Used an engine? You didn't make the game

>>105780632 (OP)
>Used a programming language that's not made by you? You didn't make the game
>Used a compiler that's not made by you? You didn't make the game
we can go further further down the retarded road if he wants lol

>>105780632 (OP)
Based take 2bh. Fuck lazy jeet coders.

>>105780632 (OP)
this moron didn't make an original game he copied from this, he's not the good guy to talk about "starting from scratch"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JlSIbbAu088

>makes game in java

>>105780632 (OP)
wish people would be more modest when talking about what worked for them *personally*

>>105780632 (OP)
It's true

>>105780632 (OP)
He used Java though, why didn't he make his own programming language?

>If you used notepad.exe you didn't actually write a book.

>>105780632 (OP)
Funny thing coming from a game designer who couldn't come up with his own gameplay concepts and only made things worse whenever he added something new.
Also mc standard edition always ran like shit. Still I agree with having more custom or at least in-house engines.

I don't agree with the whole "you have to make everything yourself from scratch" mindset, but there is something to this; if you look at video games you'll find good ones generally used in-house engines, whereas good games using commercial engines are very, very rare.

>>105780632 (OP)
>add 5-10 years to your game's development time
>doesn't even cite a practical reason, appeals to vanity instead

If an engine works for you and helps you get your creation out faster, why not use it?

>>105780632 (OP)
>food analogy
retard

>>105780632 (OP)
>creates game with terrible graphics AND terrible performance 20 years before unreal engine 5
based?

>>105780754
>not also creating your own OS
You did not make the game

>>105780754
Chefs don't make their out pots and pans.

if you didn't write your game engine in C++ and DirectX12, you are a homosexual

Write your own fucking compiler, heck build your own fucking pc and components too.
Writers too, build your own fucking paper and pen

>>105781695
*Vulkan

Direct3D is for winjeets

>>105781767
>dood just increase your dev time by 10x to increase your potential market by 1%
A perfect example of bad life decisions.

>>105780632 (OP)
Imo, for 2D stuff where performance is not really a concern, go for it. It can be a nicer experience than fighting the game engine and their community.
I don’t recommend using (free) assets too. Learn how to draw.
Use SDL if you’re not autistic. Iirc animal well didn’t even use SDL.

>>105781660
If you worked in kitchen you will know that chefs have bunch of slaves to do most of the menial work for them.

>>105780632 (OP)

Kind of funny that he would say that considering minecraft is extremely basic in its mechanisms. In 5 years time I wouldn't be surprised if someone would be able to generate code to make a game similar to minecraft in technical terms.

It is absurd to even think about a developer/dev team creating their own game engine that can compete with other games by studios. This isn't TTD or RCT where you just go write the game in assemby, unless you're trying to make a simple indie game, you will be competing against actual studios that have actual experienced devs and they stil churn out garbage games with numerous bugs. For a small dev team it would be a lifetime work to make one game with a bespoke game engine, and that has absolutely no chance of being a guaranteed hit. As a matter of fact, the likelyhood for it being shit is more likely than not.

You can make a mechanically and graphically simple game for autists and hope it makes it, but as a dev, do you really WANT to make a game for autists, leaning on it being based on extremely simple mechanics or do you want to make something that rivals the great big games?

>>105780632 (OP)
>didn't hit the mine to get the copper for his own chips
nothing he does or says matters.

>>105780665
>used cherries and wheat to bake a cherry pie?
you are not a real cook if you didn't bake a whole universe from scratch

CANDY. WALL.

>>105781779
Or you could just use SDL to make your window and get vulkan support for free.

>>105781942
>SDL
1982 called they want their graphics api back

>>105781942
Ha!
>>105781951
This. How long has SDL2 been out?!?

>>105780632 (OP)
>use my own engine
>not even that counts
bruh

>>105781924
there are no great, big games today. movie games are not real games, so don't
>
any of them at me either.

>>105781970
You have to reinvent everything from scratch, or you're not inventing gameplay.

>>105781951
>SDL
>graphics API

>>105782281
well, it's not an api for hooking up with other gay men for butt sex if that's what you were hoping for

>>105780632 (OP)
>only successful game is a pixelshit indie game
>talks like he's the messiah of game development
he hardly knows shit about fuck.

>>105781970
if you aren not programming everything from graphics to music to code in raw executable assembly you might as well not make the game. its as simple as that.

>>105780632 (OP)
If you don't write your game engine in C++ you are a baseddev.

writing a game engine isn't even hard but no I'm not gonna 1ma half a million lines of boilerplate before I even start working on my actual video game

>>105780632 (OP)
this is all i need to see to know that his new game will never come out

yet notch use a java framework not that much different than unity's c#

>>105782444
This is /g/, right?
You should know that you can just write the game along with the engine.
A full fledged game engine with development kit like Unity or Unreal isn't required in the slightest.
Games are only so complicated depending on scope. It's honestly not that time consuming. The bottleneck is still asset creation.

>>105783095
yikes anon you really don't know what you're talking about

>>105783095
youve had over 2000 videogame generals to prove that point

>>105781779
>>dood just increase your dev time by 10x
>Vulkan
>in 2025
Holy SKILL ISSUE.

>>105780632 (OP)
>Authors don't download a story template for their books then see how much they can be creative within those limits
Yes they do. Most top selling authors are using formulas with specific beats similar to Save the Cat
Not talking about the hero's journey or whatever either

just dont make an indie game is that shrimple. Making an indie game worked in 2010s and it doesnt work anymore.

>>105780632 (OP)
Authors don't write their own text editors.
Gamedevs don't download story templates for the plot in their games.
Engineering =/= creative writing

>>105780632 (OP)
Theres some truth to this for sure. Games made on Unreal or Unity still need dedicated engine programmers on the team. If you don't have this kind of knowledge then you're going to end up with a game that's either trivial or non-functional.

>>105780715
he used java vm to write a clone of an existing game. he's the last person to take such advice from

>>105780632 (OP)
I want to say he's wrong but he's the billionaire and I'm typing this from my mom's basement. I was thinking about using Unity or LOVE but I think i'm going to take his advice.

minecraft also has no lighting or shading. its a crude looking game.

>>105783187
if you want to taje his advice then make a crude looking gane with the java franework he used

>>105783187
Use LOVE nigga
Notch is washed up
LOVE is just a bundle of libraries that perform boilerplate like rendering/audio and physics, so you'll still learn "from scratch" game development patterns using it.

>>105780632 (OP)
so true, video games are the only real application for programming and you're an embarrassment if you don't share this arbitrary interest with the random twitter user

>>105781827
i remember playing stardew valley on my core2duo laptop some years ago and it would use 2G of ram and ran at 15fps. it's embarrassingly inefficient

>>105783208
He used java? wtf! opinion dismissed. I'm just gonna use LOVE.

>>105781934
>he doesn't conjure matter out of pure energy himself
ngmi

>>105781851
perhaps game developers can learn from this overextended analogy

im just one guy making an entire game alone all by myself with no background in CS or game dev. i cant make my own game engine, or even write programs. the only way i can make my game is using whats already there.

>>105780632 (OP)
> uses java because he's too fucking retarded to use a real programming language
> lecturing others about game engines
opinion absolutely and thoroughly discarded.

>>105783309
In the past programmers would write simple games in Basic and then make more advanced stuff from there. You'll learn some core concepts from using an engine that will transfer over if you decide to do something more low level later on. Gaining experience is never a bad thing, so just keep going.

>>105780665
>>Used a programming language that's not made by you? You didn't make the game
this strawman doesn't really work, because the point is understanding and controlling the game. So the furthest relevant level is a game engine.
Once you get lower than that, it stops becoming relevant to the game because the slightly different assembly for your if statement still produces the same behavior.

>>105783309
> i cant make my own game engine, or even write programs
i taught myself assembly languages, c etc. in my spare time. you can do it if you want to.
>the only way i can make my game is using whats already there
understandable. many great games released over the years by programmers only knowing about how to program whatever game engine at hand.

>>105780665
no one with the wherewithal to operate a web browser can be this retarded, can they?

>>105780665
>2=3
>2=3
Hey guys I think 2=2
>>2=1
>>2=0
>we can go further further down the retarded road if he wants lol

>>105783335
he used javascript and targeted webgpu for his current game.
fundamentally people misunderstand what notch is good at, he is very much a programmer who spent most of his time working on rendering in a lot of places over the years, so yes he has a skillset and handle on stuff that is important

>>105783110
>>105783115
I used to write a ton of games with SDL2, ranging from small side scrollers, to dragon quests-esque rpgs.
It's honestly not that time consuming, plus it's fun.
I've tried engines like Unity and Godot but I spent so much time just fighting them then actually getting any work done.

No need to use platform-specific API anymore.
https://wiki.libsdl.org/SDL3/CategoryGPU

>>105781962
Who gives a shit about SDL2? Use SDL3.

>>105783960
>fundamentally people misunderstand what notch is good at,
not much. he got lucky with minecraft.
>, so yes he has a skillset
i'm sure he completely believes that but it's nonsense. if he had any clue he wouldn't be writing such fucking shit on social media. he would know something - anything - about game engines. he would have some form clue as to how challenging it can be using some engines, the languages involved. notch is literally a drooling retard.

>>105780632 (OP)
If you can't use a programming language without automatic garbage collection you're not a real programmer.

>>105784028
Not quite, it doesn't support all features and you still need to compile shaders.

>>105781938
>candy wall
Pretty mundane. Have you seen the cheese room some mansions have?

>Lightweight Java Game Library
Used a library? You didn't make a game
>Infiniminer
Used an idea? You didn't make a game

READ THE LICENSE
(or sell it free and antonym)

>>105780632 (OP)
I used to get very insecure that people would say things like this, but eventually I stopped caring and decided that I'll insist I'm not a programmer even when I've done things that are unambiguously programming. I don't want to be associated with annoying elitists.

>>105783148
I think its fine as long as the reader don't notice

Used a CPU? you didn't make a game, tapeout your ASIC.

>>105780632 (OP)
im a chef and i can cook frozen pizza too. can i change to coding? would be fun to do something new. ive mastered my trade and can cook 15 frozen pizzas in one go with a big enough oven. not many chefs can do that amount of output. i was praised for my efficiency and output but never quite made masterchef,

>>105780715
>>105783181
>he used java
he invented java, retard.

>>105785357
he once made a 3d game using a java2d pixel buffer for ludum dare 48.
see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IoR-G8Ud0JM (he code the 3d renderer in the first minute).
the longer videos are available here: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLgAujBKarXXoMxJDyi1Am4yvfbHYWRwOC

>>105782412
>C++
and if you did you just made bloatware

>>105780632 (OP)
I'd like to make my own engine someday but jusy shipping a game is already difficult and the economy isn't really in a place where you can work part time and support yourself, so finding the time to make an engine, make a game, source and create all the assets is just not viable for most people

real game devs use javascript and the canvas

>>105785976
canvas is pretty kino desu but javascript is just so ass i would literally rather write C than deal with that shit, i guess it's kinda the thing for webapps tho

>>105780632 (OP)
>making a pizza? grow your own wheat
No. Lol.

>>105785973
>can write an engine
>cannot create art or assets
i suffer...i'm also autistic about optimization which doesn't help at all

>>105780632 (OP)
>write your own engine!
>creates a pile of shit so big that modders would rather completely replace significant parts of it than fix it
Yeah, Notch isn't one to talk. Encouraging gamedevs to do MORE programming is a bad idea.

>>105780665
Unironically yes, step up your game retard.

>>105786015
Look at a pdf for drawing on the right side of the brain and get the general idea. Draw a box is kind of a meme but it has some ideas on construction that are useful and it gets you into the habit of making things.
I think the whole idea of getting into art is just developing a flow state with it. Then you learn methods for realizing what you're trying to create.
Once you can sit down and just start making things without getting sidetracked (just enjoy the process and don't get too concerned with the results) you can study design fundamentals and specific domains to help yourself become a better artist. I can't say I'm a great artist, but I have the aptitude to become one and can produce art in many areas now

>>105786002
>rather write C than deal with that shit
Thank god for web assembly. Sure you need to expose the js functions needed but that's nothing, hell you can even use emscripten instead of regular clang to do most of the heavy lifting for you.

>>105786091
I really can't emphasize enough that you have to get into a flow state and not allow your self criticism to get in the way. Like open a 3d modeling program, make some shitty low poly model, unwrap the UV and then color it in some way like substance, texture painting in blender, or paint the texture alone in a paint program. Hell you can even use something like substance designer or just slap a shader on it.
But in the process, your self criticism should be limited to ways you can improve what you're working on in the flow of making it. If you think it's shit, save that for after and try to channel that into actual constructive criticism based on improving the design elements or techniques used

>>105781653
The problem is that having to install an OS to play a game would suck massively and reduce sales.

Everything above the OS level is fair game though because the end user is getting the binary either way (unless it's a source based game).

>>105781827
>he refused to use SDL

>>105786141
>source based game with no official builds*

>>105781779
Why Direct3D instead of OpenGL?

opengl is too hard

>>105786173
If OpenGL is too hard you may try Vulkan

>>105784028
You say it like Vulkan is one.

>>105786185
vulkan is even worse

>>105786193
So what exactly do you not understand about them? They're not that complicated.

>>105780632 (OP)
i remember notch's code was notoriously garbage, it must have took microsoft years to finally de-notchify minecraft and get rid of all his rose colored glasses slop code

he is right and people are missing the point on purpose, because it hurts their feelings.
of course you can make a game in game engine. the question is: what kind of game. the answer is: slop, something derivative that has been 100's of times.

making games requires skills. and learning how to make game engine is the process of acquiring these skills.

you can't make cool presentation without deep understanding of graphics programming.
you can't make cool gameplay without deep understanding of programming in general, math, linear algebra, various algorithms etc.

basically, watching and copying basic tutorials is your limit without custom game engine.

>>105780632 (OP)
>not using your own game engine written in your own programming language compiled with your own compiler on your own operating system running on your own hardware powered by your own generator
You can't call yourself a real programmer otherwise.

>>105780665
Honestly if you're not using a modified compiler for a large scale project you're NGMI.

>>105786310
I mean, yes.

>>105786301
>the answer is: slop, something derivative that has been 100's of times
This is just bullshit. Most people make derivative games because that's what they want to make, games like the ones theyve played before. You can do a lot with the big engines if you wanted to. Sure you can learn a lot from making an engine but pretending you can't make a unique game without it, or that people making engines have significantly more unique games is just cope

>>105786173
just use AI

Real niggas roll their own CPU rasterizer.

>>105786310
It doesn't count if you didn't mine the minerals for the hardware yourself.

>>105780754
Hell, when you use Java it's not even running on your machine. It's running on the (((JVM))). It won't even run your code, it'll run whatever (((((bytecode))))) it feels like generating.

>>105786171
better performance

>>105786171
Easier to program in and better compatibility since everything can run DirectX anyways. OpenGL has a lot of issues on iGPUs.

>>105781931
>chips
>copper
you dumb motherfucker

>>105786301
>you can't make cool gameplay without deep understanding of programming in general, math, linear algebra
You can make cool 2d games without any of that stuff. Game dev has a lot of room for all kinds of grugs
What the uneducated grugs will struggle with is limiting the scope of their games, they'll go with everything and the kitchen sink otherwise and will get like 3fps on anything that isn't strictly 2d.

>>105780632 (OP)
Used a framework (especially raylib)? You didn't make the game

>>105786428
How can you make a 2d platformer without understanding collisions?

>>105786488
>use engine
>set asset to have the type of collision you want

>>105785976
I think that's what Notch is doing for Levers and Chests anyway.

>>105780632 (OP)
Notch is like 135 IQ, he says it's easy but most gamedevs are way below that.

>>105786546
I wouldn't say 135 IQ, he basically understands the most important part of the process which is rendering and all the mathematics/data structures involved because he is a rendering programmer

>>105786557
That's easily 135 iq. 135 isn't that crazy, I've scored higher on some tests. 145+ is when you start getting into freak territory. 100 is basically retarded with how complex today's world is, and 100-125 is filled with midwit pitfalls

>>105786583
No, he just spent the time studying and toying with rendering. Its what he is primarily interested in, why do you think he fixated on voxels, and now with his new game fixated on janky ass webgpu

>>105786502
So that's the point, if you do that do you really make a game or are you just asset flipping?

>>105786614
This idea that you didn't make a game if you used an engine, store bought assets, or even other people's plugins and code is retarded. If you make a game, it's a game. The only thing that matters if you get what you want out of it, whether that's sales, a portfolio piece, or just game that you and others enjoy. If you want to learn how to make engines and tools, or if your personal vision for making a game involves making the engine, that's fine. But pretending that making a game isn't so because it doesn't meet your personal desires for game development is retarded. And you really should ask yourself what you want out of a game and how doing what you're doing is accomplishing that because it's entirely possible to use learning as a form of procrastination that will hamper your ability to actually make something.

>>105786666
If I make tic tac toe by following a tutorial, am I a game dev? If I buy a project from the unity store and sell its demo as a game, am I a game dev?

>>105780632 (OP)
I agree. if you don't have the engine source, then you don't own your own game

>>105780717
>>105780754
>t.doesn't know what a game engine is

>>105786686
Again, what are you trying to achieve? What's the purpose? I don't find debating the identity of what makes a game dev. Did you make a game? Did making it meet the desires you had in setting out to make it?

>>105786614
> collision detection is asset flipping
holy fucking retard, batman.
>>105786686
> if i keep asking questions, will it make me look less fucking retarded?
apparently not. no. the damage is done and is amazingly severe.

>>105786708
To find a line, when did you make a game and where you didn't make a game.
In my mind it's clear you made a game when you designed it and wrote essential features for it that don't exist in generic engine like unity or UE.
If all features exist in a generic engine that means you didn't make a game.

>>105786377
>everything can run DirectX anyways
DirectX is limited to Microsoft Windows.
Haven't had any problems with my iGPU.

>>105783363
it's a shitty thesis in the first place, so this strawman is fitting, what's the point in knowing exact inner workings of every abstraction if you know and can test how it will behave, waste of time is what it is

>>105786731
>If all features exist in a generic engine that means you didn't make a game.
then most games that have been released since the days of atari 2600 aren't games according to your bewildering logic as many of them used engines developed in-house or licensed from middleware developers. you think people are just reinventing the wheel every time a new game comes out? get the fuck outta here.

>>105786731
>in my mind
In my mind you're just playing ego games to make yourself feel better than other people. What else would you call it? Someone produces a game, they made a game. It might be a shitty game, they might have done little more than glue premade things together, but they made a game. You might not be able to call them a game programmer and certainly not an engine dev, but they certainly made a game

>>105786339
Breathe through your nose.

>>105786766
>According to you things that predate generic engines aren't games
Uhuh, tell me more. Literal retard.
>>105786771
>You have opinions
Yes that's what we are doing, arguing about opinions.

>>105786766
It's just autistic people coping with their need to do everything themselves because they get more dopamine from tinkering than creating a game

>>105786377
>everything can run DirectX anyways
if by everything you mean literally only windows and xbox, sure

>>105786793
It's not a matter of opinion, it's factual that the end result of your actions is a game, then you made a game.

>>105786822
You are being autistic. You do not care about this topic and you think words don't have wiggle room. This isn't how anything works. The end result of murder is work to clean and bury you don't call mass murderers job creators.

>>105786301
Harry Potter 1-2 made on unreal engine. Portal made on source engine.

>>105780632 (OP)
>i'm good at one thing so that means i understand everything else too
>dunning–kruger the shitter post
Not only is comparing writing to game development an apples to oranges statement, and it's more like apples to broccoli really, writing is one of the biggest "built on the shoulders of giants" medium of human history. Not only are their writing techniques that are often used, many authors will base their writings on past writings. Nothing is new under the sun. Same with music too.
Notch is a fat fucking retarded grifter. Much like that kike that keeps crying about AI. He's only made one successful video game that isn't owned or maintained by him at all. I hope he kills himself. Hopefully choking on one of his many candies. The fat fucking kike.

>>105786301
Plenty of good games were made using a well used engine you fucking retard. Kill yourself, dunning kruger retarded nigger chink kike faggot nigger who is definitely a no coder nigger queer faggot chink kike.

>>105786849
No, it's that you're trying to conflate engine development with "game maker". Engine developer is a very specific term. A game programmer is not necessarily an engine developer and vice versa. Game developer is a more loose term. Game maker or making games is even more loose
>you don't call mass murderers job creators
Your argument is so weak you're bringing in dumb, irrelevant analogies that you can't even map to the points at hand

>>105786428
>You can make cool 2d games without any of that stuff
You know that even vectors and logic are math right. You can't make anything without math even in rpgm.

>>105786881
But there's a difference between using math intuitively and knowing it formally. The latter is definitely helpful, but plenty of people just use it intuitively and are fine.

>>105786894
sure, i would say you don't need to know linear algebra for 95% 2d and even 3d indie games, but you still need to have at least middle-school level math and a good understanding of your programming lang, otherwise you're gonna have miserable time debugging.

>>105786875
No I'm not.
I don't think you need to make an engine as a game dev but I do think you need to understand it. What is the game if it's not manipulation of the engine and if you don't understand what it is you are doing can you call yourself a game dev?
I too use templates and make my own tool on the web, guess what I don't call myself, we dev because I don't care how website structure works, I wouldn't be able to tell you how to publish your website without these tools.
I'm a tool dev with the web being just the place where I publish them.

>>105786956
>What is the game if it's not manipulation of the engine and if you don't understand what it is you are doing can you call yourself a game dev?

>>105786688
By that logic you could as well just use an open source engine like godot or raylib

>>105780632 (OP)
He's right.
Video games are about novelty.
Restricting yourself with a premade engine is in direct opposition of the above.

"Engine" is not the best framework for video games.
Instead (kinda unsurprisingly - it's pretty much the default for the rest of the programming world) there should exist high-level libraries for graphics/audio/input etc., somewhat standardized game data formats and tools (editors) for scene graphs, animations, worlds etc.

That way you would get the advantage of code reusability, but without strict restrictions put on you by the engine's prefered game design model.

>>105786894
Watch this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KPoeNZZ6H4s
Little details like that is what makes difference between a good game and slop.

>>105783363
>the point is understanding and controlling the game
The point of a game is to be fun to play, to have cool dragons and guns, to have an interesting story, to have beautiful art, to be funny.
Programming is only one aspect of the game. Notch says it's not difficult compared to making the rest of the game because he's a programmer who sucks at making the rest of the game.

>>105780632 (OP)
>authors don't use story templates
lol

>>105787011
See, you are being autistic and don't have any real world understanding. You are trying your hardest to say
>But word definition
You know how many definitions there are for this word? You really think taking a random definition is making your point better?

>>105783187
>he made a game, got lucky and sold out
>that's why he's more correct than anyone

>>105781938
holy based

>>105781938
so stale

>>105787077
Which one fits your own criteria? None of them do

>>105780632 (OP)
authors either use a typewriter or computer or pen and paper all of which they buy. this is the comparison to a game engine, not a template for the story. words in a book are comparable to assets in a game, not the game engine.

>>105787207
To bring out the capabilities or possibilities of
See, fits perfectly with the idea that game devs use engines. But the word you are looking for is
>Developer
Person or company who creates computer software

>>105780632 (OP)
Authors VERY OFTEN use tropes and material already in common use in their stories, and stories generally follow a template that has been around for centuries.
notch, what are you smoking?

>>105787045
>but without strict restrictions put on you by the engine's prefered game design model.
I bet you have no idea the variety of games running something like Unreal Engine.

>>105787247
>Person or company who creates computer software
yes, and asset flip template games are still computer software
so again, none fit your definition

>>105787263
i mean his whole thing can be discarded by just saying "post-modern". 135iq btw.

>>105787292
So much variety you can easily recognize UE game from a screenshot and if no then its specific stiff animation.

>>105787348
Ok, so you have no idea.
Glad we worked that out.

>>105780632 (OP)
He's kinda right. The selling point for "game engines" nowadays is the huge asset libraries. That's a straight analogue to a chef making frozen pizza

>>105780665
Or you know we can stop there, and then reject any argumenteum ad absurdum chudshit

>>105787361
Even checked the list of UE games on Wikipedia:
>first person shooters with typical UE graphics style and movement
>third person shooters with typical UE graphics style and movement
Wow. So, much variety.
The most original UE game that I know of is Rocket League and it's still very recognizably UE due to its janky UI and specific graphics.

>>105787400
>you can't make a counter argument that would make my argument look stupid
>why? because I don't want to lose the argument

>>105787413
Voices of the Void
Pseudoregalia
Exo One
Abiotic Factor
I don't think it matters, you'll just find a reason to keep thinking the same way, as most people do when provided evidence contrary to their beliefs

>>105787413
There's over 130 UE5 games and more than 500 UE4 games, and you checked the list in under 5 minutes.

>>105787428
>half-assed indie garbage no one plays
Who gives a fuck?

>>105787417
>why? because I dont want to lose.. why? because I dont want to lose..

There, destroyed your counterargument using argumentum ad infinitum recursum absurdum.
What a fun and productive use of time mr chud

>>105787455
name at least 4 recent AAA games that are original

>>105787493
>>why? because I dont want to lose.. why? because I dont want to lose..
that's pretty much your position, yes
but you lost before it started because you're a faggot

>>105787512
expedition 33

>>105787300
Again, this is an argument over opinion not autism

imagine claiming he made an engine without growing his silicon crystals first

>>105787586
are you saying that an asset flip game is not software? you're the one being autistic lmao. you're saying YOU HAVE TO make the engine or you didn't develop it, even if you made the system, design the gameplay and maps, even the assets. that's retarded, you're a retard and I'm glad you will not reproduce

>>105787512
BotW
TotK
Mario Odyssey.
Portal 2.

Of course they aren't fully novel (nothing is) but they have innovative elements as opposed to being completely derivative.

>>105787578
turnbased jrpg with quick time events, how original. the game is great but how the fuck is it original lmao.

>>105787646
>BotW
kinda? I'll give you it
>TotK
non in the slightest. it's basically the former + nuts n bolts
>Mario Odyssey.
>Portal 2.
I wouldn't consider Mario Odyssey original, and it's 8 years old
Portal 2 is ancient at this point

>>105787646
not him but you know portal 2 is 14 years old, right? he didn't specify what "recent" is, but i doubt it was that

>>105781938
kek manchild fatass

>>105787671
I'd go as far as 5 years ago. I said Exo One and that came out in 2021, all of the others were later I believe

>>105780632 (OP)
That's correct. BUT. There is a spectrum from rpgmaker to ue4 to raylib to opengl to compilers to hardware instructions. Do you want to be an X expert or a game dev, cause a game dev should be able to make a game with any tools
>>105780665
Are programming languages known for being opinionated about game design? And yes, if you use an array language to make a video game it's going to have compromises.
Nobody is claiming you didn't make the game, it's that your game is less interesting because it's just a remix of shit that is very easily accessable.
That being said, English prose has this problem too. https://www.orwellfoundation.com/the-orwell-foundation/orwell/essays-and-other-works/politics-and-the-english-language/

>>105787720
as some who is older than the average age on 4chan at this point, i'm all too familiar with the relativity of the term "recent". personally, i'm not even sure where i'd draw the line when it comes to a recent game. i've never even seen a ps4 before and that's like over 10 years old already.

>>105787555
literally your argument lmao
imagine btfoing yourself this hard you dont even see it

>>105787773
reductio ad absurdum is a valid form of argument, and just saying "I don't like it" is not a valid rebuttal
and if you want to insist that it is, I will insist that you are not a valid person

his game engine is dogshit

>>105787602
this

>>105787863
Maybe it wasn't about making music but friends me made along the way.

>>105787863
>t. cs nocoder trying to justify not writing any code
That's what it reads as.

>>105787603
I'm saying I'm not considering it game dev. Me personally. I'm saying what I personally think a game dev is.
You are being autistic.

>>105787947
show us your custom gpu driver. you are not making excuses not to write any code, are you?

>>105787971
that's a cop out, you wouldn't be in this thread if you really felt like it was just your opinion. you're just saying that because all of your arguments got destroyed

>>105787863
>Loops
It's called a sequence and it's one of the basic building blocks.
He got filtered by his own ignorance

>>105780632 (OP)
Unless you're going to publish and market your game yourself you're going to need a publisher. You're going to have a much harder time finding a publisher if your game was hacked together with mystery frameworks and code than if you used one of the top 10 or so game engines. Publishers already have teams that know how these engines work. No Publisher wants to invest money into a product that only 1 fucking asshole understands at the moment. You just end up being a liability.

>>105787982
What do you mean. Can you explain this to me.
>you wouldn't be in this thread if you really felt like it was just your opinion
Please, I want to understand your thought process.

>>105780632 (OP)
How exactly is a game like R.E.P.O a "remix" of things that already exist in unity? It takes inspiration from lethal company, It uses PUN for networking, does it prevent the game from being entirely different. Sure I guess, in some weird hypothetical, but in practice there is still an infinite space to explore even when you are bottlenecked at every point. It's why linux and shell are still used. I'll take simplicity (even if it makes security impossible) with all the tools I want over complexity with hand made tools.

>>105787976
If you want something unique at your current level up then you have to go a level down. There the only substitute is getting in early on some new tool, which just makes you a poser (bonus points if you then get mad at people "copying you" cause their games are similar.)

>>105787993
Because you've spent time an energy to argue these points. To say that you're not trying to convince other people of it is dishonest

>>105788038
making a game with general purpose engine is already one level down.

>>105788038
That's nonsense, I can think of several ideas I have that nobody else has done before and I could do in a premade engine

>>105788068
Are you stupid? No genuinely.
Do you think my opinion is some monolith that cannot be changed?
Why I entered this thread is because it was a fun topic and I like to argue and get challenged, something you failed to do.

>>105788080
I defeated all your arguments, the only thing I couldn't do is defeat your ego which is the only thing preventing you from realizing it

>>105788070
No, because tons of people have already done it. Just browse itch and steamdb before contributing to the dumpster fire.
>>105788073
I guarantee you, you cannot.
>inb4 R.E.P.O
If you want to go a level down in art and design your own animatronic characters to put in game that already exists so it sell well then that's fine, but you didn't contribute to the pool of game ideas.

>>105788125
>No, because tons of people have already done it.
just make an original game? it has nothing to do with using an engine, unless it's extremely specialized. general purpose engines allow you to make 99.9% of games you can think of.

>>105788125
>I guarantee you, you cannot.
show us your own work then
>but you didn't contribute to the pool of game ideas
the post hoc rationalization mental gymnastics you will go through to not admit your stance is based on little more then vibes is hilarious

>>105788090
You didn't, you were screeching artistically about shit nobody gives a shit about.
I don't care what words mean I care about people who can explain their position and explain why their position is superior.

>>105788152
Games do not appear fully formed in your head on day 1. It's a process, one that is continully molded by requirements and tooling as well as thoughts. The more your tooling is the same as some other guys the more likely you are to come up with the same solution.
Take UNIX for example, most people will write the same correct solution, but add in browns and you start getting strange solutions, but they aren't creative it's just adding complexity to the proper solution. And of course there are entire classes of problems that the system wasn't designed to handle and you must create your own tooling if you want to handle them.

>>105788257
You lost, I won
Forever

notch made minecraft and became a billionaire, you've have been on the internet your entire life and done what?

As a gamer, each engine has a different feel to it so he's not completely wrong.

>>105783187
If you want to take his advice find something niche to steal from and make popular like he did to infiniminer.

Don't even bother writing anything original, just steal it wholesale and add like idk monsters and shit. That's what he did and literally nobody called him out on it.

>>105788574
Well I'm not obese and bald for one

>>105780632 (OP)
His game was a poorly written, bug ridden copy of another game, that steadily got worse every single time he was involved in development. Who does he think he is?

>>105788574
its people made him billionaire

>>105788661
its called soul and it made him a billion dollars. notch making game developers cry in his reply is white behavior, i hope all game developers suffer and we bring back crunch culture. make these niggers work crack that whip

>>105786141
Just run it in a VM. Optimze the OS for VM. Optimze the game for OS. Write if all in binary.

>>105785861
His game uses a camera, which Hideo Kojima invented.

>>105788857
Hideo Kojima invented film and bubble butts

>>105788565
Arguments don't have winners or losers. You having this perspective is already showing you are Mr.autismo

The games industry was better gatekept back when everyone had to write their own engine for their game. Streamlining the process made it easier for midwits and jeets to flood in and corrupt it.

>>105780632 (OP)
He is obviously wrong but he could actually make some decent points if he tried.
>>105781938
>all burger candy

>>105787232
>this is the comparison to a game engine
no, it's a comparison to the compiler toolchain
>not a template for the story
it literally is

>>105780632 (OP)
But it's not about making an engine.
It's about making money.

>>105789028
kys, even if you're joking

>>105780632 (OP)

This might end your thread but...

Bad take from Notch considering he used LWJGL + Java for Minecraft, which packs in quite a few engine-like features (lots of OpenGL helpers, instant multi-platform).

LWJGL is higher level than SDL, closer to a Raylib for Java.

Minecraft mostly started as a 3D array of cubes using the OpenGL procedural pipeline in LWJGL.

I competed in Ludum Dares with Notch before Minecraft was a thing, so I remember the technology quite vividly.

>>105789130
to add onto this: you bet your ass Notch would have used Unreal or Unity if it was more mature at the time. Both were just super immature or non usable back in the day.

>>105789168
Unreal is from 1998.

>>105789226
Yeah, try getting a license for it. Also, you think the learning material is bad now? Non existant back then.

At the time, Java + LWJGL was the easy path.

>>105780632 (OP)
>Minecraft purely rides on the idea
>works DESPITE Notch's engine, not because of it (it was a buggy laggy piece of shit and Notch himself said he had no idea what he was doing)
>now is making a new game
>simple 3D dungeon crawler
>1bn dollars in the bank
>can dedicate himself to the game 24/7
>can dedicate more time than a NEET if he wants to (can hire a cook, maid, etc to do even basic shit for him)
>has a team of developers
>could hire world-class talent for years in any field he needs without even putting a dent in his money pile
Another retard who lucked out and then goes off telling others about how great he is. Much like >>105780754 with Braid, Notch was extremely lucky with Minecraft, he released a barely functional barebones piece of shit that just happened to land at the right time. He was even more lucky that the Infiniminer dev had given up months/years earlier, otherwise Notch would just be a fat neckbeard crabbing on /agdg/.

personally I think I will start designing my own sprite and tile-based video hardware to avoid having much of an engine beside DMA

Is Chris Sawyer still the GOAT of lone wolf game dev?

>codes all of RollerCoaster Tycoon from scratch using Assembly

>>105789241
Wheel of Time licensed the Unreal Engine back in 1999.

>>105780632 (OP)
>twitter screenshot
yep, I'm on /g/

>>105787025
Raylib is not an engine strictly speaking. It's a framework.

>>105783363
/thread

>>105786149
is this the complete list? This is totally reasonable and even minimal. libdl, libm, libc and shit like that are pretty much a given, half of those are xlib modules...

>>105781938
tacky and clueless but im lying if i said i wasnt envious of that wealth

>>105786377
>>105786369
wrong shut the fuck up

>>105780632 (OP)
What a retarded analogy. What he meant to say was:
>Authors always make their own paper and pen before they start writing

>>105780754
oh he made a programming language? I'd love to try it :^)

>>105790342
>This is totally reasonable and even minimal.
No, it's fucking not. Good game must be written with SDL where SDL is taking care of everything else.

>>105784010
i made a couple rudimentary games in QBasic over 20 years ago. they are total shit but i banged them out in a couple days.

>>105789268
bitch all you want but the market is the final arbiter. if you fail in the market you fail in life.
notch is a billionaire because he made a stupid block game. that is called winning. notch won bigly.

>>105790386
I don't understand are you arguing that SDL is bad or what?

>>105790440
I'm arguing that developers should use only SDL and its APIs and not try to implement platform native windowing and audio interfaces themselves.

Make a game but don't use AI. That's the only thing that matters to me.

>>105790461
here's an ldd of my VERY minimal C application which ONLY links SDL3...

>>105790470
All programmers use AI now.

>>105790520
Dude you fucked up somewhere

>>105790528
I've tried to use AI (chatgpt, claude and gemini) and it has never even 1 single time actually helped with a problem so far...

>>105790520
>>105790536
Actually you might now fucking up somewhere, maybe you should dynamic loading SDL instead of dynamically linking

>>105790536
-lm and -lSDL3 are the only linked libraries my dude, everything else is done from scratch with just C.

>>105790593
all of the includes, you can see every source file in the tabs there too

>>105789317
He's close but Zaachwry Bath is ultimately the winner for being not only one of the best developers, but also designers in the history of the industry. And he has ethics and personally provides support to customers in addition to not fucking them over.

>>105790614
>Zachary Barth*
That wasn't very nice of you to intercept my post and typo his name Notch.

>>105780632 (OP)
> it's not difficult
This retarded coded a piece of shit in Java. He has absolutely no idea what it takes to make a top tier game engine.

>>105790590
I'm on void linux and it's totally going to shit the way everything straight up doesn't fucking work. If I compile SDL3 from source and install it myself it doesn't work but the void packages are all fucked up too. Might have to install some other bullshit, been using void for nearly a decade on a bunch of different machines but it's getting to the point where it's just way too much of a compromise and gets in my way.

>>105781653
>Didn't write your game in assembly to run directly on hardware after boot.
You did not make the game

>>105782304
This. Indie devs should all shut the fuck up.

>>105790655
Just stick to static linking. Dynamic link is overrated gay

>>105790593
you have to disable/enable the different modules in your cmake file

>>105780632 (OP)
well to be fair the language IS the story template. You can only go as far as the language allows you to. Which is why we had movements like Literary Creationism.

>>105781938
>2014

>>105781938

as if he needs more calories

irony is /v/ helped minecraft take off originally

notch would be just a normal indie shmuck without 4chan

>>105791256
not really. he barely posted here. his thread on tigsource started it all.

>>105780632 (OP)
But that's exactly what authors do

>>105791416
he used to get us to play that sandbox only place blocks to make art early iteration a lot, but I would say that didn't really help it take off yeah

>>105790423
And does that mean his opinions have more merit?

Bunch of cope in this thread. He is right, if you can't code a game engine your just a jeet.

Based Notch coding with 0 dependencies

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s2yOF4jDgNU

There's a reason why people make a difference between programmer and game dev. The former will likely refactor the engine a gorillon times and take 6 years to make a fucking rogue clone, the latter's code will have enough spaghetti to feed Italy for years but is more likely to release a game.

I normally hate Twitter screenshot threads, but this one buttblasted a lot of software fags here so I like it. Hey niggers, you all fucking suck at programming and your bullshit languages and frameworks are all bloatware. Whatever project you're working on, stop and re-write it in C. If you can't do that, you're no better than a pajeet.

>t. hardware aficionado

>>105790614
>>105790628

I was going to say I have never heard of this kind of ethnicity in my entire life

>>105791849
>enough spaghetti to feed Italy for years
kek

A real chad uses Unreal but modifies it at a low level to do what he needs it to do.

>>105780632 (OP)
He kinda has a point. In the past, every studio would use their own engine for their games, giving them a distinct look and feel. Now, everything is in UE and looks visually clean, but totally void of an individual fingerprint. It's sad to see.

>>105780632 (OP)
>want to make game
>use unreal engine
>someone did all the heavy lifting already
>all I have to do is drag nodes to blueprints
>download assets for free online
>release game
>game goes viral and makes millions
>tranny who spent the last 5 years making their own game engine for their 2d rogue-like dungeon crawler that still hasn't released seethes

I've seen this happen so many times with all those simulators and streamer games that go viral for a month. If you're making games you have to understand your customer. They want a game that somewhat works, has a fun loop to keep their dopamine peaked, and is multiplayer/coop. Anything else is a waste of time if your goal is to make money.

>>105791676
>with 0 dependencies
>85MB java 1.6
Pick one.

Whole thread of retards who think that you need a whole Unity/Unreal clone if you make a game without engine.

Shows how much they know about game programming.

You can code an FPS in 200-300 lines (a couple of hours) in Raylib. You will not have to upgrade, you will note have engine runtime, you will not be vendor-locked on a shitty corporation.

>>105780632 (OP)

>>105792615
Dude I tried building stuff from scratch from raylib and it's fucking awful.

You will build a fucking child's toy/POC after 2 months of grinding. That framework doesn't even have a way to load an .obj models. You have to use other dependencies or write yours from scratch.

I can tell you've never built anything serious.

>>105780632 (OP)
>if they can't make their own game engine, they are not programmers
games are primarily about game design, not programming. <0.1% of gaymers care whether your game engine's hash table uses linear probing or cuckoo hashing. 90% will care about the game being fun

>>105780632 (OP)
I'm not even coding anymore. AI does everything for me and I just manage it

>>105790423
the point is that he won /despite/ his still. hence we call it "lucky"

>>105780632 (OP)
a game engine is better represented as an automator of certain tasks, not as a game design template... it's like saying code you write isn't legitimate because the language isn't low level enough. bad comparison and argument. i have respect for devs that write their own but Jeff Vogel OG indie says he'd never want to do it again because it was such a pain in the ass.

>>105780632 (OP)
ive been saying this for years
why you need a rendering engine for example? modern graphics apis are fucking easy and almost engines themselves

just use a fucking library and do stuff

>just reinvent basic shit literal millions of people before you have
so fun to code loading PNGs, OBJs, shaders and basic platform glue for the 100th time. you elitist retards are obviously new if you think wasting time like that somehow makes you better.

>>105780632 (OP)
>just make your own 3D rasterizer bro
has this retard ever actually tried making one? there is no higher level of geometry than what is required for that shit. you have to be a math god to even attempt it.

>>105798072
Projective geometry isn't that hard, bro
Doing it efficiently might be

>>105798072
>there is no higher level of geometry than what is required for that shit. you have to be a math god to even attempt it.
lmao, it's all basic ass linear algebra 101.

>>105780632 (OP)
>Make Pizza *from scratch*
>you didn't grow the grain
>you didn't breed the cattle
Even when you do
>you didn't painstakingly evolve the corn to be nutritious and bountiful
>you didn't breed the perfect meat cattle
You aren't a Chef.

>>105780632 (OP)
>writers should plant their own trees, make their own wood, produce their own paper and print their own books

>>105792430
>game goes viral
You don't have the connections to make a game go viral so this is irrelevant.

>>105781924
>or do you want to make something that rivals the great big games
and this mentality is why the AAA industry is cranking out so many shit game lately
the future is indie, just like how many important things were made by an autist somewhere in his basement

>>105783960
ah, so he's a shitware maker who essentially won a lottery and now he thinks he's a master genius or something

>>105783363
is there a way to filter these pseudo-intellectual posts?
what's next? you have to write entire language to make software?

So much butthurt caused. Notch is based as fuck.

>>105781695
I'm a cumburper, so obviously I write in Swift and Metal.

>>105786301
do you smelt iron and build your own toolkit everytime you assemble something?

>>105798346
Minecraft is hardly shitware. but yeah, he had won a lottery. it was much easier back in the early 2010s too. basically, the golden age of indie games. I remember the general optimism in gamedev back then, with everyone scrambling to make it on Steam and mobile with their little game. good times.

>>105786614
if you use premade crayons, are you really drawing? or are you just color-flipping?
that's how retarded you are

>>105787455
>reeeeee!!! the popular ones are too generics!!!!
>reeeeee!!! the niches one are too niche!!!!!
you do know why generic games are popular, right?

>>105791676
>uses poopjeet language
>call oghers jeet
like pottery

>>105780665
If you're a cook you should know how to make a good meal from scratch. You don't have to know how to build a stove, how electricity works and how to make a steel pot.
You really have to act willfully retarded not to understand the core sentiment behind his post. You may not agree with him but come on, don't be a retard about it.

>>105787428
>Voices of the Void
I like how this (intentionally) looks like a Source, Unity and Unreal game at the same time.

>>105798381
we know it's you, lardass
stop making thread to suck your own dick, hamplanet

Is a B average in linear algebra and calc good enough to wrap my head around making an engine?

>>105798606
notch is a pseudo intellectual retard who basically won a lottery and think himself a genius, stop sucking his dick
if gordon ramsey start saying that you're not a real cook if you didn't make your own cookware, you would call him a retard too

>>105798619
ok tranny

>>105780632 (OP)

>>105798707
nodev

>>105798630
I taught myself linear algebra and know basically no calc and I managed to write something.

>>105787665
>I wouldn't consider Mario Odyssey original, and it's 8 years old
Oh god.

>>105798630
If you understand basic 4 dimensional vector calculations you should be fine.

>>105798707
a tranny would have inhaled the fatty sausage the moment you showed up, lardass
like attracts like afterall