MEAN IT DOES BUT...."

>>11823106
''it's good because it's hard'' is worse
>>11823176
>t.pleb

>>11823234
baldurs gate is this for me. It is boring as shit and has moments of genuinely awful game design and yet people will tell you that it is a timeless classic but will in the same breath contradict that the moment you start criticizing it's flaws and questioning it's "timelessness".

>>11823165
>Vice City radio music is good
based normie with a soul

>>11823031 (OP)
"Chrono Trigger is one of the best RPGs ever made"
it's not even one of the best rpgs for the super famicom. the reason people like it so much is because of Akira Toriyama's art and the fact that it is so easy.

>>11823286
It's more fun than any other game with Akira art.

>>11823043
but that's true

>>11823031 (OP)
"Dude, Street Fighter 2 is the best fighting game of all time"

>>11823313
Hyper Fighting is up there. Super Turbo is ass. the rest of the SF2 revisions aren't worth talking about.
The best fighting games of all time in no particular order are
SF2 Turbo Hyper Fighting
CvS2
MvC2
3rd Strike
Soul Calibur
GGXXAC
probably some KoF idk I don't play KoF

>>11823031 (OP)
>SM64: "it's bad because you get booted out of a level every time"
That *is* bad though. It's obnoxious padding and tedium.

Mario 64 is so fucking trash compared to Crash and Spyro.

>absolutely atrocious camera constantly getting stuck on terrain, spazzing out, facing the wrong direction, refusing to go where you want it to
>slippery and awkward controls, especially in underwater and snow levels
>2D Mario's momentum and physics work in a 2D environment where you always have a perfect view and perspective of the action; it's significantly worse in a 3D environment where you are constantly fighting the camera and there are fundamental limitations to perspective/depth perception
>these momentum and physics are especially egregious when the movement is relative to aforementioned awful automatic camera that refuses to go where you want
>constantly boots you out after every star and makes you retread each stage a half dozen times all the way from the beginning of the stage with a tiny stupid piecemeal change
>dial a combo system for platforming
>overall level/enemy/hazard design are extremely basic and boring
>constant easter egg hunt for random bullshit grows old very quick
It feels like a glorified fucking tech demo for 3D movement. You need fucking 6 inch thick nostalgia goggles to still convince yourself it holds up today

>>11823371
This guy's post.

>>11823371
filtered

>>11823371
Deepest and most fun/technical gameplay in any 3D plateforme game

Most speedrunned game of all time

Seeth casual

>>11823389
Why can't Mario 64tards EVER praise the game without mentioning speedtrooning and le deep movement because of parallel universes I saw in le ebin youtube video.

>>11823031 (OP)
"There's no difference between playing the game on it's original hardware on an old TV and playing it on your laptop with an Xbox controller"

>>11823398
Yeah because gameplay is not important in a plateforme game...

We should talk about the story of Mario 64 instead

>>11823031 (OP)
>SMW: "bro you can fly over every level"
this one is true though

>>11823389
Too bad the level design, enemy design, boss design, hazard design, and camera are all dogshit. The whole game is the platformer equivalent of the training mode of a fighting game.

>>11823031 (OP)
"Link has pink hair!!!!"
>this ruins the game somehow

>>11823367
>>11823121
The duality of man

>>11823408
>equivalent of the training mode of a fighting game
SM64 is almost perfect. You're talking about DMC

Zelda II being bad. Loathe this "opinion" because it's held by people that played the game for 10 minutes. Disliking the game because it's not ALTTP is nonsensical.

>>11823031 (OP)
>SMW: "bro you can fly over every level"
Not EVERY level but you can definitely fly over a whole lot of them.
>Yoshi's Island: "it's bad because of the crying baby"
That doesn't ruin the game but the sound is definitely really annoying.

>>11823419
that guy probably likes Super Turbo. those dudes are kinda special

>>11823291
every DQ game is better than Chrono Tranny
>>11823371
>It feels like a glorified fucking tech demo for 3D movement
that's what it is
>>11823389
>Most speedrunned game of all time
why are you dissing Mario 64 like this?
speedreddit is for mental ill fags it's not something to brag of

>>11823408
Their not (the bosses are very underdevelopped but it's not a big deal in a 3D plateforme game)

Mastering the camera is part of the skillset for Mario 64

Git gud

>>11823423
>SM64 is almost perfect.
Pure fucking delusion. The level design, enemy design, boss design, hazard design, and camera are all dogshit. Having good movement alone does not make a good game, not even close.

>>11823435
If a game has a huge speedrunning communauty it means it's deep and technical

Mario Galaxy is a beloved game but almost nobody Speedrun this game because the gameplay is shallow and simplistic+linear levels

Mario 64 has amazing gameplay and open level design = everyone Speedrun it

>Nintendo sold Rare because they became bad
Rare was still a top 5 western dev at that time and arguably understood Nintendo's own hardware better than they did.

>>11823448
Large speedtroonning community = autistic tranny fanbase more than anything

>>11823448
Mario Galaxy is fun to play and 100% as a game
Mario 64 is just an exploitable toolset for autistic trannies, barely even a videogame

>>11823446
>Level design

more inventive than any other mario game that came after or even before. Maybe SMW has better levels, but I say that as a guy who had the SNES as his first console

>Enemy design

Good for its time

>Boss design

irrelevant

>Hazard design

Are you sure you're not criticizing devil may cry ?

>>11823449
Nintendo never sold Rare.
Stamper auctioned Rare off himself, expecting Nintendo to pay any price to keep the studio exclusive. But Iwata realized he was being manipulated and called their bluff, so Microsoft wound up being the highest bidder.

>>11823463
>more inventive than any other mario game that came after or even before.
Lmao shut the fuck up, it's not even more inventive than SMB1 and the physics and camera are far superior and suited for a 2D game compared to a 3D one. SMB1 also has way less padding, tedium, and gay fucking easter egg hunts.

>>11823309
they'll never understand that its not nostalgia, theyre too busy thinking their 3 games they played over and over somehow beat the 10 good games that came out every year back then, its proof this generation is doesnt know what theyre talking about, why try

>>11823165
>MGS 2 predicted Le future
>REmake is the best remake ever!
>Vice City radio music is good
>Aigis is the best P3 waifu
>Rondo of Blood is hidden gem
>Sonic games were good

These are all correct, though?

>>11823165
All of these are correct, no matter how many years you've been doing this.

>>11823753
Not him, but the ironic thing about Vice City's radio music is that they already included what would have been the obvious and superior soundtrack choice in GTA 3 and couldn't do it again when they actually released VC.

>Final Fantasy is a broken buggy game in which 90% of the spells and items don't work!
>gen1 Pokémon is a broken buggy mess too
>Dragon Quest 2 is an unbalanced game, even the devs said so!!
>You shouldn't level up in Final Fantasy VIII
>You should hit your own guys in Final Fantasy II

However all of that is chump change compared to the ultimate opinion
>This needs a remake/remaster/etc so I can finally play it!!!

>>11823234
Games dont age but they can still be seen as unpleasant through the lens of modern sensibilities. Thats not a critique of the game its a critique of the people.

>>11823951
Anyone that uses words like "hold up" or "aging" shows that they don't really like old games, they just likes a certain modern idea of "retro gaming"

>>11823371
>My opinion is forged through objective criticism and a deep understanding of what makes a game good
>It is just a coincidence that all the games I consider good were on my favorite console growing up and all the games I hate are on a console I have a vendetta against for no reason.

>>11823960
It's the complete opposite though. I grew up with both systems, but mostly played N64. I played Crash growing up but didn't actually even complete the games until the N.Sane trilogy and then went back and beat the originals. Mario 64 is just a shit game.

>>11823085
when you come from PC shooters, playing with a controller is like intentionally crippling yourself. Yes, you can adapt to it, but it's not fun. Gyro was a godsend for console shooters.
>>11823371
>That *is* bad though. It's obnoxious padding and tedium.
How is that padding lmao? You finish a level, you get back to the world map or castle in this case. Simple as. The way Oddyssey does it is "streamlined" for zoomies and faggots that just want to rush through the game to keep their endorphine levels up, because otherwise they lose interest and go back to their gacha "game" of choice.
>Mario 64 is so fucking trash compared to Crash and Spyro
lmao. Crash is decent, but limited. Spryo is rather mid.
>>11823958
exactly. they just want to be with "it", because retro games are "it" in gaming. That's why they also say that remasters and remakes are good and make the game better/playable.

>>11823085
>always find this one funny since it's only low skill players

Those games have auto aim

>>11823939
>>gen1 Pokémon is a broken buggy mess too
this isn't an opinion, it's a fact

>>11823031 (OP)
People hate DKC3 because the baby! He RUINS the game!
Maximo is like a modern Ghosts n Goblins!

>>11823031 (OP)
I just dont like italians senpai

>>11823043
More like over 99.0%

>>11823085
Thinking controllers are a real way to play FPSs is the actual pleb opinion.

>>11823992
>You finish a level,
You repeat it 6 more times with tiny piecemeal changes because fuck you padding

>>11824659
Valid opinion when you're 12 and the game just came out. The fact that people may still think like that is ridiculous, though.

>>11823992
>when you come from PC shooters, playing with a controller is like intentionally crippling yourself. Yes, you can adapt to it, but it's not fun. Gyro was a godsend for console shooters.

When im playing solo or in a non competitive ranked match shit, I rather sit and be comfortable using a controller, over leaning forward and irritating my wrists using a keyboard and fast movements with a mouse.

>>11824659
>Maximo is like a modern Ghosts n Goblins!
How is it not? They very clearly copied direct elements from it. Unless you are irritated that people say "modern" and not "3D".

>>11823118
>If you beat it using save states and rewinding (not grinding sections, beating the game in one sitting) you beat the game
This rewinding one is crazy, might as well just be playing with invincibility cheated on at that point.

>>11824728
I believe some of Square's re-releases of classic Final Fantasy games have cheat codes mapped to buttons, just so you don't have any trouble with their games designed to be beaten by girls.

>>11823753
mgs2 was talking about things that had already happened

>>11823753
>Vice City radio music is good
I wouldn't know as I always had it set to VCPR. I always preferred the satirical ads and talk shows.

>>11823043
Ten years ago, I would have disagreed with this, but the AAA industry truly is stagnant and dull now.

>>11823371
Lmao, actually retarded.

>>11823406
It's true for a minority of levels.

>>11823939
>>11824625
Gen 1 is pretty buggy, but not to the point that the game is completely broken or unplayable, most of the bugs are small time things which are easy to miss, or things which you'd have to go out of your way to do. People might not necessarily realize that something IS a bug when they notice something, just thinking "Huh, why did that happen?"

It's common for people to go through the game and not notice many, if any bugs at all. The game is still playable and well designed overall.

>>11824735
Then they'll think they had the actual game experience of these

>>11824768
My friend recently gave me all of his old versions of games, like ps1 Final Fantasys, Resident Evil 3 for Dreamcast and some Pokemon games, because he is satisfied with just having their more modern equivalent re-releases and remakes.

>>11824794
Eh, who plays final fantasy on a PS1?

>>11823031 (OP)
SMW only has a dozen exits. The rest are post-game and don't count.

>>11823313
Oh, wow — Street Fighter II is the best fighting game of all time? No way! What a revolutionary, never-before-seen opinion straight from 1993! I can only imagine the mental gymnastics it took to come to that conclusion after 30 years, multiple sequels, entire genre evolutions, and actual functioning netcode.

Let me guess: "It just feels right," right? Because nothing says definitive excellence like sweaty palms in an arcade cabinet while Guile loops his theme.

But sure, let’s keep crowning it of all time — as if nobody’s ever played anything since and as if “of all time” wasn’t already stretched thinner than Dhalsim’s spine. It’s like a sacred chant at this point. SF2, of all time, whispered like it’s carved into the fighting game commandments.

>DKC3 is the worst of the trilogy because it has a baby
If anything, it's the best result of the collectathon they tried to achieve with the other two games.
People mistake liking Stickerbush Symphony with liking the whole game and this song being a magnum opus of music is a meme I have no idea how it started.

>>11823939
>>Final Fantasy is a broken buggy game in which 90% of the spells and items don't work!
>>gen1 Pokémon is a broken buggy mess too
These two are facts tho, not a pleb opinion.

this thread reads like you retards are actually watching "please give me money for these controversial opinions I stole from elsewhere" video essays, getting mad at them and bitching about them here

>>11825591
stop watching video essays, ese

>>11823031 (OP)
A true patrician does not concern himself with the opinions of plebians. He holds to his opinions based on their intrinsic merit rather than whether or not they conform to the consensus of others.

>>11823047
I'll do you one better
>[single player game] is unbalanced

>>11825895
Never saw anyone complaining about this until after the "nuzlocke" playstyle really took off in the community and everyone started to autistically delve into the mechanics of what was always intended to be an extremely casual RPG.

>>11824767
The bugginess is overstated because people are now tired of all the Gen 1 pandering in the series and want to lash out at it

>>11823151
>>11825895
>>11825917
ok now you're just trolling

>it's a kid's game!
nigger video games are for kids

>>11824718
fuck off from this thread then? that's the most plebian slop opinion possible.

>>11825941
for kids!

>>11823753
mgs2 did predict the future just on a much, much shorter timescale and technically the event occurred slightly before mgs2 was released.

>>11823309
>>11823043
>>11823709
depends on the genre or the game imo.

most retro games are brainlessly easy and the people who say otherwise have gaslit themselves on the romanticized nostalgia of playing them as a dumb kid who didn't know better.

>>11823085
i prefer the modern version of this where it's PC players seething about cross play because auto aim on consoles prevents them from being pubstompers.

t. someone who plays on PC with keyboard & mouse.

>>11823958
>>11823992
wolfenstein 3D is an example of a game aging badly not because it's difficult, complicated or awkward to play but because it's legitimately a boring slog with little to no variety in anything in the game.

>>11825942
Sorry I dont want carpel tunnel from wagglin my wrists against a desk.

>>11825946
This was just to prevent pearl-clutching conservatives from complaining too much. Everyone knows that the primary audience of M-rated games like GTA and CoD are/were kids.

>>11823249
fucking thank you
baldur's gate 1 is boring dogshit and I will never claim otherwise for petty imageboard cred

>>11824742
There was no "AAA industry" back then. Ever since it became a thing it was bad Hollywood wannabe slop.

>>11823118
>If you beat it using save states and rewinding (not grinding sections, beating the game in one sitting) you beat the game

if you play with rewind on a game like mario world or any mega man you're a fucking pussy. i agree wholeheartedly

>>11826119
>there was no AAA industry in 2015
you're absolutely fucking retarded.

>>11826119
>>11826140
>2015 was ten years ago

>>11823118
>Playing pre-PS2 beat-'em-ups is pointless
That's a weird one, I was firmly of the belief that the BMU genre was largely dead by that point, unless you consider things like GOW to be a BMU

>>11826156
Even the normalfags are losing track of time. There's an ad for that LifeVac thing where they depict their commercial from "10 years ago" playing on a small CRT TV.

>>11825920
Unironically every Pokémon game should handle its levels like GSC

>>11826027
>>11825587
>>11824625
Plebs detected

>>11826027
>because it's legitimately a boring slog with little to no variety in anything in the game.
oh, and those type of games don't exist anymore today, yes? Have these games also "aged badly"? But how? They're brand new.
Games don't age, there are only good games and the rest.

>>11824702
you don't have to complete a world 100% at once, or at all.

>>11823031 (OP)
The whole SKG thing is complete plebian reddit leftist communist retardation

>>11826556
Games do "age" (autismos need to stop getting so caught up in semantics) in the sense that they could be considered great in their era but later games come along and do things better, generally when it comes to mechanics. System Shock 1 is a game that has aged poorly because of its utterly primitive FPS controls.

>>11826569
Not being able to adapt to different control schemes isn't a sign of evolution but of de-evolution

>>11826575
It's not a matter of an inability to adapt, it's a lack of desire to do so. Few would want to bother with such an absurdly clunky interface when we've since become used to far more fluid and intuitive control schemes. System Shock 1's controls don't bring anything positive to be worth learning, they're just weird and clunky because developers hadn't quite nailed down the genre standard yet.

>>11824724
Literally ONLY the first level is anything like GnG and only visually. The game is not difficult, well designed, exciting, or anyway similar to GnG outside of that first level.

>>11826580
>It's not a matter of an inability to adapt, it's a lack of desire to do so.

That's not any different, not willing to play something unless it plays just like everything else isn't a proof that the game "aged", it's a proof that the player has become lazy with a one sided taste. In this particular case SS was built like an RPG anyway, not an FPS, and it's not like the game was balanced with modern controls in mind.
Different controls or physics are part of what makes old games interesting, unlike today where everything has to conform to the same norm otherwise it's deemed as "bad design". Same concept with how every platformer has to be Mario nowadays, or with people claiming random encounters are "bad design". They call this "games aging", I call this de-evolution of the player base.

>>11826569
>Games do "age"
My pet peeve is being sent back 10 minutes upon death. You could talk about rental or arcade game design, but at the end of a day it just reminds me of how time is fleeting and wasted on continues.

>>11826613
>That's not any different, not willing to play something unless it plays just like everything else isn't a proof that the game "aged", it's a proof that the player has become lazy with a one sided taste.
It's proof that developers weren't exactly sure how to implement certain control mechanics until someone came along and did it right. It's been a process of refinement; going back to crude old methods that nobody uses anymore for good reason is simply unpleasant.

>>11823106
To be fair, it's good because it's hard is just as annoying. People don't understand what balance is anymore.

>>11826569
>>11826580
>>11826636
You have a bizarre way of thinking. Your conclusions are being jumped to without any logic.
Also
>it's the game's fault I don't want to learn

>>11826580
>far more fluid and intuitive control schemes.
Debatable.

>>11826597
It's entirety is designed around the same basic ideas. The multistage armor loss and power ups, the transformations, the continue system and intentionally placed items where death is guaranteed if you fuck up and the way enemies react to you, are all clearly taking inspiration to how the GnG games played/designed. Now it's sequel, that definitely leaned closer into its own thing, but Maximo 1 had a very clear inspiration for its design all the way through, even if its not absolutely 1:1 in every aspect.

>>11823031 (OP)
>SMW: "bro you can fly over every level"
Yeah, you can fly over the majority of levels. Is that a problem?

>>11826580
I would hesitate to call System Shock's controls "dated" or "clunky" (I'd hesitate to call anything clunky because it's a filler word). The controls are simply different from what became the standard. And that's not a fault of the game, or even necessarily a fault at all. You've adapted to the homogenized control scheme that all games feel they need to conform to in order to avoid misplaced criticisms just like this, often for the worse.
System Shock has some aspects that warrant criticism, for sure. But your inability or unwillingness to engage with a game on its terms reflects soley on yourself.

>>11826119
Are you ACTUALLY brain damaged? The AAA industry absolutely existed 10 years ago, the word first started being used like 20 years ago.

>>11825926
Not entitely untrue, but it was also played up by tourneyfags, and it's a bit more relevant and legitimate in their case, because if you start trying to strategize and minmax to try to be the best of the best, THEN you're gonna start noticing that "Wait, what the fuck? This move is doing the opposite of what it's supposed to/not actually doing anything at all!" and stuff like that.

Still not unplayable, but it just wasn't quite tight with its battle mechanics.

>>11826812
>This move is doing the opposite of what it's supposed to/not actually doing anything at all!" and stuff like that.
Stuff like that is unforgivable.

>>11826569
I think the most obvious example of games "aging poorly" is when a lot of their in-era appeal relied on graphics or sheer novelty. That's not to say they're bad or unenjoyable in current year, but they don't hold the same appeal that they did when they were new. Like Super Mario Bros is a fun experience with fun, tight gameplay and interesting levels, which hold up well even against modern platformers.
On the other hand, you have Hogan's Alley, which is still a fun game, but the simple mechanics of "shoot bad guy, don't shoot good guy" are presented so basically in Hogan's Alley and are such a long-lasting staple of lightgun game mechanics which have been done so many times since, and in more unique ways, that I can't imagine too many people would want to spend more than 15 minutes playing it before switching over to something like Police Trainer, Lethal Enforcers, Area 51, Maximum Force, Virtua Cop, The House of the Dead, etc etc. Wolfenstein 3D is another good example of a game which helped lay a great foundation for maze-based FPS mechanics, and is still fun to play, but I think you'd be very hardpressed to find somebody who would argue that the simple and limited enemy roster, repetitive stages, and mindless wall-humping hold up as nearly as well as Doom, a game which has not aged poorly.

>>11826827
It's not GOOD, but it's just blemishes on what's otherwise still a good game.

>>11823709
>filtered by a good game
>"it's just nostalgia reeee"
sad

>>11826832
It's a huge flaw for someone playing without prior knowledge. You can't trust the basic gameplay? Fuck that.

No wonder there's so many
>i start game, what am i in for??
threads

>>11826268
I almost agree, but the game would benefit from a soft level cap.
As much as I hate that typical Pokemon players use them as excuses to grind (because they're fucking retards), the base intention is to keep players from becoming over-leveled. Which is fairly easy to do on accident in GSC because of the nonlinearity between Ecuteak and Blackthorn, as well as the nature of post-league Kanto. Discretely limiting exp gain after certain levels between progression flags would leave normal people unaffected, while keeping Pokebrains' terminal autism in check.
That would alleviate most, if not all of the balance complaints, self-inflicted as they are.

>>11826580
>kbd and mouse is a well regarded control standard for decades
>gyro controller aim comes out
>suddenly kbd and mouse is literally unplayable because developers hadn't quite nailed down the genre standard yet
that's what you sound like

>>11826851
>You can't trust the basic gameplay? Fuck that.
The vast majority of the basic gameplay still functions though. It's mostly stat-boosting moves like Focus Energy which don't work properly, and stat-deboosting moves, and you don't need those by any means to get by (in fact, since the enemy AI uses those, you're unwittingly given a free advantage at times, as they unwittingly waste a turn, deboost themselves, or boost you).

As a kid, I noticed none of these, because my dumb kid ass decided that "A move, but it doesn't do any damage? Pass." I was not tactically minded at the age of 6.
The battles are a bit sloppy, but for the most part they still work, most people never noticed most of these at the time.

You literally do not need any secret or esoteric knowledge to play Gen 1, it's so fucking easygoing and straightforward that any dumbfuck will be able to charge through the game with just half of an idea of what they're doing. That's why you don't need to ask any questions about how and where to start, you simply start and go.

>>11826985
>it's so fucking easygoing and straightforward
It would be less so, if other options worked and were balanced.

Kids could grind, experienced players could try other options and succeed. Optional complexity in a JRPG.

>>11823031 (OP)
>Yoshi's Island: "it's bad because of the crying baby"
That one's true though. Well, also because of other things, but that certainly doesn't help the situation.
Looks decent though.

>>11827093
Just don't lose Mario, noob.

>lives bad
>score bad

>>11826597
Not true. For instansce there are levels after the first one which have terrain that go up and down when you get close to them which is a direct reference to the SNES game. Then there is the entire chest->equipment system, including enemies that spawn from chests for negative effects like turning you into something else
Just a couple of examples because there is more if you dig

the second Maximo however, that one is more like "I want to be Devil May Cry" because everyone got filtered by the first game precisely because it was the closest thing anyone's ever done to a 16-bit action sidescroller but in 3D.

>>11828484
Lives good but I think we can agree unlimited continues are the way to go. (With the lone exception being arcade games)

>>11828712
Depends on the game. Metal Warriors on SNES was a very memorable game for me because due to the limited number of games I *really* had to master every level in the game and every ability for most mechs. With unlimited continues I'd never have learnt to get as good since each level would have done with first time they're beaten, which doesn't equal mastering them or getting really good at the game.
I'd say unlimited continues can be good for certain games or kinds of games but not for everything but generally limited forces the player to really get good, which is why so many modern players have issues with it, because they don't understand the concept of getting good even though it used to be the driving force of video games.

>>11826741
>I'd hesitate to call anything clunky because it's a filler word
no the fuck it isn't lol

>>11826851
>It's a huge flaw for someone playing without prior knowledge
you mean like literally everyone who played in 98 and had no issues whatsoever?
gee, boss, I think you're having a meltdown over nothing here.

>>11826951
gyro controller aim sucks though

>>11828785
It is. You might as well be calling it icky or gross.

>>11828795
categorically false. "clunky" is a single-word way to say that the controls and/or gamefeel are not smooth or natural, that you are fighting the engine to get the game to do what you want.
just because you're too ignorant to know what words mean doesn't make them actually meaningless.

>>11824659
Kiddy does suck aesthetically. They really should have used D.K instead. Mechanically Kiddy is great though. Kiddy certainly doesn't ruin the game. It's better than DKC1 if anything.

>>11823031 (OP)
>Circle of the Moon sucks!

The whole "I don't play hard games to respect my time" thing, while the same people will 100% modern slop games or binge-watch netflix. The same line of thinking being applied to figuring out what to do rather than following the walkthrough.

In any other context, games being playable for longer is widely considered a positive thing. Also that you can easily just have fewer total played a year.

>it's only hard because of rentals
>quarter muncher
>designed to sell strategy guides

also the classic
>devs and players back then just didn't know better

>>11829170
>This game just doesn't respect my time!
>brb I gotta doomscroll on tik&tok one more hour since I've only done it for 3 hours today

>>11828809
Except when people throw it around for everything that doesn't play like modern games. Like claiming Castlevania is "clunky"

> fighting the engine to get the game to do what you want.
Games aren't always designed to let the player do everything they want, each game can have its own set of rules and control limitation that the design is based around. But the mentality behind users of the word "clunky" is usually "I should be able to do X thing in this game because I can do it in this other game", otherwise it's "clunky" or "devs hadn't figured out how to do it right yet", when in reality it's like saying Go should have the same rules of checkers

>>11823031 (OP)
>SM64: "it's bad because you get booted out of a level every time"
I don't think anybody actually thinks SM64 is *bad* solely because of this. I only ever hear this point brought up in comparison to Banjo Kazooie, and the only reason they're bringing it up is because they simply prefer BK's system of staying in the level to keep coooolecting

>>11828809
>the controls are not smooth or natural
I don't think that applies to System Shock. It's just as smooth as any other FPS, it just uses different keybinds that you aren't used to.
What was more likely, and is now obvious, is that you couldn't articulate your complaint and relied on what you believed to be a catch-all descriptor for "it feels bad and I don't like it".
>gamefeel
lmao
>just because you're too ignorant
Didn't you get filtered by System Shock?

>>11829170
it depends. i tried playing kenshi and quit after about ten hours because i couldn't shake the feeling of the game wasting my time. it's a matter of how much content i experience per unit of time. i spent at least ninety percent of my time in kenshi watching my squad run across a completely empty and lifeless world or recovering in beds for ten minutes after a two minute long fight followed by fifteen minutes of limping slowly back to town. it was a massive time waster with a very poor content to time ratio. another design i can't tolerate is placing a difficult boss fight with an unexpected mechanic ten or more minutes ahead of a save point forcing the player to replay the same ten minutes of game twice. first to encounter the boss and learn about the mechanic, and second to adapt strategy or equipment and defeat the boss. if there's going to be an unusual mechanic in an upcoming fight there should be some warning if even just an npc giving hints about it. expecting the player to fail in order to learn is just lazy design and immersion breaking.

>>11829215
>Except when people throw it around for everything
people using words wrong does not preclude there being a right way to use them
>>11829250
>I don't think that applies to System Shock.
I literally never said it did. I was just explaining what people mean by "clunky".
you're having a schizo argument with a figment of your imagination.

>>11829257
>I literally never said it did.
So you're jumping to the defense of someone who used "clunky" as a filler word, without knowing the context?

>>11829253
>expecting the player to fail in order to learn is just lazy design and immersion breaking.
Dumb comment, having the player fail is what keeps games interesting. If you know what you did wrong for next time, then this is good design.

>>11829279
I'm not defending anybody. I merely explained that "clunky" is not inherently a filler word.
I'm sorry i don't take dumbshit 4chan arguments over matters of zero consequence as seriously as you do, I guess?

>>11829289
You seem to take them pretty seriously, considering you weren't involved until you chose to be.

>>11826059
>Banjo-Kazooie
>good
miss me with that collectathon cringe

>>11829283
not having the player fail, but expecting the player to fail and even setting them up to fail sometimes. like trapped rooms that instakill the player without any warning in a game that hasn't had any traps for the first three quarters of the game. the only way to reasonably know the trap is there is to run into it. you reload and the trap is easily avoided the second time. it's just time wasting faux difficulty. i remember playing a game a couple years ago that actually led you to a switch and told you to pull it only to have the switch trigger a trap that killed you. i wish i could remember what game it was, it was like a splinter cell clone on psx or ps2.

>>11829253
>it's a matter of how much content i experience per unit of time
Well put. I like a challenge, and the "run back" or recovery should be carefully crafted. I don't want to spend more time on failures than the challenges themselves.

>>11829253
>it depends. i tried playing kenshi and quit after about ten hours because i couldn't shake the feeling of the game wasting my time. it's a matter of how much content i experience per unit of time. i spent at least ninety percent of my time in kenshi watching my squad run across a completely empty and lifeless world or recovering in beds for ten minutes after a two minute long fight followed by fifteen minutes of limping slowly back to town. it was a massive time waster with a very poor content to time ratio.
Have to agree here, MMOs are another one like this, at least for FF11, with all the drawn-out waiting to heal and walking across the map

>>11829301
I read something I disagreed with and I voiced my disagreement. that's not really that big a deal.
you're getting upset about... whatever you think all this is. maybe take a break from posting for a while.

>>11829334
>i don't take it seriously
>FUCK YOU
lol

>>11829340
you keep making stuff up in your own head and pretending it's what I said or mean to say. it's really weird.
it's definitely time to stop posting, anon.

>>11828809
Clunky is the word I'd use to describe the Russian 1895 Nagant revolver because it has an awkward and fiddly handling for reloading which is comically behind its time (along with the world's heaviest fucking trigger).
Compare to the famous Colt Peacemaker, which set the bare baseline for this in 1873, then various revolvers by Smith & Wesson, Galand, Webley, Merwin & Hulbert, etc, which were smooth and lightning fast compared even to the Colt.

Taking this back to videogames, clunky to me typically is how I describe something which handles particularly awkwardly in a way which I feel is considerably behind its contemporaries, ergo, most everyone else was doing these things much better at the same time and so this thing was needlessly inferior and unrefined.

Ironically though, the best example I can think of regards a game which I love and which is mostly very fast, smooth, and precise. Doom, a game which was cutting edge in 1993.
Doom was built for mouse and keyboard, horizontal input with the mouse is used for horizontal turning, smooth and excellent, but vertical input with the mouse translates to forward and backwards movement, which is fine for Wolfenstein 3D (great, even, I love it in that game), but for Doom this kind of input handles and feels like complete shit, actually robbing you of smoothness and precision in looking and moving.
Everyone in the world agreed that this is the case, thus why virtually nobody plays Doom with the vertical movement input, back in the 90s people would use programs like NOVERT.exe, and all the fan sourceports and the official new ports lets you disable that input, so you can have perfectly clean horizontal turning which doesn't jitter the player back and forth.

>>11829383
You NEED to stop taking this so seriously.

>>11829439
I'm not taking it seriously at all, which is more than I can say for you

>>11828484
I like when score does stuff besides for end game stats.

>>11829443
shush

>>11829508
Makes SA2 enjoyable despite all the jank.

Pokemon, specifically gen 1, has horrible opinions from both extremes about it.
On one hand, you have people nitpicking very little thing nobody cares about (you can see it in this very thread), but on the other end you have people hitting any genuine critique with "the game is good because it's shit!".

>>11829880
>specifically gen 1
as a /vp/fag i can tell you it's the whole series

>>11829880
the thing is that 1st gen are the only good pokemon games.
all pokemon games are complete dogshit as games, but the 1st gen at least had soul.

>>11823371
Woah there, faggot. Quit while you're ahead. Do not compare Crash to Mario 64.

Spyro is a good comparison as far as collectathons go, but both games have separate merits and vibes.

You can go fuck yourself if I am going to pretend like you're trying to get away with saying Spyro is better.

Spyro's music, levels, and platforming is fun. However the moves you can pull off in Super Mario 64 if you have a lot of confidence is phenomenal.

Both games are fun though, none are better than each other.

Back to the dumb Crash comparison though, it's a fun time piece but is not an open world romp like Spyro and Mario 64. It is truly more like a sidescroller but in 3D with one direction forward to beat a level.

>>11829891
Amen.

>>11830253
*are fun, whoops

>>11826802
>The AAA industry absolutely existed 10 years ago, the word first started being used like 20 years ago.
The 90's was more than 20 years ago.

>>11830305
Yes, but the specific wording of AAA is something like two decades old.

>>11823031 (OP)
You sound like an infantile baby who screeches and flails his fat little limbs over how other people play video games.

>>11823951
>Games dont age but they can still be seen as unpleasant through the lens of modern sensibilities.
Saying a piece of entertainment or art "ages" or "shows it's age" is a common idiom that describes revisiting older works via the "lens of modern sensibilities." It's actually a sentiment older than video games. It doesn't mean "nobody should revisit old stuff." If this bothers you I can only assume it's because of a lack of familiarity with the English language or that you are insecure in your identity and choose to define yourself by the media you consume.

>>11823131
Violent Storm is insanely good for its time and easily holds up, especially with Boris.

>>11823131
AvP, D&D, SoR1 and 2 are staples. If you don't mind 3D I think Crisis Beat is fun as long as you play as the blonde wrestler girl. Growl is pretty crazy but not a fantastic game, you can beat it in like half an hour. The Rushing Beat series is pretty fun, I can't remember what it's called in english but one of the games even had a color editor so you could fully customize your characters' palettes. I really really like Two Crude Dudes but it's not exactly a classic Final Fight style beat em up. Play the arcade version if you can, but if you want to play it on console the PAL version is actually the most balanced version since they patched out some of the easy boss loops.

>>11831718
I understand what the idiom means I am just pushing back against it because its stupid. Your statement attacking the security of my identity is unhinged though I have no idea where you pulled that out from.

>>11823939
>You shouldn't level up in Final Fantasy VIII

I tell people not to level up but I don't mean "stay at level 3 the entire game and never gain exp." I just mean not to bother leveling up as a specific goal. Grinding for levels isn't really harmful but it's kind of pointless and unnecessary. If you're overleveled but your junctions suck you're still going to be fucked and if your junctions are good you don't need to be overleveled.

It bothers me that VIII eliminated the need for grinding entirely and people still did it anyway

>>11823031 (OP)
>"Sonic was never good, you need to go fast but you don't see where you're going and get hit"
THIS. I can't stand how this comes up in pretty much every Sonic thread, and how the people saying it often feel like they're intelectual critics who just get video games better than Sonic fans, when in reality they just suck at video games.

>>11832628
I just recognize my own limitations instead. I'm simply NOT good at all at really fast sidescrollers.

>>11832026
It is just retards taking a true statement "you shouldn't grind in FF8" and twisting it into something retarded.
They do the same in the Romancing Saga games. You shouldn't grind in those either, but people will say that you should avoid all encounters which will lead to you being too weak and not getting any good skills.

>>11832647
Fair enough, anon. If it helps, for Sonic specifically, just make sure to press down to roll into a ball frequently, it should make it a lot more manageable.

>>11832647
Sonic is not so much about "reaction" as it is about memorization. Sonic 2 is MADE to be replayed. They actually understood that without saves, you'd always start at zone 1. So they made this zone absolutely huge, with so many routes it never gets boring. You memorize things through repeating plays.

>RE4 is a good game which is better than the classics before it and better than its own remake
People who like the original RE4 are truly braindead retards, and yes, the remake is better than the original because now I don't move like a lego man

>>11823031 (OP)
>Post pleb opinions you HATE.
low frame rate = game bad

>>11832628
I assume these people don't really hate the games, but the fandom and extended media. Both are absolutely horrid, autistic and borderline retarded.

>>11823031 (OP)
>"Sonic was never good, you need to go fast but you don't see where you're going and get hit"
Agreed, you litcherally have no taim to react at the original resolution. Nobody reacts to visual stimuli that fast. Thankfully, due to modern remakes and hacks, we can play in widescreen. And tallscreen too. Pic/vid related is MUCH better.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IqsA86a_6T8

>>11833676
>sonic zoom out.jpg

Zooming out Indeed.

>>11832662
Grinding in all three Romancing Sagas still helps more than it hurts. People say not to because it makes the enemies stronger, but you're still perpetually ahead of them. Grinding is just an inefficient way to progress when you could win much faster just by changing your approach.