Hey guys, I have been studying Judaism and Kabbalah for years and am really interested in converting. Rabbi Tovia Singer played a big role back in the day in waking me up to the faults of Christianity, which also obviates Islam, etc. I am equally studied in Eastern spirituality, and occultism.

I want the potent monotheism represented in the Bible; the genuine spirit of it in modern practice; not a conservative or liberalized husk. I understand that the form should change over time, but know something is truly special and unique in the seed of this tree.

What is the most enlightened denomination of Judaism?
Are there any enlightened Jews here who can advise on the true, baseline, liturgical spirit and goal of enlightened Judaism?
Is Zionism really 12D chess, or is it just a disease contracted in response to suffering Western chauvinisms?
Is a future, fully-templed, magico-prophetic, proto-shariah-styled, yet technologically advanced, Israel, even plausible? Isn't building a new temple a commitment to eventually stone male gays and disrespectful children?

What are the best books you can recommend to me along these lines?

"Zionism" is just American politics. America supporting fascist nationalist ideology all over the globe. Just like we're supporting nazis in Ukraine. Or islamofascists all throughout the middle east in wars against ba'athists [AKA secular socialists]. Or Pinochet and 100 other south American dictators we've installed after couping a democratically elected socialist.

Zionism isnt any different than any of that. People on /pol/ just use jews as ethnic scapegoats to blame for America's problems so that nobody blames the rich, or the rightwing. Or capitalism.

Pic related being a relevant example of how US intelligence agencies reason support for Israel to be keeping communists distracted from communism in the middle east.

>>40702769 (OP)

Not Jewish, im a wizard but I took the Jewish kabbalah pill too and at one point was thinking about converting like you. I would say with your interests the Hasids and schools descendant from the Baal Shem Tov are the purest expression of living a life of mystical Judaism, they live and breathe Kabbalah. However converting to them as a gentile is basically impossible. Reform is going to be the easiest but they are progressive and political and their understanding of Kabbalah is about on the same level as your general New Ager or the Kabbalah Centre.

I would like to point you towards Abraham Abulafia in reading and study. He teaches a kabbalah to generate prophecy that is heavily dependent on the alphabet and closer to biblical Jewish mysticism (hekhalot and merkevah). If you havent already pick up Rabbi Aryeh Kaplans commentary on the Sepher Yetzirah before you begin studying Abulafia and trying to perform his techniques. You're going to find your experience with eastern practices is going to translate extremely well with the Sepher Yetzirah and Abulafia.

As for zionism and political Jewish shit stay the fuck away from it. Don't let that bullshit get in the way of your relationship with HaShem thats where the jews are fucked up and abuse their religion.

>>40702769 (OP)
I'm not Jewish but I've read and considered conversion as well. Contact your local Jewish community center or shul and visit their library, ask for books aimed at potential converts, ask for books explaining different denominations. Talk with rabbis from different denominations. Talk to Jews from different denominations. Be aware that Judaism isn't actively proselytising, so nobody is going to convince you to convert, it will be on you so to speak. Also, it's of course a serious endeavour that will change many if not all facets of your life. Be sure to consider the less pleasant sides too: antisemitism is real.

Best of luck anon, baruch haShem.

>>40702769 (OP)

tip one, dont call it the bible, if you're talking about the talmud, theres the miqra or the gemara that are pretty heavily left out of the christian "bibles," so, if your expectation is set up based on that, youre going to be disappointed when we just teach you to meditate and analyze your relationships with yourself and the world around you

thats why theres so much variance, because it is an incredibly personal tradition. if you set yourself up with evangelical christian expectations, you'll be seen for an opportunist, theres plenty of christians who "convert to judaism" only to proselytize.

also, israel has no legal basis in judaism and is a client state of rome founded by the habsburgs to push for "prophesy to be fulfilled" to push everybody into the apocalypse, but thats where imma shut up cus christian nationalist retards fucked around, and theyre about to find out

>>40703259
>>40703260
The thing about conversion is "why do you want to officially convert?" People from a background in a Christian society don't understand that question in Judaism because they assume the religion is the same as Christianity.

When you convert to Judaism, you're not really converting your belief system but your ethnicity. And when you convert your ethnicity, in Judaism, it means in most interpretations that youre suddenly beholden to MANY more laws and rules which you otherwise wouldn't be. Why do you wanna do that?

So Jewish people are going to be like "why? Why do you want to do that? You can practice Judaism without officially converting." 4chan tries to manipulate that fact into making it seem racist or elitist but it is not about any of that. Anyway a reform temple will convert you with very little persuasion and you will be officially eligible for right of return in Israel and everything so its almost moot at this point anyhow.

To a lot of jews, when you go to convert, youre just setting yourself up for a lifetime of having to boil your eating utensils everytime you eat at a friends house. With no other benefit. So people are telling you "don't convert" for your own benefit not for theirs.

>>40702769 (OP)

You're wasting your time. The Jews don't want gentile converts because that means there will be fewer slaves for them in the next life. Why do you think there's never any news about Jewish missionaries?

>>40703363

dogshit projection glowie, seethe harder about your attempt to enslave the world not working n work the shaft while youre at it

>>40703309
>>40703333
That's basically my experience when telling jewish peoples I want to convert. "Why?"

>>40703309

When I was thinking about converting i had taught myself hebrew and had been reading and writing in it for 7 years. I had been studying the sages and wanted further guidance and education. The Christ thing never made sense to me as I have always prayed to HaShem and meditated on him directly and never understood the extra layers and steps the Church makes you go through to access "salvation" or the father. Judaism made a lot more sense as it was personal and how I understood my relationship with HaShem. On top of that one of the missing components of the modern man that is severely underplayed is community. And religious community is easy to find and get involved in. To act like community isn't a necessary aspect of living spiritually is an indicator that you arent doing it.

Now I didn't convert because like I said, Im a wizard I do magic. And I found my community elsewhere, but there are plenty of reasons a gentile would seek to convert to Judaism and just because ethnic Jews take their religion for granted doesn't mean converts do. It is a well know amongst Christians that the converts are more educated, more passionate, and more serious about the Church than those born into it.

>>40703333
>>40703309
BTW to answer OPs question directly reform judaism is absolutely the way to go. Progressive liberal church which recognizes the Torah represents just the start of humanity's understanding of the divine and not the ultimate end. To be fair, every branch of Judaism other than Orthodoxes recognizes that to some degree because its one of the primary points of the entire Talmud. But reform jews are mainly the ones acting on said belief.

>>40703363
Yeah that's retarded anon. You don't seem to know anything about Judaism. >>>/pol/ the fuck out of this thread please.

Judaism doesn't proselytise because they're not interested into making everyone jewish. From a Christian or Muslim perspective it may be hard to grasp, but Judaism is as an ethnoreligion that allows but doesn't actively encourage conversion.

>>40703388
Yeah if youre not a reform jew then youre almost looking out for another person's interests when you say "why?" Because in the Torah ethnic jews need to follow many more rules than ethnic nonjews.

>>40703429
Exactly. Although of course all those obligations come with a pretty substantial benefit: the jewish community around you. As another anon mentioned above that's a big part of jewish life, and Judaism isn't really something you can practice in isolation only. But sure one is signing up for around 600 obligations that we gentiles simply dont have to bother with.

There are also noahides, but they always rubbed me the wrong way, like go full convert or nothing. No offense to anyone.

>>40703394
To a Jew, Christianity is a frustrating religion because the name of God is supposed to mysterious. And in some sense unknowable. And thats the whole idea of (non-orthodox) Judaism is that this religion is full of mystery and debate and disagreement and hidden knowledge we're all trying to uncover with out mystical intuition.

In Christianity, you have a system of belief where people believe Jesus Christ was the messiah. So he came and told them everything the way it was. No more mystery. No more debating. No more mystical intuitive. Just follow these random rules this random person set forth 100s of years ago and if you disobey you will randomly, inexplicably, burn in hell for an entire eternity [a notion that doesnt really exist for the majority of jews.]

With what you're discussing in terms of conversion, I strongly support reform Judaism. Reform Judaism is popular. Reform Judaism temples are everywhere and when you convert you are officially recognized by Israel and eligible for right of return. Its clearly a more enlightened and spiritual evolution of the religion...which evolution is what judaism as a religion is designed to do. Obviously people in jewish churches need to recognize the present social and political situation in our world is different than it was 1000s of years ago and begin to be more welcoming of people into jewish temples

>>40703394
To a Jew, Christianity is a frustrating religion because the name of God is supposed to mysterious. And in some sense unknowable. And thats the whole idea of (non-orthodox) Judaism is that this religion is full of mystery and debate and disagreement and hidden knowledge we're all trying to uncover with our mystical intuition.

In Christianity, you have a system of belief where people believe Jesus Christ was the messiah. So he came and told them everything the way it was. No more mystery. No more debating. No more mystical intuition. Just follow these random rules this random person set forth 100s of years ago and if you disobey you will randomly, inexplicably, burn in hell for an entire eternity [a notion that doesnt really exist for the majority of jews.]

With what you're discussing in terms of conversion, I strongly support reform Judaism. Reform Judaism is popular. Reform Judaism temples are everywhere and when you convert you are officially recognized by Israel and eligible for right of return. Its clearly a more enlightened and spiritual evolution of the religion...which evolution is what judaism as a religion is designed to do. Obviously people in jewish churches need to recognize the present social and political situation in our world is different than it was 1000s of years ago and begin to be more welcoming of people into jewish temples

>>40703477
Noahides are mainly fine because theyre creating their own denomination of judaism thats outside of an ethnic barrier. Its good in some sense. The issue people have with Noahides is that they falsely perceive it as an act of submission or something. Or that Noahide branches of Judaism are accepting themselves as being in some kind of ethnically inferior situation.

And that is NOT the situation in Judaism and that is NOT how Jewish cannonical literature views such an act.

But yeah I mean as I've said a number of times now I really support the reform branch and really think other branches need to open up understand we're living in a world quite different than thousands of years ago and ultimately become more welcoming.

>>40703503
>>40703394
>because the name of God is supposed to mysterious.
nature* not name. FFS I butchered that comment in so many ways. I already deleted it once and reposted it. So oh well.

>>40702769 (OP)
OP here:
Thank y'all for responding!

>>40702937
That's how it feels to me intuitively, but a part of me understands the Zionist Argument in this sense: I think there are aspects of Judaism that *may* intrinsically draw angry resistance from the world. As I come from a Christian culture, I can see his sense that a Godly, genuinely Monotheistic orientation is ontologically repellant to the outside world, as it partly consists in disrespecting beloved idols. Similarly, perhaps the spirit of Judaism foreknew that it required a certain set-apart land to truly exist. Likewise, in the Thirteen Petalled Rose, the author describes, realistically, the Jewish God as being "separate"--ultimately immanent and connected, but also *an infinite distance from all things.* So, there is a unique importance to separation. Furthermore, literal genocides are commanded in the Bible over this, so, though that is highly evil to my conscience, then and today, I can see why someone who is already Jewish might find it easier to theoretically say: "Well, it can't be evil to seize Israel by force today, or else Hashem is evil, which is blasphemy." And if I were strongly persuaded that the Law of Moses is objectively perfect, that position would not feel so far away either.

>>40703259
Thank you! I am more where you are, now, actually. /G\ But I'm still searching. Kaplan's Sepher Yetzirah has blown my mind when I read it a few years ago. I will revisit, and also look more into Abulafia.

>>40703297
Fair points! I agree Christian Fundies are about to find out, unfortunately.


I am very pleased to find earnest people on 4chan.

>>40703309
>>40703333
>>40703388
As for "Why?" the reason would be if I were convinced that the Mizvot are actually positive spiritual practices commanded by God; not simply as a means to join the Nation. This is more of an Orthodox-styled concern, I think, as another aspect of coming from a Christian background may be the sense that there is a right way to practice Judaism religiously, and that the covenant is not entirely left in the hands of the People to define.

In the actual TaNaKh it seems that belonging to the Nation of Israel is contingent upon the Commandments more than it is contingent upon ethnicity, since the penality of breaking certain laws seems to threaten being "cut off" from the Nation.

So, while I partake in non-denominational Jewish activities sometimes, and mostly know and go to reform or conservative Jewish synagogues, I think part of my soul still craves genuine piety, which I have learned to associate with the Orthodox, but I know from the Christian-sphere that simply being Traditional does not always equal sincerity and piety writ-large, often due to the accretion of parochial customs and superstitions.

OP Here:

>>40703394
Of course it is the Magus who gets where I'm coming from the most. Am I destined to just practice Magic? But I also feel, as you may intuit, that by the very mentalist principles of Magic, it is actually much cleaner and more direct to utilize and engine of simple faith and virtue and pray and act, than to have to self-consciously rely on self-hypnosis. Isn't that so? I think a state of truly believing what must be true of Monotheism itself brings a special kind of harmony, which the framework of Magic complicates unnecessarily.

>>40703406
I'll look into Reform Judaism more. I've feared the sense that it's just watered down Judaism, that is basically just Secular Western-ism with a weird remnant of ethnic particularity and individualism. You know? One of the rich beauties of the Torah and Abrahamic tradition to me is that sense in which the authors were comfortable giving their own power and glory to God. Joseph could interpret dreams, but has the humility not to root it in his own strength or genes, but as a contingent Gift of God.

>>40703595
The Tanakh heavily centers around the plight of an ethno-religious group in history who were facing persecution for bringing monotheism to the world, in essence.

I mean, thats my reading of it. Sure, some people say Zoroastrianism technically predates Judaism by a tiny bit, OK, but monotheism was a very revolutionary idea when Jews were running around in the desert and being chronicled in these works.

In that period of time the people who were writing those books obviously would have identified fairly strongly with their ethnicity. After all, didnt everyone back then? And where ever jews went in those days they were being singled out for their ethnicity.

So it makes sense, in some sense, that all of that is in the Tanakh but for anyone without a strict orthodox view on this religion [Orthodox jews are a very small minority of jews overall] we're supposed to be a religion of evolving doctrine. Jewish cannon easily stretches into the 13th century and doesn't stop with the Torah or the Tankakh.

Its always evolving.

Again it just comes back to everything Im saying above with my heavy support of the Reform temples. Reformers are doing whats in the soul of Judaism, reforming.

>>40703680
Check out this comment >>40703691 I think this is the one that sums up much of why reforms are necessary in Judaism and in fact reforming is inherently baked into the jewish cake

>>40703691
>>40703714

>who were facing persecution for bringing monotheism to the world

But this frames my question perfectly: Did the Jewish people bring monotheism to the world, or did God bring monotheism to the world? Is God an idea that the Jewish people discovered, or is God an actual being who exerted agency through some of these people? I think the thrust of the Torah is of the latter sort; with God having agency through the People, and with the people themselves being a fallible, passive instrument at best, whose virtues were reliant upon their submission to God, rather than on their intrinsic ethnic peculiarity.

I don't think that Jews were being singled out for their ethnicity so much as for behaving differently, resulant from their religious proximity to God, and subsequent resistance to idols and reductive/deranged, merely earthly powers and laws.

Do you see how there's a difference, here?

I don't think God chose Abraham to be the main vessel for his covenant because of his ethnicity, but because he was himself a preeminently humble and faithful man.

I think the sense that the idea that ethnicity, in an immutable sense, is what makes the Jewish Nation special is problematic, and not necessarily found in the TaNaKh. Of course, I as a potential convert might have this sense, but I also think this is true of the TaNaKh and perhaps more easy to see from the outside, whereas the importance of Ethnicity may plausibly have developed within the Jewish Diaspora as a result of myriad efforts to force assimilation, in the sense of abandnonment of the Law, rather than in the sense of merging with foreign genes.

Do you see what I mean? Wouldn't that tend more toward materialsitic racism and nationalism, than toward spiritual piety, high-mindedness, and virtue, which I think of as the true purpose of Judaism?

>>40703850
Well the "Chicken or the Egg" debate is one you can ponder and its a valid thing to think about. And I'd see it somewhere in the middle personally. Jews being the 1st humans to really embrace God and then to bring him to our species.

Anyhow thats the story of the Torah. But in Judaism generally you should not take the Torah as "the literal word of God", as Christians do in their religion. To Christians, Christ came as their messiah and confirmed all of the old laws so now theyre sent in stone. So Christians cant divorce themselves from anything written in the Torah. One thing thats hard for Christians to understand about Judaism? We don't have that issue. If somethings wrong in the Torah we're like "bro thats bad."

>>40703680

Magic is definitely a lot messier but ive kept my framework with HaShem and take study and inspiration from Christians, Jews, and Moslems while still incorporating pagan philosophy and polytheistic godforms. There is obviously so much contradiction between being a magus and abrahamist working out of their literature, however a good wizard finds their power in paradox, contradiction, and is inherently at odds with the institutions by nature of his direct relationship with the divine. This will very obviously bring you to the brink of madness given the amount of confusion practicing syncretically will induce if you have an absolute belief in the systems you find inspiration from, however it can be done with Faith. Faith alone is what protects the wizard from the confusion. Philosophy and Theology will not reconcile the contradictions only experience and Faith that HaShem is guiding you will keep you on the right path.

My incorporation of Judaism is through gematria, study of the Torah and Tanakh, and meditation/utilization of their alphabet which is incredibly powerful. However the Christians have amazing material on discerning spirits and the exercising of authority, while the moslems harbor an intense form of magic that most never approach. The pagans and philosophers are who we go to for guidance on apotheosis and providing a little rationality to what we experience as wizards.

I would say the path of magic is much more dangerous than institutional religion but those magus who take the institutional religions seriously and seek wisdom from their sages fare a lot better than those blinded by pride to the power of those faiths.

>>40704079
>My incorporation of Judaism is through gematria, study of the Torah and Tanakh, and meditation/utilization of their alphabet which is incredibly powerful. However the Christians have amazing material on discerning spirits and the exercising of authority, while the moslems harbor an intense form of magic that most never approach
Interesting thoughts here. Re: Moslem esotericism, a lot of that is in Sufism.

Even the Kabbalah and Hasidism overlaps significantly with Sufism historically, with influences through Spain especially. There were the Spanish/Andalusian Muslims and Sufis, who interacted with these early Hasids and Kabbalists (or Jews in Spain), and there is scholarship from both Muslims and Jews backing this up. Including a Sufic influence on the Kabbalah. Also a history in Turkey.

Some of the Sufis and Islamic esotericists and mystics were in a very privileged position, historically, culturally, geographically speaking. Because the Islam of the Koran explicitly views itself as a fulfillment and culmination of all the former authentic religious traditions, including the inspired Hebrew and Christian religions, which at least at their start truly came from God, or in other words they indeed had an authentic “Warner” or Prophet. Again, in the worldview of Islam.

Speaking of geography, their power and historical dominion through the Middle East and extending into parts of Central Asia (India and adjacent countries like Pakistan and Bangladesh) was also a unique factor. To the West they had European civilization, and from trade and contact with them, as well as their preservations and translations of Ancient Greek and other literature, they had some degree of interaction with Judaism, Christianity, and then the rich Ancient Greek philosophical and spiritual schools. In their own region and thereabouts, there was Zoroastrianism they could study and be influenced by, more particularly in Sh’iite Persia (now Iran).

Wow, really interesting thread. I'm kind of unsure about my life path but judaism and freemasonry seem appealing to this was a good read.

>>40704562
Then, keeping around Central Asia and even parts of the Middle East like Afghanistan, where they had the Bamian Buddhas (famous huge Buddha statues) and the Buddhist community there, and further east into East Asia, they had Buddhism and Hinduism which some of them had concourse with.

Some of these Sufis hence came up with an astounding type of Theosophy before its time. It developed, for some Sufis, into a sophisticated nondual mysticism and also a conception like of the perennial philosophy (philosophia perennis, or also Perennialism as a school of thought), much like some later Renaissance Christian European esotericists and philosophers.

Anyway, I could bring up some real interesting stuff about the Sufism-Kabbalah connection, and sometimes overlap in beliefs and practices, from some of the books I own at some point soon. There are even some Sufis who claim they basically had the real Kabbalah and it was THEY who, interacting with Jewish mystics in Spain and Turkey and elsewhere thereabouts, essentially gave them the Kabbalah. They made Kabbalah with a combination of genuine deep study and contemplation of their Tanakh, and (allegedly) the Sufic esoteric knowledge and practices handed down to them.
Arabic Islamic mysticism also has a system similar to Jewish Gematria, where Arabic words and letters are assigned number values (through the Abjad numeral system) and these are used to encode or decode various meanings.

>>40703850
we inherited freewill when we ate from the tree of knowledge. after we gained free will (god created the tree) it says god was wroth with man. alpha and omega the beginning and the end soo he knew what that would transpire before it even happened hense "wroth".

its all in genesis if you would actually read before engaging in faggotry.

>>40704650

I use both the abjad and gematria in my magic and while the utilization of both has exposed me to things most will never see or have never seen I have found that the 22 letters of gematria provide more numerological ratios than the 28 of the abjad. The power of the abjad is more within its pronunciation when assembling the numbers for esoteric application but the "matrix" so to speak works in 22.

You wasted your time on learning a fake book made by pedophiles. None of that shit is real.

>>40704953
Real interesting anon, thanks for sharing,
I’m conked for tonight but tomorrow I might give some interested passages, book citations/recommendations, and, hell, maybe even some of my own thoughts if they’re interesting enough. Godspeed.

>>40702769 (OP)
You gotta be asking all this to HaShem, turn to HaShem. It's not going to do anything good to try and get some kinda "secret" from other people to it let alone anonymously from ppl who are far from qualified.

>>40702937
>An intelligent well reasoned post on sociopolitical matters
>On /x/

Didn't see that coming

>>40705881

This whole thread is surprising theres no christian shills or antisemitic conspiracy theorists schizo raging just on topic discussion. This thread is like a little treasure.

>>40702769 (OP)
Rabbi Tovia Singer doesn't seem like a very credible scholar of Christianity to be its opponent. It's clear he's more of a political figure. A brief google of this guy and scholars have already torn his screeds to shreds.

Why Kabbalah, why Judaism? Why not Christ?

>>40706607
to the contrary, his critiques of christianity are stronger than most all christian apologetics. it's his conclusions that (his version of) judaism is correct that are iffy.

>>40702769 (OP)
You can't convert. Jews will never consider you one of them. You will be called "Giyur", which is just slightly better than "goyim", and they will see you as a useful slave. You will never be anything more to them. Do not go down this road. They will lie to you and try to convince you that this isn't the case, but read their holy book more carefully. It isn't lying if it's to a gentile, because we are lower than animals in their eyes.

God abandoned them for a reason.

>>40706242
>antisemitism
Oy vey!

>>40706708
his criticisms of Christianity come from intentional misreadings and mistranslations of the Bible, they aren't in good faith. They're profoundly weak arguments, things that have been solved in Church writings for centuries. He's not against Christianity theologically, but politically.

>>40707389
OP Here:

No, Tovia's arguments are very strong, religious, and in good faith. There is no good exoteric Christian explanation for where the Law went. Some laws are very specific and peculiar, like making being a disrespectful child, or working on Shabbat, a capital punishment. Every so many years all debts are forgiven and slaves freed. One must repay stolen goods double, and things like that.

None of these laws, which God said are good, conducive to success, POSSIBLE TO ACCOMPLISH, and for all time, is easily subsumed, or accounted for, or effectively replaced and maintained in the intuitive antonomianish spirit of Christianity. Though Jesus said he "fulfilled" the Law and obviated it for everyone else somehow, All Christians in practice have always vaguely maintained certain laws they like, and filled in the rest of the space with merely Natural-Law/Reasoned Civic Laws, just like every other Nation before/without Jesus.

This is a serious critique, as Judaism is essentially rooted in the Eternal Law of God in the Torah, and Christianity claims, with weak proof, to supercede said Eternal Law. Indeed, God even said in the Torah that there will be false, but effective prophets and miracle workers who would endeavor to pervert Jews away from the Law as a TEST. Miracles are NOT proof enough, according to the Law itself, for a total transformation of the Jewish Covenant.

God is not a Man, and cannot die.

>>40709645
nta but >>40706708
you rather than me listening to so much of Tovia, but yes his deboonks are solid up to the point where he blurts out "christians are wrong SO I AM RIGHT ABOUT JUDAISM".
his PoV on Judaism is many times closer to... well, to Judaism than anything christian, it's actual Rabbinic Judaism, but I don't see him coming close to actually proving Rabbinic Judaism to be an authentic continuation of the Masorah of the Prophets and the Judges.
he doesn't even endeavour that, but somehow believes that disproving some particular Jewish heresy - on a rational level, he does it very strongly and thoroughly - is the test of real Judaism, which he doesn't prove.

>>40709692
That's a valid distinction I agree with. But being able to deboonk Christianity does a lot of legwork in terms of limiting the variety of things one might consider blindly giving faith to. At some point it does become a matter of what you're willing to believe, perhaps on the basis of personal need and psychology, I think.

But: NOT Christianity, or Islam, or Mormonism, ,etc., renders Billions of people and much of history largely misguided, and the range of credible faiths, if one must choose, way smaller.

>>40703259
>they live and breathe Kabbalah
and rape all their boys

>>40706607

Christ sounded like a good idea until i was exposed to Christians. It was then I made a pact to off myself if I ever became as arrogant, prideful, and insufferable as them.

>>40709645
this is an intentional misreading of Christianity by someone motivated to oppose it for tribalistic reasons instead of pursuit of the truth. note how he never engages with Christian theology and theologians, doctrinal documents or the like.

>>40711979
pretty funny argument, wonder what this guy who wants to convert to Judaism will think of the Jews with enough exposure?

and you sound like an American, go meet Christians in different countries and of different denominations. almost none of the Christians I have known fit the description you generalise with

>>40702769 (OP)
I converted conservative, and am part of a reform congregation. It's been three years since I converted, and they put me on the board at the synagogue a few months ago.. Having a degree and being young and fairly well adjusted is a huge deal for most synagogues... I'm very well accepted. And Judaism just gets deeper and deeper mystically as you stay in it and keep making it a part of your life. Baruch HaShem and good luck on your journey. I went to my first passover when I was 25 and started the conversion process 5 years after that.

>>40712327

thats the issue right there. you think its an argument. everything is an argument to the Christians. I don't know what it is about your faith that makes you so absolutely incapable of accepting people for who they are or where they're at but if that's what it means to be Christian I don't want any part of it.

>>40712327
How does Tovia never engage with Christian theology? Have you heard his, or any Jews, takes on the obviously incoherent and non-Jewish concept of the Trinity? That's why, for me, it's either Judaism, or a Gnosticism that avoids worshipping a dead man as if he were literally God Itself. Doctrinal Documents? Think about The Old Testament. Now, compare it to "Doctrinal Documents." If they affirm the Trinity, or anything else of that sort, they don't matter.

I am already very familiar with and involved in Judaism, and many of my friends, and in laws, are Jewish.

Christianity has good things about it, but those things are already present in Judaism, and less diluted.

>>40706242
I'm not Jewish but people usually think I am and having grown up on Long Island I can pass well enough since I grew up around it. This thread has been interesting to me.

>>40712392
I've a question, did you go into it already married with kids or were you somehow coping well with being 30+ and no real sight on starting a family somehow?

>>40713692
Went into it married... We unfortunately cannot conceive naturally so we're adopting, probably starting the process next year. But yeah went into it with the relationship question already resolved, and my wife is into it.. she bought Shabbat candle holders for us many years ago and started our weekly Shabbat candle lighting tradition at home.. in addition to many other things. She's currently getting ready to start conversion herself and we both want to raise our eventual kids within Judaism... At least pushing through the bar or bat mitzvah and then letting them make up their own minds...

>>40706242
Because y'all suck each other's dicks and gaslight people into thinking judaism has some sort of good value at its roots

Judaism is just pieces of ancient knowledge you used to subjugate.

For the people who comes here: don't believe a word these inbreeds are saying. Now that everyone hates jews you start to do the most fucking pathetic damage control and congregate your tribe into these places as poison on the well, as always.

I hope you die and boil in shit and semen in hell.

Oh and if you try to cast spells on me I assure you it will backfire and you'll go insane to the point you wanna kill yourself, jewbitch.

>>40707238
I think that maybe they were chosen to be reformed, but got abandoned like you say after they proved to be rotten to the core.

>>40702769 (OP)
Why do niggers like you even want to learn kabbalah, what do you think you will achieve retard

>>40713857
To become a living God and rule.over the goyim scum with an iron fist.

>>40713867
kikes are gods now? Lol why would a god make himself look so fucking ugly

>>40707238
>>40713823
OP Here

There is no possible "abandonment" of the Jews by God. The Jewish Bible itself says in many places that their covenant with God is Eternal, Everlasting. Israel breaks the laws continually throughout the TaNaKh, and even goes into exile in the Biblical texts, just as in these last two millenia, and yet, God never abandons them.

Ezekiel 37:26-27
"And I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be an everlasting covenant. I will establish them and multiply them, and I will set My sanctuary among them forever. / My dwelling place will be with them; I will be their God, and they will be My people."

This is another massive problem Christians have, because they must assume that the same God they partially worship suddenly gained the ability to break his eternal vows and covenants. There's no proving anything new to an omniscient God.

>>40713801
>I hope you die and boil in shit and semen in hell.
>Oh and if you try to cast spells on me I assure you it will backfire and you'll go insane to the point you wanna kill yourself, jewbitch.

Least vulgar, cruel, and paranoid anti-judaist.

>>40713857
It provides a fascinating vision of metaphysical interconnectedness and a theological structure that simply makes more sense than any other. If you're a Christian--Firstly, wash your mouth out: Colossians 3:8: "But now you must also rid yourselves of all such things as these: anger, rage, malice, slander, and filthy language from your lips."
Secondly, check it out yourself; find simplified Kabbalistic principles; even as they were adapted by Renaissance European Christians, and see how they enliven and enrich things you take for granted in the New Testament. Kabbalah is also a key for the numerological and symbolic aspects of prophetic books like Revelation.


How do you antijudaists also account for the continued, peculiar prominence and persistence of the Jews after all this time?