Thread 17932030

It’s a hard choice to choose between Christianity and Islam. Islam is attractive because of its pure monotheism. You pray to God alone. No saints, no Jesus, no angels, just God. It is orderly and structured. You know exactly how to pray, exactly how to make dua, exactly how to make dhikr, and these are all powerful spiritual tools to keep your heart in alignment with God’s path. The religion is immune to changes, unlike even the Catholic and Orthodox churches which are in many ways unrecognizable from the first generations of Christians. But the Quran forces you to believe in ahistorical events and that is where the hidden problems start to be revealed. It is even argued that the Quran affirms the Bible, thus refuting itself. But the Bible also forces you to believe in ahistorical events and a logically impossible trinity. Christianity also lacks the things needed for a religion to remain unchanged and strong in the face of adversity.

moslems worship Muhammad and Aisha, not God.

>>17932037
That's like saying Christians worship Peter and Paul, not God.

Islam is polytheist, because they don't understand how three persons can be one God. In Islam, God is impossible to know, and so everyone has their own unique gods that they worship, to the point of taqiyya devolving into animalistic survival of the fittest. That's why they are so violent and believe in censorship and manipulation. When they say they honor Jesus, they are talking about the Jesus that was not crucified, who is called Jesus Barabbas.

>>17932030 (OP)
islam is nice because it comes with its own debunk built right in

muhammad (police be upon him) said if he was a false prophet then he would die by his aorta being severed
his death is marked by him being poisoned after he was fed by a woman whose family he slaughtered and he cried out that he felt his aorta was being severed

>>17932052
Peter, Paul & Mary

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ld6fAO4idaI

>>17932052
Christians dont have an extensive library of fanfiction about Peter they center their entire lives and faith around.
Most of what moslems practice isnt even from the Quran but hadith. For example prayers: the Quran doesnt specify how to do it because it doesnt matter, but moslems insist they have to do it five times a day, clean themselves beforehand, face the cube, on a carpet, prostrating themselves or its "wrong" and Christians need to be killed for praying with folded hands or algo. Its a perfect example for how performative moslems are: everybody has to see they pray correctly, everybody has to know they fast, everybody has to see they follow taharah as if God doesnt know their true intentions.
I can get respect Quranists but mainstream "muslims" are just idolaters and God abandoned them a long time ago.

>>17932066
>because they don't understand how three persons can be one God. In Islam, God is impossible to know, and so everyone has their own unique gods that they worship, to the point of taqiyya devolving into animalistic survival of the fittest
That is basically the christian explanation of the trinity. “God is beyond logic so it doesn’t need to make sense”

> no saints

*confused Shia/Sufi noises*

>choice
Presumably you'd believe what you think is true, is true.
It's not like you *choose* if you think Muhammad is making stuff up, you kinda just think it's true or not.

>>17932075
Serves him right, he earned it

>>17932030 (OP)
>Bible also forces you to believe in trinity.
Where the fuck is trinity in the Bible?
It's CLEARLY a later theological development

>>17932084
Thats true and probably even more a Muhammadan stance than a Christian one. God makes those listen he wants to listen, and those mock he wants to mock. Some people can read the bible or the quran and feel nothing, others are suddenly caught by ecstatic joy and devote themselves to God. You cant choose a religion, God will either open your heart or keep it closed.
Thats why there cant be compulsion in religion, trying to force somebody to be faithful is forcing God to accept somebody he rejects.

>>17932030 (OP)
>logically impossible trinity
skill issue

>forces you to believe in ahistorical events and a logically impossible trinity
God does not conform to your reason, as if He was beneath you, and had to prove Himself to you, and could not exist beyond the bounds of your tiny creature brain. The real question is will you humbly submit to God's revelation and accept Him to be wiser than yourself? Your answer will be judged on the last day

>>17932082
which is true by the way. the creator of the universe doesn't need to make sense to humans.

>>17932030 (OP)
>It’s a hard choice
not it isn't
go fuck the goats achmed

>>17932431
Nice way of coping with believing in retarded shit that doesnt make any sense

Why not both? & The Book of Mormon is from Africa

>>17932501
Lots of seething that he is gonna burn

>>17932030 (OP)
You do not have the faintest idea of the full extent of your ignorance.

>>17932030 (OP)
BTW, the Qur'an's own author thought that God could have a divine son just fine, read 43:81, use of the conditional "in" indicates him having a son is a real possibility and not just an abstract thought exercise, and muslims have zero rebuttal to it, they just seethe and wish the Qur'an had been written differently (it could have because it's never been "preserved" anyway, the topic is a goldmine).

>>17932030 (OP)
>It’s a hard choice to choose between Christianity and Islam
Another proof of your deep ignorance is that neither the Bible not the Qur'an promotes belief in free human choice.

>>17932030 (OP)
>The religion is immune to changes
Islam has changed many times throughout history and thanks to the disagreements of their scholars (btw their modern scholars quietly sweep so many awful commands and halal practices under the rug). It's also unrecognizable from the earliest historical proto-islam which was a messianic noahide trinitarian movement (which is why the Qur'an has so many passages from jewish books and christian folklore). And there's the whole "abrogation" issue, in fact muslims are so stupid they believe artistic depictions were permitted in Solomon's time, but forbidden for us. I'm not joking when I claim it's the stupidest religion of all times.

>>17932030 (OP)
jew religion or jew religion hard choice. Are you a jew?

>>17932511
The trinity is like a 3 leaf clover and I don't care what John Pope asshole the 5th says.

>>17932623
>proto-islam which was a messianic noahide trinitarian movement
this might be the most retarded take i've read on /his/. What? Are all those verses in the Qur'an condemning trinity and divine sonship just "later additions"? What's your proof?

>they believe artistic depictions were permitted in Solomon's time, but forbidden for us
Most Christians literally believe sex slavery was allowed during Moses time but not allowed during the time of Jesus (despite Jesus never mentioning it at all)

>>17933555
Go back to your goats, Ahmat

>>17932030 (OP)
>[Islam] is orderly and structured.
That's a very flattering way to put it. I think the more insightful way to put this is that Islam is just dumbed down Judaism.
Once you inspect more profound aspects of theology, you'll see that Islam doesn't really go that deep - its strength is in looking cool in shallow waters. For example, the fact that bodies will be resurrected is a teaching that goes all the way back to Gen 1 where God created matter and saw that 'it is good'. Christ took material form and it was good also. Resurrection will happen materially because matter itself, from the first page of the Bible to its absolute climax on the Cross is trated as good. Islam doesn't have any of it. It just says the resurrection will happen materially and that God probably had some reason to make it so. That's it. Matter isn't even particularly well treated as a concept in Islam, it really just feels like someone liked the sound of bodily resurrection and slapped it on top of a belief system that has nothing to do with it. This applies to most concepts in Islam. They're not well structured. They're just dumbed down and shoved into the bunch.

>[Islam] is immune to changes
>Christianity also lacks the things needed for a religion to remain unchanged
Islam's rigidity isn't a spiritual strength, it's a psycholgical comforter. Religion is a community that lives the truth, it's not a set of procedures that follow an unchanging technical method.
>Orthodox churches which are in many ways unrecognizable from the first generations of Christians
The Orthodox liturgy might be more pompous now (with golden chalices around) but the liturgy was performed during Second Temple period pretty much the same way it is now.
>Bible also forces you to believe in ahistorical events
They are symbolic. There is great work being done in modern people trying to recover the symbolic world-view.
>logically impossible trinity
God will necessarily be above logic.

>>17932603
Muslims understand that God is omnipotent so he could have a son if he wanted, he just doesn't.

>>17933555
>Are all those verses in the Qur'an condemning trinity and divine sonship just "later additions"?
They don't condemn the Trinity or divine sonship. You think they do because you have zero theological knowledge to properly interpret them. They condemn a heretical tritheistic movement that was prevalent in monasteries at the time in the region. Your religion is a pile of lies only sustained by the low iq and extreme ignorance of its adherents.

>>17932430
>it makes no sense so its true
this is essentially a coping atheist argument
if you essentially agree with the idea that the trinity is impossible and the Biblical events were false, then you are effectively negating faith and affirming a semblance of the Divine anyway purely to complete a belief system. That's just tradatheism.

If there is no way to truly believe that Jesus rose and the trinity is true, then there's no reason to believe they are correct. Most religions stake themselves on whether the practices work, Christianity stakes itself on whether its historical narrative took place and whether its doctrines are provably by reason as well as faith. It has to be logical, or its assertions to supremacy over the doctrines of other religions fall flat.

>>17933993
>The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary was only a messenger
>Do not say "Three!", desist for your own good, Allah is One God
>He is far above having a son
Explain how this can any way be interpeted as trinitarian

Islam claims the Qur’an is God’s perfect, final dictation, yet it contains obvious falsehoods - Christians worshiping Mary as part of the Trinity, Haman serving Pharaoh, Meccan crops of olives and wheat that could not exist - errors that shatter the premise of divine perfection. Even more troubling are the origins: Muhammad’s first encounters left him convulsing, terrified, and suicidal, convinced he was possessed by a spirit, until reassured by others it was an angel. These private, fearful experiences stand in stark contrast to Christ’s public ministry, where every word and deed was open, consistent, and confirmed by His resurrection.

Christianity initially spread through preaching and martyrdom, the Spirit moving hearts without armies or coercion, while Islam spread largely by conquest, its early caliphs extending the faith through the sword. The difference in fruits is equally clear: the Gospel produced a civilization that nurtured freedom of conscience, philosophy, and science, while Islam has often left societies bound to rigid legalism and intellectual stagnation. One faith begins in the open with peace, light, and love, the other in secrecy with fear, compulsion, and error - and that difference unmasks the source.

>>17932030 (OP)
Biblical Unitarianism solves these problems.

>>17935159
nobody likes unitarians

>>17932030 (OP)
>Islam is attractive because of its pure monotheism. You pray to God alone.
You pray to a fucking desert rock by rotating around it

>>17932066
>Islam is polytheist, because they don't understand how three persons can be one God
Christians also can't explain the trinity. Jesus doesn't even mention it
>book of john
Hellenic gospel to attract Greek pagans. pagans had triple gods, but it was connected with society: priests, warriors, ordinary people, like odin, thor, fryer.

Christianity seems to have taken this concept, but didn't explain how it was

btw there were also three-headed(triple) gods, like the Slavic triglav/trajan or the Vedic Krishna-Visvarupa-Trishars, as well as zakhhak, but they are actually bad guys. I am interested in mythology and this three-headedness is often connected with dark gods. lugh (similar to odin and apollo) was also depicted as three-headed

>>17934025
>The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary was only a messenger
Emphasis on "son of Mary" = emphasis on not confusing the human and divine natures like the monophysites did. The lakhmids were nestorian (who asserted a clear distinction between the two natures) and likely part of early proto-islam.
>Do not say "Three!"
It denounces belief in three distinct gods, which was a prevalent heresy at the time.
>He is far above having a son
Is a mistranslation, read how "an yakun" is used in the verse right next to it, so it can be translated as "glory to him that he has a son".

I'm sorry but your religion was made up by the Abbasids, which is why they told the Chinese a completely different story than the early arab conquerors did.

>>17932030 (OP)
...

>>17935588
Follow your leader

>>17935584
>>17934025
And I don't want to frighten you but there's actually more than one way to interpret most of these verses as trinitarian, depending on the theological and historical angle.

We have been through this before. Mo was based, so called "muslims" today are retarded and will burn.

>>17932075
>muhammad (police be upon him)
not wrong but go back to plebbit

>>17935584
All of these "interpretations" collapse if you look at the qur'an as a whole. God says "He does not beget", "It does not befit God that He takes a son"

Instead you take verses here and there, look at them through a trinitarian lens, and reinterpret on a whim (just like you do the Bible) when the Qur'an is very clear in its theology:

Say "He - Allah is One,
Allah the Eternal,
He does not beget, nor is he begotten,
There is none equal to Him."

And yet you say, God is three, God can die and beget a son(that is in some way also himself), and that Jesus sits equal to "the Father" (whoever that is)

>The Abbasids
This is ridiculous. We have fragmentsry mushafs from the time of the companions, complete mushafs roughly from the Umayyad period. Some hadith are determined to go back to certain companions through HCM. Even Shoemaker (who's a nutjob) claims Umayyad authorship

the choice is simple

vajrayanic pre-hispanic SEAmonkey neodayak paganism is the only true answer

>>17936221
borneans just copy westerners nowadays. they should just assimiliate to melayu islam

>>17936228
when I google borneans, first result is borean organutan kek

>>17932030 (OP)
Christianity is a comic book club for everybody's favorite superheroes. It's notba serious religion ever since whites coopted it.

>>17936242
>white coopted it!!
why are ethiopian orthos the same with all the saints then?

>>17936246
You did. There are gat white pastors right now in America, the EU, and UK.
>why are ethiopian orthos the same with all the saints then?
They have some weird beliefs overall but they're not defining marriage quite like Mormons and episcopal are.

>>17936233
the West cares more for animals than us, yet we look up to them as if they are gods. What the third world needs is a potent uniting force like Islam. splintered forms of paganism (liberalism with LARPs) are just distractions

>>17936259
>yet we look up to them as if they are gods
but sarr I thought I was the timmy and you were chad tech bilionare?

>>17936327
diaspora are the dregs of the ummah

>>17932030 (OP)
>>17932037
>>17932052
Yes, Moslems worship Muhammad more than Allah. Moslems have 2 gods, Allah and Muhammad, and Muhammad is above Allah. Moselms won't care if you insult Allah. They themselves talk about him without much respect. But try saying anything against Muhammad and millions of them will chimpout and burn every city down. Muhammad is even in their prayer that they scream 5 times per day. Moslems also defy Allah and practice idolatry by bowing to, kissing and worshiping lump of space rock, simply because Muhammad used to do it. To Moslems Muhammad is the real god that they show the utmost respect and reverence, while Allah is just some guy in space managing heaven and hell for them.

>>17936045
/his/ is a reddit colony anon

>>17932030 (OP)
>The religion is immune to changes
It's very much arguable whether the religion we have today is Muhammad's religion or something else that emerged in the centuries after his death during a long reification process. Unlike the Quran, no Hadith can be reliably traced back to Muhammad. We don't have a biography of Muhammad from the first century after his death either. The Quran, meanwhile, simply doesn't stand up on its own as a text - it talks to a contemporary audience in media res without feeling the need to explain its context to later readers - this is why you need the scaffolding of much later exegetical traditions to make any sense of it. Most of the Islamic legalism that you so admire for its certainty isn't even based on the one source we can reliably trace back to Muhammad (the Quran). So while the Islamic orthodoxy we have now is resistant to change, it's highly questionable whether this orthodoxy is pure and unchanged in the first place.

Documents like the Constitution of Medina arguably suggest that proto-Islam was a far more ecumenical faith with Muhammad occupying a more modest role than the exalted figure Muslims consider him to be now. The early use of the Shahada on coins, papyri, and inscriptions, for example, doesn't include Muhammad (using the simplified la ilaha illa llah instead). The Quran overwhelmingly addresses “Believers” (muʾminun) rather than “Muslims” (muslimun), preferring an ecumenical title to an exclusionary one. For many reasons, including these, one could argue Muhammad was a monotheistic preacher who believed there were multiple ways to salvation through Christian, Jewish and other monotheistic traditions. That would place him closer to Unitarian Universalism, for example, than orthodox Islam.

>>17932030 (OP)
Both are better than atheism and all the shit it enables like faggotry and troonism

>>17936653
Pisslam does exactly that.

>>17936187
>It does not befit God that He takes a son"
You're just quoting the exact same verse mistranslated differently.
>on a whim
All of this is based on a growing mountain of evidence (quranic and extra-quranic) that proto-islam had nothing to do with later islam, and was deeply connected with christianity and judaism.

More accurate translation:
>Say "He is Allah, one,
>Allah, the unifier
>He does not beget, nor is he begotten,
>And there is none equal to Him."
There are no less than three ways to make this surah perfectly compatible with trinitarianism.
Firstly, the surah can refer to the Holy Spirit. Samad does not mean "eternal" (made up translation), but in syriac it means unifier, which perfectly fits the role of the Spirit, just like not being begotten etc.
Secondly, it might simply be another refutation of John Philoponus' tritheistic metaphysics, according to which God begets other separate Gods.
Thirdly, yalid and walad might refer to physical procreation rather than eternal divine sonship.

>"the Father" (whoever that is)
Your Qur'an commands you to view God as a Father (2:200), did muslims make you forget?

>We have fragmentsry mushafs from the time of the companions
Fragmentary yes. And? I didn't claim they invented the Qur'an from scratch (no one claims that), I said they invented modern islam, the two are not the same thing at all. Even quranists have acknowledged that, and they're smarter than you even though they're also retarded. Now, explain why the Chinese were surprised when they heard the Abbasid envoys' new narrative.

There are tons of other arguments, don't think I have the time to compile all of them here. Islam will fade like darkness before dawn when researchers are done compiling everything.

Alma just leave this here.

>>17932554
>>17936256
>>17936837
Interesting.

Allah is one
Muhammad is a prophet

>>17932030 (OP)
You just have to judge on what people you like more, the books are a bunch of bullshit that no one follows.

>>17937875
and YWNBAW

>>17937956
I am white already

>>17936653
>buying into a whole elaborate prepackaged system of delusions because you can't think of any better way to oppose and legitimize opposition to the gays and the trannies

>>17937972
Ok

>>17932030 (OP)
Just become a Quranist, ez pz

>>17932030 (OP)
Hard to choose between being based or being redpilled. If you could only be either based, or redpilled, what would you be?

>>17935225
Why not?

>>17938644
They deny the Son being divine

>choose between semitic psyop #1 and semitic psyop #2

no fucking thanks lmao

In practice, Islam is Arabic ethnonarcissism. So it is an association with the subhuman.

Christianity is hard monotheism. The trinity was never taught by Jesus or the apostles.

>>17937882
One of them is inspired. The other is fanfiction.

>>17939460
We have hospitals and universities because of your "semitic psyop"