Thread 17832257

Why did Job continue to love God even when he made his life terrible? Job, the righteous man, who 100% did not deserve it. Doesn't this story just prove that God is an egotistical scumbag, who ruined Job's life over a bet?

>B-But he gave him a new family after!
Oh look the incel who will never have children or a wife says family is replaceable

>>17832258
You say that like it's not a perfectly reasonable question. Especially in the case of Job, where it's revealed that God ruined his life/let Satan ruin his life, literally to demonstrate his own glory with zero regard for Job.

EVERYONE in the Bible went through absolute shit
The Messiah is right there on the cross and he said outright that all who follow him will suffer the same fate.

The message is simple: Have faith in God's plan
Everything shall turn out amazing in the end

>>17832257 (OP)
The book of Job is a fiction, sort of a "lead by example" fable

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Job

>>17832257 (OP)
>Why
You could read the book.

>>17832438
Enjoy Hell

>>17832262
Here's the answer:
Because Heaven was at risk

Satan accused Job of being a bootlicker
If God did not allow Satan to test him, then it would sow doubts into the angels.
Thus, he had to allow it at least for some time

>>17832257 (OP)
maybe it has something to do with seeing the world as beautiful regardless of losing everything that you posess

on the other hand Job has cursed the day that he was conceived and the day that he was born

>>17832257 (OP)
>Why did Job continue to love God even when he made his life terrible?

Stockholm syndrome. Cults are fucking dangerous

>>17832257 (OP)
>Job, the righteous man, who 100% did not deserve it.
One of the main things the story does is point out that "this was deserved for XYZ" is simplistic theology that isn't going to mislead you just as Job's friends were misled and ultimately rebuked. Suffering is here not interpreted in terms of sanctions, but in terms of opportunity: by maintaining a sober judgement and an honest faith through much pain, Job becomes one of the holiest characters of the OT.
>God appears to Job (!)
>God tells various secrets to Job (such as about behemoth)
>Job is implied to have valuable prayers almost like a priest (Job 42:8-9)
>Job gets back everything he had + double livestock + lives for 140 years
It might sound unimpressive to an atheist, but becoming one of the few people on the OT who have seen God in person and becoming closer to Him is perhaps the single best thing that could happen to OT Jew, especially since all his life was restored.

>family is replaceable
In this story, it is. If your modern mind finds offense with this, imagine it as his wife leaving with the kids and him getting a new wife afterwards, there seems to be very few objections against that type of family replacement today...

Because it's a sick sadistic story designed to normalize abuse

>god promises covenant blessings
>turns out this was a lie

>job was blameless and obeyed god so he was promised protection and blessing
>turns out this was a lie

>god say he cursed satan to wander earth
>turns out this was a lie

>god says satan is his enemy
>turns out this was a lie

when confronted the jewgod just throws a narcissistic fit and callously replaces what job lost like an inhuman retard

>>17832497
tb.h i was looking forward to answers from faithful people

>>17832497
God cursed the devil, not the satan. Those are two different characters. And the satan is nowhere in the OT declaring to be God's "enemy".

>>17832503
satan and the devil are the same entity in the NT

so do you denounce the gospels?

>>17832502
they will just gaslight you into worshiping the semetic dimensional parasite

>>17832510
Satan is a role. It means "accuser". That's why sometimes you see "satan" and sometimes "the satan", depending on whether it's merely an accuser or the particular accuser we worry about. In the New Testament you could argue that many entities are called satan (including Peter) but this doesn't change the OT picture, it develops it with new connotations. If you have a specific verse that you don't think lends itself to this usage, I'll be glad to look at it.

>>17832257 (OP)
It was the ruling class' way of telling literal dirt-poor Palestinian peasants that their suffering was God's will and that even if the circumstances were grim they still had to follow the Torah since in the end God would vindicate them. Now this part will make you laugh. If you read the ending of Job it is clear that the author implied that God effectively had to pay a thief's restitution to Job, double everything that he had taken.
>After Job had prayed for his friends, the Lord restored his fortunes and gave him twice as much as he had before.
>Anyone who steals must certainly make restitution, but if they have nothing, they must be sold to pay for their theft. If the stolen animal is found alive in their possession—whether ox or donkey or sheep—they must pay back double.
>If anyone gives a neighbor silver or goods for safekeeping and they are stolen from the neighbor’s house, the thief, if caught, must pay back double. But if the thief is not found, the owner of the house must appear before the judges, and they must determine whether the owner of the house has laid hands on the other person’s property. In all cases of illegal possession of an ox, a donkey, a sheep, a garment, or any other lost property about which somebody says, ‘This is mine,’ both parties are to bring their cases before the judges. The one whom the judges declare guilty must pay back double to the other.

>>17832257 (OP)
Because he was just a man of inconditional devotion. He loved and worshipped God because he was God, not because of what he had bestowed him, or what God could do for him. As for God, he only really let it happen disprove his acussing angel, prove his faithfulness.
>Oh look the incel who will never have children or a wife says family is replaceable
In a world where death in Childbirth and Infant mortality were dreadfully common they were far more replaceable.

A cynical reading of the story would be that it was composed as a ploy by the Jewish priests during the centuries of Jewish Humilliation to mantain faith in YHWH.

>>17832589
Also, fun fact about Job: he and two others are the only gentile prophets in the bible. By that I mean prophet's to Gentiles. Though two were also Gentiles.

>>17832596
Job is a jewish name

>>17832600
I know. But the Character itself is not thought to be Jewish or of Jewish descent.

>>17832608
jewish diaspora

>>17832609
That didn't exist at the time, lmao. Jewish sources trace him as a descendant of Esau and Rabbinic folklore dates him to around the time of Exodus. Him being a gentile is not controversial stuff. Obadiah was also a gentile, for the record. And Jonah was Jewish but preached to the Assyrians.

>>17832418
>Have faith in God's plan
I have never gotten an explanation as to why would an omnipotent entity need a plan. we need plans because we have to navigate a maze of constraints. what constraints exist for an omnipotent god?

>>17832624
Jewish name

His friends worship the same god and not their local god

But he's some lone gentile

>>17832679
It's a common cult mechanism to destroy your ability to question and reason

>don't think just trust the plan

>>17832257 (OP)
Because the author wanted to make it very clear that Job was innocent. Imo the book is best understood as, if not an outright satire, then at least a an often-sarcastic moral tale teaching against prosperity theology and religiously-motivated victim-blaming generally, including that found elsewhere in the Bible.

Psalm 8:4-5
"What are humans that you are mindful of them, mortals that you care for them? Yet you have made them a little lower than the angels and crowned them with glory and honor."

Job 7:17-19
"What are humans, that you make so much of them, that you set your mind on them, visit them every morning, test them every moment? Will you not look away from me for a while, let me alone until I swallow my spittle?"

>>17832457
God is omniscient. He and heaven are never "at risk" of anything. Once again you fundamentally misunderstand what God is. This is silly.

>>17832257 (OP)
The tragedies Job experiences are the same as yours, Job is you, you will endure harships beyond comprehension, but if you keep faith you will have an eternal reward. The tragedies are non-negotiable, they are a part of life, and you can either capitulate to them or stay strong, Job remained strong and was rewarded, that is what the book of Job is about.

>>17832689
Archaeologically credible given there’s evidence of Bronze Age Yahweh worship in the Near East outside of the Israelites, particularly among the other Canaanites like the Edomites. Likewise everyone in the Old Testament has a Hebrew name, including Cyrus (Koresh) who was definitely not Jewish as a matter of historical fact.

>>17832257 (OP)
The slave moralist normie views groveling towards superiors, even when they do bad to you, as good, because they are too cowardly, weak-willed, and socialized to advocate for themselves or fight against their enemies.

If this took place today, God would be calling Job a "fake Nice Guy" who should just be a heckin decent human being.

>>17832532
I keked. And they say God doesn't follow his own rules.

>>17832841
Based

Abrahamic slave morality

>>17832689
>Jewish name
Irelevant, everyone in the old testament has one of those, being the language it was originally written in.
>His friends worship the same god and not their local god
There's evidence for YHWH worship among other canaanites plus every religious source insists on him being a Gentile.
>But he's some lone gentile
I never said he was lone though. Just that he was a gentile.

>>17832791
God is. Not the angels

>be christian
>trust the plan
>focus on the afterlife
>get owned in the present

lol. Pathetic motherfuckers

>>17832949
Who's in charge of heaven, God or the angels?

>>17832952
Not how it works
God allows free will. If the angels had doubts about his love and omniscience, it would snowball into revolt
He had to let everyone test it for themselves

>>17832679
God's plan is for you and everyone

He has a plan installed that would grant you far greater glory than you can ever imagine, while at the same time, allowing others to be saved.

Every apostle went through shit, but, at the same time, it is through those shit times that they were able to create good things.

God doesn't do good despite evil. But through it.
Just have faith

>>17832967
He trusted the plan until he realized God wasn't going to step in to save him. LOL. Most useful sucker of them all though.

>>17832960
>Not how it works
Yes, it is. It's you who creates all this gay mental gymnastics around the concept of omnipotence. YHVH wasn't even originally omnipotent when the Bible was written, it was added later.

>>17832972
God did step in and save him, though. What are you talking about?

>>17832973
Everything was added later.
The apostles keep on seeing visions that added to their understanding of God and the messiah to come

Ultimately concluding with Jesus
It is still under construction today and the last installment shall be written on his return

>>17832974
There was no such thing as the resurrection. It didn't happen. There's a reason why the "eyewitness testimony" doesn't add up. At best, presuming the supernatural, a spirit came and deceived some of Jesus' followers. Paul was being tormented by demons. The early letters even imply it was a spiritual resurrection. Nothing physical, only the later gospels say it was, and the first one, Mark, says that the only people to hear the message of Jesus' resurrection ran off and didn't tell anyone. Crazy how that works. They told nobody but now we know about it.

>>17832984
Cope

>>17832980
>The apostles keep on seeing visions
Uh huh. But when someone else sees a vision it's lies from Satan.

>>17832989
Everyone thought the same thing until they backed it up with miracles and healings

Satan cannot heal, let alone ressurrect

>>17832993
>until they backed it up with miracles and healings
It's called magick.

>>17832995
Magic is powered by the devil
The devil cannot heal, resurrect, or exorcise. But they can do illusions of it

>>17833000
copium
>WHEN JESUS FLIES AND WALKS ON WATER IT'S NOT MAGIC NOOOOOO

>>17833021
If it is not from the devil, it isn't magic

>>17833000
>>17833021
why would God give powers to the devil, the alleged most evil being in existence anyway? Isn't God supposed to be 100% good? What's good about giving Satan magic powers and allowing him to deceive humans, who are much much stupider than angels?

>>17833022
>If it is not from the devil, it isn't magic
John Dee would disagree and I think he is much more knowledgeable about magic than you

>>17833023
Why would he give powers to you? A sinner? Because everyone is good in nature and deserves a chance to re-discover this nature once they lost it.
>much stupider than angels
Satan's deception isn't resolved by intelligence, it's resolved by humility

>>17833023
God is giving everyone a portion of his kingdom and all the glory of it, then he asks whether they wanted to use it according to his will or not

God gives his gifts first
He will never take it back

Satan was meant to be the head of the angels and rule alongside him
He is technically still ruling alongside him until the day of judgement

>>17832457
The story proves that Job is a bootlicker though.

>>17833054
No. He proved that Job's servitude to him was out of genuine love and respect. Not blind dogma

>>17833078
Why would you love a being who allowed your entire family to be killed for the sake of a bet?

>>17833078
No lol. If somebody abuses and you keep loving them, you're a bootlicker/doormat whatever. You're no better than those women who keep going back to the husband that beats them.

>>17833083
>I value the gift more than the giver

>>17833088
>giver
Abuser*

>>17833088
People who claim to love God more than their own children should have their children taken away from them and given to actual loving parents.

>>17833094
Giving you a family was abuse?

>>17833100
I disagree. Although I understand why a vaguely humanistic secular framework would produce this kneejerk emotional reaction.

>>17833111
It's not like it's relevant to you or like you could ever possibly understand, because you'll never have children.

>>17833111
>Giving you a family was abuse?
Taking them away (killing them) to win a bet with satan is abuse

>>17833113
Idk the stats are looking pretty well for theists natality

>>17833116
Right, so it wasn't abuse to give you a family. Or to give you another one... So when I originally said "I value the gift more than the giver" it kinda made sense.....

>>17833120
You cannot compare love for an invisible entity to love for your own child

>>17833124
>invisible Fathers don't count
Weird rule, but luckily the Father is made visible in the Son.
I don't expect you to understand why I would love someone who made me, made my parents, made my friends and maintains them in health, wealth and peace. If your love stays on the material or human level, that's good enough for me and I hope it grows.

>>17832257 (OP)
This is such a stupid way of looking at it that it makes me think a christian wrote it to purposefully make the other side look bad.
In reality the purpose of this life is to encourage people to endure their suffering and keep being good little citizens even when everything sucks because god rewards in the end.
In terms of internal critique and some sort of contradiction, it's not there. You can always rationalize it away. Job continues to love god because he has faith and knows there's a greater purpose at stake. No, this doesn't mean god all of a sudden has some human emotional characteristic, it just means there was a greater purpose at stake than your myopic view about one man's suffering.

>>17833127
The invisible father that kills his own children to win a bet with satan

>>17833153
He decides all deaths. It only sounds unjust when you presume he's not just.

>>17833158
slave mentality
>and that's a GOOD thing!!!

>>17833162
Slave menatlity lol. Maybe. It certainly isn't shaking your fist at the sky lamenting that God doesn't justify his decisions to you. After all, that's the point of Job.

>>17833166
A perfect being can communicate perfectly.

You know who doesn't? Abusive narcissists.

>>17833308
Literal God justifying himself to a 4chan dweller is not perfect communication.

And giving someone a family (and then another one) isn't abuse. Though again, like I wrote in >>17833127 and >>17833111, I don't expect atheists to respond in any way besides emotional kneejerks. Job probably felt bad in a given period so that makes his extremely fulfilling life overall the work of an abusive narcissist. Of course.

>>17833308
Also your jewgod failed his promises and word

The agreement was if you obeyed and worshiped him he would bless and protect you

Job was blameless in this regard. He held up his part of the bargain. That's why his friends kept victim blaming him because they believed your cosmic jew's promises. He MUST have done something so evil and wrong. When he was innocent all along.

Meanwhile in the background jewgod was just absolutely shitting all over his promises shitting all over his covenants just so he can play bets with satan and get some ego high.

You worship someone who proven untrustworthy and deceitful.

>>17833317
You're retarded. I'm glad your abuse cult is dying. Keep making excuses for the deranged. The fact you put so much effort into protecting a nonsensical abuser lends me to believe you are psychotic yourself. Never have kids I feel sorry for any of your children.

>>17833138
>In reality the purpose of this life is to encourage people to endure their suffering and keep being good little citizens even when everything sucks because god rewards in the end.
I disagree. The point of the story is that being righteous and following god does NOT reward you in itself. It is not a transaction. God fucks Job over despite him being a good man, and him rewarding Job in the end is not a consequence of Job being righteous or good.
It is a story meant to rationalize a world where bad things happen at random to good people, and good things happen to bad people, without rhyme or reason, and without silver lining.
>it just means there was a greater purpose at stake than your myopic view about one man's suffering.
I agree. The message of the story is "who do you think you are, your life is meaningless in the grand scheme of things, stop complaining, fucko"

>>17833321
>The agreement was if you obeyed and worshiped him he would bless and protect you
The covenant is that God will make a great nation from Abraham, that his descendants will be as the stars (in number and in status), that through them all nations will be blessed and that they will inherit the land of Canaan. That they would become a holy nation and the kingdom that God will establish will be everlasting.

I'm not sure where you read that God would never let you get injured or sick. The closest is Exodus 15:26: “If you will diligently listen to the voice of the Lord your God, and do that which is right in his eyes… I will put none of the diseases on you that I put on the Egyptians, for I am the Lord, your healer.” Which was not broken. The diseases put on Egyptians were literal and spiritual death.

You're trying to judge God whose reasoning you don't know whatsoever while getting the covenant wrong that is being re-stated over and over and over. I have no idea what makes you feel like a judge.

>>17833324
>gives family
>gives another
>makes Job even wealthier than before
>>>> nonsensical abuser
Ok.
>never have kids
I think I will.

>>17833338
>god fails his promises

Yep

>I killed your children
>Now I gave you 2 of each. Stop complaining
>This is supposed to be the wisdom of a loving god

I feel sorry for your kids

>>17833083
>>17833084
Your problem is that you are seeing it only in terms of wordly perspective. This is the exact thing that Jesus warned everyone about

Do not worship the world.

The fact that your family members were taken away doesn't mean that they are lost.
Have faith.

>>17833100
If you love God more than your children, you will raise them according to his will.

>>17832257 (OP) His life was difficult, not terrible. Whatever he had to face, he faced bravely, feeling pretty well in doing so. Job wasn't a weakling, with a victimist mentality.

>>17832257 (OP)
>Why did Job continue to love God even when he made his life terrible?
Inasmuch as he did so, he was right because our true loyalty should be to our actual Creator.

>Job, the righteous man, who 100% did not deserve it.
According to the Bible, all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. And it says that death came into the world because of sin. Every death is tragic, not just those of Job's children. What you bring up here really just folds back into the general problem of evil.

>Doesn't this story just prove that God is an egotistical scumbag, who ruined Job's life over a bet?
What your statement shows is how you don't view God with any respect, in order to believe that there is a greater purpose in the events of this book -- or in the world at large. But your view truly doesn't make sense: because as the Creator, God created everything, including all of us. If God is literally capable of creating everything from nothing, then God is also capable of being just. The God who created all things is clearly able to understand truths and realities that are beyond our capacity to understand. In other words, just because you're too dumb to see it, anon -- doesn't mean it's not real. As it says in Proverbs, "Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths." (Proverbs 3:5-6).

>>17832257 (OP)
Imagine a man named Boj, who god inflicts misery on throughout life, who then dies. This is the banal possible; and the likelier.

>>17832257 (OP)
>Why did Job continue to love God even when he made his life terrible?
He had the cuckold mindset.

>>17832960
>God allows free will.
Why? There's no evidence it even really exists nor does the idea of it make any sense, and it's used as an excuse to justify obviously bad things, so really, God should just get rid of it.

> If the angels had doubts about his love and omniscience, it would snowball into revolt
So? He could literally just delete them from reality with zero effort, or control their minds to make them obedient.

>>17834046
>our true loyalty should be to our actual Creator.
Source: Your ass

>>17832967
Oh come on, don't lie:
>I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things. (Issaiah 45:7)
As for Job, the morale of the story is, yes, innocent people suffer just because God decided so, yes, they have the right to point it is unfair and feel bad about it, not even for a second think you will be safe because you were good. Alas, persevere being good, not because what you may get but because it's the best thing a human being can do under dire circumstances, your inner self challenge against all the evil in the universe.

>>17832984
>he is still seething about some jew boy who decided to break the system even if it costed His life.
What is more, our species is still standing, the West and its chrstian heart has been given dominion and still holds it despite all the subversion and attacks from the powers of the World, the enemies of Man cannot stand before us.

>>17832257 (OP)
This story's purpose is to condition people lower on the totem pole to tolerate being completely fucked over by few in power.

>>17834111
Why not read the entire passage
This happened right after the destruction of the Temple
Israelites are being mocked that their god is weak and they are demanding an explanation

And here is God telling them outright that he takes responsibility for everything
God warned Israel over and over that if they continued their ways, he would lift his protection
Which is exactly what he did

And he is not defending his actions. He is taking full responsibility for allowing evil to happen. The only question you may ask is "why" and the answer is that every tragedies can be reversed to make good things greater

Joseph the dreamer's betrayal ended up landing him as the Pharoah's Vizer
Enslavement of Abraham's clan led to the creation of Israel and the Temple of Jerusalem
Jesus' crucifixion led to the salvation of mankind

This doesn't mean that he wants things to fall.
It just means that whatever bad things befall upon the faithful shall be turned into something magnificent.

Just have faith in his plans