Thread 106509032

>Lisp is a family of programming languages with a long history and a distinctive parenthesized prefix notation. There are many dialects of Lisp, including Common Lisp, Scheme, Clojure and Elisp.

>Emacs is an extensible, customizable, self-documenting free/libre text editor and computing environment, with a Lisp interpreter at its core.

>Emacs Resources
https://gnu.org/s/emacs
https://github.com/emacs-tw/awesome-emacs
https://github.com/systemcrafters/crafted-emacs

>Learning Emacs
C-h t (Interactive Tutorial)
https://emacs.amodernist.com
https://systemcrafters.net/emacs-from-scratch
http://xahlee.info/emacs
https://emacs.tv

>Emacs Distros
https://spacemacs.org
https://doomemacs.org

>Elisp
Docs: C-h f [function] C-h v [variable] C-h k [keybinding] C-h m [mode] M-x ielm [REPL]
https://gnu.org/s/emacs/manual/eintr.html
https://gnu.org/s/emacs/manual/elisp.html
https://github.com/emacs-tw/awesome-elisp

>Common Lisp
https://lispcookbook.github.io/cl-cookbook
https://cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook
https://gigamonkeys.com/book
https://lem-project.github.io
https://stumpwm.github.io
https://nyxt-browser.com
https://awesome-cl.com

>Scheme
https://scheme.org
https://try.scheme.org
https://get.scheme.org
https://books.scheme.org
https://standards.scheme.org
https://go.scheme.org/awesome
https://research.scheme.org/lambda-papers

>Clojure
https://clojure.org
https://tryclojure.org
https://clojure-doc.org
https://calva.io
https://clojure.land
https://www.clojure-toolbox.com
https://mooc.fi/courses/2014/clojure
https://clojure.org/community/resources

>Other
https://github.com/dundalek/awesome-lisp-languages

>Guix
https://guix.gnu.org
https://nonguix.org
https://systemcrafters.net/craft-your-system-with-guix
https://futurile.net/resources/guix
https://github.com/franzos/awesome-guix

>SICP/HtDP
https://web.mit.edu/6.001/6.037/sicp.pdf
https://htdp.org

>More Lisp Resources
https://lisp.nexus
https://rentry.org/lispresources

(setq *prev-bread* >>106419114)

>>106507052
>Bintracker is an advanced, cross-platform chiptune music editor that supports many different sound routines on a wide range of 8-bit and 16-bit target systems. It is also an interactive programming environment running on top of Chicken Scheme.
https://bintracker.org
https://github.com/bintracker/bintracker

>>106509043
I should probably check Scheme someday.
They are not compatible between themselves, right.

>>106498308
>https://www.wedesoft.de/software/2025/09/05/clojure-game/
>https://store.steampowered.com/app/3687560/sfsim/
>https://github.com/wedesoft/sfsim
Beautiful.

>>106509131
>free-to-play
I kneel

Is there any way to get a better debugging experience with Sly? I know I can add break calls, but that doesn't allow me to see returned values from previous statements or inspect all of the local values right in the code buffer.

pre-built guix live CDs with full linux kernel and network-manager

https://codeberg.org/hako/Testament/#headline-7

>>106494716
>unfold
baby steps
scheme@(guile-user)> (define (stop n) (< n 0))
scheme@(guile-user)> (stop 0)
$6 = #f
scheme@(guile-user)> (stop -1)
$7 = #t
scheme@(guile-user)> (define (down n) (- n 1))
scheme@(guile-user)> (identity 1)
$8 = 1
scheme@(guile-user)> (unfold stop identity down 3)
$9 = (3 2 1 0)

>>106509824
(import (srfi :1)) ; or
(import (srfi srfi-1)) ; same thing

Since gnu.org is so slow these days due to the DDoS campaign, I had to get better at using info.
(info "(guile) SRFI-1 Fold and Map")

Discovering Info-toc was a big help. It's bound to:
T for vanilla and
g T for evil.

>>106510096
Got archive what is important, anon.

>>106509620
Bretty gud.
I want to make my own image too and I have a couple of old TPs lying around.

>>106510096
>DDoS campaign
So THAT'S what's happening. I was wondering why it was taking so long just to open manual pages...
Who the fuck would ddos gnu? What possible reason is there?

>>106510096
>>106510109
>>106510121
Hmmm, I see that kiwix doesn't have much dumps of GNU manuals.
When I got some time I will package some stuff.

>>106510121
>Who the fuck would ddos gnu? What possible reason is there?
We talked about it a little bit in the last thread.
>>106473009

Here you go: https://lisp.nexus/guile/manual.html

>>106510246
(also added a link under the Scheme section)

I hate what the internet has become.

>>106510246
>>106510303

>>106510303
>>106510308
I turned the WAF off, is it good now?

>>106510369
Yes.

>>106510121
The whole internet is a DDOS botnet now with crawlers and agents.
Honest the internet as we knew no only died but it's rotting horribly.

>>106510376
Great, hope that helps. For some reason it was flagging requests to the manual as "PHP Information Leakage"
>>106510382
Yeah, and I pay for bandwidth by the GB so I had the WAF on. I'll just keep the DDOS protection on for now, might turn the WAF back on and disable that one rule if needed.

>>106510448
I am surprised someone with actually admin to a mirroris here.

Right now there are two plugins I am having trouble replacing in emacs coming from neovim: Mason and TreeSitter, for LSP server management and syntax highlighting/ASTs respectively. Those two plugins download and install servers and grammars for you so you don’t gave to manage them outside of your editor. That makes life a lot easier. Can someone help point me to the emacs equivalents, if any?

>>106510470
It's not exactly difficult, I'm sure anyone on here can figure it out. It's just a matter of throwing files on a CDN and pointing a domain to it. I personally use bunny.net because I dislike Cloudflare for ideological reasons.

To the anon from the previous thread who asked about more Lisp music software:
https://github.com/bintracker/bintracker

>>106510554
> already posted
Oops. But I regret nothing

testing lisp.nexus bot

>>106510121
Ai crawlers alone are basically a huge ddos botnet.
Even my small, irrelevant server/blog was getting hammered by them until I started sending them to tarpits.
It's pure cancer.

>>106448149
I didn't have the specific Mona font you're using, but I found a few TrueType Mona font alternatives online. The one I'm using is:
https://github.com/public-domain/mona
I found it more accurate than the Monapo font that some Linux distros package for this purpose.
(defface shift-jis-art
'((t :font "Mona 12"))
"The face for Shift_JIS artwork, which requires an appropriate font,
e.g. Mona font.")

That nobreak stuff you mentioned in your comments was really important too. I actually didn't notice your comment until after I had searched the web looking for an answer.
(set-face-attribute 'nobreak-space nil :underline nil)

>>106510608
Once upon a time, I came across a site that let you compare and contrast various Mona fonts, but I can't find it anymore.

>>106510595
I hope your tarpits poison them with AI generated text

>>106510834
Not yet, but I was planning to do that next.
Anyone got some decent up-to-date sources on the topic? I don't know how good ai crawlers are nowadays at detection/mitigation of defensive poisoning techniques.
I only know that they are still as dumb and greedy as always when it comes to traversal itself.

>>106510911
https://git.madhouse-project.org/iocaine/iocaine

>>106511005
Thanks anon

>>106510246
>https://lisp.nexus/guile/manual.html
Nice. Thanks, kin/g/.

Once again how the fuck do I use eglot with python venvs? Do I really need to install one lsp per venv?

>>106510520
>I dislike Cloudflare for ideological reasons.
we all do, although I've never seen "bunny" used anywhere before, seems like 102% of websites nowadays use Cloudfare and more recently Anubis.

Are you guys happy? Nothing insidious about the question. I'm genuinely curious and hoping for the best.

>>106512266
No problem, let me know if there's anything else you'd like mirrored. I set up a bot that alerts me on mentions of the site's name.
>>106512751
Yeah they're an up and coming player and they're actually building some cool stuff. Downside is they're not as mature and... the whole furry thing

>>106513446
No. I think I might actually be schizoid(not schizo, learn the difference). I have pretty bad treatment resistant depression and I fucked my back up so I can barely stand/walk for longer than 5 minutes at 24. I don't have any friends as I can't feel connections to other people(not even my family). Plus my quality of life is made worse by sleep apnea causing me to never get deep sleep and I can slowly feel muself getting stupider by the day, when I'm not even fat so why the fuck do I have it.
Thanks for asking. Are you?

>>106513658
More or less. Accumulating bad decisions, but my overall situation isn't exactly desperate, a bit far from it, actually. Working on improving it, but it's going to take a while. (will read SICP soon, quite excited about this)
Damn, anon, I'm sorry. I bet that back is responsibly for a lot of misery. Any chance expensive medical help could help alleviate that?

>>106513658
Btw how exactly did you hurt your back?

>>106513870
Im used to the back issues already, my bigger problem is bad sleep & no motivation. The only things that can help my back are physical therapy and surgery, and I'm too young for the latter. Unfortunately my issues are ones I can't throw money at; I make pretty good money and I absolutely would've by now.
>>106513880
It has always been a weak point, even when I was body building and extremely fit. I suspect it was due to sitting down in my room my whole childhood instead of going out and playing sports or whatever. But one day I just overstrained it and ended up in the ER because of the pain. Now the pain is constant thanks to a pinched nerve.
Anyways I think we've derailed the thread enough. Stop making bad decisions and start reading SICP today, not "soon." Share your progress here and ask if you have questions.

>>106513446
Not really. I'm a mid 30s loser currently living with his parents again. No job.
Depression made me drop out of university back in the day as well as out of my part time job.
Basically just ashamed of myself constantly which led to me avoiding friends and family as much as possible.
The thought of just killing myself crosses my mind almost daily, including finished planning etc.
Programming, learning and building stuff still brings me joy at least.
I am going back to university next month to try and get a degree.
Started sending some applications for part-time programming jobs but I am really not very hopeful on that end.
I have also prepared an application for a trade apprenticeship, as a Plan B in case Uni doesn't work out.

At least going to try these two things and see if I can manage to salvage the time I have left, worth a try before ending it.

>>106513446
very much no

>>106513446
No.
I got my doctorate but in this market I cannot even get interviews for the very thing I wrote my thesis on. I was rejected by HR in 20 minutes when I met the requirements so thoroughly I literally was one of the people doing modern research in their field.
I could only laugh.

>>106514045
Will do. Godspeed, anon.

>no one on the lisp general is happy
u-uh guys?
>>106514485
Are you a good programmer? Got some public repos? Where are you located?
>>106514568
What was your thesis on?

>>106514807
> Are you a good programmer?
Depends on what you consider good.
I'd say I'm competent/advanced in the things I focus on mostly, like low level programming and math.
> repos?
Hesitant to share so I don't doxx myself.
But yeah I work on a few public projects, one of which isn't popular per se, but at least useful enough to some people to donate me a few bucks occasionally.
> where are you located
France

>>106510608
>I didn't have the specific Mona font you're using
I'm using the xfonts-mona package on Debian
https://packages.debian.org/trixie/xfonts-mona
But it's a bitmap font. Debian also packages a TrueType Mona font (fonts-mona), which I'm guessing is the same as the one you're using.
>nobreak-char-display
I didn't know that variable existed, that's very useful because I do need visible non-breaking spaces when I'm writing in org-mode.

Also to add to my previous post (>>106448149), I was reading the em-banner-el file and this is what it says:
;; This code is only an example of a how to write a well-formed
;; extension module for Eshell. The better way to display login text
;; is to use the `eshell-script' module, and to echo the desired
;; strings from the user's `eshell-login-script' file.

So instead of trying to modify `eshell-banner-message' every time I started a new eshell session, I ended up replacing my original code with a function that selects a random text file with ASCII art and calling that function in the login script.

>>106509101
I am back to Elixir actually
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38lJJuAArrc
all languages are trash in their little ways

>>106509131
>https://www.wedesoft.de/software/2025/09/05/clojure-game/
>Malli to add schemas to functions
Interesting

>>106513446
I'm going to be the odd one out, most likely because I am not in the united states.
I *am* happy. I don't know why you ask in the lisp general, thought.
But relating your question to the topic of the thread, I would say I am happy to be able to experiment with an intriguing, deep, system such as is common lisp, and that even a smartphone today can run something that was night unthinkable for personal computers a some decades in the past.
(speaking of smartphones, I do not own a smartphone, which is probably one reason why I am not depressed.)
As it relates to the job market I am less optimistic. I also would like to be able to work with common lisp, and while I think there may be room for opportunity, l absolutely loathe corporate shit, the modern programming ecosystem, etc. I just have to trust I can find some niche that isn't corporate hell.

>>106514995
>low level programming and math
Not good for career opportunities unless you're REALLY good. Have you considered teaching or building a service around those skills?
>France
rip

Looks like traffic and bandwidth usage on lisp.nexus are up, but nothing crazy so far. Any complaints, comments, suggestions?

https://emacs.amodernist.com
domain has been taken over, where can I find a working copy of the site or alternatives to it

>>106510616
I found it!
https://fonts.aahub.org/

>>106519392
What was in there

>>106514807
Nobody will ever tell you what their thesis was on if they want to remain anonymous , research communities are too small to answer

>>106519392
https://web.archive.org/web/20250903074741/https://emacs.amodernist.com/
I'll check it out tomorrow and see if I can throw it on lisp.nexus

>>106519587
>vertico
>consult
bloat

>>106519611
The whole idea of a config generator is bloat

Is the SICP instructor manual worth getting as I work through the book?

>>106518226
Thanks for creating the site

>>106519611
consult is useful.

>>106519625
Bloat is relative to the needs of the user. Bloat is exactly the things the user doesn't need.
If you use any other definition for bloat you can end up defining anything to be bloat. Technically you don't even need a computer at all, you can just apply voltages to the end of your ethernet cable to communicate with the internet.

>>106519991
Any and all external emacs packages are bloat.

>>106520006
Emacs is bloat.

>>106520060
It's strongfat.

Lem is pretty comfy and seems like the most promising/worthy successor to emacs.

>>106520060
This anon gets it

>>106520082
Oh no. I meant >>106520068

>>106520082
>>106520099
That is fat for people that don't want to admit they are.

>>106520506
Only in terms of aesthetics.
Strongfat in reality is like a good and skilled contractor. He doesn't look pretty, he doesn't make slutty women cream themselves nor does he look inspiring. But compared to a just fat/lazy guys he can easily work long hours even on a physically demanding job without complaining and he gets the work done and he does it well. And if you know him well he'll be there whenever you need him.

Like emacs.

>>106520077
Btw. how come Japan has such a healthy/productive Lisp community?
I noticed a bunch of cool configs/channels for Guix are run by japs as well.
Also a bunch of other actively developed interesting CL projects are made by japanese.

>>106520840
They do tend to have an eye for elegance, though it seems to be disregarded regrettably often in favor of corporate interests and inflexibility

>>106520732
You sound like a faggot.

>>106521051
There is no need to project, anon

>>106520840
>Btw. how come Japan has such a healthy/productive Lisp community?
higher average IQ.
that's the long and short of it because if you look at most objections to Lisp it's typically people complaining that it doesn't make you money and is therefore bad, or that it's too difficult to read when even macros are not hard to get over with proper documentation

>>106519991
>ethernet cable
>internet
bloat

>>106519764
I didn't create anything (yet) other than the logo, but you're welcome

Markdown versus Org-mode
https://karl-voit.at/2025/08/17/Markdown-disaster/

>Mentions
- 2025-08-25: [Karl Voit: Why Markdown Is A Disaster | Irreal] https://irreal.org/blog/?p=13221
>Pro Markdown
- [Markdown and the Slow Fade of the Formatting Fetish] https://ia.net/topics/markdown-and-the-slow-fade-of-the-formatting-fetish + [my comments on that] https://graz.social/@publicvoit/114279777250431265
- 2025-08-20: [Seriously, Markdown] https://coyotetracks.org/blog/markdown/
>Contra Markdown
- [Why You Shouldn’t Use “Markdown” for Documentation — Eric Holscher] https://ericholscher.com/blog/2016/mar/15/dont-use-markdown-for-technical-docs/
- 2025-08-20: [OSnews] https://www.osnews.com/story/143128/markdown-is-a-disaster-why-and-what-to-do-instead/
- 2025-08-23: [The Case For Markdown | Irreal] https://irreal.org/blog/?p=13215 as reaction to [Seriously, Markdown]

>>106520840
Japanese Lisp Machine
https://museum.ipsj.or.jp/en/heritage/FAST-LISP.html

>>106523364
Cool site thanks for sharing.
> The EVLIS Machine was proposed and announced in 1979 by the Department of Applied Physics, Faculty of Engineering, Osaka University. It was a multiprocessor-based parallel processing computer for Lisp programs, and was eventually realized and put into operation in 1982. It had execution performance competitive with ultra-large general-purpose machines of the time, including those which were foreign made [...]
https://museum.ipsj.or.jp/en/computer/other/0003.html

Does anybody have any tips for me on getting Slime to run? I'm the dumbass that was using Emacs on my phone last thread.
I have the package installed from MELPA, and it seems ok, and I have SBCL installed on termux okay, but when I actually M-x slime it summons SBCL, tries to start Swank, and then vomits. It's choking on backend.fasl. I'm not a CL expert so other than recognizing this as a compiled file I don't know what's going on here. Is this bytecode or architecure specific? Is there someway to recompile this while still using the package manager?

(cons* ...)
or
(append (list ...) ...)?

>>106524702
(define (cone . rest)
(cons (reverse (cdr (reverse rest))) (car (reverse rest))))

>>106524702
`(,@(list ...) ...)
[\code]

>>106524702
(defun nlist (&rest list)
(let ((n (- (length list) 1)))
(setf (nthcdr n list) (nth n list))
list))

>>106524681
>I'm not a CL expert so other than recognizing this as a compiled file I don't know what's going on here. Is this bytecode or architecure specific? Is there someway to recompile this while still using the package manager?

An alternate solution is to download "Portacle" which is an Emacs already configured with Slime, Swank, SBCL, Quicklisp, and Paredit. It works out of the box.

In that way you don't need to lose time configuring or troubleshooting things.

>>106526245
No.
- Portacle is not maintained anymore. https://github.com/portacle/portacle/issues/182
- Even if it were, there's no Android version of this anyway.

>>106524681
>I'm not a CL expert so other than recognizing this as a compiled file I don't know what's going on here. Is this bytecode or architecure specific?
SBCL fasls are architecture specific and also compiler version specific AFAIK

What's the best spaced repetition package (aka Anki alternative) for Emacs?

>>106526944
I'll second this questions

>>106515014
https://aahub.org/

>>106526719
That's awesome, why the hell doesn't the slime package build them from source then? Why would they package binaries? Sigh. I guess I'll try to install everything by hand tomorrow.

>>106526944
>>106526955
org-srs is based. dev has it working nicely on android too

saw another anon talking about hall effect keyboards in /mkg/, anyone here use one with emacs?

Seem like I will be forced to use Windows for work.
What's the best way to run emacs? Inside WSL?

>>106528782
What's the point outside of gaming?

>>106528961
Could eliminate the need for control and mod by utilizing the distinction between full press and partial press

>>106528782
>>106528961
Just read the thread. I personally don't see a benefit other than longevity, but I don't keep keyboards past 2 years typically.

>>106528985
I haven't typed on one so I can't give an actual opinion, but that sounds silly. Just trying to do it on my current keyboard kills my flow and I can't even do it reliably.

>>106519751
git gud
https://ocw.mit.edu/courses/6-001-structure-and-interpretation-of-computer-programs-spring-2005/video_galleries/video-lectures/

>>106513446
>are you happy
as much as i can be

about to start a job working in autolisp for autocad. i've never touched any lisp in my life. most resources i see are for the various other flavors, or otherwise SICP which seems too low-level for day-to-day work. does anyone have autolisp experience, or could point to good resources to pick it up to a working level? mostly concerned with code quality etc. thanks

>>106530667
>autolisp
my condolences

>>106530667
https://www.afralisp.net/

>>106530782
that looks perfect, thank you so much

>>106530802
It looks like a really primitive Lisp that's missing a lot of the things that make Lisp cool. I'd lower my expectations going into this.

>>106530667
>>106530802
autolisp is the only genuinely bad non-hobby lisp. it works but don't expect to see the appeal of lisp in it

>>106514807
>What was your thesis on?
basically >>106519554
but it's in the sciences, not computer science
i'm not really mad about seeing a job posted with my actual research topic in the description and still not getting even an interview, i can only laugh really
but unfortunately it is the curse of geography, if you're born in the wrong country your opportunities are immensely limited, and more and more "wrong country" seems to mean "non-US country" for skilled work these days

>Elisp has Clojure-like thread-first and thread-last macros built-in since Emacs 25
Elisp has Clojure-like thread-first and thread-last macros built-in since Emacs 25.

>>106526944
Org-fc

>>106528020
>org-srs is based
Link? Is this org-drill? If so, isn't org-drill unmaintained? It also had some problems with its timestamp formats in newer org versions

>>106531244
(defmacro internal--thread-argument (first? &rest forms)
"Internal implementation for `thread-first' and `thread-last'.
When Argument FIRST? is non-nil argument is threaded first, else
last. FORMS are the expressions to be threaded."
(pcase forms
(`(,x (,f . ,args) . ,rest)
`(internal--thread-argument
,first? ,(if first? `(,f ,x ,@args) `(,f ,@args ,x)) ,@rest))
(`(,x ,f . ,rest) `(internal--thread-argument ,first? (,f ,x) ,@rest))
(_ (car forms))))

What the fuck is this doing? f and x are not declared anywhere

>>106530286
I'm not sure how that relates to my question

>>106531357
pattern matching, read the pcase documentation

How do people in lisp land that want to make webshit deal with the lack of an established web framework? I'm trying to build a SaaS product, and I want to use clojure, but part of me is feeling like I should just fall back to the comfort of rails. Am I thinking about it all wrong? Is the framework approach just not the done thing? How do people navigate this?

>>106531278
https://github.com/bohonghuang/org-srs

Best way to display a nicely formatted list of key-value pairs? I'm trying to show the contents of a hash table.

>>106533522
In Emacs, of course.

>>106533522
>>106533545
use your pp
-- Function: pp object &optional stream
This function outputs OBJECT to STREAM, just like ‘prin1’, but does
it in a prettier way. That is, it'll indent and fill the object to
make it more readable for humans.

>>106533591
That doesn't look very good. I want each key-value pair on a single line and nicely aligned and showing up in a separate buffer.
I'm almost done writing a function that does it but maybe there's a better way. Almost went with table mode but it's too busy and doesn't seem to work too well with long lines.

>>106533030
>How do people in lisp land that want to make webshit deal with the lack of an established web framework?

To do web developing you need:
- a web server
- routing
- json serialization/deserialization
- database access lib
- (optional) ORM lib

in the Common Lisp ecosystem you have at least two high quality libaries for each item, you don't really need a frawework. A bit similar like using Flask on Python, where Flask for many years basically only provided Routing and you added the rest.

Gluing it all together is easier than learning many of the mega-frameworks that provide all at once. Simply because most of those libs are very easy to use.

>>106530667
>about to start a job working in autolisp for autocad. i've never touched any lisp in my life. most resources i see are for the various other flavors

my condolences

AutoLisp is like going back to 1960s and trying to work with the old LISP. A torture.

Uh, this is not really Lisp-related, but I feel like this is the thread to post it in. I just stumbled upon this, skimmed through a few random pages and I can already tell that it's...interesting.
https://web.archive.org/web/20070331194254/http://www.reciprocality.org/pdf/reciprocality.pdf
https://web.archive.org/web/20000903213322/https://reciprocality.org/Reciprocality/reciprocality.tar.gz
Found an active mirror - https://www.datapacrat.com/Opinion/Reciprocality/

>>106533522
>>106533591
This is what I currently have:

(defun string-list-max-length (strings)
(let* ((lenghts (mapcar (lambda (string) (length string)) strings))
(max-length (seq-max lenghts)))
max-length))

(defun show-hash-table (hash-table)
(let* ((keys (nreverse (hash-table-keys hash-table)))
(max-length (string-list-max-length keys)))
(with-temp-buffer-window "hash-table-details" nil nil
(mapcar (lambda (key)
(let* ((key-length (length key))
(pad-length (- max-length key-length))
(pad-string (string-pad "" pad-length)))
(princ (format "%s: %s%s\n"
key
pad-string
(gethash key hash-table)))))
keys))))


Not great and doesn't handle recursive hash tables cleverly or works with keys/values that aren't strings but does the job for now.

>>106533591
>use your pp
Which one?
If you're on Emacs 30+, in addition to pp, there's pp-29 and pp-28. They changed the way pp serializes in Emacs 30, and it's not as aesthetic as 29 and 28.

>>106533694
I expected to just be called a retard, to git gud, skill issue, etc. I'm not used to the a la carte approach, but I guess it makes sense not to use stuff you don't need.

>>106533694
CL has very little in the DB access business. CLSQL is dead.
Postmodern deals only with postgres.
Fukumachi is not production ready,.

>>106533030
I think Lisp enjoyers are mostly DIYers so if nothing this would be a positive.
Also frameworks are most of the time overengineered.
There are some blogs that are hosted with Lisp and org-mode.

>>106534818
>Postmodern deals only with postgres.
PSQL and SQLite are all people need and you have libs for them in all major lisps.

>>106533030
I'm mostly a Schemefag. I recently started playing around with Artanis
https://artanis.dev/

>>106536497
> Features
> GPLv3+ & LGPLv3+
> Very lightweight - easy to hack and learn for newbies.
> Support JSON/CSV/XML/SXML.
> Support for WebSockets.
> Good i18n support.
> A complete web-server implementation, including an error page handler.
> High concurrent async non-blocking server core based on delimited continuations.
> Supported databases (through guile-dbi): MySQL/SQLite/PostgreSQL.
> Nice and easy web cache control.
> Efficient HTML template parsing.
> Efficient static file downloading/uploading
Sounds pretty cool

>>106536497
>>106536737
We talked about Artanis some threads ago. It is used in another Scheme framework I don't remember the name now.

>>106536765
Would you consider it good?

>>106536765
Found it, it was a dependency of Kotatsu.
https://github.com/ECHibiki/Kotatsu-V
Someone also mentioned SchemeBBS as an example of web development with Scheme.
https://gitlab.com/naughtybits/schemebbs

>>106536779
I am not a schemer myself, but it's a GNU project and targeting Guille so I expect it to be satisfying to use,

>>106534818
>CL has very little in the DB access business. CLSQL is dead.

Not true at all. CLSQL works just fine and is not the only db access library there. CLSQL is very good software, as is Postmodern too.

>>106533030
Here's one example of picking out libraries for a web app.
http://beastie.sdf.org:4200/about

This is for Common Lisp, but Clojure has really mature options for all the things a web application needs.
>>106533694
...gave good advice.

>>106533713
>AutoLisp is like going back to 1960s and trying to work with the old LISP. A torture.

>>106538122
Mastery over the seen and unseen universe

>>106536497
I'm glad he got rid of that tacky CSS animation on his site.

>>106533391
İmo org-fc works better with org-roam

>>106533713
says the elisp user

>>106538345
Not him but some stuff actively needs maintenance. Database systems evolve and get security fixes.

Paid LISP systems have their own DB libraries (some are even used to implement databases lel). Racket has a bunch in the std lib, but I don't know how well maintained they are.

It's le modern webshit thing.

>>106539237
It's not "le modern webshit" thing.***

>>106539098
Did you look at what AutoLisp provides (and notice all the things it was missing)? AutoLisp doesn't have macros. It doesn't even have `let`.

>>106539237
>Database systems evolve
Not often, and oh well you won't have access to the new features for free. The core will work. Databases typically don't break backwards compatibility.
>and get security fixes
Shouldn't require any API changes

>>106539237
>security fixes
nigga, the database listens for string messages over some port. this is ultimately all that your lib is doing, generating and sending these strings
SQL has existed since 1973
people will talk so much about "security"
nigga Lisp ain't C. you aren't going to have buffer overflows and shit.
people that talk about "security" in this manner often have no idea, at all, what it even means.

>>106536497
can't get this to build on arch because of guile-curl
something about obsolete autoconf macros

>>106538122
I could go buy a nice cold beverage, and get ready to relax for an hour.

>>106513446
No, made a bunch of money in crypto but got liquidated because of insomnia making me forgetful about stop losses.

Also looking at home prices makes me wish every boomer would just die already,.

>>106540082
> autoconf
Autoconf is utter shit.
Any worthwhile, well-written software can just use a makefile.
> obsolete
There’s a modernize option on autoconf.
Of course you should report it as a bug and cc: the autoconf team to “stop fucking with it unnecessarily”

>>106541072
> boomers
It’s not our fault for the most part.
At least you’re using a language from the 60s and 70s. Good times.

>>106539740
>people will talk so much about "security"
>nigga Lisp ain't C. you aren't going to have buffer overflows and shit.
>people that talk about "security" in this manner often have no idea, at all, what it even means.

based homie

>>106542144
we writing Lisp nigga
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7CCNMfrwOI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=80Tf0hqynxQ

Are lispers interested in permacomputing?
Given how easy it is to write a very basic R4RS interpreter or compiler it seems like the perfect language for a stack that an individual can fully understand from language implementation down to its assembler and machine code.
And that could be fully described/taught in like 2-3 books max.
Run on a vm that can, due to its aforementioned nature, easily be ported to any chips in existence which comes in as a major advantage once we start scavenging for random computer parts in the remains of our first apocalypse.

>>106543003
In a better world the Nazis would have been defeated, but after finishing their work. And Israel doesn't exist after fully collapsing.

>>106543064
I would be very interested in this.
if the vm can be completely written in any assembly language, and a scheme compiler can be made to target that vm, that'd be all that's ever needed.
I'm down.

>>106543064
You are onto something very interesting that I barely understand. Can't wait to grok that stuff once I'm midway through my voyage

>>106543064

https://permacomputing.net/ - I'm curious to see what kind of work has been done so far.

> get into lem because it looks highly promising and done right
> start contributing
> "lem will now switch to webview+JS and drop SDL2"
> Javascript is now a hard dependency for lem outside the the terminal
> immediately the usual "muh modern UX" webshitters start flooding in demanding more javascript based cruft
> mfw

>>106544171
https://kyo.iroiro.party/en/posts/why-rewriting-emacs-is-hard/

>>106543064
>Given how easy it is to write a very basic R4RS interpreter or compiler it seems like the perfect language for a stack that an individual can fully understand from language implementation down to its assembler and machine code.
>And that could be fully described/taught in like 2-3 books max.
Or 1 book, considering the basics of this is more or less what's covered in SICP, in particular chapter 5 begins on using Lisp to describe register machines.
I don't mean this negatively - I am interested, but is this not precisely what was done with Lisp in the 70s already, up to some minor differences? The concepts of assemblers in Lisp were being taught in the past.

>>106544171
>>106544184
I'd be more open to this if they then focused primarily on Lem as a CLI editor, and the webview interface as an optional addition or even a totally separate package.
I don't like the idea of Lem just _being_ some Javascript project.

It kind of seems contradictory for the target audience anyway. Most people interested in Lem are wanting to go from Elisp to Common Lisp because they want a faster lower-level version of Emacs.
Creating a UI that is then more bloated and higher level seems like a contradiction.

Is it somehow possible to use emacs with two keyboards at the same time, and each keyboard controlling a different cursor?

I'm asking because I've been asked to teach someone basic computer science and programming.
I would like to teach her in a style similar to The Little Schemer, continually asking her questions and having her write small pieces of code at a time. This would also involve me writing a lot of code snippets, so each of us having their own keyboard would be more convenient.

>>106544684
crdt.el can provide shared editing, but it works over a network.
https://code.librehq.com/qhong/crdt.el
https://corpix.dev/2022/02/collaborative-editing-with-emacs.html

I don't think it can give two physical keyboards on the same machine their own cursor -- at least not without some hacking.

>>106544731
thanks, I'll try it later today
>but it works over a network
I'll try to work around that by connecting my second keyboard to my phone and ssh'ing into my desktop via termux

>>106544171
Time to fork it.
Call it /g/em.

>>106544171
>>106545918
I just hope they keep the core fully seperated so that the possibility of writing another GUI remains without Javascript shaped roadblocks that will. We all know that if you don't, webshit will spread like cancer.
I can of course sympathize with the main devs reasons for doing it, or rather his reasons for wanting to switch from SDL. But personally I'd much prefer lack of certain functionality, like the mentioned fancy decorations and effects, in exchange for the simplicity and performance of using something much more minimal.

>>106545972
I always wondered why they decided to use sdl2 instead of clx, or better, mcclim.
I actually considered contributing a mcclim interface, or whatever.
But if they're going to add webshit, it's better to do as >>106545918 said.

>>106543064
>>106544049
>permacomputing is an anti-capitalist political project. It is driven by several strands of anarchism, decoloniality, intersectional feminism, post-(((marxism))), degrowth, ecologism.
Sounds kinda gay to me.

>>106546673
It's an interesting idea, just like solarpunk and other related stuff.
But like so many interesting hacker topics, it got hijacked and coopted by trans people and other lgbt/feminist nutjobs.
And the trans people injecting themselves into online communities are typically also massive tankies in addition to all the other bullshit they preach.

There is nothing more effective when it comes to destroying and sabotaging left leaning movements than lgbt.

(if (functionp predicate)
(if (listp args)
(apply predicate args)
(funcall predicate args))
predicate)

>>106543064
1. write a Lisp that has a memory model simple enough to compile to C, Javascript,, Java, C#, Go, and Python. fashion a core that includes arithmetic, macros, Boolean expressions, and the ability to allocate an array.
2. use the resulting Lisp to extend itself with new data structures (hash tables, b-tree sets, directed graphs, queues, etc.).
3. use the resulting Lisp to build a VM that runs itself without necessitating compilation to a static language.

Write a Lisp for uxn.
https://wiki.xxiivv.com/site/uxn.html
https://learnxinyminutes.com/uxntal/

>>106548167
That's just Scheme 48, which sadly seems to be languishing. The Scheme VM and GC are written in a Scheme subset with manual memory allocation that's transpiled to C.

>>106549246
https://prescheme.org/
cool

>>106549487
Oh I remember the announcement.
Was wondering how they are doing, anyone following it?
Sadly the website doesn't have any more news.

>>106549487
No updates in almost one year.

>>106549487
>>106549706
tbf no blog posts doesn't mean no work.
> last commit on the project: 9 months ago
> last commit of the dev on his private repositories: 9 months ago
> last sign of life / social media post from the dev: 9 months ago
Lispbros, is he ok?

>>106549870
I mean, if you are being sponsored the least you can do is report.
I think the dude is dead.

>>106544684
https://github.com/emacs-mirror/emacs/blob/master/src/keyboard.h
>Each KBOARD represents one logical input stream from which Emacs gets input. If we are using ordinary terminals, it has one KBOARD object for each terminal device.
>Usually each X display screen has its own KBOARD, but when two of them are on the same X server, we assume they share a keyboard and give them one KBOARD in common.
>Emacs has two states for reading input:
>** Any kboard. Emacs can accept input from any KBOARD, and as soon as any of them provides a complete command, Emacs can run it.
>** Single kboard. Then Emacs is running a command for one KBOARD and can only read input from that KBOARD.
>All input, from all KBOARDs, goes together in a single event queue at interrupt level. read_char sees the events sequentially, but deals with them in accord with the current input state.
>In the any-kboard state, read_key_sequence processes input from any KBOARD immediately. [...] It switches to the single-kboard state for the execution of that command, so that the command can get input only from its own KBOARD.
>While in the single-kboard state, read_char can consider input only from the current KBOARD. If events come from other KBOARDs, they are put aside for later in the KBOARDs' kbd_queue lists.
It sounds like it may be natively possible (e.g. without multiseat) by running two emac processes in terminals reading from /dev/input/by-id/usb-*1-kbd and /dev/input/by-id/usb-*2-kbd respectively, as the x backend otherwise muxs keyboards together. Then share either an indirect-buffer or a regular file hooked with revert-buffer

I want to make a job-related emacs mode with navigation, listing and commands similar to dired or ibuffer.
Is there a decent manual somewhere or do I just pick those apart to learn how they do it?

Hey, CL people. I was thinking of giving vend a try. However, I was surprised to find out this is how `vend get` knows where to get a package.
https://github.com/fosskers/vend/blob/master/src/registry.lisp#L141-L720
He maintains a big plist of known libraries, but it's not exhaustive. The attached webm shows all the dependencies I had to remove in my test project before `vend get` managed to run to conclusion without an error.

A note on spinneret: It existed in vend's *sources* plist, but spinneret/ps had a test dependency on serapeum/unlocked which did not exist. That's why I had to remove it.

I suppose I could go into vendored/ myself and `git clone` the missing parts, but it might not be trivial for some of these systems that have a lot of dependencies.

>>106551045
My main motivation for giving vend a try was that I wanted to use a fork of hunchensocket that has a valuable bug fix that makes hunchensocket work on a lot of Chromium-derived browsers.
https://github.com/dtenny/hunchensocket/tree/chunga-keyword-fix
https://github.com/joaotavora/hunchensocket/pull/46

What's the best practice for declaring a dependency on a fork of a library?

>>106550988
I’d start by cloning “which-key” and replace the list it returns with lists you make when you start typing certain job-related words (similar to apropos, but a hand-crafted list).

>>106551183
which-key's UI is nothing like dired or ibuffer, though.

>>106544684
I'm guessing that using Emacs server, emacsclient and ssh would work. Both of you would need to connect to the computer using the same user.

>>106549487
Also Chicken Scheme's CRUNCH
https://www.more-magic.net/posts/crunch.html
https://wiki.call-cc.org/eggref/6/crunch

Anyone know what I need to do to use Vulkan (vk wrapping) with glfw (Shinmera's wrapping) instead of an OpenGL context? Like if I try:
(defun app ()
(org.shirakumo.fraf.glfw:init)
(let ((window (make-instance 'org.shirakumo.fraf.glfw:window :width 1000 :height 1000 :title "App"
:client-api :no-api :resizable nil)))
(loop until (org.shirakumo.fraf.glfw:should-close-p window) do
(org.shirakumo.fraf.glfw:poll-events))
(org.shirakumo.fraf.glfw:destroy window)
(org.shirakumo.fraf.glfw:shutdown)))

Then I get the error:
GLFW call to MAKE-CONTEXT-CURRENT failed with NO-WINDOW-CONTEXT:
Cannot make current with a window that has no OpenGL or OpenGL ES context
[Condition of type ORG.SHIRAKUMO.FRAF.GLFW:GLFW-ERROR]

>>106547747
>it shits itself when predicate expects a list as an argument
LOL
That's what I get when I try to check for type errors using a functional approach. Very well, c-space c-w it is. I'll do it later.

>>106546482
Because McCLIM fucking sucks and lispers are in denial about it

>>106551141
You really shouldn't be using that at all. Chunga does this because otherwise a harmful actor could spam your server with randomly generated headers and eventually your process runs out of memory and crashes.

Is there a repo/site that curates and gathers lisp mascots and lisp propaganda images and fanart?
Also are there any cute Scheme mascots?

>>106553078
I couldn't find an example using vk, initializing Vulkan with glfw will resemble this tho:
https://github.com/lonelydevil/vulkan-tutorial-C-implementation/blob/main/main.c
and apparently vk offers some abstractions compared to native C:
>E.g. where you would have to write the following in C++ (without VulkanHpp) to get all GPUs on a computer:
std::vector devices;
uint32_t count = 0;

// first get the number of available devices
VkResult res = vkEnumeratePhysicalDevices(instance, &count, nullptr);

// then get the devices
devices.resize(count);
res = vkEnumeratePhysicalDevices(instance, &count, devices.data());
You can just write the following with vk:
(let ((devices (vk:enumerate-physical-devices instance)))
;; do something with your devices
)

Does someone have a repo with elegant, optimized or well organized solutions to advent of code in Scheme?
I like solving the years myself and afterwards looking at the solutions of better/smarter people than me.

>>106556857
>>E.g. where you would have to write the following in C++ (without VulkanHpp) to get all GPUs on a computer:
VulkanHpp is unbelievably shit. It takes 10 times the effort to equivalent vulkan.h code. How did they even fuck up this bad?

>>106554418
>Because McCLIM fucking sucks

Care to elaborate?

>>106560220
Not that anon, but I've tried running the McCLIM demos in the past, and a significant number of them didn't even run or crashed. I don't know if the situation has improved since maybe a year ago when I tried this, but it didn't leave a good first impression.

https://codeberg.org/McCLIM/McCLIM
https://mcclim.common-lisp.dev/posts/Migration-to-Codeberg.html

The guy who currently maintains it goes by jackdaniel in #commonlisp, and he's a helpful guy.

Coalton
>>106560422

>>106560301
I tried the McCLIM demos not too long ago and all the ones I tried ran smoothly.
>>106560220
McCLIM is actually breddy gud software and well in the spirit of lisp systems.

>>106560484
@stylewarning has an interesting origin story. He never went to college, and his first programming job was a lisp job circa 2010.

>>106519611
vertico + consult + orderless + marginalia is the way to go

consult-buffer and consult-imenu are way better than their default counterparts

>>106554546
Look at the patch more carefully. It doesn't try to bypass Chunga. It's just making sure the data coming back from Chunga is a symbol instead of a mix of strings and symbols which broke hunchensocket on a lot of browsers.

>>106560323
>McCLIM
https://codeberg.org/mmontone/mold-desktop

>>106561877
Yes, and that will intern those strings as symbols in the keyword package. Interned symbols are never garbage collected.

>>106563106
Mold uses clog dough

I've been reading about arena memory management, and just realized that that's literally what "functional programming" is. Continuations and closures are just dynamically allocated callstacks. The reason you can trivially implement threads with them is that they basically ARE threads, they're the exact same memory structure.
Also all multithreaded code is literally just a stack of stacks.
I'm also like 80% sure processes work the same way, making a computer just a recursive stack made of stacks of stacks of stacks.

Aside from that it's just a really neat memory allocation strategy, doesn't require any real thought and eliminates like 99% of all bugs and complexity. It's basically free sandboxing and garbage collection rolled into one and implemented with like 10 lines.

>>106509131
>Progrock a progress bar for long running builds
It's very professional of him to list his dependencies and why, but some of these are node js modular. This one is only 107 lines of code.

>>106563254
I see now. It's such a small risk in practice, but it could happen.

>>106555589
I think you're going to have to make one yourself.

>>106544171
It's just the fucking renderer, I swear the anti webshit autists are insufferable, the point of having a backend and frontend to the editor means that you could implement a gui with different stacks and keep functionality.
imo the main drawback of Lem is that the author seems to be in a love/hate relationship with javascript, the guy claims to hate javascript but will dedicate unglodly amount of hours to be able to use it through his own CL to Js compiler (valtan), on the plus side this might lead to eliminate the need to write Js on the webview frontend, but we're still far from that. And the other day he was fucking around vibecoding React shit, AND he's japanese so of course he fucking sucks at documenting his code. I swear if Vindarel wasn't around I would've dropped Lem a long time ago, for now I'm steadily learning CL so that I can make whatever the fuck I want with it, maybe make a CLOG frontend and make the ultimate Coalton dev environment.

>>106555589
Scheme mascot would be the pseudo-nazi uniform anime girl.
>inb4 "pseudo?"

Learning common lisp and I'm getting the impression that there's a lot of shit that can be done with the loop macro, I'm trying to get a sense of when it's appropiate to use it, so far tried converting a vector to a plist and then deduplicating on two keys, then fetching a single key and returning a sorted version of it.
Only issue so far is that the syntax is different, but as long as the errors are readable I'm okay with learning it.

Btw, anyone knows of good resources to learn the repl? I've heard people saying you can do profiling and stepping etc, but I'm a lowly 'using format to print shit and debug' kinda guy.

>>106564900
>loop macro
It would be accurate to call it a domain-specific language in its own right
>when it's appropriate to use it
this is a bit of a debate with some saying just don't use it and others say use it for everything
it's a bit of a matter of taste

>>106550988
If you're going to end up making a buffer with a table, I recommend vtable over tabulated-list-mode