Thread 17950710

If I'm not mistaken, it depicts Syrian men bringing tribute in the form of vases, weapons, and animals, including horses and bears, to Egypt. However, upon closer inspection, these Syrians are depicted with fair skin and red and blond hair..
Who are they? It's not as if such characteristics were present in Syria at any point in history; quite the opposite, which makes me wonder about the identity of these merchants.

Any theories? I **personally** theorize that it could be the Mitanni, since the dates, although not perfectly aligned, don't present much discrepancy. The tomb was dated 1479-1400 BC, and the Mitanni Empire was founded in 1500 BC, perhaps older. It could also be the Hyksos, but who knows? What are your theories?

By the way, before some idiot bothers me, read this carefully;
****I DO NOT think Egypt or the Levantine areas were once blond and redheaded*****
To avoid any misunderstandings

>>17950710 (OP)
Light featured people existed and exist now throughout the middle east probably as a result of at least 3 things: 1. The migration of probably light skinned but dark haired people out of the Caucasus mountains into the rest of the middle east. 2. The invasion of the middle east by light skinned light haired indo-european people from the eurasian steppe. 3. The international slave trade resulting in rich people especially developing lighter hair and skin as a result of buying european slaves most famously in the case of the ottoman ruling dynasty

The amorites most likely had a disproportionately high amount of red haired, light skinned people implying significant mixing with steppe people. Esau's appearance was most likely meant to resemble a stereotypical amorite.

>>17950734
>The amorites most likely had a disproportionately high amount of red haired
Your attempt to appear intelligent was worthless. I'm sorry We have samples from the Bronze Age Levant, and there are literally two samples with light characteristics and low-quality SNPs, so reducing everything to "Asiatics" and some magical light features pop,
is not only simplistic, but relatively false. The Egyptians represented general characteristics of the people: Semites with dark features, Egyptians with dark features. Of course, the artistic style is taken into account, but there would be no reason for them to represent several people with such characteristics, There were the so-called "red Nubians," but if we look at the frescoes, the vast majority are represented in the traditional way. What I mean by this is that the fact that such characteristics existed in these places is not enough to explain these people, since the Egyptians represented the general characteristics of the people.
And your argument, ironically, postulates that Asians had such characteristics, and as we know genetically, it is false and ridiculous.
>>17950710 (OP)
are described as inhabitants of Syria, not Semitic Syrians. could be anyone

>>17950734
>amorites most likely had a disproportionately high amount of red haired
This was not their stereotypical characteristic, and this image is not represented by a conflict or poetic or religious sense, but represents it in the context of tribute.

>>17950744
>>17950734
NO people in these areas had light features we wuzn

>>17950710 (OP)
in the same tomb TT10 there are other people with such features

I see that many people here are unfamiliar with Egyptian history... the Syrians were called "Retjenu," but the problem with that is that it was a general term that could be used for various peoples, including the Hyksos, as the OP mentioned.
In fact, Retjenu is referenced as a geographic area, not a specific people, so basing their identity on that is quite amateurish. The OP's photo is in the Tomb of Rekhmire and is described as
"chiefs of Retjenu," and the reason the term Retjenu is so useless is that Thutmose II literally mentions it;
>I came to let you tread on those of Asia, to smite the Asians' heads in Retjenu.
again, an umbrella term for any Asian, not just Syrian

in short, they can be, literally, any inhabitant of Egyptian "Asia"

>>17950744
>>17950748
I didn't say anything about asians retard and yes amorites are historically associated with light skin and hair compared to other middle eastern people

>>17950710 (OP)
Those aren't even the whitest looking peoples in the tomb either.

>>17950792
You just lost, sorry

>>17950789
The only impartial and neutral post here. Thank you.
The rest of you should read more.

>>17950792
>>17950794
these people are described as Retjenu, and may is a generic term for any Asian inhabitant, and Syrian is emphasized

>>17950710 (OP)
"Syria" was broadly "Indo-European" until the Arabs invaded, same with the Turks in Anatolia. Both of them were part of the Silk Roads, Greece and Rome, along with being part of the Persian Empire and other Anatolian rulership.

Even today, they're in a weird spot culturally b/c so many events of the Bible take place in "Syria", but they're formally "Muslim" on the outside.

The Assad family has been walking this tight rope for quite some time, with varying degrees of success.

Interestingly, a Syrian argued that he was "White" b/c of the folks of the Bible were "White" and the events of the Bible take place in Syria. Therefore, he too, was "White", and it worked.

Even the Roman Empire was going Syrian by the time of Elagabalus and had already had a rocky relationship with the Cybele Cult. Even Caesar was seduced by the Syrian King, and that nice Jewish boy named "Jesus" would become a castrated, Attic/Galli Priest of Galilee and his best buddy, Paul, would have his revelation on the road to Demascus, as well. Hell, even ol' Steve Jobs was sneaky Syrian.

You can still find blue-eyed, light featured Christian Syrians to this day, but most have left to get away from the Semites, which is understandable, of course. Wouldn't you?

>>17951371
>Syria" was broadly "Indo-European" until the Arabs invaded
Not reading the rest, larp

>>17950710 (OP)
The nubians bringing tribute are depicted with red hair too
Why do you tards fixate on such trivia? Low iq?

>>17951393
Do you have some kind of eye cancer? The "Nubians" in the tomb don't have red hair or fair skin, or even that yellowish hair. And there aren't even any clearly Nubians in the photo.
Low IQ? Blind? Or just a liar?

>>17951393
>>17951406
no, he's just lying, there are no Nubians in the photo with the features used to represent the Retjenu, The next time you claim to be smart, at least tell the truth.

>>17951413
he is seethe for they look white kek the elite may have been bell beakers once

>>17951423
No, there was no European elite in Egypt, and I won't change my mind until solid evidence is presented. However, these people are intriguing because of their characteristics, but as this anon has attested>>17950789
we don't know about their identity beyond a vague and general name for "Asian."
>bell beaker
If it's what I'm thinking, that sample was fake.

>>17950710 (OP)
The Egyptians depicted the Themehu (Libyans/Berbers) as fair-skinned as well and the Greeks/Romans called them "White Ethiopians" since considered Aethiopia as the whole MENA.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-modern_conceptions_of_whiteness
>"The first are RETH, the second are AAMU, the third are NEHESU, and the fourth are THEMEHU. The RETH are Egyptians, the AAMU are dwellers in the deserts to the east and north-east of Egypt, the NEHESU are the Cushites, and the THEMEHU are the fair-skinned Libyans" Book of Gates, chapter VI (Archived 10 March 2016 at the Wayback Machine), translated by E. A. Wallis Budge, 1905

>According to Pliny's older contemporary, Pomponius Mela, the leukaethiopes or "white Ethiopians" were the more remote Berbers of the North African interior (1. 22–23; translated Romer 1998; Goldenberg, 2003, 123)... leukaethiopes or "white Ethiopians", were the lighter-skinned Berber nomads of inner North Africa

>The mummy was forensically tested in 1976 by Pierre-Fernand Ceccaldi, the chief forensic scientist at the Criminal Identification Laboratory of Paris. Ceccaldi observed that the mummy had slightly wavy, red hair; from this trait combined with cranial features, he concluded that Ramesses II was of a "Berber type" and hence - according to Ceccaldi's analysis – fair-skinned. Subsequent microscopic inspection of the roots of Ramesses II's hair proved that the king's hair originally was red, which suggests that he came from a family of redheads. This has more than just cosmetic significance: in ancient Egypt people with red hair were associated with the deity Set, the slayer of Osiris, and the name of Ramesses II's father, Seti I, means "follower of Seth". Cheikh Anta Diop disputed the results of the study, arguing that the structure of hair morphology cannot determine the ethnicity of a mummy and that a comparative study should have featured Nubians in Upper Egypt before a conclusive judgement was reached

>>17951758
>Homer (c. 800 BCE) is the first to mention "Aethiopians" (Αἰθίοπας); he mentions that they are to be found at the southern extremities of the world, divided by the sea into "eastern" (at the sunrise) and "western" (at the sunset). The Greek poets Hesiod (c. 700 BCE) and Pindar (c. 450 BCE) speak of Memnon as the "king of Aethiopia", and further state that he founded the city of Susa (in Elam)

>In 515 BCE, Scylax of Caryanda, on orders from Darius the Great of Persia, sailed along the Indus River, Indian Ocean and Red Sea, circumnavigating the Arabian Peninsula. He mentioned Aethiopians, but his writings on them have not survived. Hecataeus of Miletus (ca. 500 BCE) is also said to have written a book about Aethiopia, but his writing is now known only through quotations from later authors

>Herodotus tells us that king Cambyses of Persia (ca. 570 BCE) sent spies to the Aethiopians "who dwelt in that part of Libya (Africa) which borders upon the southern sea." They found a strong and healthy people. Although Cambyses then campaigned toward their country, by not preparing enough provisions for the long march, his army completely failed and returned quickly

>In Book 3, Herodotus defines "Aethiopia" as the farthest region of "Libya" (i.e. Africa): "Where the south declines towards the setting sun lies the country called Aethiopia, the last inhabited land in that direction. There gold is obtained in great plenty, huge elephants abound, with wild trees of all sorts, and ebony; and the men are taller, handsomer, and longer lived than anywhere else."

>Strabo also stated that some previous authors had considered Aethiopia's northern border to begin at Mount Amanus, thus including all of Syria, Israel and Arabia

>>17951769
>Various Greek myths make reference to the kingdom of "Aethiopia" said to be somewhere in Asia. This kingdom in the myth of Andromeda was placed at Joppa in Phoenicia. Stephanus of Byzantium (c. 500 CE) asserted that the name of Joppa (Yoppa) itself was a contraction of "Aethiopia", and that in antiquity its rule had extended eastward as far as Babylonia

>Cepheus and Cassiopeia, the parents of Andromeda, are presented as the king and queen of Joppa. Pliny the Elder observed a tradition that associated a rock off the coast of Joppa with the mythical rock where Andromeda had been chained. However, the Argonautica says Perseus' "return flight" took him "above the sands of Libya [Africa]".

>Several notable personalities in Greek and medieval literature were identified as Aethiopian, including several rulers, male and female: Memnon and his brother Emathion, King of Arabia. Homer in his description of the Trojan War mentions several other Aethiopians, including Epaphus. Ptolemy the geographer and other ancient Greek commentators believed that the "Aethiopian Olympus" was where the gods lived when they were not in Greece

>The name Aethiopia was also occasionally connected with other locations in Asia, such as Lydia or elsewhere in Asia Minor, the Zagros Mountains, or India. After about 400 CE, there was particularly a great deal of confusion among Mediaeval European geographers as to whether Aethiopia was located in remotest Africa or Asia

>>17951758
>>17951769
>>17951779
>Pliny in turn asserts that the place-name "Aethiopia" was derived from one "Aethiop, a son of Vulcan" (the Greek god Hephaestus). He also writes that the "Queen of the Ethiopians" bore the title Kandake, and avers (incorrectly) that the Ethiopians had conquered ancient Syria and the Mediterranean

>"Then, truly, Phaethon sees the whole earth on fire. He cannot bear the violent heat, and he breathes the air as if from a deep furnace. He feels his chariot glowing white. He can no longer stand the ash and sparks flung out, and is enveloped in dense, hot smoke. He does not know where he is, or where he is going, swept along by the will of the winged horses. It was then, so they believe, that the Ethiopians acquired their dark colour, since the blood was drawn to the surface of their bodies. Then Libya became a desert, the heat drying up her moisture." - Ovid

>Aethiopasque: Greek declension, acc. pl., Roman authors believed that the Ethiopians lived in Asia and Africa; suos: the Ethiopians are 'his' because his mother's husband, Merops, was was the king of Ethiopia, husband of Clymene and adoptive father of Phaethon, his wife's son by Helios

>The ancient writer Julius Firmicus Maternus went as far as claiming the whole of Germany was blonde: "If the characters and complexions of mankind are due to the combinations of planets, and the motions of the planets make up men’s traits, as if in paintings: that is, if the Moon makes people fair-skinned, Mars red, Saturn black, why is the whole population of Ethiopia black, of Germany blond, of Thrace red-haired, as though the Moon and Mars had no strength in Ethiopia, and Saturn could not produce dark coloring in Germany or Thrace?" - Matheseos Libri Octo, ii. 1

>>17950710 (OP)
>Who are they? It's not as if such characteristics were present in Syria at any point in history; quite the opposite, which makes me wonder about the identity of these merchants.
those features were probably present in small percentages, just like in modern Levantines some of whom are white-passing though the vast majority are olive-skinned, dark-haired.

think of how jews have been stereotyped as all having red hair despite the vast majority being dark-haired. It doesn't take much for a stereotype to form.

Red hair was associated with Nubians.

>>17951758
"Ethiop" = "Burnt face";

"Leukaethiopes" = "White-burnt face"; "White-Black People"


Greeks were stupid.

>>17951758
>Cheikh Anta Diop disputed the results
and that a comparative study should have featured Nubians in Upper Egypt before a conclusive judgement was reached


The COPE is seething off the paper. dhey wuz Nubianz n' sheeit.

>>17951758
>The Egyptians depicted the Themehu (Libyans/Berbers) as fair-skinned
incorrect, they depicted them with various skin tones

>The mummy was forensically tested in 1976 by Pierre-Fernand Ceccaldi, the chief forensic scientist at the Criminal Identification Laboratory of Paris. Ceccaldi observed that the mummy had slightly wavy, red hair; from this trait combined with cranial features, he concluded that Ramesses II was of a "Berber type" and hence - according to Ceccaldi's analysis – fair-skinned. Subsequent microscopic inspection of the roots of Ramesses II's hair proved that the king's hair originally was red, which suggests that he came from a family of redheads. This has more than just cosmetic significance: in ancient Egypt people with red hair were associated with the deity Set, the slayer of Osiris, and the name of Ramesses II's father, Seti I, means "follower of Seth". Cheikh Anta Diop disputed the results of the study, arguing that the structure of hair morphology cannot determine the ethnicity of a mummy and that a comparative study should have featured Nubians in Upper Egypt before a conclusive judgement was reached
ramses was not berber

>>17951769
the guys in the middle are middle easterners, not libyans
the libyans are depicted as darker

you are literally spreading misinformation

the 2 pics below are both reconstruction of the same almost destroyed fresco

>>17951758
>>17951769
>>17951779
>>17951806
libyans were described as often brown

>The Sons of Boreas pursued the Harpies to the lands of the Massagetae and of the proud Half-Dog men, of the Underground-folk and of the feeble Pygmies; and to the tribes of the boundless Black-skins and the Libyans. Huge Earth bare these to Epaphus -- soothsaying people, knowing seercraft by the will of Zeus the lord of oracles, but deceivers, to the end that men whose thought passes their utterance might be subject to the gods and suffer harm -- Aethiopians and Libyans and mare-milking Scythians. For verily Epaphus was the child of the almighty Son of Cronos, and from him sprang the dark Libyans, and high-souled Aethiopians, and the Underground-folk and feeble Pygmies. All these are the offspring of the lord, the Loud-thunderer
Hesiod

>The Ethiopians above Egypt and the Arabians had Arsames for commander, while the Ethiopians of the east (for there were two kinds of them in the army) served with the Indians; they were not different in appearance from the others, only in speech and hair: the Ethiopians from the east are straight-haired, but the ones from Libya have the woolliest hair of all men.
Herodotus

>Sailing thence we came to the Lixus, a great river flowing from Libya. By it a wandering people, the Lixitas, were pasturing their flocks; with whom we remained some time, becoming friends. Above these folk lived unfriendly Æthiopians, dwelling in a land full of wild beasts, and shut off by great mountains, from which they say the Lixus flows, and on the mountains live men of various shapes, cave-dwellers, who, so the Lixitæ say, are fleeter of foot than horses.
Hanno The Explorer

>>17952956
that's because they were brown skinned for the most part

>>17951758
>The first are RETH, the second are AAMU, the third are NEHESU, and the fourth are THEMEHU. The RETH are Egyptians, the AAMU are dwellers in the deserts to the east and north-east of Egypt, the NEHESU are the Cushites, and the THEMEHU are the fair-skinned Libyans
this is not a quote from the book of gates, this is something that Wallis Budge said, lmao, and the quote is quite different

https://cdn.preterhuman.net/texts/religion.occult.new_age/occult_library/The_book_of_gates.pdf
>On the left of the path of the boat of Ra are:--1. A hawk-headed god, leaning upon a staff; he is called Horus. 2. Four groups, each group containing four men. The first are RETH, the second are AAMU, the third axe NEHESU, and the fourth are THEMEHU. The RETH are Egyptians, the AAMU are dwellers in the deserts to the east and north-east of Egypt, the NEHESU are the black races and NEGROES, and the THEMEHU are the fair-skinned Libyans. 3. Twelve bearded beings, each of whom grasps with both hands the body of a long serpent; these are called the "Holders of the period of time in Ament." 4. Eight bearded gods, who are called the "Sovereign chiefs of the Tuat." The hieroglyphic text which relates to these groups reads:--

libyans were never described as light skinned by the ancients

>>17952974
the libyans were dark skinned people

>>17951779
Nice human phenotype.net meme pics

>>17952946
Damn look at that blonde middle easterner

>>17952974
>>17952956
this makes sense, these desert people were likely brown

>>17952985
yes, libyans were pretty much brown, but OP was asking about middle easterners

>>17952993
They were described as dark by the ancients

>>17952956
interesting, moroccan berbers were cavemen indistinguishable from ethiopians according to punics, that were not even that white themselves, imagine just how dark and african they had to be to give him that reaction

>>17952974
>On the left of the path of the boat of Ra are:--1. A hawk-headed god, leaning upon a staff; he is called Horus. 2. Four groups, each group containing four men. The first are RETH, the second are AAMU, the third axe NEHESU, and the fourth are THEMEHU. The RETH are Egyptians, the AAMU are dwellers in the deserts to the east and north-east of Egypt, the NEHESU are the black races and NEGROES, and the THEMEHU are the fair-skinned Libyans. 3. Twelve bearded beings, each of whom grasps with both hands the body of a long serpent; these are called the "Holders of the period of time in Ament." 4. Eight bearded gods, who are called the "Sovereign chiefs of the Tuat." The hieroglyphic text which relates to these groups reads:--
oh, so this is a fake quote, people quote this as it was a translation of an ancient text, but it's just something a professor said, it's also pretty obvious by the use of modern words such as "negros" when you think about it

>>17953028
yes, the ancients only described the libyans as dark pigmented >>17952956

>>17952942
they look like pajeets

>>17953093
>The Ethiopians above Egypt and the Arabians had Arsames for commander, while the Ethiopians of the east (for there were two kinds of them in the army) served with the Indians; they were not different in appearance from the others, only in speech and hair: the Ethiopians from the east are straight-haired, but the ones from Libya have the woolliest hair of all men.
Herodotus describes the libyans as no different from the indians in appearance but with curlier hair