Thread 283738545

This is proof that solid animation doesn't matter for shit if you don't have something compelling or interesting as a story. I know it's sacrilege to talk bad about Daima because it's "Toriyama's last gift," but if the guy was still alive, people would see how mediocre this is. He was just mad that Sandland flopped, and translated those ideas over to Dragon Ball, figuring they'd sell there.

Note: This is NOT a general. I wanna talk about this as a normal ass anime. I don't need the schizophrenia.

>>283738545 (OP)
>Let's make GT 2.0 but somehow even more boring and let's fuck with the canon even more too
Literally what was Toei thinking here?

I enjoyed it though. It was fun.

>>283738624
Toriyama wanted

>Battle of Gods (Toriyama's classic message 'no matter how good you think you're at something, there'll always be someone who's better than you')
>Resurrection F
>U6
>Zamasu
>Tournament of Power (Toriyama's classic message 'no matter how good you think you're at something, there'll always be someone who's better than you')

Akio Iyoku wanted

>Future Trunks
>Kale (Female Broly)
>Broly (Akio Iyoku helped Toriyama write the story, it's confirmed that Akio Iyoku brought him the Broly script and Toriyama just hastily put it together with his own old DB Minus content)
>Super Hero
>Daima (GT 30th Anniversary) was Akio's idea

>>283738624
I like how it just plainly contradicts Super without an attempt to rationalize it. I'm not saying Super is a masterpiece (god no), but they didn't even set up the idea that this is officially an alternate universe. They just had blatant things happen that wouldn't make sense in any of their previous Z continuations. The whole production of the show wasn't even "lazy." The animation was overall well done. The writing just went pure "fuck it," mode.

>>283738545 (OP)
>I know it's sacrilege to talk bad about Daima because it's "Toriyama's last gift,"
Since when? Nobody respects Daima, rightfully so.

>>283738773
>Since when? Nobody respects Daima, rightfully so.

It's more like literally nobody cares about this GT 30th anniversary special show that nobody wanted

>>283738785
It doesn't even feel like it would appeal directly to GT fans. If you wanted to make them excited, do a specific GT special, or series. "Hey, we cribbed some elements from GT, while reusing ideas from Sandland. Please praise us because we gave our animators a functional work schedule for the first time."

Daima pissed me off at a conceptual level. It failed at the very core. Say, you couldn't pair Goku with a more boring group. Why? It was a low-stakes adventure, anybody could have gone. God damn. It sickened me the moment I heard that normalfag-ass theme song.

>>283738801
>I like how it just plainly contradicts Super without an attempt to rationalize it. I'm not saying Super is a masterpiece (god no), but they didn't even set up the idea that this is officially an alternate universe

According to Nakatsuru, they told Toriyama

>This is another AU
>They wanted Goku to be a kid again
>Super Saiyan 4 has to appear

What we know about Toriyama's involvement in Daima from the BD release

>Toriyama didn't just write a rough draft like he did in Super, he wrote detailed instructions for every episode
>Toriyama designed almost every character in the series. Everyone except SS4 Goku.
>Toriyama wrote lots of dialogue for every episode. He wrote every gag in the series.
>Toriyama came up with Duu's "n'cha!" catchphrase.
>Toriyama wrote musical notes on Neva's dialogue to explain how he talks
>Toriyama came up with the idea of the demon realm having a convenience store to make it feel more like our world

Torishima said, "Daima nanka kuso anime" in Japanese. So yeah, he literally called Daima shit and right in front of Iyoku and Nakatsuru's faces.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7DaeJ3TFMFM

>>283738878
Torishima saying that is so fucking wild to me. It'd be considered bad form even in the west, but in Japan where shit is uber polite? I don't disagree with him, though.

>>283738728
this Akio sounds pretty fucking based

>>283738545 (OP)
the comedy was on point but the pacing ruined it by adding unnecesary fights.

>>283738801
>GT fans
what fans? the only positive thing GT is remembered for was SSJ4

>>283738945
Well that's the problem. It's a bad idea to make a GT "anniversary" series in the first place.

>>283738878
>>283738914
Torishima's job has always been to be a harsh critic. That's what editors are supposed to do. It's the 2nd reason Toriyama and others haven't worked with him on dragon ball since the original manga. Torishima is only looking out for how dragon ball can be used to extract numbers and DBZ money.

>its a little gag adventure
>It has fun setpieces
>It has fun and interesting side characters
>the plot is servicable
>the fights are great
>It expands on the worldbuilding in Z
Imagine not enjoying Daima

Toyotaro together with Toriyama's longtime assistant, Takashi Matsuyama

Toriyama was asked to stop including Lunch

>>283738545 (OP)
Toriyama wished he could just write vignettes like he did for a bunch of one off manga. Doesn't really fit a high budget/time/effort seasonal tv series but can't blame a guy for trying.

What are your hopes for January's announcement?

>>283738844
DAIMA WONDERLAND~

>>283739159
God I hope it's not a remake. We don't need that shit.

>>283738545 (OP)
I feel like the reason why it is only 20 episodes is because Toriyama died while it was being made. But yeah, GT was honestly better than this.

>>283739401
Why are you lying like this?

>>283739236
I'm pretty sure these are flashbacks not a remake

Classic DB peaked several times

>22nd Budokai
>Piccolo Daimao
>23rd Budokai
>Raditz to Namek
>Gohan vs Cell
>Kid Buu finale

GT peaked with Bebi

Super peaked with Jiren

>>283738624
>Let's make GT 2.0 but somehow even more boring and let's fuck with the canon even more too
LMAO you're being dishonest if you actually believe this. Nothing interesting happens in GT. Every arc is wasted and feels like they're building up to something but always ends with an underwhelming payoff because it's all concept and no delivery, no satisfaction. There's a reason why when people talk about the greatest moments of the DB franchise, NO ONE ever mentions GT outside of maybe Goku going SS4. You know why? because the storylines are the worst in the franchise and by comparison to Daima which is takes a more lighthearted approach, still somehow has a less compelling story which is insane. How does the more serious show with larger stakes fail that much harder than something that is ultimately an action comedy? People will always talk about how cool they think Baby is or Omega Shenron is but they NEVER talk about how terrible those arcs actually are and only ever mention the trivial shit that never correlates to the actual quality of the show itself. A contrarian fanboy will always either talk about liking the design of a villain or the concept of a story but never argue why it inevitably failed and is overwhelming hated. You know why NOBODY ever talks about the fights in GT? It's because EVERY fight in GT is boring, has shit animation, and ultimately doesn't try to do anything even remotely interesting to appeal to the viewers who just want to see some kickass action.

I'll prove it right now by posting some examples. You'll notice very quickly the differences between all of them, starting with a standard fight in the OGDB.

>>283739653
Now let's move on to a standard fight in Z. I'll go with Frieza since it tends to be one of the more popular ones. Notice how the action is on a grander scale compared to the more traditional martial arts based action from the OG. Animation is still consistent and entertaining to watch. Shouldn't really have to say much because everyone loves Z the most but trust me.. it's gonna get crazy.

>>283739457
Omega Shenron vs SS4 Gogeta was a better peak than Baby, if you only care about the hype fights in GT.

>>283739678
Okay now for my main point that I wanted to get across when it comes to action and animation in the franchise which is the main appeal of Dragon Ball itself. Stories have always been just okay but the reason why it's the most famous anime franchise of all time is because of the fights... now we're at GT. I've chosen to not just post any fight to prove my point, I've chosen the FINAL fight of the entire series because you would expect it to be the most epic with most time, thought, and budget being put into it because it's suppose to be the big payoff.. NONE of these things were the case. Not only did we not get a great final fight with the main villain of the series, but it's arguably one of the worst fights in the franchise. No one has ever said "aw man that fight with Omega Shenron was so epic" because it clearly wasn't. The animation is horrible, there's no moment of cool back and forth combat sequences. They do nothing interesting. They don't even make an attempt, so when I see retards like the anon I was originally responding to say that Daima of all things was a more boring GT, that's just objectively wrong and intellectually dishonest. I will continue to expand upon this.

>>283739749
Thanks for taking the time to put down this stupid talk. I couldn't be bothered.

>>283739749
Now let's move on to Super which is often criticized for it's art style justifiably, but in terms of animation, it is pretty consistent across the board and unlike GT for example, it delivers when it comes to fights almost always which is the most important thing as stated earlier. Not sure what clip I wanted to use for this so I went with the Zamasu fight just to show the contrast in quality between this and the FINAL fight of GT which was embarrassing by comparison.

>>283739776
Finally we've come to the conclusion. Dragon Ball Daima. Simple, comedic, straightforward.. oh and also some of the best fights in the ENTIRE franchise. It did exactly everything it needed to do. It's literally everything people wanted GT to be. It balances the tone of OGDB and Z better than GT, and most importantly, they actually gave a fuck about entertaining it's core audience by showcasing the ONE thing every DB viewer wants to see which is high quality action from start to finish. GT cannot compete which I already know most people overwhelmingly agree with, but it's fun sometimes to really emphasize this to random anons who don't know any better. Does Daima compare to Z or even OGDB? No. Is it more comparable to let's say Super? Sure. I'd argue it's a step above Super especially when it comes to art, animation, and just telling an overall story that's both digestible and satisfactory with less bulk whereas Super has multiple arcs that feel like they don't need to exist at all. I guess what I'm trying to say is everything in the franchise is either good or great...except GT which is almost irredeemable and indefensible in practically every single way compared to everything else in the franchise EXCEPT the music and some cool villain designs. That's it. That's all it has. It's a lolcow series. It's fun to make fun of because of how bad it is. That's how it's always been perceived and how it will always be.

>>283739653
>>283739678
>>283739749
>>283739776
>>283739859
Nah, Daima still sucks.

>>283739859
>Super has multiple arcs that feel like they don't need to exist at all

Examples?

>>283739885
I'll even go one step further to show you just how much better Daima is to watch than GT though. Here's a prime example of SS4 Gogeta during the most "hype" moments of the series delivering an "epic" attack on Omega Shenron... and it's shit. 19 seconds of horrible animation. You watch 60+ episodes of an anime and this is the best they have to offer.
>>283739888
stuff like the return of Frieza seemed unnecessary and the tournament prior to the TOP just felt like filler to me.

>>283739942
Meanwhile a show like Daima which is only 20 episodes gives us so much more in less time. Just look at the final fight between SS4 Goku and Gomah.

>>283739961
I'm not defending GT, but good animation can't save a lack of a strong emotional connection to what's going on. So many people only judge the quality of an anime off how fluid it is, and how nice it looks, but fuck. Daima's just boring. No one is invested in Clown Jiren.

>>283738545 (OP)
>This is NOT a general. I wanna talk about this as a normal ass anime. I don't need the schizophrenia.
Based. Though /dbs/ schizophrenia is still hard to evade, it even permeates to other boards.

I'd say the worst part by far is the beginning. The first four or five episodes are ROUGH. You could get away with that kind of pacing in the 90s or even 00s, where everyone was chill, but now there are so many shows and things grabbing your attention that it's hard to watch a show that feels directionless.

>>283739993
>No one is invested in Clown Jiren.
You don't need to invest that hard in him because he's a gag villain in a limited series that's meant to be nothing more than an anniversary project. It's not some next evolution of the epic story of Dragon Ball, it's a fun prequel that emphasizes comedy, adventure, and action. The villain is not comparable to the likes of Frieza or Cell. He's a buffed Pilaf. You're suppose to be entertained by the idea of an OP goofball doing dastardly things, not feel the weight of the destruction of everything at the hands of the most evil entity in the franchise. You already know going into the series it's not high stakes and is meant to be lighthearted and silly. It's not that hard to comprehend and once you accept this, it's easier to enjoy.

>>283740030
>I'd say the worst part by far is the beginning. The first four or five episodes are ROUGH.

You forgot that the first 27 episodes of Super were ROUGH

>>283740030
>but now there are so many shows and things grabbing your attention that it's hard to watch a show that feels directionless.
modern anime is legitimately terrible.

>>283739942
>stuff like the return of Frieza seemed unnecessary

Crazy how many times they brought back Freeza

>Mecha Freeza
>Cooler's Revenge
>Goku fighting Freeza in hell in filler
>Fusion Reborn
>Resurrection F
>Black Freeza

Z movies were supervised by Toriyama and he designed most of the movie characters

>Toriyama-sensei drew all the enemy characters, such as Coola and Neiz, up to and including a height-comparison chart. They even came with colors, so there was no need to change them. There would be no point in changing them. (laughs) It made it a breeze being the one making them, so I was grateful.

>The enemies this time were all Toriyama-sensei’s designs. I was amazed every time at the abundance of characters Sensei could pull out of thin air.

— Minoru Maeda

The absolute GOAT

>>283740095
Yeah but it's just not that good. Like, I'm sorry, I know Toriyama spent the last 20+ years of his life trying to convince people, "hey, you don't want that dumb action stuff, right? It's kind of cringe. Really stupid and meatheaded. I've got some great comedy here you can check out! Before Dragon Ball, I was even known for it! Dr. Slump!" But no. Toriyama refused to understand he unique all peoples and all cultures through the world with ATATATATATA and beam spam. He could have brought world peace if he wanted.

>>283740114
Daima isn't much better it's definitely lower quality than other shonens being released now like JJK and Demon Slayer and I don't hold either of those in high esteem.

>>283740125
Yeah, because he is like the central villain of the series. He is the in-universe reason why the series even happened in the first place.

>>283740114
It's funny when people don't realize they're living through a golden age. When and if anime ever becomes unpopular, old fans are going to look at having 40+ anime airing in a 12 week span as mind-blowing. If you can't find something you'd like each season, then I don't know what to say.

>>283740174
>It's funny when people don't realize they're living through a golden age.
Congratulations. You just made an argument for recency bias and not why something fundamentally superior. You're basically saying
>look at all the anime that's being made! All the bias teenagers that will grow up with this slop are going to prefer it to the next generation of slop
Literally every generation is like this but the only difference is the animation industry already peaked decades ago and we're on the decline and now those who are uneducated and ignorant don't know any better so they just accept it

>>283740312
>but the only difference is the animation industry already peaked decades ago and we're on the decline

QRD?

>>283740312
It's not bait. If you want to look at a dying, or outright dead animation industry, look at the west. Especially in the last few years. I'm not saying anime is perfect, and hell, we may reach a breaking point with the industry soon, but the amount of quality releases put out every year is staggering. Too many people wax poetic about a few select theatrical movies and OVAs, and act like everything used to be Akira. All while sperging out over CG effects.

>>283738545 (OP)
i liked sandland...

>>283739135
I'd be a lot more interested in an anthology collection of Toriyama shorts than morw DB desu

>>283740320
Are you unfamiliar of the animation renaissance of the late 80's going into the 90's and the inevitable decline during the dark of the late 2000's? Anime pretty much died and became corporate slop once shit like SAO and Isakei took over the industry. It's even worse in the west.
>>283740336
This is the difference between our viewpoints. You're glazing the current anime industry because of how objectively bad Western animation has gotten but it's not just animation that's gotten worse, it's entertainment in general. Japan is not effected by this cancer so by comparison it seems like a night and day difference. If we actually had a good entertainment industry including animation over here like we did 25+ years ago, anime wouldn't be as prevalent as it is now. It's only by the fact that everything has gotten so bad that we settle for mediocrity which is the current state of anime itself. There's just no other alternatives. if we had good products over here, more people would see just how hard anime has fallen even compared to like 20 years ago. You look at what comes out every season and it's dozens of literal dogshit and a few uninspired slop that gets a pass because they often have moments of solid animation and nothing else. Same character designs are copied and pasted across many different anime, Character personality types are copied and pasted across most of the people in these shows, storylines are often copied from other forms of entertainment. People who use to make anime were artists inspired by philosophy and taking elements from real life experiences to form their art. You don't have minds like Tezuka, Watanabe, Kon, and Otomo anymore. You have people now just making shit that's inspired by other shitty anime. Every battle shounen now is just extensions of previous shounens, every fantasy show trapped inside of a video game is inspired by all those other slop shows, slice of life's, comedies, everything.

>>283740458
>You look at what comes out every season and it's dozens of literal dogshit and a few uninspired slop that gets a pass because they often have moments of solid animation and nothing else.

I dunno man. I think you're cynical, and with some serious rose tinted glasses. I won't say I don't watch some degree of slop (I'm in a Dragon Ball thread. I watched Super), but every season, there's usually something interesting or compelling to me. This season alone, I can point to Toujima and Gnosia as some highlights.

You're also ignoring any degree of slop from the past. And there was plenty. I kind of feel like there's really no point in talking though, because I'm not going to convince you that things aren't perpetually awful in everything. That's just the general attitude of 4chan overall- and admittedly, a lot of things are bad right now. I don't think anime is particularly in the gutter, though.

>>283740336
>Too many people wax poetic about a few select theatrical movies and OVAs, and act like everything used to be Akira.
Dude we use to have shit like
Ashita no Joe
Legend of the Galactic Heroes
Lupin III
Dragon Ball
Urusei Yatsura
Space Adventure Cobra
Macross
Rurouni Kenshin
City Hunter
Gundam
Hokuto no Ken
and those are just the more notable ones off the top of my head. There's not a single anime that I've seen in decades that are comparable to the golden age of anime. Sure there are MORE anime made now but they're not even remotely better. I'm sorry but not gonna sit here and be delusional and act like stuff like One Punch Man, JJK, and Frieren are comparable to the best I've seen in my life.

>>283740532
>Space Adventure Cobra
based

>>283740458
>You look at what comes out every season and it's dozens of literal dogshit and a few uninspired slop that gets a pass because they often have moments of solid animation and nothing else
How is that different from any year? See this is why I hate these nostalgia arguments because they are always talking about a select number of great shows over the course of like 20 years while ignore the hundreds of anime between them. Like this post>>283740532

Unless you're really going to sit here and tell me that actually every single anime that came out in the past (cutting off at whatever arbitrary year you feel like) was great then I'll never take these kinds of things seriously.

>>283740532
Okay, whatever, dude. I mean I don't think Gundam '79 is that great. I watched it. Innovative. Important. But there's a reason it got trimmed int a couple movies. Loved Rurouni Kenshin as a kid, got so bloated with filler that it never finsihed properly. And as much as I love Dragon Ball (and I fucking LOVE Dragon Ball), the anime adaptation is far from perfect. Plenty of underwhelming episodes with bad animation cuts, and filler so notable, that Kai exists for a reason (Kai is a whole other can of worms, and no, I don't think that's perfect either). I'm just saying, I think you have some rose tinting going on.

>>283740579
>the anime adaptation is far from perfect. Plenty of underwhelming episodes with bad animation cuts, and filler so notable, that Kai exists for a reason (Kai is a whole other can of worms, and no, I don't think that's perfect either)

What don't you like about Toei's adaption?

>>283740588
I mean it was a weekly anime series that had to perpetually chug along for 10 years, with two anime movies a year, specials, and sometimes unique projects, like games, such as Plan to Eradicate the Saiyans. Toei's animation staff was spread thin, and some things did not have optimal direction.

Actually, I can get autistic about something real specific: I think the anime adaptation of Goku going super saiyan is genuinely REALLY bad. You should watch that episode, and take into consideration a lot of the music, and directional choices in it. I can fully unleash my autism on this, but it would probably kill the thread.

>>283740572
>How is that different from any year? See this is why I hate these nostalgia arguments
Dude it's not a nostalgia argument. I'm not some 50 year old Japanese man basing his entire argument off of some idealistic view of my childhood and looking at it through some rose tinted lens. Most of the shit I admire are things I've gone back and watched as an adult. That's what I base my argument off of. Yes every era of anime has plenty of bad anime and yes they all have their drawbacks but the core of my argument is that anime was consistently better overall once upon a time. Animation was more consistent and higher quality overall, people took bigger risks, had more variety and in many cases took a deeper approach to telling a story with more complex themes compared to now where EVERYTHING is put out for mass appeal to maximize profits. It's sanitized to the extreme and that's why it's worse. Anime is no longer being made by visionaries, it's being made by people who just watch a bunch of shitty anime and go "I wanna do that".

>>283740617
>I think the anime adaptation of Goku going super saiyan is genuinely REALLY bad.

How? It's the most iconic moment in the series

>>283740688
Plenty of modern anime do shit like that HxH '99 cut. Just the same, or similar people to you go and say it's "forced animation," or find some other critique or nitpick.

>>283740715
It's bad. Let me paraphrase something I've said before.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D10a7UBy-L8

Watch this scene. The transformation itself lacks impact. Like, the music cue choice I think is horrible. Genuinely. Like, I'm going to be a little hyper focused here, but you land on THIS shot, and don't have the music entirely tailored to it? It's just a sustained chord leading into the visual, with some plucky 70s guitar noodling in the background? I'm not even shitting on Kikuchi, cause he can do amazing work, but this was not an originally scored scene, when it absolutely should have been.

Then you follow the most important anime transformation ever, with a filler shot of frog Captain Ginyu. The director of that episode did not know what they had, or the gravitas and importance of this moment. Which is insane, because Toei KNEW Super Saiyan itself was gonna be a money bag. The Lord Slug movie was an attempt to cash in on it before Super Saiyan even appeared in the manga.

>>283740715
>How? It's the most iconic moment in the series
lol It's quite literally the most iconic moment in the history of anime

>>283740759
>lol It's quite literally the most iconic moment in the history of anime

Post the most iconic Dragon Ball moments

>>283740688
>Animation was more consistent and higher quality overall
This is how I know for a fact you're nostalgia blinded because anybody who has watched an excess of older anime knows damn well that isn't true, even for the classics, unless you're talking about OVAs

>>283740759
Yeah, and I think Toei fucked it up. PLENTY of anime after this, even Dragon Ball Z itself learned how to master the badass transformation sequence. SS2 Gohan is practically Toei apologizing. Corrects everything I said up here >>283740741, including having an original music track.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SyMeAo9kgsY

>they were already showing off the Cooler movie before Goku even defeated Freeza

What happened here?

>>283740741
>Plenty of modern anime do shit like that HxH '99 cut.
That's not even the argument I'm making. It has nothing to do with anything really. Also it doesn't matter that there are modern anime that "can" do what HxH 99 did, the problem I find from your approach is the fact that modern HxH SPECIFICALLY does not do what HxH 99 did and went out of their way to make it worse artistically. It's the same with Dragon Ball, it's the same with Kenshin, and Ranma, and Urusei Yatsura. Modern anime takes old things and makes them OBJECTIVELY worse and new anime suffers because of this level of laziness because the industry is shit. How can I expect them to create new things that are good when they ruin old things ALL THE TIME?

The majority of Dragon Ball Z was shot on 16mm film compared to the more standard 35mm. However, there were a few episodes of Z (episodes 73 to 80) shot on 35mm film.

>>283740808
>Ranma

Try watching past the first season of the original Ranma anime, and tell me it has consistently strong animation and direction. I warn you. You're gonna fucking hate Happosai so goddamn much. And the animator talent that gets sapped after they realized this wasn't gonna be UY 2.0? Woo boy.

>>283740767
>This is how I know for a fact you're nostalgia blinded because anybody who has watched an excess of older anime knows damn well that isn't true, even for the classics, unless you're talking about OVAs
See this is how I know you don't shit about animation because it was consistently higher quality back then. The technology is better now and because of that you can do things much easier than you could back in the day but there was way more fluidity in the animation. Nowadays, you watch a slice of life comedy or whatever and all the characters in the show are as stiff as a board. Only in specific scenes do they showcase any sort of good animation and when they do they usually go all in which is good but for those moments where nothing is happening on screen, it's the worst animation imaginable. You don't get that with like Sailor Moon for example where even when characters are standing around talking, it's cartoonish with tons of movement and wacky expressions and everything. They used their budgets more moderately and put in the time to add life to the show throughout the entire runtime whereas now it's only reserved for big specific moments. Just to name one example, click on any episode of the 80's Urusei Yatsura series and compare it to the remake. The newer animation is soulless and characters barely move at all compared to how zany and animated the 80's one was.

I can post TONS of examples. I know my shit.

>>283740884
I don't get how anyone can look at that Kenshin scene and try to tell me animation has gotten better. These are literally 25+ years apart LOL

>>283740884
Time for me to post a comparison I always find fun.

>>283738545 (OP)
Imagine if instead of doing this dogshit they adapted Moro in those 20 episodes. With Sparking Zero's release + Toriyama's death boosts it would have been the biggest anime of the year by far. Do the people running this franchise just hate money?

>>283740939
>>283740952
Try comparing UBW movie and UBW anime

>>283741073
That scene isn't in the movie (like a lot of things aren't in the movie). Directly comparing a theatrical release to a television one is pretty unfair, but I've got a few I can show, maybe.

It's only widely approved because people are depraved of DB content nowadays, even if it fucks up the entire timeline of events for super ..

>>283739859
Based and true

>>283738624
How did releasing another non canon installment alongside the previous non canon material like Super and GT affect the canon (the original manga)?

>>283741140
Nobody cares about super so I nobody cares that Daima which is much more entertaining messes with it's timeline

>>283741649
>Nobody cares about super
Anon I hate to say this, but for a significant amount of fans these days, Super is the only animated material they have actually watched in full. Like do you really think people sat down and have watched 'all' of DB, Z or even Kai? Think realistically now.

>>283738545 (OP)
Nothing new
toei has been a complete disaster these recent years
like what happened to saint seeiya, sailor moon crystal, digimon tri adventure, not even the fucking goku returns ova was good
modern toei its just a souless company

>>283741775
I know I have seen the entirety of Kai several times. It's not hard to watch. I watched GT three times and Super in full once.

>>283740532
By far the best Lupin season is Part V though, a modern show.

>>283740532
back then there was a lot of directors inspired by dezaki who could create animes that looked good and had good direction, even if the animation where static cels. nowadats it feels souless that 99,9% of modern anime has the ssame modern anime style with terrible storyboard

>>283741775
They're not white though so I exclude them.

>>283741808
>Skipping the mandatory prequel
>Watching the optional sequel

>>283738545 (OP)
That animation was ok. Modern One Piece animation still get all the talent and budget.

>>283742011
I saw the OG anime as an adult and I've read the manga in it's entirety. Both times I didn't enjoy it as much as the "z" portion of the story. King piccolo and the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai are the only worthwhile parts. Pilaf is boring as shit as is the RRA arc.

Anyone white knows that DB and Z are the only DB material that's canon and Super is just a spinoff that is a notch better than GT. Personally I couldn't finish Super because of how stupid and derivitive it is compared to Z. In Z you feel like you're watching the characters life unfold, Super feels like a big post-credit scene where nothing too dramatic can happen or anything can change because we're past the good ending and good fortune is just set in stone. Everyone is friends forever, everyone is happy forever. There is no reason to write or watch something like this, it's antithetical to anything that can be called a "story"

>>283738545 (OP)
Felt like they had a lot of story and moments to cover in such a short run, maybe they'll do a better adaptation at some point who knows

>>283742109
I thought the OG was better. More adventures in less episodes therefore more fun. More interesting power ups, characters, villains, locations, romantic adventure atmosphere.

>>283738731
>I like how it just plainly contradicts Super without an attempt to rationalize it.
Super is a disgrace to the franchise that deserves to be shat on at every opportunity. GT, Daima, and Heroes are canon, Super is fanfiction.

>>283738545 (OP)
You just need cool fights.

I'll always find it hilarious how the only parts of Daima that get talked about are the "Z/Super" parts of it. And of course, canonicity arguments.

I'll always say it, SENILEyama dying is the best thing that could ever have happened to Daima.

>>283738728
>Battle of Gods
Toriyama joined mid-production.
>U6
>Zamasu
>Tournament of Power
Napkin notes

>>283740688
>is that anime was consistently better overall once upon a time
You are posting the worst example for that.
Hunter x Hunter (1999) is loaded with jank and ugly looking episodes with subpar animation. Its second episode, literally the SECOND EPISODE, has every character being off model a majority of the time and most of the scenes being literal slideshows.
By contrast, 2011 is very consistent. It can maintain its general aesthetic and none of the characters ever go off model, all while providing great animation at times that call for it, rather than being wholly dependent on when certain staff are available.

>>283740808
This is another innately flawed example.
Dragon Ball Z, at that time, was a production that had been consistently going since 1981, as it started with Dr. Slump. A lot of of the staff there had been working consistently for YEARS, and even a lot of the new staff by this point were Saint Seiya alumni.
Dragon Ball Super had an infamously rushed production due to broadcasters pushing for a new DB TV anime for Summer 2015. That's why its first two arcs are recaps, they don't need new backgrounds or new character designs or anything for a year, because they didn't have the time to do that.

Additionally, you are posting DBZ right around the time it DID go to complete shit for a FULL YEAR. That scene is a singular exception, go look at the Freeza fight and you will see some atrocious shit.

>>283740416
They did it for fujimoto so maybe there's hope, I don't think Sand Land did all that well though

>>283740416
>>283742922
They're not doing a Toriyama one shot/short manga collection.
For a start, most of the best ones already got adapted, those being Sand Land and Ackman. Beyong that, Kennosuke-sama and Pink already got adapted, and Wonder Island got folded into a couple of the Dr. Slump materials.
Beyond that, the only pretty good ones are Neko Majin, Jaco, and Cowa, and two of those are Dragon Ball works.

The other issue is just that most of them aren't good. The aforementioned Wonder Island ranked at the bottom of all the one shots it competed against for a reason.
If I had to rank them, only a couple would be worth adapting, and all of them would only be about five minutes long.
>ADAPTABLE
Cashman (one of the only ones that would really work)
Chobit (only significantly lengthy one, but it's multiple episodes, not one story)
Mad Matic
Dub & Peter 1
Pola & Roid
Tomato
The Dragon Ball prototypes (but you'd need to 'invent' endings for them, since they don't have endings)
Mr. Ho
>UNADAPTABLE
Little Mamejiro
The Elder (it's just a car chase)
Escape
Highlight Island
Wonder Island 1 & 2

>>283743161
An adaptation of the whole galactic patrol series would be great. It could definitely be done in 12 episodes or less

>>283738981
>is
He has no attachment now. These are clearly his actual thoughts.

>>283738728
>Super Hero
Imagine pretending this isn't the most Toriyama controlled project on this list.

>>283745556
If that were the case then Gohan wouldn't have existed in the movie.
SH suffers from the same issue every single Super-era production suffers from: Iyoku's shoehorned nostalgiapandering and Toriyama not giving a shit and him going "sure, whatever" and doing the bare minimum about that.

Goku is my hero

>>283745718
>>283738728
Rare poster that genuinely thinks DBS and Fukkatsu no F are good, but Broly and Super Hero are bad.

>>283738545 (OP)
I enjoyed the first half, second half less so
Couldn't get into the Gomah fight because I wasn't invested emotionally but the animation was pretty good
Overall Daima was ok. I think the Super movies were better and further solidfied the idea that I believe Dragon Ball works amazing as movies but not as an anime series anymore

>>283747198
I fucking despise F and wholeheartedly believe it is the root of practically every single issue modern Dragon Ball suffers from.

>The beginning of TARDku (self-explanatory)
>The beginning of lazy recolor rehash transformations with next to no context or explanation (Blue, Golden)
>The beginning of ridiculous and inconsistent powerscaling (Freeza 4 months of training making him God-tier making God-ki become worthless instantly and then the fucking laser and them having no fucking idea if God still exists or if Super Saiyan still exists or if Saiyan Beyond God is even a thing and so on)
>The beginning of cheap nostalgiapandering for the sake of marketing and clapbait (Freeza's returning)
And others I'm likely forgetting about right now.

it was pretty bad but so was super at least it was only 20 episodes i don't like nu-dragon ball i only like dbz i don't even like the original dragon ball i like gt kinda but yeah dragon ball was never really that good that's what it means to grow up it's over bros.

>>283738545 (OP)
Daima failed because people want more Super and Super already fails in the writing department.

>>283738545 (OP)
Toriyama was creatively bankrupt after Z, and completely forgot what worked about it. The editors also helped enormously. The show was incredibly tense, and every major arc had crazy stakes and buildup. The moment he had more creative control with Buu (after admitting the Cell Saga was too hard on him), he became lazy.

By the end of his life his designs were weak, his stories were boring, his humor was unfunny and he had nothing left to offer minus Dragon Quest concept art.

It goes to show that stress can pull out the best from a creative mind. Evangelion vs Rebuild is similar, but even then - Rebuild at least has some character to it, unlike any post DBZ Toriyama work.

All of it was worth it just for seeing this live

>>283739236
No, we definitely need a better anime adaptation.

original anime is goated i'd like to see a manga adaptation

>>283748358
like an anime adaptation of the manga. the manga doesn't butcher the characters like the rebuilds fuck the rebuilds

>>283738545 (OP)
People were shitting on Daima from day one. Most people who were defending it were adobenchaafags who said it was amazing because it was taking the franchise ''back to its roots'' & called us fake fans for not getting excited over it. They also said it was Toriyama's true vision for the franchise, completely ignoring the fact that this wasn't Toriyama's idea in the first place, he just took over the project because he got sick of them coming to him for approval.

>>283740741
Watch it with the kino music
https://youtu.be/_qNmE0xQgfI?si=1Nc35M3_5TRvMQvH

>>283745521
back when he was editor, he expressed his thoughts for real as well. it wasn't a job where he had to be restrained about critiquing work. nowadays he uses his publishing company as a position to talk down general trends in the manga industry.

If you hate Daima, you've never read or watched the original DB. Adventure is the true heart of the franchise, not endless bullshit fights like what the series turned into later on. Prove me wrong.

>>283748659
Except the adventure has to be fun. GT got it right, Daima didn't.
Goku, Bulma, Yamcha, Puar and Oolong? That's a fun, balanced comedic bunch.
Goku, Pan, Giru and Trunks? Fun bunch.
What does Daima have? Kaioshin-sama the absolute most fun and entertaining lad in the whole galaxy

>>283748261
>his humor was unfunny
No that was still good.

>>283748659
Daima was literally nothing but bullshit fights with nameless characters. SSJ4 made SSB look like an well thought necessary form.

>>283748659
Adventure just doesn't work in modern DB
Goku is just too absurdly strong for adventures to be fun, you also have to come up with tons repetitive excuses (cough cough ship malfunctioning or getting stolen cough cough) to explain why the adventure doesn't end in 5 minutes

>>283748809
Its funny how theres literally zero reason for Shin to come along. He does fucking nothing for the whole thing and him being the brother of 2 of the villains never even matters. What the fuck was the point? Does anybody care about Shin?

>>283748994
He's there so that he can give a completely unnecessary infodump of Glint lore in one episode

>>283738773
You couldn't talk poorly about it outside of the dragon ball general when it just came out

Goku becoming weaker by the wish could be fun if they actually commited to it, but both GT and Daima FAILED misserably because Goku is still too powerful as a kid

>GT specifically states that Goku's power hasn't decreased at all, he's just got less stamina so he can't fight at full power for a long time
>Daima doesn't make it clear that Goku's become weaker until he returns to being an adult since every episode before that he effortlessly defeats everyone without ever needing to go past SS1

>>283748986
It's not because of Goku mainly, it's because not one writer can make a good scenario. Iyoku was hyping up the stupid giant planet gimmick as if it was interesting or creative in the slightest.
Even now when they finally do a genuine attempt at worldbuilding for the first time since Freeza, it goes nowhere with every environment still being palette swap wastelands and new characters all being irrelevant cardboard cutouts.

It's especially ridiculous that old Toei filler in DB and early Z does a better job. Goku meeting young Roshi and getting training from Mutaito, and Gohan fending for himself alone on a deserted island are a hell of a lot more interesting than some copy paste minotaur repeating the same "I thought they were weak but they're actually scary!" shtick Toriyama has spammed for his entire career.

>>283739859
>>some of the best fights in the ENTIRE franchise
>no stakes
>no memorable moments
>shitty character designs

I don't care about "sakuga" or wathever

>>283749299
The sakuga was like peak ToP tier at best, I really don't see this "amazing animation" people are getting out of this series

>>283748659
>adventue
>adventure
>ADVENTURE ADVENTURE ADVENTURE

Was never the focus of the series.
The og dragon ball had 3 (THREE) tournament arcs almost back to back.
The only instances where adventuring is a thing are: the fist arc, some of the Red Ribbon army stuff, tho it's mostly just fights, and shitty boring filler.

Read the manga. It's nothing but fights. Toriyama hates drawing scenary too.

DB is about fights, PERIOD

>>283749421
>The sakuga was like peak ToP tier at best
Peak ToP is beam spam eye vomit. Peak Daima is actual choreography.

>>283749481
This still frame of SS4 is cooler than this whole fight

>>283749565
And that has nothing to do with animation.

>>283748659
Only 2/6 arcs of early Dragon Ball were adventure focused & even then the only part people remember about the Red Ribbon saga was the fight against Tao Pai Pai. Is it any wonder Toriyama decided to ditch this formula early on.