I saw comments arguing about whether it's 900 or 1250

tarkov says it's 1000 rpm

Probably erratic, down to the springs and powder loads on of each gun and mag.

>>63981539 (OP)
I don't know, can't count that fast.

>>63981539 (OP)
it's a bullet hose, and x25 is expensive.

>>63981539 (OP)
ask in QTDDTOT

>>63981685
If people on the open board are left just guessing at the answer, what makes you think people in the questions ghetto would be likely to know?

>>63981539 (OP)
judging by the sound in comparison to other guns, I'd say about 1100 for the most part
and playing a game that has it wont give you an accurate feel for how fast it fires, because it is so ridiculously fast that every game dev universally has had to lower the speed to where it feels like at most 900

The Vietnamese K50M variant gets the cyclic rate down to about 900rpm by using some kind of squishy rubber buffer, apparently.

>>63981539 (OP)
>soviet WW2 war production QC
Realistically probably anywhere between 400 and 1300 depending on the loyality of glorious soviet worker on that day.

>>63982721
The PPSh-41 had genuine production problems, but assuming you had a set of drums matched to your gun, and your ammo hasn't been dug up out of an old mire or something, it should do exactly what it's expected to do.
Since those drums didn't interchange freely between individual guns, the smaller 35rd sticks was relied on more later, and generally they would work reliably in most guns, but 35rds is a bit little when you're looking at such a blistering bullethose, so that's not great.

The slightly later PPS-43 did not have cool drums, but it had a slow and steady rate of fire, a folding stock (90% copied from the German MP40), extremely consistent and reliable 35rd mags, and was a rather inexpensive, easy, and fast gun to put together. The PPS-43 was arguably the best subgun of WW2, for being able to match such good economy and ease of production with strong reliability.
Compare to say, the Sten, which was also cheap and quick to make, but uh, could have been a little better in some ways.

The design of the PPS-43 is particularly impressive for how Sudayev worked within the generally lower technological capabilities of wider Soviet Russia at the time. The sheet metal parts of the gun aren't really stampings as you would think for the Stg-44 or AKM, rather they're simpler cut out pressings shaped on mandrels, which was something Russian industry at the time could easily achieve consistently and reliably, and for less cost and time than the PPSh-41.
It's like the Eastern counterpart to the American Greasegun.

>>63982698
i don't think thats the cause, the ppsh had a buffer pad from the beginning
its more likely that they just increased the bolt travel length or made the bolt heavier

>>63981539 (OP)
I dont have too much full auto experience, but ive fired ppsh’s, owens, thompsons, mat49s, mp5s, and mac-10/11s before. Im pretty sure the th e ppsh’s varied. I fired one in idaho im sure had a higher rpm than one i got to try in wisconsin. I cant remember which was which but im pretty sure one was made in 1944 and the other 1945.

>>63982985
>The PPS-43 was arguably the best subgun of WW2
No. It's a decent gun but not that nice to shoot compared to others. Grease gun has worse mags but it's much more steady and controllable. Among the cheap stamped WW2 SMGs Beretta M38 is the best overall and has everything. There are cool machined SMGs out there too like Suomi and Kiraly but it's more about the cool features and not economy or mass production of the stamped guns.
>The design of the PPS-43 is particularly impressive for how Sudayev worked within the generally lower technological capabilities of wider Soviet Russia at the time
Sudayev only actually worked on the magazine, the rest of the gun was designed by other guy named Bezruchko-Vysotsky but becaue he came from old russian nobility he got shelved and Sudaev got all the credit. Wonders of soviet plagiarism of stuff both foreign and domestic.

>>63983017
It's what I've been told by Viets who have had a chance to shoot the things, that they put in some kind replacement rubber foam buffer which the bolt squishes, and this is probably why you can frequently find the cyclic rate of the gun described as between 700rpm to 900rpm, much lower than the original Sphagin.

They say you can also take that buffer out and get the much higher rate of fire, which they say is cool, but not as practical because its harder to control (mind, it removes the brake that was part of the shroud), heats up quicker, and runs out quicker. They still have some of the old 71rd drums in inventory, so if you have one which fits your K50M and you have the stock extended, you can use those too, though I don't think this was ever done in practice by Vietcong or NVAs, as the entire point of the K50M was to be a shorter and less bulky gun.

The K50M was also never a mass production item in the conventional sense, rather it was a program for workshops and gunsmiths in North Vietnam to convert Chinese Type 50s which they had gotten as military aid. Most of them look and handle the same, but apparently they do occasionally vary in construction and fine details, quality of conversion can also vary apparently.
Hell, best I know, that new buffer may not even have been standard to the pattern, rather something which some of the converters did.

There's not a ton of documentation or pictures of these online, nor much footage or accounts of how it handles and shoots, but they apparently were fairly common in some areas of the country during the war.
This article has an interesting account from an American marine who faced some in combat:
https://www.americanrifleman.org/content/the-vietnamese-k-50m-submachine-gun/

>>63983095
>It's a decent gun but not that nice to shoot compared to others
Yeah, but it works reliably, has a steady and controllable cyclic rate, and it folds.

>Among the cheap stamped WW2 SMGs Beretta M38 is the best overall and has everything
That's probably true actually, and it still retains a full wooden rifle stock.

>the gun was designed by other guy named Bezruchko-Vysotsky but becaue he came from old russian nobility he got shelved and Sudaev got all the credit
Ah. That's not very surprising for Communist Russia actually. Still, Sudayev deserves props for designing a very good magazine.

>>63982985
The design is great, I'm thinking more QC issues like burrs on recievers reducing rate of fire.

>>63981539 (OP)
Are you sure they aren't confusing rpm with jams per minute?

>>63983114
>but not as practical because its harder to control
i wonder how true that really is though
i always hear firing rates after a certain point to only make it more accurate because you stop being able to discern the recoil of each individual bullet and you can more steadily keep the gun pointed in a certain direction
the real concern in my opinion is that those box mags go empty in like 4 seconds

>>63983154
>in like 4 seconds
that's generous, PPSh with its stick mag bottomed out in just over 2

>>63983154
>>63983019(me)
Ive found that the sweet spots in recoil are below 650rpm-ish and over 1000. Over 1000 and its more like spraying a hose with the nozzle tightened. Low recoils are slow and steady. The inbetween rpms are whats bouncy and more chaotic ime

>>63983175
>low recoils
Low rpms*

>>63983154
>i always hear firing rates after a certain point to only make it more accurate because you stop being able to discern the recoil of each individual bullet and you can more steadily keep the gun pointed in a certain direction
In some circumstances, but A), there a multitude of factors to how a gun recoils exactly and how you handle it, and B), extremely few guns are able to achieve a cyclic rate high enough that you can really make any real use out of that phenomenon (like the hyperbursts on the G11 and AN94).
You then also have the inherent reduction in accuracy of an open-bolt action, the mechanical accuracy of the design AND individual gun in question.

Something like the Swedish K loaded with regular commercial 9mm ball is going to recoil way less than a Schnellfeuer, which cycles almost twice as fast. A Micro Uzi cycles so insanely fast that it's a bit difficult to really use, at something like 1800rpm.

>>63983211
And i found mini uzis way easier to shoot than Swedish k’s. I dont know how those old sweede boomers shoot clovers with their pissin hot m28 9mm. Most mini uzis fire from the closed bolt and I find open bolt smgs the most difficult guns to shoot well. RPM is probably as important in controllability as the mechanical operation and there is also some user preference. People dickride mp5s and id rather shoot a bt mp9

>>63981539 (OP)
I fear you won't find any worthwhile sources to put that debate to rest.
As an example: Chris Mcnab repeatedly mentions a cyclic rate of 900rds/min for the PPSH-41 but in the same book, pic related, also somehwat contradicts himself.
>There was nothing to choose between the weapons in terms of rates of fire (c. 900rds/min), and all performed well when delivering intense automatic fire. Yet where the Shpagin design set itself apart was in terms of manufacture, reliability and maintenance.
>The barrel was chrome lined, to make it more resistant to wear – a necessity considering the PPSh-41’s scorching rate of fire (900rds/min).
>At this point the bolt stopped in an open position; with its firing rate of c. 1,000rds/min, the PPSh-41 was necessarily an open-bolt weapon,

No one seems to actually address the fact that stated numbers wildly differ or why.

>>63983265
Mini Uzi and Micro Uzi are two different guns, just for clarification.

>>63983312
Shit i just got back from a bender weekend with the boys, never shot the micro before, brain is still recovering

>>63983265
That'd be the m/39B, which are loaded a lot hotter (and have hardened steel projectiles), I think they actually bottom out the bolt in the m/45 Carl Gustaf, so they'd recoil more.
The hotter load and hard projectile increase chamber pressure a lot, so they are known to explode a number of old 9mm pistols.

>>63981539 (OP)
Could have varied from gun to gun. PPSh-41s were made with the bare minimum QC and nobody is going to care if an SMG shoots a little faster or slower.

>>63983355
Yeah thats the stuff, thanks anon

>>63983372
> nobody is going to care if an SMG shoots a little faster or slower.
i do

>>63983095
i dont like the beretta
don't get why it is hailed so much
is it because of contrarianism or because of companies like Eugen?
i especially dislike its magazines and the way they are inserted on the early models, makes me physcially cringe

>>63983129
is better but it appears afaik this is a late war variant /44 from when they were under german control (yes, the filename says 42 but i don't trust that; Ian shows a "42" version that looks like this but it also has german markings)

also either way it has V-notch and no pistol grip
and was it even that cheap?

>>63983466
>don't get why it is hailed so much
Sturdy and dependable magazines, easy and smooth to shoot.

>>63981539 (OP)
Look at this and tell me that you expect something like this to have stable and constant fire rate with every gun made. If you want to make your ppsh slower just apply more cosmoline around the bolt, it moves slower through all that sticky shit.

>>63983095
>Beretta M38
Isn't it mostly machined despite being a tube gun? I know they were produced in pretty large numbers but they were nowhere as cheap as Grease Guns etc.

>>63983017
>ppsh had a buffer pad from the beginning
Yeah, but made of stiff Pertinax (cloth-filled phenolic resin) that does not spring, it's just there to take the beating from bolt in lieu of the receiver end and slowly wears off/disintegrates with firing. Sometimes it got replaced with stacked leather or carved hardwood in the field, modern replacements are usualy polyamide.
Squishy rubber one might work just as anon suggested, although I'm doubtful if it worked so well to cut the ROF down by 400 rpm.

>>63982985
>The PPS-43 had a folding stock
Not very good one, though. Don't get me wrong, it's a practical addition and makes the whole gun so much more convenient to have on you, but as the buttplate does not snap in place it's quite obnoxious to us in the field.

>>63984137
>Isn't it mostly machined despite being a tube gun?
Early ones are machined, but I'm pretty sure they began doing stamped tubes as they economized it. Probably along the same time they stopped putting shrouds on them.

>Not very good one, though.
Well, hey, it's copied from the MP40s stock, which in itself isn't that good. It looks cool and it's really compact, but they always wear and get loose and rattly with time. It's also way worse on the various AKs which would be built with the same kind of stock, they loosen up faster and you really feel the 7.62x39mm rattle your teeth with that cheekweld.

I'm assuming the stock on the Yugo M56 is about as rough as on the MP40 and PPS43.

>>63983606
also fairly light compared to competition, the dual triggers are cool.

>>63984137
the 1938 one was machined, the 1942 one was stamped. the latter was also significantly lighter and had fluted barrel.

>>63983355
And fudds claim that there are no SMG loads.

>>63985561
Usually when people say that, it's about a specific cartridge. For 9mm Parabellum, there's a fucking thousand different loadings for the cartridge dating back a century, some commercial, some military.

m/39B isn't just a hot load though, many subgun loads are just a +P or +P+ load, maybe or maybe not with a mild steel core inside the lead bullet, but this one's a hardened steel bullet with a lead core.
Thus, the projectile is murder on a lot of pistol's bores, and like said before the increased resistance from trying to squeeze that fucker down there makes pressures higher, so it's rough on locked breech pistols (old open-bolt subguns are almost always just blowback, so the pressure can always just move the bolt).
Supposedly the polygonal bores on Glock pistols make for less friction and resistance when shooting that stuff, hence why they manage to tolerate m/39B better than many other pistols.

>>63984276
>hey always wear and get loose
The Sudayev stock sucks even when new, because the buttplate keeps rotating out of position all the time, so when you try shouldering it, you have to stop, adjust the buttplate and then you can go on, which is turbo annoying.

>>63983788
>Begins battle at 950 rpm
>Fire rate accelerates as the cosmoline wears off
>Ends battle at 1200 rpm.
Great Success!

>>63981685
Fuck
Ya mudda

>>63983788
Yes. Also cosmoline is only for long term storage, you don't want it in a gun in use.

>>63987605
Getting rid of that sticky shit was hilarious, combination of various industrial solvents was unsuccesfull. I used heat gun to make all the metal parts hot as hell, lot of the cosmoline just dripped out and after that I just submerged those parts in the solvent. It started boiling agresivelly, immediatelly turning dark brown and highly flammable vapors were spreading everywhere. It was wild. Now, when I'm moving the bolt back and forth by hand, it doesn't feel like I'm forcing it through mud.

>>63988006
>I used heat gun to make all the metal parts hot as hell
>It started boiling agresivelly, immediatelly turning dark brown and highly flammable vapors were spreading everywhere.
>it doesn't feel like I'm forcing it through mud.
It's almost as if you're supposed to set the thing on fire to clean it. Very Soviet.

>>63988006
Guess I was lucky, just stripped that motherfucker down, bathed it in 95 octane gasoline and went down on it with a brush, rinsing it often with said gasoline. My gun is an open bolt semi conversion, though, so it was probably cleaned with some industrial shit before just enough to perform surgery on it.

The fun part was doing it in my basement during a global Facebook outage. Fumes gave me tingles but were probably nowhere as funky as previous anons' Baked PPSh Hot Tub Spicy Solvent Mix Extravaganza.

>>63983017
>increased the bolt travel length
I seriously doubts the Viets redesigned anything with the K-50, they just took a chink PPSh and chopped some parts down to give it a MAT-49 form factor. Yugos, on the other hand, did that with the M56 as seen here >>63984276 - they started with MP-40, Sudayev and maybe Shpagin and came out with a tube gun with bakelite lower receiver and underfolding stock kinda like the MP-40 with a bolt travel that would make Jim Sullivan proud, feeding from a Sudayev mag ripoff with fire selector and cocking handle safety like the PPSh has, but done differently, with a pistol grip that has a very Madsenic shape... Their previous SMG was a Shpagin/Beretta crossbreed BTW.

>>63981539 (OP)
the PPSH was the biggest hunk of shit I've ever shot. Rented it at a range and I hated the thing. Recoiled way more than an overweight 12 lb pistol caliber thing should because of the bonkers rate of fire and there's no damn good spot to hold it. the fucking drum kept jamming. fuck rusnigs and fuck video games for portraying this thing as good

>>63981539 (OP)
Realistically 900 but theoretically in perfect operation it could be 1250. You have to remember a lot of rpm is useless as a metric on non belt fed guns with only basically air cooling.

>>63981617
It costs the same as cheap rifle rounds but it is still comparable to 5.7, it's not that bad.

>>63991039
>the fucking drum kept jamming
They didn't have a drum which matched the gun. That's one of the problems with the gun and its manufacture, magwells and drums were both inconsistent so you needed to make sure to test out and then pair sets of drums for each gun.

Now, if you did that, they would work very well, but it's obviously really shitty to need to do that.

>>63991212
I'm confident that you could load 7.62mm Tokarev to be a much stronger performer than 5.7mm, it's just that nobody does this because 7.62mm Tokarev is mostly an abandoned cartridge.

>>63991317
7,62 Tok should come back as a pistol and PCC cartridge. It has so much potential. All those different bullet types and loads.

>>63991333
I agree, it's like 5.7mm but good.
You're pretty capped at practical velocities for a service pistol cartridge anyway, so 7.62mm gives you more projectile weight to work with to balance things out.
Picture something like a Glock 17, Beretta 92, FN FNX, or CZ75, but chambered for 7.62mm Tokarev, loaded with solid copper hollowpoints and with 17, 18, and 19 round magazines.

For carbines, picture something like this 7.62mm AR15 carbine using PPS43 magazines, or something "T" shaped like an Uzi or Sa.23, but maybe with a delayed action, rail for an optic, and free-floated barrel.
Mind, short guns will no longer be taxed by January, and because of that may very well stand a chance of being taken off the NFA entirely, so the right kind of carbine could soon be sold with the proper barrel, stock, and any foregrip you want, and it would be like any other rifle.

>>63991039
>Rented it at a range
Were you expecting properly hand fitted drum mag?

>>63991406
I liked my m57 the same way i like my ruger 57. They're just speedy boys. I'd love a pistol that isn't designed like industrial equipment chambered in 762 tok, but it just won't happen :(

>>63991317
Not quite load but you could use the case with a different bullet and achieve that. But that would basically be an entirely different bullet by that point.

>>63991333
I personally want it to come back and for psa to make it with 5.45. put 7.62tok in the akv.

>>63991647
You mean reinvent it for .308 caliber projectiles or something?

>>63991957
.308 and .309 are fine in that bore but hypothetically running non round nose or non flat nose could change the dynamics to be a bit more comparable to 5.7.

>>63991990
Like the Chinese did?

>>63981539 (OP)
Are they even consistently made given all the Soviet workshops that made them?

>>63992041
NTA but the chinese type 64 cartridge is both longer than spec (37mm vs 35.2mm) and a 120gr fat boi. It's hard to compare it's performance to other 7.62x25 loads, let alone other PDW cartridges.

>>63991406
>>63991333
I'm a fag for 7.62x25 myself.
Is there any sort of modern application for a weapon like that? I know everyone shits all over SMGs now but I can't help but feel like we're insisting on rifles for everything even when we don't need to.

>>63995012
most of the soldiers we fight in wars dont have armor or anything and theres a lot of urban combat, 5.56 is unnecessary for that but tokarev ammo would be perfect
also i kinda wish smgs could make a comeback as a suppressive weapon, you can carry so much ammo for it and not break your back under the weight, the only limiting factor is the range

>>63995285

>>63995285
>>63995305
We need to RETVRN

>>63995285
>5.56 is unnecessary for that
I don't buy into that at all, 5.56mm has more than twice the effective range for what's still zero recoil and comparable weight per cartridge, it's an ideal cartridge for an infantry rifle because it's got all the range and power you need.

You should play into the strengths of what the 7.62mm Tokarev can be instead, which is a really compact automatic weapon in ways a 5.56mm could never be. You can make a 7.62mm Tokarev cartridge subgun which is more compact than any 5.56mm bullpup.

>>63996008
That is exactly why I want someone to try. I would have thought the serbs, czech, or chinese would have came back to it and redesigned for a modern compact PDW.

>>63996008
well, dont forget the volume of space 5.56 takes up
even if it doesnt weigh that much dont forget that you can probably carry two 36 round ppsh mags for every one 30 round ar mag, or maybe like 3 for every 2
>being compact
another good point
something i'll say though is that the nice thing about larger smg designs is the very low recoil, they'll be more accurate in full auto than an AR

>>63996111
Plus that sexy flat Tokarev trajectory

>>63983355
>, which are loaded a lot hotter
Officially they're loaded the same as the regular m/39, the difference is the bullet.

>>63981539 (OP)
Heck of a shotgun

>>63981539 (OP)
Some ammunition was pissing hot, not subgun designed like the meme though

>>63995314
with a proper MG (like MG 34 / 42) this would have been pretty solid

but this way it seems like it is pretty lacking in anything but short-range surprise attacks or forest / urban fighting
also the ammo drain must have been huge

>>64003299
thinking about it you also lack the ability to use rifle greandes with this "build"

>>63999470
72 posts before this was posted.
/k/ is dead.