Thread 3797731

How is it so much better than all its predecessors?

>>3797731 (OP)
Try reading https://www.4chan.org/rules
Inciting flamewars is not what this board needs.

oh hey its this thread again

>>3797833
isn't that the very essence of dungeon crawling?

>>3797739
kekola

>>3797731 (OP)
baby's first not-four niggas in a row combat system

I never finished the game but want to go back to it. The rape scene was really jarring though.

>>3797950
Is that why this game has a dedicated schizo who always compares it to Fear and Hunger despite the draw of Fear and Hunger being the edgy story, art, and gore?

>>3797731 (OP)
The fun part of the game is intiailly failing then learning how to break it. The systems can really be used to your advantage rather than against. Then you get to do a supercharged playthrough and beat all the shit that previously was so hard or defeated you. Very satisfying. It also has an all time great OST

don't bother with OP, he is just mad that he got BTFO in >>3780665 by true BoF fans defending the good/true BoF games

>>3797731 (OP)
It's a masterfully crafted unique game in a stale genre. The rest of the games in this series are the exact opposite. The most generic, milquetoast games imaginable.

>>3798067
see >>3797739

>>3797950
there's no rape scene, anon

>>3797958
To be fair, DQ is pretty grimdark compared to its predecessors, which is yet another element that alienated fans of the previous entries. If you disagree then you either did not actually play the game or you are a speed player who didn't pay attention to shit.

>>3798323
Breath of Fire wasn't exactly sunshine and rainbows. The base premise is built on mass genocide.

>>3798350
if that's your bar then every single JRPG ever made must be traumatizing for you.

>>3797731 (OP)
>we want a narrower audience
and people complain when devs do the opposite

>>3798323
>If you disagree then you either did not actually play the game or you are a speed player who didn't pay attention to shit.

or to use the only phrase uttered by these trolls when you criticize this awful game "filtered"

>>3798476
how about sticking to your established audience?

>>3798093
You're the one breaking the rules by inciting flamewars by coming to a thread about something you don't like and having a meltdown. Gain some self-awareness.

>>3798476
Genuinely every piece of media could be improved by aiming for a narrower audience. Even if something doesn't appeal to me, I can still appreciate that it isn't more of the same bland inoffensive designed by committee slop that gets constantly churned out nowadays.

>>3798496
>board is infamous for breath of fire shitflinging involving dragon quarter
>we've had numberous threads like op before all leading to shitshows of flamewars
>this op is outright trying to start shit
>you're defending it with fallacies which don't even apply, in a thread with zero discussion, especially by you, further proving the thread is nothing but flamewar bait
shitposters like you is precisely why this board is terrible, you actively seek to make it worse. no don't bother replying, you made your shitposting flamewar stance very clear.

>>3798323
This doesn't look like it came out of an edgy european's sketchbook. Skip + your schizophrenia makes me never want to touch this game regardless.

>>3798323
>dragon quarter
>grimdark

how come we haven't shamed jrpgkiddies out of the hobby already?

>>3798627
Because kemco's the sole savior of the genre and gaymers are hilariously shit at gatekeeping compared to literally any other media.

>>3798627
>NOOOO EVERYTHING HAS TO FIT -MY- PERSONAL DEFINITION OR ELSE IT DOESN'T COUNT
Thanks for the attempt, but even your best doesn't appear to be good enough.

>>3798604
>numberous
Good morning Sir

>>3798496
you started it by making a new thread after getting blown out in >>3780665

>>3798725
>>3798604
Take your meds, you unhinged schizophrenic. You need to focus your entire being on gaining self-awareness for even a fraction of a second.

>>3798755
I'm not taking advice from a troll who "defends" Dragon Quarter

>>3798870
You should take your meds. I didn't make this thread, nor do I have more than 4 posts in it, by the way. Take your meds. You're severely, sincerely mentally ill.

>>3798260
Shhh don't ruin my trolling.

I went and finally finished this game after all these years recently, and still thought it was just "okay". I get what they were going for. A lot of the elements are present in today's popular roguelike genre, but the key difference to me was how slow battles are, and how you can easily get negative progress. It's a poor implementation of the concepts it wanted to achieve, and it wasn't popular for good reason.

The randomized stores make certain runs a total waste of time because gear really matters. Restarting without party experience means you have to play through the beginning chunks again at the same slow pace of your first run, so if you forget about that or don't know then your second run is likely to be another slog. Sure you can skip cutscenes, but battles are conducted at an utterly glacial pace compared to most other JRPGs. The positioning and stuff is neat, but it draws out battles with fodder enemies that would take seconds in most games (including the other BOF games).

>>3798908
>and how you can easily get negative progress

like using the Series Staple of Dragon Mode speeding up the game over counter

>>3798604
>I've decided to not like this game so don't you DARE call it good or make a thread about it
holy spaz

as long as you understand that DQ is not a Breath of Fire game, love it as much as you like.

>>3798908
negative progress is good because otherwise you'd be able to restart the game until you get enough permanent upgrades to let you beat that one regent you were struggling with, which is what a lot of modern roguelikes fuck up design-wise.

>>3798995
it says "breath of fire" on the cover

>>3798997
>it says "breath of fire" on the cover
Slapping a name on something just to sell it is something companies do all the time. Even if that name has nothing or very little to do with said name.

The devs of DQ very openly did not want to make a Breath of Fire game.

>>3799011
Breath of Fire games are some of the most generic jrpgs out there. This is the only one with energy. I don't blame them for not wanting to make trash.

>>3799011
Prey isn’t a great illustration of your point, because although the publisher had the license and wanted to use the name, the game didn’t pretend to have anything at all to do with its namesake, it was literally just a name slapped on the box. Many such cases

>>3799065
sounds like a fantastic illustration of his point seeing as how Capcom did the same with Dragon Quarter

>>3799064
>generic
>energy
DQ is even more bland and generic. The entire game is mainly running around in brown caves and dungeons with basically 3 'humans' using a standard grid based combat system with a ho hum story. That's it. Nothing to set it apart.
There are dungeon crawlers less generic than this. No idea where the buzzword energy fits in, because all I could see was the opposite of that. Bitter tired devs that wanted to do something different from BoF, but not even original or interesting. Directly contrasting this to some SaGa games makes that abundantly clear and those aren't even the most interesting or different RPGs out there.

>>3799086
No, dragons quarter was clearly intended to be another full fledged game in the series, you just think it sucked and didn’t live up to its predecessors. They’re not analogous.

>>3799094
It was intended as a BoF sequel in name, but not in development. Like when an auteur nobody movie director takes on an established IP or source material and just grafts their prior script which has nothing to do with the source material, then re-arrange stuff so it can technically be called a sequel, while not being one.

Several of the devs had worked on the BoF series before, but wanted to do something different and not really work on a BoF, so they changed pretty much everything just as elegantly as in The Last Jedi, where it was different for the sake of being different.
The structure, exploration, combat, established series elements, tone, pretty much everything was made to be different.

They should've just gone all-in and called it Demon Quarter, replace the dragon references with demons and call it a day. Because beyond minor references this is about as much of a BoF game as Shadow Hearts is. Fuck, you could even argue Shadow Hearts is closer to a BoF game than Dragon Quarter.

>>3799111
>checked
Yes, and Prey wasn’t even
LARPing as a sequel to the first Prey. It was literally just the publisher slapping the name on an unrelated game. There was a different “Prey 2” that was never released, and the publisher owned the license to the name, which it reused.

I understand the point you are making, but I am making a distinction between “a follow up sequel to an established series that goes in a radically different direction and has little in common with its predecessors, leaving longtime fans dissatisfied” and “literally not a sequel at all, just a different game with the same name”.

>>3799117
You missed the point.
>>3798997 used the name as an argument for why it's a proper sequel. This was disproved by several people.
Then there's more to a sequel than some references or whatever. Take a look at Dragon Age Origins and Dragon Age Veilguard. They're so far removed from each other you can only call it a sequel in name only. Just like Dragon Quarter.

The entire point of a sequel, especially a numbered one, is that it should appeal to fans of prior games. Otherwise you're better off making a spin-off.
Dragon Quarter was not even remotely intended for BoF fans, but to satisfy the devs ego and boredom. To intentionally not do something like BoF.
Dragon Quarter is radically different from prior games, which is one of the reasons why it's so polarizing.
Chrono Cross is another game in a similar position, that would've been better off dropping any connection to Chrono Trigger, since it didn't help that game at all, while only misleading CT fans.

>>3799125
I understand the point you are making, but you do not appear to understand the point I am making.
Dragon Quarter [or Star Wars, or the other examples raised] are sequels-in-name-only.
>Prey (2017) is not a sequel at all.
I’m not sure I can put it any more succinctly than that. Hope this helps.

>>3798997
>it says "breath of fire" on the cover

and called "Breath of Fire 5" in Japan

>>3799125
>Take a look at Dragon Age Origins and Dragon Age Veilguard. They're so far removed from each other you can only call it a sequel in name only
Veilguard reveals that all of Loghain's actions across the entire series were at the behest of a 3rd party. You got disproven by your own "argument"

>>3799134
to provide evidence of
>Veilguard reveals that all of Loghain's actions across the entire series were at the behest of a 3rd party

>>3799134
>>3799153
It's always fascinating the levels of retardation DQ goes to defend literally every single speck of the game because of how massively insecure they are,

Maybe if someone with a brain replies with more rational posts I might reply seriously, but you're out.

>>3798995
>FF16 is NOT a Final Fantasy game
Nice mental gymnastics lil bro.

>>3799175
How are either of those posts defending that abortion of a BoF entry?

>>3799134 is only reinforcing what >>3798997
said

>>3798908
You can easily complete the game on your 1st playthrough without ever restarting. Bitching about party exp and bad rng is unironically a skill issue.

kek holy shit breath of fire fags make falcomfags look mentally sound lmao

>>3799250
>You can easily complete the game on your 1st playthrough without ever restarting.

if you use cheats to turn off the D Counter but them remember to turn the cheats off because D Counter at 100%, aka the game over condition, is needed to beat the final boss

>>3799260
>kek holy shit breath of fire fags make falcomfags look mentally sound lmao
not really. It's just a dedicated troll defending the one game that the rest of the fanbase hates.

it would be more akin to Metroid (where the hated game is Other M) or FF (where the hated game is 15)

>>3799376
>or FF (where the hated game is 15)
And 2, 13, 13-2, 13-3 and 16.

>>3799376
You must be very bad at games.

>>3799386
filtered by 13 trilogy

>>3799376
>not really. It's just a dedicated troll defending the one game that the rest of the fanbase hates.
You have absolutely no self-awareness. Hilarious.

>>3799395
>You must be very bad at games.
only poorly deigned pieces of shit, like Dragon Quarter

>>3798908
>Restarting without party experience means you have to play through the beginning chunks again at the same slow pace of your first run
just save at the first phone after you get d counter and then never token save again. just sol restore to that point.

>>3799506
why would you lose half of your money every time you lose?

Haven't been on this board in ages. Has the "attack the critic" schizo taken his meds yet or does he still spam his catchphrase and refuse to actually engage in discussion about DQ while shitting on it mindlessly?

>>3797731 (OP)
its not, you're just a faggot who makes the same thread endlessly

>>3799991
no

>>3799572
you only lose half of your stuff if you SOL restore from game over. emergency SOL restore from the pause menu lets you keep everything fully.

>>3799991
At least he is calling out critics who don't even bother defending this abortion and strawman deflect their legitimate criticisms

>>3803037
Don't refer to yourself in third person, schizo.

>>3797731 (OP)
It isn't.

/thread

https://arch.b4k.dev/vrpg/thread/2774201/#2784542
The schizo retards never actually respond to this, by the way. 3 years later and they're still having mental breakdowns about a game they don't even understand on a surface level, lmao.

>>3799376
I replayed this the other day because of your post. fresh save and all. I got to the final boss with 78%. no resets or restores.

>>3801663
you can't SOL restore from battle though

>>3804982
you can end any battle by going dragon mode and killing the enemy in few hits so I don't see how that's relevant.

>>3797731 (OP)
It's the only game in the series that isn't some generic drek that felt a generation behind. BoF1 felt like an early NES game. BoF2 felt like a late NES game. BoF3 felt like an early SNES game, except with insane CD loading times. BoF4 felt like a late SNES game, except with insane CD loading times.

Why do dquarterlets always feel the need to get the last word in? I personally believe it's the fear of silence. If they didn't screech about the game, nobody else would even mention it at all. What are your thoughts on this behavior?

>>3807581
I'm very interested in the people who claim no one ever addresses criticism and game discussion to respond to this. >>3804190 3 years later, and not a single taker, only silence each time it's brought up. Is it hard to come up with responses when they're solely rooted in your immature emotions rather than objectivity?

I'm a big fan of this game but I had to quit during my replay last year because the battles were just too fucking slow. I think >>3798908 's criticisms have merit

>Watching a BoF1 Any% speedrun
>commentators and chat shit on DQ all the time, saying that crap doesn't deserve the BoF name

based fanbase, even they rightfully shun this abortion

>>3807599
because any criticism of any point in that image would just get met with "filtered" and nothing more because that is how the DQ "fanbase" rolls

>>3811446
grim considering DQ is an actually interesting speedrun game. they have the counter use optimized to 0.01 margin.

>>3811446
>speedtrannies hate dq

>>3798323
Way to miss the point of the whole story.

Grimdark settings shit on hope and the idea of goodness or selflessness, which is why grimdark stories are so reddit.

The story of the game is about overcoming the bleak hopelessness of this very grim world.
It's the idea of a struggle for a better tomorrow that the party represents, the enemies of the story are those who've lost hope.
The ultimate bad guy is the one who thrives in the cesspit that they live in. He's unable to understand that Ryu, the underdog come self-sacrificing uberman, will always be better and more than him, the guy struggling to be at the top of the dungheap; the transcendent struggle for meaning vs. the self-serving agent of a literal deepstate.

picrel

>>3797731 (OP)
>be one of my favorite PS2 RPGs of all time
>recognize that it's different from it's predecessors but I like what it does different
>just want to have fun talks about a unique title
>it's always mired in shitposting wars by retards
OP sucks cocks as usual

>>3798000
The game works so well if you go into it with no information.

>>3799111
>It was intended as a BoF sequel in name, but not in development.
It's kind of funny you want to pretend that Prey 2 as it was originally shown wasn't a massive mechanical and thematic departure from the first title. The difference here would be you'd love the game becoming a run-and-gun cover shooter with a bounty system instead of something more akin to Quake+Half Life with basic physics puzzles and some novel weapon designs

DQ was just a reaction to Capcom likely pulling the plug on the franchise as well as long-time developers wanting to make something challenging. You don't have to like the product but it's not a hack job like TLJ where the director straight up didn't care. Nor is it a different game with the BoF moniker slapped onto it like Prey 2017 is. Pretty much everything about the game is just taking existing ideas in the franchise and weaving them into a new tapestry (which is what Prey 2 would have done) with the idea of creating a challenging game set in a somewhat bleak narrative.

If you don't like the end product, just say that. Nobody cares. But don't try and pretend that video game franchises don't try and innovate and evolve within themselves. BoF had always been trying to be like any other successful jRPG in the market and the developers decided to go out on something unique instead of just a "paint by the numbers" title that played it safe. But either way I don't think anything would have saved BoF from effectively dying nobody should acknowledge 6 because the sales had been dropping. And since it wasn't Megaman BN and Monster hunter was years off, they went out on a good note imo

>>3812644
>DQ was just a reaction to Capcom likely pulling the plug on the franchise
No, it was literally the lead devs and director not wanting to work on BoF and wanting to do something different, which is the worst kind of people to work on a sequel. It only results in those devs being held back while also making a bad sequel. They should have been moved to work on a different project and have other people come onboard.
People love to make the baseless excuse of "it would've died regardless!", but games aren't produced and released if they don't expect to make a good monetary return. It was not supposed to fail. Making a very niche RPG that also abandons established fans is an absolutely moronic move from the devs side. But they didn't care, they just wanted to fuck around and do something similar to stuff they liked at the time, which is partially understandable but not okay for a professional.

>they went out on a good note imo
DQ was a flop that is widely regarded as the black sheep of the series and basically no one remembers but BoF fans and for most of them, not positively. It has a very small and very vocal fanbase, but that's it. Effectively very similar to people that love DmC.

>>3811450
Sounds more like you're conceding and defaulting to your usual schizo shitposting while burying your head in the sand. You people make Falcomfags look sane.

>>3812653
it did't flop in japan though. capcom going full retard west panderers is nothing to be proud of.

>>3812653
>it was literally the lead devs and director not wanting to work on BoF and wanting to do something different
[citation needed]
I'm aware of one interview and nowhere do they say they didn't want to work on BoF anymore. Instead it seems they poured a lot into innovating on the franchise instead of safely iterating on what already worked. It was a passion project not a cash grab.
>People love to make the baseless excuse of "it would've died regardless!",
It's not baseless. BoF IV sold less than III by a significant margin despite many people and critics considering IV to be the best of the franchise. There's very little you can present that would convince me otherwise that Capcom would have made a BoF 6 within the PS2s lifetime unless BoF V sold gangbucks. And if you think developers don't realize when they are on their likely last entry you are retarded.
>It was not supposed to fail
It didn't fail. It was a best selling title that managed to make enough sales to qualify for a "Playstation's Best" re-release. It also ranks the highest in the Japanese review scene of any BoF title.

What it didn't do was give capcom a reason to make more until mobileslop was on the table. Which again, I don't think would change with a more traditional BoF5.

>Making a very niche RPG that also abandons established fans is an absolutely moronic move from the devs side
Realizing that you can't keep copying other RPGs homework and instead trying to make something unique and distinct isn't a bad move. It will just polarize the audience which the devs were completely aware of. They didn't want another title that averages 7/7/7/7 review. They said they wanted something that would be 9/5/9/5 and that's what we got.

>doesn't understand what imo means
Black sheep and all that but the game is solid and an experience like few other for all the right reasons. I'm glad they tried something different and you should be as well.

>>3812660
>[citation needed]
Not my problem you're ignorant and didn't read interviews online and in magazines at the time. It's not my job to educate you either, especially when you make it very clear you're close-minded.
>It was a passion project not a cash grab.
It was a "passion project" alright, just misdirected, more self-centered and unprofessional.

>It's not baseless. BoF IV sold
Yes it is. You're flat out saying that there is NOTHING they could've done to make BoF5 sell better or well, which is so insanely retarded and I'm so sick and fucking tired of hearing DQ aplogists repeat this insanely retarded delusion for 10 fucking years on this site. It's part of the reason why everyone thinks DQ fanboys are demented idiots.
Not only this, you use this as an excuse to greenlit devs behavior for basically going "fuck it" and making a huge ego driven turd that absolutely no one but an extremely small group of rabid fanboys care about, or are even aware of.

>Realizing that you can't keep copying other RPGs homework
>make something unique and distinct
Which is a fucking retarded statement to make BECAUSE THAT'S LITERALLY WHAT THEY DID, except what they didn't """copy""" was BoF. They took what other games did at the time and just did it all worse. If you think the limited party size combined with the combat system is something revolutionary, even at the time, you're so far gone you should be locked up.
The only vaguely """unique""" things are in the grand scheme of things very minor, like the D-counter. And it's only really unique in how retarded it is and actively dumbs the game down even more.

>I'm glad they tried something different
Unlike you I put absolutely no value in something just being different like a brainless hipster, I care way more about execution and quality, which is actually what matters.

Fucking christ, there are no fanboys I hate more than DQ ones. The most mentally handicapped and delusional orangutangs on the planet.

Lmao, I'm not involved in your melty, but that's a lot of words that effectively say nothing. Glorious lack of self-awareness kino.

>>3812683
you sound like someone who defends code veronica like their life depends on it and calls resident evil 4 black sheep of the franchise.

>>3812683
>Not my problem
probably more like you have no proof and are just projecting your hangup into the developers intentions
>You're flat out saying that there is NOTHING they could've done to make BoF5 sell better or well
No. I'm saying the BoF franchise was already giving a non RPG company diminishing sales so the developers recognized that they were probably on their last entry unless they could make a gajillion dollars. And the previous entry that was "true to form" didn't sell as well as the one before that so they decided to just mix things up.

Not at all what you just implied so your reading comprehension is lacking.

> you use this as an excuse to greenlit devs behavior for basically going "fuck it
Things will change anon, for better or for worse. FF isn't the same as it started and neither is pretty much any long-running series. This doesn't mean change is inherently good or bad, it's up to the consumers to validate these things on their own terms. You could and will probably argue that DQ failed because nothing imitated it. But the reality is you probably just don't like an RPG you can't breeze through while others enjoyed the challenge of DQ. Unless you want to create a more substantive criticism than SERIES CHANGE BAD.

>They took what other games did at the time
Can you name 3 jRPGs at the time that were doing things like DQ did? The only thing I can really compare it too is a tRPG called Double Cross that came out years later.

>D-counter dumbs down the game
Disagree. There's always room for improvements but I think the real missed opportunity was the D-ratio and SOL story changes. But I chalk that up to having only 2 years in development. I'd have liked to see the story change more substantially as you get higher D-ratios such as how characters react to you

>Unlike you
I think we've established that you are just projecting onto everyone and everything. I like the game because it's good in spite of it being different.

The D-Counter is one of the best ideas in the game and it's hard for me to take anyone who hates it seriously. "Oh no, I can't spam dragon transformations anymore! Now I have actually think about when to activate it, and every usage always feels significant because they consume a finite resource!" DQ has plenty of flaws but if you don't appreciate the D counter you're just a baby.

>>3813408
>"Oh no, I can't spam dragon transformations anymore!
That's the trick and beauty of Dragon Quarter, you absolutely can just spam dragon form. However doing so means one of two things; either the player is just shit and slamming their head against every encounter or they are farming Party XP/cheesing the ant colony because they have understood the game systems and are probably abusing SOL Restore.

I think that's why this one guy is so upset with D-Counter. They can't accept that they aren't good enough to utilize all the game systems and they don't get that the developers designed the game with restarting and looping from save points in mind. To a degree I get that because I really wanted to just 1CC the game but wound up SOL restarting my first playthrough during the Regent Boss rush. I was in the ~85% and didn't realize I was only two bosses away from the end of the game.

But that's how the game is designed. You don't get all the good skills or weapons until later. Linn in particular doesn't come into her own until you get a solid vocabulary into her skillset. Most players are logically not wanting to get game overs either so knowing you get one for spamming Dragon form just solidifies the idea that using it must be done sparingly, but I bet most people also over-use it if they panic or play poorly. The reality is there's plenty of Dragon power to go around, you just need to know how long the game actually is and only really use it on bosses and you will have plenty left over for harder normal encounters. If a good player uses SOL they should have the knowledge and resources to handle even the upgraded enemy encounters. If they are bad they will just be limping through the game with restore.

tl;dr the only people that really complain about D-Counter are absolute neanderthals that just refuse to face up to challenge and learn how a game works. It's honestly not that complicated but they just don't like being reminded they are bad at vidya

>>3813843
DQ is very good, but people who hate it also have a point.

That's because videogames have a few different gameplay and narrative type combinations. Pic related
A series switching its main narrative and gameplay focus from one type to another would obviously make its players upset.

Breath of Fire as a series is a typical JRPG and is in the narrative camp
> I am a powerful dragon and underdog raising to power!
This is why Fou Lu in BoF4 is the pinnacle of the series.
There was no more peaking the art or the gameplay of BoF4 without just doing more of the same.
Jrpgs in general stay between ego-narrative and socio-narrative. They tend to be power fantasies.

BoF5 then switches to the ludo camp suddenly. It's suddenly ego-ludic and socio-ludic.
The biggest difference between narrative and ludo is that ludo punishes you for failure. You don't just get to reload and "try again", there is a semi-permanent loss for failure. The ego-narrative dumps power and narrative on you, the ego-ludo takes them away from you at every mistake.

This is the real reason fans of BoF as a series hate BoF5. They come in expecting an ego stroke and feeling like a savior, instead get a harsh unrewarded underdog and self-sacrifice story with punishing and limiting gameplay. The themes AND gameplay are essentially inverted in BoF5, which is obviously a total betrayal of existing fans, even though the game is great for people who enjoy ludo more, before every power fain in ego-ludic experiences feels deserved.

>>3814010
>>3814010
of course i fuck up at the last line.
> before every power fain in ego-ludic experiences feels deserved.
it's "because every power gain and success in ego-ludic experiences feels earned.

>>3814010
The game is also very dense and has like 50 hours of content packed into a what essentially is a 2 hour story game. People who dislike the game from the premise alone wont be invested enough to restart the game or to replay the game several times. All they see is a crappy game where you have to play the same narrative sections over and over again. They aren't interested in assessing what themes the game is trying to convey through gameplay because gameplay is just a vehicle to deliver cutscenes for them. like how the player is expected to fail when they start at low d-ratio and that you can only succeed when you have been reborn enough times to have the birthright destiny to succeed (updating your d-ratio after clear to signify this growth visually). You can't expect an average player not to hate your game after forcing him to start over few times even if the gameplay-narrative structure is well crafted on paper.

>>3814092
>a crappy game where you have to play the same narrative sections over and over again
Hmm maybe, but really if you're careful once you die once or twice you learn to be careful. I die once and then never again. Then i died once to the dragon meter, and next playthrough never used the dragon power until the ending, which became the norm for me.

It's honestly really cool you can wreck the game with no dragon power and no restarts if you git gud

> They aren't interested in assessing what themes the game is trying to convey through gameplay
The problem is only expectations. We live in a post-dark souls world. There's plenty of people looking for a good dungeon crawler with some plot and stakes thrown in like saving a cute innocent mute loli waifu. But those people aren't going to look for DQ for two reasons:

1) it's from a non-ludo series of games
2) the whole thing is essentially just grey industrial corridors with very little artistry unless you're really looking for it.

The problem with cheaper PS2 titles was simply that they didn't have the visual oomph to stand out, since early full 3D games were so expensive to make.

So you're essentially playing pic related once you get into the game, and it feels awesome, but realistically the game markets really poorly with grey corridors, tricky camera, ugly character models, mediocre sound design, "hard" gameplay etc.

It needed dramatic light and camera angles, some orchestral music, and saturated colors amid the darkness if it wanted people to give it a chance for the plot.

I love the game to bits, but it just doesn't market itself whatsoever

This and Shadow of the Colossus are the pinnacles of storytelling through gameplay.

>>3814010
>but people who hate it also have a point.
I don't think anyone has ever acted like there aren't reasons behind the lackluster reception to DQ despite it being mechanically sound and critically well received. The point is often just to refute the argument that "Change == bad" should be the end of the discussion.

>>3814104
>But those people aren't going to look for DQ for two reasons:
So I've been thinking about this whole ludo argument you brought up and I don't disagree with the categorizations. (the source article is about sound design but I can see what you mean here) the point I'd make is that at the end of the day Word of Mouth means more than advertisements

Atlus on the PS2 is interesting. When I think about how a Persona 3 thrived where Nocturne, DDS, and even Raidou necessarily didn't it's not just because Persona 3 was a lot more vibrant than those other those titles. DDS is still arguably the most visually interesting of the PS2 Atlus games despite using 50 shades of gray. And Persona as a spinoff franchise might have been more story and character focused than the Mainline MT titles but the games were still dungeon crawlers and P3 is worse in some regards but very much in that same camp. Persona 3 to it's credit is still a decently challenging title and doesn't slouch on it's mechanics as much as I'd argue later iterations did. But whenever someone talks about it they will be talking about the SEES crew and the social links that stood out to them.

Contrast that with BoF. There's more to talk about when it comes to plot or characters in IV than you'll ever be able to squeeze out of DQ. Even for vastly more niche series like Xenosaga the thing that will persist is going to be the plot. For me if the argument is what DQ needed to really sell it, it would sadly be making Nina and Lin waifus and expanding the story to make it more dramatic and involved. Do that and I think the game could have garnered more attention in spite of it's mechanics.

>>3814951
> "Change == bad" should be the end of the discussion
Change is bad. That's the whole point. You can't pick a series selling waifus and the power fantasy of being a teen superhero and turn it on its head, selling punishing mechanics and loss, calling it part of that series. Not only it won't work, it cannot work. It's the same issue Square Enix had with FF. Taking out turn battles immediately alienated their audiences. They need to sell growth and progress to their shareholders, but they can't change formula. And making more games in the same category would make them compete with themselves. Anything they do to grow causes them to lose money and audiences. Even worse, reshaping their staff to innovate has killed what worked well before for them already. Capcom and DQ are just another failure in a dysfunctional business culture surrounding gaming.

So the exact issue is that Capcom didn't know how to push the envelope, so they turned a whole series on its head so bad they killed it, despite making a good game.

> For me if the argument is what DQ needed to really sell it, it would sadly be making Nina and Lin waifus and expanding the story to make it more dramatic and involved.
You're right about the waifu part, pic related.

The overarching issue is "marketing". You have to market something to sell games to large audience. Previous entries market your next entries somewhat, but if you make dramatic changes, you're marketing AGAINST your next installments.
So as you say DQ needed something really, really marketable to sell. Waifus, amazing 3D modeling and landscapes (very expensive) like say, Baten Kaitos etc.
Personally, the coolest thing about DQ is the Dragon Transformation. Instead of turning into an angry goblin, they should have allowed Ryu to turn into full size Odjn and just blast bosses into smithreens with grand attacks, then cranked up the colors too. Or just called it BREATH OF FIRE DUNGEON and marketed it as a dungeon crawler.

>>3814117
>This and Shadow of the Colossus are the pinnacles of storytelling through gameplay.
Comparing this game to SotC just proves how far gone DQ fanboys are.

>>3815731
>Change is bad. That's the whole point
Change is natural and inevitable. Even BoF was changing with the improvements to pixel art across the series, and the innovations to the Dragon system as a whole. There's also the consideration that companies will make drastic changes to try and re-vitalize a game or at the very least shake up the established formula like P3 did and so die DQ

>It's the same issue Square Enix had with FF
Current FF nonwithstanding because it's not really relevant, the ATB system is itself a huge shakeup to the series and it's not the last time SE tried to make huge differences. I can still remember the backlash against XII's combat system to this day even though I do like it. The central problem here is actually your assertion that companies need to appeal to the largest market possible. That's why FF went full on real-time combat because turn based isn't as profitable anymore. If you want BoF to stay relevant you inevitably want to alienate people who like turn based combat in favor of all the casual elements that appeal to mass audiences

>so bad they killed it
I will maintain that no version of BoF5 that didn't make Capcom a shitload of money would have saved the franchise.

>you're marketing AGAINST your next installments.
This is where word of mouth comes into play. But DQ inherently pushes back against not just BoF fans but gamers in general because it asks for more than just the time it takes to watch beautiful cutscenes and deal with a non-challenging combat system. As long as the game was more difficult without that extra oomph for the casual audience, it will always have niche appeal

>they should have allowed Ryu to turn into full size Odjn
That's a change I would implement with the D-ratio since you aren't the chosen one at the start. I'd make it so that not only do people treat Ryu differently each loop as your DR rises, but so does his dragon form as he gets closer to the 1/2 that Odjin himself has and the titular 1/4