So, the modern day Jews are the same people as the Israelites in the Bible because they say so? I'm not saying this is wrong but can someone help me understand this.

>>17774816 (OP)
No, they only claim to be. Most people just never question it for some reason.

>>17774816 (OP)
Yeah. Ive never seen a family lineage document for any of them. Earliest they go is the middle ages. Jesus the jew has a family tree in the gospel but every non-christian disputes it.

they're the "same" in that they have levantine DNA and practice the biblical religion without omitting parts of it because it was "fulfilled"
they're different in that ashkenazi jews are mutted euros and groups like reform "jews" omit parts of the religion because it's not progressive or something

>>17775488
>without omitting parts of it
Wheres their temple?

>>17775490
>because it wasn't "fulfilled"
there, finished the sentence
if you bothered to read the one right below it i included that they omit parts of it for different and stupider reasons

>>17775488
>practice the biblical religion
No, the Babylonian Talmud is not the Bible.

>>17775493
correct
the talmud and the torah are different, good of you to notice

>>17775495
>the talmud and the torah are different, good of you to notice
The Babylonian Talmud (sometimes erroneously called the 'torah she'beal peh') is a gnostic-era document, influenced by the medieval gnostics that preceded it. In truth, neither the so-called Mishnah nor Gemarah have anything to do with any part of the Bible – despite what that cult now claims, modern Judaism does not follow any part the Bible at all, it is based on the Babylonian Talmud only.

>>17775498
it would indeed be erroneous to call the talmud the "oral torah" because those are also different yes
i tried looking up sanhedrin 64a as per the last post and got a different result as to what the image said
i've never met anyone convinced by a 4chan argument so i'm pretty sure continuing to reply after this would be a waste of our time, or mine at least

>>17775507
>i'm pretty sure continuing to reply after this would be a waste of our time
Anon, your posts have so far been inundated, saturated with so much pilpul, that there is no point in trying to have a good faith dialogue, although I would theoretically always be open to one. Looking at your first sentence in your most recent post however, that seems to not be possible. At this point, all your posts are good for is springboards from which I can post the truth for others to see.

>>17774816 (OP)
Jews are clearly from the Near East, it's in their genes. They aren't European converts or whatever.

>>17775498
Talmud has nothing to do with gnosticism lmao

It has everything to do with your Christian bible/Torah that says Jews are gods chosen

>>17775513
Not even that guy, but you're clearly biased and most likely an antisemite. Your sources are all anti-Jewish and hardly reliable.

>>17775498
>Michael Anthony Hoffman II (born January 2, 1957)[1] is an American author. He has been described as a conspiracy theorist, Holocaust denier[2] and anti-semite.[3]
Laughable, really. You don't have anything better?

>>17775518
>>17775520
"I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan."
- Revelation 2:9

"Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee."
- Revelation 3:9

These are the authoritative sources on this subject.

>>17775523
No, these are passages from the New Testament. You're just another proselytizing schizo, not someone genuinely interested in historical discussion.

>>17775531
>No, these are passages from the New Testament.
They are more authoritative than anything you can come up with. I could also reference the different antichrist-related passages, but that would refer to a larger group of heresies, because there are others who deny Christ but do not LARP as Jews.

>not someone genuinely interested in historical discussion.
Authentic history I am interested in. But pilpul and presuppositionalist atheism, no, even if it calls itself historical. It isn't.

>>17774816 (OP)
They're a mixture of ancient Jews and Slavs

>>17775539
They have more Italian ancestry.

There was an interesting study about 14th century Jews from Erfurt. I think they found them in some mass grave.
They were similar to modern Ashkenazis, but not quite the same. They found two clusters, one more European, the other more Middle Eastern, modern Ashkenazis are somewhat between them.

>>17774816 (OP)
Pretty much every Jew in Rome was slaughtered from 70 - 136 AD. From then on, Jews scattered into a diaspora with pocket communities popping up in Egypt, Africa and Europe. During this time, the religion it was slowly bastardized over time by Gnostics and false rabbis. Since then, "Jews" have been exiled or genocided from 109 different nations in history.

Yet somehow, the same group today that calls themselves "Jews" has managed to maintain blood ties to the same group that has been slaughtered several times over throughout history, and has certainly not made any major belief changes to their core theology in that time.

>>17774816 (OP)
It doesn't matter anyway, Gods new covenant is with the gentiles.

>>17775523
>"I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan."

>wewuz the REAL JEWS

>>17774816 (OP)
>So, the modern day Jews are the same people as the Israelites in the Bible because they say so?

Have you looked at the rules inasmuch as considering them godglad/godlyclad binding?

Have you read & translated the things you have to do to be considered righteous – by their rigorous standards?
It's maddening, especially if some outsiders want to join. The anxiety of being mocked or taken advantage of is sky-high.
I never went through it because I don't care to be one in the first place.

I've watched, out of curiosity, what & how they celebrate various events, since I'm not a Jew.

The procedural sequences you have to do, say, do while you say is mind boggling.
No comfortable/casual clothes.
That tiny head cap that doesn't protect you from sunlight (apropos of UV light & climate warming) from nothing except falling off your head.
Endless, endless talks & arguing — all ending with “God said so” or “God established it as such”.

It's a religion that takes advantage of you if you risk being left behind as the metaphorical village idiot.

And the arguing, endless arguing, everything is a mental barrage if you don't know how to counter-riposte — their pastime is having the last word and be correct about it.
No errors, because exceptions are bound only in various (almost endless) circumstantial situations; ex. “You're not allowed to do/eat this... unless you're under duress in this specific niche example, in which case you're allowed to do/eat, according to paragraph 26, number 96, letter h, tractate 7(b), as said by rabbi Saul ben Sakkay from this village that doesn't exist anymore. After you do it, although God forgives you for doing it, you still must take a ritual bath for three weeks, while praying specific prayers that Solomon did before he was allowed to sleep with his wife again.”

>>17774816 (OP)
The main population in Israel does not keep the torah. So if they really are Israelites then they are screwed and about to experience the curse of Moses. If they are not Israelites then they are the oppressors of the Israelites who could ve the Palestinians who are currently experiencing the curse of Moses and being exiled.

Either way the wrath of God will fall on Israel first and then the rest of the world.

>>17775488
This. If christianity is gzdoom, rabbinical judaism is like, prboom+

>>17774816 (OP)
>>17776033

>I'm not saying this is wrong but can someone help me understand this.

A religion that asserts the existence of a single Creator, inventing (imposing!) rules & subrules for themselves to follow, only to then becoming simulation exercises on how to break those rules & subrules to not anger their interpretation of that single wrathful Creator.

What's the safety net to keep them together, in this convolution?
That their interpretation of the Creator chose them as a people to follow those maddening rules & subrules, for them to become above others. If they don't, “...pffft, you're still a Jew because your momma was a Jew, and her mother, and her mother's mother, all the way to the wife of of the patriarch... unless some other subgroup considers you illegitimate because you forgot to celebrate Passover that one time.”

Again - following the rules & subrules, to then finding explanations to bending those very same rules in a mental simulacria, back n' forth, that nobody forced them to follow – except their interpretation of the Creator, by their attestations.
Who does that!?
Why am I the “goy” for you to cut your healthy boy's prepuce?!
Or pass your sins through a chicken & crumbs of bread??


So yeah, I believe them to be the same Jews as during their ancestors wandering in that region with their sheep, bovines, and goats.

>>17775488
>they're the "same" in that they have levantine DNA and practice the biblical religion
Correct. By every measure that isn't post-Second Temple propraganda from Christians and Muslims, we're the trunk of the Abrahamic family tree.

>>17775482
I came to /his/ today looking to see if there's a genealogy thread here, but family trees are the opposite of anonymous and I was expecting not to find it.

As far as I can tell, the Holocaust, and European antisemitism more broadly, destroyed a lot of genealogical data and permanently bottlenecked such efforts. Headstones can't be transcribed and collated into family trees when they're turned into spolia, nor could death records be read when they've been deliberately destroyed. There are Jewish family trees stretching back further, but the ones I've seen belong to rabbinic dynasties or Jews with connections to European courts.

>>17774816 (OP)
The short answer is: yes.

A longer but still brief answer is: for people who didn't convert into Judaism, or are other weirdos self-identifying as Jews with no Jewish lineage; the genetic, archaeological, and historical evidence generally supports that the Jews of today are descended from the Roman Judaens, who themselves claimed descent from the Israelites of the Torah. Because most of the converts to Judaism are marrying a Jew and having Jewish kids, they're as Jewish as anyone else and their kids will share our genetic markers as well. There also exist non-Jews who descended from the same Roman Judaeans, including but not limited to modern-day Palestinians.

>>17775828
This guy gets it

>>17776083
All modern day organizations that fall under "Judaism" are basically a cult like the JW or Scientology. The cult leaders make their subjects do all kinds of unnecessary rituals and inconvenient things. There is an illusion that things were always done the way that the current cult leader, who is issuing commands, does them now. In actuality it's really just some cult leader calling himself "rabbi" (which goes against Matthew 23:8-10) and creatively making up all these things as he goes.

That is the substance of all this. The difference with other cults is mainly superficial. Judaism has the fact that they impersonate Biblical Jews, and they sometimes carry around scrolls which have the books of Moses which they never actually read.

The act of impersonating Biblical Jews gets their cult a lot of "street cred" which they don't actually deserve. This is because they think they can say "I'm a Jew" and no one will ever question it. All of this is an incentive can be used as a way of retaining cult members (and their money) who might decide to leave the cult later.

>>17776191
>for people who didn't convert into Judaism, or are other weirdos self-identifying as Jews with no Jewish lineage;
That's technically all of them, because Judaism itself was founded as an offshoot of gnostic heresy in the middle ages. That's why the Talmud has a dualistic cosmology with deity figures that have names like "Metatron." This is a name borrowed from gnostic literature, namely 3 Enoch. That's also why the Talmud teaches reincarnation, which is another belief they got from gnosticism.

>the genetic, archaeological, and historical evidence generally supports that the Jews of today are descended from the Roman Judaens,
If 100% of them fall into the exclusion category you mentioned in the beginning (those self-identifying as Jews with no Jewish heritage), then you can say anything of the remaining 0%.

How would Sephardi Jews play into all of this? I’ve heard some anons say that Ashkenazi Jews are the biblical pretender Jews, and that Sephardi Jews are the real biblical Jews.
Or is that just /pol/ slop?

>>17775474
Who cares what they claim to be? Why are we wasting billions of dollars on these parasites?

>>17775482
They didn't even have family names until Napoleon forced them to get civilized

>>17774816 (OP)
Well they aren't the same people, but it's pretty solidly established they are their descendants, both through genes, culture, etc.
Movements attempting to disprove the Jewishness of the Jews are very common and date back centurie snow. If what they said had any currency they would have managed to make at least some inroads by now.

>>17776734
Basically /pol/ slop. Although a very odd form of it. The connection between the two communities is pretty well defined. And as far as non-religious anti-semitism goes there isn't much difference between the two.

>>17776741
They (secular, integrated Jews) kind of memed a large amount of American Christians into thinking their little nation project was in the book of revelation.

>>17776797
This happened because of Cyrus Scofield and his influential footnotes which contained doctrines of "dispensationalism."

This version of the Bible was funded by unknown sources and ended up becoming the standard curriculum in many seminaries in the 20th century. Nowadays, increasing amounts of people are realizing what happened and putting the pieces together about this.

>>17776826
This. See the bottom of picrel

>>17776833
Jesus.......thanks for the redpills anon.

I thought I couldn't hate southerners even more than I already did.

>>17776826
Some of their cousins in England started the subversion even earlier. That's where the word 'jew' first appears in the Bible in the XVII century AD.

>>17776731
>That's technically all of them, because Judaism itself was founded as an offshoot of gnostic heresy in the middle ages
This is a conspiracy theory I haven't heard before, one unsupported by the aforementioned data. Beyond the aforementioned genetic studies of Jews and historical records militating against whatever source claims this, mezuzot, mikvaot, and other artefacts that were not adopted by gnostic Christians have been found long before and after the advent of Christianity with no evidence of discontinuity or association with anyone but Jews.

>>17776734
Sephardi Jews traveled with the Moors to Spain, and one of history's foremost rabbis, Maimonides, was among them. They share our genetic markers, texts, and beliefs, but differ from Ashkenazim in customs, or what Christians might call a "rite," with slightly different rulings on specific subjects such as whether we can eat rice during Passover. They're as Jewish as Ashkenazi Jews, Mizrahi Jews, Beta Israelim, and the other diaspora communities.

>>17776103
Practically nobody who isn't descended from literal noblemen can trace their genealogy to beyond the late Middle Ages because the records were long since lost. Jews aren't unique in this. Ashkenazim genetically descend from a few dozen Jewesses in the Rhineland who lived in the 11th century. Modern Jews in general are a mix of the actual Bible Israelites, the occasional convert (it was common around the time of Jesus), and gentile slaves and servants of Jews forced into the faith (there are many records of this and famous sermons about it like St John Chrysostom).

>>17777041
>This is a conspiracy theory I haven't heard before
It's still *true* whether you want to call me a conspiracist or not. The Talmud wasn't written until long after the events of the first century, and it was originally composed by people who borrowed from both Gnostic and Zoroastrian mysticism. Modern Judaism is entirely about the Talmud and has nothing to do with believing or following any part of the Bible, despite what they would have you believe.

To this cult, the Babylonian Talmud overrules everything.

Furthermore, all you have to do to see the gnostic connection is take note of the similarities in the dualist cosmologies. Not only do they share deity names with gnostic literature, both belief systems also teach that good and evil are equal and opposing forces, which is dualist cosmology. This is entirely against what the Bible teaches. There are many examples of this and it can't really be argued against, without sinking to intellectual dishonesty about the subject, which is what many do. See pic as one example.

>>17777047
>They share our genetic markers,
The Palestinians are really going to be the closest genetically to the ancient Judeans.

The fallacy here is that you keep going back and forth between genetic and ideological definitions of what you think Jews are. In objective standards, modern people who claim to be Jews have no connection to the ancient Jews mentioned in the Bible. They share as much genetic similarity to ancient Jews as any random person you would find Lithuania or Poland.

You can argue modern groups that call themselves Jews have similarities between them, but that's because they were based on the same gnostic cult originally. They've simply developed or grown into different factions. One large faction is based on Eastern European pagans who were converted in the middle ages for example. They still have nothing to do with Biblical or ancient Jews. I don't care how much you have emotionally invested in thinking they do.

>>17777080
>Falsehood
>Here is some commentary from a mysticist Kabbalist Rabbi about what some sages said
>TRUTH: here is what some Christian wrote as is written in my counterfeit Tanakh DLC
Fag, lmao.

>>17777104
What it says in Hebrews is consistent with everything else in the Bible. There's your difference, anon.

>>17777115
According to the truthful, correct, and veridical interpretation which is the one we happen to believe, of course. The truth is the standard by which we judge the truth, making for a neat little circle far away from reality.

>>17777127
>The truth is the standard by which we judge the truth,
Actually, the truth is the standard by which we judge anything else. For believers, the truth itself is self-evident. See John 8:47, John 18:37b.

Jesus said, "Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice." He was right. Whoever is of the truth recognizes Him as God. If you don't, it means you are not of the truth.

>>17774816 (OP)
>Jews aren't the Jews of the Bible
>Also the Jews are Satanic and killed Jesus because it says they did in the Bible
At least Nazi antisemitism made sense. Christcucks are just retarded.

>>17777141
>At least Nazi antisemitism made sense.
Historically speaking, Hitler was funded by zionists in the 1920s and the Nazis did the Haavara agreement.

>>17777080
>It's still *true* whether you want to call me a conspiracist or not
No, your conspiracy theory couldn't be further from the truth, which is why your reply entirely sets aside genetic evidence, historical accounts, archaeological records, fundamental concepts shared by all Jewish rites and denominations, and so on, resting instead on one unprovenanced textual critique comparing a Chabad halakhist (Halakhah is not the Talmud, by the way) to a New Testament epistle from Paul (who, as far as I'm aware, turned in his Jew card and was not a Gnostic either). Nonsense from top to bottom.

>>17777149
Historically speaking Jesus is a jew.

>>17777157
Yes, if you accept that translation of the term "Ioudaios" from Greek. However, the modern people who claim to be Jews have nothing to do with the Biblical Jews.

>>17776089
>>17776103
>>17776191
Tripfaggots get the rope first, literally go back to r3ddit dot com where you can bask in your special attention for having a special name you feminine queer

>>17777159
Cool. Why would anyone pray to an ancient sand nigger?

>>17777161
We pray to God, the Creator of all things, in the name of Jesus, who is God incarnate and is risen
Get your facts straight before fedora posting please

>>17777163
Jesus was born to a human woman so hes a demi god.

>>17774816 (OP)
They aren't. They've been disconnected for so long that both their genetics and their teachings have deviated from their old selves.
Their genetic profile is the same as Sardinians. They have less semitic DNA than even Italians, despite Italians not setting foot in the Levant.
They aren't even monotheistic anymore.
None of this means they are lesser/greater people o algo, but it's not correct to call a hippo a horse.
>>17775514
> It's in their genes.
Their genes clearly show that they don't belong in the Middle East.

>>17777166
Are you 50% your mother and 50% your father?
Is there a bold line of distinction where one begins and the other ends?
Or does blending each of your parents' genes create a perfect synthesis of the two, ending up with a completely unique creature with attributes of both but still complete in its own right?

>>17777178
Thats how children work dude

>>17777179
Yes exactly
So Jesus is fully God and fully human
Thanks for allowing me to clear that up

>>17777170
As soon as you point to studies showing how genetically unrelated they are, they start to go back to arguing that they are the spiritual successors of the ancient Jews, which is also demonstrably false as well. But you see them and their apologists keep vacillating back and forth between definitions to somehow "make it fit" because they have developed an emotional attachment and can't simply handle the truth.

>>17777160
>newfag who found 4chan in 2017 demands a tripfag who found 4chan before Reddit existed to go "back"
Typical godless larper. I accept your concession.

>>17777170
This argument is just as nonsensical as >>17777080's speculation about genetic studies, hinging on novel mutations and not actual genetic studies of Jews (one of which I posted in >>17777151).

>>17777188
All of their supporters in this thread have not presented anything concrete. It is all just insane schizodrivel that doesn't fall in line with what ANY school of academia has proven.
If they want to claim their stake in blood, just focus on that. Don't worry about lying to people who have actually done their homework on the subject.
It's especially preposterous when you realize that the whole reason why these people were able to affirm the support of gentiles is specifically because these modern Jews were able to differentiate themselves as "whites who love democracy" against "evil" "Arabic" Muslims.
>>17777202
Your own studies show that your genetics fall in the Turko-Iranian sphere. Do you really think you're Semitic because you overlap with Turko-Iranics like the Druze? You do realize that they're not Semitic at all, right?

>>17777202
Kys tripnigger I ain't reading your blog you useless queer
You are not important and literally nobody cares what you think you estrogenated faggot

>>17777222
>Your own studies show that your genetics fall in the Turko-Iranian sphere. Do you really think you're Semitic because you overlap with Turko-Iranics like the Druze? You do realize that they're not Semitic at all, right?
Nice post number. The study I posted in >>17777151 puts Turks and Iranians into regions of origin that do not overlap with Jews. Try reading instead of pretending to read.

>>17777462
>>17777151
I know, they are nice numbers.
I did read it. It's a poor map that's all over the place. That bubble with Druze should be with the Georgian bubble, but it isn't because clearly someone that's ignorant made it.
You are banking on Yemenite jews being in the Arab bubble, but you're forgetting that Yemeni Jews actually stayed in the region and didn't flee to the steppe and wash away their own genes. What little claim they have does not extend to European migrants who cannot even live in the area without sunscreen.
Which is what this thread is about. Modern Jews, like you Ashkenazi, are unrecognizable from your predecessors.
You are white now. There are no refunds. Exceptions cannot be made.

>>17777069
As far as I can tell, you're mostly correct, and given the mostly low quality of this thread, that's laudable. I only differ with you on this point:
>Jews aren't unique in this.
Most of the Jewish family trees I've read on Ancestry.com hit the brick wall around 1850 or so. Within former Galicia and the Pale of Settlement, I've yet to see a record in my family tree's Jewish branches predating the 19th century, and I know for a fact that one of those shtetls (Sadagore; then in Galicia, now in Ukraine) escaped the Holocaust otherwise unscathed. For another of my ancestors' shtetls (Chodorow), I have two 1883 home ownership records matching two of my ancestors. That shtetl was annihilated by the Nazis in 1942, and its Jewish cemetery was overbuilt by Ukranians after 1991 with the headstones moved to who-knows-where, and there doesn't seem to be much else in terms of genealogical data. Had I been able to get all the way to the Middle Ages from here, I'd be delighted.

>>17777506
>That bubble with Druze should be with the Georgian bubble, but it isn't because clearly someone that's ignorant made it.
The genetic study indeed found that the Druze community does not overlap with Armenians and Georgians; that your expectations are not confirmed does not make the study ignorant of anything. Instead the Druze seem to overlap with Sephardi, Ashkenazi, and Mizrahi Jews, Syrians, and Levantine gentiles. Ashkenazi Jews cover a wide genetic distance that approaches Europeans but never overlaps with them by Behar's methodology.
>you're forgetting that Yemeni Jews actually stayed in the region and didn't flee to the steppe and wash away their own genes
No, I'm aware that the Yemenite Jews lived in Yemen before the Second Temple period and remained there until the modern state of Israel was founded. Their genetic distance from the rest of the Jewish world is interesting, as is their relatively low "genetic area" by this methodology given that they remained in contact with the rest of the Jewish world, but they're not crucial to either of our arguments here. Instead, since you're having trouble, I'll point you to all the Jews, in magenta, falling within the orange dotted line demarcating genetic kinship with Levantine non-Jewish populations by this methodology, as I mentioned above. Further, the Samaritans, despite having never left the Levant, are closer to most Jews than they are to the Palestinians; I'm not sure how that should be explained, but I'll be damned if it's not fascinating.

>>17777583
The way that french and english try to divided the Middle East is clearly done to fit everyone in their own definitions of nations. No one wants what they're selling.
>all the Jews ... falling within the orange dotted line demarcating genetic kinship with Levantine non-Jewish populations by this methodology
Anyone can set up the post and kick a goal with minimal effort.
But even then, your own study shows that there is more distance between Druze and actual Semites than there is between Turks, Georgians, and Europeans.