Thread 64412460

order was placed yesterday, 150 are for the German army and 72 for the Dutch army

delivery is scheduled for 2027-2031

it's the Boxer chassis with the unmanned turret from the Puma IFV

this vehicle is named Schakal (jackal)

option for 200 more vehicles is included in the contract too

https://www.hartpunkt.de/vertrag-fuer-die-lieferung-von-222-radschuetzenpanzer-schakal-unterschrieben/

Neat

Question that might sound really retarded but I got to ask. I see a lot of European nations adopting mostly wheeled IFVs and APCs over tracked ones. Is this due to the fact that Europe has pretty well developed road and highway systems?

222 wheels sounds like a bit much for an IFV

in other news the German parliament recently approved the order for 274 new recon vehicles designated Luchs 2 (lynx 2), but afaik the order hasn't been placed yet, should follow very soon though

it's a 6x6 Piranha V from GDELS with an unmanned 25mm remote turret from Rheinmetall, capable of airburst ammo and engaging drones as well

it's amphibious and will replace the Fennek (fennec) armored car

https://defence-network.com/bundeswehr-274-fennek-spaehfahrzeug-ng/

>>64412466
it's complementary, not replacing tracked IFVs
Germany still has the Puma and the Netherlands still have the CV90
afaik, the German army wants to adopt a new model called medium forces based mostly on wheeled platforms (mainly Boxer).
the point is to be armored and armed well enough to be able to fight independently while still being more easily deployable and mobile than a force consisting of heavier tracked vehicles like Leo 2s and Pumas, because those take longer to reach the combat area and need railway transport

>>64412469
its to provide overmatch against russian vehicle like tornado s with its 8 countem (eight) wheels

>>64412460 (OP)
>222 wheeled IFVs
Holy fuck, that is a lot of wheels.

>>64412505
Must be a proper bitch to park

knowing germoids, they will be ready in 2040

>>64412460 (OP)
Hello, I would also like to place an order. I want one for my back yard.

If the tracks are cut, the vehicle loses its ability to move, but the wheels seem to be much stronger in that respect. This is even more so if the number of wheels is increased to six or eight.

>>64412513
how many dicks did you suck today already, you annoying faggot?

it's 2027-2031.

https://youtu.be/O1jIKzGJ4qc

Are they whole vehicles or just new mission modules to go on and replace existing APC modules on the Boxer A2s?
I assume if they're new vehicles with new drive modules, they will be A3s like Britain has, with a 600 kW engine?

>>64412591
new vehicles, and yes, they're apparently the same ones Britain is getting


btw this is in addition to 123 already ordered different autocannon Boxers with the same 30mm gun but different (Lance 2.0) turret

that one has a manned turret and used by the infantry (Jäger), the new order with unmanned Puma turrets will be used by mechanized infantry (Panzergrenadiere)

>>64412608
"Schwerer Waffenträger" to replace Wiesel IIRC. With the majority to be built in Australia before fitting out in Germany

>>64412622
yes, it's to replace the Wiesel in the role of fire support for the infantry.

if the Wiesel will be replaced in its role as airborne platform for the paratroopers and if so with what is still not clear

>>64412513

Knowing seething frogniggerpoopgooklaks they're still screeching this in 2050, when they're in service for 22 years.

i like how the dutch just let the germans lead their tank battalion. i wish there was more of that in the world. it takes a lot of trust for that. like for example a somewhat unified baltic military or japanese-korean shared fleets

>>64413017
the entire Dutch ground forces are integrated into the German army

>>64413017
>>64412460 (OP)
The Dutch are also planning to buy CCA drones for themselves and the Netherlands

>>64412591
Whole new vehicles with a new B0 drive module, pushing max combat weight to 40t. The B0 module allows to use either 530 KW (8V 199 TE20) or 600 KW (8V 199 TE21) engines.
Those vehicles will be used by the grenadier batallions in the new medium brigades.

>>64412505
Not a lot consider how many gets to sit in there.

>>64412460 (OP)
I for one welcome the return of a militarized Europe.

>>64413144
I'll never stop lobbying to make the Oriflamme the symbol for the United European military.

>>64413162
Give us back elsass-lothringen and we might find an accord.

>>64412466
short answer: yes
long answer:
>>64412472
Essentially, it is faster to stuff your boys into a Boxer and do a roadtrip to Lithuania / eastern Poland than to collect your IFVs and MBTs (schwere Kräfte [heavy forces]), load them onto a train, protect the tracks, unload the train and then drive the last 50ish km anyway.

>>64412466
Yes
Also they've accepted the Stryker doctrine i.e. networked manoeuvre, infantry dig in, heavy defensive fire

>>64413214
>He thinks Carolus Magnus was a frog

>>64413220
>Essentially, it is faster to stuff your boys into a Boxer and do a roadtrip to Lithuania / eastern Poland than to collect your IFVs and MBTs (schwere Kräfte [heavy forces]), load them onto a train, protect the tracks, unload the train and then drive the last 50ish km anyway.
NTA, but sweet. So even if Rail Baltica isn't finished, since Poland just finished their highway link to Lithuania, military mobility in the Baltics is still pretty resolute?

Why do I think that the NATO forces kinda don't know what to do after two weeks of a Russian invasion because they are pushed Russia out of the NATO countries in Eastern Europe and are now waiting on the borders.

>>64413244
>The Oriflamme was first used in 1124 by Louis VI of France,[6]
Nice try pierre.

>>64413355
The Oriflamme was mentioned in the 11th-century ballad the Chanson de Roland (vv. 3093–5) as a royal banner, first called Romaine and then Montjoie.[3] According to legend, Charlemagne carried it to the Holy Land in response to a prophecy regarding a knight possessing a golden lance from which flames would burn and drive out the Saracens.[4]

>>64413376
>According to legend, Charlemagne carried it to the Holy Land
Which we know never happened.

>>64413404
Don't care, it looks cool.

>>64412460 (OP)
I believe Belgium also had a joint order with the Netherlands?

>>64413507
Belgians just put an unmanned turret with Spikes on their Piranhas. They're not buying Boxers

>>64412472
>afaik, the German army wants to adopt a new model called medium forces based mostly on wheeled platforms (mainly Boxer).
So, the equivalent of Stryker brigades?

>>64413634
>So, the equivalent of Stryker brigades?
In essence, yes.

>>64413214
I think we can let that one rest for now. Soon Königsberg will be up for grabs again.

>>64413968
Yes, but Königsberg is populated by russians (gay) while Straßburg is populated by frenchified germans (also gay but might be salvageable).

>>64414343
It'll require a small Säberungsaktion, but its just russians, not neighbors we have to live with.

the whole european rearmament thing is making my head spin because i can't figure out if it makes any sense
> europe needs to rearm because russia is becoming aggressive again
> but russia had proved to be a laughing stock unable to take ukraine
> but that's because they're only sending in shitty volunteers and prison conscripts
> but that's just vatnik propaganda to excuse why they're doing so poorly
> but it is true that putin is deliberately withholding off on a general mobilization of the regular army to avoid pissing off the elite and urbanites
> but even if he did, russia's in demographic freefall and industrially / economically ratfucked by sanctions and refineries getting blowed up more and more
> but even if that's true an aggressive regular russian army could still do damage
> but putin is very old and the whole retarded country will collapse into infighting the moment he dies

i really don't know what to think anymore

>>64414438
>> but even if that's true an aggressive regular russian army could still do damage
>> but putin is very old and the whole retarded country will collapse into infighting the moment he dies
Europe is worried about the time window between the end of the Russo-Ukrainian War and Putin's death. Also, there's no guarantee that the man after Putin won't be just as bad.

>>64414438
Even a shithole like russia doesn't desintegrate instantly.
Even when it falls the successor failed states will do stupid shit that will make africa look like a royal tea ceremony.
Ukies need support now.
Baltics may need backup in the future.
Burgers demand more European contributions.
Trump isn't the most stable ally.

>>64412466
They still have, or had (Britain) tracked IFVs. But IFVs are expensive, so they get wheeled AFVs and use them in the IFV role.

Reminder this dude is the new head of the German Army

>>64414438
Because we're all going to war with China after this. They're arming under the auspices of the Russian war so that it doesn't tip off China that we're actually re-arming for WW3. That's why Singapore is buying ships, why Germany is buying IFVs, why Norway is investing in new drone programs. Its not to fight the war that's already over, its to fight the war coming up, which may possibly last decades.

>>64414498
Don't brits have ajax?

>>64414539
It's specifically a recon and utility family, not a replacement for Warrior, which will be replaced with Boxers.

>>64414539
They do, but it’s not an IFV.
GD and Lockheed put forward an IFV design with an unmanned turret this year but there isn’t a proper selection program for a new IFV yet

>>64414519
Does europe teally give a fuck about the pacific though? I'm sure they'll finger wag once the invasion of taiwan begins, but it's hard for me to picture cuck-era europe lifting a finger to save someone else's skin so far from home

>>64412460 (OP)
>Germany ordering 222 Sonderkraftfarzugs
Welcome back Sdkfz 222

>>64414504
I prefer this one.

>>64414637
>there isn’t a proper selection program for a new IFV yet
there already was, and Boxer was chosen

>>64414645
If the Pacific Hyperwar does indeed happen its more than likely going to spiral into a long term war that involves the entire US Alliance network in varying degrees. Bare minimum the US blows trillions on arming itself and buying off allies. Unlike the US the differing euro countries do retain some ship construction capacity spread around the continent. Of course the euro involvement could go beyond a flipped Arsenal of Democracy into military deployment but its so context specific. More than likely euro navies who don't jump in will take over US duties that aren't in the Bloodbath freeing up assets for redeployment. Then there is the matter of the Euro Carriers have a combined Aircrsft capacity of c279 craft.

The future is quite uncertain, the war could be incredibly implessivley short, turn into a titanic wrestling match to near nation state death or somewhere in between. In a Long One the Industrial ( and other areas)capacity of the US+Allies vs decisively weighs a long total war in its favour even if it doesnt get to the point where they deploy military force inna Pacific. This is all of course without discussing the various European connections to the countries that would get dragged into a Pacific conflict.

>>64412540
>Believing government estimates
ngmi

>>64414882
The Euros are poorer than the Americans by nearly every metric*
Their actual warship building capacity is not much greater than the Americans because they have a small workforce who take years and years to build each ship
They have significant trade ties with China, and have proven unable to cut those ties when it comes to a threat on their very own doorstep i.e. Russia
Nor have they proven able to devote more €s and £s to the supply of war, despite every apparent inclination to do so, and despite lambasting the Americans for not doing so.
In short, Europeans are all talk and in a proper war would best be employed looking after their own backyards from the opportunistic third-worlders who will take the chance to stab the West in the back while the Americans deal with China

>*their usual reply is "Well we have better work life balance"
which just means they have more unemployed hours and refuse to work more hours, either due to low demand or low supply, both of which mean economic stagnation. So it comes to the same thing ultimately, low productivity, which will take some time to reverse and mobilise in a war. If Europeans won't lift a finger to stop Russians or the Great Replacement, and would rather sell their companies to China than work, what makes you think they would exert themselves any greater in a proper war?

>>64412460 (OP)
>>64412466

wheeled IFVs are dumb, a better idea is a 4-tracked vehicle with composite rubber tracks.

>>64412639
>>64412608
I remember reading a few weeks ago the LuWa went the same way as the Booker.
So then these new wheelies will fill-in for what LuWa was supposed to be...

>>64415950
>>64415957
no, the Luwa is way lighter and was never intended as IFV.

the role which Luwa was meant to fill (Wiesel replacement as airborne fire support for paratroopers) is yet to be decided, it may be a platform based on the Caracal

>>64415957

i mean if it's for airborne/air assault, that implies rough terrain like jungle/mountain/islands/etc and a tracked vehicle would make sense.

>>64415961
I see.
So in a sense Wiesel was always 1 chassis stretched over several roles,
And now those roles are getting redivided into separate chassis.

Man nobody goes for open-wheel / dunebuggy suspension in their 4x4.
Guess that's because they want to take civvie trucks off the shelf.

>>64412472
>>64413220
Didn't somebody crunch the numbers and point out that the Boxers would have to be put into storage and overhauled once they reach East Poland under their own drive trains?

>>64415957
>they fell for the taurox meme

>>64416077
That seems really unlikely. One could imagine that the service interval between km would tell you change oils at some point, but thats nothing that would be of impact in a real war

>>64415950
>>64415957
>>64416085

what's the advantages of having 4 tracks instead of 2 tracks?

>>64416077
>800-900km roughly
I highly doubt it. Probably just an oil change.

>>64413045
And the German Marines are integrated into the dutch one, and the German and Belgian navies also serve under the Dutch navy. I mean we were always the water germans, so thats our thing. Meanwhile the Prussians excell at land fighting.

>>64414519
We would need to do markedly more investments into industry rather than weapons if that is the plan.

>>64416213
German marines (1 batallion) are under Dutch command, but the German navy isn't

>>64416213
Implying the modern German has anything to do with Prussia. Also the Kaiserliche Marine mogged the Dutch Navy

>>64412460 (OP)
Both nations only order fighting versions, no significant orders in different roles or modules despite heavy investments after 24 feb 2022 and prototypes shown. Even Patria 6x6s and Piranha 8x8 and 6x6 are being acquired or considered (EW) now. Unit price past 10 mil.
Why don't we ever see European road moves like Strykers do?

>>64416108
You can lose one set of tracks on each side before you become completely immobilized. A regular tracked unit can afford to lose 0; track comes off and it's immobilized.
It's also somewhat easier to replace a shorter track length, compared to a longer one.

>>64416910
Wouldnt losing a rear track on the left and a front track on the right result in your vehicle spinning in circles.

>>64416897
I assume the Boxer is more expensive than the Patria 6x6. Using the Patria 6x6 where you don't need the Boxer's armor seems reasonable.

>>64416915
You have differential braking, plus the now-trackless roadwheels still help keep a straight line. Your only issues are extremely low speed (so as not to break the remaining tracks), and very harsh ride.

>>64414519
Donnie better be prepared to pay the Euros if he wants them to care about his spat with Chayna.

>>64416225
Tell me you've been asleep for the last 3 1/2 years without telling me.

>>64415937
>In short, Europeans are all talk
Sure, little false-flagging vatnigger. Keep telling that to yourself.

>which just means they have more unemployed hours and refuse to work more hours, either due to low demand or low supply
Yet somehow they are frequently more productive per worker despite these lower hours. Curious, it's almost like sweatshot work is actually very INefficient when it comes to productivity per worker

>If Europeans won't lift a finger to stop Russians
Is that why they're carrying the effort against Russia in Ukraine despite Donnies' sabotage efforts?

>muh Great Replacement
Oh, so you're one of those schizo retards..

>>64417073
>Is that why they're carrying the effort against Russia in Ukraine despite Donnies' sabotage efforts?
Isn’t Zelenski always begging the US for arms tho since they’re better eg Patriot, Tomahawk etc? Also denying the demographic change is just retarded when street videos from pre 2015 and now exist. Even the German president or whatever did a remark regarding this.

>>64416897
The other anon has it absolutely right, its the cost
Originally the plans were to replace all the Fuchs apcs with Boxers but that wasn't feasible, as was losing the amphibious capability on that scale
Had this been the modernization concept from the start you'd be looking at Boxers and some form of Fuchs 2/3, but since plans were different originally there wasn't much effort to modernize/develop new Fuchs versions so the Patria was picked as the most cost effective proven solution

>>64417073
>false-flagging vatnigger
Idiot.
>Yet somehow they are frequently more productive per worker despite these lower hours
Except they're not really. The US has a higher GDP per capita than nearly all European countries.
>Is that why they're carrying the effort against Russia in Ukraine despite Donnies' sabotage efforts?
If the Europeans were as wealthy and well-armed as all that, they could easily supply three times the current aid to Ukraine without all this endless moaning about American intransigence. The fact is they cannot go it alone, that is why they make such a big fuss over the lukewarm US support.
>Oh, so you're one of those schizo retards
How else to explain the massive migrant invasion?
And should I construe from your reaction that you're one of these African boat future astronaut rapists?

Idiot.

>>64416108
a tracked vehicle has more difficulty turning the vehicle the longer the tracks are and also increases the chances of throwing a track.
hence there's a limit to how long a tracked vehicle can be, unlike a wheeled vehicle.
but having 4 sets of tracks instead of 2 allows for easier turning and decreased thrown track risk and thus you can create and even longer tracked vehicle.

and of course redundancy in case one set of tracks gets destroyed/thrown.

>>64417924
That’s why apple, a company from the US and its major customer base in the west is more successful and worth more than any mic in a non western country. If they wanted to they could procure enough weapons to invade an Ukraine much better than the Koreans Samsung, probably on par with North Korea in a land war and furthermore the crux of apple’s success is their incessant necessity in company aim to innovate and provide the best experience to their loyal customers which makes everyone richer, including western mic is something I would like to stress. An aspect of success that has come to light the last couple decades that you simply don’t have because you don’t like apples because you’re a banana person. But again if it wasn’t for apple we wouldn’t have left the garden of eden and proved ourselves by landing the moon 2000 years later (not that those astronauts could see the stars up there because their glass equipment lacked diffraction gradients, but that just meant they had balls of apple steel (organic alloy or aka sentient metal), caution don’t look that up)

>>64417113
For the time being US has the largest MIC on Earth with field-tested weaponry, hence why he periodically has to endure visiting the old boomer at WH and growing on patience, now, about the demographic changes, this is just secularism doing a dirty once again, it has happened multiple times through human history, rich idiots who got everything easy on life thinking they can uplift trash people or buy subhuman hordes like the russians, the solution always come with the problem as once boomers finally succumb to entropy you can get young people who didn't have the advantage of a walled community making some long awaited purges.
Now, next year Rheinmetall is activating some new factories and EU is producing more and more systems, Ukraine itself has achieved a native MIC in ther form of things like Flamingos, yes, Tomahawks are better, but you don't have to sweet-talk Drumpfy into selling them to you while he still hasn't figured out woke boomer and xer Norwegians will NEVER give him the Nobel prize.
So the time, monke needs to convince Trump to pressure ukrainians (and euros) to give away Dombas in order to save face to his own people, he needs to capitalize on Trump euphoria at achieving a cease-fire at Gaza before the war there inevitable resumes. His window of opportunity has been closing and it's obvious he only has until early 2026 to get all of this done.
So his plan, he will keep these "peace talks" going ensuring US doesn't buff in any way AFU which would be catastrophic for RuAF stretched logistics, he needs to get those 200,000 or so mobiks for a final push across Dombas, throwing in thousands of drones, any armored batallion, aircraft and artillery he has left to spare. He will also increase the number of sabotages across EU in order to scare them into keeping euros from giving away more "ready to deliver "systems to Ukraine.
Will it work?
I think not.
I would like someone to tell me why not, I put all the hints there.