Thread 11999870

What are some stealth games that aren't just trial and error? Maybe it's a skill issue, but playing Tenchu (PS1) I have a lot of trouble scouting out for enemies and they end up finding me first. I like games where playing almost undetected without failing once is possible, hard, but possible. Basically, games where scouting is fundamental
I think good examples are Metal Gear Solid (specially 3 and 4) and Assassins Creed 1 (with the intel missions). I've also tried a bit of Splinter Cell 1 and liked it quite much.

>>11999870 (OP)
What do you mean by trial and error? Like if you get caught you might as well reload and try again? Or games that are flexible and allow for a lot of improvisation?

For /vr/ era stealth, I’d probably recommend Bloody Money for flexibility and forgiving mistakes. Thief is great for improvisation but does not forgive mistakes. You already mentioned Snake Eater, that game is easy as shit and incredibly flexible.

You’ve touched on most of the good series already except Deus Ex.

>>11999870 (OP)
>I have a lot of trouble scouting out for enemies and they end up finding me first.
Aren't you paying attention to the thing on the hud that shows distance from an enemy?

Try Mark of Kri. There are big benefits with doing stealth kills one shotting enemies and disabling enemies that alert others. You also have the ability to fight off enemies as well, but later on they become much more armored.

>>11999870 (OP)
unpopular opinion: stealth games are the most fun when you treat it like a series of stealth puzzles and just reload when you get spotted. the soft fail state stuff where you say fuck it and cheese enemy guards by running away out of the area has never felt good.
>sorry you failed, you have to play this crappier game now

>>11999870 (OP)
>I've also tried a bit of Splinter Cell 1
try Chaos Theory. (and also Intravenous 2, though not retro, it's like a love letter to SC trilogy)
>>12000010
>unpopular opinion
>proceeds to state a very popular opinion
I do agree with you but come on anon

>>11999870 (OP)
Splinter Cell Chaos Theory seems really cool. Especially the Amon Tobin soundtrack <3

Bonanza Bros is (believe it or not) a cute little stealth game. Well worth playing if you haven't. And it's great with 2 players.

>>11999870 (OP)
Pac-Man.

>>12000010
Yeah but at the same time I feel like I'm missing out on using all the tools the game gives me. MGS 3 is a good example, you have all these weapons and they're mostly useless if you're going for a stealth approach. Granted there's still a lot of equipment the game lets you use while doing that. It's even worse in V.

>>11999892
>What do you mean by trial and error? Like if you get caught you might as well reload and try again? Or games that are flexible and allow for a lot of improvisation?
I mean games where I'm not just trying to learn the layout from memory, in stead I should be given the tools to scout and plan without getting caught. Games where guard spots change when reloading are a big plus.

>>11999906
>Aren't you paying attention to the thing on the hud that shows distance from an enemy?
I am, but I'm still getting caught again and again. The camera is sometimes very misleading. Maybe I should just git gud? I like the game and passing the stages isn't hard, but sometimes I feel getting a good score is mostly learning where everything is.

>>12000010
>stealth games are the most fun when you treat it like a series of stealth puzzles and just reload when you get spotted
In my opinion, the most fun comes from being able to avoid being spotted at all by being very careful and analyzing before acting. Some games (specially newer games where stealth isn't the main focus) don't give you the tools to do that, though.

>>12000191
I'll play all SC games eventually, I really liked what I played of 1. Intravenous seems cool, I might give it a try after

>>11999870 (OP)
Sly Cooper 1?
3 games of the series are on plus deluxe.

>>12000010
That kills all tension and is why so many old stealth games don't hold up. It also makes the consequences of getting spotted utterly pointless since you will never engage with them and removes all semblance of challenge.
They know you can just (and will) rely on savescumming so why put any effort in making good level design and enemy patrol routes that feel fair but still offer some challenge or consistent enemy ai.
Thief TDP (and Metal Age in a few cases), the first Splinter Cell and early Hitman games are kinda shit as stealth games because of this.
People defend this by saying "just don't savescum" but then you give that a go and find out how poorly telegraphed guards are, how inconsistent AI is and how obvious solutions don't seem to work how you would expect them, among other issues.

>>12001358
And before someone says filtered or whatever, I've finished all these games many times.

Chaos Theory and Thief 2 are probably considered the best.
I prefer Thief 3 though.

Most of them. You reloading after being caught is a (You) problem, not the games'.

>>12001358
This is exactly what I'm talking about. In Tenchu, for example, guard patrols are extremely erratic, they even look random at times, which makes advancing and strategizing a dice roll

>>12001417
That's the thing, I don't. However a lot of games don't even offer a real way to hide again and continue sneaking after getting caught once, or, on the other hand, it's too easy and enemies just act like nothing happened.

>>11999892
>What do you mean by trial and error? Like if you get caught you might as well reload and try again?
tbf that's rarely enforced. You never HAD to do this in Splinter Cell, people just WANTED that perfect run.

>>12000191
To be fair, few people here actually believe they have a popular opinion

>>12001358
yeah, yeah I've heard it before. the survival component of stealth games is rarely compelling and ends with you effectively skipping meaningful content. take for instance the helicopter base early on in mgs3. it's really the first major piece of substantial stealth content in the game. if you play it straight up you're likely to got spotted on a single attempt, just the nature of a difficult encounter. your choices come down to cheesing the goldfish memory guards and waiting for caution to wind down in some bushes(feels like shit) or you can just do the obvious and run to the end level goal while guards pathetically attempt to kill you.
OR
you can engage with the meaningful stealth puzzle content and skip the bullshit.

Not retro, but I think the way Kenshi handles save-scumming to perform stealth maneuvers with 0 consequences is actually pretty clever (though probably unintentional). NPC behavior and locations can sometimes change when you reload the game, so even if you don’t get arrested, you may have to alter your approach in order to succeed at whether you were trying to steal/lockpick/etc. Even then, sometimes getting caught can be a *good* thing, as getting arrested or even being sold into slavery can someone provide opportunities to train certain skills more easily than you would be able to otherwise (with the caveat of developing a bounty or becoming a notorious criminal).

Finding ways to reward players for engaging with suboptimal or even seemingly negative consequences is a very challenging part of good stealth gameplay. Seeing what people come up with to deal with that is pretty interesting.

>>12001358
the stealth genre is dead and no new games are being made. how you decide to play them is not going to sway the imaginary developers, the only thing that will be affected is your own enjoyment which in my case is improved by removing shallow disruptions to the main gameplay component.

>>12003057
>no new games are being made