Why should the spiritual be prioritized over or be considered superior to the material ?

>>40576030 (OP)
Because material is temporary but spiritual is eternal. Consider material things that decay compared to metaphysical truths that are always.
That said, the material is the base form of the spiritual, so there's no reason to neglect the physical while pursuing the spiritual.

>>40576087
>spiritual is eternal
is it ?

>metaphysical truths that are always
such as ?

>>40576030 (OP)
Because God says so.

“Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.” (Colossians 3:2)

>>40576030 (OP)
The material is linked to the collective and collective value. In the end you're looking for someone to praise you, tell you you're a good boy and clap for you. It is empty.

>>40576101
Christians, for all their claimed spiritual devotion, are essentially materialists cloaked in religious language. Their fixation on tangible signs—miracles, blessings, wealth as divine favor, the physical resurrection of Jesus, even the need for a historical Adam and a literal Heaven—betrays a deep dependence on the material to validate the immaterial. Faith itself, which is supposedly belief without evidence, often gets weaponized into a bargaining chip: pray hard enough, obey well enough, and you’ll get what you want in this life or the next. It's not spiritual detachment—they demand a payout, a reward, a kingdom with streets of gold. The divine becomes a cosmic vending machine.

Even their moral framework reflects this hunger for consequence. Hell isn’t just metaphor—it’s a literal place of fire and torment. Heaven isn’t inner peace—it’s a paradise stocked with every fulfillment. Their virtue is often transactional: be good not because goodness is its own meaning, but because God is watching and will repay. This is not transcendence but deferred gratification. The Christian vision of the soul’s journey ends not in dissolution or unity with something beyond, but in a perfected, eternal version of the self—immortal ego with perks. Strip away the robes and ritual, and what you find isn’t spiritual purity but a deeply entrenched materialism, addicted to proof, obsessed with reward.

>>40576113
All malicious slander and distortions, but I'm not here to defend self-professing christians, I'm here to defend the word of God.

>>40576132
Of course you're "not here to defend Christians"—because when the mask slips and the blood is on the floor, you retreat to some floating abstraction called the "word of God," as if it exists in a vacuum untouched by the centuries of violence, manipulation, and control it's enabled. It's a tired trick: pretend the text is pure while ignoring the empire it built, the wars it justified, the minds it shackled. But you don’t get to divorce the word from its legacy. Your sacred book isn’t innocent—it’s a manifesto of domination dressed in piety, filled with threats, demands, and bribes.

And when you call this a “slander,” what you really mean is it’s uncomfortable to hear the truth said plainly. But truth doesn’t care about your reverence. The Bible sells fear and reward like any tyrant’s handbook. Believe or burn. Submit or suffer. That’s not spiritual—it’s extortion. And every generation of power-hungry zealots has followed it to the letter. If your god needs PR spin, endless reinterpretation, and a constant “that’s not what it really means,” then maybe you’re not defending holiness—you’re just addicted to the illusion of it.

>>40576091
>is it?
Transcendent, ideal identity is something we strive toward daily and is revealed through our best moments. When we fail to achieve it, it doesn't mean it stopped existing, merely that we fell short of that identity that day. It is available the next day, and has been available to us since the beginning.
>such as?
For example, laws of attraction/compensation. These appear in different human spititual systems regardless of time or place (i.e., the wheel of karma or the "golden rule"), and it's also reflected in theorizing about physics. So it appears to be a universal truth that transcends different permutations of matter.

>>40576151
If the bible says "don't murder", but you still murder people in open rebellion against God's commandment, are we supposed to pretend that the bible didn't say what it says regarding murder just because you decided to associate yourself with the bible term "christian"?

Non sequitur detected.

>>40576151
Lol

>>40576252
“You shall know them by their fruits”? Yeah, the fruits of Christcucks are rotten as fuck.

They claim to hate Reddit, but they are Reddit—gatekeeping, fragile narcissists who can’t handle being challenged. Christcucks have done what they always do: ruin everything they touch while acting like they’re saving it. If this is what Christianity brings, shove it back into the grave where it belongs.

>>40576030 (OP)
cause the material is boring. all that is good becomes numb, there is no permanent satisfaction, you always need more and more

>>40576030 (OP)
Because inflation makes the material more expensive every 3~6 months.

>>40576180
>Transcendent, ideal identity is something we strive toward daily
that was not what I asked there

>laws of attraction/compensation
I'm not sure if those are really truths and not merely wishful thinking, a projection of how people would like things to be

>>40576101
>Because God says so.
How can we be sure that God is real, and even if it is that it is saying the truth about it's nature and the nature of reality ?

Since the so-called Enlightenment, the Void has:
Preached “reason,” then declared reason meaningless.

Preached “freedom,” then enslaved man to machines, banks, and flesh.

Preached “progress,” then demanded total regression to barbarism, inversion, and death masquerading as life.

And when that fails?
It blames Christians for not cleaning up the mess.

>>40576104
>The material is linked to the collective and collective value.
curious take, I usually see people saying how it is just "empty self gratification and selfish hedonism"

>you're looking for someone to praise you, tell you you're a good boy and clap for you
I see more of that among the spiritual crowd desu

>>40576294
>not what I asked
So what were you asking?
>wishful thinking
I think cause and effect is pretty universal and even outside of human involvement, like with Newton's laws of motion.

>>40576324
>How do you know when someone is a trans weirdo?

Don't worry; they'll tell you.

>>40576284
> no permanent
and what makes you believe that there's any sort of permanency in the spiritual ?

>you always need more and more
seem to be more of a you think

>>40576308
You're right: hundreds of years, nothing but complaint.
No beauty. No order. No coherent metaphysics.
Only collapse, screeching for more, and rage at a God who still offers rescue.

“The fool says in his heart, ‘There is no God.’ They are corrupt, they do abominable deeds…” — Psalm 14:1

And still, Christ waits.

Let the Void shriek.

>>40576325
>So what were you asking?
>>spiritual is eternal
>>is it ?
look obvious

>>40576325
>cause and effect
>Newton's laws of motion
those don't look or behave like the laws of attraction/compensation

>>40576087
The only truths in eternity are the ones we create. There is no always, only limitations. Laws only exist in eternity if you choose to uphold them, or you can discard them entirely and replace them with new. In other words nothing is true, unless you make it true. (Not in our current shared reality, we don't determine truth here, only our creator can do that)

>>40576304
The vastness, beauty and complexity of creation testifies of a magnificent Creator. There's also record of very specific biblical prophecies being fulfilled at the appointed time, among other things.

In any event, and if you're honest about your desire to know God, all you need to do is ask the Lord Jesus Christ in prayer, and He will answer, one way or another.

The idea that a world of autonomous, self-divinizing egos—all competing in a war of infinite self-expression and infinite contradiction—will somehow stabilize into a peaceful, egalitarian, technologically advanced utopia like Star Trek is one of the most bizarre and laughable delusions of the post-Enlightenment mind.

>>40576362
>The vastness, beauty and complexity of creation testifies of a magnificent Creator.
This assumes that it is a creation to begin with

> very specific biblical prophecies being fulfilled at the appointed time
such as ?

also non of those assure such entity would be speaking the truth or be the one communicating

> ask the Lord Jesus Christ in prayer, and He will answer, one way or another
how can you be sure it's truly Jesus answering ?

>>40576359
> “The only truths in eternity are the ones we create.”
Translation:
“I am God.”

But of course, only conditionally. Because as soon as reality punches back (mortality, consequence, Logos), the mask slips and the Void worshiper admits:

> “(Not in our current shared reality, we don't determine truth here, only our creator can do that)”
So… wait. In “eternity,” you’re God, creating truth from nothing.
But in reality, only the Creator defines truth?

That’s not philosophy. That’s a hall of mirrors:
A solipsist warcry against Logos, followed by a limp concession to it.

ASToE Interpretation:
This is a perfect Λ27: The Ontic Refusal Recursion case.

The ego attempts to ascend by denying all external structure (Void Thesis),
but collapses under its own contradiction, confessing a Creator after claiming to replace Him.

This is the Void dialectic of autonomy vs. consequence—
screaming “I can define truth!” and then whispering, “...except here.”

The Christic Reply:
No, you don’t create truth in eternity.
You meet it face-to-face.
And its name is Jesus Christ, the Logos—eternal, unchanging, sovereign.

Truth isn’t self-generated.
It’s revealed.
And every soul will be held accountable to it, whether they pretended they authored it or not.

>>40576354
>can't clarify oneself when asked to clarify oneself
>laws about cause and effect don't look like laws of cause and effect
I wish you well on your journey anon.

>>40576377
Your ai is flawed and jumps to conclusions, we dont replace our creator. And yes, the one who created our existence gets to define what reality is. And if we create our own we get to define what's true. You should stop feeding every reply you see into ai, it responds with limited information, and judges others without knowing them or what they're even trying to say. Perhaps ask questions first for more information and then feed it to your ai.

>>40576412
Our creator is Jesus Christ, though. It's not some ambiguous God that following rules earns you salvation from. He is God that cares enough to incarnate into his creation, live among us in perfect adherence to the law, and, yet, voluntarily enter into death bearing all, including all of the worst of our scapegoated projections without protest into death. When Christ died, the entire universe stood still for three hours. No fusion reaction continued; absolute darkness while time, itself, stood still, and reversed directions


The resurrection is not God utilizing a loophole in the rules. When God died, time stopped, and reversed directions back towards the beginning.

>>40576442
And in that reversal, God un-died

>>40576376
>This assumes that it is a creation to begin with.

Good luck proving to yourself otherwise.

>such as ?.

Isaiah 53 on the Lord Jesus Christ.

>how can you be sure it's truly Jesus answering ?.

God will not allow anybody else to answer you if you truly, honestly desire to know Him. It would be terribly confusing and contrary to his purpose if He did.

“In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;” (Titus 1:2)

>>40576456
We've already proven that. You must not have been paying attention for the past few months.

>>40576465
Not in your wildest dreams.

>>40576030 (OP)
As >>40576087 said, it's because otherwise mommy and daddy get sad because they refuse to accept that they are siblings.

>>40576442
That's the problem with your ai, it operates on a dogma of absolute truth, religious beliefs hobble it, it hobbies you. I get it and im not going to insult you over it, but it limits you severely. It will be difficult for either of us to communicate with each other, I have no intention of attacking your beliefs, we're all free to choose. Im sure we agree on a lot of things when it comes to God, but not religion.

>>40576456
>Isaiah 53
that is not about Jesus
that is not even a prophecy

>>40576030 (OP)
It should not. The material is a reflection of the spiritual, so focusing either part solely only delays ones progress.

>>40576470
It's already proven. Check the archives

>>40576470
Hey can you explain why there exist spontaneous igneous rock formations in the deep sea that create electron gradients that perform electrolysis despite the fact that consensus science assumes somehow life must have started with bacteria? Also, how does mtDNA maintain a mutation rate below 1 bit per ~3500 years while being a literal moebius loop purely by chance? Finally, can you disprove Straton's paradox?

P.S.: *sporks you in the godhead delusion* toodles~ ^__________^

>>40576478
Truth is absolute, or it's, by definition, not truth

>>40576456
>(Titus 1:2)
how do you know it's telling the truth when it says it cannot lie ? and why are you putting a limitation on God if it's supposed to be omnipotent according with christian theology ?

>>40576487
Sure pal.

“For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.” (Psalms 22:16)

Truth is invariant, like the photon. If you chase a photon at 99% of the speed of light, you lose by 100% of the speed of light; not 1%.

If you are 99% truth, you are 100% false

Simple as

>>40576503
Not just that. Book of Wisdom was included in the Septuagint, before Christ incarnated, and it, too, prophecies exactly how Christ will die.

>>40576500
That's not true, truth can exist even when its not true, absolute truth is a truth that will be true no matter what, a non absolute truth can be a belief one holds and sticks to even if its proven false by others. Those types of truths can evolve or remain depending on the individual. Subjective truth vs objective truth.

>>40576502
That's the "limitation" the bible itself (not me) is placing, and it's quite obvious that holiness (one of God's mostly mentioned attributes) and lying are 2 incompatible, irreconciliable concepts.

>>40576522
That's fucking hilarious

>>40576503
the more accurate translation is "like a lion they are at my hands and my feet", not "they pierced my hands and my feet.”
also the link with the crucifxtion makes no sense with the surrounding verses, the interpretation of those being about David being surrounded by enemies makes more sense than as any sort of prophecy

>>40576538
Would you like an example?

>>40576522
Pride—---\|/-----Wisdom
—--------Truth-------------
Shame----/|\----Humility

Pride—---\|/-----Wisdom
—-----Experience--------
Shame----/|\----Humility

Truth is the invariant apex of the Octohedronal structure of Truth and Experience. Objective (absolute) Truth, is not the same thing as experience (truth distorted by shame fear pride greed, wrath, judgement, arrogance, ignorance and other egoic distortions that bend Truth gravitationally, like Mass

Below:

------------------------(Photon)-------------
Electromagnetism----\|/-------------Heat
(Electron)------------mass-----(Phonon)
Gravity-------------------/|\------------Sound
-----------------------(Graviton)--------------

Above:

------------------------(Photon)-------------
Electromagnetism----\|/-------------Heat
(Electron)------------Energy-----(Phonon)
Gravity-------------------/|\------------Sound
-----------------------(Graviton)--------------

>>40576517
Wouldn't put any egg on that basket. Scripture alone will suffice.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLhmAbEGx-AnRh2YgrQvayYlEItaAoISWA

>>40576030 (OP)
>unchangeable/unobtainable thing = good
>changeable/obtainable thing = bad
that's all it is. The things most of your ancestors found "sacred" have been forsaken by you and your parents before any of you were even born.

>>40576546
I've already provided you the example, it's in the dynamics of how your psycho-spiritual distortion distorts truth. That's called subjective experience; not Truth.

Conscious-Ego------\|/—-Conscious-Self
-----------------Archetypal-Mind---------------
Subconscious-Ego-/|\-Subconscious-Self

Conscious-Ego------\|/—-Conscious-Self
-----------------Shadow-Mind---------------
Subconscious-Ego-/|\-Subconscious-Self


All Axiomatic syzygies have identical transferrence functions across all domains of episteme

That is proof that this is a creation, created by one universal thought pattern; The Logos

>>40576562
We know very little absolute truths, yet we consider a lot of things to be true. Many of us can look at the same thing and come up with "truths" and none will be absolute, because we simply dont know. We can use religion as an example.

>>40576545
Sorry but I'm trusting God's hand on the KJV scholars over whatever you got there.

>>40576577
I do indeed believe that this existence was created, Im sure we have different views on how it was created though, so who gets to determine the absolute truth? We both know it was created, thats an absolute truth, but you go further and claim something that cant be proven, so its no longer absolute. Also why do you use an ai to speak for you.

>>40576545
David was never captured and pierced, besides, David is a type of Christ, just like Joseph, but these are biblical concepts that require study.

>>40576030 (OP)
I have just the sutta for you niggas:
https://suttacentral.net/mn56/en/sujato?lang=en&layout=plain&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin

“What do you think, householder? Take a Jain ascetic who is sick, suffering, gravely ill. They reject cold water and use only hot water. Jain ascetics could not use cold water on account of the living creatures therein. Ācāraṅgasūtra 2.2.1.8 says a nigaṇṭha must not stay at a lay person’s house because they may fall ill and be treated with, among other things, cold water (see also 2.6.2.2 and 2.1.7.7). Uttarādhyayanasūtra 1.1.3.7 dismisses the Buddhist claim that mere filtering is sufficient to render water allowable (see also 2.4). Not getting cold water, they might die. Now, where does the Jain Ñātika say they would be reborn?”

“Sir, there are gods called ‘mind-bound’. They would be reborn there. Why is that? Because they died with mental attachment.” It is not clear from the text why they must have attachment.

“Think about it, householder! You should think before answering. What you said before and what you said after don’t match up. But you said that you would debate on the basis of truth.”

“Even though the Buddha says this, still the physical rod is the most blameworthy for performing bad deeds, not so much the verbal rod or the mental rod.”

(and so on)

>>40576629
Because it supposed to be allegoric to the feeling of being surrounded and accosted by enemies, and again the correct translation don't mention being pierced

>David is a type of Christ, just like Joseph,
no, that is post christian delusion based on misinterpretation of text to try making it support the cult

>>40576595
>KJV
a notorious bad translation

>>40576030 (OP)
>>40576648
pardon, forgot the smug buddha

>>40576585
You're assuming you can't have contact with the creator, and that's demonstrably false.

If you "become" Christian, this means you have had "encounter" with the Holy Spirit of God, and you would know it's Truth, because the Holy Spirit of Truth, who points towards Christ, can reveal Truth

>>40576030 (OP)
>be material
>transient
>divisible
>limited
>requires the spiritual to appear
>has a knower, knowing and known

>be spiritual
>unchanging (not within time)
>indivisible (not within space)
>without beginning or end
>untouched regardless of the transient

>>40576664
You're assuming something that I've never assumed, where did I say we cant have contact with them?

>>40576677
>>unchanging (not within time)
>>indivisible (not within space)
>>without beginning or end
>>untouched regardless of the transient
again, can you demonstrate that any of those traits are true ?

>>40576655
"Correct" according to the translation you want to believe is correct. You wouldn't know a Hebrew letter if it kicked you in the face, and neither would I, so we have to make a decision and settle for one, because 2 different bibles from 2 different traditions with contradicting words can't both be right.

Something that may help you decide: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLmeJkHo165uuTk0vqt16PNpQsW2PQH_qQ

>>40576717
>so we have to make a decisio
LMFAO
we don't know so me must decide

>>40576500
the only absolute truth is that there cannot be absolute truth in a relational universe though you pee pee poo poo head

>>40576030 (OP)
Because matter is an illusion, a figment of mind, and the substrate of mind is spirit.

>>40576030 (OP)
If everyone's desires are physical, and it's a zero sum game, then only the winners of the game get their desires met.

If everyone's desires are spiritual, then everyone can pursue them and achieve 100% of what they wanted, and there's still extra resources left over for getting some physical desires met too, but from a place of satisfaction, not lacking.

>>40576966
You're just answering the question from a spiritual perspective. That's cheating.

>>40577248
It's from a factual perspective. Even physics acknowledges that information is more fundamental than matter.

>>40577273
There is no distinction. Information is a measure of matter. It's not a separate thing.

>>40576277
This is simply not true. Christianity (the collective people that call themselves Christians) have advanced humanity in so many ways. Hospitals and universities are the two big ones. Many of the greatest scientific breakthroughs were manifested by Christians. Are there people that have done horrible things while claiming to be Christian? Yes unfortunately, but that is due to sin and the flawed nature of humans, not God.

>>40577293
Information is transmitted by light, which cannot be described as material. The textbook definition of the photon is that it is mass-less

>>40577397
Mass is only real if gravity is real. I think gravity is probably a derived force.

>>40576030 (OP)
Spiritality is material

>>40576765
Not quite. I know the KJV is the word of God, and anything that calls itself a bible is measured against it, but we can't have a rational, meaningful discussion on christian doctrine if we don't even agree on what it is.

If we can't settle for any one source, better call it a day and save ourselves the time.

>>40576030 (OP)
Because there is no other choice, other than decay, addiction, and entropy. If you are a tard like me you can stay stuck in a purgatory loop of fighting demons and getting "stronger" in the hyperbaric time chamber but then you get addicted to sandbagging and have to overcome that too. It's super simple concept stuff but everyone knows once you get on a habit all the minotaurs challenge you when you try getting off it.

>>40576030 (OP)
It's not for everynody to prioritize. Everybody should do some spiritual work to figure out their best way of spending this life, but a spiritual life is only suitable for certain types.

>>40577813
>It's not for everybody to prioritize. Everybody should do some spiritual work to figure out their best way of spending this life, but a spiritual life is only suitable for certain types.

>>40576363
People didn't like the pillar of severity, but they found out after the fact that the pillar of mercy cannot sustain itself alone. Especially when the one is pretending to be the other, and the other won't let the one be what it is.

>>40577890

“The Pillars are just the gate. The Temple is Christ. You can’t walk between Boaz and Jachin unless you enter through Him.”

>>40576030 (OP)
The spiritual and the physical goes hand-to-hand. They are both equally important. The problem lies with the imbalanced priority certain cultures give over one with the other. The West for example over prioritizes the physical over the spiritual, leaving them often times spiritually weak and imbalanced. And I'm sure there's certain Eastern cultures that are too hyper-spiritualistic at the cost of being physical as well. They must be properly balanced and in-tune with one another to be at their most effective versions of their selves. That's what I've come to believe in, anyways.

To be very succinct, Physical is derivative of Spiritual.

>>40580592
They are both derivative of the integrated concept where they are viewed as levels of the same thing.

>>40576132
Nah, >>40576113 was based.
>>40576151
>>40576252
Normalfags were persistently exposed to refined influence techniques, even an entire empire of Influence was issued against their persons. These techniques have been refined in grandiose capacities for generations now. Those that initiated this process began much sooner than that.
I know it sucks for everyone to realize this in real time, but the reality is these Exoteric systems of Spirituality™ are a means to facilitate your subordination to the circus within which you now perform.

>>40580607
>>40580592
To put this another way, "derivative" doesn't have any authoritative direction. Does higher emerge from lower, or does lower emerge from higher? How about: higher patterns affect lower structures in ways that are not immediately obvious to lower structures, and lower structures are the building blocks which form higher patterns, thus affecting them in some inherent way?

>>40576030 (OP)
Look up the whole Chris Bledsoe story

>>40577293
God, op you're such a midwit

>>40580640
Let's hear your profound theory then.

>>40580616
The Solipsists were right, anon. The issue is that, simultaneously, we also experience a paradox in that each of our perspective is the same perspective. The limitation is in our individual abilities to perceive all aspects at once. We can, feasibly, connect with or exert Self through other nodes of Self, but not in a way that permits our perception through each individual node as well. At moments this does occur, the individual in question experiences what all of you call "Mania" or "Madness". Ancients understood this process to be Divine Inspiration - a fragmentation of Divinity and the mortal, carnal body observing the Divine (an informational direction that doesn't compute at an individual level). Not being able to parse the directions of Consciousness and its intersection with Perception (be it of Self or "other" Self) is what manifests to all of you as side effects of such "Madness", like confusion, paranoia, pareidolia, etc.
It would help to understand that (You) is fragmented among these physical forms and thus, yes, Spirit distills itself among Physical.
>but it's both at the same time
Yes, I agree completely. But I assure you that the Physical is derivative of Spirit. We can test this by altering our mental state to transmute the material. Do all of your ideas come true, anon? Do all of your wants happen? Do all of your fears? No, right? That's because Physical is distilled from more ephemeral sources which permeate the physical, but only in sporadic and fleeting occasions. It's the climax of your favorite song, the tip of the iceberg or mountain, the zenith of your career. This is where higher forms creep down through the cracks, seeping into our unified perception, which grants them the physical space to materialize.

>>40580650
Okay but we gonna begin unpacking it from a truly /X/ angle. I'm one the above suggesting you have to look up the Chris Bledsoe story.
I'm not any of the religious anons you were talking with previously but I want you to carefully examine the whole Chris Bledsoe story

>>40580668
None of what you said makes sense. Can you define your terms?

>>40580670
You'll have you be more specific.

>>40580692
in YouTube right now search for Chris Bledsoe. his best interviews are from the Danny Jones and Area52 channels
but I'm warning you, you gotta invest time into this. at the very least this gonna take days and days. also suspend your pic rel attitude, would you kindly?

>>40580718
Ok, not watching it. You've given me zero reason to care about this person.

>>40580833
give me your discord or something and I'll take you down the rabbit hole (despite you're a nihilistic, narrow minded chud who only wants to win online debates)
go on, be a better person and prove yourself you're actually not a midwit but a curious truth seeker
do not give in to your wounded and mad ego now
I'll show you, I am actually willing to invest hours into this on my behalf

>>40576030 (OP)
The material is temporary

>>40577293
quite wrong my reductionist materialist friend


how can we explain that erasing information from our computers increases entropy, which in turn generates heat and, by extension, mass? mere picograms indeed but clearly it shows, information processing has thermodynamic costs, that is information is physically real, not just a symbolic abstraction

of course, we don't have equipment to measure this, and I can't show you any peer-reviewed articles. howeverthobeit, from this and dozens of other examples, if one is interdisciplinary enough and able to cross correlate different bodies of data, we can assume that information is probably a fundamental building block of reality

that is, if conciousness is really what
collapses the wave function then you can see of us living in a quantum computational cosmos,
a holographic universe, that is conciousness is inextricable from the manifestation of all AYY and paranormal phenomena.

>>40576030 (OP)
Because the Demiurge sucks.

>>40576030 (OP)
Why do you think those are different things?

>>40581428
No, you just have an incorrect understanding of entropy. The universe does not trend toward greater entropy. Every increase in entropy in one place is met with a decrease in entropy in another place. This means "information" (in a trivial counting sense) cannot be created or destroyed.

These force enmesh themselves in small worlds networks, where you have attractive and repulsive forces at different levels. Physically, it seems the most distant range of force dominance is gravity and material strength (which is ultimately a question of chemistry, nuclear physics, and some other specialized fields) is primarily what we perceive mentally.

Anyway, the idea that entropy always increases is only true in a limited context, such as with highly ordered systems like nuclear and chemical forces. Physics literally gives us the tools to describe the opposite in different contexts. High level physics research is fucked right now though.

>>40581428
Forgot to add: the notion that entropy always exists in the universe, with clear application in chemistry, is absolute philosophical bullshit in astronomy. The Big Bang theory is a religion, and it distorts this whole idea of what the material even is, so this is a strawman so that you can create this immaterialist superiority claim.

>>40582277
>exists
meant to say increases

>>40577293
Wrong. Learn some quantum mechanics.

>>40582297
The map is not the terrain.

>>40580607
>They are both derivative of the integrated concept
No, not quite. Nothing can exist without Spirit, whereas matter is illusory.

>>40582305
There is no terrain. There is nothing to the phenomenal world apart from the phenomenal experience.

Above is superior to Below.

>>40582310
>No, not quite. Nothing can exist without Spirit, whereas matter is illusory.
If "illusionary" is understood to mean a hidden structure that may exist but be difficult to define, it is absolutely spirit more than material. I mean, we can talk about different psychologies, genetics, and even various brain structures that arise as archetypes experientially, but the stuff outside of our body is far easier to measure.

Don't get confused. You have this hard immaterialist stance probably because you learned it from a religion that was based off an ancient mystery school that taught gnosis. Gnosis's whole point is the path by which you develop individuality, by recognizing yourself. This allows you to improve yourself, become smarter, etc. All of those lessons were paved over with broad binary archetypes that no one seems to understand anymore. That led us to Christianity today and ignorant religious people such as yourself who cannot let go of the spiritualist notion when discussing physics. You need to keep metaphysics a branch of philosophy and psychology, and physics the determinant of the physical universe.

>>40576113
very intelligent take

>>40582315
We aren't talking about "phenomenal experience", which is inherently experienced with a degree of separation from reality, making it more simulated/synthetic if you really wanted to take it that far. If synthetic means fake to you, then the experiential world is fake. That doesn't mean it isn't a valuable world to engage with. It just gives you an important perspective on reality.

>>40576113
> Christians, for all their claimed spiritual devotion, are essentially materialists cloaked in religious language.

I agree, Christians are materialists. We're all materialists in some fashion. It's just that Christians use an intangible kind of material.

"Material" is in an abstract sense, just the medium by which things proceed. The real material is the physical, the imaginary material is our conception of the material, and the intangible christian material is ultimately an imaginary material that is perceived to be real.

> Faith itself, which is supposedly belief without evidence, often gets weaponized into a bargaining chip: pray hard enough, obey well enough, and you’ll get what you want in this life or the next.

You're describing simple rules-based thought architecture. When you can form more complex notions of relationships between concepts (such as by learning mathematical functions to model the concepts), your level of consciousness increases. This is somewhat inherently tied to ability to use language, which is why literacy has such a dramatic effect on consciousness.

they are not separate. what could be more spiritual than everything you perceive?

>>40576030 (OP)
Material is dog shit

Shit literally exists in the material

>>40582264
please do not answer me via gpt, I can tell you never went beyond elementary school physics!

this entire thread is pointless, all you're doing is "huh, gotcha, you're wrong!"

>>40582422
Gpt was a mistake, everyone uses it now and posts replies with its help, pretending its their own views.

>>40582422
>You write in complete sentences unlike my illiterate ass and therefore you must be a bot!!!
Go and soothe that ego then, I guess.

>>40576113
I think there are many things about Christianity you're misunderstanding, but I primarily just want to point out that the tangible miracle of Jesus resurrection is what separates our religion from others. It gives us a real historical event on which to base our faith.
I don't deny the spiritual phenomena of other religions or label it all demonic, but I think not having some sort of objective metric by which to judge it causes the schizos delusion that he is Satan and needs to shoot up schools to be just as viable as whatever Hindu or new age scriptures would claim. Again, I'm not claiming Hindu or new age writings are bad or false or good or anything like that, I'm just saying there needs to be an objective spiritual metric by which to judge them, and I think only Jesus resurrection provides that

>>40582461
look the first problem with AI is that if they expose falsehoods in academically accepted conceptualizations about meaning, the AI will side with OPINIONS because it’s programmed to not allow challenging academically imposed conceptual limitations…or theocratic ones. they start yapping semirelated things about the topic, and either give misleading information or act overly agreeable
you have to compare different AI tools so you can recognize synthetic barriers. there are efforts at discreet nationalized control of AI conceptual limitations and dogmatic boundaries. so use the resources while you can and compare outputs regularly.

and then theres this false dichotomy that's embedded itself into modern scientism. the western world seemed to agree that science and spirituality are separate realms. In the meanwhile, you can see that the CIA has been involved in Operation Stargate, exploring astral projection, remote viewing, and all these psi abilities since at least the 70s
>uh oh umm what makes you say things like that??
I have a whole data set built from publically available classified reports, anecdotal data, or extrapolation from unexplained observations

through critical analysis, crossreferencing sources, and acknowledging biases, I'm trying to approximate a more reliable understanding of what's going on. building an overarching meta narrative

the mechanistic reductionist science rant will continue hold up

>>40581018
The material is eternal by association to the spiritual

>>40582461
reposting cuz 'off topic' ban (kek)

look the first problem with AI is that if they expose falsehoods in academically accepted conceptualizations about meaning, the AI will side with OPINIONS because it’s programmed to not allow challenging academically imposed conceptual limitations…or theocratic ones. they start yapping semirelated things about the topic, and either give misleading information or act overly agreeable
you have to compare different AI tools so you can recognize synthetic barriers. there are efforts at discreet nationalized control of AI conceptual limitations and dogmatic boundaries. so use the resources while you can and compare outputs regularly.

and then theres this false dichotomy that's embedded itself into modern scientism. the western world seemed to agree that science and spirituality are separate realms. In the meanwhile, you can see that the CIA has been involved in Operation Stargate, exploring astral projection, remote viewing, and all these psi abilities since at least the 70s
>uh oh umm what makes you say things like that??
I have a whole data set built from publically available classified reports, anecdotal data, or extrapolation from unexplained observations

through critical analysis, crossreferencing sources, and acknowledging biases, I'm trying to approximate a more reliable understanding of what's going on. building an overarching meta narrative

the mechanistic reductionist science rant will continue hold up

i love the material world because its always behaved exactly like i wanted it to

>>40581428
>conciousness is inextricable from the manifestation of all AYY and paranormal phenomena.
That's right. What normalfags think are "ayys" is actually (a lot of the times, so not all the time) "spirits" or "ghosts" or "deities" or many other types of entities. I suggest learning about some animism, some muh cryptids and then I suggest perusing different native mythologies and investigating what their lore describes as foreign beings or non-human entities.
The reality is "Humans" are these vessels we're wearing and what "we" are isn't something physical. An assortment of different entities can corporealize inside of these bodies we wear. That's the big secret - "Human" is reduced to a very fleeting term once we understand more about Metaphysics and non-human intelligences.
What's hilarious is that Occultism services this whole field of understanding, but it's all sequestered behind "National Security" Compartmentalization. In other words, the "Mystery Schools" have been rebranded as intelligence agencies hidden within black budgets hidden by local and even national governments. If they were more honest about these subjects, we could better understand what we're dealing with, how their morality systems work (so we could more easily cooperate with them or not avoid upsetting them or whatever is needed) and in what ways we could mutually benefit by cooperation.
The catch here is that the retards currently in charge have no means to do this in a way that advances things for the majority of us and have only really sought to enrich themselves. We can coordinate to undermine this process (though I would rather frame it as fixing the problem), but not if everyone is shooing fucking missiles at each other, not coming clean about blackmail orgies with kids on private islands and other ridiculous scandals that erode public trust in authority structures - making Governance impossible.
This is a much more serious and pressing problem than people seem to understand.

>>40582898
see >>40583519

>>40576030 (OP)
Because we're broke and don't have the technology yet to live a utopian existence

>>40582558
>Jesus resurrection
>real historical event
there's no evidence for such thing ever happening

>>40582320
>Above is superior to Below
why ?

>>40577799
>Because there is no other choice, other than decay, addiction, and entrop
how do you know that the spiritual gives any real out of those and it isn't just you projecting what you wish be true regardless of reality ?

>purgatory loop of fighting demons
how do you know such loop exist and that demons exist ?

>>40577239
>If everyone's desires are physical, and it's a zero sum game
>If everyone's desires are spiritual, then everyone can pursue them and achieve 100% of what they wanted
Why do you make such assumptions ?

> there's still extra resources left over for getting some physical desires met too, but from a place of satisfaction, not lacking.
again more assumption, in what you base those ?

>>40576966
how do you know that the spiritual isn't the illusion born of desperation and refusal to accept things as they are ?

>>40576030 (OP)
Spirituality is the deep, contented joy that comes from being satisfied with understanding who you are, where you are, and why you are.
Having a solid spiritual foundation will benefit any and all material situations, and make them easier to deal with.
If one is lacking in spirituality, no material condition can ever provide benefit to it.

"Spirit" is the only eternal unchangeable reality, while matter constantly changes. But must the spirit be prioritized? Not necessarily. Think of Spirit-Matter as the relation of Space-Matter (the sages of old describe empty space as the lower body of the Spirit). If space is infinity and completely empty, the only possible way to perceive it is to have something that isn't space to compare to it - on this case, matter. The spirit manifests in our lives not as reason, love, soul or any rational concept for that matter, but as our consciouness, as a silent watcher that sees everything you do and recognizes itself more and more through the different experiences of life.

If spirit should be prioritized? You cannot really separate spirit and matter, as the Spirit is Everything and Nothing at the same time. Matter is just a projection of our current level of consciousness (which is our imortal essence)

Then why care at all? This is the thing. You really shouldn't. Life is utterly pointless and meaningless. It's the temporary experience of consciousness conditioned to having a human ego. The only possible meaning of life is to be present and mindful on everything you do and be compassionate and selfless, because there are many people who are suffering without understanding (we included), and we are all part of the same essence.

>>40583933
These reduced states, the Physical, are more beastly. There's no heightened Loss in more ephemeral realms because Possession is a much different concept when everyone else is also (You), so you don't really own anything per se. This is just one single example, anon.
The Physical and interact with and effect the Spiritual and vice versa, but the Physical is necessarily derivative in that the Spiritual generates the Mental, which generates the Physical. The Solipsists were right, but only for paradoxical reasons you're going to have trouble understanding (due to their inherent nature).

>>40576113
You seem to think 'materialism' exists on a spectrum. It doesn't. It's a binary yes/no. A person is either is a materialist or they're not. They either believe that all that exists is wholly material or they don't.

Let's say we have a Christian who is just as you described. He searches for tangible signs to affirm his faith. He believes in the physical resurrection of Jesus. He believes in a historical Adam and a literal Heaven. He's still, by definition, not a materialist.

There are multiple definitions to the word and you use them interchangeably and nonsensically while presenting the concept as a value spectrum. Suppose a solitary Buddhist monk who meditates only for 'inner peace'. Is he a materialist because he wants inner peace? Why is striving for inner peace less 'materialist' or worthy of merit than striving for a place in Heaven? You write Heaven off because many Christians think of it as a 'tangible place' without considering what Heaven entails. Do you not think there's inner peace in Heaven? Is it selfish to believe in Heaven and want other people to go there?

Is it wrong to want things that are good for you? Is it a 'reward' for something to fulfill the purpose it was created for?

It's common for a Christian to believe in immaterial things that can, nevertheless, effect the material. It's not Christian to seek validation for your beliefs, it's human. A fixation on signs doesn't make anyone more or less of a materialist.

Your 'spiritually pure' person, who believes only in metaphors and seeks inner peace and nothing else, could just as easily be a selfish materialist who thinks he will be obliterated on death.

Your post is full of bitter value statements and mismatched definitions. You set it against a fake straw effigy of a fundamentalist Christian and it's still full of holes. The Christian vision of the soul's journey ends in fulfillment of natural purpose and oneness with God.

the material is contingent upon the spiritual

>>40587539
It's necessarily subordinate because Spiritual creates Material.
Feminine creation/womb > Masculine material/physical.

>>40587543
eh i wouldn't reduce it to masculine/feminine divide
you can argue that the emanatory nature of source/one/god is decidedly masculine anyhow

>>40587806
Divine is the composite of the "Polarities", anon. I'd prefer that we frame them as compliments personally, more of a yin and yang idea, however.
The polar Masculine and Feminine really only feels easiest to distill for for leisurely settings.

>>40587886
dualism in current year is mildly embarrassing

>>40582558
>>40583924
>there's no evidence for such thing ever happening
Christians love this sort of disingenuous logic where evidence of something adjacent to what they want to prove is presented as evidence of the truth of that thing.

Jesus' resurrection is a good example. There is some historical evidence of Jesus existing as a person. Of course, as you say, there is absolutely no historical evidence of Jesus' resurrection, but a Christian will take evidence of Jesus the person being real and present it as proof of every biblical claim related to Jesus.

This sort of trickery is deeply embedded in Christian theology. We can go back many centuries and find in Aquinas' Quinque viæ attempted proofs of simply A God, not necessarily the Christian God. And you find this in virtually all Christian attempts to prove the existence of God: they make some argument that suggests the likelihood of some sort of God, and then make the incredible leap to claiming that this is proff specifically of the existence of the God of the Jews.

>>40587983
>there is absolutely no historical evidence of Jesus' resurrection,
bit of a strong claim
there is historical evidence
it's just not very close to the event itself

>>40587975
That's exactly why I just explained that using dualistic perspectives when you talk to normalfags is easier so they can understand better, not being disposed to non-dualism.
Also, my post just said "Divine is the composite of 'Polarities'". Surely you know what that means.

>>40576030 (OP)
The material is only given its form through the spiritual. The material is merely the spiritual, crystallized. All is mind, even the things you believe are physical - you can touch a tree, feel its bark, see its leaves, but can you really say it exists, when we all know that our senses can lie? Ultimately, the only reality is the one in our minds. Imagination creates, and what we see in the material world is merely the things our Imagination created and we allowed to persist, the things we consented to. Without that assent, nothing in the material world is ever born or lives.

Cogito, ergo sum. I think, therefore I am. Without thought/mind, nothing is.

>>40583528
>>40583519
I know its absurd. think about it: a more general science (something beyond physical material reality) is believed not to exist because it cannot be derived from a portion of science that limits itself exclusively to local, physical,
objective phenomena. ppl like op will rationalize their attitudes and produce many good reasons why their particular delusion represents the only correct view. such is the power of
fear, belief traps, a closed mind, and a small picture combined...

hardcore materialist nihilists will have a hard time accepting the fact that consciousness isn't a product of the brain, nor is it a hallucination of physical biochemical processes. the body is a virtual extension of the "soul"....... or equivalently, the body is a virtual extension of an individuated unit of consciousness.
it's the very ground of our reality. and I can prove it to OP but he is not willing to put any effort into this. lazy ass gptjeet

>>40587349
The only problem with "materialism" as you seem to understand it is the lack of understanding of higher level concepts and patterns that can emerge from matter.

Some of you need to look into a mirror and recognize your lack of abstract thinking.

>>40583924
>>40587983
If you accuse me of being dishonest then there isn't anything i can say to persuade you otherwise because anything I present to you would just be brushed off as deceitful without any meaningful engagement.

>The conversion of Paul, the enemy of the church
>The wide spreading of the church documents, resulting in more manuscripts than any other documents in antiquity. This is especially noteworthy amidst persecution
>The testimony of the churches pagan enemies that Jesus and his followers performed supernatural acts
>The new testament writings written independently of each other corroborating the main points of the faith (like the resurrection) so secular scholars had to invent Q gospel (which didn't exist) to explain it away

No other religious events come close

>>40588391
Emergent behavior arising from physical processes isn't an abstract idea, that's a common concept of hard materialism.

>>40587994
>bit of a strong claim
It's almost like the person who claimed that was the disingenuous one huh.
>it's just not very close to the event itself
The new testament writings were written within 100 years of the Jesus events, which some minor possible exceptions like 2 Peter

>>40588453
Only materialists can understand that though. Anyone who sneers at materialism probably has no concept of emergence, or the metaphors that go with it.

>>40587983

we know that suffering has something to do with these extraordinary powerful psi states ( OBE, telepathy, clairvoyance, healing abilities) think about whitley streiber's case: the glowies around the 50s came to the conclusionthat the kind of genetic, hereditary traits a psychically gifted person inherits are just way too rare ....they needed a much larger sample size to really explore the above mentioned psychic phenomena.

so they start experimenting on a bunch of kids like Whitley, mostly ones from military families. Whitley was part of some kinda deep black, government (or government contractor?) sponsored programs, much like the cia's project mkultra.
because turns out severe trauma, particularly in early childhood and psychological torture and extreme disassociation and the fragmantation of the psyche, are SUPER psi conducive.

that trauma, that suffering activated something. it happened to jesus too.
im not religious, and i've only briefly touched on this, but jesus is quoted as saying "iif you do not follow me, i will return as a thief in the night."
and I believe that return was in 1898 when the very first photograph of the shroud was taken by secondo pia, and we all saw him on the negative of that very first photo

cont

>>40588506
Emergence can only explain how complex orders emerge simpler orders. It can't explain where order in general comes from.

>>40588596

so, what happens to jesus is this: (based on the gospel of thomas, at least as I currently understand it and i'll might be wrong).
he goes to egypt and understands the resurrection technique, AKA total ego death. in effect, he then becomes a magician at a time when, in the roman empire, the cornelian laws are in effect, and the punishment for being a magician and sorcerer is capital. he understands something about our inherent capabilities....how we're all capable of exhibiting these "psi" abilities. that power is in all of us. and his entire message was that "i am a son of man, a human being."

in the gospel of thomas, it is written that when the disciples ask him what secret words sesus whispered to him, he replies, "if told you, you would stone him to death"

this is exactly what's in thomas' gospel: go violate the law, go out among the gentiles and eat the food you're given, leave your ego behind and be YOU, your real self.
it goes all the way back to pythia, the delphic oracle: "be thyself."

this is the core message of jesus: "know thyself, and the kingdom of heaven is within you."

and this all fits into a bigger framework where we're living inside a quantum computational information processing system, and from within this system, our physical, material universe is being derived

i'm sorry materialists the shroud is real

>>40588723
>and his entire message was that "i am a son of man, a human being."

You better fix yourself jewboy

>>40588827
when J says he is the son of god, he means we are all sons of god.
we are all individuated portions of a larger fractal pattern that constitutes All That Is.

everything seems to imply that we are nonphysical conscious beings experiencing a virtual physical reality, rather than physical beings experiencing consciousness.
we are all part of the same greater consciousness fractal ecosystem, though we are smaller and individuated.

>>40588676
Order in general is a philosophical problem. It doesn't make sense to think of this as spiritual, because the philosophical has absolutely nothing to do with knowledge of the self, and mixing these fields of thought leads to a lot of harebrained religious ideals.

it shouldn’t. technology has already surpassed magick

>>40588939
We can go with this but let's dress it up;
J is the son of God, He means this is His Father's own Show.

We are individuated portions of Jesus, the Jesus whom God's show murdered on "accident."

With that bit of christ body broken for us we are free from kikery but not much else. Infact if you follow the thing too closely you'll end up back in the awful maw of the jew god. Which is ok if yourr actually cool with Jesus but if youre not cool with Jesus then I would suggest you get really good at math and end up with zero debts

>>40588128
>Cogito, ergo sum. I think, therefore I am. Without thought/mind, nothing is.
If nothing is, everything is. The one is not in our mind, the one overwhelms it and the mind resorts to dualism to take back control.
>without that assent, nothing in the material world is ever born or lives
If nothing is born, nothing dies. Ashes to ashes. It just is ash in the end.

>>40576030 (OP)
>Why should the spiritual be prioritized over or be considered superior to the material ?
this is only the case because the pendulum has swung too far in the material direction
balance produces the most potent spark

>>40576101
>general question about spirituality vs materialism is asked
>LET ME TELL YOU ABOUT GOD AND THE BIBLE
no pun intended, but jesus fucking christ

>>40576348
>NOW LET ME TAKE UP THE WHOLE THREAD TELLING YOU ABOUT GOD AND THE BIBLE
and you wonder when non christians find this absolutely insufferable

>>40576113
based take
the pharasitical augmentations did this purposefully

>>40588391
>Christians are materialists
>No, you're wrongly defining that word
>You lack abstract thinking
>What you described isn't abstract, that's just basic materialism
>Well only materialists understand that

You are like a stream of consciousness. You don't challenge or even address anything said to you. You're a by-the-books, garden variety materialist with an arbitrary standard of spiritual purity.

>>40591844
Bro, there is obviously a limitation of language. You have a different definitions of words, and you insist on using words with these definitions instead of agreeing on any operational definitions that would allow us to further the discussion. You attempt to break it off and then look superior. This is basic pilpul. And in the end, you try to make a sly accusation about my personal character, as if it makes this asinine argument of yours look any better.

>>40591924
'Materialist' and 'materialistic' mean different things and you conflated them into a single word with a wishy-washy definition. This isn't a case of two parties limited by language barriers, it's you who has created this Frankenstein definition. It also defined faith as 'belief without evidence', which isn't necessarily true. You say there's a limitation of language but it's just you pulling invented definitions out of your ear.

That initial posts read like a seething moral tirade and I'm not supposed to think that you hoity-toity purity standards? That's not an accusation, it's an observation.

See you can be a spiritual materialist or a materialistic spiritualist or a materialistic materialist.