Thread 283181391

Name one battle shonen protagonist that doesn't get ruined by "chosen one"/special bloodline/demon bullshit. One that just remains a regular person from start to finish.

>>283181391 (OP)
goku is a literal average joe that comes from a jobber race in the great scheme of things

>>283181391 (OP)
>ancestor and implied reincarnation of yoriichi
XD

I don’t remember if ging is considered the strongest hunter. He was good for sure but he wasn’t number one.

>>283181391 (OP)
>Son of a legendary being
Natsu's dad is some random dude who died. We don't even know his name.

>>283181391 (OP)
Goku was average for his race, and his race isn't even particularly strong.
He literally got to the point he is now because he trains a lot.

>>283181391 (OP)
Ging isn't the greatest hunter

It's sad how for YYH, the instant Yusuke's ancestry becomes a plotpoint - the series immediately turns to shit. The second half of the sensui fight was awful and so was 3 kings arc. Before that, it was nearly perfect

>>283181391 (OP)
How about you read something besides stuff made for preteens?

>>283181391 (OP)
Osamu.

>>283181391 (OP)
Op hates Konjiki no Gash

>>283181572
Target audience has zero impact on writing

>>283181391 (OP)
Jonathan Joestar

>>283181391 (OP)
your mom

>>283181391 (OP)
>>283181413
>>283181434
Unless you are an alien like Goku and Superman then no you can't be an average joe and be a hero.
If if you are an average joe physically you would still have to be a freak mentally to be a hero.

>>283181632
>son of the previous king
>twin brother is one of the main villains

>>283181664
>makes his bloodline special because he fought against Dio

>>283181391 (OP)
what a bullshit thread. even in real life you need to have some connections and generational wealth in order to do big around the globe. fucking tourist nufag couldn't figure it out

>>283181842
OP is someone who jumped late into One Piece and read the Wano arc as their first shonen. You can tell because of the extreme uptick in these threads when Luffy got his special powerup.

>>283181842
>even in real life you need to have some connections and generational wealth in order to do big around the globe
OP is retarded but so are you, who the fuck reads shonen for realism?

>>283181391 (OP)
Vending Machine Isekai

>>283181557
as a kid I just found that supercool lol

but rereading it recently in a storytime, I realized that, while Yusuke has a demon ancestor, the real chosen one from a shonen perspective is Kuwabara
>can see spirits and shit since the beginning
>he's way more gifted than Yusuke in spiritual energy control
>literally has the super exclusive power that can cut through dimension that no other creature of any realm has

shame he was shafted in the final arc, but I guess it's not easy to work fights around an unblockable sword that can also teleport you

>>283181732
you dont know shit about dragon ball human in z were strong enough to make most saiyans their bitch
race is bullshit in dragon ball so is training

>>283181391 (OP)
Why is any of that inherently bad?

>>283181496
+ dragon ball without it he wouldnt survive earth

>>283181391 (OP)
Why is Kenshin in this picture? He was literally just the son of some dirt farmers who worked extremely hard from a young age. Rurouni Kenshin mogs your favorite shonen btw.

>>283181391 (OP)
>no special bloodline, just pure and raw training

>>283182047
Giving them a cheat code or special bloodline that inherently makes them better than everyone else makes it impossible to sympathize with or become invested in their characters. It turns the plot armor that comes with being the protagonist into a literal in-universe thing rather than just a writing thing

Goh Kenji. Go read it because it's the best adventure manga you'll ever read.

>>283182089
agreed, "trained by" cannot be put on the same category as le chosen one

also, it's noted that his swordstyle destroys his body exactly because he's not a superhuman freak like his master

>>283182112
>chosen one to breed king arthur and rin's anus
Bullshit

>>283182112
1- not a shonen 2- his adopted dad was a super OP mage-killer and he got Excalibur's sheath inside him powering him up and healing him the entire time

>>283181391 (OP)
>Name one Greek protagonist that doesn't get ruined by "chosen one"/special bloodline/Zeus bullshit. One that just remains a regular person from start to finish.

>>283182157
>Her anus is defenseless.
>It contracts every time I move, looking like a second reproductive opening.
>Tohsaka's anus.

>>283182124
FUCK sympathize

>>283182089
>>283182154
I think more importantly is that he never gets any big reveals added to his backstory to make him more special. His original introduction is completely honest about who he is.

>>283181391 (OP)
Nah. Deku worked for every bit of his power. He couldn't use the shit without killing himself for the first two seasons. Being trained by the best means nothing if you don't have the effort required to make it.

>>283181391 (OP)
Is senku exempt from this group?

>>283182124
>makes it impossible to sympathize with or become invested in their characters
Why? I don't see why it would.

>>283182174
All Greek heroes all self-destructed or died an ugly death later on though.
Except Percy I think.

>>283182165
UBW is definitely shounen.
>Kerry
Fucker taught Shirou nothing but 'lmao I train him the wrong way as a joke'.
Like, he didn't even get to use the Origin Bullet which would have been a huge help against certain Masters like Illya.
>Avalon
He died for like multiple times even with its healing.

>>283181391 (OP)
I have no idea why people obsessed with this idea that a protagonist should just be a completely ordinary person that somehow topples the power structure of these fantasy worlds. The point in having a gifted MC is that it allows you to have a fish out of water protagonist all the while allowing them to keep up with others and having tension in the fights. Things get explained to them because they're new, but they matter enough to be put with the big boys allowing you to tie them to the world's main plot, and you get tension over whether or not they can use the skill they just learned. If you're doing a sports manga or something you can have a story like that but in these big fantastical shonen worlds filled with different organizations no one would really care if Luffy spent the entire run time in the East Blue or if it took Ichigo 40 years to get like Vice Captain level.

>>283181496
Kek, kids these days don't know what they are talking about.

Gash Bell is both at the same time. Gash himself is son of the king with an OP super spell, but the protagonist is just a clever boy and nothing else.

>>283181413
>this coming from a human, a race with an average power level of 5
Fuck off

>>283182239
This, I agree nips are obsessed with having golden genes but Deku proved being worthy of the gift, and worked his ass off to unlock its secrets.

>isn't related to the great ancient hero, just some guy he taught
>dad didn't even manage to train him properly before he died
>didn't have anywhere near the raw talent of said great ancient hero, he just worked his ass off
>was trained by ghosts, but those ghosts were just other apprentices who died before becoming demon slayers
>didn't even win. the main villain killed him and would have gotten away if he didn't get cut off in traffic

>>283182295
dr stone characters are in low superhuman calcs. they each represent a group of like a few peak humans in a given category, put in one body.

>>283181391 (OP)
>you also can't be trained by someone too good or you're now a "chosen one"
lmao
kenshin and ed don't belong there.
The chart had plenty of valid examples already .

>>283182366
They can be naturally talented but stuff like the Nika bullshit in OP or Naruto being the reincarnation of Asura in addition to being the 4th's son is just fucking overkill. Or Ichigo literally having a slice of every type of supernatural person on his 23andMe chart instead of just being the son of a shinigami captain. Something like Denji where he happened to befriend a very powerful devil or Tanjirou where he's the reincarnation of the strongest swordsman's friend who carried on the swordsman's teachings isn't goign overboard.

>>283182362
>He died for like multiple times even with its healing.
That's because he's a retard, just because he sucks at using his special talent doesn't mean he doesn't have it.

>>283182483
What's his special talent?

>>283181413
really? we had turles, cumber, z broly and yamoshi. some sayians can past normal limits

>>283181391 (OP)
>ruined
Why does this ruin anything? Its just another trope. Why are some shounen readers so obsessed with having their MC be completely normal?

>>283182531
Having a magic sword inside him that makes him incredibly resillient (but not immortal).

>>283182366
My main complaint is that sometimes it feels unnecesary, but nips insist in doing it anyway, IDK if it's a cultural thing or an editorial thing but it's repetitive as fuck. Take Luffy, why the hell did they have to turn him into Nikka? He was fine as a free spirit who didnt give a single fuck about getting a ridiculous power and instead made the best of it with training and ingenuity. It would have made perfect sense for him to inspire others to rebel against an oppressive world government, efectively bringing the legend of the god of freedom back to life. But no, he HAD to be the literal reincarnation of a cartoon.

>>283182546
Because often times, it's tacked on to the story long past the point where it makes any real difference

You don't need to make them "le chosen one" if all that's going to amount to them is doing the same stuff they were already doing/going to do. All that's changed is that now that instead of having a personal reason for doing it, they're it because destiny says they have to

>>283182472
Ed wasn't even trained by his dad, was he?

>>283181654
then explain why non-shonen doesn't have this issue and all >>283181391 (OP) is shonen

>>283182366
>I have no idea why people obsessed with this idea that a protagonist should just be a completely ordinary person that somehow topples the power structure of these fantasy worlds

It's an old Dungeons and Dragons trope, the fact it gets brought up on /a/ is almost certainly complete trolling. Best to just ignore it.

>>283181413
>>283182020
Why be so dishonest? The Saiyans aren’t “average” by any standard. They’re literally the only race with forms strong enough to take on demons like Majin Buu, and that’s not even mentioning Super.
>B-but muh hard work
Guys like Krillin could train three times harder than Goku their entire lives and still wouldn’t be able to beat guys like Ginyu

>>283181391 (OP)
Ginta from Mär is literally just a middle school kid. He does get a basic powerup but it doesn't make him much stronger than the lowest level threat of the fantasy realm he gets isekai'd into. His dad is also just a regular father who was also isekai'd into the same situation. He isn't part of a prophecy, no demon vessel, no god or reincarnation of some greatest hero. Just a kid and ends the series still just a kid

>>283182546
It's a collective over-reaction to chosen-one stories having too much plot-armor or perceived unearned success. So they want to go the completely opposite direction.
But neither approach is inherently better than the other.
(They also refuse to process that characters like naruto worked harder than most to mostly earn their place.)

>>283181654
Target audience has an enormous impact on writing. You would know this if you had read more than one thing.

>>283182546
Adding unnecessary tropes literally make a story worse, hello? It's either self-indulgent or straight up worse for the plot. Naruto's initial story was about being a nobody who trying to claw his way into being accepted by society. Him being both the son of the dead President and the reincarnation of the son of a deity + Founding Father was completely unnecessary and took away from that message. All of his training was handed to him by people who knew his dad too.

>>283182670
>All of his training was handed to him by people who knew his dad too.
So is getting trained by your parents also dishonest then?
I really need a checklist for an "Honest Protag", so i can keep up with all these arbitrary rules.

>>283182617
doesn't isekai do the same thing with the "I reincarnated with a super special cheat skill" bullshit

>>283182733
I never said it was dishonest. It's just that he's objectively a nepo baby and it detracts from the initial premise where he's an orphan who has to claw his way to relevance.

>>283182599
I can agree when done that way its useless for the narrative. I don't like the Luffy Sun God or the Natsu and Yusuke being demon. But I dont think it ruins them

>>283182763
>an orphan isn't allowed to get the rare help from the few connections he has, else he's a nepo
again, you're just dancing around calling him dishonest

Rock Lee ruined an entire generation of anime fans.
Rock Lee fags think it's bad to have any kind of renown, talent, or even connections to successful people.
Rock Lee fags think Rock Lee is the protagonist of every shonen anime and every shonen must be about hard work vs talent.

>>283182744
yes but your past life is a Salaryman.
It's the least special/chosen bloodline because you're always the reincarnation of a Salaryman from Earth.

>>283182670
yeah... its kind of jarring later on how special naruto is, but he was apparently treated like an outcast and shunned by everybody. just the fact that he's the fourth hokage's son should have entitled him to be at least a comfortable child growing up

>>283182670
Naruto was never a nobody even chapter 1. I agree the reincarnation stuff sucked though, but I guess Kishi wanted to focus more on the "Cycle of shinobi" theme.

>>283182827
this is the eternal struggle of Mushoku no Eiyuu threads this cour.

>>283182827
lee fags also eternally missing the point of Lee instantly giving up with chakra

>>283182838
>just the fact that he's the fourth hokage's son should have entitled him to be at least a comfortable child growing up
because nobody ever told him or the villagers that he was for some retarded reason

>>283182827
It's funny too cause Lee lost that fight, despite some stupid Sandarmor stuff, yet people came out with the wrong message.

>>283181391 (OP)
Pegasus Seiya is complicated. He's always presented as a reckless moron with balls of steel but all the spin-offs really like the angle of "A Pegasus saint was next to Athena in every Holy War" despite the manga barely explored it and arguably that make the Pegasus cloth more important than even the gold cloths

Denji merging with Pochita has been a source of constant negatives in his life minus the immortality

>>283183059
no drawbacks or nuance allowed

>>283181753
Gash Being the son of the King didn't make him special. He started off as one of the weakest in the tournament and the only reason Zeon was strong was because he spent his whole childhood training for the battle. Demons get a base spell from their type but they make their own spells and they gain strength by growing as a person. Some demons are just naturally stronger, like the dragons or Grom, but Gash was not one of them.

>>283181391 (OP)
Does Kenshin really count? Sure, Hiko is OP but Kenshin himself doesn't have the physical condition to practice the Hiten Mitsurugi and eventually he's forced to not use it anymore, at least before Watsuki started the Hokkaido arc. Kenshin was the son of a peasant family, his dad was just a simple farmer that died from cholera

>>283183158
>Gash Being the son of the King didn't make him special
but he inherited the strongest spell from him

>>283183008
NTA but Lee didn't lost one fight but every fight he has been with Guy being the one who won all the fights. He is literally proto POTENTIAL MAN.

>>283183307
>Lee didn't lost one fight
do spics really think Lee beat Gara?

>>283181391 (OP)
>ruined
I will conceede some of these are terrible.
But you also need to understad that traits that make your character different do not automatically make them less.
It all depends in the context of the story. For instance, Edward's story is deeply personal and is directly related to his family, so it makes a lot of sense in a narrative point of view for him to have relationship to the villain.
Likewise, Kenshin works because he is looking for atonement and has a lot of regrets directly related to the thing that makes him special.
Every narrative trope has a place and can be used well/badly, OP. It's what keeps storytelling fresh.

>>283181391 (OP)
Saitama from One Punch Man.

>>283183321
Fuck i forgot to write "just", i want to say that Lee didn't just lost one fight but all fights he has been. Meanwhile Guy was the one who won fights.

>>283181391 (OP)
Yugi
Hell, Yami also sort of counts. Sure, Yami has magic powers that let him do shadow games, but as far as i can remember, the shadow games were never rigged so there was a real chance for him to lose. Of course, Yami is smarter than most of his opponents so he never lost, but the possibility was very real.
And Yugi defeated Yami at the end.

>>283182475
>>283182583
I agree with you two in that it can be done poorly (Naruto and Ichigo are awful) but most anons don't seem to look at it as an idea that can be done poorly or well, but rather as an idea that shouldn't be done at all. I truly don't understand it, I figure it's just what >>283182627 says.

>>283183435
heart of the cards is plain bullshit, but pretty much everyone in ygo cheat, so i guess it balances out sometimes

>>283182670
>Him being both the son of the dead President and the reincarnation of the son of a deity + Founding Father was completely unnecessary and took away from that message. All of his training was handed to him by people who knew his dad too.
What? Naruto's being connected to many powerful people did not make him any less lonely or ostracized growing up. Naruto's themes are about (mis)understanding others, forming bonds, the redemptive power of love, the cycle of violence, the nature of trauma, loneliness, etc.; none of that is undermined by Naruto's being powerful. At the end of the day, the story keeps emphasizing how Naruto could've easily wound up like Gaara, or Nagato, or Obito. It's about how he uses that power and to what ends. Naruto gained his power ups by getting others to trust. He only gets as powerful as he does because he managed to convince an ancient demon with a hatred and loathing of mankind for centuries to trust him and his honesty. Naruto was granted many opportunities by his innate talent and assistance given by others, but at the end he SEIZED those opportunities by HIMSELF, with his own life philosophy. The entire point of Naruto is that you can't do things alone. Naruto is the culmination of the wisdom and hard work of generations of men, who all walked so he could run. There's nothing more fitting to the story's themes than that.

>>283183464
I appreciate how in later seasons they transparently bullshit cards out of nowhere. Also at least Yugi had some power cards because early staples were kind of broken, there's no way Jaden wasn't stacking his deck every game.

>>283183288
It wasn't that strong, it failed constantly. Bari tanked it with a basic ass shield spell, Leo tanked a 5x zaguruzemo Baou, true form Baou still lost to Zeon's ultimate spell and only succeeded the second time by combining everyone's strength.

>>283182827
In this respect, I guess you could really say Naruto is the most influential manga in the past 25 years since Rock Lee mindbroke three generations with his hard work vs talent false dichotomy

>>283183474
The problem is more that it makes the side characters that should've been doing something for him look retarded. There's no reason ramenbro should've been the only guy looking out for him.

>>283182827
Naruto's themes change a lot from Part 1 to Part 2, this isn't up for debate.

For instance, Part 1 certainly had a theme of the new generation surpassing the old, but Part 2 completely throws that out the window, all the strong characters aside from Naruto and Sasuke are from previous generations while their generation does jack shit

>>283181391 (OP)
>Name one battle shonen protagonist that doesn't get ruined by "chosen one"/special bloodline/demon bullshit.
In Shaman King(the manga) MC is basically a clone of the strongest being ever and still jobs in the end because the real chosen one was the antagonist.

>>283183549
The set up of Naruto is obviously incredibly contrived. But I think it pays off and it ends up working very well. But come on. That was an issue with the story from the start. It was obvious that Naruto was Minato's son (what other child could he have found to seal Kurama into?) from early Naruto, and nobody actually knew that Asura had transmigrated into Naruto.

>>283183617
It also retconned to shit how lonely he was later. They made a big deal of it early, but later in the series they constantly flashbacked that actually he played with Shimamaru and co all the time and their parents encouraged it. The moral of the story is that Kishi is a hack.

>>283183560
The new generation surpassing the old is still a theme in Part II. If anything, it is more prominent in Part II (think the Hidan and Kakuzu Arc). You're just thinking in shounen action terms. The new generation surpasses the old by creating a more stable peace between the villages from the lessons of the failures of Hashirama's era. Surpassing the past doesn't necessarily translate to "having betterer jutsus".

>>283181391 (OP)
Being a Super Saiyan had no bearing on Goku's character and his playing field got leveled immediately. You had the perfect low hanging fruit with the DBS manga bullshit and chose to complain about a total non-issue instead.

>>283183617
minato only sealed half in naruto
that whole retarded segment also demonstrated that minato simply could have sealed the entirety inside himself since he was dead anyway.
But then kishi would have had to write a new story.
but then boruto erases kurama anyway

>>283181391 (OP)
We never found out Ichigo's full potential. 600 chapters later. He's still untrained with an halfassed hollowfication that he can't even use without help in the FINAL ARC. Fuck the writer of Bleach.

>>283183662
That was anime original shit, though. It was never in the manga. Shikamaru in Part II if anything expresses regret at having helped ostracize Naruto when they were younger.

>>283183726
>put in filler that directly contradicts the source material
>not bad character writing
>not silly things that wouldn't happen
>not a random 1 off anachronistic object
>events in a flashback directly contradictory to the story as it was written
Why must they be like this?

>>283183794
The writers for the anime filler just wanted the dynamic that Shikamaru and Naruto have by the latter half of the Chuunin Exams, but they kept retrojecting it to a point where it made no sense. At the start of the Chuunin Exams, Shikamaru is one of the people most hostile towards and disrespectful towards Naruto, but he is also one of the first to turn around and admit Naruto has grown. It's an interesting dynamic seeing Shikamaru go from hating Naruto's guts to having incredible respect for him.

>>283182629
>only race with forms strong enough to take on demons like Majin
only goku could fight majin buu animetard, vegeta the gift saiyan couldn't fight buu
holy i ficking hate animetard anime culture so much its unbelievable

>>283181391 (OP)
>Goku
>Chosen one
Retard.

>>283181391 (OP)
Jonathan Joestar wasn't special, he made his bloodline special.

>>283183677
Everything involving the shinigami is total bullshit. It's the only jutsu with more retcons than appearances.

>>283181436
He's confirmed top 5, but not confirmed to be #1.

>>283184182
Jiraiya already mentions that Naruto received half of Kurama before being killed by Pain while talking to the frog carrying the key to Naruto's seal. The Shinigame also results in something's being sealed within the user, so it's one of the more consistent aspects of Naruto lore I would say.

>>283182629
>The Saiyans aren’t “average” by any standard.
They are. Nappa is what passes as a mid class warrior for them and Nappa is nothing in the grand scheme of things.
>They’re literally the only race with forms strong enough to take on demons like Majin Buu, and that’s not even mentioning Super.
>not even mentioning Super.
Where it's made abundantly clear that the majority of the Z villains have greater potential than Goku? Frieza becomes god tier in a couple of months. 17 can fight SS3 tier opponents after looking after Cell Jrs. Even Vegeta got some really impressive feats now that he actually has a master instead of being self taught.

>>283182644
It depends on the work

>>283181391 (OP)
Osamu Fucking Mikumo

>>283182629
Only Goku was ever strong enough to do it though. The average Saiyan isn't shit.
Hell Saiyans get their asses kicked all the time.

ENTER

>>283184493
I mean, if this qualifies as a battle shonen show then Pokemon would qualify, too.

>>283181391 (OP)
Who is the character below Deku?

>>283182366
americans still think the american dream is real and not propaganda to get a diligent working class.
also most retards only ever read shonen and don't understand genre's trappings

>>283181391 (OP)
Gon isn't a chosen one at all, he gets BTFO all the time

>>283184684
The Gay Man

>>283181391 (OP)
Name one reason being a chosen one is bad outside of the internet telling you it is and because it makes you feel less special. I swear, where did this all come from?

>>283184819
>Name one reason being a chosen one is bad
Depends on who's doing the choosing, why, and if it was even a matter of choice.
Though I can see why some people would be upset with the ones with superior genes being the chosen ones most of the time

>>283181413
>muh race of warriors who solo planets as babies
That's Goku.

Why isn't Kenshiro in the image?

>>283184819
Modern man is a godless narcissist, so the concept of compatibilism (between divine providence/God's predestination of events and human freedom) is anathema to the ethos of his society. Egalitarianism similarly primes people to reject the notion of innate virtue and superiority. It's just pure nonsense, as though the will as a faculty can be contrary to the nature it belongs to and is expressive of. People make choices according to their nature and cannot will to change said nature (even if they can will to refine some inner potential). But modernity rejects essentialist metaphysics, so...

>>283181391 (OP)
this shit is so boring, they really need to make a shonen with a completely normal yet capable MC, none of this preordained bullshit

>>283185020
>completely normal yet capable MC
How capable can someone be and still be "normal"?

>>283184936
>>muh race of jobbers and slaves*
Fixed.

>>283181391 (OP)
Since when was Natsu the son of a legendary being? I thought he was only zerefs half demon brother? Which sucked anyways cause that did not mean anything at all in the series or drop any cool worldbuilding elements.

>>283185058
Slaves to who? The most powerful being in the universe? Then one of their seven year olds obtains the form that beat him. Being Piccolo or any of the humans was a humiliation ritual. They're the real jobbers. Literally any other race.

>>283181391 (OP)
Why the fuck do you care so much? Nothing wrong with someone who accomplishes great things being obviously special.

>>283182307
because you have to be special not only earning it is the argument

>>283185133
Emperor of the universe. Everyone was a slave to him.

>>283182157
kek

>>283181391 (OP)
Guts? Jonathan Joestar was just a normal guy. Saitama is a normal guy. Solo Leveling guy is normal I think I dropped that shit. Denji??? I’m not even a real shonen fan.

>>283181413
Saiyans consistently have strong characters throughtout the franchise. The villains that are stronger than them are usually one offs and not indicative of whatever species they come from.

>>283181934
Because it to some extent has an influence on an author's writing.

>>283181413
zenkai boost

>>283182124
Not true, there's degrees to this. A character being a prodigy or have a relative of some importance doesn't mean they have to be this godking that warps everything to their favor without struggle.

>>283181934
>who the fuck reads shonen for realism?
It's not realism it's a matter verisimilitude. You can't just say "DRRR IT'S FICTION AND A DUMB GENRE!" That's a retarded excuse for retarded writing.

>>283182602
Nope. They just had some books and were self-taught until Izumi came along.

>>283185293
Which of those were published in shonen magazines?

>>283181391 (OP)
Osamu Mikumo, Chihiro Rokuhira

>>283181391 (OP)
Unironically Denji from Chainsaw Man. Okarun from Dandadan as well.

>>283181413
FPBP

>>283182112
>probably secretly descended from muramasa

>>283181391 (OP)
>x trope le bad, because it just is okay
opinion discarded

>>283181391 (OP)
OP you have to understand that when your story have the heroes influencing their whole world it reach a mythology status, therefore you have an important addition of prophecies, gods and powerful ancestors. It's just how mythology works.

Also your characters are supposed to be or do things that common people cannot do, its what create the interests.

You have really to stop doing boring and depressive projections about nepotism and determinism, comparing your life with fictional characters.

>>283181582
My GOAT

>>283181582
Please delete. This does not fit with the OP's propaganda.

>>283181391 (OP)
Turns out any saiyan wothout a tail can go super saiyan with enough effort

>>283181391 (OP)
Joe Yabuki


now go and cry in some corner

>>283182827
Rock Lee was a genius too btw.

>>283181391 (OP)
kenshin is literally right there

>>283181391 (OP)
Gintoki

>>283187217
>Rock Lee was a genius
No he wasn't.
He was about average as for as intelligence goes.
And "prodigy" isn't really applicable to intense training.

Jonathan Joestar was just some british kid, you can't really count anybody later in the bloodline cause joseph was born and raised in that ripple shit and everyone after got stands specifically cause of him. I guess Johnny also counts? New timeline and all that.

>>283187070
I think it annoys people because it's such a tired cliche that usually detracts from a character's feats rather than adds to them. I'm still mad about the Yusuke one (though that's more because the series immediately went from a 9/10 to like a 4/10 as soon as it happened)

>>283181391 (OP)
I'd argue that Ichigo isn't a chosen one nor does his bloodline have anything to do with his powers

being of Shiba blood only got him Getsuga Tensho
Being a Kurosaki only got him Blut Vien

everything else is the result of Urahara, Aizen,Ginjou, Yhwach grooming him either to use him, eat him or suck the power for themselves

That's kinda hot, I'm getting a little bricked up thinking naughty contexts of this.

Ippo is the son of a fisherman. If Hajime no Ippo were a modern shonen he would Mike Tyson's secret japanese son and the long lost descendant of Sugar Ray Robinson and the Marquess of Queensberry.

Also there is nothing wrong with a character being a prodigy or from a special bloodline. It's only bullshit when the story starts out by portraying them as just a regular person then decides that they need to be magic anime jesus in the middle of the story.

Zenkichi

>>283181391 (OP)
Luffy will mindrape Joyboy

>>283181391 (OP)
Goku. Low-power representative of the lowest-class of a weak race, grew up on the softest low-g planet in the universe. Oh, wait, you don't know Dragonball, you just watched the shallow ripoffs.

>>283181391 (OP)
I think maybe you should learn what half the words in your shitty meme mean. The only coherent message in that shit is that OP is an illiterate fag. Put down the NigTok and pick up a book.

>>283183067
Naw, man, that shit's relevant. Who the fuck would consider it a win to gain superpowers if the cost of said superpowers is your dog dying. Congratulations, NPC, you're less humanized than John Fucking Wick.

>>283187435
Rock Lee was absolutely a genius. He was considered so by Kakashi who says that to even get to Gate 5, Lee must be a genius in his own way, as this feat isn't even obtainable to most through hard work alone.

>>283181391 (OP)
Iruma is basically a cripple who needs Alikred and borrowed magic from Sullivan just to achieve parity with the demons.

Goku and Keshin are not chosen ones by any standard. Goku is actually supposed to be amongst the weakest of his race like other anons have said, but unlike the average saiyan he worked his ass off.

>>283181391 (OP)
Luffy has the best Chosen one power-up here. His character and power directly connects to the story and has the most creative power up(cartoon reality bending physics) that completes his caricature/personality. The others are just generic Chosen one power-ups to further the plot, that's not exactly tangible to the overall stories and not to any symbolism of the shows.

>>283189657
He got wanked by being the son of Bardock, whose power level was equal to the strongest Saiyan ever King Vegeta

>retards think the character based on Sun Wukong isn't a chosen one from a special lineage
Come on
Come the fuck on
He got to be trained by multiple gods and angels

What does "chosen one" even mean anymore? It used to refer to a character (typically the protagonist) who's the subject of a literal in-universe prophecy, but now the label is tossed at any protagonist who's special in any way

>>283181413
FPWP

>>283181413
That "average joe" also has a daddy with a powerlevel of 10,000 who can also go Super Saiyan, btw

>>283189868
Sun Wukong isn't a chosen one however

Luffy won

>>283189195
Dragonball is already a shallow ripoff, which Goku is among the strongest races to exist.

>>283181413
That literally "average joe" brat the world's most feared criminal organization in a single day at 12
Let that sink in, Goku steamrolled the Red Ribbon Army in a single day at 12
Jobber race my ass

>>283181413
>O MY 6 SAIYAN FRIENDS HOLD OUT YOUR HANDS AND I GET SUPER GOD KAIOKEN ULTRA!!!!!!!!!!!!

>>283181413
That "average joe" literally the world's most feared criminal organization in a single day at 12
Let that sink in, Goku steamrolled the Red Ribbon Army in a single day at 12
Jobber race my ass

>>283190057
That's in character. He got Super Saiyan and beat up Frieza by Krillin being btfoed so Goku can say "GRRRR YOU HURT MUH HECKIN FWENS SPESHUL SAIYAN POWERUP GO!!!"

>>283189972
not canon

>>283181413
That "average joe" literally beat the world's most feared criminal organization in a single day at 12
Let that sink in, Goku steamrolled the Red Ribbon Army in a single day at 12
Jobber race my ass

>>283181391 (OP)
>just remains a regular person from start to finish.
I can understand wanting a guy to start as a regular guy, but finishing too? That's lame as fuck, you basically want 0 development.
Also there's nothing wrong with being a chose one in itself. Some of these are botched bullshit (e.g. Deku) but they're just written like shit, not the fault of the trope itself if the author fucks it up.

Also, in Ichigo's case, being related to Yahwe is the only relevant part. Being the son of a captain barely registers in comparison, so you could've just left something like "related to a literal god".
Gon barely registers as well, considering how many more OP characters there are in his series and other shonens. He's high in the hierarchy of his own world, but nowhere near "god" level like the others. Not to mention he was literally abandoned by that retarded father.

>>283182827
>Rock Lee fags think it's bad to have any kind of renown, talent, or even connections to successful people.
Do you have?

>>283182205
I have to take a double take every time I see a Fate quote. You can never tell which is real and which is just anon exaggerating.

>>283181413
I swear, some people haven't fucking read Dragon Ball. Goku was always the retard strong shounen protagonist that punched or brute forced everything in his way and even when Tao Pai Pai beat him he just got plot trained in like 2 issues to catch up. And then, when he got the REALZ OMG magic water it was even worse. It was the lamest plot device ever to make him catch up to King Piccolo by drinking plot juice juxtaposed to Tien Shin Han literally killing himself to learn the Mafuba.

Dragon Ball and especially the Saiyans have always SPAT on the idea of training and working hard from day 1. The only time things seemed balanced was when Roshi was training him and Krillin, and the guys in that tournament looked like they stood a chance, but any semblance of Dragon Ball being about effort got evaporated as Toriyama's lust for the "KEK GOKU IS SO STRONG LOOK AT EVERYONE REACTING GUYS" gag grew to pornographic levels. Not that it's not lame that Goku was retconned into an alien, that's still retarded, it just meant that Saiyans were the only ones able to matter as the action cannibalized Dragon Ball's plot even further.

If you want a manga about how much training and hard work can change a person and how martial arts can have a positive effect on them and not just to make him physically stronger, you read Ashita no Joe.
>>283182629
This is also true, because going by Yamcha and Toriyama's comments, Tien Shin Han never surpassed Krillin because the power boost he got on Namek (75,000) was just too big that Tien could never close the gap and Krillin also never showed he got any stronger since Namek. The human characters very likely never surpassed Ginyu (120,000), let alone base Goku at the time he fought Ginyu (90,000).

>>283182239
>Deku worked for every bit of his power.
He literally didn't, he thrown himself like a retard to save someone, which would've only resulted in both of them dying, and the omega retard All might saw this and thought "oh yeh, top tier heerro materiel right there". Both him, and All Might's motivation to give him the superpower are the worst and most fundamental parts of this bullshit.

>>283182239
>>283182433
Every other hero in MHA has to train for their entire lives to use their gifts. The guy Deku was replacing Mirio, Deku's bully Bakugo, Deku's enemy Shiggy, all had to train since they were little. Shoto's entire fucking family went insane from how much they needed to train and selectively breed from infancy to even come close to competing with All Might's golden spoon quirk.

All Deku ever did was some mild exercise for only 6 months, and so was blessed with a quirk that at first he only needed to put mild thought into ("durr I will flick this guy and only break my finger"), then as soon as he figured out he could kick that went out the window and Deku never ever needed to think or train ever again

he's just blessed with le Wan Hundred Billion percent and 7 other fucking quirks for not a smidgeon of the effort everyone else gave.

>>283181632
Came here to say Gash.
> but royal blood
1. His dad was the winner of the previous competition, there is no bloodline
2. He was sent out of the castle as soon as he was born, and was raised like a slave
3. His rivals are all stronger than him, and he never wins on raw power. All of his major victories involve some form of leadership ability paying off.

>>283181391 (OP)
Hey I'll at least say Gon and Kenshin isn't that bad compared to the rest. Kenshin still has to train and unless you want to say Nen is somehow connected to lineage Gon was a kid on an island.

>>283181391 (OP)
This is only bad when the MC pretend to be an underdog/regular joe. When the MC is made out to be special from the start, there is no problem with it.

>>283181391 (OP)
,,, I think Maka and Soul from Soul Eater count. They have a friend that's a literal son of Death, but the 2 main MCs are pretty average gene/ancestry wise in their world.

>>283190279
I'd add that also, even thought it was stupid to begin with but Mirio's existence retroactively made the whole premise just fall apart.
All Might being aware of Mirio, the perfect successor, an embodiement of all the heroic virtues - courage, hard work, self-sacrficie, yet choosing the bestow his power on some random weedy kid he just met because he acted brave (and also retarded) one single time, is, withouat exaggerating, completely fucking retarded and I'd argue ruins his character.

>>283190251
>he just got plot trained in like 2 issues to catch up.
It was a really tall pole and he climbed it thus he worked hard
>REALZ OMG magic water
He earned it by doing pole namek, how many episodes did that even took in the anime lol
Done.

You can sometimes get away with this if the character has personality traits and relationships that don't revolve around their power level or bloodline

But that's rare, or they start out not being defined by those things, but lose all of their other traits as the story progresses

>>283182602
>>283185419
Ed wasn't even portrayed as godly either. He had no god powers that his dad has and never does. No unique or OP alchemy either like Mustang, he can only form circles with his hands instead of drawing it, which isn't particularly special cause others do that too or don't need to
I was actually a little disappointed by that on my first watch, lol. All these OP and special guys and Ed is just a mid-tier normie when all things are said

>>283190454
This. I'm not going to pretend that it hasn't gotten out of hand with how much Oda has tacked on with it but people who think Luffy was an underdog from the start forget that he was hanging around a Yonko as a kid. Sure it's not granting any special powers or whatever but in terms of framing a story that way, there's bound to be more of those shenanigans to come later down the line

>>283190532
also they forget the "human body can't handle multiple quirks at once without life shortening" excuse when they give Deku 8+ quirks
Not that Mirio would say no to a shorter lifespan in exchange for saving people. Deku destroyed the quirk too so it was all a waste

He just happened to be the strongest fucking wizard in the world.

GOAT. Your Shirou, Takeru, and Okarin have no chance against a real goat.

>>283181391 (OP)
What about one who's the other way around?
>Starts as a super special chosen one
>Slowly becomes a normalfag over the course of the story

>mangaka makes mc godking of destiny because it's cool
>target audience looks and thinks ok cool
>"but does it convey the message of working hard in the face of talent and nepotism and any other circumstances in which he may not have werk hard?"

>>283190710
noone complains of this if the manga doesn't bring it up first.
Source: Every Cheat Isekaii ever

>>283190279
but he still had to train before he could get the power
don't see how it's any worse than AM giving a pretty speech to Nana to convince her to give him the power

>>283190710
Yes, shit aimed at kids deserves to have good writing too. And self-inserters deserve to get the rope.

>>283181391 (OP)
Raizen is an ancestor of Yusuke not his father

>>283190997
"YOU CAN DO ANYTHING IF YOU JUST WORK HARD ENOUGH" is the opposite of good writing.

>>283191135
It's a good message for the target audience

>>283181582
Source?

>>283191135
"Some people are just born better than others" is not a good message for children, it teaches them that there's no point in putting effort into anything, that only the "top tiers" matter

>>283191051
the guy born with a factually shitty quirk that numerous other people were unable to use to any effect, and actually became competent through a lifetime of training instead of 6 months of light exercise? Guy who beat up Overhaul even after he got his quirk removed to save Eri? Guy who Nighteye vouched for as the right man for the job with all the ideal personality traits and commital?
Nah he deserves it way more than Broccoli boi

>>283190923
AM was actually a hero fighting villain before he met Nana. He didn't even know Nana has a transferable power, he just wanted to fight crime without a quirk. Deku was just a loser geek before and after All Might handed him the best power ever and had no motive before promised it.

>>283182295
Yes. He says so himself.
His only power is having fit entire wikipedia in his head, and he isn't special in that regard as shown by Dr.Xeno as well as Chrome learning science to a degree he can employ fully fledged plans independently as well as rediscover technology.

Dr. Xeno implies that just about any scientist could do what Senku has if they got revived in time.

>>283184731
The American dream was real once.

And shonen is not a genre

>>283181391 (OP)
Sakamoto from Sakamoto Days
Caiman from Dorohedoro
Aseo from Elden Ring manga
Crawler from MHA prequel
Avan from Dragon Quest prequel

>>283191335
Crawler from MHA is the same as Deku, he just keeps asspulling more and more new powers every single fight until the end when they reveal he actually has Flight like Celebrity which is one of the strongest powers ever comparable to One for All.
And they use the worst ever excuse for it too "I always had all these powers but I just didn't remember because MOMMY HIT ME WAAAHHH"

My GOAT is literally just a delinquent with the heart if gold.
>Joestar bloodline.
All it means is that he's got a stand, so do most named characters in Morioh.
No JoJos aside from Jotaro have been shown to have the strongest stands one possibly could have.
On that note, Johnny Joestar from SBR.
He was a cripple when the series began, and the only reason he came to posses any sort of a power is because he nearly killed himself trying to saddle a horse while CRIPPLED.

>>283191051
My biggest issue with Mirio is that it was the perfect occassion to give Deku some depth by having him selfishly want to keep his power and question if he had all of his friends/respect etc if he were to transfer it.

Would parallel nicely with him giving it up to fight Shiggy later on imho.

>>283182174
If you look at the Iliad Diomedes was based and wasn't blessed by or related to any god.

>>283191446
they basically just admit he wouldn't but don't dwell on it
"Stop, My Invincible Kouhai. If you give me the quirk then you'd be worthless."

>>283191395
Forgot pic.

>>283191395
>All it means is that he's got a stand, so do most named characters in Morioh.
Having trash/average/slightly useful Stand doesn't mean you can stop Jotaro from timestop you or Josuke turn you into some body horror object.

>>283191749
Joot almost died to two rats though.
There are stronger/on par stands in Morioh as well.
Heaven's Door, The Hand, Superfly.

>>283181391 (OP)
Ed being Hohenheim's son has nothing to do with anything besides his appearance, retard.

>>283181391 (OP)
But Natsu was a normal kid with a talented brother, then he died and said brother brought him back better

>>283191929
>he said as he ate lightning and non-flame element despite his dragonslayer means he should only be able to eat one type of element

>>283191749
NTA Johnny's stand was a glorified handgun for most of Part 7

>>283182827
The problem with Rock Lee is that he never gets a single win. And literally everything Guy does in Part 2 could have been given to Lee instead.

>>283191997
Yeah anon.
Meanwhile one dude could turn himself into ropes and another just ignores damage except he can't move while Johnny fucked Funny so hard he had to stay in one specific place in every timeline.

>>283182827
I wanted my protagonists like this ever since what Goku said to Vegeta about hard work surpassing the elite, you disingenuous faggots.

And to a degree, he was even proven right by Guy along with Jiren. Both came from absolutely nothing then wrecked gods.

Pretty sure Kaneki in TG was just some unlucky kid,he also gets his shit pushed a lot

>>283183665
That is obviously not what Kishimoto originally intended with the theme, the original intent was surpassing the old gen in terms of power level

>>283191193
"The truth is not a good message for children." Lmao. Actually children should learn humility from early on to understand that society is a body of mutually interlocking people with different talents and abilities that complement one another such that no single person or group can function properly without everyone else in society, bound by mutual bonds of obligation and common destiny. Part of the reason society is shit today is everyone gets fed the narrative that they can be on the top eventually, producing a society of sociopathic social strivers alienated by an unachievable dream. "Happiness is not found in material success, abjur desire for praise and status, humility is true virtue" is a better message, which ought to be learned early.

>>283192165
>be a good little slave goy

kill yourself kike

So we are just going to ignore the fact that Tanjiro's is completely wrong?

>>283192165
Something being true doesn't make it a good lesson for children. If children were told the truth about the world, they'd never make it to adulthood, they'd kill themselves before they even became teenagers

>>283181391 (OP)
>Tanjiro on there

How did you fall for BOTH fakeouts regarding this? He's not an ancestor of anyone but a hillfolk who's only connection to the super warrior is "Made him feel better one time so super warrior taught him a cool dance". This isn't some super secret technique, it and better versions of it were in a book that existed literally 1 year before he became a demon slayer when some drunk motherfucker burned the thing. ANYONE who had the aptitude could've used it, and in fact many people did before his pissed off brother hunted them all down.

He's not a reincarnation, an actual reincarnation shows up in the flash forwards and he's totally different. He's just some dude who gave the demons PTSD because he used a dance sword jesus showed his greatXwhat the fuck ever grandpa. He well and truly defies this trope by just being pure hard work and more importantly teamwork for every victory he makes, he's not the chosen one he's the one who chose to start swinging.

>>283191193
This is a false dichotomy. Who said this is even the message? People understand that ki blasts are fiction and you're the gay woke who assumes it's a "message against the environment" on a "if you're not for me you're against me" basis alone

>>283192185
"If you work hard enough, you can do anything!" is literally Jewish propaganda. Kek these nu-anti-Semites are literally regurgitating Jewish myths fed to them by ZOG as brave anti-Jewish stands.

>>283192229
All art has a message, whether the artist intended it or not

>>283192264
And that's inherently a bad message, you fucking brainrotted faggot?

I don’t actually care about any of this but insulting dumbass fans of shonen characters makes me feel better when i’m stressed in life.
Characters who outwardly try to praise themself as some shining beacon of hard work and rags to riches when everything about them is an easy guiltless get rich quick lottery are a very easy target, a shallow ego boost telling yourself that you earned it to get the one tiny dopamine boost that being a wanked mary sue doesn’t already get you.

>>283192215
Plenty already did in worst Korea, while the rest effectively refuses to engage in society and goes full NEET with neetbux until they die.

>>283181842
Going through college and finding out the people that went on to make successful businesses and shows all had rich parents backing them was the ultimate black pill.

>>283192297
Yes. It inherently presupposes that the society you live in fairly rewards hard work, which reinforces the status quo that is decided by others as always ideal

>>283192301
Mary Sue is a term that only applies to fanfiction, canon characters can't be Mary Sues

>>283192333
They can if I call them that.

>>283192197
op thinks a character is special for being trained by someone

>>283192197
It's extra funny because there is a chosen one in the story and he fails to kill the big bad. Not through some last minute betrayal like most stories or last minute attack that defeats him or some weird power that sends him to the future or something, no, dude 100 percent was better in that fight and there was no last minute save, the big bad just hauled ass and waited for him to die of old age. That's it. He ran away and hid under a rock till he was sure Yorichi was dead. Not poison not magic and not a stronger demon, just plain old time did the thing he knew he couldn't. Tanjiro isn't related to him by blood or by spirit, he's related to him because once upon a time an act of kindness from Tanjiro's completely normal ancestor inspired him to show them a sun breathing technique that keeps you warm in the cold(Because sun breathing), and his ancestor passed that on for generations after Yorichi was long dead, only to have it be the deciding factor that saved the world someday later.

Being the most powerful special swordsman in all of the world didn't matter as much as one nice act to some random people in his old house in the grand scheme of this story.

>>283190207
That's not Denji.

>>283192333
>Mary Sue is a term that only applies to fanfiction
That hasn't been true in over a decade.

>>283192289
Wow, your post managed to be even more gay woke.
Alright, so in your head ki blasts really mean "you should destroy the environment". congrats, you win

>>283192311
And how did their parents get rich in the first place?
Being in the right place at the right time?

>>283192106
>ever since what Goku said to Vegeta about hard work surpassing the elite
Which is a load of crap, because Goku was always retardedly overpowered compared to anything around him. Which was frankly the point, when Dragonball was a comedy.

>>283192132
Rize was a super special ghoul, but yeah being a ghoul did not make Kaneki's life any better and if given the choice he absolutely would have stayed a human

>>283192398
The whole point of the original "Mary Sue" character was that she was a parody of such characters in Star Trek fanfiction

>>283192333
mary sue is a character i don't like

>>283192297
Yes. People are not equal and the superior deserve to rule over the inferior (albeit with dignity towards, humility and for the welfare of the latter). You set people up for failure when they think they can be better than they really are. This is why everyone is going to college and ending up underemployed or with a useless degree because standards were lowered to the point any pursuit of excellence and sophistication was destroyed at the altar of the false idol of equality and inclusion. I literally know people who wasted years of their lives pursuing field they had no hope in succeeding because of Jewish lies when they could have just settled for a moderately well paying trade job.

>>283183059
>>283183067
>>283189407
His dog is still alive, just now he can telepathically speak with him too.
Thanks to the speshul protagonist devil he’s not only the strongest guy and devil in all the world, he humiliates and emasculates people who worked their whole lives to be devil hunters, has friends, has money, has an education, has a girlfriend, has hordes of girl simps after his cock, has a whole religion founded to worshipping him, and no longer has to suck yakuza cocks like he did before. About the only downside is that he befriended Power then saw Power die and was sad for about a day.

>>283192453
Right, it came to describe that type of character in fiction overall because it fit it so well. It did this and entered the normal lexicon almost 15 years ago.

We know how it started, but like fuck it sure didn't stop

>>283181391 (OP)
>Luffy
-Is not a reincarnation of a god, because gods don't exist in this setting
-being the son of Dragon is completely irrelevant to anything about him
-D doesn't denote anything, given that Ace died accomplishing absolutely nothing.
-He's not the second coming of anything

>>283192461
Society deserves to collapse for not living up to the ideals it preaches

>>283192404
Yeah basically.

>>283192503
Yeah and he also got beheaded by Buggy before he could actually start his voyage.

>>283192416
He was still a lowly peasant defeating the royal blood of his race. Vegeta also gets outpaced to this day even after both training with Whis.

Gear 5 is fun and so were the reactions

>>283192503
Notice you're trying to dodge that he has a legendary devil fruit that was destined to only be eaten by him. Like actual destiny because he's the second coming of joyboy, as repeatedly declared by everyone. Like, everyone. Fucking Imu is calling him that.

>>283192540
But also he has a daddy with a powerlevel of 10,000 (as string as Vegeta’s dad) who can also go Super Saiyan

>>283192582
And look how well his brother turned out with those same genetics.

>>283192620
His brother also needed to be handed le zenkai boosts and le “you hurt muh fwens!” super saiyan mode and le God Ki saiyan prophecy to do that

>>283192511
Your ideals were false to begin with and nothing but a tool of the Jews to tear down the old hierarchies to climb to the top and then create their own new hierarchy.

Also, I give Goku more slack in general because it really does show how he would be nowhere near what he's become without his teachers.

>>283192703
Goku barely studied under Roshi before Roshi could barely compete with him

>genetics and bloodline are super important and decide everything!
>except countless young master villains who got demolished by mc in 5+ chapters

Here's the type of protagonist you want OP.

>>283187310
I love his loser lifestyle.

>>283181391 (OP)
God this image is fucking shit
Luffy isn't the reincarnation of anything, he just has the fruit of a mythical being, no different than Sengoku having one
Ichigo's points are underselling his bullshit bloodlines
Naruto isn't the reincarnation of "an ancient being", he's the reincarnation of the son of an important guy. Not even the reincarnation of the important guy himself.
Tanjiro isn't descended from anyone important, the important guy simply was friends with his ancestor.

>>283181391 (OP)
Tanjiro is actually the reincarnation of Yoriichi’s unborn child. He’s strong, but nowhere near as strong as Yoriichi. Tokito was much closer to his direct reincarnation in blood and spirit, seeing as he was both younger and stronger than Tanjiro, more like Yoriichi was when he was a child. Nothing Tanjiro has done he could have done alone.

>>283192461
It's not about being another good goy slaving away or keeping the system going by keeping the cattle from asking questions by dangling keys of luxury, it's about perseverance and trying to overcome an obstacle until succeeding, a mindset that could very easily push a puppet above their master eventually.

>>283181391 (OP)
Asta's devil is shit tier among other devils, tho

>>283191959
Blame Zeref, if anything Erza is worse

>>283181413
People seethed at this but he isn't wrong, Saiyans as a race aren't that crazy. Pre-Namek, Vegeta was considered the strongest in modern history and he was equal to fucking Cui and vastly outmatched by other members of Frieza's army. The Saiyans are only feared because of ambush tactics where they would invade a planet during a full moon and steam roll them with a squad of Great Apes before natives could compose themselves or come up with countermeasures.

>>283181391 (OP)
Trying to say Gon is some special lineage because he's Ging's son is a massive reach. He isn't bestowed any super powers by being his son and got where he did through his own efforts. Killua and Kurapika are more special than he is

>>283181391 (OP)
What a fucking imbecilic and nonsensical gripe. How about you go ahead and create a battle shonen and TRY to make your stupid idea of the MC being a random retard who has no help or ancestry of any kind related to the setting and see how far that takes you. The reason this is so prevalent is because it's nearly impossible to make that concept work convincingly and not SEVERELY limit your storytelling capabilities. But of course, you're an eternal lifelong consumer who bitches and moans and has never even tried to understand why the tropes he's autistically mad about (which only serve to remind him of what a LOSER he is, who will die alone and having achieved nothing) are as such. You and everyone complaining about this are mad and sad that you never amounted to anything but you can only channel that bitterness and anger to fictional characters.

>think of a manga
>wait it's seinen
>think of another manga
>wait it's also seinen
Welp, you got me.

>>283192582
Episode of Bardock is not canon, stop repeating this retarded shit. Might as well consider Neko Majin Z canon too

>>283193698
It is canon. Super isn't canon. Kill yourself. Anything past after Majin Buu or, at most, GT is not canon.

>>283192461
It's not about being another good goy slaving away or keeping the system going by keeping the cattle from asking questions by dangling keys of luxury/"join us up here on everyone else's bodies that couldn't", it's about perseverance and trying to overcome an obstacle until succeeding, a mindset that could even push a puppet above their master if that next hurdle becomes them. That message is pure self improvement.

>>283193388
So what? It's way more important to teach them to respect the environment. That's what we need; eco-friendly shonen. How eco-friendly is your favorite shonen?

>>283192659
>>>/pol/

>>283193677
What if it's soft seinen?

>>283193842
Not that friendly. Goku always insists on fighting away from civilization and fucking up nature instead. Mountains still have life.

>>283190098
...and then a few years later that organization that are mostly IRL-human level suddenly has a hidden stash of cyborgs who are stronger than than the planet-buster Freeza. Because "level-scaling" and all that.

>>283193335
Naruto isn't even a reincarnation. Asura transmigrated to him. Just like Obito possesses Kakashi during the narrative. Naruto wasn't born as Asura, Asura came to inhabit his body at some indeterminate point in his life. It is never stated properly, but it does appear that Indra and Asura made Sasuke and Naruto more powerful in some indiscernible manner. But they were chosen because they reminded the sons of SO6P of themselves.

>>283193666
The protagonists being "special" adds nothing to the story in most cases. At best, it makes no difference, at worst, it completely undermines the story's themes and message.

>>283190098
Goku was 14.

>>283182583
Why the Nika bullshit absolutely ruins Luffy for me.

>>283182295
No, but only because of his dad founding the village

>>283193366
He's not that either. Did you get your facts from tiktok?

>>283194668
No, I made it up.

>>283181391 (OP)
It's not exactly a problem on its own though.
The problem is when it's thrown in after half the story had been showing the protagonist as an "underdog" who is portrayed as this talentless loser at the beginning who overcomes his inferiority via extreme hard work against undeserving geniuses who just take their talent for granted, become arrogant about it and don't fully develop it.

>>283194225
You're flat-out wrong. Take that out from most of the series in the OP and the story simply cannot function. It's series-breaking. It's not indifferent. You are fucking stupid.

Can a NOT "chosen one" protagonist become the strongest in the verse without asspulls?

>>283192738
This. He mastered the kamehameha after seeing it done ONCE.

>>283192825
Because they weren't REALLY important. It only applies to rich people and other connections that matter to the story. So really it's just "only the plot matters"

>>283195031
Goku's first Kamehameha was only strong enough to damage a car. Not destroy it, just damage it.

The Kamehameha isn't a complex technique. It took Roshi 50 years because he invented it from scratch, but it's easy to copy.

>>283195031
Didn't Tien also do it after seeing it like once.

>>283194923
Yes.

>>283181413
>>283181496
You seem to be forgetting that Frieza destroyed planet Vegeta because he was afraid of the Saiyans
The Saiyans were always special

>>283195260
The story was really inconsistent on whether Frieza was afraid of one really powerful Saiyan emerging (a Super Saiyan), or the entire race banding together to overthrow him (strength in numbers).

>>283195187
Tenshinhan is also considered a prodigy, so basically fucking nobody in Dragon Ball isn't special.

>>283195346
>Episode of Bardock had Chilled warn his descendants about Saiyans with gold hair
after he travels back in time and causes a fucking paradox
>exactly how Frieza actually dies
Hilarious when you think about it.

light yagami thinks he's the chosen one but is just a stupid bum

>>283181391 (OP)
Lucy is intended to be the co-protagonist of Fairy Tail. Natsu does have to solve a few of the fights because she starts out weak, not chosen one and no sudden power-ups. Natsu still don't get all the big moments either. Lucy is regular from start to finish and scaled up gradually to being powerful.

koyomi araragi did become a vampire, but then he became human again. and is kinda just a regular dude with a top tier harem

>>283195649
Fake harem. Never fucking anyone besides his actual girlfriend with shit hair.

>>283195346
Either way Super Saiyan is a textbook chosen one plot and surprise Goku happens to be the chosen one.
And really with the plot of DBZ in mind DB Goku becomes even more special as you realize nothing on Earth was ever remotely a threat to him. He was literally a kid playing with his food.

>>283195443
What about Yamaha.?

Whats a good battle shonen to watch if i'm a zoomie who's only ever watched/read Baki, JoJos, MHA, Mob Psycho 10, Dorohedoro and Dandadan

>>283195704
>Mob Psycho 10,
100

>>283195698
I feel like there's a reason Yamcha always lived in the desert that was never expanded upon. Imagine the shitposting if Toriyama literally gave him a fursona power up right before dying.

>>283195649
He didn't just become a Vampire. He's soul-linked with one of the strongest entities in the series.

>>283190251
>same board that calls Goku a bad father for making training and fighting his number 1 priority in life is now also saying Dragon Ball always spat on training
Kill every hard work faggot.

Good part of OP's chart is either incomplete or just wrong.

>>283182239
Having the greatest hero of all time gift you his power, despite clearly not being apt to take it, much less handle it, then unlocking 7 new powers out of nowhere (and again, without any peculiar effort to make it happen). And to top it all, being gifted a suit that ¡Oh! Coincidentally, replicates all of his old powers. Again, not because of his own efforts or being worthy of it, he had already given up on being a hero.

Doug Funny could have done a better hero; at least he isn't drooling for his bully's dick.

>>283181391 (OP)
I really liked how YYH flipped it around to a story about Yusuke being just as annoyed by the reveal as the reader.

>>283181391 (OP)
all of them.
being a chosen one doesn't ruin anything

>>283181391 (OP)
We've been over this.
>But the endgame progression!
Was much like the rest of Koichi getting over the hurdles he had set for him mentally.

>>283196410
Soiboy Koichi is the same as Deku, he just keeps asspulling more and more new powers every single fight until the end when they reveal he actually has Flight like Celebrity which is one of the strongest powers ever comparable to One for All.
And they use the worst ever excuse for it too "I always had all these powers but I just didn't remember because MOMMY HIT ME WAAAHHH"

The only training he EVER does is running away from badguys so knuckleduster can ambush them and punch them. The second he ever has to fight someone himself he btfoes them with powers he never trained at all with.
No physical training. No confronting his mom just random asspull reasons why he gets handed new powers. Spoiled soiboy loser with the best power ever.

>>283196291
It does when the "chosen one" shit gets shoehorned in at the halfway point or the end

>>283196537
>Dude literally realizes his Quirk is far more versatile than the box he was taught to put it into and learns to expand on it
>Asspull

Koichi got where he is by emulating Celebrity and Knuckle, that's character development.

>>283196732
“Emulating them” by doing no inventive fighting with it, just being handed and granted entirely new quirks every time with zero effort?

Nah, that’s just a spoiled loser born with the best quirk and too stupid to bother using it that way until he finally bothers to.

>dood i know i said i have only the power to slide on things but now i remembered that mommy hit me so I’m gonna btfo you with my new powers of flight, superstrength, invincible forcefields, building-destroying laserbeams from my hands and spider-sense
>i never trained with any of these but that doesn’t matter i can btfo you all with them first try cause mommy heckin hit me and I have a better quirk than you
By the end Koichi must have been handed more quirks than Deku

Koichi's story is moreso about how the rigid structure of the hero society makes it so that a lot of people will never reach their full potential. Hr's a wholesome version of Shiggy while his Antagonist is a subversion of Deku from MHA og(a superhero autist with literally no personality of his own.)

In terms of raw shonenbrain yeah there were asspulls, but the story isn't very one-dimensionally about hard work beating talent so it drops certain elements for the end of the series climax.

All in all Koichi to me is still a far better realized character than Deku.

Vigs won precisely because when its brought up people actually discuss the story/themes.

MHA soured the fandom(at least on 4chin) to the point all discussion is meant with shitposting and mockery

>>283196773
NTA but the whole point of the story is that a guy with a quirk that can barely go the speed of a bike evolves itself through just being put through the trial by fire constantly just like a guy who spends a lot of time training and exercising, the story calls him completely ordinary
the implication being that people aren't able to defend themselves because the government won't allow them to get strong enough to do it on their own

>>283197351
>>283197415
you okay?

>>283196968
There's nothing the quirk does that's actually functionally different from what it's doing when we first see it, he literally just gets better at using it but this upsets autists who're surprised someone who can accelerate off any contact point can accelerate off of anything that touches his body (including air)
plus he never breaks any of the mechanics of the story, in fact the main manga introduced stuff that'd let weaker characters massively grow in power to fit their power escalation bullshit, while Vigs just used it to complete the theme of the story

>>283193555
Saiyan genes is the reason Goku got to where he's at, Vegeta too. That's why Saiyans are conveniently the only race in the world of DB with a transformation strong enough to fight back ancient demons like Majin Buu. Even if Goku was a shitter by his race's standards, that still makes him far above 99.9% of Earth and the universe at large seeing as how most races are weak except for a few anomalies now and then. He also still has a lot of room to improve with the whole Saiyans not having a ceiling gimmick.

Tien Shin Han literally puts in more effort than anyone who isn't named Goku and Vegeta and he will never ever catch up with them. Why? Because he's not a Saiyan.

An ancient godly transformation exclusive to the Saiyans found on a Namekian tome for some reason (SSJ God) and a wise old man pulling their unlimited potential out of them (happens twice to Gohan). Anything that lets a character catch up cheaply has a lot more relevancy than training. I mostly talk about zenkai and rage boosts, which are just excuses to make their numbers bigger so they can keep up with the next big bad.

>>283195260
>The Saiyans were always special
Kefla says it even on Super, and the way she says that line is so infuriating it's hilarious.
>"Hooray for being born a Saiyan!"

Why? Ordinary people don't accomplish anything worth telling stories about. It's just like in real life.

>>283198060
I don't mind special MCs, and I also believe ordinary people are boring to tell stories about, but if you're gonna write a power fantasy then at least be upfront about it and stop pretending there was any delusions about starting from the bottom. Post-timeskip One Piece is a shitshow right now, but I respect Oda for not pretending Luffy isn't special.

>>283197689
he doesn't train to get new powers from training though, he just remembers he has a new power when it's convenient for him. The explanation is that his mommy hit him so he just FORGOT, not that society stops him. He was literally flying from birth then she hit him and he stopped.

>>283198247
The first time he uses said power he pflorps across the distance of 30 centimeters. Then he trains and learns to leap across buildings.

Must genuinely suck to have autism.

>>283190098
>duuuh but dey stronga dan erf wtf
In the grand scheme, monkey, learn how to read.

>>283198297
You're an idiot and I'm obviously a better or just less prone to lie reader than you. He's been naturally flying since he was a baby.
He just le forgot and every fight scene conveniently remembers he has a new power that he masters first time with zero training. The only training he ever does is running away so Knuckleduster can jump in and punch someone. His quirk was broken from birth, he just has a lazy writer's excuse to get more OP with zero effort.

>>283182827
People respect Lee so much is because he kicked the shit out of Sasuke's smug emo ass not because hes hard work made incarnate. It was catharsis fetish that made made fans project on to characters like Nardo and Lee because they too want to beat up Sasuke. Kishi truly made a shonen where being a ace rival is more irredeemable than being a villain

>>283198337
In the grand scheme his daddy had the same powerlevel as Vegeta's daddy and could go Super Saiyan.

what if Mineta randomly went "durr I JUST REMEMBERED I have the same quirk as One for All! I didn't remember it because my daddy slapped me once but now I can go 100% Full Cowling without being creative or training"

That's what Koichi is.

>>283181391 (OP)
Almost none of these were regular people by the end of chapter/episode 1? They almost all had something to them

>>283190690
>>283190694
I feel like these cases are outliers because the MC being special is superfluous to his actual goals.

>>283181391 (OP)
>>283183435
>literally the only one who can solve the millennium puzzle and spirit channel the pharaoh who is basically a form of god
>the pharaoh is probably his ancestor too.

>>283198617
Priest resonates with me because his “chosen one” status is a straight-up curse that has made his life Hell. Because of his powers, he’s abused, raped, eaten alive, etc. without anything good happening to him.
It’s kinda the inverse of characters like Luffy who are “blessed” because of the special circumstances that let them achieve their dreams

>>283192770
Doesn't exist

>>283198060
Fiction isn't supposed to be like real life, that's the point

>>283181391 (OP)
>>>ancestor
>""implied reincarnation""
people have started making stuff up just to slander tanjiro kek, imagine if they reincarnated madara and some guy went "nuh uh you have to learn everything from the beginning "
>One that just remains a regular person from start to finish.
i can name 8, 9 arguably

>>283181391 (OP)
I believe that probability of Kenshiro being Ryuuken's sperm is very low

>>283192857
Best Korea > Worse Korea

>>283181391 (OP)
some of the listed ones there are plsin wrong or ard just retarded stretches

>>283181391 (OP)
Since when were you under the impression that this sort of background ruins anything?

>>283181391 (OP)
One punch man

>>283200548
When the story contradicts what it said earlier

>>283199336
yes he does. And he beat Sasuke's ass till Sasuke cried like a bitch.

>>283195228
He's Yujiro's son so he's also from a special bloodline

>>283200664
Is a seinen, not shonen

>>283190251
>Dragon Ball and especially the Saiyans have always SPAT on the idea of training and working hard from day 1.
Goku's story is that he was the weakest, most worthless child among those in his race, that he was sent to a pitiful planet like Earth because he would have the best chances of surviving there, and he ends up training and becoming stronger than the person who wiped out his entire race with a finger.
It IS about training. Goku simply holds a different mentality to everyone else.
Kuririn and Yamucha both have lives.
Roshi is retired.
Tenshinhan and Chaozu train in the ways of monks and do not train the way Goku does. This is literally addressed after the Piccolo Daimao arc, while Goku was constantly out exploring and discovering new things, finding new masters, finding new ways to grow, everyone else is just stuck in place.

And the thing that disproves the idea that Saiyajins ruin the idea of training are the Saiyajins themselves.
Raditz and Nappa are jobbers. They have a lot of power but no real control over it, just constant overwhelming force.
Vegeta does learn to adopt Earth methods and abilities, but he still tries to cheat. Zenkai is a meme in DB, but the Namek arc makes a point of showing Goku incidentally receiving that while training and Vegeta cheating his way into receiving it, and while Vegeta is left broken after a complete failure, Goku pulls out a win on Freeza (until Freeza is revealed to be alive, of course).

And at the end of the series, Vegeta is no longer a fighter either. He moved on, because Goku's disposition is not a Saiyajin thing, it is a Goku thing, and who does Goku see as the most worthy rival right now? Oob. A regular human that possesses the reincarnated soul (And nothing else, not reading Toyo's fanfiction) of Boo.

>>283200702
Sasuke didn't cry, he was thrilled some weird loser challenged him like that. Back when Narushit actually had potential.

>>283200668
What shortcuts did Naruto take?

>>283200703
That's not the source of his strenght in the slightest. In fact, his entire arc in Maxim Tournament is about that.
Baki is a child born of love, and so he willingly follows in his fathers footsteps. Jack's origin is much more tragic, and he aims to suceed regardless of it.

Baki is strong BECAUSE he is a Hanma, whereas Jack strives towards strenght IN SPITE of it.

Edward's dad also had like half the souls of Alchemy Ancient Egypt when he nutted in his mom

>>283200782
clones

>>283200895
>turned a handicap into an advantage
Try again.

>>283181391 (OP)
Why are people so obsessed with this and the whole "hard work beats talent" theme

>>283200934
Uniquely American disposition

>>283183158
>gain strength by growing as a person
this is still the best shonen power system, fuck nenfags

>>283181391 (OP)
Ranma 1/2

>>283182602
If his father wasn't an ancient philosopher stone immortal then Ed would never had access to books that teach him to do something as taboo and secretive as human transmutation, he lost his arm and leg but he gained tons of knowledge and the ability to cast without circles, without those two things then he would had been killed early in the story

>>283200668
Taking no shortcuts means that Naruto had to properly mature and earn the respect of everyone around him rather than being entitled to it. It's not about power levels. And once again, his lineage does not change the fact that Naruto earned his powers >>283183474.

>>283197916
>Tien Shin Han literally puts in more effort than anyone who isn't named Goku and Vegeta and he will never ever catch up with them.
This meme is dumb, bald nigga vocally refused to jump in the Time Chamber because he's a bitch and a half

>>283201156
Fuck off, retard. Now you're just reaching for an excuse.

>>283200915
>handicap
clones were never a handicap, in fact those types of clones were SHIT unless you were naruto

>>283190677
>also they forget the "human body can't handle multiple quirks at once without life shortening" excuse when they give Deku 8+ quirks
Because that wasn't the issue you made that shit up. Mirio would have never been able to handle OFA by nature of him having a quirk. The 4th user died young.

>>283190373
>Every other hero in MHA has to train for their entire lives to use their gifts.
Did they all have the same training regime or are you just talking out your ass?
>Mirio
Was literally groomed to be another All Might by Sir Nighteye his former sidekick
The rest we never actually show training
>Shoto
Had a terrible childhood. So are you saying now all children had the exact same experiences as Shoto

The rest is just you spouting horseshit as always

>>283196176
>>283190373
>>283190279
>>283190532
>>283190677
>>283191276
Why do people who always try to make these rebuttals never actually read the manga?

>>283181391 (OP)
I see no reason why this is bad other than hatred of great and the idea that said greatness can be passed down in some manner.

Kenshin is literally just a dude. Oh, he had a good teacher, big whoop.

>>283201367
Isn't medaka like a main characters thingy? And i don't mean it outside of fiction. I mean that the actual in-universe recognizes medaka as someone special with in-universe plot armor.
Don't really know because i never read the manga, but i'm 80% sure Medaka is anything but a normal girl.

>>283181391 (OP)
Great people make great children.
Losers make gay OPs.

>>283201369
His handicap was being ONLY able to make those clones and being really shit at pretty much all other jutsu.

>>283201488
>world building
>that gets destroyed by the constant nonstop unrestrained powercreep slop
How?

>>283182362
>against certain Masters like Illya
>implying shirou would shoot a loli

>>283182574
That doesn't help him win any fights though.

>>283201525
Greatness comes from who you are, not who you're related to.

>>283190677
>they forget the "human body can't handle multiple quirks at once without life shortening" excuse when they give Deku 8+ quirks
they literally explained that OFA users have a shorter lifespan because of it. the second user died of "old age" at 40.

>>283200934
Children in the west are socially conditioned into it because of the holocaust

>>283182295
Senku only has good memory, he's a literal son of a whore.

>>283201636
Some dumb military organisation of humans that Goku destroyed when he was a toddler somehow creating androids that could individually destroy the entire galaxy (remember freeza supposedly conquered it whole)
Adult professional Saijan warriors being logarithmically inferior in power level than Gohan as a child
Etc etc

Not a battle shonen, but in LoGH Reinhard had to be given some prominent dead noble's surname because he came from a nobody noble family. And Yang was just a random 200 iq history nerd.

>>283201529
See >>283188196

>>283181413
Goku is literally space Jesus bro

>>283201853
>Some dumb military organisation of humans that Goku destroyed when he was a toddler somehow creating androids that could individually destroy the entire galaxy (remember freeza supposedly conquered it whole)
That's something backed up by existing worldbuilding.
Earth technology was far more advanced than space technology in everything that wasn't inter-stellar travel, and Earth scientists were able to dramatically improve on space travel with some borrowed tech in just a few weeks. The best showcase of this is how the only option for healing that Freeza's forces had was a giant vat that couldn't be moved and took hours to work in spite of their supposedly advanced technology, and while Earth already had competent cybernetics (including a full artificial human in #8 and Tao Pai Pai's sophisticated cyborg modifications that saved his broken body), Freeza could only be "restored" through a clear patchwork job.
Gero, similar to Brief when making Goku's spaceship for Namek, was working with a power goal, and his only goal for years was developing artificial humans of various types.
>Adult professional Saijan warriors being logarithmically inferior in power level than Gohan as a child
Gohan was a mutt and from the very moment he shows an explosion of power, Nappa and Vegeta begin theorizing that this might have to do with the crossbreeding of Saiyajins and humans.

You have only posted examples th

>>283201912
He really isn't

Kenichi this is last panel of manga

>>283201912
People view him that way but he isnt.

>>283197916
>Tien Shin Han literally puts in more effort than anyone who isn't named Goku and Vegeta and he will never ever catch up with them
This is pure headcanon.
We NEVER see what kind of training Tien even does. For all you know Tien's "training" is some light exercise. He never uses the gravity room, he never used the time chamber, nothing.

>>283197916
>>283203688
Tenshinhan never exists his comfort zone with his training. That's the idea.
His training is never much more than what he has always done, that's why his two big techniques he gains are iterative- the first is an improvement on his multiple limbs technique, and then later he improves on the kikoho.
Goku, on the other hand, continually tries new things. He goes to Kami and trains for three years and complete changes how he views training with weighted clothes, goes to Kaio and advances further with gravity training which he employs on his trip to Namek, and that builds himself up well enough for attempting the Room of Spirit and Time in the Cell arc.
Goku is someone who ALWAYS seeks out and thrives in new training. Meanwhile, look at Vegeta, who stagnated with gravity training and the Room of Spirit and Time, and especially look at Tenshinhan. That has always been the idea- this is where Goku alone thrives.

>>283200890
Ed's not schizo, so he clearly didn't inherit that.

>>283201156
Ed definitely had a leg up, but it's not anything much crazier than most alchemists in the story.

>>283182047
Because "muh hard work over talent."

>>283181391 (OP)
Edward Elric shouldn't be on the list. His father isn't the reason he has his abilities. Ed studied alchemy on his own and he got no stat boost from his father's genes. He even gives up his power at the end of the series to be regular.

>>283182047
When you start the series claiming that your protagonist is a hardworking underdog, then go "jk they were actually genetically gifted or destined to succeed the whole time", it undermines the story you previously built up

>>283204163
To what degree does it count? Naruto got no stat boosts from his father's genes either yet everyone acts like being the son of a hokage counts for something other than being chosen as the fox host.

>>283204241
Naruto has huge chakra reserves because of his mom being from the Uzumaki clan.

>>283204285
No, it's actually stated that comes from the way his dad designed the seal; he designed it so that some of the Nine-Tailed Fox's chakra would leak out and merge with Naruto's, becoming his own. So Naruto's been getting extra chakra from the fox his entire life.

It's got nothing to do with being an Uzumaki, he didn't inherit any of the traits they were known for.

>>283204213
That only makes sense if they don’t bother training or trying and still succeed.
>a hardworking underdog
And
>genetically gifted / destined
Are not mutually exclusive.
Every protag trains and sacrifices for gains and earns their reward.
You “dishonesty” fags are so annoying.

>>283183041
>saint seiya is shit

>>283204357
No, he definitely got his mom's durability. It's the reason he and his momma didn't immediately die after having Kurama ripped out of them. All the other jinchuriki instantly died after losing their tailed beast.