Thread 106401688

That's right. Be completely devoted to programming 24/7 or we'll just hire an Indian.

>treat it like a craft

The fucking cognitive dissonance lmfao. "Treat it like a craft" when we're interviewing you, but then turn it into a slopmonkey factory assembly line once we start working. Faggots

lmao

>>106401688 (OP)
An expectation of skill is fine. The problem is that the White applicant needs to be 10x better than the average White CS grad to justify a reasonable first-world income, whereas they don't care how dogshit the p*jeet is cuz they'll just pay him $5/hr regardless while they rake in the money by making empty promises to VC kikes.

>>106401688 (OP)
I am not even a programmer and I am shaking my head.

>>106401703
Kek, this

>>106401688 (OP)
>half assed side projects
I have over 200 of them in varying degrees of accomplishment, so where is my 6 figure job?
I've got every flavor of the language you can ask for Rust, C, C++, Odin, Zig, C#, JS, TS, Web stuff. I've got hobby os, hobby database, hobby compiler, distributed consensus algorithms, and multiple websites, websites that work, websites that suck, websites that I stopped working within 2 days of starting the project, AI based website.
Why the fuck nobody wants to interview me?

>Graduates
>0 career experience
Bruh

They are right and you know it.

The only people who disagree are posers who were never passionate about programming and just went there because money was good at that time.

>>106401741
What kind of companies do you apply to?
Tried to look into remote work and/or middle sized companies?

>>106401688 (OP)
Coding is a art? Like trolling?

There's nothing to craft. You are simply giving instructions to a computer.
I can read x86 assembly if it's required, would I do it for fun ? Never.

>>106401756
Every fucking company wants some level of experience, and I have got none.
I've felt the remote market to be even worse right now.

>>106401746
I mean, 23 yo Indian graduates have 30 years of career experience, why can't you, yt boi?

>>106401758
>Coding is a art? Like trolling?
Yes. exactly like trolling, I use my computer, it does weird shit I never asked I feel trolled each time.

>>106401747

They're not because they aren't genuine. They themselves don't treat it like a patient craft. They just want a humiliation ritual. The moment they hire you they will be pressing for "deliverables" and groaning the moment you mention tech debt, refactoring, design discussions.

>>106401763
than you must become an anons apprentice.

the market blew up like a decade ago
nobody is "hiring"

>>106401747
Yes of course, if you go out to hire a civil engineer you would also expect him to come to the interview with his portfolio of half-finished designs of random bridges across the country, right? I mean what civil engineer worth his salt doesn't spend his free time designing random bridges that nobody is paying him for?

>>106401688 (OP)
why would they post their "half assed side project" publicly?
>walk into any artist's house there are unfinished paintings, sketched
yes, we have this on private or on a disk
such a stupid bitch

>>106401741
What are your pronouns

>>106401893
I got none you faggot

>>106401957
Not even he/him? what are you, an asexual blob?

>>106401864
If they are actually passionate about it, yeah. Of course unlike an artist, musician or a programmer, engineering projects are much harder to do in full scale on your own, but you can still tinker with tangent projects.
Even I, when I was a kid before I learned about programming, I thought I want to be an engineer and so I would sketch various pulley systems I have seen in the wild trying to understand them, design gears mechanisms, build robots from basic electronic components etc. If I didn't move to programming I would probably spent all my teenage days designing and building stuff.

>>106401885
It's not really rare for artists to upload sketches of works they never went around finishing. They often even ask people which work would they like to see finish.

>106401961
I don't want to play no games with you nigger

>>106401966
Well, I wanted to become a manga artist and I'm entitled to the same job opportunities as you.

Coding isn't a hobby anymore.

>>106401688 (OP)
>"half assed projects are better than nothing"
we can tell you think like that

>>106401741
Do you have experience? My company is hiring for a Sr. software engineer. $140,000 - $180,000. The position is listed as "Boston" which doesn't make sense because we don't have an office in Boston. My boss told me they have to put a real city on the job postings otherwise you get a million 3rd worlders applying. Half the team is remote at this point

>>106401688 (OP)
Every fucking time.

>>106401688 (OP)
Indians are why Microshit Winjeet is where it is... unsuable spyware.

>>106401893
ret/ard

>>106401957
That's why nobody is hiring you. Put a "(he/they)" on your resume and the hr retards will start calling

>>106401688 (OP)
They aren't asking you to be completely devoted to programming, just to have a fucking indication that you develop software and don't just do academic CS shit. If you can't show ANY work after years and years of ... study? Work? What's the point of hiring you? There's already too many people to interview

>>106401741
But do you know some peculiar stupid soft that is close and nobody actually knows about it only that specific 5 companies that use it and it's basically impossible to learn outside of that company ? If you don't then they won't hire you. That's the state of industry.

>>106401688 (OP)
unironically yes, programming is closer to art than to engineering

>>106402237

When I work I'm working, on massive codebases that I can't share with you without violating American law. Not playing with toys on the side.

>>106402160
Well you are. And if you were drawing your own manga for a while, I am sure you have much much higher chance of becoming one than me.

>>106401688 (OP)
By the way, this guy is offering a salary of $80k and requiring his employees to live in San Francisco and work in the office.

>>106401741
>I've got every flavor of the language you can ask for Rust, C, C++, Odin, Zig

The problem is that you have projects in Rust and Zig, so you get automatically rejected because you're shouting "i am a tranny" to the world.

>>106402291
This.
I wouldn't put Rust there even if they asked me it's basically self-shaming at this point.

>>106402259
You don't need to share any database on your resume, you can just write "I worked at X and were responsible for Y and doing Z" This will work as well if not better than having just a portfolio.
OP and the anon you are replying to are talking about people who have neither career experience nor personal projects.

>>106401688 (OP)

In some way, they are right.

So many people enter this path because they want "money", they ultimately suck at their job, they create piece of shit systems. You can easily identify these people because they only know one programming language and they have zero side projects or they have zero libraries written by them or zero contributions to open source libs.

The sooner these people are out of the job marketplace, the lower the supply will be and it will be good for us, the sage ninja unicorn code artisans.

>>106402315

Yes anon that's called a "resume" and part of the "interview"

>>106402291
>>106402308
Based on what?

I had an interview about month ago and the guy who was reviewing me noticed my Rust projects and we discussed them for a while even though this had nothing to do with the position I was applying to. They just seemed interesting to him.

>>106402354
Anon that interviewer was probably gay or crypto currency startup enjoyer, Rust is objectively cancer.

>>106402342
So?
I am just saying that you do not need "share massive codebases" like you implied you had to. You don't even need to share any secrets from hobby projects if they are not FOSS for some reason. It's literally just about being able to prove that you can do shit and not just did some CS math in your collage and called it a day.

>>106402369
Why are you so obsessed with sexuality of random strangers wtf

Let me guess, an American?

>>106401957
>>106402235
Can confirm this works

>>106401961
umm, actually, gender (as represented by pronouns, mine are xir/xem) and sexuality are two different things?
yikes
let's unpack this

>>106402386

They do that anon, it's called leetcode and coding tests. They aren't going to forego those just because you shared some hobby projects. It's implied in your work history that you did engineering as an engineer...lol. The tweet is just catty bitches and a roundabout way of saying they just want to hire Indians.

>>106401688 (OP)
good morning
wypipo need to do the needful if they want to be employable
get saarpilled

>>106402431
>OP and the anon you are replying to are talking about people who have neither career experience nor personal projects.
>It's implied in your work history that you did engineering as an engineer
Blind or retarded?

>>106402457

There is more discussion going on in the thread and the bitch who replied wasn't just talking about new grads

>spend 4-5 years and $150,000 getting an audited certification from a regulated institution that you are able to program and engineer
>hmmm... that's not quite enough. Got any hobby toys we could see that prove you care more about coding than I do, the ruthless profiteering businessman?

>>106402215
>85 people
Surely he has enough jeets to fill the room with

>>106402486
Problem is a lot a retards graduate with CS degrees. a CS degree really doesn't tell you much about a candidate. I've met a lot of recent CS grads who couldn't code

>>106401688 (OP)
>CS grads with 0 experience
No shit retard, they're new grads
>Just work for free bro!
Look, I get that internships are a must-have, and you should demonstrate what you're learning outside of the classroom ideally, but these retards are refusing to hire new graduates because they haven't been hired already? What sense does that make?
You know how you get senior devs? You TRAIN junior devs. Nobody is going to apply for a junior dev job with 10 years of experience doing mission-critical work, why would they? The real thing is they ask all this shit of American students and then go on to hire an Indian that also has no experience or projects, but also a fake degree.

>>106402486
150k for any degree short of medical school is a waste of money. Colleges make CS too easy and all my assignments weren’t event looked at, I got 100% for just turning something in that compiled and I went to a top 25 school. Maybe MIT would have been better

>>106402593
If you have a computer science degree and no hobby projects then you are not a programmer. You are just a computer scientist.

I like programming, but the idea that I'm expected to dedicate time outside of work to "keep up with the industry", or learn the latest meme framework du jour, is absolutely retarded. Imagine not hiring a contractor with decades of experience getting jobs done on time and on budget because he doesn't hang drywall for fun outside of work, or the tools he uses are old or slightly different than the tools you use. The industry is so backwards it's comical.

>>106402775
I agree with your sentiment, my point is just that this standard is only held for hiring citizens, they aren't replacing you with Indians that contribute to FOSS projects either.

>>106402842
>Yes, you have all the right credentials and job experience for our plumbing position
>But do you do any plumbing projects outside of work?
>No? then I'm afraid you're not what we're looking for

>>106401688 (OP)
Graduates with no experience and no side project is the norm in pretty much every other fields.

>>106402564
i started programming at 10 but dont have a cs degree
what does that make me?

>>106401688 (OP)
>post half assed side projects
still don't get the job or interview

Imagine getting into debt for school to gain experience, only to be rejected. However, the moment saar and AI become exceptionally skilled, they are immediately hired.

Your options are twofold: you can be paid a low salary with extensive experience, or you can be replaced by saar or AI.

>>106402842
The industry is not going to wait for you. If you can only use technologies that no one has been using for 20 years then you are limiting yourself only to work in legacy projects.
>The industry is so backwards it's comical.
Do you consider medicine backwards too since doctors are expected to keep up with modern drugs, equipment and techniques?

>>106402984
You're missing the point. If you have demonstrable experience in the relevant languages, especially professional experience, you shouldn't need a github full of half-assed sideprojects written in whatever meme language is popular on reddit today. You also aren't a doctor, you're probably making a CRUD app in JavaScript or Python or some shit.

>>106401688 (OP)
>spend your whole time programming projects and studying
>get replaced by a jeet or AI
"Umm you should have diversified your skills, go to learn a trade chud, your knowledge is useless now"
>you spend the exact amount of time to get the job done
>get replaced by a jeet or AI
"You should have worked harder, chud, Rajesh does the same thing for 1 USD per hour."
There's no winning movement.

>>106401688 (OP)
>apply for junior position
>get asked how much experience I have
Well, I...

>>106401741
Your problem is that your projects are too broad, cover too many areas, which signal to the employer that you're high maintenance.
Exotic languages/frameworks signal that you'll wreak havoc in the development pipeline instead of beating the drum and delivering results.
Do only one thing and do it well. And pretend you have no other hobbies and that your raison d'etre is to work. C suite is rife with dark triad types these days that fall head over heels for this shit.

>>106402922
A real cool fella

>>106401741
Sorry, we uh just filled the position. But we'll keep your name on our list in case we find an opening! :^)

>>106401747
By this logic doctors should do vivisections on lab rats in their spare time, just for practice, and nuclear physicists should build reactors in their basement as a "side project".

>>106401987
she talked about the sketches the artist have in their study
programmer's computer is his study
this is the same thing, but she expects software to be published
why would anyone publish software that is "half assed"?
this is just retarded

>>106403468
>wombman
>retarded
sad
many such cases

>>106401688 (OP)
both of them are bots
you can tell by the blue checkmark

>>106401703
fpbp

been a while since I've seen one of those

Everything is a race to the bottom. The people who are racing to the bottom are the issue, while the people who run the companies and have the money to sustain the business are benefiting. If you’re not making a software company now, you’re out of luck.

>>106401688 (OP)
If you're going to hire a 1xr, you might as well hire the cheapest one on the market.

>>106401688 (OP)
>Ive never seen anything like it
>2025
to be expected
zoomers don't have hobbies or interests they are zombies that have little to no creativity or interests. Those unis are churning out robots, only these robots don't even work, let alone think. The only exceptions are the autistic ones who are unemployable for other reasons.

Just get gud at cp/leetcode

>>106401688 (OP)
>>106401893
Lets Go / Brandon

>>106402277
Isn't 80K in SA below poverty threshold?

The whole idea is to reject the few candidates they interview so they can get on with hiring the H1Bs corporate demands.

MS fired 9000 people in the US just recently while simultaneously applying to hire 14000 H1Bs.

>none of the people who would do the job for $22,500 were qualified
>need to get h1b

>>106401688 (OP)
I'll show you my craft when you treat hiring like a craft.

>>106401688 (OP)
Whats the matter faggot, dont like writing code? You afraid of computers?

>>106401688 (OP)
>we don't hire anyone without career experience
t.the entire industry looking for an excuse to reject white men

>>106403028
>You're missing the point. If you have demonstrable experience in the relevant languages, especially professional experience
The post in OP literally says: "0 career experience, 0 side projects"
If you have professional experience then you have career experience.

>>106403085
Medicine is not a craft. Majority of the challenge in becoming a doctor is studying and you are expected to study to keep up with new drugs, practices, etc.
On the other hand, becoming a programmer is just practice. There is little you can learn from books alone.

>wont hire graduate because he doesnt have career experience
Lol

>>106403468
>why would anyone publish software that is "half assed"?
Because there is no reason not to. For me, making a repo is usually the first step when making a new project.
Also a half assed software is called a tech demo/prototype.

>>106405899
The OP says that about new graduates, it's like denying people med school residencies because they have no experience.

>>106401688 (OP)
>kids who just started don't have any experience or accomplishments to their names
You don't say.

>>106401688 (OP)
>>106402277
>Treat it like a craft or we won't hire you
>Look inside
>Raindrop dot another indian: AI janny that cleans up after other AI
>Eighty thousand dollars a year to live in the deepest, coldest pits of Satan's very cold hell
I'm secondhand embarrassed just reading this shit, I cannot imagine how embarrassing it must be to write it and put it on twitter for everyone to see.

I have tons of high quality side projects and experience working as a software engineer. I won't even apply to SWE jobs these days because I hate midwits and I don't want to work with Indians. Simple as.

>>106401688 (OP)
>contract: we own everything you write ever tm
That's the real answer they want side projects so they can steal peoples shit.

>he can't compete with a third worlder
What does that say about you?

>>106401703
the fp always is the bp

>>106401688 (OP)
Or you could just move to a third world country and live like a king if you're willing to learn the local language and speak English fluently.

>>106401688 (OP)
https://www.jobs.now/
I filled out 385 applications
that's possibly 385 less jeets in my country

THESE PEOPLE ARE JUST LOOKING FOR PEOPLE TO TAKE ADVANTAGE / SCAM.
GIVE EM NOTHING.
REMEBER THE SIGNS.
FAILED TECH CEO / STARTUPS ETC.

is there any "industry" that huffs its own farts more then programming? i've never met a cooooder that wasn't a pretentious retard insisting they're the only people keeping the global economy going (when really they are the ones who make it make the least sense)

>>106402277
80 to 200k is an INSANE range

>>106409041
military, politics, law
elon did both

>>106401688 (OP)
I was recently given a junior at my job to start training. It's been 2 months and I still have to explain to him to double check all the merge conflicts in his branch because he'll just put it in production. The mythical man month, more people on a programming team just makes the entire team slower if the programmers are stupid. And you would actually be surprised how rare programmers are, as opposed to glue coders that can't make a todo app without 50 dependencies.

>>106409048
There's three parts to this.
1. They're legally required to post a salary range.
2. The high end is to maximize the quantity and quality of applicants.
3. The low end is what you're actually getting. If you refuse, they get an H1b.

>>106409052
military has Unwarranted Self Importance but isn't really "fart-huffing"

politics and law i will agree with though.

>>106409053
>complain for decades that AIEEEE THESE NOOBS DONT USE OUR WYSIWYG STACK AND DONT UNDERSTAND GIT!!!!
>wonder why hiring is now biased towards people who only know apt-get and lie

>>106402160
No you're not? I graduated in a 3rd world shit hole it would've been absurd to suggest I'm entitled to the same job opportunities as a graduate in silicon valley.

>>106401688 (OP)
Unfortunately, I'm trapped in this industry that unlike law or medicine despises experience, and switching careers would fuck up my portfolio for years. I hate what it's become, but the doors to the alternatives closed years ago or those alternatives are just dogshit (muh trades where you grind for 5-8 years to make less than a junior).

>>106401741
You can't get past the HR wall.
You would need to connect with someone within first and demonstrate some value or potential to them.
HR's hobby is keeping people like you out.
There's probably a whole gold mine of reasonably decent and/or potentially decent western talent out there that is essentially persona non-grata because they don't tick whatever flavor of the month HR is filtering for.
Someone tell me I'm wrong.
I want to be wrong.

>>106401741
Did you go to a T20 undergrad?
Did you work in FAGMAN at some point?
Did you work in some other Big Tech, or a F500 at some point?

If the answer to any of those is "No", you are presumed to be unreliable retard.

>>106401688 (OP)
>why aren't you slaving for me

The reality is that getting a job is a competition and you need to be better than the other people to get the job. Why is someone going to hire you over someone else? These jobs get filled with or without you.

>>106401688 (OP)
>most are cs graduates
>”WHERES YOUR WORK EXPERIENCE?!?!?”
Uh I just graduated.

>>106409117
if getting a job means slaving then that's what it entails. The universe doesn't revolve around you not wanting to do that. You can bitch all you want but the world moves on without you.

>>106409048
They make you settle for 80k to mentally mog you and set up your total subordination. From here they know you will cuck and settle for whatever terms they put in front of you. If you resist then you're out the door.

>>106409145
t. kike that wants slaves

>>106409142
they don't mean CS experience. They just want to see what other jobs you've had even if they don't involve coding. If you've never worked before then they have 0 idea what kind of person you will be.

>>106403047
Just count years in uni as experience anon, all of a sudden you have "3 years experience but I would only really say 2 years of actual hardcore programming experience". When I was asked if I knew the companies tech stack I said "in my opinion good programmers don't really think in terms of programming languages they think in terms of data structures and just type it out in whatever language they get". I got my offer letter the next day with comments like "you're really good in interviews".

>>106409107
I have 12 years experience and have worked at two of the Mag7.

Yet I am having terrible luck getting hired from feb to now I have applied well over a hundred times. I’ve been rejected 7 times I even received an email that one job was gonna make me an offer and they completely ghosted me the recruiter even told me they would find out why and they too ghosted me.

One place they even hired someone over me with one year experience. I just don’t understand.

>>106409155
> they have 0 idea what kind of person you will be.
Hi HR tranny. They won’t have an idea either if I put in companies as well. Or do you mean “wow look he changed jobs every 5 years he’s a job hopper sorry can’t hire!!!”

>>106409154
go complain on 4chan everyday and don't do what they want. See how far that gets you. My point is you have 0 leverage and nobody cares about you. You either do what they want or you get left behind jobless.

>>106409155
yes anon im sure palantir is very interested in your experience working at subway and "freelancing" via grindr to get through college

>>106409096
There are just too many applicants. It's a paradox of choice situation. They keep looking for someone better. It's a lot like how women never want to settle down and keep themselves in the dating market hoping for more.

You make it deep into the interview process, get rejected either in the final round or the penultimate round for a “candidate whose experience more closely aligns with requirements”, and then see the same job being posted again after a week or so.

I have seen this happen so many times now, where I received feedback on how I was a great candidate but they had found someone slightly better. Then why don’t you just interview me again when you repost the job? It just means your “perfect candidate” turned you down/didn’t really exist. If I was good enough to make it through multiple stages of your convoluted, exhausting process, maybe I am good enough to do the job as well.

>>106409166
if you hire someone who never worked before, you risk them being an over-entitled piece of shit who will never learn shit and always call in sick if he doesn't feel like going into work. If someone has had jobs before then you have some idea that they will not be lazy.

>>106401703
>yes I am truly passionate about assembling toasters on a conveyor belt, I often assemble modify and customize kettles at home in my spare time. in 5 years time I see myself as a pro toaster assembler and maybe ready to branch out to assembling blenders as well. My greatest weakness is that I love assembling kitchen appliances too much.

What side projects will get someone hired?
I want some ideas for killer side projects, please no AI shit. I don't want to make yet another chatbot of the month AI.

>>106409171
they aren't idiots. They know grads will have 0 job experience in CS unless they did summer internships. If they did, well they are getting jobs before you then.

>>106409167
Based and harsh truth-pilled

>>106409162
Oh, I think your problem is age discrimination. You're assumed to be too expensive to hire, and too likely to jump ship.

>>106409183
>What side projects will get someone hired?
Nobody gives a shit unless it's an actual business, or a tool that people actually use.

Grind Jeetcode.

>>106409179
make a competitor to their product that will put them out of business
take the acquihiring pill
otherwise they just don't want americans

>>106409192
I'm in my 30s!

How do they know I'm too expensive without even asking me about it?

>>106409202
this thread is an example of why they don't want Americans because they just complain all the time about not wanting to be slaves. The Indian dev will be forever thankful for the job you gave him and won't post online about tranny HR staff gatekeeping him out of a job.

>>106409201
I guess that's the only way

>>106409176
It's in the interests of HR to string out the recruitment process, repeatedly.

>>106409233
too old to do 60-80 hour crunch weeks, the energy drinks and coffee will probably give your old man body a heart attack.

>apply to lockheed for local IT
>interview goes fine until one question
>"Anon what's your experience with the F-35i Lightning II Adir?"
>wat
>say I know what it is, knowledgedrop some stats/features, but joke that I've obviously never flown one
>they just start packing up their stuff as soon as I finish saying "... But I've never flown one"
>"Anon we were expecting someone with a little more experience in the field."
What the fuck? Do they really expect 40k/yr helldeskers to have combat flight experience on a brand-new plane?

>>106409256
2 more weeks of complaining and you'll get your 300K job with 4 hours of work a day and 6 months holiday paid.

>>106409252
HR has to be one of the most broken and fundamentally misaligned parts of the modern corporate machine.

This is only an issue because of the competition and saturation. Other fields dont have it nearly as bad, especially fields that arent known for passion.
Its a doggy dog world and adapt or die.
Yeah its dumb you have to be the best guy on earth to get a job, but thats not gonna change until the tech fad is completely dead and that wont be for at least another few decades.

>>106409286
lmao this guy doesn't fly F-35s on weekends

>>106409286
They wanted to hire an indian, obviously

>>106409402
nta the absolute irony behind your "be a slave" mentality is that sooner or later you will find that once they finish cutting cost with worker h1bs it will be HR h1bs, no reason to think an indian can't gobble corpo nuts better than you lol. Example exactly this happened at my work lmao.

>>106409201
>Grind Jeetcode.
This is legit advice but you still also need to get to a technical interview for it to matter.

>>106402213
both of my two recent jobs were like this.
After hiring its just 'come to the office once to collect your laptop and have coffee with us, then you can fuck off where ever you like'

>>106409435
I actually finally got a normal job, at a defence contractor, and it is the only time in my adult life where I applied to a job and never spoke to HR about anything more than pure boring procedure

literally the HR stacey recruiter only contacted me to schedule an interview and give me the link to do ITAR paperwork. that's it. my actual interview was with who would be my immediate boss and the section head, and I only did the one round.

i still dont know why they hired me, when i interviewed the only real tech question was "how do you troubleshoot" and I said some bullshit like "well I'd make sure it's actually on and not screaming or flashing red first, if it's beeping or flashing usually that has a line in the manual telling me what its problem is and if it's completely dark I would probably try turning it on"

>hurr durr I spent 10 years configuring my troonix distro why can't I get a job
cniles need to learn that 90% of coding jobs are in webshitting. if you're not in ee that's what you'll get.
t. electronics chad

>>106402984
Don't they literally pay doctors to go to conferences in their niche? They do here anyway.
They don't pay you to learn shit at home.
Literally all you need to know is Java and some frameworks to be capable of doing most corporate shit programming work.
Anything fancier than that is likely not going to be stable work.

>>106403037
If all the jeets were suddenly to perish, perchance those jobs would be available again?
You need to be the change you want in the world Anon.

>>106409617
>perchance those jobs would be available again?
nope. job market was already fucked well before infinity jeets.

>Maintain a C library and python package that gets semi-decent traffic
>Still get hit with the "no experience" stick.
It doesn't count if it isn't in an office apparently.

>>106409630
tech culture really never moved on from the 80s
it's either nerdy robot man virgin4life or le heckin cool l33t h4xor that never leaves his terminal
in real life it's all javajeets and webshitters debating ui/ux all day
that's what you need to be to get a job

>>106401688 (OP)
the blackpill is that they will downplay side projects as "non commercial" experience the second that the language or technology is sufficiently easy to hire for experience in.

>>106409651
Well I'm boned, I hate front end development and OOP just doesn't click with me compared to functional and procedural.

>>106409688
>OOP just doesn't click with me
I don't understand people who say this. what is so hard to understand

>>106409696
Dunno what to tell you, conceptualizing data as objects and making abstractions based on that just doesn't click with me the same way Data in -> function -> data out. It's not hard, just that I can't think in that way for extended periods of time.

>>106409707
it's just
>Data.Datum1 in -> function -> Data.Datum2 updated
like golly gee i have this array, i wish i could just look at a specific index of it instead of reversing le binary tree or whatever

for example, yesterday i was playing some vidya and built a radar thing, so i would have an object of "The RADAR Unit" that exposes its current angle(s), how far away whatever it's looking at is, how long it takes to complete one full revolution, what extra sensors I strapped to it, etc. Calling RADAR.length and RADAR.angle gives me a vector I can put into an object representing my current view of the world around me (building up traces and drawing "radar paint"), if I have a positive contact I can make a object out of that where I can start adding other information (what is the movement of the contact, maybe i will manually add stuff like type of ship or whether it is hostile/friendly, etc)

it's still all data in data out but some object has data to it so instead of doing some cobol ass "read/write 8 characters ahead in my bespoke artisan free-range crack fueled data word standard" i can just say "read/write to this field and figure out the memory management yourself if you're so smart" and if I have a situation where I have, say, TWO contacts, I can just say "make another Contact object and populate it with this new data" instead of needing gorillions of placeholders

>>106409783
Fair enough, I just have a weird brain.

>>106401688 (OP)
Sell your projects instead of working for these people.

>>106409696
OOP is easy to understand, it's shitty code done by retards following recipes.

>>106409790
apparently not, "I don't understand OOP" is a common sentiment

maybe I am the weird one because i played a lot of gmod as a kid so got used to complex systems (even if not "real" OOP but still conceptually "I have an object that exposes properties and functions, not just a stream of arbitrary data") and then became a Powershell Enjoyer later in life

>>106409817
I think it is more of a conceptual way of thinking rather than the actual programming that confuses people. I think what has poisoned me from OOP is a programming course back during my degree that used Java and not enjoying the planning of parent/child classes, single responsibility that led to factories and abstract classes and just general abstraction away from what is happening conceptually.
So, it might not even be a "not understanding it" deal, but more of a "I don't enjoy certain concepts of it compared to other programming styles". I personally didn't like everything in Java being an object and inheriting from that as well.

>>106409836
thats not an oop issue thats a java being designed by satanic weirdos from california issue

>>106402984
Doctors get paid extra for specialization

I have a year of part/full time pure coding experience, another degree, a dozen personal projects, and a decade of experience in another, unrelated field. I even have a security clearance. I have had 1 record yourself with a web cam type "interview" and 1 initial technical interview with no further contact after either and I'm 130 applications in so far.
I'm convinced there isn't a single job on the entire planet. A lot of these listings have basically been my exact resume and the cunts at HR can't even be bothered to send a rejection email.

>>106401688 (OP)
>btw contract states we own everything you program
>your side projects are our company's property

>durr y no side projec

I wish I had the energy to work on side projects when I come back home from work but I really don't

I won't do any programming outside of the workplace. Neither will I inside the workplace, as an LLM paid by the company will code for me.
You will employ me anyway because I got connections and I'm friends with your boss. Sucks to be you I guess ;)

>>106401741
a jack of all trades but master of none innit

>>106401703
Treat it like a craft. If you don't, we'll hire a 78 IQ shitjeet who literally doesn't give a fuck about anything other than A: acquiring money, and B: helping out his coethnics.

>>106409242
Sure the jeet won’t complain, but he won’t produce anything either. He’ll just suck blood out of your organization as quietly as he can for as long as possible. By the time you catch on, he has a fortune back home and doesn’t care.

>>106401688 (OP)
>lazy americans when they have to actually do work and get outcompeted by indians
Why is the new gen so retarded?

>>106410615
lil timmy be winnin his darwin award ong

>>106401688 (OP)
>graduate college
>have no show
>no work
>no github account
>no code base
>no hobbies
>no personal projects
>21 years of no show
>expect companies to hire you based on your degree mill

>>106410652
>No work
Did an entire year doing a maternity leave cover and internship.
>no github account
Have one
>No code base
Have one
>No hobbies
None programming related
>No personal projects
I doubt they are going to care about my text adventure game or data analytics library.
>expect companies to hire you based on your degree mill.
I got the work experience.
I got the degree.
I got proof of my work.
Yet a 0.5% call back rate just for interviews, fuck you.

>>106409996
And even if you can have side projects, they'll expect you to give everything away for free on github. Fuck that, they don't work for free on their free time so why should I?
What am I supposed to do, add screenshots of my side projects on the back of my CV?

>>106401688 (OP)
What they're saying seems kinda reasonable. I landed my first job after citing the student projects I did and by the time I quit and got an another one I had a github with like 5 or 6 failed or irrelevant side projects that nobody ever asked for, but I would have provided them if anyone was interested.

This is a far cry from faggots who ask their new hires to actually seriously contribute to open source projects and look at their contribution charts which is mentally ill.

I love how IT workers instead of pushing back when presented with insane requirements from these retards are still blaming themselves because they didn't match these retards expectations. No wonder they keep shitting on you and come up with even more retarded requirements. In any other industry they'd go under in less than a year, but tech autists have no dignity and self-worth

>>106410652
My side projects are all on my NAS's hard drives just in case one of them becomes valuable and I can escape the wage cage.
Unfortunately I went to the bank but they told me I cannot pay my mortgage with GitHub stars.

>>106401688 (OP)
The thing is that because of the computer science degree boom there are far too many applicants, so it's nessecary to have a high level of dedication to the 'craft' to stand out against everyone who didn't write their first line of code until 6 months into their 1st year of university.

>>106401703
it is a craft you need to make 1000 UI elements with Border Radius 10 until you really know how to make a UI element with Border Radiu 10, just like woodworking. it will be second nature after you've done it long enough

>>106401688 (OP)
well you should have projects when coming out of university otherwise what do you have to show for it?

>>106410863
Then what was the purpose of colleges in the first place?

>>106410865
the purpose of college is to learn but if youre not working on any projects while youre there what the fuck are you doing i dont get how people are even passing the degree without any projects to show should have atleast 1 by the end of it

>>106409610
I get paid to go to conferences as a programmer too.
Attending a conference is not really going to keep you with all the new advancements.

>>106409856
So do programmers.

>>106410865
To teach you how to do the projects and what you should do.

>>106401688 (OP)
>no side project
in programming thats a red flag
it means the person has no interest in their craft and just looks for a 9-5 with maximum money for the least effort
so theyre lazy
so their diploma is kinda worthless bc its fairly certain theyre on of these chat-gpt kiddies

also: its hard to ascertain their actual skill without looking at their code
also also: its pretty damn normal to show ones portfolio when advertising skills
why does that entitled, lazy zoomertrash thinks it should be different for programming?

>>106401688 (OP)
>I've never seen anything like it
>in this hiring environment which hasn't changed substantively in a decade

>>106402984
If only programmers had the same seamless training to employment pipeline as doctors.

>>106411594
"certificates and degrees are not accomplishments"

>>106411594
If I were to choose between career that requires me to spent countless hours memorizing whole books for exams during collage, and just having to do some hobby projects, then the choice is obvious.
I had some friends who went to study medicine. I would never want to go through this even if I had guaranteed job afterwards.
If you put only a fraction of effort required to become a doctor into making hobby projects, you will have guaranteed job too.

>>106411669
I've thought about this too. It might be better to skip CS and just self-teach and work on projects for 4 years. I believe you would be a much better programmer doing this, but might not translate to employability. Somehow programmers have to do everything.

>>106411731
Or you can just do both. It's not like CS degree takes that much time, I already had day job starting on the 2nd year of university. I mostly went there for CS math anyway.

>>106401703
/thread

>>106411624
They clearly are if companies auto sort/filter for applicants with such accomplishments.

>>106410865
to steal your money

>>106404928
Yes, that's the point. You can't afford to live there with 80k, unless you're willing to live in a tent in the office like musk's jeets.

>>106411777
Nice digits.

My side project is having sex, sorry Stacy but I won't be having sex with you. You are below me in the social hierarchy.

>>106401688 (OP)
Let’s see those side projects, Brianne

>>106401703
The people that treat it like a craft don't work in slop factories. They're coding their own projects

>>106409183
Writing a back-end for LLVM..

>>106409651
Well you also need the communication skills of a frat chad, they ask three references from two jobs so you cant just be a nolife loser.

>>106410711
>In any other industry they'd go under in less than a year
They don't go under because investors keep pumping money into these bullshit companies, until they no longer do and they all crash and burn simultaneously, just like it happened several times in the past.

>>106412552
>Let’s see those side projects, Brianne
They are on OnlyFans probably.

>>106401688 (OP)
i dont want to share my embarrassing unfinished gamedev projects doebeit

>>106401688 (OP)
Who the fuck cares

>>106411149
>>also also: its pretty damn normal to show ones portfolio when advertising skills
>yeah I'd like to work as a mechanic at your car dealership
>out in the parking lot on a trailer I have a vehicle I replaced the engine and transmission on, you can drive it if you want
>"uhh, we just filled the position, please leave"

>>106413622
lolle wtf do you even mean
especially even non mechanics do maintenance or even repair their cars

to reiterate:
wtf are you doing in in my mechanic shop if dont give a fuck about mechanic stuff?

>>106401688 (OP)
>>106401703
fpbp

and this is why I wont even get a job in tech despite being more knowledgeable and experienced than a college graduate.
I have a friend who plays guitar. Once he said to me "You know so much about computers and seem passionate about it. Why don't you get a job in tech?" After explaining to him how disgusted I am by the industry, advancement being negated by bloat and such, he compared it to his guitar playing. "Oh, so it's like how I play guitar because I enjoy it, not to be rich and famous".

>>106401688 (OP)
all the stuff i program in my free time are completely unrelated to webdev slop and during interviews they never even bring it up

>>106402431
Not nearly everyone does them. And leetcode is a bad way of figuring out if a developer knows anything and if they'd work for your company. It tests if you're autistic enough to grind them on your free time or unemployed and willing to grind them. They show more about one's ability to memorize shit than problem solving ability. The best way to interview developers is to just try to find people with work experience and one's that seem like people that can work with other people. Present them with some code and talk with them about it. If they have public works available talking about those and why they did certain decisions is way better than leetcode in figuring out if they can do shit.

leetcode is a FAGMAN way of filtering candidates because they have to filter them somehow. And they're built around continuous churn and kicking out the worst performers anyway because they have an infinite supply of candidates. It works for that, but other companies are copying then even when they don't understand why they're doing what they're doing.

>>106413813
Sorry, you have 1000 retards ranging from Pajit Singh to Dudebro Fraticus from Party U sending plausible applications. In spite of their credentials, most of them can't fizzbuzz. Not only are they more likely to bullshit you just talking, but your can't filter in a time efficient manner.

For all its flaws, the alternative to Jeetcode is "If you didn't go to the half dozen schools we take interns from or work at dozen companies we respect, you are never getting a job in this industry".

>>106413884
The alternative to jeetcode is “stop wasting time on lying jeet applicants”. The only reason it exists is because of them. It’s not complicated.

>>106413884
And being able to memorize jeetcode problems doesn't mean they can do anything else. Stop even looking at pajeet applications and you solve a massive problem. Then just hire random people and fire them if they can't do shit. There's no way to be sure they know their shit without actually having them do the job for a while. If they can't get shit done in the first month just fire them and get a new one. No point spending ages trying to find the perfect match. That might still end up not working.

No matter how much you complain the brown labor replacements are not going away.
The system's endgame is to exterminate you because you're white and eventually you will fight back with violence.

So either you sit around whining and wait until it's too late to realize your survival instincts,
or you go to war and kill who needs to be killed

Most tech takes a few weeks to learn. Honestly codemonkey jobs should require a STEM degree and being a citizen.

>>106401741
you sound good, id take a look at ur cv
sendcv.stoppable906@passmail.net

>>106401741
Does the compiler make working binaries ?
Does the OS run on real hardware ?
In both cases you can try selling them.

>>106414010
There are a lot of white applicants from third tier toilets that couldn't code their way out of a LC Easy.

>>106409286
Did you mention war thunder? If you did that's where you lost them, never mention that shit if you are trying to apply for a government contractor

>>106409041
Turn off your computer then

>>106402984
>Do you consider medicine backwards too since doctors are expected to keep up with modern drugs, equipment and techniques?
I don't expect pediatricians to be up to date on the latest cancer treatments.

>>106401703
This sounds like a clever response at first, but if I'm shortlisting candidates and an applicant
>has never worked in a code monkey assembly line job
>and has also never created anything non-trivial on their own
then what the fuck do I have to go on? I definitely can't just base it on their degree because cheating is rampant now. First covid-era online exams and now AI writing everyone's coursework for them.

Would you hire an artist who just graduated with an art degree but has none of their own art to show you and talk about?

>>106414680
Your webdev employee will not expect you to program relativistic black hole simulation either.

>>106410865
To give you a piece of paper that slightly increases your chances of getting past the HR filter

>>106414711
Oh so I'm not expected to "keep up with the industry" anymore? Great. Glad that meme is dead.

>>106414757
>so I'm not expected to "keep up with the industry"
No. He will instead expect you to know a bit more than jquery for example.

>>106414776
Why are you making pointless strawman arguments? That wasn't the original premise from the start of the reply chain.

i do have projects but i have never been hired though

>>106409286
You should think about it like the employer. Maybe they have someone internally who's worked on the F35, maybe they're hiring someone from Boeing who's worked on another plane.
Why would they hire you if they have a candidate like that ? I think that's the question.

>>106414875
Why is that relevant for a helpdesk job?

>>106414892
If it's helpdesk entry level they most likely just wanted to know if you're smart or not.

>>106414905
Anon appeared to demonstrate knowledge about the plane. What more do you realistically want? A candidate that knows exactly as much as anon does but also flies planes recreationally? I mean come on.

>>106414910
The question is "what's your experience with the F35" not "what do you know about the F35".

>>106414783
The original statement was:
>the idea that I'm expected to dedicate time outside of work to "keep up with the industry", or learn the latest meme framework du jour, is absolutely retarded
And my response to this is, you don't have to. It's just that once you deliver your current jquery project, you might find yourself in a situation where your next client or employee will not be satisfied with a jquery website. In that case, all your time will belong to the "time outside of work" category.

>>106414976
Dodged the point and got into useless nitpicking. We don't have a transcript of what he exactly said but from the greentext quote:

>say I know what it is, knowledgedrop some stats/features, but joke that I've obviously never flown one
By that, I would assume that he said he never actually flew the plane or worked with it directly but knew various factoids about it which seems like a reasonable answer. Keep in mind, this is a helpdesk job.

>>106415007
Do you seriously expect any other candidate to have flown an F35 ? He's applying to become a help desk, not a test pilot.

>>106414988
Well and your response is stupid. Nobody is talking about such an extremely narrow domain field like "jquery website". Most software development is some variation of CRUD and anybody that's half decent can do that in a variety of languages. There's no technical need to constantly chance whatever the latest fad is unless you specifically work in a few narrow areas in the field.

>>106415080
>Nobody is talking about such an extremely narrow domain field like "jquery website".
Webdev is a prime example of new frameworking being made everyday and jquery used to be popular back in the day. It makes a good example of framework that a senior web developer might have started with that no longer is relevant, making it necessary to learn something new to keep up with the industry.

>>106415007
>Dodged the point and got into useless nitpicking
Before learning C++, Java etc you might be better off learning English.

>>106415115
If you know a couple, you can easily do any of them. It's all the same shit at the end of the day.

>>106415118
Can you read? Anon answered the question while demonstrating his knowledge. What's the problem with that answer

>>106409836
OOP without inheritance is pretty useful, inheritance (and anything else that hides behavior from the programmer through implicit relationships) is braindead.

>>106415151
And then keeping up with the industry shouldn't be a problem for you.

>>106415189
That's not the complaint. Some dude that has made websites for 10 years but didn't use specific framework xyz is better than some junior that used react for a year.

>>106415173
With typeclasses like Rust's traits you still get polymorphism without all the diamond problem bullshitery. OOP is very useful if you just ignore design patterns.

>>106414988
>It helpdesker is expected to deliver a jquery project and then transition seamlessly to COIN overflights in an F35
when will normies come to their senses and realize the job market is irrational, hysteric even?

>>106415212
What?

>>106415205
>That's not the complaint
The complaint was
>the idea that I'm expected to dedicate time outside of work to "keep up with the industry", or learn the latest meme framework du jour, is absolutely retarded
If keeping up with the industry is no problem for you after you learn few frameworks then there is no problem. You keep up with the industry and get hired to a project that has some specific requirements. If you don't, then you have to fight for the remaining positions maintaining projects in technologies of the past.

>>106415259
The complaint is about dumb hiring practices. A guy that knows a lot of about a specific problem domain but didn't happen to use random tool XYZ will get rejected in favor of someone who knows very little but did use tool XYZ. This is the grievance. It should not be hard to understand.

Just like their boomer forefathers, they get into these positions and then pull the ladder up behind them, ignorant to the fact that people who learn programming typically don't know WHAT to focus on until they're in the field and see what the work is actually composed of.

Ironically, most of them are already burned out from having to adapt to a field innundated with chinese and indian professors who teach in a way that is entirely incompatible to the American academic ideal, where professors actually engaged, guided from the ground up, answered questions, and had enthusiasm. Instead you get a fucking video thrown at you like you're in high school and are expected to follow along, take notes, all while they completely phone it in for the sake of their (typically indian and chinese) master students.

It's all a complete scam from the bottom up and as a cyber security professional, I sincerely cannot wait for the LLMs to get good enough to completely wipe out 90% of these overinflated jobs. I hate the pretense of programmers so fucking much when all they really have going for them is institutional backing, while people who make actually useful tools (see: OpenSSL, DNS, BIND ) .

Fuck you all, they'll never automate security beyond SOAR platforms, and they'll sure as hell never outsource everyone to foreign nationals.

>>106415303
>SOC monkey calls others useless
Lol. Lmao.

>>106415295
I would rather have junior with 1 year React experience than senior with 10 year angular experience in my React project.

>>106415315
Jokes on you homie, I'm out of the queues and didn't have to chase certs beyond my degree.

>>106415325
If pay is a consideration here in this equation (e.g. obviously you'd have to pay the senior more), then you're retarded.

>>106415343
isn't*

Sp glad I didnt get into this industry, despite growing up in the Bay Area

>>106415325
>I would rather have a junior I can order around than a senior who'll start asking a better salary, wfh etc
FTFY

>>106412338
Suck my dick

This entire thread is a stark reminder of why it’s necessary to range ban India

>>106415403
>who'll start asking a better salary
I am a team lead, not HR.
>I would rather have a junior I can order around
Yes, I would rather have a junior I could delegate simple tasks to than a dude I would have to teach how to do basic tasks.

>>106415433
>a dude I would have to teach how to do basic tasks
the senior should be able to learn the basics of the language and your coding style while familiarizing themselves with your existing codebase. i've never had a problem training up in a new language on the job

>>106415433
You're somewhat right, the senior should be promoted to a leadership role so if he has to do the same tasks as the junior he's probably retarded.
But a good senior shouldn't be doing that, it would take them a week or two to switch from Angular to React, and most of the time would be spent getting used to the code base (something no candidate would know)

>>106415617
>(something no candidate would know)
Why do you not know our codebase, anon? What did you even study in school? Are you even serious about this IT Analyst position? Have you ever even flown an F35?

>>106415641
kek