Thread 17952021

What was their deal? How were they so influential, was it wealth, conquest, or both? It does seem like they replaced several foreign leaders, but was that them creating puppet states or actual occupation? The change in art and architecture in so many foreign cities definitely seems to indicate either they were forcing their culture on them OR they were very eager to earn their favor.

Lets try to keep the schizo shit to a minimum please.

>>17952021 (OP)
Snowball effect that takes place once a city urbanizes. The more urban a settlement is, the more it can levy taxes and soldiers easily and arm said soldiers due to commerce attracting blacksmiths (or whatever mesoamerican equivalent)

>>17952021 (OP)
2/3 reconstructed btw

>>17952039
uh huh...

>>17952039
What's up with the one or two autists on /his/ spamming this in multiple threads as if it were some big conspiratioral revelation? You do realize that just about every ancient ruin meant to attract tourists is reconstructed to at least some extent and this isn't an uniquely mexican phenomenon like you seem to be implying, right? Is it because the pyramids were overgrown and covered in vegetation so in your silly mind it means that they were a bunch of natural hills big Mexico magically terraformed into pyramids?

>>17952021 (OP)
>The change in art and architecture in so many foreign cities definitely seems to indicate either they were forcing their culture on them OR they were very eager to earn their favor.
Not necessarily. They were a big hegemonic city everybody was trading with and were doubtlessly impressed by, and whom we know had foreigners living in and visiting it on the regular, so it's not as it conquest was the only way they could be aware of their art and architectural styles. Not hard to believe people from distant states would consciously imitate their culture, in the same way some politied in the Near East such as the builders of Petra went out of their way to emulate hellenistic architecture despite not having been conquered by greeks or romans.

>>17952079
>spamming
It's not spam if it's true, and I haven't talked about Mesoamerica in months and months. Your last thread was a while ago, and I wasn't the only one. If that offends you for some reason, that's your problem. I'm not against reconstructions when they're open and clear about it. And let's face it, artistic reconstructions or even drawings of Mesoamerican cities are, at the very least, exaggerated. I'm sorry, anon. If it makes you feel better, I like the history of Mesoamerica five months before the Europeans arrived.

>>17952079
>You do realize that just about every ancient ruin meant to attract tourists
That's the question, you retard. The problem is that the Mexicas are the worst we have because they are fantasies and based on third-hand accounts of Spaniards thrilled with these cities, where they marveled at the descriptions and then we have abominations like this>>17952049

The reason they were so influential is mainly because they were such a great trading hub, coupled with the fact that they were one of the few city-states in Mexico that had access to obsidian. At the end of the day however, it was an overcrowded shitskin hellhole.

>>17952049
These reconstructions are not complete. The Teocalli need to be entire painted.

>>17952111
I haven't ever made a thread about this specific subject, just noticed the surge of posts claiming that mesoamerican history is all faked because reconstruction is a thing that exists. Also, no reconstruction is "open and clear about it", the people behind the Ziggurat of Ur don't usually go out of their way to explain to you that the modern version is a reconstruction done by Saddam Hussein's government or show you pictures of when it looked like a pile of sand. And how exactly do are random drawings "exaggerated"?

>>17952117
What's your issue with it exactly? Do you think the reconstruction itself is ugly? I kind of agree. Are you implying that the site as a whole, even before reconstruction, was an "abomination" in contrast with Spanish accounts? Yeah of course it ain't pretty, it has been entirely abandoned for 400 years and mostly abandoned for well over a thousand at that point.
>because they are fantasies and based on third-hand accounts of Spaniards thrilled with these cities
I wouldn't consider the accounts of people who were actually there to be "third-hand". Also, Spanish accounts AREN'T the only source available to reconstruct late postclassic Mesoamerican architecture, the spaniards and the natives both depicted them in art pretty often, pictures like these aren't just based on words on paper. A lot of the finer details are from depictions of temples in codices and the like.
Anyhow, i'm fairly certain Teotihuacan wasn't reconstructed based on Spanish accounts nor Aztec art, since, as everybody here surely knows, Teotihuacan flourished a thousand years before the conquest. Pretty sure the reconstructions are based on what the ruins looked like beneath the vegetation (there wasnt't just dirt beneath it( and just guessing where the broken pieces of architecture lying around would fit.

>>17952171
theyre just retarded racists who don't know what theyre talking about but are desperate to shit on any nonwhite history

>>17952117
What we know a about the aztecs is not "fantasy", we even have discovered the rests of the temple mayor and the most important aztec statues, now, about the spaniard chronicles, they can't be denied as an important source.
>Abomination
What abomination? Literally the pre reconstruction pyramid of the sun was even bigger than what it is today (Leopoldo batres removed the last layer of the pyramid of the sun and the one he used was the penultimate layer).
If you are saying that the reconstruction is an abomination I also disagree, even though Batres commited errors saying he made an "abomination" is stupid

>>17952039
The facade is 2/3 reconstructed, not the pyramid itself you dumb dumb

>>17952079
I dont think anyone actually believes that it was a naturally hill before the reconstruction.
Leopoldo Batres claims that there were around 2-3 meters of vegetation in the pyramid but compared to the hundreds of meters of the pyramid is nothing, so definetely it wasnt a natural hill.
The people that say that are probably just ragebaiting or smth

I'm more interested in what language they spoke. were they the early nahuatl speakers (very unlikely)? were they totonac speakers? were they oto-mangueans? if so were they otomies or more closely related to oaxacans? shame we will never know since they were autistic and their huge cultural influence over the region single-handedly made every non-yucatec mesoamerican civ into fellow weirdo autists that wrote in funny drawings with limited phonetic elements

>>17952105
Yeah, that's probably how the Olmecs became so culturally influent in the pre-classic period (in the same way the Chavin Culture in the Andes also did).

But Teotihuacan is different. There are textual evidences in maya texts that points towards an actual deliberate intervention by teotihuacanos into maya cities and their politics.

>>17952485
Zapotec,epi olmec, mayan, but the official language of teotihuacan seems to have been either oto manguean or nahuatl.
Teotihuacan was the rome of the americas, and in this city there were lots of distinct ethnic-linguistic groups of all mesoamerica.

>why were they so influential?
Because teotihuacan had the biggest city in the classic mesoamerica (around 120,000 pops).
It was the biggest civilization in the central altiplane of mesoamerica, and obviously that would make other civilizations like the mayans, the toltecs, or the zapotecs to get influence from it.

>>17952171
>I wouldn't consider the accounts of people who were actually there to be "third-hand
So we have a problem here.
Much of the greatness we have was written by Spaniards who didn't actually set foot in these places, therefore, lacking a correct description. See how after the conquest of these places, the descriptions became increasingly exaggerated and glorified. This is the point you refuse to understand and are getting upset about it. And this photo you posted, I looked for the source and it doesn't seem to have much archaeological basis.

>>17953141
In reality both cortez and Bernal Diaz del castillo also described tenochtitlan as a marvelous city.
Its grue that some cronists werent in the conquista, but as cronistas they also did plenty of research for their documents.

>>17952241
>What abomination?
Are you still mad at me or was it because I called you retarded? Don't be mad at me, I'm sensitive and cry easily :(
It's a "reconstruction," but the Mexican government realized the revenue potential and decided to increase it with new stones, not always based on archaeologists' ideas. This is the main problem here. It's not really reconstruction or restoration if you don't strictly follow archaeological precepts, and like it or not, there's the financial aspect... it's undeniable.
The Mexican government carried out many restoration projects at many archaeological sites back then for tourism purposes, attracting attention to the British was one thing.
They commercialized it and never made it public.

>>17953152
and at the same time, they talked about how barbaric and subhuman they were only some time after the ecstasy of discovering a new city wore off as the culture shock took effect between them :)
in fact, although they spoke about these cities this way, it wasn't as if they treated them as some kind of unique human innovation or the greatest civilizational peak they had seen.
These cities were so wonderful in their eyes that they made a point of using Hispanic architecture on these sites, even using stones from these same places and abandoning others without hesitation.

I feel like talking about these pyramids makes you guys really upset.
Hey guys? I feel a flood of semantic responses, but hey, calm down. We can enjoy Mesoamerican history, but without filters of grandeur and hyperbole. Come on, guys, you can be better than this

>>17953170
>Eurocentric seething about other's history
Yeah classic

>>17953175
Oh, how cute.
Have the insults and objections from Reddit already surfaced? Don't be petty, I'm not trolling at all, OP. I'm sorry, but if this makes such a difference to your rabble, I can leave the thread and let you discuss it here, okay? Lunatics.

>>17952079
stonehedge required actual reconstruction.

>>17953159
>adding stones
In Batres 1906 book he says he only changed the mud mortar that united the pyramid for new volcanic tuff and salt mortar, but he commanded that the stones were left at his original place.
>increasing
I already told you the original pyramid was bigger than the one we have now, in his 1908 book Batres says that what he consolidated was the penultimate layer and that he removed the actual last layer of the pyramid
Sources:
https://archive.org/details/teotihuacanmemor00batriala
https://archive.org/details/exploracionesyco00batr

>>17953168
>some kind of unique human innovation or the greatest civilizational peak they had seen.
Lets look how Diaz del castillo described it:
“...and since we saw so many cities and valleys populated in the water and on the mainland and other large towns and that road so straight and by level how Mexico was going, we were amazed and said that it looked like the enchanting things they tell in the book Amadís.

Because of the large towers and buildings that they had in the water and all of them made of lime and stone and even some of our soldiers said that what they saw was in their dreams and it is not surprising that I write here in this way, because there is a lot to ponder in it. I don't know how I tell it, seeing things never heard, nor even dreamed of as we saw...”.

>>17953168
>These cities were so wonderful in their eyes that they made a point of using Hispanic architecture on these sites, even using stones from these same places and abandoning others without hesitation
It would have been foolish not to do so; one of the crown's fundamental goals was to impose Hispanic culture on the New World. Even so, buildings that were not for domestic or religious use, such as ditches, causeways, or aqueducts, continued to be used, although they also acquired a Hispanic influence.

>>17953221
Im sorry, with "ditches" i meant "dimes"
The cause.
The causeways i, refering to are "calzadas" that interconected tenochtitlan with the cities of the lake of texcoco

>>17953225
"Dikes" im sorry again

>>17952021 (OP)
I din't think we will ever get a complete picture of what they were really about. Especially when it comes to the non-physical stuff. Though there's still some shit they have to dig. There may be more to be known.
>but was that them creating puppet states or actual occupation?
I don't think there was a difference between the two in Meso-America. Nearly all polities were leagues of cities orbiting a metropolitan core that (to my knowledge, correct me on this, Mesoanon) usually dictated religious practices to subjects while receiving tribute from them. The Purepecha are a massive anomaly because they actually operated like a state instead of like the Delian league, but they were a very recent development. Conquering a city meant turning them into vassals, too.
But unfortunately I don't think we know much of the specifics of Teotihuacan's invasion of Tikal. Only that it happened because of in inscriptions and Teotihuacan style artifacts found there. Most importantly a whole altar dedicated to a central Mexican deity. But I found a pretty decent article on the subject: https://www.brown.edu/news/2025-04-08/altar
It's very informative and unlike Nature it doesn't paywall you if you procrastinate for too long and keep the tab open for three days.
>he change in art and architecture in so many foreign cities definitely seems to indicate either they were forcing their culture on them OR they were very eager to earn their favor.
Non-interested imitation is also an option. Though I'm sure their hegemony over Central Mexico was the main reason.

>>17953159
Correct
Much are just fake reconstructions

>>17953221
Wrong, Juanito

They discarded it because they didn't think it was as important to preserve as you make it seem, Simply put, the surviving architecture was Hispanic, not native. Your argument falls apart when the Mycenaeans adopted Minoan architecture, the Romans Greek, and so on. Why am I saying this? Because it was useful in terms of civilization, but their precious native architecture was relegated to oblivion.

>>17953201
>Diaz del castillo
and at the same time, as I said, it also mentions things like
>And as we came among the houses we saw how large a town it was, larger than any we had yet seen, and were full of admiration. It was so green with vegetation that it looked like a garden; and its streets were so full of men and women who had some out to see us that we gave thanks to God for the discovery of such a country.
Did you get it? He was describing how when they arrived, they were excited, which is natural to be "amazed" and just report how good and utopian the place was, Columbus literally compared the natives to Adam and Eve due to their purity, even though he later changed his mind after seeing things like cannibalism, I'm saying that the Spanish were having romantic visions at this time.
But as I said, these romantic visions end too soon, so we have descriptions like
>The jar goes into the well until it breaks, and one morning or another we will, no doubt, be sacrificed to idols.
Well, weren't the people as peaceful and welcoming as they were initially said to be?
>>17953244
He's not Mexican

>>17953265
And to illustrate how romantic the Spanish views of the city were, we have passages like this.
>Indeed, I don't believe a country has ever been discovered with splendor equal to this; for Peru was unknown at that time. But, at present, there is no trace of all this, and not a stone of this beautiful city remains.
And if I am familiar with your type, it is also said that the controversial issue of human sacrifice among these Indians was exaggerated or even false, as I have heard, and then they even cite examples from outside Europe to compensate for the... (shame?) But the same source used to highlight how impressive this city is mentions:
>And in this way they sacrificed to all the demons and they ate the stones and the arms, and the hearts and the blood they offered to their idols, as I have said; and the bodies, which were the bellies and the guts, they chased the tigers, the lions, the snakes and the vultures that they had in the house of the demons.
It is incredible to see how little by little the veneration for the natives turns almost abruptly into disdain and a sign of barbarism.
>Then they ate their flesh with a sauce of peppers and tomatoes. They sacrificed all our men in this way, eating their legs and arms, offering their hearts and blood to their idols.
Neither of the two best known chroniclers of the Spanish Conquest, Cortés and Díaz del Castillo, give an estimate of Tenochtitlan’s population.

>>17953275
Finally, I'd like to say that it's unlikely that what the anons are claiming here is true; we don't have a good basis for how big the city could have been. In fact, the closest we've come to this is that the city was "as big as Seville or Córdoba." Some have interpreted this as the physical size, and others have interpreted it as the original text supposedly stating that Tenochtitlán was as big as both combined (Jiménez Martínez, 2021).
which seems like nonsense, by the way.
The truly vital accounts for determining how many people lived in Tenochtitlan come from some suggestive and sometimes contradictory sources. We have a supposed text called "Narrative of Some Things of New Spain and the Great City of Temestitán, Mexico," supposedly written by an "Anonymous Conquistador" who supposedly accompanied Cortés Kek. We have a biography of Cortés written by his secretary. The problem is that he never set foot in Mexico, but he obtained his information from Cortez, whichever is the former or the latter. We have an estimate of 70,000 houses. Pedro Martyr cites 50,000 to 60,000 houses, and we even have outdated accounts (as many here rely on), like Torquemada's, which cite 120,000 houses. I mean, you're treating all of this vaguely; we simply don't know how large it was.

>>17953291
Bonus*******
Part of the problem here is that there really isn't a good reason to accept the accounts of the early Spaniards as absolute truth and absolute truth, because as I've said 5 times here, they are contradictory and often romantic, but to finally leave here empty-handed and at the mercy of these anons with their feelings of grandeur in the thread, I'll try to argue based on estimates beyond mere accounts of Iberian and wonderful bulls
Vaillant says the total population is 300,000, Borah and Cook say 360,000, and Frei Bartolomé cites something that would make even the La Raza guys gasp, citing 1 million (LMAO).
Based on a retarded number of houses, the most exaggerat modern estimate I could find was Soustelle, with 90 houses. Anyway, after this boring bluster, as I said, there's no way to blindly rely on these Spanish reports, but it's a fact that the 60/50 number makes more sense.
But most of them weren't present in Mexico and were third-hand reports.
Buttttttt, to the sadness of many and the tears of others, we have some modern demographic studies, and with greater experimental apparatus than those from the 1950s, and I present to you
Jimenez Martinez (2021)
Basically, he used information from Cortés to obtain an urban area of 9.44 square kilometers and says in the article's conclusion a population density of 8,000 to 10,000/km2, (below most modern urban areas) in line with the comparison with Seville and Córdoba, with a maximum of 75,000 and 95,000 inhabitants :/
The Spanish exaggerated a lot and were gay romanticists
Source:http://www.scielo.org.co/scielo.php?script=sci_arttext&pid=S0122-20662022000100125

>>17952146
shut the fuck up faceapp tranny

>>17953141
>And this photo you posted, I looked for the source and it doesn't seem to have much archaeological basis.
Look at any early colonial document with pictures and you're sure to see all those roof designs.
>>17953275
You're moving the goalposts a lot. You've been told already that there are reliable sources for what their cities looked like and accounrs of spaniards who actually were in those places, and your response to it all is "ok so they were there and they spoke highly of it but they ummm were just excited about it at the heat of the moment or something". What do descriptions of human sacrifice, something the Spaniards were already familiar with by the time they Tenochtitlan (they were also familiar with cities and buildings btw, Tenochtitlan was far from the first Mesoamerican city they visisted), change the fact they thought the city itself was physically beautiful, or the fact that we have many Spanish and native depictions of the buildings and the details they had, which is what this conversation was supposed to be about?
>And if I am familiar with your type, it is also said that the controversial issue of human sacrifice among these Indians was exaggerated or even false,
Nobody familiar with Mesoamerica in a serious way considers the possibility that the well-documented practice of human sacrifice wasn't real. as you're certainly aware, you're not arguing with some silly nationalistic chicanos from LA. They naturally question specific claims, such as those involving specific very high numbers or practices we have no reliable records for, like the claim that the Mexica sacrificed one in every five of their vassals' children or that they kept human slave pens for cannibalistic purposes, not because they want to defend them, but simply because the numbers are hard to believe and those latter two claims do not fit what we know about Aztec sacrificial practices from more detailed, neutral and less propagandistic sources from the same time period.

>>17953320
>but to finally leave here empty-handed
But to finally no one*
And I think I can say one more intriguing thing that took my breath away: how large the city was, and consequently, its population, has a lot of grotesque room for maneuver, and Tenochtitlán consisted of two-thirds of single-story buildings. And if we're honest, and don't let ourselves be blinded by these 3D pretty reconstructions or drawings, if we don't take into account non-residential areas like canals, streets, squares, (as some of you are so fond of) the space available for living areas is necessarily reduced. You know, it's not like I'm a genius saying this, it's like basic architecture
i.e., how big this city was is way overblown.

>>17953326
There was no response or substantial use of arguments until halfway through your post. I've already explained half of it in my other posts. You can read them if you want and if your heart allows it.
But to summarize:
*****Any**** population estimate of Tenochtitlán works with contradictory, scarce, and vague data. And we have backward assumptions incorporated into any modeling, but what we can know is that some estimates postulate a size not so large, and the Spanish accounts should not be used as historical dogma, and were full of romanticism. I'll end here.

>>17953320
Congratulations, you reached the exact population estimate most modern scholars on the subject agree on. What, did you think the 200K people figure was anything more than a relic that lived on in pop-his? You're the first person ITT who brought up population size into the mix btw, pretty sure everybody else was talking about what pyramids looked like.

>>17953326
>Look at any early colonial document with pictures and you're sure to see all those roof designs.
What the hell kind of argument was that, Juan? Are you talking about later drawings? Then they're useless.
>>17953333
you are related to your friend above, both are not Aryans

>>17953320
look at the uterine dilation of these losers lol your city with the smell of blood and ammonia was not so majestic
>>17953343
He didn't say that, stop crying. He cited several estimates, and since there's no reason to believe the one you like best, read it again and stop larping. Wu wuz mexicaz n shietz

>>17953344
How are drawings made by people who saw, and usually were still looking at those buildings, useless? When i say early colonial i mean they were made within same century as the conquest, when Mesoamerican culture was very much still alive and there were pyramid-temples still standing, since naturally they didn't all magically collapse the second Tenochtitlan fell.

>>17953353
The conquest of Eseland occurred between 1519 and 1521. The first map was made in 1525.
Why are you lying?
The author of this trash map, unknown, may have been a Mexican or a conquistador. And it was actually a gift.

>>17953170
>derails the thread with stupid bullshit
>gets mogged by people who actually understand the subject
>"why are you attacking me?"
Get the fuck out of here kid

>>17953353
>>17953362
Things are worse because the so-called oldest map was made by
Friedrich Peypus based on a drawing made by one of Cortez's men.
The guy wasn't even in Mexico, and we don't know what the original drawing looked like.

>>17953374
holy shit the map is not even in hand haha it was made by a literal artist and we can assume how much "artistic freedom" he has by looking at his dramatic works

>>17953333
I love the pic

>>17953348
The whole reason he went on an entire tirade is because of the belief that Tenochtitlan's population sizes are exaggerated. Which, while true to some extent, is not something of any academic significance in the modern day since the estimate he gave at the end is the most widely accepted one in currentyear.
And I'm not Mexican so there's no point in spamming kangz memes, im sorry to say

>>17953362
>>17953374
What exactly do you think the conquest and colonization of Mexico was like? Some genocidal campaign in which the conquistadors killed everybody they came across with, demolished every building they saw and burned every book? No, there were other cities beyond Tenochtitlan, with buildings in them, and those buldings did not magically collapse the second Tenochtitlan fell. There were people living inside those cities, who became citizens of the Spanish Empire. As a result, Spanish friars arrived to record everything they could see and educate the native nobility, who went on to continue making painted books and documents depicting the world they knew from before and after the conquest in both the spanish and native ways. That particular map was not i was referring to, and i have no idea why you would think so unless you really are somehow unfamiliar with Mesoamerican codices but rather documents like the lienzo de tlaxcala, made by natives in the decades following the conquest, as well as fully pre-columbian documents like the Mixtec codices and the Codex Borgia.

OP and his GFs (sameflag) BTFO'd by people who actually understand the subject
>>17953291
these 1 million estimates are based on what exactly

>>17952049
>>17952079
I actually would like to know when these "reconstructions" use modern European methods to build things.

This is the same disinegenuous shit that the Chinese did for the Forbidden city and the tourist parts of the Great Wall.

It's not what the original looked like at all anymore, which completely removes all the mystery and "history" aspects of it. Great you built a nationalist LARP using modern Western construction methods.

Good for you, completely uninteresting for people who love real history.

>>17953392
You didn't answer my argument. Don't confuse me with the guy who argued about how big this city was. I've had 4 posts here. I'm talking about your argument about the map in question, and as already said, you lied and don't know what you're talking about
My posts here>>17953362
>>17953344
>>17953382
the map was made by a guy who wasn't in the campaign and we don't know how faithful the original was, stop being petty and confusing me

>>17953396
>I actually would like to know when these reconstructions" use modern European methods to build things.
>muh europeans
yes, both are fantasy garbage for the most part, is that what you wanted to hear?

>>17953275
No one who reads primaries denies Meso-Americans did human sacrifice lmao. You are fighting mirages here. And furthermore, you almost seem ideologically motivated to minimize the achievements of the Meso-Americans.

>>17953343
>200 k
Nonsense

>>17953398
And i am telling you that i was never talking about that map, at all. You're the one that brought it up first, out of nowhere.
Once again, in simpler terms that you may understand, when I said "early colonial documents", i was NOT talking about your precious map, i was talking about the many surviving documents made by native hands shortly before and after the conquest. You're clearly unfamiliar with their very existence, so you should read about them sometime :)

>>17953408
Yeah i know, that's the point of both our posts

>>17953412
>i was never talking about that map
Which map then? Clown?
Let's see how you embarrassing yourself
>muh
>Look at any early colonial document with pictures and you're sure to see all those roof designs.
>muh
The guy you were replying to was talking about this city you love so much and its representations. Admit that you were wrong. Using the argument
>look at the drawings of people who were there
is not only false, but ignorant

>>17953412
No, I looked at the thread and you're all idiots, none of you are a cop out, but you and the retard above who writes as gay are definitely the worst.
You don't know the difference between a report and an academic estimate.

>>17953405
>No one who reads primaries denies Meso-Americans did human sacrifice lmao
Anon i..

>>17953405
>achievements
I was curious to know what they would be, share
and I don't think he's any more motivated than you to overcome
things

>>17953417
>Which map then? Clown?
None you actual fucking buffoon, again for the last time, there exists a large amount of documents made within the first century after the conquest produced by natives and Spaniards who were physically in Mexico and got to see and interact with the local culture, and those are the documents i was talking about, not your one specific map, What part of it is so hard for you to understand?
If you want a map so fucking badly then look at this one, the Cuauhtlinchan map, made in early colonial times by native hands in a native style with a few minor european accents, which is why it's barely a fucking map in the first place. If you look at it, you will see temples with conical roofs such as one of the pyramids in the reconstruction that started this whole conversation, which is significant because it was made by people who either saw the damn things themselves or were taught by people who did. Do you understand yet or are you still blind to anything that's not the one specific map you love so much?

>>17953430
Again, getting off topic. Okay,
You're wrong, and that's okay. We don't have a map of this original city, other than one made years later by a guy hired by the men who had a map that didn't survive. Unlike what you said, you can't base your work on "settler map drawings" because we don't have them, and none of your photos prove otherwise. Good riddance and stop bothering me.
>there exists a large amount of documents made within the first century after the conquest produced by native
none of them show the city itself or a general representation of it, assume, you lied or made a mistake

>>17953430
If this is the most original representation we have of Tenochtitlan, I'm disappointed.
It only reveals that... wow, they had structures and temples? Where's the city plan? A floor plan, or, depending on the context, it could be an architectural drawing or a sketch

>>17953438
*By the men of cortez
And not your*
But heir*
It's already difficult to write on your cell phone, and with each answer you give we get a shit bomb, it's complicated

>>17953404
I didn't imply anything by "Europeans", I'm obviously referencing the fact that their rebar constructions methods spread in the early modern era.

The problem I have is that rebar allows you to build things that didn't exist before. Monuments (rock piles) get turned into buildings. Pitched earth dirt mounds turned into vertical walls etc.

I would much rather see the original rock piles. I don't want to pay to see "reconstructions" no matter how faithful those tourist money incentivized curators claim them to be.

>>17953445
... not heir*
But their*

>>17953438
The original post you replied to was referring to what the architecture of a particular time period looked like, the point of it was that we knew exactly what their pyramids looked like because they're depicted in native documents pretty often, which is what i've also been doing. You're the one who somehow thinks this is a conversation about Tenochtitlan's layout.
>>17953441
It's a map depicting the migration history an ethnic group from the Puebla region, not one particular city. The lone buildings are representives of larger settelements.

>>17953449
....Why are you pretending to be retarded? Is the joke over? You were debating with a chud above, so you post a trashy, unqualified modern image. The idiot responds that the image is a cope, then in all your splendor, you said that in "colonial drawings" would prove the opposite. This is the context

The problem, now, is that there are no "colonial drawings" made by men who were present in that ass-scented city, get it? So, since you are a stubborn one, it was necessary to show that the oldest map made by anything close to a ""'colonist"" was a paid German. In short, I don't really care how important or majestic this shitty city was (if other anons are correct, perhaps less than we like to think), but your claim of "colonial maps," which is indeed false. Got it, my friend? Now you can kill yourself with these guys above as much as you want, there is no map of the total representation of this city, whether Iberimutt or South Siberian.

>>17953460
No, the context is that this thread got derailed into a conversation aboin modern reconstructions of historical ruins and the legitimacy of the practice. As a result of this shift in subject matter, the sources used to physically reconstruct such individual buildings in the real world were brought up. You are the only and first one in this thread to bring up maps or city layouts, something entirely unrelated to this conversation, which by your own admission, you care and know little about. So, unless you have some valuable insight on 20th century reconstructions of archaeological sites, i suggest you just spam the we wuz kangz memes you're so fond of and give up on barging into conversations you don't even know are about.

>>17953460
No, the context is that this thread got derailed into a conversation about modern reconstructions of historical ruins and the legitimacy of the practice. As a result of this shift in subject matter, the sources used to physically reconstruct such individual buildings, in the real world and in art, which do include colonial drawings, were brought up. You are the only and first one in this thread to bring up maps or city layouts, something entirely unrelated to this conversation, which by your own admission, you care and know little about. So, unless you have some valuable insight on 20th century reconstructions of archaeological sites, i suggest you just spam the we wuz kangz memes you're so fond of and give up on barging into conversations you don't even know are about.

>>17953446
Well, you just need to take a look at the site to figure that out. There are pictures from before the restoration work, if you want those, too.
>Monuments (rock piles) get turned into buildings.
What a stupid artificial distinction to make.
>I would much rather see the original rock piles.
Well, without restoration work you mostly couldn't see anything but dirt and plants, sorry to say. And things you could see would prove to be very like the reconstructions.

>>17953425
The Mesoamericans and Andeans collectively and independently invented:

>agriculture
>pottery and ceramics
>animal domestication
>road and trade networks
>monumental architecture
>urban living/cities on par with ones from Classical anitquity the old world in both population sizes and physical expanse
>copper and bronze working and the production of alloys
>organized armies
>writing and poetry
>philosophy
>semi-complex mathematics and HIGHLY complex astronomy
>Censuses and land surveys
>aqueducts, dikes, and other hydraulics
>True hydraulic cement
>sewage systems and toilets
>Legal systems (written laws, appeliate courts) and advanced forms of government, including senatorial republics, bureaucratic intuitions, etc
>Zoos, aquariums, nature preserves
>Alcoholic beverages
>True fresco technique
>Empirically based medical treatments
>Complex denstrity
>A bunch of other random mundane shit like soap, for instance.

Invented first:
>Domestication of corn, (which is one of the most impressive feats of selective breeding in history period) and many other plants
>Chocolate
>The nixtamalization method
>World's best sanitation and hygiene practices at the time
>True, academic Bontatincal gardens
>Universal public education (probably, some sources say going to school wasn't mandatory for the aztec but most do)
>Chinampas
>The world's first true suspension bridge (potentially)
>The world's largest human monument period, which is also the world's largest pyramid
>a few specific metallurgical techniques/alloys
>Taxonomy
>State managed economies

To name a few.

>>17953700
>John Dee (13 July 1527 – 1608 or 1609) was an English mathematician, astronomer, teacher, astrologer, occultist, and alchemist. He was the court astronomer for, and advisor to, Elizabeth I, and spent much of his time on alchemy, divination, and Hermetic philosophy. As an antiquarian, he had one of the largest libraries in England at the time. As a political advisor, he advocated the foundation of English colonies in the New World to form a "British Empire", a term he is credited with coining

>The ‘scrying glass’ belonging to the Elizabethan magician and astrologer John Dee, now in the British Museum, has long been regarded as one of the most enigmatic Tudor artefacts. While it was allegedly used by Dee in the late 16th century to contact angels and demons, recent geochemical analysis published in the journal Antiquity reveals its origins in the obsidian quarries of Pachuca, Mexico. For the Aztecs who mined and created it, the mirror’s reflective properties may have been seen as deflecting bad spirits, and it was associated with the deity Tezcatlipoca, whose name translates as ‘smoking mirror’, symbolising his powers of premonition and revelation

Philip II of Spain was an inveterate occultist. A lot of persons confuse his religious piety with fanaticism, which was false, he was the one who gave an Aztec Tezcatlipoca's magic black mirror to the occultist John Dee during his stay in England. He also ordered the construction of his palace, Escorial, in the image and likeness of Solomon's temple in Jerusalem, a fact that complements his custom of wearing black clothes, not so much because of his religiosity but because he was looking for, following the advice of the Arabic grimoire Picatrix (which he kept along with many other esoteric books in his palace library) attract the influences of the planet Saturn, that is, knowledge but also melancholy.

>>17953159
in what fantasy world are you living in where every government on earth except mexico's makes it loud and clear for everybody that their big famous tourist attractions are all modern reconstructions that looked unimpressive beforehand? its public information anyone can look up as shown by the guy who has repeatedly been telling you you're wrong and clearly has the actual source on what the reconstruction proccess was like

>>17953374
Yes, but as you said, its based on a real map that either was made by a tlacuilo.or a conquistador.
In fact it has most of the things we know about Tenochtitlan (templo mayor, the statue of a decapitated God, the albarradon, the calzadas, the aqueducts, the house of moctezuma, or his zoo)

>>17953374
Most of the foundations of the most important Aztec buildings described in chronicles and depicted in maps have been unearthed and we know their exact locations in Mexico city today

>>17953398
The thing is that the one who made the map was someone who was in the conquest.
We know this because Cortez in his 2° missive also sent a map of Tenochtitlan, so it seems that the map of Nuremberg is based in this map or Cortez.

>>17954185
*of

Can we at least go back to the original topic of the thread and talk about Teotihuacan's urban planning instead Tenochtitlan seethe is boring and overdone

So I guess its just 100% impossible to discuss Mesoamerica here without uneducated poltards derailing it with nonsense?

>>17954443
Its hard for me to comprehend a city taking an hour plus to cross on foot in a time when metal tools or even wheels weren't commonplace yet. The shit Mesoamerica pulled off with ropes and baskets its absolutely mind boggling.

Though honestly I just have a really hard time accepting that Mesoamerica didn't use wheels, it just doesn't make any sense

Water.

>>17955006
>>17955009
>>17955011
>>17955013
>>17955014
>>17955016
>>17955017
>>17955024
Fucking awesome thanks anon, so well preserved!

Traveling thousands of kilometers on foot just so you could coup some stupid jungle city-states down south must have been either really fucking awesome or hellish

>>17953141
>And this photo you posted, I looked for the source and it doesn't seem to have much archaeological basis.
The aztecs made multiple clay models of their architecture, we have precolumbian pottery that depicts their buildings + drawings from the conquest + the ruins of the buildings themselves, you're just very retarded and gay and you should kys

>>17955127
Also some of these still have the colors that the original buildings had

>>17955114
Just a random anon passing by, how Aztec was the outside of El Macho’s lair? Or was it more Mayincatec?

>>17955138
it looks more incan than anything

>>17955138
this >>17955143

>>17954708
I've been to Tikal and the roadways are really cool. The actual park is so big, you definitely can see the space being a big city.

There's a market area, plaza, long winding roadways along residential housing. The ball courts were surprisingly small, but that may be due to thats the way the mayans liked them opposed to other Mesoamericans.

>>17955143
>>17955227
>>17955232
Thanks

>>17953700
Chinampas look so kino

>>17956631
its only like 15% excavated too, most Maya cities are like that since its so hard to clear out the jungle, plus lets be honest, people just don't give a shit about mesoamerican archeology.

I was watching a lecture series on mesoamerica and like every other video the professor was saying "yeah we know theres some huge pyramid mounds over there, maybe an entire city there, theres these ruins here that nobody knows anything about because it hasnt been surveyed, this area held some ruins that were properly important but they got bulldozed, etc etc. Its an absolute shame, we've probably found maybe 10% of what's out there, and more and more is being looted or destroyed every day.

>>17956944
Imagine the smell