If was thinking for a while about how you could make more people interested in reading Marvel comics. People want to know the story of the most iconic pop culture figures of our time, but the 60+ years of multiple titles in a shared universe just feels like homework and then insanity. It pales in comparison to the 'just start at chapter 1 bro' that the manga industry has over the western superhero genre.
Its not any fun reading bios and wikis, and reboots like the ultimate universe (as good as it is some of the time) aren't the original stories that fans want to read about.
Here are some autistic ideas:

>>149210598 (OP)
Just make it like my hero academia, with spidey as the MC. Stop the ms marvel push, no one likes her. I don't even like my hero academia but it's very popular with normies. Stop pushing socio-political agendas ahead of entertainment. Also add more light fanservice with the cute fan favorite waifus.

Make a reboot

>>149210598 (OP)
>If was thinking for a while about how you could make more people interested in reading Marvel comics.
Marvel Adventures was a good line for new people. A bit too kiddie but that was the point of it and it was still nice.
Ultimate Verse is a good idea just don't fuck it up like the first time they did it

Level 1 - Re-writing, re-inking and re-colouring the classics.

If you look at the classics, particularly the silver age, what has aged well and what hasen't .

The plot and the art has aged well, the writing, inking and colours haven't.

The colour and the inking is straightforward enough to imagine, all one has to do is look at the marvel graphic novel edition of tales of Asgard to see the improvement.

As for the writing, we are going to have to take a black-pill. Stan Lee was a hack and a fraud.
The silver age was terribly written. heaps of narrative text boxes, dozens of background characters with word balloons adding nothing to story, lines that bring up plot holes or directly clash and go against what's happening with the art.

This all makes the classics a slog to read through. Keep in mind Stan was paid more for every line he wrote. The whole thing comes across as bad western dub butchering an anime to appeal to a western market with cringey attempts at 'hip' dialogue, which it was, because that's how the self-proclaimed 'marvel- method' essentially worked.

The classics were good in spite of Lee, not because of Lee. But now wading through all of the inane fluff dialogue to read the story is just a miserable waste of time.
Honestly less is more and I convinced that the reading experience would be improved dramatically if at least 50% of Lee's dialogue was removed.
Don't believe me? Then be my guest and read through the Lee issus of the golden age. You will want to kill yourself next time you read stuff like 'and like a demon pissed...' or ' I ain't no whistlin' dixie'.

(Continued...)

>>149210863
Stop right there and kill yourself

>>149210598 (OP)
The autism is needing to know everything that's happening everywhere in the universe at all times. Back in the day you would just accept that something happened in another book that you didn't know about and move on, and if it interested you, you would check it out. The world doesn't revolve entirely around the one character or team you're reading about and that's fine.
You wanna start reading Marvel? Start at issue #1 of the character or team you care about and accept that sometimes things happen that you won't be told about in that book

(continued from>>149210863)

There are a couple of things Lee didn't like that marvel is now kind of famous for pioneering, morally grey characters as heroes as well as humanized villains.
That's why we have shit like 'The brotherhood of EVIL mutants'. Instead of a morally questionable set of antagonists fighting for their rights through terrorism. Lee thought that was too much for the little kiddies to grasp. It lowers that bar that Jack Kirby intended.

That's why Tony Stark had a squeaky clean boring personality, and nothing that people like Tony for. Hulk, Namor and villains like Bolivar trask been outliers because I'm convinced that Jack Kirby was twisting his arm.)

The other thing he hated was any instance of a female hero not been a pathetic jobber. I swear I'm not a feminist and I hate sjws, like most people. But you just have to look at how annoying, retarded and useless he made heroes like the invisible girl and Jean grey. Any time Jack wanted them to have their heroic moments the dialogue shows that reed and Xavier were ordering them to do it.

Now there is a danger that changing the dialogue be used as for censorship. There needs to be guidelines, regardless of offence, you only take out the line of it's badly written. if wolverine for example (not a Stan character I know) starts saying mildly offensive slurs, then that's part of his characterisation. If reed Richards romantically embraces Sue while saying 'now hush up, wives are supposed to be looked at, not listened to' then that's laugh out loud hilarious sexism that makes the story hard to take seriously.

To be fair Stan does have is good moments, the thing's dialogue is almost always great and the 'pussywillow' thing with aunt may is pretty endearing. As they say, don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

>>149210990
"Back in the day"
My point exactly.

>>149210598 (OP)
It may be that I just finished a really good one, but just make a bunch of high production value documentaries covering characters and teams throughout the years that cover all the major thematic and character arcs with some behind the scenes segments to cover what the creatives were doing.

>>149210598 (OP)
Make a story that's easy to read, no "there's been a reboot so the series you were following ends on a cliffhanger" no "to understand what's happening you have to read another superhero's comic or a crossover with ALL the heroes in the franchise"
Don't change authors during an arc, peak Rel is Spider-Man, it's getting ridiculous
Use assistants to write one chapter per week like manga

>>149210990
>accept that sometimes things happen that you won't be told about in that book
And that's why comics lose to manga.
If I want to read Dragon Ball, I take the first volume and read up to volume 42. The whole story as imagined by its creator is there, no need to read anything else.
If you want to read Spider-Man, there's:
Web of Spider-Man
Spectacular Spider-Man
Peter Parker: Spider-Man
Ultimate Spider-Man
Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Man
...
Not to mention the arcs with different names like Superior Spider-Man or the numbering changes mid-release.
people want to be able to read the hero's adventures in any order they want, without having to worry about finding a reading order, they want to take volume 1 and focus on the story
InB4 Dragon Ball Super

Level 2 - rewrite the dialogue and remove panels to make changes to the plot.

Some of the overall story has rough edges because of Stan's input.

Example 1:
Who crippled Xavier? Was it magneto?

No. It was a shitty supervillain that Stan created that no-one cares about.

Who was supposed to cripple him?

Juggernaut. Jack Kirby intended for Xavier's abusive step-brother to cripple him. It makes sense Cain Marko is a reference to the biblical story of Cain and Able. Throughout the story you see xaiver cower in fear against his brother and collapse into tears over the trauma his brother caused him.
That was Jack's plan, but there was a problem. Stan had already introduced Lucifer in a previous issue and said that he did the deed.

Lucifer seldom appears again, I say the juggernaut story should be altered so that Cain cripples Xavier and the Lucifer issues are just thrown away.

Example2:

The high point of the fantastic four run. The discovery and the liberation of the Inhumans and Galactus trilogy is the same story.

So basically what happens is, the ff and exiled Inhumans fight maximus the mad in the Inhuman sanctuary. They win but maximus activates a hidden machine to destroy the outside world. It didn't work. So maximus activates an impenetrable dome to forever separate the Inhumans from the outside world. The FF flying home and in the meantime the silver surfer scouts earth for Galactus to eat in the same issue.

Huh.

Wouldn't it flow better if the machine that maximus used to end the world was a beacon that attracted the silver surfer to earth and the dome was to ensure the sanctuary remained after Galactus had his way with earth.

I'm sure that's what Kirby intended, but Lee didn't get the memo.

I'm tired now, there will be more autistic ideas in the morning

>>149211140
Motherfucker just read Amazing Spider-Man. It's not hard, people are just lazy and retarded

>>149211265
Harry dies in spectacular Spider-Man, Peter loses the venom suit in web of Spider-Man, Jean dewolfe dies in spectacular. And kravens last hunt goes between all the issues

>>149211291
and Peter gets his black suit in secret wars

>>149211057
>That's why we have shit like 'The brotherhood of EVIL mutants'. Instead of a morally questionable set of antagonists fighting for their rights through terrorism. Lee thought that was too much for the little kiddies to grasp. It lowers that bar that Jack Kirby intended.
Anon, don't be a tard. 'Mutant rights' wasn't a thing in 1960s Marvel, and Jack Kirby himself intended Magneto to be Mutant Hitler, and the guy who single-handedly started conflict between mutant and human. The idea that there was anything morally ambiguous about him or his cause was made up by Claremont 20 years later. Whether it was Jack's idea or Stan's the actual interesting thing with the Brotherhood was two of the team being teens who should have been heroes, but had been forced into joining the group.

>>149211251
Kirby's own admission that he was just drawing his pages and not reading the finished, scripted comics, combined with the car crash scene in the Juggernaut origin issue do create an interesting theory that this was Jack's idea for where Xavier got crippled, but the same story has the later scenes of Xavier and Cain in the army, with Xavier not crippled.

And accusing Lucifer of being all Stan's fault because he didn't take off as a character, while Juggernaut is all Jack because he did take off, that's your own personal biases at work.

>I'm sure that's what Kirby intended, but Lee didn't get the memo.
You're probably underestimating just how much they were flying by the seat of their pants from one issue to the next and how little long-term plotting there was on comics back in those days.

>>149210863
I always thought retouching the art would be a good idea. Archie similarly updates their art every few years. It's a good way to refresh them for a new generation given kids won't care about purism.

>>149210598 (OP)
Aren't epic collections just that? I mean, I am pretty new to Marvel, but Epic collections are pretty fun and easy to get into.

>>149211889
Yeah it seems like he doesn’t know about epic collection or masterworks

>>149210598 (OP)

>>149212046
Is this from that "abortion horror" comic?

>>149210598 (OP)
I had a dream about this once. I became CEO of Marvel and went
>Ok whoever considers themselves a proud nerd raise your hand!
>Alright.
>Everyone who did is fired. Pack your shit and go.
>Also we are retconning every single Bendis comic and suing him.

>>149210639
>Just make it like my hero academia
What does that entail?

Just accept the reality that American superhero comics are a moribund niche. Nothing Marvel or DC will or can do will ever increase readership by any significant amount. At best you'll get some temporary bumps. So why bother at this point? Just embrace being a tiny insular little world that's utterly inscrutable and unappealing to outsiders.

>>149210990
>Start at issue #1 of the character or team you care about

Which #1? Almost every book has several by now. Answer assuming you are a normie with zero knowledge of comics or Marvel continuity.

>>149211889
>>149211987

Most normies wouldn't touch them. OP is asking how to attract normies.

>>149212046
Is this supposed to be a cautionary page about bad lettering?

>>149213681
>Which #1?
The oldest one. Marvel doesn't have any real reboots

>>149213734
>Answer assuming you are a normie with zero knowledge of comics or Marvel continuity.

Try again. You're using comics knowledge here.

>>149213760
The oldest one. I literally cannot make it any more simple than that. If you're asking
>Is the book from 2015 the oldest one?
You're probably too retarded for this

>>149210598 (OP)
>But manga

Shut up

>>149210598 (OP)
>TRANga
>TRANime
NO!

>>149213774
You seem a little dim, so I'll try again. OP is asking about attracting normies, so I'm asking you to get into the mindset of a normie who knows nothing at all about comics, not even " Marvel doesn't have any real reboots". They walk into a comics store and see a bunch of #1s. How do they know where to start? I'd wager the opposite is true, that a true normie would pick up the most recent one, assuming the older ones are out of date and don't count anymore, because why else would there be new #1s?

>>149213784
>>149213809

Manga mogs capeshit sales, that's just a fact.

>>149213936
You are not going to make comics sell better by just going “durrrr make it like manga”

>>149213923
>How do they know where to start?

By picking out whatever looks interesting to them. It’s stupid people like you who fucking keep making this difficult to everyone else by whining all the time how “difficult” it supposedly is when it’s not true.

>>149213923
>I'd wager the opposite is true, that a true normie would pick up the most recent one
This insane scenario is not what you presented. You asked "Which #1 should they start at" not "Which #1 should they start at, also they're at a comic store with limited stock and they won't pick up the oldest one because I said so".
New #1s indicate a new volume, typically with a new writer, they do not indicate a reboot. If you want to start from the beginning, start from the beginning. Your hypothetical stock limitation is irrelevant, Epic Collections exist and Marvel has a huge online catalogue of their popular older comics.

>>149213980
What normie is going to want to buy a single issue instead of just ordering a trade from amazon?

>>149213980
>New #1s indicate a new volume, typically with a new writer, they do not indicate a reboot.

Bzzz try again. Normies don't know that. You're really quite dim, aren't you?

>>149213978
>>149213980
You're thinking like comic people and not how a normal person would.

>>149213978
>the #1 biggest problem regular people have with figuring out how to get into comics going back decades
>apparently some kind of conspiracy

>>149214019
That's the problem with these threads. Certain comics readers literally can't comprehend someone not knowing what they know, which when it comes to comics is almost everybody. They really can't understand what a non-reader thinks or sees when they look at comics from the outside.

>>149214018
>>149214019
You think this is some gotcha but it's really not. You start at the beginning. This is true for everything, this is a common sense conclusion to reach. Your entire premise is based on the idea that someone who wants to get into comics would put zero thought into it, get confused immediately, then run away screaming.
>>149214011
Why would a normalfag do that when they can just use "Netflix but for comic books" aka Unlimited?

>>149214090
>You start at the beginning and there's a bunch of different #1s

>>149214090
>Why would a normalfag do that when they can just use "Netflix but for comic books" aka Unlimited?

Because a normal person wouldn’t have even heard of Unlimited and there are comics beyond Marvel, dumbass.

>>149214090
NTA but your expecting people to go back and read issue 1's from like the 50s and 60s.
They might know that comic characters are old but what's going to happen is that they will pick up the most readably available Issue 1, get confused by the continuity and drop it, or look up where to start see that is a comic from the 60s or the 80s or the 90s or the 2000s and go do something else.

The only way to solve this is honestly to enforce the "one book that starts at issue 1" rule for all new books, a gradual sunsetting of the major brands to stop the bloat from continuing, and then compiling those major brands into singular Omnibuses, none of >>149211140 Just Spider-Man Volume 1, Volume 2, ect with all of them in order.

>>149214019
Do you seriously think people would refuse to watch the new Bond movie before they’ve watched all previous 27 movies? Do people refuse to read Hercules Poirot books because they HAVE TO read them in chronological order and it’s too confusing to know which is which because there’s no numbers on the covers?

How do you think people back in the day watched or read anything, you dumb motherfucker? They just tried whatever they happened to come across and went from there. Kept up with new releases and went back for older ones if they wanted. This is not hard. People to this day do it naturally.

People like you are the problem. You have built an entire industry around whining and building the idea that it’s impossible to start reading comics. A goddamn child can pick up a random comic and if they like it, go read more if being allowed to do so. But somehow an adult with a smart phone and access to the internet, Wikipedia and google can’t because baaaawwww it’s tooooooo haaaaarrrdddd? Grow the fuck up.

>>149213923
>that a true normie would pick up the most recent one
No, anon, people will want to start at the BEGINNING, not at issue 456.
Don't forget, manga has been there, they're more popular than comics, and for manga, you read the chapters in order.

>>149212299
>>Ok whoever considers themselves a proud nerd raise your hand!
>>Alright.
>>Everyone who did is fired. Pack your shit and go.
if anything, comics can use more actual fans working on it,just not vindictive fanboys.
If you're going to give over these characters to TV writers and people who never collected comics, it's gonna all be shit. All the best comics have been made by people who grew up with and loved comics.

>>149214238
>Do you seriously think people would refuse to watch the new Bond movie before they’ve watched all previous 27 movies? Do people refuse to read Hercules Poirot books because they HAVE TO read them in chronological order and it’s too confusing to know which is which because there’s no numbers on the covers?

You mean like how people are refusing to see many Marvel films because they feel like they need to have watched Marvel shows on Disney+?

>>149214238
Its more a matter that people who grew up with the internet are to used to having everything spoon-fed to them.
When people talk about appealing to a larger crowd they are talking about getting the guy who spends all day on Tiktok and binging Netflix to go out of their way read a comics

>>149214238
>>149214264
Bond never made continuity and interconnectedness a major selling point.

>>149214248
>go to a store
>Hi I want to read the first Spider-man comic please
>Store employee points to a collection that has like 10-20 of the first issues of Spider-man

OH MY GAWD THIS IS TOO DIFFICULT FOR MY STUPID LITTLE MALE BRAIN

>>149214238
The world changed when easily accessible season/series box sets and especially streaming became a thing. When reading manga online became a thing. You have to accept this.
There are not many Hercules Poirot fans under 50, and James Bond, besides being a franchise with an aging audience, chose to do the unprecedented in the middle of the DVD era and abandoned all continuity for a reboot that had a definite finish.

>>149214276
Yes it did, there’s several movies that heavily rely on continuity when it comes to Bond’s grudge against Blofeld from the Moore/Connery era. Even Craig’s last Bond builds up on its continuity and expects (as much as any not direct story related sequel to the previous entry does) you to know some backstory like who Vesper was and what the deal with Spectre is.

>>149214284
And you can with two clicks buy practically any comic run’s first issues in an easy to find collection. You stupid fucking moron.

>stealth East vs West thread
Why are tranimefags so deranged? Their obssession with western cape GODmics isn't healthy.

>>149214156
>Because a normal person wouldn’t have even heard of Unlimited
And yet you expect them to know how trades and hardcover collections work?
>and there are comics beyond Marvel, dumbass.
This thread is about Marvel, faggot

>>149214305
Anon...Two clicks is one to many

>>149214343
Yes because people seem then at bookstores and online places like Amazon. They do not normally see individual single issues being sold as the first cursory research result.

>>149214305
if it's in print, that is(and many comic tpbs tend to go out of print quickly)

>>149214265
And there are not endless spoonfed social media accounts for them to use? Come on already. It’s absurd how at length people just go out of their way to make up imaginary problems.

>>149214378
>b-b-but what if it’s out of print!!!

There’s this thing called a library. And even if you insist that no people have ro buy everything they are regularly putting out new editions of original first runs so this notion that it’s impossible to find anything in print ever and people immediately give up and never come back or just buy a different volume if they can’t right away buy the number one collection is laughable.

>>149214404
Libraries don't have everything.

>>149214374
You can literally google "read marvel comics" and the first options are
>Marvel's website (which will tell you about Marvel Unlimited)
>Reddit posts about Marvel Unlimited
>RCO, because piracy is also easy as fuck
>Marvel Unlimited's website
That's a cursory search with zero effort put in. This is not hard.

>>149214411
Libraries can order stuff from other libraries, sweet summer child.

>>149214278
>First issues isn't the first issue, but rather the continuation of a series of over 400 issues+dozens of other comics+crossover.
>And after issue 32, it becomes issue 500.

>>149214456
Oh nooooop I guess I have to refuse to read and enjoy a comic because I can’t abide a mistake you can make by accident. I guess I am too dumb to read comics, woe is me

>>149214460
>>149214453
You really have no experience with anything outside of comics, huh

>>149214479
Then don’t fucking read comics. Stop being such a whiny cunt, it’s too difficult? Then shut up and fuck off. You are not going to magically fix how 60+ years old and still ongoing comics operate by endlessly whining and crying about it.

>>149214332
Only trannies buy modern comics. You've lost lol.

>>149214460
>Buy issue 1
>I don't understand anything because it's a spin-off of another comic
>Buy another issue 1
>I still don't understand anything because it's actually issue 153
>Buy another issue 1
>Instead of fighting supervillains, the hero gives me a lecture on LGBT rights.
>Give up and go read a manga that I can read from volume 1 and understand everything

>>149214533
>I don’t want to actually read comics and enjoy them, I want to whine about dumb inane shit

So fuck off already and just read manga.

>>149214503
>>149214556
Well maybe if you knew how people outside of comic readers thought, it would help

>>149214556
touch grass faggot

>>149214556
Anon the conceit of the thread is getting these kinds of people to read comics.

>>149214556
You sound like some fag on reddit telling you to do something other than what you are trying to do
>How do I make X ?
>WTF, why would anyone want to do X ? You should (and must) do Y instead

Just start at the start, it's really not that hard. You can invent these scenarios where someone theoretically starts somewhere that isn't the start all you want, but that's irrelevant to the point

>>149214784
No, the conceit of these thread is just to parrot the same stupid and inane talking points over and over, refuse to acknowledge any counter arguments in good faith and just chant MANGA MANGA MANGA MANGA like a chant. Because the people making these threads just want to whine and bitch. While showing every time they understand nothing about the industry and how it works.

>>149214569
People don’t want to read comics and you are not offering any solutions to that because you refuse to admit the actual facts and just obsess over something you have arbitrarily decided has to be the problem like a single digit dumbass.

>>149210598 (OP)
>normies Autism

Is that like "scientific stupidity?"

>>149214939
Yeah I'm sure the all the repetitive relaunches are pulling in lots and lots of new readers

>>149214951
Sure thing, negative-digit dumbass

>>149214960
They are doing relaunches because they draw up sales. The big two continuously keep trying to offer new readers way to read and come into comics and they keep failing because like you, they think there is an untapped market out there. But the truth is people have stopped caring about western comics because they just don’t care.

It’s entirely a cultural and perceptional issue about thinking comics are lame and going DUDE MANGA isn’t going to change that. If it did then things like Peach Momoko, Gurihiru, Superman eats japanese food etc. would dominate the sales charts. But they’re not. Because despite all the endless insistence the market doesn’t work like that.

>>149215045
i dont know
Deadpool manga sell like hot cake

>>149215119
>Well one titl-
But others aren’t manga titles aren’t. And Marvel has actual Japanese author working for them right now and it isn’t making their titles selling better despite bringing clear Japanese and manga influence to their comics. So it’s not as simple as that. And Deadpool is a meme character, so how long lasting are those sales going to be bedrock people get bored?

And what, do you think everyone should just outsource their publications to Japan then? You think that’s realistic? And what, they just do couple of volumes and then stop and not produce more? Do you not understand the fundamental problem with that?

>>149210598 (OP)
None of that matters
>1. Comic books are, despite the name, magazines. Magazines are a dead format.
>1b. Comics are collected into books. Books are not as dead as magazines but close enough. The only uptick in this industry of any kind is audiobooks, which by definition is the antipode to comics

>2. muh manga. Japan is the largest per capita publisher of all kinds, Japanese are the most avid readers on the planet, so the problems presented in 1 are minimized. Their industry has shifted to a digital netflixification of pushing out hordes of manga, which is exacerbated by the rise of it's sister industry anime, which produces record numbers of shows because the technology used in animation is easier to access than ever.

>3. Prices are exorbitant. With the rise of globalization they would do better to publish for free* digitally (with ads, merchandise etc)

>4. The demand for superhero comics does not match the supply, as shown by sales. Cancel more titles.

>5. DEI. Forced characters of various gender, sexuality, race etc are boring. They are made worse because they constantly try to make DEI versions of existing characters in an attempt to usurp or absorb popularity from a character people actually care about. In practice its not a bad idea to make characters of diverse lives and experiences but you do not get to jump ahead and pretend they are popular because business directives demand you tick those boxes. It has to work the old-fashioned way

>6. There is a market for non-capeshit comics. If they could offer authors and artists the right financial incentives they could be on the forefront on tons of new lucrative IPs. This is not even attempted by the big 2.

>7. Nobody is cultivated or given a chance to succeed. Everything is relaunched so nobody gets a chance to improve or turn things around. Its paradoxical to 4 but you need to give people a chance to learn from experience. You can only learn the fundamentals so far before you need actual XP.

>>149215761
>DEI. Forced characters of various gender, sexuality, race etc are boring.
But “forced white cis straight men” isn’t despite them flopping too?

>They are made worse because they constantly try to make DEI versions of existing characters in an attempt to usurp or absorb popularity from a character people actually care about.
They are made to be legacy characters because the market refuses to support original characters anymore and there is a clear issue with lack of diversity. What you’re spouting is typical racist white replacement conspiracy theory bullshit because you’re brainwashed.

>In practice its not a bad idea to make characters of diverse lives and experiences but you do not get to jump ahead and pretend they are popular because business directives demand you tick those boxes. It has to work the old-fashioned way

The old fashioned way doesn’t even work with white characters so your entire argument is stupid and illogical.

>6. There is a market for non-capeshit comics.
But the marker actively refuses to buy such comics from big two
>If they could offer authors and artists the right financial incentives they could be on the forefront on tons of new lucrative IPs.
Vertigo model doesn’t work anymore when people can just publish through Image. It outdated to talk about turning the clock back to 2000s when that was already showing signs that Vertigo couldn’t generate many popular titles.
>This is not even attempted by the big 2.
This is you showing complete lack of basic knowledge about big two’s publication history even from the past fifteen years.
>7. Nobody is cultivated or given a chance to succeed.
They are, but people like you then claim it’s a psyop where companies are “forcing” industry implant characters down your throat and any voiced support is just paid shills
>Everything is relaunched so nobody gets a chance to improve or turn things around.
Relaunching is the way anyone pays attention to titles anymore

>>149211367
Stan Lee admitted he was the one who named the group 'the brotherhood of EVIL mutants'. Then again this could be Stan lying.

And yes maybe my Kirby bias is showing, but my point is, of you were reading X-Men from the begging would it not be a better story if Lucifer was out of the picture and either juggernaut or magneto was the one that crippled Xavier.

Level 3- keep all of a character's or team's comics in one chronological run.

While the epic collections seem to do this, the don't really. You only see this been done with big omnibuses like mutant massacre, which has the UXM, XF, NM and other side series told in one chronological story.

Like-wise with spider-mans black suit saga Omni which put all of this >>149211102 into a single story.

It would be challenging yes, because I haven't figured out how to address crossover events but I'm sure it could be done in a clever way.

>>149215944
Xavier being crippled should just be a result of an accident, not caused by any type of supervillain attack. The mightiest mind on Earth loses the use of his legs because… he had a skiing accident, a car slid off the road, a random gunshot at a political rally hit him in the spine, etc.

>>149215885
All you are doing is missing the forest for the trees with your myopic retorts.
>People like you claim
You put words into people's mouths and call them bigots. Classic retardation.

>>149216037
Well are we at least in agreement it shouldn't be from Lucifer

>>149215885
>Vertigo model doesn’t work anymore when people can just publish through Image
Image would be murdered in half a year if DC or Marvel offered financial backing for your original stories. Cashflow is king. Vertigo was also a problem as it only provided to a certain niche and not a larger mass market initiative

Where did this idea that 'I have to start at the beginning and watch everything in a specific order' come from?
Back in the day, it wasn't weird to catch a series from like episode 5 or even in the middle of an episode. If previous information was needed you'd either get a 'previously on' segment or somebody would drop some exposition to explain. And that's not even getting into stuff like production vs release order or reruns fucking with episode orders.

>>149210598 (OP)
>Making Marvel comics more accessible to normies Autism
Why the fuck would you want to do that?

>>149210598 (OP)
I don't think the existing IP's can be salvaged
No matter how bold you make that "#1" appear, no matter how loudly you declare that the past is forgotten and this an entry point.
All anyone see's, when they look at Marvel comics, or DC comics, when they see names like Spider-Man or Batman or whatever... all they see, is an unfathomably large stack of comics going back almost a century.
It's completely impenetrable.

>>149216335
The Phase 1 Marvel movies succeeded because the vast majority of the audience wasn't even aware of the comics existence.
Most of the people who watched Ironman in 2008 didn't know who Ironman was, they didn't know that Marvel was a comics company, they had never read a comic.
This saved them from the baggage that comics brings.
Comics making new #1's should also target new audiences who are not even aware that older comics exist, however this is a futile effort since the moment you become aware of the existence of comics, you become aware of its vast history, it is extremely prominent.

>>149216361
Doctor Who is another series that capitalised on a new audience and deliberately shyed away from its past baggage.

Doctor Who began in the 1950's, it is a very old series with many many episodes. However it was cancelled at the end of the 1980's after a long and painful decline into irrelevancy.
This death however, served to the 2005's reboot's benefit. By being dead for several decades, many people forgot it even existed, many people were born having never heard of it.
And so, the people that tuned in to watch the 2005 reboot were new fans who were not even aware the old show existed. And the show was written with this mind, you are never once required to watch the old episodes to understand anything in the new episodes.

If they had simply picked up where they left off after the 1980's, it would have been a total flop

>>149216361
>The Phase 1 Marvel movies succeeded because the vast majority of the audience wasn't even aware of the comics existence.
>Most of the people who watched Ironman in 2008 didn't know who Ironman was, they didn't know that Marvel was a comics company, they had never read a comic.
>This saved them from the baggage that comics brings.
ur truly a retard if you think the average movie goer didnt know who iron man or captain america or hulk was when those movies first came out. how old are u, zoom zoom?

>>149216381
One Piece is often used as a comparisan when talking about long running comics.
However, despite its overall popularity... One Piece is not that popular.
It has steadily declined in popularity for a number of years and this is probably due to its excessive length.
You DO have to start One Piece at chapter 1 and it will be a very long time until you reach the end of it.
Very few people want to do that.
There are not many new One Piece readers, children are not talking about One Piece anymore, you do not see children cosplaying as its characters, you do however see them cosplaying as Chainsaw Man, a newer and significantly shorter series.

Excessive length is a detriment to any series, no matter how good it is.

>>149216407
But another reason why these legacy IP's should not be continued is that they're simply out-dated, and any attempts to modernise them are tenuous at best.

On the surface, the character designs are like something out of a Victorian Circus. They're almost 100 years old. They're ancient.
When James Cameron wrote Terminator, he didn't put Arnold in a gymnasts uniform, he put him in a biker jacket and sunglasses, because it was the 1980's and that was cool.
Superman was cool in the 1940's, it isn't cool in the 2020's

And the same can be said for every part of their being. Their personalities are wooden by todays writing standards, their morality is childish, their universe is shallow, their powers are unimaginative, and their origin stories are lackluster.
They just simply don't hold up today.

>>149216441
Those are the big issues that stand at the front door so to say. There's no point in focussing on the smaller issues while these still exist.
We simply need to just make new comics. It is pathetic to continue to suck on the dying corpse of these outdated relics.

But to speak of the smaller issues:
The biggest of these is the corruption. The wokeness, the politics, whatever you want to call it. Where ever it rears its head, whether it be comics or movies or videogames, where there is this cancer, it is pure poision to any and all sales. I don't care if you personally like the politics, if you do, you are an irrelevant minority of people and should fuck off. The majority of the population want nothing to do with it.

>>149216172
If you go and make one part of your post just about whining about DEI and mix it with white replacement bullshit then yeah, safe to say you’re a bigot to a degree at least.

>>149216467
Second to this, is the non-political corruption.

Many comics are drawn and written by people wholly unsuited to be working in comics, they have no talent and everything they produce is shit. They got the job through nepotism and favours. And they will continue to produce garbage no matter how poorly it sells because they are buddies with the upper management.

Furthermore, these people are extremely childish and instigate drama amongst eachother constantly. They will deliberately sabotage another creator over personal spite. Many comics have been ruined because of this.

Nothing good can be created in such a cesspit.

>>149216188
Why would Marvel pay top dollar for something they can’t totally own and why would anyone with a brain take a deal like that when it means corporate side gets dibs for everything and will try to fuck you over as you can’t actually control your own creation entirely? Think, anon!

>>149216490
Finally now getting down to some of the more interesting issues that are not talked about as much and are not quite as obvious as the prior issues mentioned above

The art is shit
And I'm deliberately posting a pretty good looking page to express this point.
The anatomy is great, the linework is great, the composition is great, the atmosphere is strong, the colours are bold.
But it is complete shit, it's absolutely hideous to look at. That's not just me talking, that's what the average person thinks. It doesn't matter that it is drawn with skill in every aspect, it's just simply hideous. Nobody can stand to look at the damn thing.

There's no art direction, the typical comics style is an unfocussed amalgamation of a hundred little things that just simply don't go well together.

>>149216511
And for reference, that's a very good looking page, the vast vast majority of pages are considerably worse. Pic related for example, this artist has no talent whatsoever, this is complete rubbish and would be laughed out the door of /ic/'s beginner general.

The art comes before the story.
Nobody is even going to bother reading the story if the art is bad. It must first and foremost be a pleasant visual experience.

>>149210598 (OP)
Here's the hard truth that people don't want to swallow: you don't. It's not that you CAN'T do it, its that the juice isn't worth the squeeze.
Instead of trying to patch the ship over and over again until it is more duct tape than wood, recognize that the Marvel comics setting has become too big, too bloated, to do anything other than continue to appeal to its current aging fanbase, and that newer audiences that wander in to support it are appreciated by not to be relied upon. EVERYTHING that would be necessary to save Marvel now would be an invasive surgery that amputates something that the older fans deemed essential and will never forgive you for. Because the people who have stuck around this long LIKE the way this shit tastes, people with higher standards already left.

You don't fix Marvel. You replace it. Launch a new line, a new setting, with new characters that DOES NOT CROSS OVER WITH EXISTING MARVEL. A setting that is designed from the ground up with an understanding of what causes DC and Marvel to become unsustainable messes, and with plans to keep things coherent and easy to read from the start. Characters that play out their arcs and have the grace to leave the stage when they are done instead of being propped up forever as cardboard cutouts of themselves for decades. Having a limited number of protagonists in circulation at a time instead of constantly bloating out endlessly because characters die or retire often enough that new heroes arise to replace them rather than simple be added to the pile. Storylines that share characters but only very rarely turn into mega crossover events, and said crossover events are 'end of an era' type situations where its expected that a number of characters are going to be dead or gone by the end of them and the next era after that will start with the new heroes that arise to fill in the gaps.

>>149216529
But to speak of the writing

Before the reader can even judge the story, they must first experience the writing. And in the vast majority of comics, this is terribly done.
The text boxes have far too many words in them that it is exhausting to read and they don't read like a human speaking but rather like an idiot writing a school essay.

The stories themselves are also extremely amateurish, they are all locked in that same 1940's world that is completely detached from any reality, this prohibits any good stories from being written.

>>149216476
>one part of your post
Yes, one part of 7. Most of which you ignored.
>white replacement bullshit
Actual hero replacement. Like what happened with Thor for example. Not some conspiracy. Factual things that the big 2 has done. This shouldn't have to be explained in a comic forum
>you must be a bigot
Not wanting existing characters to be shat on to prop up aforementioned forced diversity is not the sign of a bigot but a reasonable human being. Very ironic to accuse people of being brainwashed conspiracy nuts for things they did not say.

>>149216492
>Why would Marvel pay top dollar for something they can’t totally own and why would anyone with a brain take a deal like that when it means corporate side gets dibs for everything and will try to fuck you over as you can’t actually control your own creation entirely? Think, anon!
On Disney-Marvel's side it gets them ahead of the curve on emerging properties and trends. They don't do this because they don't care about new IPs and only bought Marvel for the existing ones. They will milk the dead cow but won't rear new ones.
> why would anyone with a brain take a deal like that
Money in pocket. Easy deal for movies etc. These kinds of deals aren't on the table at the moment anyway but its very easy to convince people with actual cash over the hypothetical one they could own if everything works out their way. It's very easy to say just own it yourself etc but for people living day-to-day they would take the financial security. If it was that easy, Image would be significantly more successful than it is.

>>149210598 (OP)
You don't. Either you're able to tolerate the stupidity, or you don't and run back to mangas.

>>149216560
Creating good art, and writing good stories is very difficult. Back in the 1940's, it wasn't, because back then, what passed as good is considered very bad today.
You would not be able to sell the original Superman today, not a single copy would leave the shelf. It's total garbage by todays standards.

To meet the demands of today, you must be a genius, and a genius cannot be simply hired and put to work on a pipeline. They must be discovered, curated, and carefully nurtured. Marvel and DC are not doing their duty in this department, and as such, they have allowed seedling of genius to wither and die before it reached their office.

>>149216511
>>149216529

One thing i do think that comics need to adapt to and recognize is the fact that comics have serious competition now in the form of anime and manga. Thats just something the casual audiences will be familiar with now, at least in passing, and forms a point of comparison. And its hard to judge comics favorably compared to manga when it comes to action and fights. With very few exceptions, most of which are DECADES old, comics action is extremely fucking stilted compared to manga action scenes. Its all super compressed, people are frozen in place like statues, with little sense of real movement because they are drawn in a perpetual state of flexing every muscle in their body like an anatomy model instead of, you know, *fighting*.

Now, to be clear, I am NOT saying "comics should draw in anime style". I don't want comics to be BE manga. I want comics to be AS GOOD AS manga. Raise their standards to what new audiences are just naturally going to be expecting from drawn media these days, instead of clinging to "well, it was good enough for 1960 so that means its good enough for 2030!"

>>149216607
Lets look over the pond for a moment to Kazuhiko Torishima and Takenori Ichihara, both chief editors of Shonen Jump, with very impressive track records of editing some of the top manga.

In their interviews and dialogues, they routinely stress that teh role of the editor is to discover and cultivate new talent.
It is extremely common that they will find an artist who cannot draw very well at all, who cannot write very well either, but it is their job as editor to look past that and see their potential, to see what they can become if supported.
Often an editor will latch onto and form an exclusivity deal with an artist up to several years before they're ready to produce anything worthy of publication. They will stay in contact with them, and push them in the right direction.
Being an editor is like being a parent in this sense, you must raise an artist. The genius is born within but if it is not nurtured, it cannot bear fruit.

Marvel and DC editors do not do this, they are lazy, they wait for the genius to walk through their doors fully formed, and as such, they have no geniuses on staff.
The editors are not doing their jobs

That's why multiple Generation should be a norm

>>149216676
That's a very Shueisha, and Jump-centric attitude. Other publishers expect some kind of industry experience before hand, while the former is almost cripplingly beholden to the idea of cultivating young talent since that is what made their success possible in the first place. It's not wrong but it doesn't have to be the only way to do things.

>>149216684
Unironically yes. A lot of Marvel and DC's problems stem from the eternal stasis that they have mandated for themselves. There are good stories in these universes, for these characters, but they are BURIED in medicore garbage and in many cases their best stories are later undone or invalidated by newer garbage retconning them away or trying to one-up them.

Pruning away characters after they have reached the end of their story, the world continues on without them, would do SO MUCH to keep the setting fresh because characters rotate in and out and it keeps the roster from getting overly bloated with ancient characters that Marvel feels obligated to bring out of the dumpster bin because they own them but don't actually serve a purpose anymore.
Like, when are we going to stop being chained to characters whose backstory is defined by WW2?

>>149216652
>I am NOT saying "comics should draw in anime style"
This is actually something I've been giving some serious thought lately, and have been considering writing a blog post under the bold title of "Manga doesn't actually exist" or something along those lines.

What i'm getting at is that. What we know as "manga style" is largely actually just "good art", and it appears distinct from comics because comics are just so consistantly bad that anything that is not bad immediately appears foreign and therefore manga.

I'll start with this little comparisan collage of noses.
It's a popular misconception that in anime, all the noses are little dots, but this is evidently not the case. They know how to draw noses, and they draw them very well, they are never disagreeable to look at, however in comics, the noses are often hideous to look at, because they don't know how to draw them in an appealing way.

>>149216705
Apparently the appealing way of drawing noses is barely drawing them at all.

>>149216705
Another comparison, this time with mouths.
The manga examples are appealing to look at, they are expressive, they are varied.
The comic mouths are disgusting and grotesque, they form ugly shapes, they have an obsession with bimbo lips and showing the gums and saliva. Nobody wants to look at this.

Furthermore, they're all the same, and they don't communicate very well at all, you can't tell what emotion is being conveyed in most of these, whereas you can in many of the manga examples.

This is very simply a lack of talent on the comics part

>>149216747
One more for the features, the eyes

The "big eyes" is the most distinctive trait of manga, and really the only thing that makes it stand out stylistically from the west.
Why does manga feature big eyes?
Because it conveys emotion better. Does this really need to be spelled out?

This is not just a stylistic choice, it is an objectively good idea.
Comics are a limited medium, many drawings must be drawn, they must be drawn quickly, and they must be drawn at a small scale. It is essential to have a method of drawing that quickly and effectively conveys emotion.
The eyes in comics do not show any emotion, in fact, Batman, one of the most popular characters in comics, has his eyes whited out, as does Spiderman, and a few others.

Draw big eyes, because it's a good idea to do so, that's why manga does it.

And as a side note, they don't all have big eyes, many of the examples here are quite small, but they while they are small, they are still drawn in a more cartoony way that better expresses emotion.

>>149216724
Noses are weird and are like the one part of the face that *doesn't* move or express emotion. The eyes are the windows of the soul. The mouth conveys expression, etc. But noses and ears are both complicated and expressionless. Detail on them is not just wasted, it actively distracts from the part of the faces you want the reader to be looking at. The nose needs to be there because without them you don't have a complete face, but the suggestion of a nose does as much work as a hyper detailed one, because your attention should never be drawn to the nose.

>>149216789
But to speak more of good ideas, lets talk about the speed lines, the oh so distinctive feature of manga, speed lines everywhere.

Are they an idiosyncratic choice on manga's part? Do manga artists draw them just for the heck of it? No, they are there because they communicate movemen. Something which superhero comics feature an absolute abundance of, but who, for no discernable reason, choose to not draw speed lines.

On the left is a typical superhero comic, as you can see, there are not speed lines, therefore there is no sense of motion. On the right is a manga inspired western comic, it features speed lines, it looks good.

Speed lines are not a stylistic choice unique to manga, they are a good idea, and arguably the only decent way of conveying motion.
You must use speed lines if you are a comic artist, this is non negotiable.

>>149216705
>>149216747
>>149216789
Are you incapable of understanding the difference between style and technique? In broad terms comics have much more realistic figures than manga which has cartoonish expressionism. It's not inherently better or worse either way.

>>149216815
Here are some more examples.
Comics tell stories through sequential images, they are akin to animation in that sense, but unlike animation, they are not animated, they sit somewhere inbetween and so must you clever techniques to communicate motion.
Speed lines are one such technique.
This is not a stylistic choice, it is a good idea

>>149216839
But these speed lines, and the art and lines on the page in general can be used to convey all sorts of motions and emotions and tones and effects. Just as there is no animation in comics, there is also no sound.
Artistic techniques such as these can be used to convey these things through static images.

Comics feature none of these techniques

>>149216795
Noses are significant in showing off the face as a three dimensions. I noticed in your manga nose collage you skipped an artist likeAraki who’s always using noses and the bottom of the chin to show off faces in angles.
Softer noses also generally make a character seem younger. A lot of your comic examples are older characters, and the nose is part of what makes them read as older. Even manga will have more prominent noses on older characters.

>>149216853
As you can see from all these examples, absolutely everything that at first appears to be the "Stylistic choice" of manga are all actually just clever techniques to create better art in comics.
If a western comic were to buckle down and learn to draw, they would inevitably produce art that looks just like manga.

It is as if you were to design a high speed fighter jet, on one hand you have a bunch of backwards morons who design something that cannot lift off the air, and on the other hand you have a typical fighter jet that does fly. The differences between the two are not stylistic choices, they are purely technical. One is good while the other shit, and if the shit one determined to be less shit, they would inevitably produce a plane that looks like the fighter jet.

In this sense... manga does not exist, there is no manga style, there is only good art and it looks like manga.

>>149216856
I'm not the guy posting the collages. He must have had all of this prepared, like, way in advance. No way he is making these collages and writeups on the spot, it would take hours.

>>149210888
/thread

>>149216895
Comics should not copy manga, they should copy good ideas.

They should start drawing characters in a more cartoony fashion because this is more appealing, more economical, and better at conveying emotion.
They should start using speed lines and other artistic techniques to better convey motion and tone.
They should stop drawing their eyes, mouths, and noses in stupidly ugly ways and learn how to draw them properly.

I haven't mentioned the panelling but that is another example of good ideas vs bad ideas.
The panelling in comics is bad for the objective reason that it's hard to read. The drawings are too small, there are too many panels, the flow through the panels is nonsensical. On the flipside, manga panels are optimally sized and shaped and they flow well, they keep you engrossed in the action and not distracted by the borders.
Don't believe me? Open a manga and a comic, put them on the floor and read them at a glass. You will find the manga is perfectly readable, while the comic becomes incomprehensible.
It's not a matter of style, it's like the fighter jet, one is the design that actually flies and everything else is ground to the floor.

>>149216853
>Comics feature none of these techniques
That’s not even remotely true

>>149216942
glance*

>>149216942
>The panelling in comics is bad for the objective reason that it's hard to read
Lol no

>>149210863
>Re-writing, re-inking and re-colouring the classics.
Maybe when good editors were around to micromanage, but not so much now.
Too many in the biz now know they can coast on brand recognition, so there's a lot of indifference if not contempt towards actually writing the stories instead of the story the writer wants or knows will net them present recognition or sales.
There's a reason narratives have stagnated and throwing Wolverine or Spidey onto a cover or crossover shamelessly amped up, there's a focus on marketing more than quality.

I hesitate to disapprove of you elaborating yourself where most don't, or can't, but a lot of it isn't necessary until the initial hurdle of supervision is solved. Someone has to tell the others when they're just scrawling out phoned in fanfiction or ragebait instead of actually improving or adding to anything.

Robert downey junior is dead, consider this mercy.

Level 4- address the sliding time-scale.

No comments here, it should be obvious why

>>149216703
I really don’t understand why people who so despise superhero comics always complain about the most stupid shit possible and then suggest completely silly things as a way to improve things.

Hulk unironically has runs that clear 99% of mangas out there.

>>149217780
such as?

>>149210598 (OP)
Brave and the Bold style teamup cartoon with Gwenpool as the main character spouting trivia

>>149217778
A lot of people here don't even hate superhero comics really, they have little experience with them. I don't think they like them, or would like then, but the sheer anger and hate over superhero comics comes more from the last 20 years of pop culture.
What they really hate is superhero movies and the dominance they have in movies and how normies latched onto superheroes. 4chan will always be an inherently anti-normie website, and superheroes are now tied to a cultural disease 4chan posters hate.

Anon's ideas are pretty sound, you might as well just go the whole way and do a whole universe wide reboot, but then start adapting classic stories with new art, some changed dialogue etc.

Start at #1, and keep the same writers/artist through the run. Sell the comics in monthly installments.

Hell, maybe even adapt the manga industry's black and white pages and full color covers- the covers are the selling point for most people anyways. Have some good artists working their ass off on the insides and go from there.

Collect omnibuses later of a whole run as well, and continue to sell collected editions of old comics too.

Marvel Comics' sales peak was in the 80s when they had over 20 years worth of continuity, no cheap and easy way to get back issues other than what Marvel chose to reprint, no big trade paperback program. It didn't matter because they were entertaining stories with good art at a fair price. Anything else is overthinking it.

>>149217908
>you might as well just go the whole way and do a whole universe wide reboot, but then start adapting classic stories with new art, some changed dialogue etc.
this is always a well intentioned idea, but on a monthly comic schedule it's going to take years or literal decades to reach the introductions of most of these characters and stories, or having breathing room to really explore them. even if you launch them all earlier in time.
It also makes reprints of the original versions of those stories basically worthless to new readers(which happened with DC's New 52).
And very rarely has any retelling or update of a classic story/character ever superseded. I think the original Ultimate universe is an example of everything that can go wrong with a good idea like that. Look at Ultimate spider-man, arguably the most successful of that universe. Almost none of it gets adapted over the original comic telling, and visually none of the updates either.

Honestly, Marvel at least has a definitive starting point. It's a pain in the ass if you're not using the Wiki, but at the very least you know that the universe starts with Fantastic Four Vol. 1 #1.
It's better than DC's fucking schizophrenia where you kind of just have to blindly guess where exactly they stopped making slop for retarded WWII-era children and actually started to put some effort in their stories.

>>149210598 (OP)
I find in interesting that it's only American comic books that nerds cry have to gatekeeping and let casuals in when every other form of media they moan lowering the bar of entry to appeal to new fans.
Marvel already makes billions of dollars, comics aren't going anywhere and you're already a comic book reader, what do care for casual readership?

>>149218235
>It's better than DC's fucking schizophrenia where you kind of just have to blindly guess where exactly they stopped making slop for retarded WWII-era children and actually started to put some effort in their stories.
The answer is 1967 though it took a while for some books to catch up.

this entire thread STINKS of reddit

>>149218254
You do not get better comics by appealing to nerds only, it is a balance. By having a healthier market you can also appeal to more niche audiences. The idea that quality and quantity are opposed is false

>>149217780
You wish. Also stop writing like a dumb zoomer.

>>149218254
Zoomers do not comprehend the idea of liking something not mainstream. They, being a generation obsessed with trends, relate everything to how popular it is.

>>149218360
The best Marvel comics were made exclusively for boys aged 10-20.

>>149218540
I'm not sure if you're posting this to agree or disagree with me, as boys aged 10-20 would be casuals according to some but they aren't capturing that market and haven't been for many years which is part of the problem

>>149218235
Who the fuck thinks they have to go read Superman from the 1930s if they’re a normie starting to read comics? Nobody. This doesn’t happen.

Marvel (and DC) comics suck for mainstream audiences because they aren’t stories in the way most fictional works are stories. When people experience a work of fiction, regardless if it’s literature/movies/video games/etc, people expect a complete story. Big 2 comics are antithetical to this expectation because they’re IP mills designed to run forever, no matter how stupid shit gets. Without the legacy IPs they are nothing and nothing will change because new talent that would want to create new things would immediately get fucked over by the company policy both have which anything you make be property of the company. Manga authors unironically get better deals, even in the bigger platforms like WSJ.

>>149219441
>. When people experience a work of fiction, regardless if it’s literature/movies/video games/etc, people expect a complete story
this is retarded and a relatively new selling point for long running storytelling. No one watches TV cop shows or sitcoms or comedies for the eventual ending of the entire show. Most TV shows have never gotten a proper ending. Many book series are just a series of installments with no overall ending. Even many manga lack a proper ending or are structured in such a way that a definitive ending isn't necessary.
You guys have a really bad habit with taking shonen and young adult novels as representative of all media. Generally all immediate stories have endings but an overarching finale or goal that has to be reached isn't a requirement of all fiction.
When a superhero character catches the badguy and stops the immediate threat, that story ends. The overall story goes on, but there is an ending.

>>149219533
It's all about tone
When you watch a comedy or a sitcom you don't expect a giant continuity and plot progression because it's very lighthearted in tone.
When you watch Spongebob, you don't expect that Plankton is ever going to get the Krabby Patty Formula, or that Spongebob is going to get his license, and if he does, you don't blink for a second when suddenly in the next episode the universe is reset.
You don't start Spongebob at episode 1, nor do you have to watch any other episode to get the gist.


HOWEVER none of this applies to comics.
Comics DO have continuity
Comics DO have serious stories
Comics DO have a serious tone

Yes yes for a while in the early 70's it was all fun and games, but it hasn't been like that for a very long time and nobody wants it to be like that. That kind of tone doesn't sell for Marvel and DC, those kinds of stories are shit and boring, people want continuity, serious stories, plot progression.
And along with that comes the importance of beginnings and endings.
You may be able to pick up Spongebob on a random episode 5 seasons deep, but you cannot pick up Breaking Bad on a random episode 5 seasons deep. You must start with number 1

And no, nobody is going to tolerate 'not knowing' what they're reading. If they see a character they don't know who hasn't been introduced, they're going to stop reading, because that is fucking retarded.

>>149219616
People started Dragon Ball by skipping half of the manga up to that point. Or the people who prefer to skip to Part 3 of Jojo so they can get to the Stand fights.
A lot of those shows were serious and had continuity and callback. People just weren't as fucking mindbroken by the idea that they didn't already know everything.

>>149219616
Comics were popular for decades after they started having stronger continuity.

>>149219731
Those examples feature bold and distinct departures from their past and never require the reader to know anything from the past
Comics don't do that, they are obsessed with bringing up the past no matter how many times they reboot
The new 52 was a fucking trainwreck precisely and soley becuase of this

>>149219616
Again, cop/crime shows, dramas, other assorted genres within those spheres, no ones watching those for the end of the series, they watch to see what happens next.

>>149218235
>at the very least you know that the universe starts with Fantastic Four Vol. 1 #1
no you don’t. not unless you’re already fully immersed in comics.

>>149219822
That's an entire seperate issue anon, that's just the current crop of comic writers being bad.
Also, Dragon Ball literally has all the old cast be very casually introduced (because they expect you to know them) and then killed like they matter.

>>149210598 (OP)
I agree with this >>149210639.
>stop pushing socio-politlcal agendas;
>stop worrying too much about being politically correctness;
>make easily-relatable characters with cute or cool designs;
>STOP USING A SHIT TON OF WRITERS. this makes the stories an inconsistent mess in the long run.
>make the story have a beginning, a middle, and an end.

>>149219822
>Movie/TV show/Book introduces a character who's old friends with the MC
>WTF who is this guy!? I've never met him!
>Movie/TV show/Book has a character who has 10 years of experience in a field
>I never saw that! How do I know what happened??

>>149219822
The Cell saga was a direct result of Goku's war with the Red Ribbon army when he was a kid, episodes no one had even seen when it aired in the US for the first time.

>>149220053
Have you ever thought that maybe you just don't like comic books.
Them changing isn't going to make you like them more

>>149219858
Most people pick up Dragonball Z without having read Dragonball because they're not even aware that Dragonball exists. And they do well because it's done well.

In comics it's not done well, you pick up a number 1 Batman or whatever, he runs around Gotham for a few pages, and then out of the blue, Green Lantern or whatever just pops out of a portal and the two start talking about what happened in issue #453 and cross over events from decades ago, all with no adequate explanation or introduction

>>149220198
Your example is entirely made up. You're always given all the context you need.

>>149220071
>>149220168
What is this nonsense argument, do you actually believe what you're writing?
Can you not see the obvious difference between the examples you're trying to bash vs the shitshow that is comics?

I don't even need to attempt to dismantle this because it's so obvious to anyone with half a brain.
You can't be serious in defending what you know to be a mess

>>149220224
>argument from incredulity

>>149220224
You're missing the forest for the trees.
Unending stories and continuity isn't killing comics,
The art looks boring and unappealing,the pages are bogged down with words, they're uninteresting to read and find how to start reading them or what to read after you finish a story, stuff like that is killing comics.
No one gets into a story so that some day 5-15 years down the line they get the ending.
They read it because it's engaging right now.

>>149216511
based essay and completely right.
You know why manga/anime got as popular as it did in the first place? IT'S THE ART. Yes, people stay for decent storytelling, but how those stories are told are an important part.
It's not just copying big eyes and superficial speedlines, but understanding the why behind that style as well.
Even a half-decent manga page makes reading engaging. Very few comics make it feel as effortless to read. People can digest thousands of manga pages but would be hard pressed to get through 100 comic pages because the visuals and writing are just dense and assaulting.

>>149216529
>>149216511
>>149216490
>>149216467
>>149216441
>midwit tier criticisms

>>149220493
>responding to your own post with a different IP to support how "based" your own opinions are

lol

>>149220518
He's right and it's the biggest elephant in the room that no one gets, mainly because everyone is an ideas guy and not artistically minded
Visually it's all just so fucking uncool.
There's a reason people flock to the game designs like Rivals but don't pay attention to most comic designs.

>>149210598 (OP)
Write good comics instead of transexual communist propaganda.

>>149219822
>Jojo part 3 never requires the reader to know anything from the past
Lmao
At least you'd have a better argument if you had said Steel Ball Run

>>149216511
I don't universally agree with the general sentiment, it depends on the artist of course, but it's actually easy to understand how the "technically skilled but effectively dull" effect happened.

I can't recall where, but someone pointed out how the rise of Jim Lee and his imitators coincides with the sort of person who wanted splash pages that could eventually be used as posters or sold as art prints.

So along with using splash pages to decompress scenarios the art therein also became less for the utility of comics and more for finances and market.

Someone with East vs West tunnel vision might bring up big spreads in manga like Berserk as a rebuttal for flourish being fine. But you're missing the point, Miura still utilized the art there for the purpose of bolstering the comic itself. You'd see the scale of an army, a place or monster or the impact of action on the environment. I'm not going to say sheer illustrative flexing or editorial decompression have never been involved but they don't appear to be the main or sole ingredient.

With the sort of splash art that the Jim Lees go for the purpose is just to have recognizable figures front and center with as little distorting or distracting from the full illustration of their market value for selling the piece.

Take pic related >>149220594
Logos can't be obstructed so the bodies are always in a position and at an angle that prevents this, expressions are neutral so the work is suitable to post up in serious and lighthearted venues, characters can react to each other but scarcely interact with each other, the most lucrative properties front and center.

Superhero comics are not the entirety of western comics, but they are prominent representatives for better or worse, and their issue is less anything inherent and more that the writing and illustration have stopped being for the craft of comics and became more IP business cards to lure collectors or film and TV studios or shareholders.

>>149220780
It never once mentions hamon

>>149220508
newflash! most people are sub-midwits!
You need to cater to them.
Most people couldn't articulate what attracts them to manga over comics or really get it. A companies job is to understand.

>>149220865
dio calls out joseph using hamon in the finale, and joseph uses it in other occasions. i know you didn't watch parts 1 and 2 but at least pretend to know what happens in part 3

>>149220927
1 or 2 tiny moments but that have no impact on the story whatsoever.
You're just grasping for straws.
Comics are filled with incomprehensible lore, completely turning away any new readers with its autism

>>149220943
If you think children's picture books are complicated, you're retarded.

>>149220943
shifting the goalposts from "literally never happened" to "1 or 2 tiny moments that have no impact"
even though it's a major part of joseph's battle against dio, and would leave part skippers utterly confused as to why Joseph has another power besides his Stand and why is Dio afraid of it

>>149216703
>when are we going to stop being chained to characters whose backstory is defined by WW2?
Never. The entirety of modern Western culture and politics is defined by WW2.

>>149217901
So in other words it's just midwit-seething

>>149220906
You're making the exact same blunder as the comic book fans in charge

You don't change everything into manga-style just because it's the most popular thing

>>149210748
Exactly. It's that simple. Make a new self-contained series, one that's easy to pick up at any point in a story and dive right in. There's so many ways they could do it, too.
I'm genuinely surprised they've never taken some of these approaches, 'cause they seem like utter no-brainers to me. Like, instead of forcing MCU "synergy" into 616, they could just...make comics set in the MCU?? They don't have to be canon to it, just say it's a parallel timeline, Earth-19999.1 or whatever. But that's not to say that they couldn't make comics that are actually canon to the MCU without treading on the toes of future movies. Just set them in between the movies, have them deal with B-list villains, introduce some C-list heroes, maybe fill in some tiny plot holes and flesh out backstories and so on and so forth. I haven't really watched Agents of SHIELD but from what I know, it'd be a good template for how hypothetical MCU comics should be done.

>>149222131
Alternatively...just copy what DC did and take advantage of Webtoon. Put the Infinity Comics on there. Most of those seem like they're aimed at casuals and new readers anyways, like the high school AU or all the pet-focused comics, so why are they not on a platform where new readers can readily discover them??

I'm too cool for Marvel.

>>149210598 (OP)
The entire western comic book industry needs to stop treating comics like storyboards for netflix slop and soap operas. I'm fucking tired of reading a Batman comic or a Spidey comic and it reads like a fucking episode of the Young and the Restless.

When they actually start writing stories with purpose and an actual story to tell, they'll actually start experiencing real success.

>>149216703
>we should retire or kill off the characters people actually care about, the ones that sell
>and then we should keep going, pushing our own OCs
>that's sure to work, everyone loves our OCs
Arguing for periodic end points and reboots would be more sensible than getting rid of all the characters you actually depend on to sell comics. And a reboot will usually just mean the new writers doing their own versions of all the 'classic' stories all over again.

>>149216233
Because a bunch of aging middle-aged sperglords can't keep the industry alive for too long.

>>149215944
>Stan was just a lying thief who took credit for everything Kirby and Ditko created. Dude, trust me, for it is known.
>But I think Brotherhood of Evil Mutants is a stupid name, and Lucifer is a stupid character, so Stan can have the credit for them

Kirby created or co-created a gorillion characters over his career, and not all of them were winners, there are a lot of them that ended up being villains nobody cared for much, who only had a few appearances. Lucifer isn't that egregious, you just want the DRAMA of a character who ended up being a more successful villain to be the one who crippled Xavier. And the key thing is, back when they were making these comics, they had literally no idea which villains were going to be the ones that took off and which ones would flop.

Most of the objection to the "Evil Mutants" name is rooted in the "muh people, muh rights" direction X-Men took in later decades. Whether Stan or Jack named the Brotherhood, they aren't to blame for later writers going crazy and trying to pretend Magneto wasn't evil. Silver Age villains who were openly revelling in their evilness was a thing at Marvel and DC.