Thread 64124732

Could Afghanistan have been won with new technology? I think so. I reckon an FPV drone squad in every FOB and PB would be the hard counter to the IED problem. Suddenly you can "patrol" day and night with drones and if you see some cunt digging in an IED the response can be instantantaneous.
That and more dogs I reckon. I was shocked to find out that for a long time, there were only 4 bomb sniffing dogs in Helmand. And not more than another 10 in the whole country. This in a country that was conservatively estimated to have 10,000 IEDs buried in it's soil at one time. That's not enough dogs. You need trained bomb sniffing dogs organic to every platoon.
Once you can solve the IED problem you can stabilise and have the breathing space to begin rooting out the corrupt governors, drug barons, the police boy-rapers and all the other shit that Afghanistan had that could never be dealt with because we were fighting the insurgency full time.
The technology to win in Afghanistan was late by a decade and it's infuriating.

>>64124732 (OP)
I think you should start with changing the character of the Afghans themselves so their army doesn't dissolve on contact with the Taliban.

>>64124732 (OP)
>The technology to win in Afghanistan was late by a decade and it's infuriating.
The US already had drones to drop grenades and similar things but as usual they too retarded to allow new niches by their own initiative.

It could have been won with IDF tactics

You can not defeat an islamic civilization by even merely roughly following the rules of honorable warfare that christians and christian-derive-atheists hold themselves to. Their religion was literally purposefully formulated to withstand conventional warfare.

>>64124732 (OP)
Define "win" and ask youself if it could be done by force.
The biggest failure of Afghanistan was thinking desert tribes want parliamentary democracy and would accept a government installed by invaders as legitimate.
Sure we could have genocided them but what goal would that help us meet and would it be worth the international backlash?

>>64124732 (OP)
New combat tactics wouldn't make a difference they'd still just hide in Pakistan and wait for the US to leave.

>>64124811
Maybe now that Israel is normalizing genocide again the West, or at least the US, will also abandon nation building.

>>64124811
Their urban elites did though. All we needed to do was give their urbanites the tools to beat their hick cousins into line.

>>64124842
Israel isn't normalizing anything. What they are doing and support for them is unpopular with anyone but boomers.

>>64124842
What does genocide achieve?
In the case of Israel they want to annex the land and build greater Israel so genocide can be used to achieve political goals.
In the case of Afghanistan where the US just wanted revenge for 9/11 it would have been a lot smarter to not have any large scale war and just let the glowies and high speed guys take out everyone involved from Bin Laden to his Saudi sponsors.

>>64124842
>>64124868
First genocide in history where the population grew during it.

>>64124842
>>64124858
>>64124868
NOBODY WANTS TO TALK ABOUT FUCKING ISRAEL! GET OUT OF MY FUCKING THREAD YOU COMMIE FAGGOTS

>>64124884
OPs question is could increased lethality change the outcome in Afghanistan, the answer is only if you genocide.
This lead to people talking about an ongoing genocide.
Sorry if this triggers you.

>>64124732 (OP)
There wouldn't have even been an insurgency at all if the Taliban were brought to the table initially and helped to form the new government. Which is what the majority of CIA spooks and analysts on the ground recommend to Bush. You were never going to have a stable country without some negotiation or deal with the Taliban.

>>64124732 (OP)
>Taliban start whacking Americans with drones

I don't think this would have played out the way you thought.

>>64124811

The biggest lost opportunity was not letting the Afghans reinstate their constitutional monarchy, seeing as their former king was still alive, willing to accept being returned to the throne, and very popular among all ethnic groups.

No. Lack of wunderwaffes is not why the US keeps, and will keep, losing wars to vastly weaker foes.

>>64124915
they even had the opportunity to do this. very quickly after we invaded they more or less capitulated and agreed to most of our terms but like with Iraq making a failed state was the point because a low stakes forever war is a good way to shift money out of public coffers into private hands.
It was the same deal in Iraq, banning all of the baathists both ensured ISIS or something like it would emerge and deprived every government institution of the people trained to make them work.

>>64124732 (OP)
>Could Afghanistan have been won
No. No one has ever "won" in Afghanistan. Armies go there to flounder, attrite, and leave. It's been happening since Alexander led his armies to the Hindu Kush, it happened to the Guptas, the British, the Soviets, the Coalition. Afghanistan was, is, and always shall be, a desolate waste fit only for tribal nomads.

>>64124882
That was the holohoax

>>64124732 (OP)
To win you'll have to have an actual real goal beyond gracefully pulling out.

>>64124868
>What does genocide achieve?
If you succeed: Lebensraum and lasting peace with that particular belligerent.

>>64124915
>the Taliban were brought to the table initially and helped to form the new government.
"Taliban, welcome to the table. We want women to be able to vote, and you should recognize religious freedom, and we think you can help is with both. Your input is valuable to us."

>>64124732 (OP)
Afghanistan was unwinnable because of political rules placed on the army. "Civilians" could provide the Taliban with intel and you couldn't attack them. The Taliban fighters could just drop their guns and now you couldn't shoot them anymore.

If the army was allowed to kill all Taliban members and their families and supporters the war would be won within a year.

>>64124946
yes, good job showing us a battle where china and north korea lost against the US and south korea, because they intended to take the whole peninsula, failed, almost lost all of north korea, which was not the US goal, and then managed to entirely lose their army meant for invading taiwan including mao's heir in order scrape some land back, ultimately leaving north korea smaller than it started.

what does this have to do with the thread, exactly, namefag thirdieshill?

>>64124732 (OP)
We didn't need technology or wunder waffen.

All you needed to do, to earn 95% of the voting public was:
1. Make pedophilia an instant death penalty offense.
2. Make cultivating opium poppies a death penalty offense.

Guess who promised both of those ?

if we doubled the troop numbers and created a moderate islamist group to take over instead of the Ana we could have "won".

the truth is we did complete our objective in Afghanistan of removing al queda and osama bin laden. any desire to remove the taliban was pointless and dumb

>>64125178
You're missing the magic words, dipshit.
>"Here is briefcase of money."

The only way to win Afghanistan is to be as brutal and the Taliban. We were too nice to the population and they saw it as weakness and didn't respect us.

>>64125329
Worked so well for the Russians.

>>64124844
What do you think ANA was, Kabul fell exactly because westernized urbanites were in charge.
>but the west is too pure for corruption and these people were corrupt hence not westerners
Sigh, the class 1 residue people that compose western elites, "foxes", are by definition kin to use manipulation and diplomacy to get what they want, this is why the entirety of NATO pussy-footed to russians invading Ukraine and even as we speak still cling to the idea of "peace talks". What you need against the taliban is class 2 residue people, "lions", classic buorgeousie or even designated nobility people who would have no problem with the concept of physical violence. The project was doomed from the start since we were on the high of "The End of History" and the apparent absolute victory of contemporary managerial elites.
By thw way, Trump is a clear example of a class 1 residue pretending to be class 2 residue.

>>64125322
Some people just want to see the world burn.

>>64125335
Where Russians doing public beats and executions?

>>64125371
I don't know what that classification system is or where you got it from, but does this guy seem like a "class 1 residue" (lol wtf) to you?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdul_Raziq_Achakzai

>>64125409
Yes

>>64125442
Can I see?

>>64124732 (OP)
Afghanistan (and Vietnam, for that matter) wasn't lost for lack of technology; but for lack of will to fight

>>64125445
How much more of a public execution do you need than the army rolling into a village and killing everyone they see? Or obliterating villages with artillery?

>>64125371
Should've put Gen. Abdul Rashid Dostum and the Halfghans in charge. He would've known what to do, but the State Department ~didn't like that~ because someone said he suffocated Taliban prisoners to death inside shipping containers. But I dunno, maybe they were already dead like that? He was qualified. This man received an Order of the Red Banner:
https://youtu.be/EKygnmlmtKY

>>64125445
If you find some old videos sure. If you didn't know when the Russians invaded Afghanistan their strategy was pretty much kill all ruraltards.
For the over 20 years America was involved in Afghanistan they caused under 50,000 civilian casualties. For the single decade the Soviets were in Afghanistan they caused 1.5million-2million civilians casualties.

>>64125467
>>64125488
So....no?

>>64124754
This, if their tactics are to keep dying till you get tired just don't get tired and keep slaughtering them

>>64125178
Just give them the same deal Saudi Arabia got.

U sell oil U receive dollars and annual vouchers for Americans you can body bag.

>>64125492
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atrocity_crimes_in_the_Soviet%E2%80%93Afghan_War#CITEREFJoes2010
>if there are no pictures it never happened
Dumb fuck

>>64125534
You keep pointing to things I'm not asking for. Public torture and execution as in every in town is gathered to watch someone get punished.

>>64125680
>>64125492
DING DING DING WE GOT A RETARD HERE

>>64125753
I accept your surrender.

>>64124742
Taliban can't exist if you kill them all and all of their male children so there can be no future taliban.

>>64125814
you are the one who conceded thoughbeit.

>>64124732 (OP)
Afghanistan could've been won easily you were all just pussies. Nuke their capital, build a few concentration camps, start exterminating.

Germany killed 6 million jews, I assume the USA would be able to scale that to roughly 45 million towelheads.

You lost because you wanted to spread democracy when you could have removed them instead.

>>64125202
>moderate islamist group

>>64124732 (OP)
Who the fuck puts a mine roller on a humvee?

>>64124938
Enlighten us then anon.

>>64125814
NTA but you are an idiot.

>>64125880
...but not as bad as this fucking retard, who has evidently never picked up a book in his entire adult life, assuming he isn't an edgy 13-year-old, which is a big 'if'

>>64125954
my cousin

>>64125961
Tell him to stop bro.

>>64124732 (OP)
Lol no, the US government was fucking clueless about nearly everything they did. The taliban was outgunned the entire time and still won. Read The Afghanistan Papers if you want to see just how badly they fucked everything up.

>>64125880
>Nuke their capital
They took control of the capital in a few months, USA should've nuked Pakistan for harboring Taliban fighters.

>>64124732 (OP)
No because the failure had literally nothing to do with your ability to bomb or shoot people. You could have instant death flying gamma ray laser robots and it would have made literally ZERO difference in the outcome.
The loss was entirely political because you cannot build a nation out of people that don't like you and don't share your values and don't believe in the idea of a nation.

Step 1 of 'winning' Afghanistan would have been taking children away from their parents and having them raised and educated to believe in ideas completely different from what their parents believed. Rinse and repeat for 50 years until the original ideas popular in the region are mostly gone.

Yes, this would have been extremely controversial, difficult, questionably ethical, and expensive. That is why nation building out of dysfunctional peoples is a bad idea to begin with.

>>64124732 (OP)
Nukes and beheadings aren’t new

Squad level FPVs are a much better response the the 1200 meter PKM harassing fire problem than the turbo retard rifle the army adopted. That doesn't fix the societal problems that lead to the failure, but it does actually solve the tactical problem far better than the way we're trying to solve it now.

>>64125178
>We want women to be able to vote, and you should recognize religious freedom, and we think you can help is with both
I don't give a fuck what those savages want to do in their own home as long as they don't provide a haven for people that give a fuck what I'm doing in mine.

no. Afghanistan could have been won with 1970s technology if the US hadn't given up and left.

The bigger issue is A) Winning would take 30 years of low level troop deployment and technical/air support for the Afghan Army (there were only a few thousand US troops in Afghanistan in 2022)
B) The US government never actually cared about the NATO mission aside form finding Osama (who was in fucking Pakistan) its just no one wanted to be the one to have egg on their face until the senility took hold in the presidency.
C No one ever fucking learns in the Pentagon, they recreated their own failures in South Vietnam 1 to 1 again despite having allegedly learned from Vietnam.

>>64124732 (OP)
Definitely "winning"

>>64126160
>I don't give a fuck what those savages want to do in their own home as long as they don't provide a haven for people that give a fuck what I'm doing in mine.
Oddly enough that was Joe Biden's complete position right back to when he was VP. He was constantly advising Obama to draw down the troops and shift the mission from counter-insurgency to counter-terrorism and focus on killing Al Qaeda and bin Laden.
Source: The Operators, Michael Hastings

>>64124754
>IDF tactics
you mean hebrews colonizing Palestine, 7 mllion jews always at alert keeping the arabs in check
meanwhile americans have no desire to colonize Afghanistan they just wanted to install a puppet regime but doing so requires keeping 100K US troops over there all the time and that's something everyone got tired of

also IDF are not fighting someone of Taliban calibre, if Palestinian had their own version of Taliban (not the gay resistance shit of Hamas) they would blow up Israeli civilians on daily basis causing revese Aliyah and with decreasing jewish population Israel would fumble quickly

>>64124754
IDF tactics suck. You want Zimbabwe tactics where you seize control of all the necessities (food, water, shelter) so if the enemy wants to not die they have to surrender.

>>64124742
>changing the character of the Afghans
We were there for 20 years. That's enough time to raise a new generation with desirable qualities. And by God did we try do do that. The fact that it didn't work shows that these people are beyond help. They'll live in their mudhuts until the sun cooks the earth.

>>64124844
>Their urban elites did though. All we needed to do was give their urbanites the tools to beat their hick cousins into line.
We already gave the Afghan National Army high tech tools that they could have theoretically used to beat their hick cousins. What happened in practice is the soldiers who were supposed to use the gear were often ghosts who only existed on paper, and the high tech just got sold to the Taliban. I don't see how FPV drones would have fixed that.

It's important to understand that the biggest problem is that the Afghan National Government suffered horribly from Russia style corruption. Only without access to mountains of Soviet era heavy stores or the institutional knowledge of how to wrangle hordes of demoralized peasants into performing human wave assaults. This isn't a problem that you can resolve long term with handing over more advanced weapons.

>>64124754
The IDF has failed against every insurgency they've fought for the last 50 years, how the fuck would they succeed against the Taliban?

>>64124946
Why doesnt this webm go to the end of the korean war? Or include fighting numbers, casualties or damage?

>>64124732 (OP)
>The Afghan National Army Commandos (formerly ANA Commando Brigade;[5] ANA Commando Battalion and Afghan National Army Commando Corps[4]) was a commando (special operations capable) force of the Afghan National Army.
>During the Taliban insurgency, the commandos comprised 7% of the Afghan National Security Forces but conducted 70% to 80% of the fighting.[6]
You'd need more of the Afghans to be like these guys first and foremost but nope they're fucked up in so many ways. Pakistan didn't help either with their regional ambitions either.

>>64125880
You do know america took over the country in just a few months and the rest of the 20 years was an occupation fighting against muslim and arabic culture trying to instill western values and fighting an insurgency at the same time right?

>>64124732 (OP)
The only thing that could have made the US win Afghanistan is the discovery of an extremely lucrative resource deposit there. Without that, there isn't any real reason to occupy the place.

>>64124732 (OP)
nah

>>64124732 (OP)
Afghanistan was never meant to be "won". It was meant to be a Zone of Instability where politicians could funnel billions of taxpayer dollars through NGO's into the region and then back into their own pockets through fences and creative accounting. For the military industrial complex to have a live-fire test area for new products, so the manufacturers and R&D labs have guaranteed income for decades. It also provides an external threat for politicians to use to distract voters from domestic issues and their own theft of tax payer money. It also gives slavers and human traffickers a fresh supply of victims to kidnap/extort and bring onto the international market.

Afghanistan was an incredible success in this regard.

>>64124732 (OP)
like 2000 US soldiers died in Afghanistan you retard, something like 100-200 THOUSAND afghans died in the war.

If a kill ratio of fifty to a hundred to one is not enough to accomplish your goals, marginally better "tactical supremacy" is not going to fulfill them.

>>64124732 (OP)
Policy decisions where the main factor in Afghanistan turning into a shitshow, primarily the drain on resources and manpower caused by the Iraq war that caused a domino effect on it turning into said shitshow

>>64124946
>>64125200
>>64127340

Here Anons, save picrel to fire back at him whenever another Chinsect tries to relitigate the War to Resist America & Aid Korea.

>>64125201
Certainly not the taliban, given that they both sell drugs and rape children constantly

>>64127565
>war is a measure of k:d, not achievement of strategic objectives
this board will never recover from 2022, will it?

>>64127587
>Mao's son (Mao Anying) died from a napalm strike in 1950, preventing a Mao dynasty.
If he was anything like his father, that probably only aided the PRC

>>64124732 (OP)
The problem in Afghanistan wasn't technology.Trying to win over the Afghan populance was never going to work and the US was obviously not willing to just kill them.So after they left everything went to shit again.

Anon, drones were heavily used in Afganistan, and they were proper drones with heavy payloads and powerful cameras with thermals.
There's multiple videos of Afgans digging in IEDs being watched and got by drones.

>>64127603
The Taliban stopped the child rapes, it started up again after they were deposed and western troops were told to look the other way.
Poppy growing also increased under the coalition occupation, its a weird case of the Taliban being no worse or possibly better than the Afgans on 'our' side. Garbage country full of garbage people

>>64127395
Seems like a pretty good racket for the higher level players involved.
Why did it end, then? 20 years isn't really that long in the grand scheme of things. And it was a pretty bloodless affair for the US, all things considered.

>>64127648
But I literally said the exact opposite of that you unbelievable retard, read it again.

>>64127060
>And by God did we try do do that.
Nope. You would have to run a full colonial occupation whereby you are imparting a culture and education on them. The coalition did some training, infrastructure and left bs NGOs to fill in the in-between, the one thing that the US did leave was an implicit need for foreign aid, now that the Taliban cannot provide for the population they will flee to neighbouring countries, oh wait Afghans just got kicked from Iran and Pakistan, Europe it is.

>>64129914
They got kick out of Iran because lots if them were paid by israel to manufactured those drones inside Iran.

Everyone platoon should have a personal drone. And every platoon should NOT be packing gear like camels. Better logistics and supply points, to keep infantry lighter and quicker just like in WW2(GEE I WONDER WHY THINGS WENT SMOOTHER BACK THEN). Who says the war was lost? Taliban agreed to cut ties with al qaeda.

>>64129936
Iranian anons told me they are barbaric compared to the urbanised Iranians and were trying to practise Bachi Bazi and just being weird.
They were kicked out before Israel's special drone op besides

>>64124732 (OP)
You could have won by fucking off and not imposing a puppet government on someone else's country.

>>64129948
>https://edition.cnn.com/2025/07/11/world/iran-expels-afghans-un-intl

>The deportations – part of a program Iran announced in March – have radically increased in pace since the 12-day conflict with Israel, fueled by unsubstantiated claims that Afghans had spied for Israel prior to and during the attacks. Scant evidence has emerged to support claims of Afghan migrants assisting Israel has emerged, leading critics to suggest Iran is simply fulfilling a long-held ambition to reduce its illegal Afghan population and focusing internal dissent on a vulnerable minority.

If muslims werent retard corrupt faggots, israel wouldnt last long in the region even with all the us help and support

>>64129974
The quote still claims that deportations were already happening and the Israeli glowie claim is just a cheap pretext to remove a troublesome population
>If muslims werent retard corrupt faggots, israel wouldnt last long in the region even with all the us help and support
>waah why won't Iran punish itself and its people by importing these rural hicks

>>64129974
>>64129988
I'm sure some bleeding hearts in Europe will scurry to get them bought to the west and act shocked when they commit sexual assaults and murderm

>>64129988
It accelerated the process since nots of the drones manufacturers were indeed afghans, just like lots if treacherous scums that give infos to israel were indians.

>waah why won't Iran punish itself and its people by importing these rural hicks
Never said that retard.

>>64130005
The one important immigrants into europe are the jews and their ongs

>>64127033
>Taliban would've done better than Hamas
Is this true? My understanding is that in both Vietnam and Afghanistan, the insurgents had an unoccupied base from where they could launch attacks and retreat back to.

Israel has Hamas confined to gaza, which is tiny and doesn't have thick jungles or mountains with cave systems. They can't just enter Israel and blend in with the population to attack at will and disappear into the crowd. Gaza is pretty much razed to the ground, and Hamas doesn't have a base like North Vietnam or Pakistan, where they can scurry back to and regroup when they get their shit rocked.

>>64129891
True, I am an unbelievable retard.

>>64130022
I mean yeah. Hamas being confined in Gaza in their particular circumstances probably precluded them developing the skills needed to become effective insurgents. But that still fundamentally means they're not actually as effective of insurgents as the likes of the Taliban or the VC. Those guys had decades of experience in the school of hard knocks learning to survive while the US was going all out in trying to destroy them. Hamas by contrast has spent most of its existence threading the needle of performing performative violence against the Israeli's to gain street cred while not pissing the Israeli's off *too* much...only for the performative violence to get out of hand and for them to be totally flabbergasted at the consequences.

If anything the Taliban/Vietnamese communists were probably smart enough to understand that pulling off a(nother) massive terrorist attack against the mainland United States would mainly make the Americans willing to throw themselves into the quagmire for another decade at least. I don't see them carrying out something like the 10/7 attacks.

>>64124732 (OP)
No matter any of the other points raised already, so long as president cheney and his band of blithering fuckwits were in charge nothing would have made a difference. Any "win" scenario would have required a different administration wit actual, competent professionals calling the shots. The only reason bush as been memory-holed as the worst president ever is because the orange heinous is so fucking stupid and evil.

>>64130419
Saying Hamas is dumb and incompetent while not being able to defeat them just makes you look dumber and more incompetent btw.

>>64124732 (OP)
As much as turd worlders might like to chest thumb about defeating the evil satan, the truth is that the US just got bored and decided to go home, if they had felt like it they could have stayed there and continued killing shitskins in great numbers pretty much indefinitely. Afghanistan was just a playground to give US forces a place to train and gain experience.

>>64131690
cope

>>64124732 (OP)
>Could Afghanistan have been won with new technology?
It was.

>>64131690
>the truth is that dimwit donnie negotiated with a terrorist organization in secret and then did absolutey fuck nothing for an entire year to prepare a military withdrawal, dumping the entire clusterfuck into someone else's lap to clean up
ftfy, no charge, (You) dishonest shit

>>64125680
So you keep denying things never happened unless their is a picture?

>>64124754
Bombardment doesn't work if the enemy hides underground, which was the problem with vietnam. You can bomb the fuck out of afghanistan, but everyone is under the sand for this very reason. Then you need to search out every tunnel and either drone it or have a bunker buster dropped there, and when you do that they just change the tunnels to go around the part you blew up. You then end up in a whack-a-mole eternal war on terror

>>64124732 (OP)
When did the USA go to war with Afghanistan, anon?
I seem to has missed that bit of history.

>>64125854
>Taliban can't exist if you kill them all and all of their male children so there can be no future taliban
>>64125513
>This, if their tactics are to keep dying till you get tired just don't get tired and keep slaughtering them
That literally won't work, dipshit. Afghan Taliban aren't hostages like Palestinians, and that tactic hasn't even worked in Palestine. Afghanistan also isn't relatively-empty flatland like Palestine. It's large and IEA's eastern stronghold is mountainous.

Afghan Taliban can always hide and move about. Between villages, cities, mountainous terrain, caves and across borders. NATO was never going to win. The fact that you morons think tactics that failed in Vietnam, Cambodia and Laos would suddenly work in Afghanistan is laughable.

And are you clowns forgetting the "Green on Blue" attacks where individuals INSIDE the police and military started killing troops? You'd get a lot more of that as a consequence of the tactics you're suggesting. The occupation wouldn't last anywhere near 20 years like it did.

>>64124754
>It could have been won with IDF tactics
>You can not defeat an islamic civilization by even merely roughly following the rules of honorable warfare
The IDF wouldn't last 3 years with the Taliban. They couldn't even beat Hezbollah in the 90s and lost. The first thing the Afghan Taliban did when the US invaded was strategically withdraw. They refuse to be hostages or sitting targets.

When the early Muslims were persecuted in Mecca, they fled to Yathrib (Medina) and Aksum (Eritrea/Ethiopia). Actual Islamic warfare and strategy is very different from the multi-level clusterfucks going on in Palestine and most of the Muslim World today.

The only reason Israel can massacre Palestinians en masse is because of the likes of Egypt and Jordan being Israel's guard dogs and colluders. Not to mention the gaslighting by the rest of the Arab and Muslim worlds because the majority of Arab regimes are allied with Israel for decades now.

>>64124732 (OP)
>Could Afghanistan have been won
No. You can't "win" Afghanistan.

>>64134049
you can, you just need to drop western morality and make it a mission to kill all human life within the borders, or hell, just seriously loosening rules of engagement would work.
afterwards colonise it with white people.

>>64134054
That ain't winning. Who the fuck would want to live in Afghanistan if not sandniggers

>>64134065
bullshit, people manage to survive in vegas and nevada, put a few tech companies over there and the rest will work itself out with civilian service economy.
also you can do more mining operations

>>64124732 (OP)
the war wasn't lost because the US didn't have enough technology
it was lost because the US couldn't get the population onboard with their project. mainly because the people the appointed to lead Afghanistan where corrupt fuck ups and the US couldn't read the crowed that their guys where hated.
getting pov drones would just stretch things out

>>64134096
>manage to survive
we can manage to survive on Antarctica but no one lives there but a couple of scientists
why would everyone ever set up shop in Afghanistan?
>muh mineral
that can be gotten in places that don't suck, are easier to mine and where you don't have to export them trough one of three mountain passes

>>64127905
>The Taliban stopped the child rapes
Imagine believing this.

>>64134096
>people manage to survive in vegas and nevada
omg you're so right, just bring white people in Kabul and it'll turn into Vegas real easily. Duh

>>64124732 (OP)
I remember reading about biometrics being collected over there, got me wondering if pushing that to 11 would work. Of course, it's much easier to sell the idea of killing someone than it is to sell the idea of taking away their freedoms and human independence, but I do wonder if expanding on the information front would've changed things. Just turning the country into a surveillance state.
I mean China, say what you will, does this with the uyghurs, just police the fuck out of everything and turn the people's society into a culture of snitches, always paranoid, never safe communicating any thought that may possibly potentially be perceived as wrong.
They even export the stuff. China's been selling their mass surveillance tech and infrastructure to the africans in order to keep the riff-raff away from the chinese-owned mines and to keep whoever they have in charge of the country in power. Hard to run an insurgency when there's a camera everywhere, there's an AI designed specifically to put together a pattern based off of your behavior, every post online is curated by machines to ensure that any conformity is rewarded, any dissent is isolated and put down. Like a disease. Like, if everyone is telling you your belief in changing things is wrong and bad and therefore you are wrong and bad, everyone's hyperaggressive about appearing like they don't agree with you, all government, financial, etc. institutions work together to keep you from infecting anyone else's mind, and anyone who would've stuck up for you is scared of making the AI think they're worth punishing and ostracizing as well, you're probably not going to overthrow much of anything, regardless of the actual popularity of your beliefs. The people will clap when told, because the system has been perfected: anyone against the powers that be is ontologically evil, ugly and alone, and us righteous heroes of the people love the government that protects us from said evil.
That, but Afghanistan.

>>64134049
If the objective was getting Afghanistan to cease meddling in US politics, the war did indeed accomplish that, if in the most clumsy, inefficient way possible.

>>64131690
>if they had felt like it they could have stayed there and continued killing shitskins in great numbers pretty much indefinitely.
I mean, yeah, we could have spent a few more decades, more trillions, and more thousands of troops that cost 10s of thousands of dollars to train, but why the fuck would we? If what we've already spent on the gwot has't gotten us anywhere, why would doing the same thing for another decade or 2
Even if you don't care about the US winning and just wanna see brown people die, there are much more effective ways to exterminate a local populace. Just ask the brits and israelis

What's stopping the families of the hostages from storming the prisons imprisoned Hamas are and turn them from 3000 to 0 in a 'if we don't see our families again, neither will you' way? Especially if the guards are sympathetic.

>>64130419
The Taliban and the U.S. actually cut a deal so they wouldn't target U.S. troops during the drawdown and exit. Hamas isn't like that. They're very obsessed with international media and are more eschatological and dramaturgical, and they want to destroy Israel and don't care if Gaza burns as long as Israel bleeds. Force a war and take hostages and treat them like trophies, refuse to give all them up, and then hide in tunnels as Israel destroys the place to create images.

Afghanistan WAS won, Anon.
The glorified policing operation that followed was literally less dangerous than logging or roofing work for anyone involved.

>>64124732 (OP)
>Once you can solve the IED problem you can stabilise and have the breathing space to begin rooting out the corrupt governors, drug barons, the police boy-rapers and all the other shit that Afghanistan had

Fundamentally impossible, 75 IQ third worlders can't be fixed in a generation.
They can be ruled over colonial style, or they can be left to their own devices.
You won't be able to build a western style democracy and high trust society there, it WILL fall apart the second you leave.

You don't need hi-tech to "win" Afghanistan, you need political will and a clear picture of what does "winning" mean for you. Going in, toppling Taliban, and going back out is a win, if you define it so. Once you lack a clear picture of what is you're actually doing then it all goes to shit. More so when you artificially tied the hands of your military behind their backs for political reasons.

>>64125957
- retarded politicians;
- even more retarded society;
- no clear picture of what "winning" is;
- dumb limitations on what the army can and can not do, which fuck up its efficiency;
- based on even more dumb reasoning (hurr-durr we can't go into North Vietnam because reasons, so we'll be fighting a war against people who can retreat back home and be safe);

>>64136732
What you're saying is very reductionist and inaccurate. Hamas aren't very eschatological. They're also very open to and has actively conducted talks with the US and Israel, but it's Israel that wants total surrender by Hamas and to continue genociding Gazans. That's why they've broken every past ceasefire and refuse to end the war.

At this point, even if Hamas surrendered there's no guarantee that Israel would stop. So they see no point surrendering. Hamas isn't even the only one fighting. There's PIJ and Communist groups like PFLP and DFLP fighting too.

>>64134372
>>64130419
The IEA never attacked US soil nor had anything to do with 9/11. Al-Qaeda operated in Afghanistan the same way Hizbul Islam, the Northeen Alliance factions, and other groups operated in Afghanistan. The Afghan Taliban simply didn't control all of Afghanistan nor whatever went on inside the country by different actors.

Invading Afghanistan did nothing to actually prosecute or eliminate the persons behind 9/11. Anyone with a brain could tell you that AQ leaders would simply leave the country when NATO invaded, which is what they did. You don't need to invade and occupy Afghanistan in order to eliminate said leaders, whether they be hiding in Afghanistan, Pakistan or elsewhere. Targeted drone strikes or special operations could do that, which is what the US ultimately had to do.

9/11 wasn't reliant on Afghanistan at all. The hijackers were from elsewhere and did their flight training in the US! Had the attack happened something like a decade later, it's unlikely anyone would get away with suggesting an invasion of an entire country in response. An attack like that only needs international phone calls, emails or internet to be conducted. That includes the 1995 bombing in KSA, the 1998 bombing in Kenya and Tanzania, and the 2000 bombing in Yemen.

AQ operatives were located across the world. Their attacks weren't perpetrated or planned from nor reliant on one central location at all.

>>64137148
>continue genociding Gazans
Faggots like you devalue the term genocide

>>64125178
And no more fucking preteen boys

>>64136732
What you're saying is very reductionist and inaccurate. Hamas aren't very eschatological. They're also not the only ones fighting. There's PIJ and Marxist groups like PFLP and DFLP fighting too.

Hamas is very open to and has actively conducted talks with the US and Israel, but it's Israel that wants total surrender by Hamas and to continue genociding Gazans because nobody's stopping them but plenty aiding it. That's why they've broken every past ceasefire and refuse to end the war. At this point even if Hamas surrendered there's no guarantee that Israel will stop. So they see no point surrendering.

>>64134372
>>64130419
The IEA never attacked US soil nor had anything to do with 9/11. Al-Qaeda operated in Afghanistan the same way Hizbul Islam, Northern Alliance factions, and other groups operated in Afghanistan. Afghan Taliban simply didn't control all of Afghanistan or whatever went on inside it by different actors.

Invading Afghanistan did nothing to actually prosecute or eliminate the persons behind 9/11. Anyone with a brain can predict that AQ leaders would simply leave the country when NATO invaded, which is what they did. You don't need to invade and occupy Afghanistan in order to eliminate said leaders, whether they be hiding in Afghanistan, Pakistan or elsewhere. Targeted drone strikes or special operations could do that, which is what the US ultimately had to do.

9/11 wasn't reliant on IEA or Afghanistan at all. The hijackers were from elsewhere and did their flight training in the US! Had the attack happened like a decade later, it's unlikely anyone would get away with suggesting an invasion of an entire country in response. Attacks like that only need international phonecalls, emails or internet to be conducted. That includes the 1995 bombing in KSA, the 1998 bombing in Kenya and Tanzania, and the 2000 bombing in Yemen.

AQ operatives were located across the world. Their attacks weren't staged from nor reliant on one central location at all.

>>64137159
>Faggots like you devalue the term genocide
Fuck off shill. Every prominent human rights group is calling Israel's war on Gaza a genocide.

You don't give a shit even if it was or wasn't a genocide either way. Stop being a twink because words hurt your feelings.

>>64137202
>Every prominent human rights group
Fuck those closeted commies, I remember how they've whitewashed russian shit during 2022-2023

>>64134372
>>64130419
The IEA never attacked US soil nor had anything to do with 9/11. Al-Qaeda operated in Afghanistan the same way Northern Alliance and Hezb-e-Islam factions and other groups operated in Afghanistan. Afghan Taliban simply didn't control all of Afghanistan or whatever went on inside it by different actors.

Invading Afghanistan did nothing to actually prosecute or eliminate the persons behind 9/11. Anyone with a brain can predict that AQ leaders would simply leave the country when NATO invaded, which is what they did. You don't need to invade and occupy Afghanistan in order to eliminate said leaders, whether they be hiding in Afghanistan, Pakistan or elsewhere. Targeted drone strikes or special operations could do that, which is what the US ultimately had to do.

9/11 wasn't reliant on IEA or Afghanistan at all. The hijackers were from elsewhere and did their flight training in the US! Had the attack happened like a decade later, it's unlikely anyone would get away with suggesting an invasion of an entire country in response. Attacks like that only need international phonecalls, emails or internet to be conducted. That includes the 1995 bombing in KSA, the 1998 bombing in Kenya and Tanzania, and the 2000 bombing in Yemen.

AQ operatives were located across the world. Their attacks weren't staged from nor reliant on one central location at all.

>>64136732
What you're saying is very reductionist and inaccurate. Hamas aren't very eschatological. They're also not the only ones fighting. There's PIJ, and Marxist groups like PFLP and DFLP fighting too.

Hamas has been open to and actively conducted talks with the US and Israel, but it's Israel that wants total surrender by Hamas and to continue genociding Gazans because nobody's stopping them but plenty aiding it. That's why they've broken every past ceasefire and refuse to end the war. At this point even if Hamas surrendered there's no guarantee that Israel will stop. So they see no point surrendering.

>>64124884
>>64137209
Learn the difference between the Ukraine War and the Gaza Genocide.

More Israelis have dual-citizenship in Russia than in any other country. They're the same orks. They use the same tactics. The difference is in the pushback against them.
Israel was created by ethnic-cleansing Palestinian inhabitants using weapons provided by the Warsaw Pact and logistically facilitated by Yugoslavia between 1947 and 1949.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arms_shipments_from_Czechoslovakia_to_Israel

>>64124884
>>64137209
Learn the difference between the Ukraine War and the Gaza Genocide.

More Jewish Israelis have dual-citizenship in Russia than in any other country. They're the same orks. They use the same tactics. The difference is in the pushback against them.
Israel was created by ethnic-cleansing Muslim and Christian Palestinian inhabitants using weapons provided by the Warsaw Pact and logistically facilitated by Yugoslavia between 1947 and 1949.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arms_shipments_from_Czechoslovakia_to_Israel

>>64137267
>Israel was created by ethnic-cleansing Muslim and Christian Palestinian inhabitants using weapons provided by the Warsaw Pact

Israel was created by the British government dividing the land they were governing (after they inherited it from the Ottoman empire) between jews and muslims.
Jews said OK. All of the surrounding muslims instantly invaded them with overwhelming numbers because they were absolutely sure they could crush them and wouldn't have to cede an inch of land to jews.
Instead they got their shit pushed in because the jews anticipated this and armed themselves in advance.
Muslims have been coping and seething ever since and usually losing more land in the process, despite the USSR handholding their stone age asses.

>>64137267
1. Numbers are fake;
2. They do not include the children kidnapped by russians;
3. The reason less kids die in Ukraine is because a ton of refugees was allowed to leave the region into Europe, while palestinians are so fucked up that their neighbors don't want to have anything to do with them.

>>64137310
>overwhelming numbers
The IDF was never outnumbered in any of the battles they fought.

>USSR handholding their stone age asses.
Reminds me of a modern military that is incapable of wining despite extreme unending material support.

>>64125957
Hearts and minds instead of ground and pound

>>64137310
>Israel was created by the British government dividing the land they were governing (after they inherited it from the Ottoman empire) between jews and muslims.
Not even remotely true you fucking spastic. Mandatory Palestine (the clue is in the fucking name) was a MANDATE, given to the British by the League Of Nations to administer the area of Palestine until it was deemed ready for statehood. The division of it after WW2 was done by the fledgling United Nations. You utterly failed in the FIRST FUCKING SENTENCE, because you're a moron who has no fucking idea of the history that you're so confidently declaiming on.

>>64137452
Hearts and Minds never worked because race is a phisological phenomena, even if you kinapped and brainwashed every worthless mudlet in the entire country they'd just grow up to be useless muds who still rape, steal, and fuck around but without islam. So welfare cases which libtards could cry about at best.

The only solution is to blow every mind out of every skull and every heart out of every chest.

>>64137267
Lol, don't care, there's a billion muslims in the world and there'll be more 'cause they fuck like rabbits. Every shitty thing said about jews is just a fucking meme fueled by Qatar and China.

>>64136657
Nothing except more bad PR, which won't really matter if it's done by enraged civilians rather than soldiers.

>>64124732 (OP)
Afghanistan was only "lost" because Biden expected the media to do a better job blaming his deliberately botched pullout on Trump. Everyone who died in the pullout died because the Democrats see themselves as nobles and everyone else as peasants to be sacrificed or replaced for their political goals.

>>64124844
The hicks always beat the urban prissy boys.
>But the American Civil War
Was primarily fought between an army led by prissy Southern aristocrats who viewed their troops as peasant levies and the Gatling gun as a meme against an army that saw artillery as more useful than cavalry and was run mostly by the middle class.

>>64137267
>Christian Palestinians
Almost none and the Muslims were doing their best to wipe them out, as we saw with ISIS. Now take it to /pol/ if you want to cry about dead sand niggers because as far as I'm concerned we should nuke their gay rock and ban their demonic religion globally on pain of death.

>>64133980
>Afghan Taliban can always hide and move about. Between villages, cities, mountainous terrain, caves and across borders. NATO was never going to win. The fact that you morons think tactics that failed in Vietnam, Cambodia and Laos would suddenly work in Afghanistan is laughable.
Just kill everyone, eventually Afghanistan would've ended up empty and you could repopulate it with civilized human beings

>>64138444
Fuck Palestine!

>>64138444
>Muslims were doing their best to wipe them out
Then its funny how quite literally every Christian Palestinian leader says that its the Israelis trying to wipe them out.

>as we saw with ISIS
Funded by Israel.

>Now take it to /pol/ if you want to cry about dead sand niggers because as far as I'm concerned we should nuke their gay rock and ban their demonic religion globally on pain of death.
See pic.

>>64137223
>Hamas aren't very eschatological.
If that's the case then it means they're profoundly retarded instead. Israel going ape-shit in response to 10/7 was an entirely foreseeable outcome, especially when under Netanyahu and his coalition. And any non-delusional force assessment would determined that Israel going ape shit would inflict astronomically greater damage than whatever concessions Hamas could wrangle out of Israel through a hostage exchange. Hamas *not* being death cultists is kind of irrelevant if stupidity and irrational expectations makes them behave as if they were.

>>64133980
Genocide is the answer. It always has been.

>>64124732 (OP)
>Could Afghanistan have been won with new technology?
That's one way to look at it.
Another is to ask yourself "How much new technology came out of the war in Afghanistan"?

>>64138738
Hamas are far smarter than the Israelis and knew exactly what they would do after October 7 was a success. The Palestinian cause had been essentially abandoned and now it is the slavery movement of the 21st century and has essentially doomed American support of Israel. If only the Israelis weren't so fucking retarded.

>>64124732 (OP)
why do you care about them? they didn't even do the 911 attack

>>64125178
Why do we care if women can vote in Afghanistan, that was the stupid "nation building" bullshit that came up later to justify continuing the war. We just want them to stop being a safe haven to Al Qaeda and other terror groups. Its more like "Taliban, you can be apart of the new government, but if you allow Terrorists back in the country we are going to come back shit kick you again."

The Afghans had a long term culture and pride built on being ungovernable to conquerors.
Even if you defeat them every time you fight a battle, they would keep doing hit and run attacks and suicide attacks.
They also kept a lot of forces in Pakistan at any time.
Outside of killing most and pressuring effectively enough or invading nuclear Pakistan too it was always going to be a place where dozens get blown up manning checkpoints indefinitely.


The guys best at and willing to fight the Islamic radicals were also boy raping druglords that the Taliban had been mean to. So coalition soldiers had to work with druglords raping little boys and help defend opium plantations, shipments, and the fertilizer and stuff to grow and manufacture heroin. While getting told crap like it is for switching from opium and growing veggies.
There was plenty of blue on green and green on blue when soldiers were working with guys with little boy harems they were fucking even on shared bases.
Hamid kharzai's (us supported leader) brother was one of the largest heroin producers in the world in a tribal close family society.
The usa was basicly allied with people most afghans knew were worse than the Taliban.
Even those villages pretending to like you hated you and just didn't want to get bombed to death. And so always shared intel with the enemy (who could also kill them.)
The most effective US allies were mostly comicly evil, and the Taliban were typical muslim fundementalists in a muslim region big on guns. You would have to kill almost every good person in the nation to not have people plotting against you.

As for drones, in the huge stockpiles of gear the Taliban siezed on videosin the end, drones were included. Coalition could usualy call in death from above via airstrike, artillery, or predator drone any time they verified an enemy was present.
So it is not like the Taliban could have frontlines anyways. More drones wouldn't have changed that.

>>64140491
Doesn't change the fact they've killed between, dunno, what were the numbers? 60k? 2 million? Hamas wants to kill jews, but they also want to outlive Israel, which I'm pretty sure won't happen, and not just because climate change will eventually turn Gaza into a desert (Israel's prepared for it).

>>64124732 (OP)
This is a complete non-issue. But now that orange moron is giving away parts of ukraine to russia, do you believe attacks by these partisans on enemy infrastructure will cease?

>>64140491
>and has essentially doomed American support of Israel
That might be more viable as a long term strategy if Gaza hadn't been reduced to rubble currently undergoing a hunger crisis while the United States still had 3.5 more years of being helmed by a mercurial geriatric who thinks pic related is a fantastic idea. Israel losing some amount of US military support years from now doesn't help Hamas if they're all dead or reduced to a horde of starved vagrants living in tents by then. You can't hand logically hand wring about how all that is so terrible while also somehow believing that Hamas somehow aren't suicidal fanatics or retards.

>>64140491
>Let's set up an international music festival right next to some terrorists
You know what they say about 9/11.

>>64130419
>that video
This guy is everything, everywhere, every time.

>>64142387
Look man, gaza is only so big, you gotta fill a lot of shoes when everyone keeps getting ganked by the hebrew hammer.

>>64142388
Truly a man who wears many turbans.

>>64142299
And deep down, people want muslims to suffer.

>>64142391
Actually it would be a man who wears many keffiyehs. Turbans are actually not an arab thing at all.

>>64137223
>>64137267

bump

>>64125854
If you had half a brain cell in that noggin of yours not only would you see that wouldn't work, but you would have read the news after the victory of the taliban in afghanistan.

Not only were the more popular with the people than the american military wanted to admit, but a ton of their supporters lived in neighboring pakistan until the war was won.

Because of these two facts it retroactively reveals even genocide wouldn't properly work because their supporters are not only numerous across the civilian population, but a nearby nuclear armed state was one of the main ferry points to get weapons and supplies in.

You couldn't attempt to do to afghanistan what is being done in gaza, and even there that city is still defiant only further proving my point.

>>64125880
>>64126024
You retards would have caused the world to end decades ago, you don't just use nukes.

Not only would that immediately ruin the USA's prospects of having the world support them, but it would instantaneously push the rest of the world into the hands of russia and china.

Nation after nation would simply join a NATO equivalent out of fear of being the next victim.

More nations would also rush to create nukes at all costs, and more rogue nations like india may be willing to sell some of this knowledge in order to benefit.

As for pakistan they would either nuke us back or at least do damage to allies nearby.

You can't win a nuclear war in the modern era, you can only mitigate inevitable damage.

If pakistan was nuked they would retaliate in kind and even if their arsenal is smaller and weaker, it only takes one hit in a crucial area to do more damage than the entire afghanistan war was ever worth.

>>64125534
You are arguing with crayon eating retards, the type to say "give me 12 marines and I will solve it in an hour" on facebook like some idiotic boomer.

None of these people have even a modicum of an idea about war outside of movies like top gun and video games like hoi4.

"hearts and minds" mean nothing to these people, and neither does anything else because they never have and never will read history outside of class.

They believe what goy-news tells them on CNN or FOX like its anything other than retard elites saying things that aren't true.

The american school system has sidelined critical thinking in favor of producing weak slaves and this is the result.

America is dead and its never coming back, these people are the guys who will unironically push for war in Iran to defend israel.

>>64127587
Yeah america succeeded in the korean war, but the issue is modern wars in the middle east is a different beast.

You are essentially fighting a nation that is inherently against your military, with enemies surrounding it.

If you are brutal like israel the enemies only multiply.

If you are too lax you just lose.

You can't win in these wars without immense sacrifice or time.

With the innovation of new drone technology, and the proliferation of more complex explosives like tandem rockets, armor has never been more useless.

Any tank rolling up to a town is in danger even if you send infantry to clear IEDs and even clear out any rebels waiting in ambush.

Some guy can take a cheap drone and reduce that tank and anyone around it to charred remains.

America's only real shot is to become like cold war era america.

Stop invading places outright, just fund the guys you want to win an accept a partial victory.

America then didn't press the korean issue for a stable ally, but modern day america would just fight a forever war then pull out completely.

>>64124732 (OP)
>Could Afghanistan have been won with new technology?
You can't win against an insurgency through military means. The US already dominated the Taliban utterly; the people in charge now were kids when we first arrived and had a safe harbor in Pakistan because the Pakis are fucking stupid and wanted to influence Afghanistan when eventually left.

The only way to win is to build the nation from the ground up. Give people a reason to work together and buy into the dream of a nation. No one was really interested in that, so it was inevitable that the one group that was (the Taliban) would eventually win.

>>64127060
Most kids saw nothing of the US until one day their taliban father/brother/uncle/cousin gets a 500lb bomb on his head and another little flip flopping wearing sandmonkey and his 18 close kin are picking up AKs

>>64124732 (OP)
Sorry but you do not win against the people. Unless your idea of winning is genoxlcide and scorched earth.

>>64127352
I feel by far the worst for those guys, they were the only people who didn't go quietly when the country fell apart (and that region full of old northern alliance tribes)
I still remember their last holdouts in the days following the withdrawal

>>64127878
I hate quadcopter retards so much when it's a pale imitation of what we've used for decades

>>64127352
>You'd need more of the Afghans to be like these guys first and foremost
That's certainly true. But I think there was a secondary issue is that you also needed more of the motivated (and less comically corrupt) Afghans like that spread out into leadership roles throughout the security forces. Not all concentrated into the Commando Battalions. It insulated them from the incompetence of the regular army, but it also exacerbated the issue of the regular army being useless. Meaning the Commandos had to do most of the fighting, which meant most of their specialized commando training and organization around special operations was kind of pointless. They just ended up being used as a conventional (if elite) line unit that got the "Ramirez do everything!" treatment until they got ground down by attrition.

I think a bit of this was SOCOM buying into their own hype about being the be all and end all of everything. Rather than specialists who work best supporting a highly capable regular army. So I think there were a lot of guys advocating that what the ANA needed were units of super badass operators, with the considerably less sexy (and much harder) job of getting the baseline level of proficiency of the regular ANA units up to a semi-acceptable level getting less attention.

>>64152438
There's a bong who argued this exact point in WW2
By taking all these people out of the regular armed forces you are weakening it as a collective
And to be fair if you think of all the FUBAR situations that get scraped through by some absolute maniac who would be poached by some ABCsoup group normally, then I can see his point

>>64124732 (OP)
Afghanistan ended because US didn't want to be there. It collapsed under Biden's withdraw because ANA didn't guard shit and after US left an area there was no presence. The US was only at Kandahar Airport because literally every base had been shut down and evacuated peacefully.

>>64126145
>Squad level FPVs are a much better response the the 1200 meter PKM harassing fire problem
Which is exactly switchblade. A dummy proof FPV that flies itself and will follow a moving target with image recognition.

I agree that flying a fpv in acro/air mode is stupid easy, but it is a learned skill. Angle mode or some automatic mode needs less training and can be operated by more kludging neanderthals.

>>64124732 (OP)
Afghanistan cannot be won. The current agreement which allows the US to bomb them at will is pretty much the best deal of all time and I can't believe they agreed to it. All the plus sides but none of the downsides.

>>64153113
>The current agreement which allows the US to bomb them at will is pretty much the best deal of all time and I can't believe they agreed to it.
QRD?