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Thread 17919557

187 posts 60 images /his/
Anonymous No.17919557 >>17919562 >>17919565 >>17919602 >>17919613 >>17919853 >>17919863 >>17920104 >>17920202 >>17920207 >>17920860 >>17920891 >>17922477 >>17922927 >>17923188 >>17923489 >>17923728 >>17923732
I often heard about how male homosexuality was accepted in ancient Greece and Rome. But when looking at the sources, all of them refer to relationships between a man and boy rather than equal relationships between two males. On top, those sources don't portray them as normal, they are seen as an anomaly and/or as a topic of debate.
Wouldn't it be more accurate to say that pederastry was a topic with mixed reception in ancient Greece and Rome rather than associate homosexuality with pederastry?
Anonymous No.17919562 >>17919613 >>17919674 >>17919680 >>17919719 >>17919982 >>17920482 >>17920526 >>17922428 >>17923732
>>17919557 (OP)
homosexuality was generally accepted in greece but it was never considered explicitly “normal” it was always seen as kind of an odd fetish, similar to how footfags are today
i mean most of the greek city states used “boy-lover” as a perjorative against their rival, those Athenian boy-lovers, those spartan boy-lovers, etc

you wouldn’t murder someone for being attracted to feet (though you should) but the bigger issue was wether they were a top or a bottom
if you were a bottom you were infinitely more bullied
Anonymous No.17919565 >>17919575 >>17920891 >>17926227
>>17919557 (OP)
Aphrodite throws a hissy fit whenever a man spurns the advances of a woman, refuses to marry and holds a vow of chastity, or wants to live with another man of the same age. She's like a girl that likes to watch shows and movies to see the boy and girl get together otherwise she has no purpose in life.
Anonymous No.17919571 >>17919592 >>17919604
Pederasty was mistranslated by northern euros in the Renaissance or some shit to mean homosexuality. It doesn't mean homosexuality. A pederastic relationship was a mentor/pupil relationship and it was sort of the catch-all term for any kind of "classing up" of a child. Essentially these kids were learning the ins and outs of how to be an aristocrat or a military functionary. Theyre basically the equivalent of "page boys"
Anonymous No.17919575 >>17919576 >>17919818
>>17919565
Aphrodite if you can hear me please save me Aphrodite I’m asking you please save me please Aphrodite take my virginity away
Anonymous No.17919576 >>17919615 >>17919818 >>17923450
>>17919575
prayers to greek gods often come with a price
the monkey’s paw curls a decrepit finger
and your virginity will be taken from you in a way most foul
Anonymous No.17919592
>>17919571
>Yes, the understanding and representation of "pederasty" during the Renaissance, particularly in Northern Europe, were shaped by the resurgence of interest in classical Greek and Roman culture
>However, this period also saw a misunderstanding of the nuances and variations of the practice as it existed in antiquity
>It involved the transfer of knowledge, social values, and military training from the older male (erastes) to the younger (eromenos). Spartan pederasty was described as chaste
>Neoplatonism could idealize male-male affection within a framework that valued spiritual or intellectual love. This could lead to a sexualized representation of pederasty that might not fully reflect the complexities of the ancient practice
>While Renaissance artists and writers drew heavily on classical themes, their interpretations of pederasty were often colored by their own societal norms and values, which included a strong influence of Christianity and its condemnation of homosexuality. As a result, the didactic and mentorship aspects of pederasty might have been underemphasized or overlooked in favor of its sexual connotations.
seems faggots don't even have chat bots on their side
Anonymous No.17919602
>>17919557 (OP)
The way I see it is was like this: it was mostly pederasty, adult men were assfucking teenage boys, but it was also considered a deep emotional relatinship, which lasted until both parties grew older, as there are figures who are said to have been a pederastic couple but are also described as lifelong friends while both were married.

So the sexual part of the relationship may have been something encouraged in young-ish men before they got married, but even after that they would remain close, which may or may not have still included sex (adult men in some text make sexual innuendos with each other which could either mean 'remember when we fucked when we were younger' or 'remember when we fucked last night').
Anonymous No.17919604 >>17919614 >>17919627
>>17919571
>pederastic relationship was a mentor/pupil relationship
Yes, it was. And often it included sex.
Anonymous No.17919613
>>17919557 (OP)
>>17919562
Also: "ancient Greeks" means 100s of city states over more than 1000 years, so by definition any kind of blanket statement about them is false.

Sources about male-male sex in the Classical period flip-flop between condemnation and endorsement, but by the Roman period "Greek love" was a widespread concept, it was commonly accepted by Romans that the Greeks love fucking boys, so many "cultured" Romans did the same. So it looks like sometimes during Hellenism pederasty became widespread.
Anonymous No.17919614 >>17919625
>>17919604
Well homosexuals are pedophiles
Anonymous No.17919615
>>17919576
This is especially true of female deities. Its embedded in their core. Like they are made all wrong.
Anonymous No.17919625 >>17919690 >>17920494 >>17926109
>>17919614
Right, because nothing reminds me more of a child than a muscled man with hair on their bodies.
Meanwhile you heterosexual men are always yapping about 'no hymen no diamond', counting the years till a girl is 18 pretending like you wouldnt fuck her younger if the opportunity didnt present itself, honking at 12 year old girls out walking, popular musicians making songs about fucking tweens and underaged groupies, the popularity of sexualized young female singers and actors, how popular the jailbait stuff is...

Need I go on? Women are closer to children in appearance than men are; you straights like them hairless, you like them short, you like them with soft voices.

The most popular actress was Marilyn Monroe who men would obsess over her childlike vulnerability. Men are addicted to BPDs who have a tendency to have daddy issues and age regress a lot.

But most of all you men LOVE TIGHT PUSSIES.

Seriously if any group of people were to be called pedophiles its squarely on heterosexual men more than anyone else.
Anonymous No.17919627 >>17919630
>>17919604
>often
Greeks had a word for homosexuals. "Those that defiles themselves and others" was its translation. For all this talk of gay historical fanfiction I've never seen this brought up in reference to pederastic relationships. In actuality the criticism most levied at pederasts was their fondness for "collecting" intelligent gregarious athletic young men to party with them 24/7
Anonymous No.17919629
Oh and then theres the stuff of teen and child beauty pageants, and movies like Cuties was it? Oh and what about that 11 year old actress from Never Ending Story that gor marriage proposals

Actually that goes back to biblical times where girls were given in marriage before they were even in the 2 digits.

Good fucking lord why are heterosexual men such pedophiles by nature!
Anonymous No.17919630 >>17919640
>>17919627
>athletic young men
So not children nor child looking?
Anonymous No.17919640
>>17919630
The ideal was a post pubescent boy on the verge of becoming a man in order to be better trained. There were cases where they went as young as 7 in the martial cultures like the spartans where you were in military training most of your life if you wanted to become a citizen.
Anonymous No.17919674 >>17919679 >>17919982
>>17919562
what’s wrong with being attracted to feet? what if the feet are cute?
Anonymous No.17919679
>>17919674
I hate you and I hope you die
Anonymous No.17919680 >>17919982 >>17920070
>>17919562
But the Greeks liked boy feet.
Anonymous No.17919690 >>17920522
>>17919625
Uh oh melty
Anonymous No.17919719 >>17919794 >>17919801
>>17919562
>most of the greek city states used “boy-lover” as a perjorative against their rival
Source: 300 directed by Zack Snyder.

Attraction to boys in ancient Greece was viewed as a totally normal component of male sexuality (which it is), and before Christian influence, this normal sexual desire was openly expressed. It was not viewed as perverse, it was normalized. Men who were not attracted to boys were more often viewed as odd. A man being exclusively attracted to women to the exclusion of boys was mentioned as a point of contention in many sources. Historical sources, alongside other forms of evidence lead us to the conclusion that pederasty was prominent or present in the majority of Greek cities. Among the most documented Greek cities (Athens, Sparta, Thebes, etc.) we find an institutionalized form of pederasty where men were paired with boys in a sexual/pedagogical relationship, and we have no reason to believe that the surviving sources are not representative of wider Greek society. Pederastic myths are mentioned in the oldest surviving poetry (Homer, Hesiod), and Greek mythology abounds with love affairs between men and boys. Many of the most famous Greeks, such as Alexander and Socrates, were lovers of boys. The condemnations of pederasty come from a minority of idiosyncratic philosophers, and are often taken out of context, and weren't indicative of broader societal consensus. Illiterate chuds also often make the mistake of conflating condemnation of other sexual improprieties (in connection with boys) with condemnation of pederasty in general in Greek texts; for example, Against Timarchus is often mistakenly used as evidence that pederasty was frowned upon in Athens, when the text is actually supportive of widespread, socially permitted pederasty.
Anonymous No.17919794
>>17919719
How often do we have to teach you this lesson old man?
Anonymous No.17919801
>>17919719
>duh, before jebus, duh, gays, duh
dumbest most obviously political historical take from gays. Christianity increased tolerance towards gays because it put their punishment in God's hands
Anonymous No.17919818
>>17919575
>>17919576
He will lose his virginity to tranny.
Anonymous No.17919853 >>17919977
>>17919557 (OP)
Homosexual marriage was not legal ever during the entire history of Rome. I have a feeling that a myth of Romans and Greeks being super accepting of gays is something liberals are pushing to make it seem that current society's opposition to homosexuality is historically abnormal and thus irrational.
Anonymous No.17919863 >>17919875
>>17919557 (OP)
time to get back in the closet you faggots
obergefell about to be revoked
>top kek
Anonymous No.17919875 >>17919891
>>17919863
It won't chud, Drumpft would not go that far
Anonymous No.17919891
>>17919875
got damn you faggots really are retarded
its thomas clarence & the supremes not TRUMP
Anonymous No.17919977 >>17923208
>>17919853
Just a myth the Jews have been pushing for thousands of years
Anonymous No.17919982 >>17920059 >>17920070 >>17920091 >>17920913 >>17926369
>>17919562
>>17919674
>>17919680
The Greek writer Philostratus composed a whole letter about boy feet lmao

>To a Boy: Your condition is rather delicate, and it’s because, I am sure, your sandal pinches; new leather, you know, is quite likely to cut into flesh that is tender. That is why Asclepius readily heals wounds received in war and hunting and all such accidents, but neglects these others because of the voluntariness of the action—as due to indiscretion rather than to a god’s capricious malevolence. Why then don’t you walk barefoot? What grudge have you against the earth? Slippers and sandals and top-boots and shoes are for the wearing of invalids or the aged. Philoctetes, at any rate, is pictured in such protective garb—because he was lame and ill. But the philosopher from Sinope and the Theban Crates and Ajax and Achilles are pictured as wearing no shoes, and Jason as wearing but one. For the story goes that, when Jason was crossing the Anaurus River, one boot was caught by the mud and held fast under the stream, and so he had one bare foot—not that he deliberately chose to have, but that chance taught him what was best; and he went his way the victim of a salutary robbery. Let nothing come between the earth and your bare foot. Fear not, the dust will welcome your tread as it would welcome grass, and we shall all kiss your footprints. Ο perfect lines of feet most dearly loved! Ο flowers new and strange! Ο plants sprung from earth! Ο kiss left lying on the ground!
Philostratus, Letter 18
Anonymous No.17920059 >>17920068
>>17919982
disgusting
total
footfag
death
Anonymous No.17920068 >>17920074
>>17920059
If you are offended by the sacred human form this way, you really are defective
Anonymous No.17920070 >>17920073
>>17919680
>>17919982
this actually proves my point about it being a fetish
Anonymous No.17920073 >>17920076
>>17920070
He also wrote one for women
>To a Woman: Do not ever wear shoes, or conceal your ankles with false and deceptive skins, whose beauty, which consists in their dye, is illusory. For if you wear white, you obscure the whiteness of your feet (since like in the midst of like does not show); and if you wear the colour of larkspur, you offend the eye by the darkness of the shade; and if crimson, you cause fright, as if blood were flowing somewhere in the shoe. I wish that all the rest of you were visible; and you would actually possess far more power, exposing your whole body to the spectators’ eager pursuit. Well, be a bit economical of other features, if you will, and do not begrudge them protection or such coverings as are indispensable; but leave your feet at least bare like your neck, your cheeks, your locks, like your nose and eyes. To be sure, wherever nature has erred, the damage requires clever treatment, in order that art may conceal the defect; but where beauty suffices for its own display, remedial measures are superfluous. Be self-reliant and trust to your feet! These even fire will spare, these even the sea; and if you wish to cross a river, the river will stay its course, and if you wish to scale crags, you will seem to yourself to be treading on meadows. Thus Thetis was called “silver-footed” by the poet who had exact knowledge of all of beauty’s highest forms; thus Aphroditê too, as she rises from the sea, is depicted by the painters; thus too the daughters of Leucippus. Keep your feet in readiness for those who fain would kiss them; and wear no bonds, even of gold.
Philostratus, Letter 36
Anonymous No.17920074 >>17920084
>>17920068
when people describe flowers and trees as beautiful it is because of their petals not because of their roots
having sexual attraction not nonsexual body parts is the very definition of a fetish
Anonymous No.17920076 >>17920090
>>17920073
Philostratus is clearly a footfag
can you link me his work I’m going to repost it somewhere to bully my friend
Anonymous No.17920084 >>17920107
>>17920074
Very odd mentality. I cannot understand it. Whenever I am attracted to or in love with someone, their whole being excites me. Hands, neck, knees, feet, thighs, etc. There's something totally coarse and pornbrained about having no aesthetic or erotic appreciation for "non-sexual" body parts. You can tell because when you read pre-modern literature, praise of features like hands and feet are abundant. Now they are utterly absent.
Anonymous No.17920090
>>17920076
Ach, I can't remember. Just Google Philostratus Letters
Anonymous No.17920091 >>17920094
>>17919982
>In Epode 11, Horace complains to his friend Pettius that he no longer enjoys writing verses as he is mad with love for a boy named Lyciscus.
Why are poets like this?
Anonymous No.17920094
>>17920091
I fell in love recently and it spurred me to write poetry but it wasn't very good.
Anonymous No.17920095
Yeah, it wasn't a gay utopia. In homosexual relationships, the younger man was expected to be beardless, and once he matured, the relationship would end.
Anonymous No.17920104 >>17920212 >>17920774
>>17919557 (OP)
In the broad strokes you're kind of correct but not totally. Greek pederasty was between a man and a 'youth' which meant any male from the age of sexual development up to being an adult ready to marry a woman. In practice this could mean anywhere between the ages of 13 to mid 20s. So in Plato's Symposium, for example, the speakers debate whether Patroclus or Achilles was the 'lover' in the relationship or the 'beloved'. But of course both were fighting in the Trojan war so they were physically men, at least 16. Part of this idea that there needed to be a dominant partner was that all love was seen as unequal. A man was in charge of his wife, and so was also in charge of a relationship with another male. Normally, whoever was younger was the 'beloved', i.e. the object of affection.

It didn't necessarily mean unconsentual rape, although it could certainly mean that by today's standards. In the Patroclus and Achilles example, they are in a mutual relationship and love each other, it's just that one is the leader of the relationship, in Plato's dialogue it's decided that Patroclus is the leader since he's the elder.

In short, the ancient Greek view of homosexual love crossed our current boundaries of pedophilic rape and consentual gay relationships. The Greeks didn't have our current dividing line about that.

But as you've noticed, there were Greeks who were totally against it. The usual arguments were that it was unnatural since it didn't lead to child-bearing and animals didn't normally do it, and that if it was non-consentual it was an act of violence and coercion. Some modern "trad" fools like to claim that rape used to be acceptable but that's simply not true, rape was seen as a violent crime because it violated a man's property: either his wife or children.
Anonymous No.17920107 >>17920420
>>17920084
100% agreed. When you love someone and you love every aspect of them, you're not thinking "Oh I want to be jacked off by her knees", you're just appreciating the beauty of the whole. Love isn't just sexual attraction.
Anonymous No.17920202
>>17919557 (OP)
As per usual, the "elites" were the most notorious and whoring out your son was the best way to secure favor in the upper ranks of politics and the military. Sleeping your way to the top is nothing new.

The strangest bit with the Greeks is how actively they also avoided straight sex. It's almost never even mentioned aside from the act of breeding. They weren't "pan" or "bi" or "fluid" they were GAY HOMOS that wanted ONLY boi pussy, even when there were plenty of hot chicks around.
Anonymous No.17920207 >>17920215
>>17919557 (OP)
acceptance of homosexuality has been the most accurate indicator of societal collapse in centuries
Anonymous No.17920212
>>17920104
gays are completely ignorant about greek culture
Anonymous No.17920215 >>17920230 >>17920530
>>17920207
Lol no. Open homosexuality was present in Greece since at least the Archaic era. Once the city state started to decline and degenerate into mob rule, it started to become taboo
Anonymous No.17920230 >>17920236
>>17920215
oh look its the historical revisionists again
Anonymous No.17920236
>>17920230
Ya saying the same shit that literally everyone has been saying for 2,000 years = revisionism
Anonymous No.17920245 >>17920248
>"From your earliest childhood you have been brought up as I have; you have been taught to venerate Greece, of which we are the heirs. In our schools and in our museums, Greek works occupy the places of honor; we are asked to acknowledge them for what they are: human miracles of harmony, of equilibrium, of wisdom, and of serenity; they are held up to us as examples. Furthermore, we are taught that the work of art is never an accidental phenomenon, and that we must seek its explanation, its motivation in the people themselves, and in the artist who produces it—the artist who merely gives form to the harmony which he initially realized within himself."

>"We all know that. Go on."

>"We also know that it was not only in the plastic arts that Greece excelled, and that this same perfection, this felicity, this aptitude for harmony is also to be found in all the other manifestations of its life. A Sophocles, a Pindar, an Aristophanes, a Socrates, a Miltiades, a Themistocles, or a Plato is no less admirable a representation of Greece than a Lysippus or a Phidias. That equilibrium which we admire in each artist, in each work, belongs to Greece in its entirety—a beautiful plant without blemish; the full development of no one branch has harmed the development of any other."
Anonymous No.17920248 >>17920504
>>17920245
>"All this has been granted long ago, and has nothing to do with..."

>"What! Do you refuse to understand that there exists a direct relation between the flower and the plant which bears it, between the essential quality of its sap and its behavior and its economy? Are you trying to convince me that this people, capable of offering the world such mirrors of wisdom, of graceful power and of happiness, did not know how to conduct its own affairs—did not know first of all how to apply this happy wisdom, this harmony to its very life and the ordering of its morals! Yet as soon as Greek morals are mentioned, they are deplored, and since they cannot be ignored, they are turned from in horror; we do not understand, or we pretend not to understand; we refuse to admit that they form an integral part of the whole, that they are indispensable to the functioning of the social organism, and that without them the fine flower we admire would be quite different, or would not be at all."

Our response, /his/ bros..?
Anonymous No.17920420
>>17920107
To be fair, literature is 99% slop nowadays and poetry is completely dead. You won't find deep passages describing the beauty of the main character's love interest, but endless pages describing the food, clothing or the current scenary as if someone was describing a movie.
Anonymous No.17920482
>>17919562
>you wouldn’t murder someone for being attracted to feet (though you should)
Dude one of my best buds online is one I would never. Yeah I think its weird but whatever
Anonymous No.17920494 >>17920522
>>17919625
See, you were the child a homosexual rape. This is how homosexuals breed. A pedophile rapes a male child and that male child becomes a homosexual of two camps, a) the beta bitch that accepts his defeat and wants to be raped again by big strong smelly hairy men and b) those that want revenge and rape more children or want to dominate other men to get back at the rapist and prove their strength.
Anonymous No.17920504
>>17920248
the effeminate response to someone being better than you is to seethe and mald, the roman response is to conqver them as you would pounce and wrangle a wild stallion to the ground to serve as your steed
Anonymous No.17920522
>>17919690
I love melts, they are delicious sammies
>>17920494
You are certified batshit insane
Anonymous No.17920526 >>17920532
>>17919562
>tfw you will never see politicians insult other countries by implying they are all footfags
Anonymous No.17920530
>>17920215
That guy wrote the same comment on another gay related thread. He thinks he has a winning gem in that one sentence.
Anonymous No.17920532
>>17920526
It’s a compliment
Anonymous No.17920774 >>17921455 >>17921567
>>17920104
>which meant any male from the age of sexual development up to being an adult ready to marry a woman. In practice this could mean anywhere between the ages of 13 to mid 20s
No it didn't, this is faggot historical revisionism. The beginning ages at which a boy was considered an appropriate object of sexual lust was pre or peri-pubescent (~12) and the sexual component usually ended before they attained legal adulthood at ~18. Where institutionalized pederasty existed, it accompanied a delayed age of marriage for men, with unmarried men taking on a boy as a lover.

In the modern day, most 16 year olds have finished puberty, but this is a historical anomaly due to the lowering age of puberty. Aristotle gives the age of 14 as the beginning of puberty in boys, so it is highly unlikely that a 16 year old would have attained complete sexual maturity.

When Greeks portray Achilles and Patroclus as lovers, they presuppose that one partner was a boy, and the other an adult. From Plato's Symposium we find the argument:
>Very different was the reward of the true love of Achilles towards his lover Patroclus-his lover and not his love (the notion that Patroclus was the beloved one is a foolish error into which Aeschylus has fallen, for Achilles was surely the fairer of the two, fairer also than all the other heroes; and, as Homer informs us, he was still beardless, and younger far).

The idea that Greek pederasty was based on "power dynamics", with such relationships being acceptable due to their resemblance to relationships between men and women is feminist revisionism. Greek pederasty was based on male attraction to boys. Adult men were not viewed as a valid object of sexual attraction, not because they were equal in power, but because men do not find other men attractive, apart from a small minority of perverse homosexuals.

Your assertion regarding rape is also more feminist revisionism.
Anonymous No.17920842 >>17920844 >>17920851
Take nothing this OP says seriously, he regularly gets BTFO'd on this exact topic. Normally I would drag him into a 300 post long cope session and a few temper tantrums but he appears to have used a lot more LLM generation this time around and I do not feel like arguing with his curated ChudGPT instance.

If he starts babbling about anything related to neuroscience or Rind, know that the error of his beliefs has been unequivocally demonstrated to him and that he is incapable of accepting this. Feel free to mock and patronize him, he is quite a girly faggot and will get real mad when you do so. I either except to ignore this post or respond to it several times pretending that there is some consensus which supports him here. If you do try and have a discussion with him, I caution you against it, his beliefs match in their epistemology a black Israelite in terms of unwillingness to engage with evidence that runs counter.
Anonymous No.17920844
>>17920842
>I either except to ignore this post or respond to it several times pretending that there is some consensus which supports him here.

I either expect him*
Anonymous No.17920851
>>17920842
This didn't happen, you have been demonstrably blown the fuck out in various other threads and anyone is free to read the archives and see that this is the case.
Anonymous No.17920860 >>17920863 >>17920865 >>17920888
>>17919557 (OP)
I don't give a shit about the Greeks but for the Romans pederasty was frowned upon as a foreign import while nobody really cared if you fucked a slave or a foreigner in the ass since non-citizens don't count as people. In fact there's even cases of Roman soldiers being put to death for homosexuality within the Roman Army yet the Romans looked the other way when their soldiers forced themselves on foreign boys.
Anonymous No.17920863
>>17920860
It was technically legal, doesnt mean people tolerated or let alone accepted it.
Anonymous No.17920865 >>17920869
>>17920860
Yeah, I really don't understand where the, "Romans were super tolerant of gays," thing came from. Like, they may not have had as much of an issue with it as later Christian societies, but it's not as though they were out there celebrating it and allowing gays to marry. I mean, hell, practically any time a historian wants to slander an emperor they don't like, they basically write, "he was a big gay degenerate," which should tell you homosexuality was not seen as a positive.
Anonymous No.17920869 >>17920918
>>17920865
it’s a mixture of polemics against the pagans by christian converts and the usual greek bullying of just calling romans gay barbarians for not being greek enough
Anonymous No.17920888 >>17920901 >>17920942 >>17920948
>>17920860
Pederasty only became controversial in Rome towards the Roman Empire, when Rome had been flooded with browns from the Near East. During the Roman Republic, when Rome was more White, there was much more acceptance of pederasty. Laws such as the Lex Scantia were ambiguous and poorly documented; it isn't certain whether they only applied to rape, or all sexual relations involving freeborn boys. These laws were also rarely enforced. Historical sources and archaeological finds show us that pederasty was still commonplace, in spite of changing attitudes and laws. Hadrian's love affair with Antinious is a major example of a pederastic relationship which was viewed positively, with Antinious being deified and worshiped.

Pederasty becomes increasingly viewed with contempt as time progresses and Rome degenerates, both racially and spiritually, concluding in it being totally outlawed by the Christian emperors. Justinian infamously blamed an outbreak of bubonic plague on pederasts, and used laws against pederasty to persecute his political rivals. Even during this period of time, when Christianity was the state religion of Rome, and the Christian emperors had outlawed pederasty, there was still public disapproval of citizens being punished for having sexual relations with boys.

So it is only after the racial and cultural denigration of Rome, that pederasty comes to be viewed with controversy, and only after the adoption of Jewish religious laws, that pederasty is outlawed. Pederasty is, and always has been, a form of love which is endogenous to the Aryan man.
Anonymous No.17920891
>>17919557 (OP)
Well it was homosexual pederasty.
So both would be right.
>>17919565
First time I hippolytes I couldn't stop laughing at the idea of Aphrodite seething because Hippolytus is a stone cold huntcel who likes Artemis more than her.
Anonymous No.17920901 >>17920942
>>17920888
pederasty was literally euphemistically called the "Greek Custom" by the Romans. There weren't laws passed against it until later in Rome's history as you mention precisely because it wasn't present in Rome until Rome came into closer contact with the Hellenistic East during the 2nd Century BC.
>Hadrian
funny you should mention him, he was frequently criticized by Romans for being too Greek and un-Roman. As for Antinous, he was deified and worshipped because he supposedly saved Hadrian from drowning in the Nile, not just because he was the Emperor's lover. Even then though worship of antinous was mostly concentrated, but not exclusively so, in the Greek East.
Anonymous No.17920913 >>17920943
>>17919982
poets were the webcomic artists of their day.
Anonymous No.17920918
>>17920869
>it’s a mixture of polemics against the pagans by christian converts and the usual greek bullying of just calling romans gay barbarians for not being greek enough
this+ modern fags trying to attach their perversions to civilization and make them acceptable. They do the same with their gay animals arguments.
Anonymous No.17920942 >>17920945
>>17920888
>>17920901
Lex Scantinia
>*blocks your path*
Anonymous No.17920943
>>17920913
Don't tell him that lol. It's hilarious when he uses them as evidence.
Anonymous No.17920945 >>17920947
>>17920942
did you read my post? I said Rome didn't have laws against Pederasty (the Lex Scantia may have been from as early as the third century BC but it isn't mentioned by name until the 1st century BC) until late in the Republic because the practice simply was not present in Roman society before the Romans came into closer contact with the Hellenistic East
Anonymous No.17920947
>>17920945
Oh yeah, you see to be reasonable my bad, I assumed you were the OP.
Anonymous No.17920948 >>17920954
>>17920888
>Pederasty only became controversial in Rome towards the Roman Empire, when Rome had been flooded with browns from the Near East.

what the fuck are you on about
Anonymous No.17920954 >>17920962 >>17920997
>>17920948
>Italian genetic history was profoundly shaped by Romans. While the Iron Age was comparable to contemporary European regions, the gene pool of Central Italy underwent significant influence from Near Eastern ancestry during the Imperial age. To explain this shift, it has been proposed that during this period people from Eastern Mediterranean regions of the Empire migrated towards its political center. In this study, by analyzing a new individual (1.25x) and published Republican samples, we propose a novel perspective for the presence of Near Eastern ancestry in the Imperial gene pool. In our scenario, the spread of this genetic ancestry took place during the late Republican period, predating the onset of the Empire by ∼200 years. The diffusion of this ancestry may have occurred due to early East-to-West movements, since Eastern Mediterranean regions were already under Roman political influence during the Republic, or even as a result of migration from Southern Italy where Greeks and Phoenicians settled.
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2024.10.07.617003v1

This racial replacement coincides with changing Roman attitudes towards pederasty, which are more in line with what you find amongst browns (i.e. Jews).
Anonymous No.17920962
>>17920954
pedospammer is also the phenotard lmao
Anonymous No.17920997 >>17921003 >>17921031
>>17920954
>Guy does research on the genetic ancestry of an ancient peoples proposing a new idea to the scientific community for further research
>Probably one of the culminating achievements of his life to have been published with a new idea in a field that is stiflingly difficult to research

All that just for probably the LCD of humanity to use your research for an auxiliary point of race during an internet argument about child rape. The grief you would cause this man, should he be made aware of your existence, is incalculable. I hereby forbid you from ever using any prestigious source to argue your points ever again, especially if they are so tangentially related. These scientific achievements are too valuable to be besmirched by wretches such as yourself.
Anonymous No.17921003
>>17920997
Don't worry, I am almost positive an LLM gave him that source. You think this retard reads anything other than newgon and boylovewiki?
Anonymous No.17921031 >>17921039
>>17920997
>tangentially related
This is the primary reason for why pederasty became unfavourable in Rome. The racial replacement of Rome had a significant impact on Roman culture and sense of morality, which almost certainly included Roman attitudes towards pederasty, as attitudes towards pederasty underwent a significant shift concomitant with this racial replacement, coming to be more in line with typical brown attitudes towards the matter. This racial replacement is also the explanation for the adoption of Eastern mystery cults, such as Christianity. This racial replacement is also attested to in the historical record.

After the collapse of the Roman empire, Italy became more European once again, due to migrations into Italy from the rest of Europe, which coincides with the efflorescence of pederasty we see during the Renaissance. The more brown areas of Italy (e.g. Sicily) were more suppressive of pederasty than Whiter areas of Italy, such as Florence.

The Whiter a nation is, the more prominent the love of boys is — this is a defining trait of the Aryan man. The ancient Proto-Indo-Europeans themselves likely practiced a form of pederasty, judging by the striking similarities between their culture, and other pederastic cultures, and the presence of pederasty in an array of Indo-European cultures (Celtic, Roman, Greek, Persian).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/*K%C3%B3ryos
Anonymous No.17921039 >>17921042
>>17921031
You have to stop using AI to write your posts anon, it's very obvious.
Anonymous No.17921042 >>17921052
>>17921039
>durr em dash means AI
Anonymous No.17921052 >>17921060
>>17921042
It shows clear signs of AI authorship besides the EM dash, which is not at all suspicious but is far more convincingly human when typed out like "--" as opposed to "—". Listen man I get it, you were made a fool of and you feel mentally incapable of actually arguing, so you turn to AI to give you a little leg up and own those evil straight men preventing you from raping children. Your retardation is much more entertaining when it's YOUR retardation however, keep it real, even if you are a repulsive and retarded pedophile.
Anonymous No.17921058
The gay pedo and the coping Greek nationalist are arguing again.
Anonymous No.17921060
>>17921052
I have my Right Alt mapped as my compose key.
Anonymous No.17921455 >>17921457 >>17921624
>>17920774
(1/2)

>The beginning ages at which a boy was considered an appropriate object of sexual lust was pre or peri-pubescent (~12)
And I said it started about 13, we're saying essentially the same thing. I also explicitly said Greek pederasty included pedophilic rape, it's just that it also included mutual relationships with young men. The Greeks put both in the same category, it's nasty but it's how they saw it.

>usually ended before they attained legal adulthood at ~18.
We know young men could also be the 'boy' in the relationship so I disagree that this was a limit. See Plato's Charmides 154-155 where Charmides is described as a young man with impressive stature and is the object of male affection, and Plato's Laws 836c which says that both men and boys could be the objects of male intercourse.

>it is highly unlikely that a 16 year old would have attained complete sexual maturity.
Puberty certainly occurs earlier now on average, but where do you get the specific data about 16 years from? And in one tradition, Achilles was 15 when the Greek expedition first assembled, so he'd be 24-25 during the events of the Iliad in that version (Apollodorus, The Library epitome iii 16) although that's not necessarily what Plato thought.

>they presuppose that one partner was a boy, and the other an adult.
But your quote doesn't prove that Achilles was a "peripubescent" boy, just that he was a youth without a beard. And as I said he'd need to be a fighting-aged man to be the greatest Greek warrior.
Anonymous No.17921457
>>17921455
(2/2)

>"power dynamics"... is feminist revisionism. Greek pederasty was based on male attraction to boys.
Those aren't mutually exclusive, and obviously there was a power dynamic because one member of the relationship was the man who was 'in charge' and had power in the relationship. Nothing feminist about it, just describing what our ancient sources say. Critics of the practice said the youth or man played the role of a woman, so it was absolutely seen in a similar way:

Dionysus of Halicarnassus, Roman Antiquities 7.2.4
>Aristodemus, the son of Aristocrates, a man of no obscure birth, who was called by the citizens "Effeminate" — a nickname which in time came to be better known than his own name — either because when a boy he was effeminate and allowed himself to be treated as a woman...

Plato, Laws 836c
>If we were to follow in nature's steps and enact that law which held good before the days of Laius, declaring that it is right to refrain from indulging in the same kind of intercourse with men and boys as with women

Demosthenes, Letters 4.11
>He is an enemy to his own parents but a friend to Pausanias the whoremonger, and though he swaggers like a man he allows himself to be used like a woman.

Plutarch, Moralia 751d-e
>But to consort with males - whether without consent, in which case it involves violence and brigandage; or if with consent, there is still weakness and effeminacy on the part of those who, contrary to nature, allow themselves in Plato's words "to be covered and mounted like cattle" [Phaedrus 250e]

>Your assertion regarding rape is also more feminist revisionism.
Haha, what? Feminists HATE that ancient view of rape because it makes the crime against the patriarch instead of against the woman or offspring who are seen as the patriarch's property.
Anonymous No.17921464 >>17921600 >>17921806
Why do we have so many Greek homosexuality experts on this board to the point where they are arguing with each other using extensive primary source citations
Anonymous No.17921567 >>17921597
>>17920774
>Adult men were not viewed as a valid object of sexual attraction
>but because men do not find other men attractive, apart from a small minority of perverse homosexuals.
Why do you men hate yourselves so much to say youre an invalid category of attraction? The last thing I would expect is a gay guy is to be called perverse for liking another grown man.

Wow.
Anonymous No.17921597
>>17921567
>Why do you men hate yourselves so much to say youre an invalid category of attraction?
This lol. Misandry is too deeply embedded
Anonymous No.17921600
>>17921464
everyone on 4chan is gay
Anonymous No.17921624 >>17921628 >>17921629 >>17921792
>>17921455
>we're saying essentially the same thing
You claimed that Greek pederasty involved boys beyond the age of sexual development, which is not true. It was not atypical for these relationships to begin before puberty. Plutarch in his Life of Lycurgus states that 12 was the age around which boys were considered viable for pederastic relationships in Sparta. Strato in his poetry mentions twelve as a viable age of sexual lust (and seventeen as an invalid age):
>I delight in the prime of a boy of twelve, but one of thirteen is much more desirable. He who is fourteen is a still sweeter flower of the Loves, and one who is just beginning his fifteenth year is yet more delightful. The sixteenth year is that of the gods, and as for the seventeenth it is not for me, but for Zeus, to seek it. But if one has a desire for those still older, he no longer plays, but now seeks “And answering him back.”

The average 12 year old boy in ancient Greece was pre-pubescent. Pederastic scenes in Greek artwork oftentimes depicts boys who are decidedly pre-pubescent. Ganymede in the OP image appears to be a child. Typically, boys at the beginning of adolescence were favoured, and most pederastic relationships were between men and adolescent boys, but it was not atypical for pre-pubescent boys to be involved in these relationships, or to be viewed as objects of sexual lust.

>I also explicitly said Greek pederasty included pedophilic rape, it's just that it also included mutual relationships with young men
Sexual relations with pre-pubescent boys are not synonymous with rape; the majority of sexual relations between men and pre-pubescent boys in the modern day are volitional.

>Plato's Charmides 154-155
Charmides would have been around 17 in this dialogue, which would have meant he would be towards the end of the age range that was considered attractive by men, so this example is not contrary to my point.
Anonymous No.17921628
>>17921624
Don't the stoics talk about beloveds being in their late 20s sometimes? What about Agathon and Pausanias?
Anonymous No.17921629 >>17921632 >>17921676
>>17921624
>Plato's Laws 836c
I don't speak Greek, and different translations on the passage from Plato's Laws are ambiguous, so I'm not sure whether he is referring to laws prohibiting sexual intercourse with men and boys, between men and boys, or just between males in general. Either way, I'm not denying that homosexual relations between two adult men didn't exist in ancient Greece, just that this was not the typical expression of homosexuality in Greece.

>but where do you get the specific data about 16 years from
Aristotle implies 14 as the expected age of the onset of puberty in Politics 1336b. Puberty takes roughly 5 years for boys to complete, so if they were hitting puberty at ~14, they would likely not be finished with puberty until ~19. This pattern of pubertal development is consistent with medical records from 50+ years ago. Children reach puberty at an unprecedentedly low age in the modern day, and the age is continuing to decrease. Most boys in Western populations have actually completed puberty by age 15 nowadays, which gives a distorted view of how sexually developed boys in the past would have been.

>Achilles
A Greek man would be unlikely to be beardless beyond his teenage years, so it is implied that Phaedrus believes Achilles to be a teenager. Also, pederastic relationships were often expected to continue, absent a sexual aspect, into adulthood, so it would not be out of the ordinary for them to be described as "lovers", without actually having an active sexual relationship with one another.
Anonymous No.17921632
>>17921629
>Nothing feminist about it, just describing what our ancient sources say
The claim that homosexuality in Greece was based on a "power dynamic" is incorrect, it was above all, based on male attraction to boys, as evidenced by their expressed appreciation for boyish beauty. Whether or not the power dynamic was actually present is not relevant to my point. If Greek homosexuality was based on nothing but a power dynamic, they might as well have fucked small animals, since this dynamic would be present there as well. The claim that Greek homosexuality was based on a power dynamic is often promulgated by adult-attracted sodomites who want to pretend that the noble tradition of pederasty in ancient Greece was the predecessor of their sodomitical, anti-social, sado-masochistic "relationships" based on exploitation.

Also, the idealized pederastic relationship between a citizen and a freeborn boy in Athens did not involve penetration, and the boy was not expected to take on the role of a woman, to protect his dignity.
Anonymous No.17921676
>>17921629
>which gives a distorted view of how sexually developed boys in the past would have been.
Yeah everytime someone says boy I think an 8 year old boy. But they use it to refer to young men who already have developed physically.
Anonymous No.17921792 >>17921914
>>17921624
>Sexual relations with pre-pubescent boys are not synonymous with rape; the majority of sexual relations between men and pre-pubescent boys in the modern day are volitional.
Oh, so you're just a pedophile. I'm going to stop engaging with you because you clearly have a sick agenda and you're not actually interested in ancient Greek sources outside of that.
Anonymous No.17921806
>>17921464
Gays don't actually use sources or understand what they're reading. The main guy pushing this shit here is an unapologetic pedophile
Anonymous No.17921914 >>17922418 >>17922446
>>17921792
>y-you're a pedophile
>y-you have a sick agenda!
This cope is pathetic. You were called out on promoting faggot revisionism, and now you don't want to defend your original claims. I accept your concession.

Homosexual relationships in ancient Greece rarely involved two fully sexually mature males, and it was far more common for men to have sexual relations with pre-pubescent boys. Homosexual relations in Greece involving 17+ males as the eromenos were the exception, Greek pederasty involved children and adolescent boys, and the sexual aspect of these relationships almost always ended as the boy reached maturity. To refer to them as young men is dishonest. This is all consistent with other cultures where pederasty is practiced.

And yes, most sexual relationships between men and pre-pubescent boys in the modern day are consensual. Adult-child sex is not synonymous with rape, and the Greeks did not have a rape culture. Sorry if that upsets your feminist sensibilities.
Anonymous No.17922418 >>17922931
>>17921914
You've had it proven to you in like 20 other threads that sex with children is rape, in fact it makes you so mad when that is pointed out that you go and sulk for a week each time. I hope you realize you will never get the discussions you want because of your dishonesty and stupidity.
Anonymous No.17922428 >>17922435
>>17919562
Seeing a non retarded post as the first reply to an OP gives me smile and optimism for 4chan like nothing else.
Anonymous No.17922435
>>17922428
except he says a bunch of untrue shit that has no basis in primary sources
Anonymous No.17922436
Anyone responding to this thread should be made aware that the OP is an open and unapologetic pedophile who has been routinely and easily BTFO in every other thread he has made. He is the only person on this board who makes posts about pederasty and is a jobless NEET that lives with his parents, having a discussion with his is unviable and he is incapable of accepting his degeneracy.
Anonymous No.17922446
>>17921914
Just crawl back into whatever hole you came out of you disgusting faggot, literally no one wants you here.
Anonymous No.17922474 >>17922478 >>17922481 >>17922780
>pedo pedo pedo! screams the heterosexual male who creams himself over teenage and pre-pubescent girls but is so ashamed of it he needs to target everyone's favorite scapegoat!
The real pedos are the ones that like the gender that is basically a grown child - the hairless, youthful, child sounding cute women or girls but whatever.
Anonymous No.17922477
>>17919557 (OP)
It was actually against the law and made you a second class citizen.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNAT4ybsz_E&t=1s
Anonymous No.17922478 >>17923022
>>17922474
What an insane cope
Anonymous No.17922481 >>17923022
>>17922474
Ginsburg's force ghost is channeling dworkin for this post man
Anonymous No.17922780 >>17923022
>>17922474
So pedophiles are rhetorically identical to militant lesbians?
Anonymous No.17922927 >>17922944
>>17919557 (OP)
>But when looking at the sources
Leather Apron and Metatron videos on GoyTube aren't sources, anon. Read actual scholars of the topic like James Davidson and KJ Dover. It was not only relatively common (certainly moreso, percentage wise, than today) but most documented examples are of consensual relationships between adult males of equal value instead of pederastic infatuations or exploitation of slaves and prostitutes.
Anonymous No.17922931 >>17923426
>>17922418
>You've had it proven to you in like 20 other threads that sex with children is rape
Imagine being this delusional.
Anonymous No.17922944 >>17922955
>>17922927
>most documented examples are of consensual relationships between adult males of equal value
Source?
Anonymous No.17922955 >>17922974
>>17922944
The Greeks and Greek Love by James Davidson
Blackwell Companion to Greek and Roman Sexualities edited by Thomas K. Hubbard
Greek Homosexuality by Dover, K.J.
Goddesses, Whores, Wives and Slaves and Spartan Women by Sarah Pomeroy
Women in Ancient Greece by Sue Blundell
A History of Women in the West, Volume I: From Ancient Goddesses to Christian Saints edited by Pauline Schmitt Pantel
Defining prostitution in Athenian legal rhetorics by Maria Nowak
The Age of Love: Gender and Erotic Reciprocity in Archaic Greece by Sandra Boehringer and Stefano Caciagli
The Spartans by Andrew Bayliss
Nuptial Eros: The Visual Discourse of Marriage in Classical Athens by Robert F. Sutton Jr.
Anonymous No.17922974 >>17923437
>>17922955
>The Greeks and Greek Love by James Davidson
I think I'll take based Edmund Marlowe's word on this book and read his website instead.
Anonymous No.17923022 >>17923418
>>17922478
>>17922481
>>17922780
The heterosexual male recoils when he is found out.
Anonymous No.17923188 >>17923208
>>17919557 (OP)
It was just young boys being sexually abused by older richer men. The fact that modern day academia glorifies it is actually insane just pedo apologists, they all need to be hanged. Socrates talked about this and was against it, its why he was so hated by the elites.
Anonymous No.17923208 >>17923326 >>17923430 >>17923454 >>17923824
Wow, I guess the Greeks being pedophiles was just a myth that people have mistakenly believed for thousands of years >>17919977, and we now know better because one academic released a shitty propaganda book misrepresenting sources to promote an agenda.

In chapter 3, he sets out to mislead the reader into believing there is some sort of consensus in Athens that under-18s are off-limits sexually, akin to the modern day.

He claims that laws prohibited men from entering the gymnasium when under-18s were present, even though these laws prohibit men from entering the palaestra when paides (boys between 7 and 14) were present, not under-18s. He claims the "effective age of consent" was 18, because there was a law that stated that if the guardian of a boy prostituted the boy, the boy would not be considered responsible, but the guardian and the man who solicited the boy (again, this law is in reference to paides, not under-18s).

None of these laws provide evidence that paides or under-18s were considered sexually off-limits, and it actually provides evidence that it was widely expected for men to be sexually attracted to immature boys. It was considered a given that men were attracted to paides.

Then he just lies about sexual imagery, claiming that most of it depicts men over 18 without evidence, and speciously tries to claim that there were actually laws expressly outlawing sexual relations with under-18s, because men were forced to be chaste in relationships with boys who were "akairos"/"before the right time" (which he mistranslates as minor in an attempt to relate it to the mischaracterization of Athenian social attitudes he gave prior).

More faggot propaganda to whitewash pedophilia from the historical record, and pretend historical homosexuality was akin to modern day homosexuality.

>>17923188
>It was just young boys being sexually abused by older richer men
*according to feminists
Anonymous No.17923326 >>17923437 >>17923824 >>17923942
>>17923208
More deboonking of this same chapter by the scholar Thomas Hubbard in a book review, which is the primary basis for Davidson's claim that sexual relations between men and boys <18 were prohibited in Greece.
Anonymous No.17923418 >>17923573
>>17923022
It's getting about time for a night of the long knives situation if you keep getting uppity like this little faggot.
Anonymous No.17923426
>>17922931
more cope
Anonymous No.17923430 >>17923655
>>17923208
It was according to everyone that the practice was sexual abuse in cases where sexual contact occurred, even Greeks and Romans viewed it as such, they just didn't care and raped as many little boys as they wanted if they were sufficiently inclined to such depravity. You want to rape little boys and the fact that you have such a complex about it being called that makes your desires even more pathetic. Hang yourself faggot.
Anonymous No.17923437 >>17923655
>>17923326
>>17922974
If you only ever cite pedophile apologia no one is going to take you seriously.
Anonymous No.17923450
>>17919576
>prayers to greek gods often come with a price
Yeah and that price is burning a steak and some wine in a firepit
Anonymous No.17923454
>>17923208
That infographic is like one of your chief pieces of evidence that this was a widely accepted historical truth and it's just a bunch of random historical figures making off hand mentions to the practice or vaguely relating an understanding of Greek homosexuality. If our understanding of Greek sexuality was partially based off of over simplification and myth, as it is, would that image not lend credence to the idea that they weren't all child rapists?
Anonymous No.17923489 >>17923655
>>17919557 (OP)
You have to realize that none of the excuses the ancients gave were in good faith and all just various ways of trying to find a semantic loophole to say "I'm not gay". Basically it goes like this: More or less every culture that has ever existed has viewed Homosexuality as disgusting at best and deserving of death at best. But something that is also pretty much universally true about cultures is that men at a certain level of the social hierarchy/level of wealth are not subject to the law in the way the hoi polloi are. And like all groups of humans, statistically some of them will be gay. And these rich men, gay or straight, be they Athenian statesmen, Japanese Daimyo, or Victorian Gentleman, know that they can use their position to coerce an underage person of their preferred gender into sex. The straight ones don't have to worry much, they just tell the teenage maid she's fired and out on the streets if she refuses to fuck them and that's that. The gay ones had to put in a little more work of course. Since being gay wasn't really accepted you had to at least create a bullshit excuse about "mentorship" or "wakashudo" or some other excuse for why you were keeping a little boy in your bedroom. But they were just that, excuses. It was that a rich guy wanted to fuck a person and that person couldn't say no. All the philosophical babble was just a way for society to try and pretend these people weren't flagrantly breaking the law and no one was stopping them.
Anonymous No.17923573 >>17923617
>>17923418
You sound like you belong to /x/
Would you mind adding something better to this discussion or will you respond with more buzzwords and being a trashy human being all around?
Anonymous No.17923617 >>17924143
>>17923573
The child rapist calls me a trashy human being, hilarious. A good chunk of your entire existence is predicated upon ignoring the explicit harm you cause to some of the only truly innocent beings on this cursed planet. No threat or slur is too low for you, you deserve every last ppm of smoke that you get and I sincerely hope that shit goes down the drain as soon as humanly possible so it can be open season on your bitch ass. In the interim I will bully you on the internet like the fucking traitor you are.
Anonymous No.17923655 >>17923674 >>17923697 >>17923704
>>17923430
>It was according to everyone that the practice was sexual abuse in cases where sexual contact occurred, even Greeks and Romans viewed it as such
This claim is contradicted by historical evidence.

>they just didn't care and raped as many little boys as they wanted
But the post you're responding to mentions laws from Athens which were concerned with protecting boys from sexual abuse. This is just more feminist revisionism.

>>17923437
What's wrong with Hubbard's critique of chapter 3 of Davidson's book? Nice feminist language, by the way.

>>17923489
>men at a certain level of the social hierarchy/level of wealth are not subject to the law in the way the hoi polloi are
But pederasty was common to all social classes in ancient Greece. You are making the mistake of assuming that because most surviving sources come from the upper classes, that only the upper classes partook in the practice, but this is wrong.

>It was that a rich guy wanted to fuck a person and that person couldn't say no
But freeborn boys in Greece were allowed to deny sexual advances from men and were protected by the law from rape.
Anonymous No.17923674 >>17923678
>>17923655
>But pederasty was common to all social classes in ancient Greece. You are making the mistake of assuming that because most surviving sources come from the upper classes, that only the upper classes partook in the practice, but this is wrong.
Every example we have is of pederasty in the Greco-Roman tradition is of a man taking advantage of a boy of a lower social class. You forget that there weren't just divides between two classes like today, but a whole web of them up to and including actual slavery for a man to take advantage of an imbalance.

>But freeborn boys in Greece were allowed to deny sexual advances from men and were protected by the law from rape.
And we are specifically talking about how "the law" only exists when it is enforced, and in certain dynamics it was not enforced. Sure any freeborn is "allowed" to deny the advances of a gross old man, but when that man is an Ephor who your dad also works for suddenly you don't have any choice at all. Hence why the old writers had to hem and haw about it so much, it was an obvious violation of what was the law "on paper" but they also lived in a time and place where even more than today the power dynamics between different classes of people were rigid and allowed for no one too get "uppity" at those above them.
Anonymous No.17923678
>>17923674
>Every example we have is of pederasty in the Greco-Roman tradition is of a man taking advantage of a boy of a lower social class
Source?

>Sure any freeborn is "allowed" to deny the advances of a gross old man, but when that man is an Ephor who your dad also works for suddenly you don't have any choice at all
Do you have a source of such a situation occurring?
Anonymous No.17923697 >>17923718
>>17923655
Yes Athens did institute laws outlawing the practice, just like Sparta. Generally these were positive changes for each city state and occurred in sequence with societal reimagining of things like rights for the citizenry or in the case of Sparta a more accurate reflection of their warrior culture. Again when boys were inducted into sexual relationships with older men they were being raped because of their poor or non-existent social standing. This is always the case, both by modern standards and their own.
Anonymous No.17923704 >>17923718
>>17923655
Feminists don't own the word apologia you retard, I repeat any source that views pederasty or the practice of it as unproblematized in Greek culture falls short of the historical benchmark for unbiased. Also wasn't TKH the guy who sperg'd out about paraphilias in response the Dover book? Yeah right to the trash bin with that closet faggot.
Anonymous No.17923718 >>17923731 >>17923733
>>17923697
>Yes Athens did institute laws outlawing the practice, just like Sparta
Source?

>Again when boys were inducted into sexual relationships with older men they were being raped because of their poor or non-existent social standing
But there were laws preventing them from being raped.

>>17923704
>Feminists don't own the word apologia
The word is almost exclusively used by feminists and bugmen, like you.

>I repeat any source that views pederasty or the practice of it as unproblematized in Greek culture falls short of the historical benchmark for unbiased
"having an unbiased approach to a historical topic means you are biased"
Anonymous No.17923728
>>17919557 (OP)
>Wouldn't it be more accurate to say that pederastry was a topic with mixed reception in ancient Greece and Rome
It was more akin to what was going on in the boy scouts 50ish years ago.
Anonymous No.17923731 >>17923735
>>17923718
>The word is almost exclusively used by feminists and bugmen, like you.

A predatory faggot calling me a bug man? Interesting.

>"having an unbiased approach to a historical topic means you are biased"

It was problematic to Greeks, it is problematic to us. Viewing it in any other way makes you biased because it is objectively problematic to rape little boys.
Anonymous No.17923732 >>17923735
>>17919557 (OP)
>>17919562
Anonymous No.17923733 >>17923735
>>17923718
>But there were laws preventing them from being raped.

Which outlawed sexual contact between men and boys; i.e your interpretation of pederasty
Anonymous No.17923735 >>17923736 >>17923742 >>17923776
>>17923731
>resorting to low quality trolling

>>17923732
All of these quotes apart from the Plato one are taken out of context.

>>17923733
>Which outlawed sexual contact between men and boys
No there weren't.
Anonymous No.17923736
>>17923735
>denial of reality
Anonymous No.17923742 >>17923745
>>17923735
Rape and sexual contact between men and boys are the same thing anon, even to the Greeks.
Anonymous No.17923745 >>17923755 >>17923760
>>17923742
>Rape and sexual contact between men and boys are the same thing anon
No they aren't, the majority of man/boy sexual relationships are consensual.

>even to the Greeks
No it wasn't, the historical record clearly refutes this notion.
Anonymous No.17923755 >>17923756
>>17923745
>No it wasn't, the historical record clearly refutes this notion.

For most of Greek history it was not, there were brief periods where it was and the change in laws reflect that, these reimagining of laws surrounding the bodily autonomy of young boys generally pairs with the ascendancy of states. Aeschines' case shows this, Xenephon's discussion on the practice in Spartan society shows this, it was viewed as shameful and wrong to do this to a little boy or for the little boy to want it in any way. The rest of the time they were raping little boys, whether the little boys said they "wanted" it or not matters little, because in any case it was still rape.
Anonymous No.17923756 >>17923761
>>17923755
>For most of Greek history it was not
Do you have a source for this claim? All you are doing is posting your own, worthless, opinion. You aren't bringing up any sources.
Anonymous No.17923760
>>17923745
Greek civilization always existed on a scale, on one end they were hedonistic and degenerate warlords doing whatever they wanted, on the other they had grand ideas about civilization and nifty ideas like popular sovereignty.
Anonymous No.17923761 >>17923824
>>17923756
I have a feeling you did not read the post
Anonymous No.17923776 >>17923824
>>17923735
You are aware the just because both involved consent doesn't mean that what they do would be considered acceptable to outsiders, right?
I feel like there's a disconnect between what you and the anons you argue against are saying. Like they're saying it wasn't socially acceptable, and you're saying that it was consensual and wide-spread. But the two aren't mutually exclusive. They can both be true.
Like seriously the same thing happened in America with the boy scouts. Lots of molestations and straight up gay sex. If you asked the victims some would even say it was consensual. But not really socially acceptable.
Anonymous No.17923824 >>17923889 >>17923894 >>17923913
>>17923761
>I have a feeling you did not read the post
You're right, and I was vindicated by not doing so.

>aeschines
Doesn't mention anything which is suggestive that Athenians viewed sexual relations with boys as rape, was himself a boy-lover who had sexual relations with boys, dealt with already here >>17923208 >>17923326

>xenophon on sparta
Mentions nothing which supports your claim that the Greeks viewed sexual relations with boys as rape for most of their history; there is dispute about the meaning of the passage, but Xenophon is either saying that Lycurgus believes it is okay for boy-lovers to be in a relationship with a boy, so long as there is no sexual aspect, or that it is fine for boy-lovers to have a sexual relationship with a boy, so long as his attraction is not solely to the boy's body, but his soul. He then goes on to qualify:
>It does not, however, surprise me that certain people do not believe this: in most of the Greek cities the laws do not oppose men’s desire for boys. Thus the Laconian education system, as well as that of the other Greeks, has been explained. Which of them produces men who are more trustworthy and more modest and more self-controlled when it is necessary, anyone who is interested may judge for himself.

Pic rel. is Paul Cartledge's essay on the matter.

You aren't providing sources which support your stupid claims. The most you've engaged with these sources is through screencaps of them posted on this board, which you have misinterpreted. Just stop replying.

>>17923776
The historical record supports the notion that pederasty was an accepted, widespread practice throughout ancient Greek society. You are correct about the boy scouts thing, in fact, most relationships between men and boys in the modern day are consensual, despite being considered unacceptable.
Anonymous No.17923889 >>17923907
>>17923824
The Cartledge source is far too academic a source for you to transpose in this case, or any case relating to your pedophile advocacy. The practice was deeply problematic and had this reputation even within Greece, this is reflected by an honest historiographical assessment of changing attitudes we see in many crucial Greek authors such as the ones I have listed and others. If you are to meaningfully take into account Symposium than you must also acknowledge Laws, and if you are to point towards Athenian Archaic practices of it then you must also look at Aeschines who prosecuted a case against a man who prostituted himself as a boy. As to Cartledge's discussion he even says "The major obstacle ... is the state of the available evidence". Plato, Aristotle, Xenephon all paint conflicting pictures of a problematic practice which waned in its sexual character with increased civility as, Erich Bethe, one of Cartledge's sources puts it. This actually supports one of my prior claims but I have a feeling you rip these from pro-pedophile wikis and don't actually bother reading them.

All in all Cartledge's analysis here is not only wishy-washy but downright speculative and related solely to Sparta as he himself admits, this does not degrade his academic value but by no means is the text supportive of your sweeping claims about the entire Greek peninsula. Further it can never be supportive of your attempts to point to whatever the ancient practice may have been as a justification for your own perverse intention with children. No matter what the institution may have been if sex ever occurred it was fundamentally rape, not to suggest that it was always sexual though, as the Cartledge discussion does speak of the practice in more neutral terms and suggest it potentially had altogether different purposes than erogenous gratification.
Anonymous No.17923894 >>17923918
>>17923824
At the end of the day it is habit for you to produce evidence which you claim to be "proof" for your claims and in doing so betray that you have bothered to engage very little with the text at hand. You have done this with studies on adolescent brain development and you have just done it now with the Cartledge work and for that matter likely every long textual excerpt included in an image. Do you expect anyone to meaningfully engage with you if this level of dishonesty is your baseline, you will continue to be bullied and shamed for your genuinely repulsive character if nothing else.
Anonymous No.17923907 >>17923927
>>17923889
>The practice was deeply problematic and had this reputation even within Greece
It was widely accepted, practiced, and considered positive in most cases. The fact that there were discussions surrounding the context in which it was acceptable does not mean it was problematic. This is like claiming that prohibitions regarding prostitution, marriage, incest, prostitution, adultery, age of consent, etc. are all proof that heterosexuality is problematic.

>Laws
Where Plato rants about his personal opinion on an ideal society, which he admits is contrary to public opinion. He wants to outlaw homosexuality... because it's a legal, widespread practice. Plato's Laws, and his other writings which mention pederasty are actually evidence of widespread pederasty, not widespread condemnation of the practice.

>Aeschines who prosecuted a case against a man who prostituted himself as a boy
Which has nothing to do with criminalizing pederasty for reasons already explained.

> "The major obstacle ... is the state of the available evidence"
And he concludes that sexual relations between men and boys were most likely present in Sparta from the available evidence.

>but by no means is the text supportive of your sweeping claims about the entire Greek peninsula
I didn't present it as evidence in favour of that claim, moron. I presented it specifically in relation to Spartan pederasty.

>if sex ever occurred it was fundamentally rape
Cool opinion, but it's wrong, and you've been proven wrong re. this plenty of times on this board already, which people are free to read the archives to see.

>it is habit for you to produce evidence which you claim to be "proof" for your claims and in doing so betray that you have bothered to engage very little with the text at hand
Nice description of yourself.

>you have just done it now with the Cartledge
You are hallucinating arguments which I haven't even presented, and then refuting them. Congratulations.
Anonymous No.17923913 >>17923918 >>17923924
>>17923824
If there was a law prohibiting the rape of freeborn boys it does imply that sex with them was viewed as such. In almost no other context can a pederastic relationship assume to have existed, it was acknowledged that when these relationships became sexual they are degraded in their character and subjected the passive partner to shame. Aeschines shows the case of a "consenting" eromenos and how he was stripped of his civil rights for this offense, calling him a "boy-lover" as an ad-hoc defense is meaningless because the assumption would be that he would have to rape a boy in order to do so, according to your definition of pederasty, and as you stated there were laws against raping a boy. If the act was consensual the passive partner would be stripped of their rights in adult hood (roughly in line with LACs video lol -- almost like it's actually a good source), and if it was non-consensual there were laws against it. Did it still happen, likely, same as it goes today. Rich and powerful people with no moral fiber will have sex with just about whatever they want and get off scot-free but this shows the problematic nature of the practice within Greek society.
Anonymous No.17923918 >>17923924
>>17923894
At the end of the day you're just ass-blasted that pedophiles exist, have existed historically, and that sex between adults and children/adolescents occurred historically (and is not harmful btw), and are unwilling to accept any facts on the matter that contradict your religiously motivated anti-sexual preconceptions on the matter.

Your continual seethe fills me with joy. Same goes for any of the other chuds that post here. Keep crying for me.

>>17923913
>If there was a law prohibiting the rape of freeborn boys it does imply that sex with them was viewed as such
Source: I just made it up.

>In almost no other context can a pederastic relationship assume to have existed
Source: My opinion.

>it was acknowledged that when these relationships became sexual they are degraded in their character
...according to a minority of commentators.

>subjected the passive partner to shame
When it involved penetration.

>for this offense
The offence of prostitution, not homosexuality. You haven't read Against Timarchus btw, otherwise you wouldn't be making these retarded arguments.
Anonymous No.17923924 >>17923934 >>17923942
>>17923913
>>17923918
>calling him a "boy-lover" as an ad-hoc defense is meaningless
Meanwhile Aeschines himself:
>And just here I understand he is going to carry the war into my territory, and ask me if I am not ashamed on my own part, after having made a nuisance of myself in the gymnasia and having been many times a lover, now to be bringing the practice into reproach and danger. And finally—so I am told—in an attempt to raise a laugh and start silly talk among you, he says he is going to exhibit all the erotic poems I have ever addressed to one person or another, and he promises to call witnesses to certain quarrels and pommellings in which I have been involved in consequence of this habit.

>Now as for me, I neither find fault with love that is honorable, nor do I say that those who surpass in beauty are prostitutes. I do not deny that I myself have been a lover and am a lover to this day, nor do I deny that the jealousies and quarrels that commonly arise from the practice have happened in my case. As to the poems which they say I have composed, some I acknowledge, but as to others I deny that they are of the character that these people will impute to them, for they will tamper with them.

>the assumption would be that he would have to rape a boy in order to do so, according to your definition of pederasty, and as you stated there were laws against raping a boy.
You have a delusional set of presuppositions which impede any possibility of honest discussion (or understanding on your behalf).

>If the act was consensual the passive partner would be stripped of their rights in adult hood
You made this up.
Anonymous No.17923927 >>17923942
>>17923907
>The fact that there were discussions surrounding the context in which it was acceptable does not mean it was problematic.

That's literally what it means, that means the practice was problematic. Heterosexuality was never viewed in this light, homosexuality and pederasty were.

>Which has nothing to do with criminalizing pederasty for reasons already explained.

It has everything to do with exactly that

But sorta coming around here as you seem to be ignoring my point, is the best you have really "no, u" and referencing other threads which are in part the reason why you have started to receive such a hostile reception in this thread? If so I accept your concession I guess, it's astonishing that you continue to do this though, making yourself look like a complete idiot over and over again.
Anonymous No.17923931 >>17923938
You guys are all such fucking retards. Because the pedo apologist uses Greek pederasty as justification, you guys yourselves start distorting history to try and "own" him. Fucking retarded.
Anonymous No.17923934 >>17923942
>>17923924
>At the end of the day you're just ass-blasted that pedophiles exist

No one is, your existence is a humiliation ritual you inflict upon yourself because of the rape you experienced as a child. Everything you have said has been demonstrably proven false in regards to CSA and your continued insistence that this is not the case only makes it more embarassing.

>...according to a minority of commentators.

Very important commentators that are considered hallmarks by nearly every textual source of repute you have bothered to offer

>You made this up.

That's literally what happened to Timarchus

The rest of your cope sesh I'll leave as a testament to your willful ignorance I guess, also the Aeschines excerpt never mentions sex, strange, it is almost like that is my point.
Anonymous No.17923938 >>17923944 >>17923958
>>17923931
Until the mods range ban Israel we will have to deal with him unfortunately. If you let these people take root they cannot help themselves from trading and trying to exploit minors, it is best to bully them consistently.
Anonymous No.17923942 >>17924005
>>17923924
Thomas Hubbard has more to say about Aeschines' citation of Solon's laws here >>17923326

>>17923927
Having a discussion about whether or not it's okay to have sex with your own mother, for a woman to be a prostitute, to force yourself on a woman, is indicative that heterosexuality is viewed as "problematic"? Nice cope.

>It has everything to do with exactly that
No it doesn't.

>>17923934
>That's literally what happened to Timarchus
No it isn't, I suggest you actually go read the text you're trying to argue about.
Anonymous No.17923944 >>17924005
>>17923938
Yes but I am saying that in response YOU shouldn't try to whitewash the Greeks.
Anonymous No.17923958 >>17924005 >>17924017
>>17923938
>i-im actually bullying him, guys! im not being humiliated for being a historically illiterate retard... i-i swear!
Anonymous No.17924005 >>17924028 >>17924028
>>17923942
>Having a discussion about whether or not it's okay to have sex with your own mother, for a woman to be a prostitute, to force yourself on a woman, is indicative that heterosexuality is viewed as "problematic"?

Except that pederastic sexual relationships are explicitly what's problematized in these philosophical discussions, having sex with one's one mother and the other cases are entirely different from heterosexuality.

>No it isn't

He was stripped of his civic rights (disenfranchisement)

>>17923944
I said the practice was problematized and not well understood, I have repeatedly stated that they likely still did horrendous things but it wasn't given carte blanche when it came to literary or legal discussions.

>>17923958
Your seething anger does make the labor of preventing you from turning this board into a CSAM mill significantly more worth it.
Anonymous No.17924017 >>17924023
>>17923958
Why do you continue to embarrass yourself like this Jino, or is it John?
Anonymous No.17924023
>>17924017
It's funny because he accuses other people of being SAARs, the levels of self hatred on display in this strange species is unfathomable to normal people.
Anonymous No.17924028 >>17924051 >>17924094
>>17924005
>are explicitly what's problematized in these philosophical discussions
Plato also problematizes all forms of non-reproductive sex and advocates for banning it. Guess heterosexuality was problematized in ancient Greece now.

>He was stripped of his civic rights
Not because he was the passive partner in a homosexual relationship, as you claimed.

>>17924005
>Your seething anger does make the labor of preventing you from turning this board into a CSAM mill significantly more worth it.
You're basically pic rel. tier delusional at this point. Take your meds.
Anonymous No.17924051 >>17924073
>>17924028
>Not because he was the passive partner in a homosexual relationship, as you claimed.

That's exactly why, Aeschines brought no evidence that he exchanged money to the case, prostitution is used euphemistically.

>Plato also problematizes all forms of non-reproductive sex and advocates for banning it. Guess heterosexuality was problematized in ancient Greece now.

More than just Plato problematized the practice of sexual relations with little boys, and all forms of heterosexual sex are usually procreative, they didn't really have abortifacients in antiquity. Either way all these are separate institutions from heterosexual sex, which was distinctly unproblematized, while pederastic relationships with any sexual character were explicitly what is discussed and problematized.
Anonymous No.17924073 >>17924104
>>17924051
>prostitution is used euphemistically
Source: I hallucinated it.

>and all forms of heterosexual sex are usually procreative
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coitus_interruptus

>they didn't really have abortifacients in antiquity
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortifacient#History
Anonymous No.17924094 >>17924099 >>17924193
>>17924028
>NOOO ELITE JEWS DON'T RAPE KIDS YOU'RE DELUSIONAL
>JEFFREY EPSTEIN IS HECKIN' INNOCENT YOU ANTISEMITE
yes, he's a fat fuck who sounds retarded and got memed by #pizzagate, but he's not actually wrong, lol, that's the thing

this has been going on for centuries too
Anonymous No.17924099 >>17924107 >>17924123
>>17924094
>JEFFREY EPSTEIN IS HECKIN' INNOCENT YOU ANTISEMITE
He is though.
Anonymous No.17924104 >>17924152
>>17924073
He sure talks a lot about the defilement of sex with boys for it to be a hallucination, but I think I have sufficiently proven my point for like the ten millionth time.

In summation, Greek pederasty is a poorly understood practice that was regarded as problematic in its own time. No matter what it may have been it will never be a justification for your own desires towards children.
Anonymous No.17924107 >>17924153
>>17924099
Thank you for finally admitting that you are a Jew.
Anonymous No.17924123
>>17924099
>And then one day, for no reason at all, people voted Hitler into power.
Anonymous No.17924143 >>17925630
>>17923617
You're getting quite worked up like a woman here. Maybe the schizos can help you get in touch with your inner divine feminine and you'll relax.

Now, do you think you are able to add something better to the discussion or will you continue on an hyper emotional tirade with insults and ad hominems against the topic at hand?

I expect better quality content from people who like history and humanities. Otherwise I would just go to /pol/ and get my fix of batshit takes from the schizos.
Anonymous No.17924152 >>17925567
>>17924104
>He sure talks a lot about the defilement of sex with boys for it to be a hallucination
Yeah, you didn't comprehend the text. Reading primary sources isn't for you, you should stick to reading regurgitated materials for the masses.

In summation, Greek pederasty, like other Greek social practices, is unfortunately not as well documented as we wish, but most scholars agree on the basis of surviving evidence that it was a widespread, normalized practice which played an important role in many Greek cities, being an institutionalized practice in many. Furthermore, it was considered normative for Greek men to feel attraction towards boys, in sharp contrast to modern Western views of such attractions as pathological.

Two highly regarded books on the subject written by scholars are Greek Homosexuality by Kenneth Dover (described on Wikipedia):
>The conclusions drawn are that the Greeks regarded homosexuality in general to be natural, normal, and salutary, and their actual practices were circumscribed by cultural norms. In the case of the ancient Greeks – specifically the Athenians – the book claims that the sexual roles of the lovers were sharply polarized.

And Pederasty and Pedagogy in Archaic Greece by William Armstrong Percy.

For a sourcebook (although not exhaustive) about Greek/Roman homosexuality, acquire Homosexuality in Greece and Rome: A Sourcebook of Basic Documents, edited by Thomas K. Hubbard.

The fact that pederasty was not only practiced, but regarded positively among a race of people as noble as the Hellenes, offers compelling counterevidence to the modern Western notions that sexual relations between men are corruptive, traumatic, and aversive. For an introductory article on the topic of pederasty, read Pederasty: An Integration of Empirical, Historical, Sociological, Cross-Cultural, Cross-Species, and Evolutionary Evidence and Perspectives By Bruce Rind, published in Censoring Sex Research edited by Thomas K. Hubbard.
Anonymous No.17924153
>>17924107
https://www.compactmag.com/article/the-idiocy-of-the-epstein-mythology/
Anonymous No.17924193 >>17924520 >>17925605
>>17924094
Why are they bringing up a sex trafficking network that is likely composed of more than 90% little GIRLS? Make a thread about heterosexual male pedo. The evidencial material would be endless.

It was normal to marry 8-12 year old girls, you know?
Anonymous No.17924520 >>17925567
>>17924193
>Don't you want to fuck children?
What does this have to do with history or humanities
Anonymous No.17925567 >>17925628
>>17924520
Literally nothing, a single retarded fail son is currently spamming this board every few weeks trying to convince (?) people raping children is actually ok or based or something. Until they decide to moderate these boards and range ban israel/india we will have to deal with low quality posts by retards such as seen here>>17924152
Anonymous No.17925605
>>17924193
It was sorta normal to do this, though most waited for consummation until the girl was of age and that usually happened sometime between 15-17, this was prior to estrogenic medicine being in the water supply and given out like candy to teenagers in the form of birth control, which explains the later age. Either way just because it was normal does not mean it is normal to marry a 9 year old.
Anonymous No.17925628
>>17925567
>low quality posts which i am incapable of refuting
Anonymous No.17925630
>>17924143
You want to rape children, regardless of what you think that is fundamentally what you want. It does not matter where you go, no one of any substance will ever find you tolerable and this is likely something you experience every day which is why you are so mopey about people being mean to you.
Anonymous No.17926109
>>17919625
Yes, little girls are hot. So what?
Anonymous No.17926227
>>17919565
Aphrodite is one of the major gods.
Anonymous No.17926284
If it was socially acceptable, you are telling me ton of men wouldn't be buying cheap slaveboys and fucking them?
Anonymous No.17926369
>>17919982
it's actually real... man I can't believe all the retards on here idolize the gayreeks so much