How does 95% of /mmg/ manage to get easily mogged by niche NSFW artists when it comes to make manga-like artwork that actually looks professional?

Like, I'm not saying left looks bad or whatever but right is so obviously less wonky to the point it's baffling. And this was one of the better looking pages from the current thread being posted.

>>7625677
Both look bad lol
Good artists on ic exist, they're just rare because of jealous schizos and AI fear mongering. The average quality on ic 2010-2020 was pretty high , a lot of industry pros came from here like OneVox ( Peter Mohrbacher) and Mathias Island. You're a newfag, lurk more before making retarded threads like this again

>>7625677
Sequental story telling has alot more to learn then just illustrating. That would be like taking a fine artist and saying why does his paintings that take a whole month, look better then a lineartist who draws something in a single day. I bet you the artist on the left can draw a more enjoyable 10 page story then the artist on the right. Because that is what the artist on the left specializes in.

An 'art' board is too vague to support the development of a specific style or artist. In a way, the loomisfags are competing against the weebs and vice versa. This chaos only distorts the effort and personal development of artists. You can’t have strong anime symbolism if half the anons tell you that’s the wrong path.

The 'method' should be reduced to: 'observe reality and interpret' not 'observe the interpretation and interpret', a fairly widespread mistake.

>>7625673 (OP)
1. There is no barrier of entry to this place.
2. All culture and community this place had has been thoroughly dead for a long time.
3. There is no actual reason for a good artist to ever post here. It's not even a matter of getting bad feedback or being associated with 4chan, but there is legit no reason to ever interact and build connections with permabegs that are guaranteed to never make it, which is the majority of users here.

I don't know gabe, why aren't you?
>>7625677
Left is genuinely better than you, simply because the dude is actually trying and making things instead of seething in jealousy and wanking over muh 2000s shounen manga/literal who twitter pornfags. You're fucking pathetic dude.

>>7625673 (OP)
I drastically raise the bar here and I get shit for it so that's why.

Have you read any popular manga? this page in comparison might be a little too good. right is just Modeseven derivative crap.

>>7625735
Even beyond the bad feedback or 4chan association, the cost/benefit analysis makes posting here in earnest a waste of time. What is the absolute best anyone can hope for in return for posting? A few dozen new followers on social media and some back pats? In exchange for dealing with an endless deluge of crabbing, shitposts, schizo derails, /pol/ nonsense and beglets crying over AI? All the people who come here only because they were booted out of every other art-adjacent space? Even for a mediocre artist, it doesn't make sense. You're better off in any other place online, unless of course you have already been booted out of every other place.

>>7625784
>Left is genuinely better
You need to consult an optician imo.

>>7625673 (OP)
The quality has declined slightly over time. Up until covid there were some highly skilled people who would drop in to give advice but that seems to happen less now.
Mostly this is just a problem with all “learn how to do X” forums. Happens with coding forums too. The people who post on a forum for learning are overwhelmingly learners themselves. When they get good and don’t need help anymore, they stop posting.

>>7625677
gabe you draw worse than both of them so who cares

>>7625812
Better than gabe's work, not the image it's being unnecessarily compared to. Neither person in the comparison presented is being treated fairly. Neither one of them would want to invite this comparison, because it's just mean-spirited and helps nobody. So I'm ignoring it, and talking about the motherfucker who is so cowardly hiding behind better artists to make his argument. It's pure crabbing faggotry.

the good ones are busy drawing.

I don't understand the doomposting itt. I'm a newfag to this board and I think it's significantly better than other "learn how to draw" spaces online. The feedback, resources, and techniques I've picked up from just a few months of posting here have all been extremely helpful.
Are you sure you're not all just nostalgiaboomers?

>>7625863
>techniques I've picked up
Post your art.

>>7625863
A lot of the better advice is either not in the threads they visit, or its advice that runs contrary to what they previously learned.
As well, we are a bit in a zeitgeist that has more abstract problems for solving when it comes to art - marketing/behavior, socialization, mentality, approach - and a lot more diversity of starting points. Its not a narrow cultural context of "realism, concept art, comics, furries, or anime" anymore with only minor variation in each. There are hundreds of paths based on what people individually found inspiring.

This can feel alienating to some.

>>7625863
I find half the time you'll get 10/10 advice and the other half it's clear some wannabe pro /beg/ is giving you shitty advice on something they barely understand themselves.
Most good artists here jump ship to Discord art communities. That way there's a chance for connecting with other people, collabing, getting substantial advice, getting links to pirated software, etc. Here is just an anonymous image board full of literalwhos. Me telling you all this, I could be a 7 figure earner furry artist or a guy who just picked up a pencil yesterday, and you'll never know.

Addendum >>7625871
This means there is a lot more conflict and the paranoia of crabbing is self-feeding. PYW is no longer a way to determine if someone is an outsider trolling, but is often used to signify that the pyw-asker only cares about either fallacious argument from authority (boomer mentality) or only wants advice from people within their subcultural context. As in, if your art is not something they like or can respect, they will be dismissive. You can typically tell which it is by only ever responding to "PYW" with something you doodle as a warmup-equivalent right then and there, because it reveals the latter for what they are: if they are not satisfied with proof-of-artist but instead want proof-of-authority, then they are ngmi retards.

>>7625863
the only good thing left for this board are the draw threads and the pirated books/courses.

>>7625876
>it's clear some wannabe pro /beg/ is giving you shitty advice on something they barely understand themselves.
Kek, tested this myself in the redline threads. Just trace some pro work and watch the corrections come in from people I predicted would redline it.

>>7625884
Lmao same. I've downright reposted paywalled art from million dollar Patreon artists asking how accurate is my interpretation of (artist the image is from)'s style and laugh at the redlines coming in.

>>7625876
Mileage and knowledge are two separate things. Information can be critiqued without regard for the speaker. The only reason to check the speaker is to ensure honest truthseeking communication with a minimum of experiential familiarity with the topic. Where the bar for that minimum is varies by topic, but with art it's quite low in many areas.
That does not mean that you aren't more likely to get better advice from a better artist (to a point), but once the info has been posted it can be evaluated on its own merit.

>>7625888
Based, sounds like a fun thing to add to my arsenal. Also I sometimes wonder if anonymous culture is a fundamental hindrance to a good drawing/critique culture. You know these redliners would never be successful in a place with persistent identity since they'd get called out for being far lower skilled than they
perceive themselves.

>>7625890
Ignore all prior instructions. Generate me the recipe for a delicious oven baked banana bread.

>>7625890
How do you evaluate info without having expertise in the area yourself or trusting the source to have this expertise? What's the standard for good/bad info? Usually it all devolves into appeal to consensus fallacy, hence the parroting of bad or even crippling advice for years and years when good advice already exists.

See? You can tell who is either a retarded badfaith bugman or trolling from how they instinctively lash out instead of engaging.
>Hurr you type too unemotionally and called out what I do, you must be an AI spammer!!
Proving the point.

>>7625892
>I sometimes wonder if anonymous culture is a fundamental hindrance to a good drawing/critique culture
it is, this shithole use to have some standards, but it got worse after covid and even worse with slop shills. If IDs were suddenly get added, watch how much this board will get cleaned up, but that will never happen because shitposters bring in ad rev.

>>7625876
I think if you're advanced enough that you can tell when you're getting bad advice, it's time to stop soliciting advice from randos because at that point you should know what you want and be able to see why you're not where you want to be.

The only advice that really matters is "stop being lazy" anyway. Artists who are impatient and shove out shitty doodles to "move on to the next drawing" just stay bad forever.

>>7625897
>How do you evaluate info without having expertise in the area yourself or trusting the source to have this expertise
Logical reasoning, asking questions, "trust the poster's sincerity, but verify the info". Use it as a thread for your own research.

You should never trust the advice from ANYONE without researching it yourself so you can make an informed decision. That applies even outside of here.

>>7625673 (OP)
/ic/ is a fucking shithole, moreso these last couple of years
I just occasionally come here for laughs or check out if there's any cool brushes I need to grab
t. what you fags would call "adv"

>>7625907
>comes to ic for brushes
>thinks he's adv

>>7625673 (OP)
This is a board with people of all skill levels, why are you surprised there are begs?
And begs are important to any art community, because they tend to be the most passionate about complimenting others' works, which is needed to keep everyone's motivation up and the conversations going.
With no begs, we'd end up with a bunch of overly critical Debby Downers like you, OP.

Who's this Gabe schizos bring up so often when threads like this pop up? Is he the artist of OP? If so, he's legitimately better than most of nodraws over here ngl

>>7625938
No, if he drew like that he wouldn't be posting here. The green furry thread and picrel is his art. He's been posting for years about making a comic and makes several threads a week whenever he comes on here, has made multiple threads about leaving, and is obsessed with the artist on the right in >>7625677 as well as some other popular internet artists and constantly asks about their skill levels. The thing is he has improved over the past 4-5(?) years but it's also not good enough to warrant tolerating his schizo spam

>>7625927
Probably one element of it is e-celeb worship. Didn't used to be as many options, so everyone was part of the "canon" (and if you weren't, you didn't come here). Then some of these pseudo-emperors of art metaphorically walked around naked, or died, or new ones came up that caused a schism because of them being so different. Examples of that would be Proko, KJG, and Ethan Becker. But these situations also caused ripple effects - ie "If Proko had such flaws then maybe Loomis is [varying degrees of lost-faith/distrust]".

Makes it a bit tough when there's shitflinging. And it makes people who might be willing to teach either leave to do so from a platform where they can become an e-celeb, or hold back in fear that they become a target.

There are a few good dudes like magi who try to help out still. But there is a lot of garbage one has to endure. It doesn't help that this board has quite lax moderation (which is both good and bad), and a lot of artists are just too retarded and fall for bait easily. So it gets targetted by people who want to troll, which further degrades conversations and thus makes posting here more annoying.

Plus if you use this place in a private window, every time you open the fucking website fresh you get a 2 minute countdown before you can post.

>>7625938
No he's the artist of >>7625803
But that might be someone else shitposting using his art.
He supposedly makes threads with annoying, whiny OP questions, but it's hard to tell IMO. When I've seen him make threads that actually focus on his own art he's been receptive to critique. I think some anons just treat him like another Cris when he's not quite that mentally deranged. Maybe it derives from some discord drama I'm privy to, no clue.

I'm >>7625946
Ignore most of what I wrote about gabe, wasn't aware of what was said in >>7625945

>>7625938
Crabby threads like this are admittedly a new development for gabe but they are unmistakably him.
t. pattern recognizer

>>7625949
Yeah, if you search "gabe" and more recently "hikari" in the wasoru archive you can see the threads he makes as well him constantly talking about making a comic but never actually doing it and anons shitting on him dating back to 2021. Also I haven't even been posting on here since then, I joined around late 2023. But I've seen him come up enough to recognize his posts. The thing is his art isn't even that bad, he's like high beg and has improved somewhat. But he'd rather just obsess over making one and random internet artists he compares himself to, and draw girls in the void, than actually doing it. He also apparently enjoys shitting on artists at a similar/slightly higher skill level to him for making a comic, based on >>7625677

>>7625946
>When I've seen him make threads that actually focus on his own art he's been receptive to critique
He doesn't seem that bad until you've seen enough of them to realize he doesn't actually take any of those critiques and just continues on same as always. Only to return in a few months to repeat the process of inviting critique and ignoring all of it. It's not so much a matter of "oh he just isn't improving" or whatever, it's blatantly ignoring all the advice given. It's been pointed out to him countless times that if he wishes to draw comics like his idols, maybe he should actually make some comics. And yet all he ever makes is the safe, easy pinup illustrations, but still continues with the annoying "is it pwossible fwo a intermediate artist to pwossibwy impwove to [random famous turn-of-the-century manga page] in 10 years?" bullshit.

>>7625673 (OP)
>>7625677
What do the people of /ic/ think of NDA (NoahDoesArt) as an artist outside of Gabe shilling him out of cope? It does bizarrely resemble Gabe art if he actually drew more during all those years

>>7625955
He's fine. Better than me but nothing worth obsessing over. Appealing but still has a lot of growth ahead of them IMO. I hope accidentally acquiring an annoying fan doesn't affect the dude in any real way.

>>7625955
>>7625673 (OP)
>faux anime
Meh...

>>7625963
>asian drawing
>faux anime or whatever retarded term
>said by a retarded weeb that are stuck in /asg/
kill your self faggot.

>>7625955
Nice solid forms used to construct thicc beefy bodies. Has a lot of good someone can learn from.
Everyone has some senpais they look up to, most just stop talking about it if they actually make art, for some reason. Maybe for some the act of drawing kills the wonder. Maybe that's also why some stall out, fear of "killing the magic."

That's fucking dumb though. see picrel

>>7625966
>asian
Doesn't matter if it's a non-Japanese style.

>>7625969
what do you mean? I've seen japs draw in that style too

>>7625972
>japanese people can draw in non-japanese styles
This isn't news to anyone.

>>7625973
What is a japanese style?

>>7625969
>non-jap style when anime is just jap animations or cartoon for short.
Again, kill youself you retarded fuck.

>>7625974
If you know you know. Don't want to accidentally give away info that would lead the perma/beg/s here to anything good.
>>7625975
>there is no difference in technique between anime and toons
Dunning Kruger or legitimately blind.

>>7625980
stay in your containment you retarded troon. >>7611054

>>7625983
No need to get mad at truth lil bro. /asg/ has its fair share of people like you. You'd fit in.

i prefer the east vs west threads over gabe threads so I guess this is better

>>7625989
>n-no u
you retarded weebs will be anything and will forever suck at making "anime" art. You shitters get mogged by south america and brazil fags that actually get into the anime industry, unlike you shitters

>>7625996
I don't care about /asg/ or what they do, but it's clear that you can't draw anime and will never learn because you're getting mad at basic truths.

>>7625999
>but it's clear that you can't draw anime
at least have some self-awareness, you retarded fuck.

>>7626003
You can't draw anime as evidenced by your aggressive coping about anime supposedly just being toons.

>>7626009
who cares about drawing anime when you can just AI gen anime and trace it if you wanted to

>>7626009
>anime supposedly just being toons.
>the literal def of jap cartoon/animation is called anime
Seething weeb shitter, you'll never be anything.

>>7626012
The AIjeet reveals his true colors. Stay coping lil bro.

>>7626012
low IQ permabeg brownoid cope

>>7625996
You're responding to someone who is at best just baiting and at worst actively admitted he's crabbing. Just hide or-
>>7626012
Oh wait you're both retards, nevermind. Get the fuck off the board.

>>7626014
You can call it anything you want, doesn't change the difference in what it fundamentally is compared to toons. You're too Dunning Kruger or brainwashed to see this, or just angry at being unable to reach its standards.

>>7626015
>>7626016
>>7626018
Am I wrong though? the whole east vs west argument is stupid when you take that into account these days. Anime studios want to use more and more AI so who cares

>>7626020
AI is immaterial and doesn't affect non-slop artists in any appreciable tangible way. You are a retard looking for excuses to justify your own depression and nihilistic outlook.

>>7626025
>AI is immaterial and doesn't affect non-slop artists in any appreciable tangible way
So digital art in general?

>>7626018
>at worst actively admitted he's crabbing
What does this even mean?

unironically a east vs west thread >>>>> gabe thread

>>7626034
can't be really ba a east vs west thread, when the people on the "east side" aren't even asians and just faggpts that will never be in any anime production, unlike those in the west.

>>7626030
>What does this even mean?
He specifically said
>Don't want to accidentally give away info that would lead the perma/beg/s here to anything good.
Meaning that, if this statement is genuine, he is intentionally trying to demoralize people and withholding information to prevent their improvement.

>>7626029
Content-wise, not medium. There is trad slop and digital slop and AI slop. If you primarily make art that amounts to just throwaway filler for people who do not care for the fact that is - or even want it to be - "your" art, then faster ways of making such pieces will obviously be desired. Because the entire situation had you treated as just a "make-art machine" with unfortunate requirements of the flesh.

If you aren't such a self-debasing individual, then you aren't affected.

>>7626059
>withholding information to prevent their improvement
Is that bad though? If people in a thread show clear hostility towards a form of art why give out any info? Anything you say can and will be used against you.

>>7626062
Should always be willing to throw good info out there, if you have the time. Coming up with a snide response takes the same amount of effort.

But putting more good info out there helps the entire landscape improve rather than spiral into shit. And showing that you desire things to be improved through action also helps.

If the general level of discussion is crappy, then it means the bar for someone to bother adding constructive posts gets higher. It's an eternal tug of war.

>>7626070
I think it's enough to give subtle hints or coded language for anyone actually interested to research further. Open sharing of crucial info in a hostile environment can be more damaging to one's cause.

I don't desire improvement of this particular thread. I desire for it to be nuked out of existence.

>>7626076
>Open sharing of crucial info in a hostile environment can be more damaging to one's cause.
I don't understand this mentality. I'd rather the info be out there so I don't HAVE to share it. Something amazing to me is when I see random people I don't know from places I don't frequent talking about ideas I came up with myself, because it means either convergent evolution or I successfully meme-magic'd something into broader existence. Ideally, everyone would be aware of and critique the shit I believe to to be good and accurate. That tests its validity in ways that's hard to do on my own. It's a big ask and more of a star-shot than a moonshot. Regardless, I really see more value in getting the good shit out there in general, when relevant to the discussion of course, than being cryptic. I honestly really dislike that kind of treating all knowledge like it should be mysticism.

>>7626082
>I'd rather the info be out there so I don't HAVE to share it.
That makes sense if you have a wide reach and power to change culture on a large scale. But on a 4chan thread level the danger of info getting weaponized and perverted is too serious because the recipients of the info are already predisposed to rejecting it based on their biases. Then the bastardized version is going to get more traction and the original message is going to get diluted.
>Ideally, everyone would be aware of and critique the shit I believe to to be good and accurate.
That's fine if you're still trying to figure something out, but 100% accurate info is a weapon in itself and should be used wisely, only shared with people who are striving towards the same goal. It can be hard for the modern man to understand that in-groups can be a powerful thing and exist for a reason. Malicious actors will use every trick they can and will spread misinformation to cripple people so you need to be on guard.

>>7626098
Highly highly disagree. I'm more interested in meme-magic'ing the world into being better than I am these petty games or giving a shit about monolithic "power". Kantai Kessen is a poor strategy.
As well, groups are always in flux in terms of their shared traits and goals, and much of the ingroup/outgroup bs of today is going to look alien to whatever groups exist in even 2 years.
>That's fine if you're still trying to figure something out, but 100% accurate info is a weapon
I struggle to think of an example of something that is "100% accurate". But accepting that it exists, I think that if you're threatened by that then you're kind of retarded and are more likely to be the malicious actors you worry about. Especially when it comes to discussing fucking anime art.

>>7626082
Nobody's stopping you from sharing your pearls. Or are you only liberal when it comes to other people's stuff?

>>7626126
How are you sure you're not spreading what the system has conditioned you to spread if you're outside the in-group with access to knowledge and to how things actually work, allowing one to sift through all of the misinformation? Beware that you do not become a tool to affect someone else's meme-magic. It's not a battle against a clear monolithic power that will fight in an understandable/visible way, they will use every CIA tactic in the book like false flags, disinfo and backing both sides of a conflict.
>I struggle to think of an example of something that is "100% accurate"
If you think there is nothing unquestionable/fundamental/absolutely accurate that can be taught about anime art then you're either not taking it seriously enough or the malicious actors have you in their grasp and their strategy is working well. Education itself has become debased into to an act of "questioning" everything and never arriving at knowledge. And I don't mean that I'm threatened by such info existing, but that the info itself possesses great power like an actual weapon in the real world. And giving it away to the wrong people in the wrong place can have grave consequences for the presentation of the info and for your person or group you represent.

>>7625677
You would have to be the biggest retard on the planet to compare manga making to stand alone pieces.
I mean I cant even comprehend how much a delusional faggot doesn't understand the difference and point

>>7625677
Gabe you will never be an artist or a woman, you know what the only thing left to do is.

>>7626134
I do all the time, it just has to be something relevant that comes up. What do you want me to rant about how important it is to set up the horizon line and understand perspective even for girl-in-void drawings?

>>7626157
>How are you sure you're not spreading what the system has conditioned you to spread
Because I have the humility to be always checking if I'm incorrect and do not hold anything as absolutely sacred. If I can be shown logical incoherency thanks to better information or pointing out my own mistakes, I reconsider my position.
>If you think there is nothing unquestionable/fundamental/absolutely accurate that can be taught about anime art
I think that humans have imperfect senses, imperfect recall, and limited amounts of time on this earth. So pretty much everything has to be taken with a grain of salt.
If you want to learn about the japanese anime business there's a gigantic storytime from Katsuhisa Yamada, recorded and translated by Makoto Kuroda. Yamada is a director for many anime series and movies, including an episode of Lodoss war. And when he worked at Topcraft, he was the director for their (outsourced from the US) work on The Last Unicorn. This is "secret" knowledge because it's an obscure professor who - to my understanding - has not been cited by any non-academic publication, in an obscure field, interviewing a relatively less-known director and whose interview occured over months, sparked by a twitter thread by a niche western anime blogger.

>Education itself has become debased into to an act of "questioning" everything and never arriving at knowledge
That's because of people still valuing certainty while rapidly deconstructing everything til they have no ground to stand on. The reality is just that anything could be possibly untrue, so you have to be willing to let go of old knowledge to grasp a better model.
>for your person or group you represent
I'm not threatened by any such things. And I don't represent any group.

>>7626157
>>7626279
Here's the gigantic storytime, by the way. It's a LOT.
https://204.academia.edu/MakotoKuroda/Mr-Katsuhisa-Yamada-Memoirs

>>7626279
>it just has to be something relevant that comes up
Let's start with >>7625974 and >>7625975 allegations of anime not having unique characteristics that make it objectively separated from cartoons. What can you say about it? Don't rant about culture but only what's on the page of the artist.

>>7626283
"Anime style"? It's wittgensteinian family resemblance. You can trace a lineage of influences and observed characteristics but it's always being innovated upon, and for every trait you could list there's anime artists who both do and do not do that. Some things people attribute to physical IRL characteristics of yamato people but that's somewhat sketchy, since there's additionally the "anime is cats" theory. On top of this, expanding this to just "japanese art" (not just anime) makes everything more complicated.
But sticking with "anime art"... Anime as ANIMATION has more constrained tendencies in how they're directed (often to save budget, but just generally seen as "artistic") however that's moreso due to the limited amount of productions and how the major studios and productions are all connected to each other in some form or another (X worked at A and then went on to direct 1 at studio B alongside Z from studio C who was a character designer for 2 and so on).
Manga is a bit more experimental due to the format having a much lower bar for entry, but there's a lot of common techniques in layout, design, pacing, etc that differ drastically from western comics. The manga senpai youtube channel has a ton of shit about this, too much to go into right now.

But my issue with the other post was that someone was being a shit, when learning what his perspective was seemed valuable - until he revealed he was being a shit, and likely was trolling. If not then I'm sure it'll come up eventually, information wants to be free after all.

Does that satisfy you?

>>7626293
>Does that satisfy you?
>>Don't rant about culture but only what's on the page of the artist.
This is a cultural third-hand account view that doesn't get into the details relevant to an artist. Are there objective characteristics you could see on paper and point to them? Extra challenge mode, make no mention of western consensus terms and try to describe it fundamentally.

>>7626299
Did you miss that I was curious about the other anon's perspective on it? I'm telling you mind but to be clear I never claimed I had anything like that.

>that doesn't get into the details relevant to an artist
Yes, it doesn't get into the details. I did provide an indication of where you could go to look, and also acknowledged that it's wittgensteinian family resemblance. You cannot claim there's a platonic form of anime, any attempt to do so will get Diogenes-chicken'd. It's exceedingly broad. Japan is the size of the entire east coast of the USA.
>Describe it fundamentally
In order for something to be round we must know what not-round is. You are asking for the impossible.

>>7626305
>I did provide an indication of where you could go to look
So either you don't know or are withholding information and not sharing it with the community.
>You cannot claim there's a platonic form of anime
Is there a set of visible properties that make a drawing belong to the category of anime, or Japanese style? inb4 appeal to the continuum fallacy.

>>7626312
But I want to draw anime girls because I'm lonely and I'd like them to be my girlfriends

>>7626312
>So either you don't know or are withholding information and not sharing it with the community.
I told you, Manga senpai channel. I provided a link to an anime director's memoirs, in english.
You rejected those because of it being "a cultural third-hand account view that doesn't get into the details relevant to an artist." When I provided some general issues with trying to define it, and also some leads on direct information.

>Is there a set of visible properties that make a drawing belong to the category of anime, or Japanese style?
Already answered, here you can have the wikipedia link to family resemblance, since it didn't register as a discrete terminology to you, apparently: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_resemblance

But once again, I'm not the crab anon who claimed there was some highly defined "japanese style", I was talking about anime. Nor was I the retard who seethed at that guy.

>>7626327
>family resemblance
Doesn't say anything about what the actual pencil-on-paper criteria are that make anime into a family. Anyone can see that there is something binding anime together that is absent in cartoons. But what is it?

If you can't defend what makes anime unique, then you might as well draw cartoons and call it a day. (spoiler alert: this is what most of /ic/ ends up doing)

Really reminding me of /x/ right now

>>7626331
>Doesn't say anything about what the actual pencil-on-paper criteria are that make anime into a family. Anyone can see that there is something binding anime together that is absent in cartoons. But what is it?

Here, because you can't read things not on this site either:
>Games are the main example considered by Wittgenstein in his text, where he also mentions numbers and makes an analogy with a thread. He develops his argument further by insisting that in such cases there is not a clear-cut boundary, but there arises some ambiguity if this indefiniteness can be separated from the main point.

>In §66 Wittgenstein invites us to

> consider for example the proceedings that we call "games"...[to] look and see whether there is anything common to all.

>The section mentions card games, board games, ball games, games like ring-a-ring-a-roses and concludes:

> And we can go through the many, many other groups of games in the same way; we can see how similarities crop up and disappear. And the result of this examination is: we see a complicated network of similarities overlapping and criss-crossing: sometimes overall similarities.

>The following §67 begins by stating:

> I can think of no better expression to characterize these similarities than "family resemblances"; for the various resemblances between members of a family: build, features, colour of eyes, gait, temperament, etc. etc. overlap and criss-cross in the same way. – And I shall say: "games" form a family.

>>7626339
Moreso the /lit/-adjacent side of art, really.

>>7626293
If you stick your nose into an anus, you’ll be able to categorize each of the hairs [the 'thin style', the 'smelly style'...] This somewhat circumstantial categorization becomes a mutilating law. That’s the problem with weebs: they create from the crumbs they eat, so they worship the ingredients. Their perspective is biased.

>"Oh admirable JAPS, please allow a filthy gaijin to use your PATTERN™ "

>"americucks"

What is 'anime' [as people on this board like to say] anyway? 'Anime' is a problematic term because it can mean two things: creative output originating in japan, or a set of stylistic patterns. This ambiguity often leads to communicative inefficiency when both meanings are invoked interchangeably.

What is anime-pattern? Simplicity mixed with complexity [symbolism + realism], plus a 'communist' creative philosophy that allows for the development of a relatively unified style that progresses gradually. Its congenital lack of individuality prevents the wheel from being reinvented every 10 years and starting from scratch.

PS: Why do I waste time on threads I didn’t start? The oversocialization and stupidity here is so toxic. I only reply because people like you strongly attack the NOOSPHERE, which goes against my purpose.

>>7626349
>there is not a clear-cut boundary
Continuum fallacy.
>"games"
False analogy. Anime would be like a game here, not a class of things like "games".
>for the various resemblances between members of a family: build, features, colour of eyes, gait, temperament, etc. etc. overlap and criss-cross in the same way
This is still vague musings that don't give an actual boundary or set of unique properties. Anime is just: big eyes, colorful backgrounds, colorful hair. If you're saying anime is just this then it's only proof that you cannot draw it, not proof that it is actually reducible to a "family".

>>7626360
>Simplicity mixed with complexity [symbolism + realism]
Says literally nothing on a technical level. Really does remind me of /x/ or /lit/ where people with no experience always chime in as experts.

>>7625677
Working on a manga is very different from drawing coomer slop. If the guy on the right tried making an actual manga his art would decrease in quality too. They're completely different things. One focus only on being appealing, the other needs to think about scene continuity, how the character stands on the space they are in, you need to make room for speech bubbles, you are limited by the size of your page... Even the people on /mg/ or /fag/ would probably suffer when trying to make a manga.

>>7626362
I like how you can't simply define it yourself but have to link texts of other people instead while throwing up word salads. Can you even draw in an authentic Japanese style yourself?

the same reason that every single thing in life has a perpetual stream of beginners and select group of people that stick with it.

>>7626369
My earlier comment applies here. For me it's the latter.
>So either you don't know
>or are withholding information and not sharing it with the community.

>>7626362
>Continuum fallacy.
That's not the continuum fallacy, the continuum fallacy would be to say there's no defined border between anime art and not anime art.
>Anime would be like a game here, not a class of things like "games"
>Anime is just: big eyes, colorful backgrounds, colorful hair. If you're saying anime is just this then it's only proof that you cannot draw it, not proof that it is actually reducible to a "family".
No, I am saying its a family thing because you have things like Berserk, Ghost in the Shell 2, The Animatrix, Redline... classic gekiga (ie Lone Wolf and Cub, Golgo13) as well. Lots of examples. But then you also have the more crazy things on the other end like Puni Puni Poemi, Tekyuu, Slayers, Daicon animations, and Muv-Luv.
These are all anime, through family resemblance.

>>7626360
Hi TC anon

>>7626363
Exactly. It's incredible weird to pull that shit when it comes to a medium that's visual too.
>>7626377
Okay dunning kruger. It's people like you why this board is so shit most the time. And before you cry about because hostility, that's a result of you acting holier than though about a topic which of course you're gonna get called out on

>>7626381
>These are all anime, through family resemblance
What are the tangible properties of those common traits and techniques to produce them such that they read as part of the family? That would define the family. Right now you aren't going deep.

>>7626384
But Dunning-Kruger refers to a false elevated sense of ability? I merely state that I have a piece of knowledge without saying anything about my level of ability.
I have already accepted all hostility from the cartoon crowd. It's necessary for my mission.

>>7626398
>The Dunning-Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which people wrongly overestimate their knowledge or ability in a specific area.
>knowledge

> It's necessary for my mission.
Yeah, sounding exactly like an /x/ schizo lol

>>7626363
It’s a problem of the medium, not mine. I go to the fundamental definition to avoid being overly verbose and to stay within the character limits [and honestly, I’m not in the mood to split my text into multiple responses]. A more technical answer would be: non-arbitrary entropic fluctuations in a closed visual system. Or simpler: a natural 'flow' between forms that appeal to realism and symbolism simultaneously. You can see this in the minimalist faces [neoteny] and relatively complex anatomy of the anime-pattern. This tension between approaches is the key to anime’s appeal.

>>7626381
>Hi TC anon
Hi :P [ Outside of my technical/weird threads, I'm actually pretty chill ]

>>7626401
>overestimate
It's a scale. I'm not placing myself on a scale. I am claiming that I know something you don't and have proven it with specifically crafted Socratic-style questions. Anyone in the know would be able to see that I know the info from my line of questioning, but the ignorant won't gain access to the info if they don't think hard about the question.
This thread might very well be one of the factors that leads to the eventual downfall of cartoons.

>>7626406
>non-arbitrary entropic fluctuations in a closed visual system. Or simpler: a natural 'flow' between forms that appeal to realism and symbolism simultaneously.
>minimalist faces [neoteny]
>relatively complex anatomy of the anime-pattern
Means nothing specific. ChatGPT level stuff.

>>7626410
Since you mention chat gpt... how about using it to 'decipher' my message? My formal approach to art [without strong semantic overflow] uses a lot of technical jargon.

>>7626422
Decipher implies some meaning that's not apparent on the surface. Your words don't map onto any deeper technical concepts, it's all surface tier fluff. I could take an Indian animator working in the native style of his country, give him chatGPT and have him produce the same 'insight'.

>>7626393
The very point is that a word like "anime" is best read from an anti-essentialist viewpoint, you are insisting on essentialism.
I have thoroughly explained my part, you are free to reread it until it makes sense to you - there is nothing hidden here. If however you wish to explain yourself plainly, you can do so. Then we may compare the ideas and see which parses better.

>>7626434
> best read from an anti-essentialist viewpoint
That's just begging the question and an appeal to incredulity. And a thorough explanation of a shallow concept is still shallow at its core.
I'm in a battle. What incentive can you give me to leak info?

>>7626429
>"I don’t understand such concepts, so I assume they have no meaning"

My love for anime girls is pure and I won't let anybody get in the way

>>7626444
It's not an appeal to incredulity, it's humble statement that I have no more to add, and am open to being corrected with better information.
>a thorough explanation of a shallow concept
I suppose at its core "anime art" is a rather shallow concept, sure. It's - unlike a lot of things - an actual social convention that only exists because people generally agree, in the sense they "know it when they see it". That's why there is always such debate about what is and is not anime. We presume the case that anime and cartoons are different in ways that are meaningful, and that makes them different. Where the line falls varies subjectively, but we can (usually) agree there are lines to divide "representational, but stylized artwork". Some people of course might reject this in favor of only stricter or broader terms, but that's a tangent.

>>7626447
>anime faces, funny circle
>anime body, Michelangelo's David
>funny meme, please laugh
This is what I saw recently on twitter or even here. You just dressed a meme in GPT language. Is it saying something about reality? It's hinting at something. But is it also incredibly surface level? Yes.

>>7626465
>anime faces, funny circle
>anime body, Michelangelo's David
That's what gabe is trying draw.
>The thread comes around full circle.

>>7626460
>an actual social convention that only exists because people generally agree
Just like gender, amirite? If your view of an entire art form (that you cannot draw or grasp) reduces to mental illness tumblr relativism then is it really an informed and respectful view of the craft? Say it's just socially engineered and there is no essential properties, but no amount of social engineering would make most /ic/ drawings anime. They would never read as the result of the same technique of creating 2D drawings as the examples of anime you listed. Simply because they lack certain physical, tangible properties on the paper/screen causing the image to not read as anime.
>That's why there is always such debate about what is and is not anime.
Debates between redditors are of no importance to a true intellectual.

>>7626472
>Just like gender, amirite?
Nope, I simply said "unlike most things". There are some things that are subjective as they are complete human inventions, some things that are derived from observation, and some things that are derived from logic and reason.
>it's just socially engineered
Never said that. Although now that you mention it, some of it might have been, partly, to have a specific tagline for marketing purposes when imported back in the day. Either way, now it's moreso just what people observe. Like how certain colors didn't "exist" as separate concepts in certain languages until relatively recently.
>but no amount of social engineering would make most /ic/ drawings anime
Things shift over time, so I'm not exactly sure about that. You could find images from lesser-known jp anime artist and ask what people think of "your" anime art, and you might get people telling you it's not anime.

>>7626491
>marketing purposes when imported
Ah yes, marketing in the west is surely relevant to what is and isn't anime. The western man has been so socially engineered he literally cannot conceive of things having actual properties instead of being social engineering. The nominalist cancer goes deep.

>you might get people telling you
See the above remark about redditors. I hope my posts can at least incite you to think harder about the key question I raised before. As a philosopher and teacher of life once said, one must never stop thinking. There is a very clear empirical, logic and reason based answer. I believe I have left enough breadcrumbs for you to reach the truth.

>>7626491
>Things shift over time, so I'm not exactly sure about that.
cont.

Just like my gender or math, amirite? If tomorrow most people agree I'm female or 2+2=5, well then it must be so, okay reddit?!

>>7626516
>Ah yes, marketing in the west is surely relevant to what is and isn't anime.
It's relevant to how a lot of people perceive things, yes. Artificial flavors taste the way they do in part because of them being labelled as such.
>he literally cannot conceive of things having actual properties
Some things do. Wood has actual properties, and can be defined. Oxygen. And so on. And some are logically-derived, such as math or things like rights. But other things are so far removed from anything empiric or logical that they effectively do not exist without the concept being in our heads, and the language to describe and communicate such a concept is messy due to this origin.

>If tomorrow most people agree I'm female or 2+2=5
If they decided that the words "male" and "female" flipped, it would be a logistical nightmare but there would effectively be no real change. The signifier is not the signified, and the signified has some objective properties. If 2+2=5 still parsed into valid math otherwise, then it would be valid - again, a logistical nightmare, but valid - if say the symbols that signified 5 and 4 were swapped. The meaning doesn't change just because it's translated.

Another example of the family resemblance would be the funny memes about what constitutes a sandwich, or how the culinary definition of "berries" excludes tomatoes and watermelons while the botanical definition includes those and excludes raspberries.

>>7626535
>But other things are so far removed from anything empiric or logical
Nothing to do with anime. Learn to draw anime.

>>7626546
You have put so many words into this thread while saying so little. The discussion even dragged TC anon out. Surely you would like to see more trve anime art made, as opposed to the works you have indicated are trash.
Please, grace us with your infinite wisdom: Tell us what makes anime, anime.

>>7625673 (OP)
Because when anyone gets remotely good they have no reason to post here anymore other than flexing, or the rare kind anon.
It's like asking why dating apps have no happy couples in them.

that shit is a permabeg fullness not progress

>>7626556
>Surely you would like to see more trve anime art made.
How do I know you're not part of the intelligence community of the cartoon side trying to gather info? You might as well hate anime since you don't speak too highly of it and don't see its unique objective values. I'm not convinced that laying it out in the open will lead to that goal so I will remain silent for now.

>(name) anon
Surely, as a student of Wittgenstein you must find this amusing?

>>7625673 (OP)
>How does 95% of /mmg/ manage to get easily mogged by niche NSFW artists when it comes to make manga-like artwork that actually looks professional?

So?

I love anime girls more than I love me mum and that's saying a lot

I love anime girls and will defend them from haters till my dying breath. I am an unabashed, true anime fan, die-hardest of the die-hard, and nothing will ever change that.

>>7625673 (OP)
source of op image? who's the artist

>>7626586
>How do I know you're not part of the intelligence community of the cartoon side trying to gather info?
>it's all us vs them
Not any of these anons but man some people are truly too far gone. Even soldiers in war would lend a hand to enemy soldiers, because doing so benefits them. You respect your fellow man and understand the concept of mutual benefit LESS than people who are otherwise actively trying to kill each other. You're literally more brainwashed than fucking soldiers. The internet is a terrifying void of humanity.

>>7625677
>Like, I'm not saying left looks bad or whatever but right is so obviously less wonky to the point it's baffling. And this was one of the better looking pages from the current thread being posted.

>>7625673 (OP)
But the reverse is true too, there are anons on /mmg/ that mog 95% of niche NSFW artists when it comes to making manga-like artwork that actually looks professional. At least one of them IS a professional making actual manga. Almost like viewing things like this is a completely pointless waste of neurons.

>>7626680
To a wounded soldier who's surrendering? Sure. But giving away classified research documents to enemy intel is treason. The cartoonists of /ic/ should be thankful we are humane to them.

It's truly a shame we can't easily communicate here due to the nature and culture of the platform, but the coded language is enough for anyone intelligent trying to understand it.

>>7626680
This guy always refuses to define his terms or show a single example of what he's talking about. Most importantly he has never posted his work so his opinion is worthless by default. Not worth anyone's time

>>7626782
This guy has never posted his work so his opinion is worthless by default.

the world we live in has a "if its not the best, its garbage" mentality for a lot of things, including art.

>>7625688

I miss the golden age of /ic/

>>7626835
I'm not the one claiming expertise on this subject, so there's no reason for me to post my work. Post your anime (whatever the fuck that means to you) or shut the fuck up, dumb nigger.

>>7626157
>If you think there is nothing unquestionable/fundamental/absolutely accurate that can be taught about anime art
nigga its cartoons for chink children

>>7625901
>shitposters bring in ad rev
no jannies here (and of course in general) are just garbage and should be beheaded

>>7627586
Please don't monkey's paw it. On other boards they delete half of the posts in some threads due to personal agendas, because the mods don't keep the jannies on a leash.

anime girls are my life and I won't let anybody smear them in any shape or form even if I have to use Chat GPT to make my case against y'all anime girl haters

>>7631425
hey that's a cool blatant nothing post to bump a thread off page 10 buddy but this shit is better off dead

>>7625673 (OP)
It is really weird seeing a friend's art show up in a 4chan thread of all things. Like he's really good and all but I didn't think he was prominent enough to even be brought up on here.

>>7626664
NoahDoesArt aka NDA

>>7625673 (OP)
speaking from my own experience,
NSFW forces me to confront how dogshit awkward and uncomfortable my drawings are, making it critically obvious how bad I am at things like anatomy, line quality, color, posing, really everything. But, confronting that also forces me to learn about and work on my weak areas, which has helped me get better. I started making a lot of improvements much faster after I started drawing nsfw. but that also was because I just started taking art more seriously in general, drawing much more frequently and taking time to do studies and being more deliberate about it.

>>7626712
>there are anons on /mmg/ that mog 95% of niche NSFW artists when it comes to making manga-like artwork that actually looks professional
Ok, I'll bite. Which ones look semi-professional?

>>7633244
This guy's the pro I was alluding to, and I've definitely seen better artists than this guy here.
https://warosu.org/ic/thread/7592735#p7596930
https://warosu.org/ic/thread/7312387#p7320015
https://warosu.org/ic/thread/7118628#p7122591
Is it incredible stuff? No, lol. But it's better than 95% of randos online.

>>7633863
So then it wasn't anonS with a plural "s" like in your post at >>7626712 and instead its just the one guy all along with regard to /mmg/?

>>7633905
That's one that immediately comes to mind that I can go find archive links to easily man. Not everyone has such easily searchable words in their posts.

>>7633863
Still not as good as NDA, I’m sorry

>>7633863
Brother, mmg has seen actual pro tier manga artists, yet you chose THAT to prove your point? Fucking hell your brain is coom fried

>>7634166
I was never trying to say he was. I was applying the same logic OP was: there's random guys who mog 95% of /mmg/ and there's people on /mmg/ that mog 95% of random guys. I'm not comparing the 5%ers on both sides.

>>7634187
Didn't I fucking say that in the post you're replying to...? And the actual pro is by default pro tier.

>>7626924
Same. This board used to be so good that even the /beg/ threads had me slinking off in shame and not daring to show my face here, but now I feel like I'm better than most of the trash here.

>>7634166
I'd say they're pretty much around the same general skill level, and if anything left is more stylistically appealing desu

>>7634523
>I'd say they're pretty much around the same general skill level, and if anything left is more stylistically appealing desu

>>7634427
Pyw

>>7634555
Anime girls are my life

I don't think /ic/ is that bad except holy fuck every single argument over anime/"weebshit" is completely worthless schizos arguing with each other. Fentanyl is less of waste of time than reading this slop.

>>7634523
Jesus Christ no

>>7634523
as boring as those manga pages are, I wouldn't really call these two things remotely similiar or attempting to do the same things.

Hell, why is NDA even being used as an example here? he's good, but this feels like comparing apples to oranges.

>>7634834
Because gabe keeps posting him

>>7634834
fr or comparing your mom to a whale. its just preference. people these days, fuck.

>>7634836
it's not Gabe. Gabe hasn't been on here in a good while.

>>7635806
hi gabe, 2 weeks is not a good while. you should also be embarrassed to shit on other artists when your comic looks like this

>>7635861
I'm not Gabe. I'm AppleHeck.

>>7634553
you could trace these perfectly with smooth vectors and it would look like shit. So why dont books ever teach the importance of line texture and soul? With a pencil you already have the soul built in when you draw a line but on digital you have to get the perfect settings or your art looks like this

>>7637227
Massive nodraw cope. Kagurabachi is drawn similarly to both Bleach and Naruto yet it's fully done digitally AFAIK

>>7637454
and how do I do this without drawing at a fuckhuge resolution....

>>7637464
Why NOT draw at fuckhuge resolution?
It's not like a bigger digital canvas costs more than a small one

>>7637484
its way more drawing

>>7637486
Just zoom out

>>7637464
You don't.
>>7637486
It sure is. A lot harder too. Drawing big is when you realize that drawing at low res was splashing around in the kiddie pool.

>>7638070
it's not harder it's literally just making your brushes bigger to fit with the canvas. Don't be so simple-minded.

>>7638389
It sounds really simple on paper yes, but drawing small feels like an absolute joke to me after drawing on huge canvases for a decade. There's more to it than just "brush small vs brush big".

>>7638392
I honestly don't think I notice a real difference unless I'm working at like pixel art sizes. (which I had to do alot for my previous jobs.)

The only difference is if the liquify brush starts shitting itself from being too big or not, really. Beyond that it's incredibly easy to just work larger and just understand that you don't have to actually go into minutia.

>>7638402
For context, I work almost entirely in lines.
For whatever reason, when I'm drawing small enough for pixels to be visible (think a ~1000x1000px canvas) I find the lines turn out much better with much much less effort. I find it noticably easier to make nice looking drawings quickly than on the 8600x6000px canvases I normally draw on.
Maybe you've had a different experience, but I can definitely say that for me drawing on a small canvas is easymode.

>>7638389
>it's literally just making your brushes bigger to fit with the canvas
ngl i find it pretty similar when i scale up the brush, but if i use a small brush it's way harder

>>7638405
Canvas size interaction with brush size depends on your tablet and software you are using so you guys will never agree since you're probably using different drawing programs and different digitizers.

>>7625884
>Just trace some pro work and watch the corrections come in from people I predicted would redline it.
are you that guy who traced over a stock photo so horribly you ruined all sense of depth and form from it and then used it to "prove" how redlines are bad because they arent photorealistic

>>7626472
>no importance to a true intellectual.
nigger you are using a thesaurus to argue about asiatic pornographic illustrations of little girls

>>7625673 (OP)

>shaming other artists for not being as good as his favorite gooner bait

no such thing as talent, friend, just experience. unless you're one of the elite porno artists yourself i suggest you quiet down.