Thread 234953

I'm a lightweight, (1.78m, 60kg), i've been going to judo for some months now, I'm liking it a lot, but, is it comparable/better to wrestling? Especially for a guy my size, I always thought wrestling would be useless as from what I know, it uses a lot of raw strength, while judo (though it still uses strength) is better suited for taking down heavier/stronger people. Is this right? Should I try doing some wrestling? I find judo very good but also sometimes limited by the sport

>>234953 (OP)
>is it comparable/better to wrestling?
Comparable. They have different rule sets and specialize in different techniques but are both good grappling systems. There are shared techniques between judo and wrestling.
>Especially for a guy my size, I always thought wrestling would be useless
I started wrestling at 6 years old. By the time I was 8 I was ragdolling my larger 12 year old cousin who used to pick on me.
>it uses a lot of raw strength
More accurately, it requires more raw athleticism at baseline. It's tougher for battered old men to have a convincing wrestling match than a judo match but as young competitors judoka and wrestlers are both extremely athletic.
>judo (though it still uses strength) is better suited for taking down heavier/stronger people
There's a well-known story about Dr. Kano (small of stature, founder of judo) adapting kata guruma from American wrestling's fireman's carry in order to throw a larger and very skilled guy at the dojo who he couldn't figure out how to beat otherwise (GIF related). While the two disciplines approach it differently both are about efficient application of force as you can't really rely on always having a pure strength advantage, particularly in a weight class sport.
>I find judo very good but also sometimes limited by the sport
A common complaint among judoka is that sport/Olympic judo has corrupted judo as a broader discipline. If you approach it with the mindset that sport judo is something you do to study judo, rather than that judo is something that you study to win at sport judo, you might have a better time (and fewer injuries) in the long term. That said, there are limits to any combat art because it's not sustainable to have life or career ending injuries every bout. Dr. Kano wanted judo practice to be safer than old jujutsu.
>Should I try doing some wrestling?
Absolutely! Both disciplines are a lot of fun and teach you useful things about grappling. What style of wrestling are you looking at?

>>235018
Thanks for the explanation, I probably will try wrestling in some time (basically when I can handle doing both while I'm trying it out). I've always been a bit reluctant to trying it out cause I always saw this giant guys in videos and competitions so I assumed it wasn't for me. Aside from that, it's good to know what I'm doing is actually useful, I've grown a bit wary with trad martial arts as they tend to be too "performative" at times in my experience.
I haven't investigated much about wrestling to know wich style I should try, tho as far as I know it's not very popular in my country, so I may not have the possibility to choose and end up going with what I can find.

>>235141
>I always saw this giant guys in videos and competitions so I assumed it wasn't for me
You are heavier than the lightest Olympic wrestling weight class.
>I've grown a bit wary with trad martial arts as they tend to be too "performative" at times in my experience.
Judo was systemized in 1882 as a modernization of traditional jujutsu. Testing techniques through competition (shiai) has been a steady part of the program since the start. Brazilian jiu jitsu, a popular subdiscipline in mixed martial arts, is a variant of judo. Martial arts that pressure test themselves through full-contact competition tend to be less "performative" than ones who don't.
>I haven't investigated much about wrestling to know wich style I should try, tho as far as I know it's not very popular in my country, so I may not have the possibility to choose and end up going with what I can find.
They're all fun. Whatever's available locally is worth checking out.

WEBM-related is another technique that exists in both judo and wrestling. In wrestling you would call it a headlock takedown whereas in judo the throw is koshi-guruma (hip wheel) and the pin is kesa-gatame (scarf hold).

>>235167
If she did that to you, you would end up sniffing her armpit ever thought about that haha?

>>235167
>You are heavier than the lightest Olympic wrestling weight class.
Yeah, I guess that I'm not as light as it can be, I'm just usually self concious cause for my height I'm verry skinny.
>[...]Martial arts that pressure test themselves through full-contact competition tend to be less "performative" than ones who don't.
Makes a lot of sense, in the end, what teaches how to fight best is fighting. I got a bit worried cause the more "restrictive" rules in judo compared to wrestling, but now that I remember, I heard it used to be more open.
>They're all fun. Whatever's available locally is worth checking out.
I'll look up around my city, but, from a quick search there's really few places I can find. I'll do a deeper search later, I live in a big city so there must be somewhere.

Thanks for your explanation Anon, helped me understand more about this styles. From what I've searched before I couldn't find much content comparing the two as to understand the differences, so it's very helpful.

>>235178
I hadn't, actually. I bet her gi smells like fresh laundry.

>>235179
>I'm just usually self concious cause for my height I'm verry skinny.
Eat more protein and lift weights. >>>/fit/76077351
>more "restrictive" rules in judo compared to wrestling
You can't do chokes or submissions in wrestling so the limits go both ways. The grip fighting is also very different in gi versus no-gi grappling and scholastic/folkstyle wrestling doesn't allow a lot of judo or Greco-Roman style throws.
>I heard it used to be more open
You can probably bait the old guys at your dojo into ranting about this.
>I live in a big city so there must be somewhere
In the US there's not a lot of wrestling outside of the school system. I don't know what the situation is like in your country but hopefully you can find something appealing.
>From what I've searched before I couldn't find much content comparing the two as to understand the differences
Chadi on YouTube has some grappling style-versus-style videos that you might find interesting:
https://www.youtube.com/@Chadi/search?query=judo%20vs%20wrestling
You can probably solicit more opinions in the other threads about >>>/xs/judo and >>>/xs/wrestling . If you post Chadi videos in the judo thread with your questions you're pretty much guaranteed a response because of some questionable takes on training methodology he semi-recently expressed.

>>235181
>Eat more protein and lift weights.
I've been getting into calisthenics, afaik it doesn't get you very big but is very efficient in getting you strong. It's also very convenient that I can do all from home, wich saves me a lot of time. I try to eat at least something of protein everyday, but that's probably not enough.
>You can't do chokes or submissions in wrestling so the limits go both ways. The grip fighting is also very different in gi versus no-gi grappling and scholastic/folkstyle wrestling doesn't allow a lot of judo or Greco-Roman style throws.
I wasn't aware of that, I always thought it was much more "lawless"
>Chadi on YouTube has some grappling style-versus-style videos that you might find interesting
Thanks, I'll check that out too

>>235184
>I've been getting into calisthenics, afaik it doesn't get you very big but is very efficient in getting you strong. It's also very convenient that I can do all from home, wich saves me a lot of time.
Calisthenics are good but weight training is more efficient. Does your dojo have a weight room?
>I try to eat at least something of protein everyday, but that's probably not enough.
If you're serious about wanting to change your body composition you really should be tracking your macros. Reading the previously linked /fit/ sticky might be beneficial.
>I wasn't aware of that, I always thought it was much more "lawless"
Catch wrestling allows a wider variety of submissions than BJJ but it isn't as widely practiced today as it was at the start of the 20th century. While you can still find some legitimate catch-as-catch-can gyms, freestyle wrestling (no submissions, one of the Olympic styles), scholastic/folkstyle wrestling (no submissions, the main style in American schools), and professional wrestling (choreographed combat theatre) are derivatives of catch wrestling which are more popular today.

>>235189
>Does your dojo have a weight room?
No, but there are many gyms around. I'm thinking about doing calisthenics for now, as I'm still very unathletic, and when I start to get fitter hit the weights (if I have enough time, that is)
>Reading the previously linked /fit/ sticky might be beneficial.
I'll do that, thanks for the info
>Catch wrestling allows a wider variety of submissions than BJJ but it isn't as widely practiced[...]
Oh, that's good to know. Didn't know there were so many styles too, I lumped them all together as one in my head lol (except for pro wrestling ofc)

>>235196
>Didn't know there were so many styles too
That's just the tip of the iceberg. Pretty much everybody has had their own style of wrestling at some point in history:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folk_wrestling
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wrestling

>>235198
So cool desu, it great seeing martial arts having so many different styles depending on the needs of those who developed at their times.
>webm
lol that must hurt

>>234953 (OP)
So this is kind of a semantic point, but to me "wrestling" is like an umbrella term, and you have subtypes of it, but it's all wrestling
So for example, there's 2 types of "wrestling", there's
>jacket wrestling
and
>no-jacket wrestling
No-jacket wrestling can include the ones you probably know, like the olympic styles
>freestyle
>greco-roman
but also
>american folkstyle
but also more esoteric ones, like
>sumo
>scottish backhold
Then you have jacket wrestling, and the obvious example is
>judo
but there's also
>sport / combat sambo
>shui jiao
then more that add limitations, like being unable to remove your grip, like
>irish collar and elbow
>chidaoba
and then ones that don't use a literal "jacket" at all, but just something else that you grip to, like
>bokh
>belt wrestling
And probably loads of others
And not to mention
>arm wrestling
Which is genuinely a style of wrestling, just hyper-limited

If you enjoy judo but want to branch out, one option is to find another club near you and try something different. Nothing wrong with that. But you might try talking to some of your training partners and seeing if any of them want to drill some no-gi stuff with you after class?

>>234953 (OP)
I like both. Think of it like this:
Wrestling as the physical workout
Judo as the technical workout

Wrestling will allow you to improve strength and agility, but raw strength isn't enough to adapt to every opponent, especially in an unfair fight, that's where Judo becomes useful, careful observation of your opponent, an objective knowledge of your strengths and weaknesses and mastery in Judo will allow you to devise a strategy to win the fight before it even starts

>>234953 (OP)
>(1.78m, 60kg)
bruh how the fuck, are you a stick? I'm 1.70m, 68kg and I'm pretty lean (~15% bf)

>>234953 (OP)
>sometimes limited by the sport
that's why combat sports are a meme, but all in all, judo is one of the most applicable to real life

an unarmed lowlife wants to kill you? he will go grab you, he won't just stand there taking shots like it's a turn based game

lowlife pulls out a knife? Provided I can't just run the fuck away, I'd only try to disarm if there's a good shot I could do it, otherwise just pull out my gun or knife.

2 or more lowlifes? You're not fucking Bruce Lee, better have good sprinting speed cause that's your best chance to survive. Failing that, gun, ofc

tl;dr train your legs, your best skill is running, and depending on the situation, climbing and parkour could come in handy also

>>236828
Then the best shot is doing japanese jiu jitsu, since that's basically classical judo anyways.

>>236825
Years ago I offered this perspective to a judoka who wrestled in college and he told me it just meant I wasn't good enough at wrestling.

>>236826
I once met a young man who was 2.06m and 57kg. Once he had access to better nutrition and started training he put on weight fast enough that he ended up with stretch marks on his biceps.

>>236828
>2 or more lowlifes? You're not fucking Bruce Lee, better have good sprinting speed cause that's your best chance to survive. Failing that, gun, ofc
If you're in good fighting shape and normal sized or bigger taking on 2+ lowlifes is entirely feasible, though deescalation and escape are generally preferable. When I worked security at a club a coworker of mine with a strong wrestling background beat the shit out of two bikers who pulled brass knuckles on him and the fight was so one-sided in his favor that none of the other bouncers stepped in to help him. I've had some good results in sparring contexts but fortunately have the right combination of luck and deescalation skill to never have needed to try it irl.

>>236828
On knives, I have a few webms of knife fights fought well with grappling and throws, but I'm posting this one to show an underappreciated aspect which judo excels at, which is the grip fighting
Most of this fight is spent grabbing each other's clothing and gripping, vying for position. If the good guy had practice stripping grips and dominating he might have saved himself getting stabbed in the head a few times.

>>235178
You ever think about not being a pathetic beta virgin posting stupid shit on the internet?

>>234953 (OP)
I'd go with judo over wrestling because it has more stand up takedowns, submissions, and there isn't any concern about being on your back. Whenever you grapple with wrestlers that haven't trained outside of wrestling, you'll find that they always give you their backs...because that's the way they've always trained in wrestling.

>>236970
It took me several weeks to break that habit when I switched from wrestling to judo.

>>234953 (OP)
>which is better
This is a child's mentality. It's like when people ask who would win between X&Y. May as well ask who'd win between Batman and Superman. Such questions are reallu up to an individual's imagination.

Do what you enjoy. Both Judo and wrestling are very capable of teaching high level combat skills. Continue with your Judo. If you see something in another martial art you realize you're missing, then add that one to your repertoire. However, it's too soon to tell after just a few months of training. Unless you want to shop around a bit before you choose something.

Judo basically doesn't work
You need to be olympic level to throw an athletic resisting opponent

Wrestling works and it's more natural

Wrestling basically doesn't work.
You need to be powerlifter strong to throw an athletic resisting opponent

Judo works and it's more efficient

>>242040
>You need to be powerlifter strong to throw an athletic resisting opponent
Powershitters that aren't roided out are just fat.

>>242040
This just doesn't make sense because it's widely acknowledged that judo is very technical and difficult to learn whereas wrestling comes more naturally to people and doesn't have weird rules etc

>>235018

I wanna get into judo but I'm worried because I have hyper mobile hips and shoulders... I always wanted to learn to grapple and I want to be able to defend myself in case a serious altercation ever happens. I am afraid I'm too old now at 30

>>242528
judo is something that you need to do since a child to master, its very awkward

youre better of doing wrestling or even better learn boxing which you will be able to knock people out in 1 second

and go to the gym lift weights and weigh 200lbs

>>242536

ah, is it not really worth starting at my age at all? ok, I'm sad to hear but thank you for being honest. Sadly I live in England so there's no wrestling, really.

>>242522
>and doesn't have weird rules etc
Wrestling has tons of rules and restrictions. Just that none of the wrestling dickriders here actually wrestle so they don't know them.

>>242537
>>242528
Judo works at any age. Petr Yan comes from a boxing and TKD background and didn't learn judo until he was well into his adult MMA career. Yet he routinely tosses collegiate wrestlers around with judo.

>>242564
You mean he did a nogi osoto gari which is more wrestling

Do you see GI grips? Do they teach nogi grips in judo? No. So don't talk bs

If you go to Judo class they will teach you a lot of fancy and low percentage stuff that is meant to work in the judo game, do this fancy grip on the gi here, do this fancy step here, and they do this and that (which doesn't work if you're being punched)
Then... Oh no you're not allowed to do that body lock that way

Oh noo you're not allowed to grab his leg even though it's right there

Oh wait you gripped him wrong that's not allowed. You dragged him to the floor "wrong"!!

Wrestling you just learn grab him here and push him/pull him and he's on the floor. Being athletic helps and wrestling teams even hobbyist look like fighters whereas hobbyist judo people usually look like absolute shit

Trust me I've tried both. Judo for self defence is a meme unless you're fighting someone whose falling over from being so drunk anyway that an untrained trip would work

>B-but look at this compilation of parisyo doing 3 judo throws in MMA!!

You're not that guy pal

>>242570
>Oh noo you're not allowed to grab his leg even though it's right there
Buddy I'm about to blow your mind

>>242570
>he did a nogi osoto gari which is more wrestling
Why is it called an osoto gari then and not a non-Japanese name? Checkmate atheists.

>>242570
>Oh wait you gripped him wrong that's not allowed. You dragged him to the floor "wrong"!!

>>242574
>>242572
Greco and folkstyle is still way less restrictive than judo and relevent for MMA

And anyway you know Im talking about freestyle in which every takedown is allowed. Stop coping

>>242570
>Trust me I've tried both
Doing 2 trial lessons doesn't make you an expert in anything.

>>242577
>hates judo because of rules
>muh freestyle
I guarantee you have never done freestyle.

>>242583
Anon is a 30 year old guy who wants to use the techniques for self defence

He will break his own neck before he does a beautiful judo throw on anyone "on the streetz"

He won't do any footsweep on someone who wants to punch him in the jaw

He will however manage to bodylock someone or grab a leg. Because I could take down other beginners with only a few hours worth of training. That speaks for itself.

The basic motor skill stuff is what will save you. Not judo specific fancy gi shit. There's a reason its not respected and it's participants are overall weak looking unless you train from child and go to olympics. Judo very complicated not work properly anymore. They need to make the rules relaxed and put leg grabs back in. Then we can see

>>242584
I stopped doing freestyle because of a few things.. injury, distance from the gym, gym hygiene, and I thought it was a bit of a cowboy gym as the coach had me sparring from day 1 at 100% against other beginners and didn't ask me if I had any experience in breakfalls or anything. Even when I told him I was new.

Lastly there was a massive focus on sports specific stuff like gut wrenches, other stuff that I had no interest in. I want to learn takedowns only and preferably the ones that work in an actual fight with strikes involved

So that's why I'm going to give MMA a try soon. I'm guessing it will be more useful

>>242602
post your belt.

>>242606
I dont have a belt

>>242601
>Because I could take down other beginners with only a few hours worth of training.
Once again you are admitting that you are a beginner with very little training acting like you have an educated opinion on something. You have been coping that judo doesn't work based on your single trial lesson where you got mogged on /xs/ for months.

>>242613
So as you confirmed, you need to be a judo master for it to maybe work, and it also doesn't work against someone who's intent on punching you in the face. Thanks for confirming you need to be a judo black belt before you can MAYBE throw a drunk guy

Whereas a few sessions of wrestling you will learn the highest percentage stuff which is actually used in low level and high level fighting, with minimal restrictions

>>242601
>There's a reason its not respected
It's respected by people who actually train, i.e. not scrubs like you.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhNF4m-_kU4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1lKwrT_TZ8

>>242628
>and it also doesn't work against someone who's intent on punching you in the face
false

>Thanks for confirming you need to be a judo black belt before you can MAYBE throw a drunk guy
Cops barely get any training and throw people all the time.

>>242601
>>242628
>Because I could take down other beginners with only a few hours worth of training. That speaks for itself.
Have you considered that both you and your training partners suck ass?

>can't make something work
>am I the problem?
>no, it's the system that's wrong

>>242629
>Hip throws are judo not wrestling!!!!

That grandpa would have fallen over with a swift push or slap. You don't need to learn complicated judo shit to take him down

>>242630
In judo most people can stiff arm and play defensively negating attacks. You are literally penalised for not attacking enough to let the opponent try a counter

The point is wrestling works quickly. Judo it takes years to become capable. I don't know why you're trying to prove otherwise, this is a known fact

>>242629
>Uhh look these two guys who have been doing judo and wrestling since the dawn of time managed to use it in a fight!!


Exactly. That guy asking whether to start for self defence was a 30 year old beginner. He isn't't throwing a capable person. He isn't tripping anyone who isn't drunk. Teach him how to grab a leg or body lock someone and he can pull that off within a few weeks in an actual fight

Throws are difficult enough in randori, now imagine some thug trying to knock your face off/headbutt/kick

Boxing, wrestling, kickboxing

In that order for practical skills

>>242632
>he can pull that off within a few weeks in an actual fight
>He isn't tripping anyone who isn't drunk
Both false.

>>242633
If you're saying Judo is easier to learn than basic wrestling you're talking shit

If you're saying 1 year of wrestling Vs judo for a 30 year old beginner is in favour of judo, you're talking shit

>>242633
Further to this there are judo black belts who tell you if you want to get someone to the ground easily judo is a waste of time, just learn wrestling

If you want to score ippon under judo rules, in sport judo, then by all means. Learn judo.

>>242570
>>Uhh look these two guys who have been doing judo and wrestling since the dawn of time managed to use it in a fight!!
Moving the goalposts. You said nobody respects judo. These two dominant MMA/sambo champions highly respect judo, trained in judo, and use it in their fights.

>wrestling teams even hobbyist look like fighters
False equivalence. There are no "hobbyist" wrestling teams. Everyone who does wrestling as an adult was somebody who trained it for years in school, aka the exact same as the hyper-trained judoka you think are the only people who can make judo work.

>That guy asking whether to start for self defence was a 30 year old beginner.
Who's going to be exactly as schlubby as a beginning wrestler as the hobbyist judoka you bitch about, because he's an adult beginner.

>>242631
>you need to be an olympic black belt to maybe take down a drunk guy!
>but uhhh, not THAT drunk guy! Anybody could have taken him down!
Peak cognitive dissonance.

>>242637
>Further to this there are judo black belts who tell you if you want to get someone to the ground easily judo is a waste of time, just learn wrestling
Name these black belts.

>>242632
>Teach him how to grab a leg or body lock someone and he can pull that off within a few weeks in an actual fight

>I have grabbed a leg! This surely means I will take him dow-ACK

>>242669
You seem to be getting very upset about the fact wrestling is seen as easier to learn than judo, and are now trying to cope with the fact your shitty judo doesn't work and no one trains it beside copers

Stop nuthugging Kazakhstan MMA fighters lmao

There are hobbyist wrestling clubs, the sessions have way more conditioning and physical aspect than hobbyist judo

>>242671
Now imagine if that guy trained judo lmao. He would get destroyed trying to go for his gi grips

>>242671
Did that guy tap from the guillotine and then hit him

>>242679
>gets btfo out of every argument
>n-no you're mad!
lol

>There are hobbyist wrestling clubs, the sessions have way more conditioning and physical aspect than hobbyist judo
Which you admitted to quitting because you couldn't handle it lmao

>>242602
>judo bad because it has a bunch of sport specific stuff
>I left freestyle because there was a bunch of sport specific stuff
???

>>242687
And? The point still stands. Wrestling is easier to learn and more effective in fights

>>242688
Yes, and?

>>242528
>>242537
Don't listen to that other guy. If your goal is to simply learn a functional amount of judo and not to win Olympic gold 30 is a perfectly reasonable age to start. I started in a university class (all adults) run by a former national champion and Olympic coach that got all of the students up to a very solid yellow or orange belt by the end of the semester (people who went off-campus to the dojo for extra training and/or did well in tournaments could often promote faster). A solid number of black belts started in that program so the notion that you need to start as a child or that it's very awkward is bullshit. Perhaps Anon is an uncommonly awkward person or had an uncommonly bad teacher but his experience isn't the norm.

Additionally, depending on your local judo dojo you might be the young guy there. Judo requires a lower baseline of athleticism than wrestling so it's easier to keep up with in old age and it's not uncommon to find grandfathers who still train several days a week.

As for the hypermobility, the thing you have to be aware of is that you will not have as much of a warning for when you need to tap out as a normal person would. Tell your instructor about this and he'll be able to give you some guidance on how early to tap out and how to keep your joints safe in his gym and it should be fine. Once you get good it can even be a small advantage.

>>242601
>He will break his own neck before he does a beautiful judo throw on anyone "on the streetz"
Wrestling is famously way, way harder on the neck. I can nearly guarantee you haven't put serious time and effort into wrestling and judo.
>He won't do any footsweep on someone who wants to punch him
Loads of bouncers do this. It isn't hard.
>I could take down other beginners with only a few hours worth of training
A competent judo instructor can teach a competent student a usable throw in that time.
>put leg grabs back in
This is the only non-retarded thing you've said.

>>242602
lmao

>>242694
Yet another person who knows basic wrestling is far far easier to implement and leg attacks + body lock takedowns form the basis of MMA and are the most high percentage takedowns that work with strikes involved

Still they will use all their mental gymnastics to shill judo and get someone to waste years of their life doing low percentage stupid throws with no chance of using them in a self defence situations unless it's foot tripping a drunk (you could shove them and achieve the same effect)

Complete cope

>>242695
Anon's question was if he could learn judo to improve his self defense capabilities at 30 with no reported abnormalities beyond hypermobility. He can. If you had any substantial experience training or coaching you would know this.

Trying to dismiss judo as low percentage is ridiculous. The only takedowns I've ever used in self defense are found in both judo and wrestling. "Foot sweeps," as you call them, work well enough in wrestling that some guys will cross train in judo just to get better at them because they're effective not just on drunks but on sober grappling athletes. You're not a serious person and you've been giving terrible mentally ill doomer advice to an Anon trying to improve his position in life.

>>242696
Why would he learn something less effective for self defence when he can do 6 months boxing 6 months wrestling and be a better fighter than someone who does 5 years of judo???

Hell, 6 months kickboxing would be better

>>242695
You keep stating your opinions as universal truth woithout any proof, they're not.

>>242698
Google is wrestling easier to learn than judo and you'll get your answer

I don't know why you think your cope opinion is a universal truth either

Have you tried both like I have? Clearly not

>>242700
I've done judo for 4 years and nogi bjj for 2 and now i'm doing kick boxing, you don't learn anything effective in 6 months and you don't need to be a technical master to footsweep a person who is not aware of what you trained.
For OP the best is to look for the best gym he can afford near him, the sport is irrelevant as long as it is full contact and he trains regularly.

>>242700
This nigger is kinda right, and I'm obsessed with judo. You get taught a lot of things that are realistically low percentage at the beginning. Danaher actually has some very good examples of how to effectively use Judo even more than wrestling, but judo is so fucking rigid and boomeresque nowadays that -ironcally- its now very stagnated... the very thing kano preached at the core of judo, that is to be pedagogical has now eroded

>>242701
So you would have been a better grappler and overall athlete if you would have done wrestling for 6 months instead of that shit

Don't blindly defend something unless you experienced the real side too

>>242702
Nah bro judo is very good for beginner they will be oppon seioyanagaying everyone in a year no problem bro judo best totally not useless in a real fight with aggressive young adult male. You're gonna grip fight whilst getting kicked and punched so fun haha why do wrestling which teaches you body lock, headlock and all trips and arm, shoulder, hip throw as judo.. that works gi or no gi.. no you gotta learn sportified judo

>>242702
>Danaher actually has some very good examples of how to effectively use Judo even more than wrestling
Danaher's feet 2 floor is trash. He's brilliant at BJJ but his expertise does not extend anywhere outside of it.

>>242601
>He will break his own neck before he does a beautiful judo throw on anyone "on the streetz"
Yeah he wouldn't break his neck if he got a wrestling body lock on the str-ACK

>>242700
>Have you tried both like I have? Clearly not
Tell everyone exactly how long you have trained wrestling and judo respectively.

>>242715
>You gotta do it for 10 years before it works bro!

Lmao. Ultimate bullshido cope

>>242714
Genuinely did he die?

Also if he went for a body lock or single leg/double he would have been fine. He tried to do some crazy suplex

https://www.reddit.com/r/judo/comments/1jeaufz/it_took_me_15_years_to_finally_throw_people/

Oh no no no no

>>242697
>Hell, 6 months kickboxing would be better
He said his goal was to learn grappling and that he specifically wants to get into judo. Read and think before you sperg out at your keyboard next time.

>>242700
I wrestled for over 10 years and trained judo for over 5 years. I've helped coach people in both. Judo is like something between Greco and freestyle while wearing clothes and allowing submissions, it's not that radically different.

>>242722
>redditor is timid and retarded
This isn't judo's fault, the same kid would be working a defensive game in wrestling and not aggressively trying for takedowns for fear of getting countered.

>>242714
>>242720
>some crazy suplex
This is a good example of a normal baseline fundamental wrestling technique that stops working once you start getting old and out of shape.

>>242747
https://www.reddit.com/r/judo/comments/6fv5yj/for_those_who_have_practiced_both_wrestling_and/

>>242768
>Wrestling is more brute force.
Yes, thank you, that's what I was getting at. The heavier emphasis on brute force results in situations is why a suplex is a perfectly normal technique when you're an athletic kid/young adult but once you start to get old and out of shape it becomes "some crazy suplex" that results in getting self-rekt on the sidewalk.

>>242772
That guy wasn't old and most Judo throws require you to do some crazy shit on par with suplexes desu

The easiest techniques are body lock dumps or knee picks, which obviously judo forbids

The sad thing is I would like to learn judo as it has a clear progression, belt system, tournaments for adults etc. it's just that I don't think it omitting the easiest highest percentage takedowns and having very strict rules makes it something worth learning

Every thread on any forum will confirm what said, wrestling = easy and natural, good for fighting
Judo = complicated and difficult, less effective in fighting

>>242720
>>Also if he went for a body lock or single leg/double he would have been fine
ohnonono

>>242786
>>242570
>>242632
>>242695
>>242705
>The easiest techniques are body lock dumps or knee picks, which obviously judo forbids
Body locks are legal in judo you fucking retard. You have been complaining about something that you don't even know the rules for.

>>242792
Now post the videos where it works

>>242786
>That guy wasn't old
He was older than his wrestling years and out of shape relative to the physicality required for the suplex.
>Judo throws require you to do some crazy shit on par with suplexes
No, they don't. Normal judo techniques require less athleticism than wrestling techniques by design. Once you get into niche high level competition stuff there are throws that require high athleticism but those are far outside of the basic curriculum, whereas a "crazy suplex" is a normal technique that you train every single day of freestyle/Greco wrestling practice.
>The easiest techniques are body lock dumps or knee picks, which obviously judo forbids
Why do you think judo bans body lock dumps? I disagree that these are the easiest techniques. Taking koshi-guruma to the ground (headlock takedown in wrestling) is probably the easiest one to sloppily muscle into. The US Marine Corps Martial Arts Program (MCMAP) which uses judo, jujitsu, and wrestling teaches osoto-gari (they call it a "leg sweep") as the very first takedown in their 27.5 hour crash course on combatives.
>wrestling = easy
Nobody who has actually wrestled thinks this. In high school most of the new kids who would join our team would drop out after the first two weeks because wrestling is hard in ways that most people struggle with. In contrast, my university judo classes and club barely had any dropouts. You're completely talking out of your ass parroting your interpretation of Reddit comments.
>Judo = complicated and difficult, less effective in fighting
Judo has been part of every published US military combatives system (outside of early specialized bayonet and cavalry fencing manuals) which are crash courses in being effective in hand-to-hand combat. If your instructor isn't terrible and you're at least as smart and able-bodied as an ASVAB-waivered recruit judo really shouldn't be that difficult to learn.
>I would like to learn judo
You should, it's good fun and a solid way to cross train.

>>242804
I'm just going to do MMA grappling because they only take what actually works in a real fight and doesn't waste time on anything else

>Gi grips
>95% of throws
>Gi shit in general

Doesn't work when someone's trying to fuck you up. If I'm going to risk injury to learn a martial art long term I want to learn something useful

I read enough threads that confirm my experience stiff arming, strength and keeping hips back negates all judo at an intermediate level. Whereas a punch into leg attack or body lock is much more effective

Just google how long it takes most people to execute a throw in randori. Years.

>>242810
>I'm going to do MMA grappling
Neat, those are fun classes. Make sure it's actually MMA grappling and not just a BJJ class if that's what you're after. BJJ is fun and worthwhile but has notoriously poor takedowns on average, which seems contrary to your priorities.
>they only take what actually works in a real fight
*in a real MMA match
There's a lot of overlap but it's not 1:1.
>Gi grips
>95% of throws
>Gi shit in general
>Doesn't work when someone's trying to fuck you up. If I'm going to risk injury to learn a martial art long term I want to learn something useful
MCMAP uses a fair number of gi techniques because they're usually wearing clothes while fighting people who are usually also wearing clothes. Gi grips have closely analogous no-gi grips and you can make many of the same throws work. The Marine Corps and Army have been training judo throws since at least the WWI era which saw heavy pressure testing of hand-to-hand systems.
>I read enough threads that confirm my experience stiff arming, strength and keeping hips back negates all judo at an intermediate level.
Stiff arming and defensive posture shouldn't be a showstopping issue past novice level unless there's something wrong with you or your coach. Strength applies to every discipline--skill helps but can only offset so much of a strength difference.
>Whereas a punch into leg attack or body lock is much more effective
Punching into a leg attack is MMA, not wrestling. It is actually traditionally part of judo but normie sport-focused schools don't touch it. Normie judo has your body lock.
>Just google how long it takes most people to execute a throw in randori. Years.
I've seen it done routinely well within a semester by many dozens of adult white belts in the aforementioned university class. "Years" is absurd for a normal person training consistently under a reasonably competent instructor.

>>242792
A nigger would have stomped his head after he dropped

>>242792
>drops his hands to fix his pants
I heard a story from a cop about a suspect that almost got away. They were chasing him and his sagged pants fell down enough to trip him and cause him to faceplant on the sidewalk. The two cops doubled over laughing so hard that the guy had time to collect himself, stand back up, fix his pants, and start running again. Highlights the value of this discussion >>225994

>>242810
>Gi grips
>95% of throws
>Gi shit in general
>Doesn't work when someone's trying to fuck you up
False.

>>242810
>I read enough threads that confirm my experience

>>234953 (OP)
as someone who did both, don't delude yourself : the techniques are ver similar and using a judo techniques in real life will definitely demand a lot of strength, techniques and will throw you off balance with the inertia. I prefer wrestling over judo for several reasons, the most important is that I find it more "free" in it's way to handle a match and sparing than a judo lesson.

>>242810
Unless you're fighting shirtless niggers all the time, knowing how to use the clothing on your opponent is a huge tactical advantage. You may not control an elbow by gripping the naked skin, but you can easily do so by grabbing a sleeve. Same with lapels. You would have known this had you gotten into actual fights

>>243356
Most clothing is nowhere near the thickness and durability of a gi

Most clothing will stretch or rip first before anything else

Getting Gi grips whilst being headbutted or punched is a fools errand

If you had gotten in actual fights you'd know it's people swinging for your head and you either punch back, duck under into tackle or you get KO'd

Find just one street fight video where someone establishes grips whilst being punched. I'll wait.

>>243368
>Find just one street fight video where someone establishes grips whilst being punched. I'll wait.
This is how hockey fights work.

>>243368
>Find just one street fight video where someone establishes grips whilst being punched. I'll wait.
gg ez

>>243389
>Fight

That's a fat drunk man flailing around. What did I say about "judo" only working on old drunk people?

Kek

>>243436
>What did I say about "judo" only working on old drunk people?
You've flip-flopped between saying you need to be a judo black belt to take down a drunk guy and saying that actually anybody can take a drunk guy. Now you just say everyone in the clips are drunk as cope because you don't want to admit you've gotten BTFO for the millionth time in this thread.

>>243369
They use judo too sometimes.

>>243502
Cope

>>236825
>Wrestling as the physical workout
this is wrong.
Wrestling will make you physically stronger than judo quicker but wrestling is extremely technical as well. If you go on just strength you will easily get heemed by dudes who not as strong as you.

>>243675
No you won't

And judo is even harder to ippon someome stronger/bigger than you


Wrestling you will learn leg attacks, rear bodylock etc. none of that is taught in judo

>>243676
>No you won't
yes, you will.
even if the dude is not as strong as you if he is a good wrestler you will loose.

>>243679
What's your point

>>243676
>rear bodylock etc. none of that is taught in judo

>>243787
And irl he's broken his own shoulder and elbow

A bjj or wrestler would have just flattened him out and controlled him or chokes him

>>243798
Uh oh this wrestler would've broken his arm and elbow IRL!

>>243798
>A bjj or wrestler would have just flattened him out and controlled him or chokes him
...which you can do in judo. You're getting mad at things that you've made up in your head.

>>243799
Didn't pin him and he landed flat on his stomach
What was the point in that

I'm a nobody but Im gonna put my foot down right here
>Judos most valuable lesson universally applicable in all walks of life
Knowing how to fall and not die, basically avoiding falling and shattering your hips or skull
>Wrestling
On the streets? Falls apart if you eat a foot to the face or your opponent has the wherewithal to sprawl
>Self defense?
I don't enjoy the prospects of hugging a fucking drunkie or a hobo
>Strength and athleticism
Dictate success rate and available options for a particular engagement, but knowledge of grappling should guide you on what you can and can't do
No one argue me on this
>Muh age
See the previous point, there's a big difference between making a decision based on unknowns and one based on wisdom and experience, unlike that moron in the post that suplexed on concrete

>>243875
Cool story time:

When I was a teenager I was walking in the shopping centre with my very first girlfriend.
I looked like a emo/metalhead with long hair, skinny jeans etc

A guy 1 year older from the same college saw me
He was annoying and always shit testing and trying to mog people

I talked to him briefly and for some reason he tried to double/Single leg me. I'm guessing he was trying to mog me in front of my girlfriend..

I didn't even know what wrestling or grappling was, but I instinctively sprawled on him and got him in a headlock/guillotine

I remember this guy was always going on about how he would groin strike people in a fight etc. and then I saw his hand try to reach for my dick area

So I cranked his neck and he tapped.. he was all friendly afterwards. My jeans had a tear in the knee though and everyone around us was staring

I didn't even know any of this stuff had a name it just came naturally to me lmao.

Do people have to be taught this shit?

Nah but seriously this happened kek
feels good looking back at it

[spoiler]And that guys name? Albert Einstein [/spoiler]

>>243906
>Do people have to be taught this shit?
Most teaching consists of refining technique and drilling reflexes to perfection. The basic premise is fairly natural to anyone who grew up roughhousing with siblings or neighborhood children. Kids who grew up with completely sedentary lifestyles do sometimes need to be coached on basic human movement patterns, which was less common of a problem when we were young but sadly more and more prevalent in recent years.

>>243802
To score points? For fuck’s sake does ANYONE here grapple at all??

>>235167
She must be pretty hench to be able to throw someone around her body completely like that

>>244192
She's strong for her size and extremely skilled (Olympic gold medalist, 5x World Champion) but she's tiny (5'2", under 115lbs):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uta_Abe
This is more of a demonstration of skill than pure strength. The base throw works by pulling your opponent a big off balance, tripping them over your hips, and guiding them to the ground with your arms:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SU7Id6uVJ44
Instead of staying standing and guiding her opponent to the ground with her arms, Abe threw her entire body weight into throwing her opponent over her hips, making for a much more spectacular throw and allowing her to end in a pin.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NDaQuJOFBYk

>>243954
I'm pretty sure that's the guy saying judo is near-impossible to learn and that "wrestling" is a flawless, complete, and intuitive system despite admitting to having negligible experience in either discipline. Some of us grapple but he does not.

>>244200
>This is more of a demonstration of skill than pure strength. The base throw works by pulling your opponent a big off balance, tripping them over your hips, and guiding them to the ground with your arms:
It's been over a decade since I've done any judo, but I feel like you could resist this by wrapping yourself around your opponent surely?
Or would that be against the rules?

>>244204
>It's been over a decade since I've done any judo, but I feel like you could resist this by wrapping yourself around your opponent surely?
There are counters to every throw. The trick is to use them in a context where they're not going to be countered. This is a common throw in judo and wrestling so it's not particularly gimmicky.
>Or would that be against the rules?
You can do that but if your balance is adequately broken it's not going to work. If your balance isn't adequately broken you can turn it into a solid counter throw:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fgi9b8DJ5sQ

>>244212
>There are counters to every throw. The trick is to use them in a context where they're not going to be countered
I don't mean in the sense of a judo counter, because I understand that in sports judo the scoring system is somewhat artificial in the way it scores knockdowns, I mean that even if you end up at the bottom of a pin the choke is backwards for applying pressure to the neck and you're in a position to apply a reverse choke right?

I'm sure getting slammed into concrete rather than a mat would hurt more (and if you didn't know any break falls then you're probably going to get badly injured) but I feel like even if the throw is successful it's not decisive

>>244223
>you're in a position to apply a reverse choke right?
Not really, you'd have to break the pin before being in a position to try a choke. Your only option on the mat is to fight into position to roll out of it (you do kind of wrap around your opponent for some of these techniques, perhaps that what you meant) and your only extra options off the mat are to pull a weapon or try to fish for an eye gouge (however, the person applying the pin is in a better position to pull a weapon, employ an eye gouge, or switch to a more serious attack).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_TS0YHdxcQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sEmKk3m8nwE

I've used this pin to subdue people off the mat who needed a moment to calm down and rethink their life choices after trying to hit me. I've used it when sparring with weapons to isolate my opponent's weapon hand, strip the weapon, and resume an armed attack against an unarmed opponent. It's very effective and it gives you the ability to scale force from lightly controlling someone to absolutely crushing the air out of their lungs (if they're not a grappler used to that kind of pressure, which most people aren't). It's my favorite pin in judo, my favorite pin off the mat, and one of my favorite pins in wrestling (stacking someone up on his neck with a double chicken wing is a little more entertaining).

>>244232
Fair enough, I'll defer to your experience then