Thread 23546885

>warcrimes? it was just a mistake bro now let him be a supporting character with no repercussions
the amazing complex morality of gundam seed

>>23547462
Should've killed him off and had his hot mom get a revenge arc as a pilot

Once again people just don't get the point, or would rather take the dark route for the sake of edge. Because Kira let him off he was later in the position to take out two of the Druggies and save Cagalli and Dearka and take out two of their enemies. Where as if Kira killed him when he was clearly not a threat to him at that point, then Kira maybe feels mildly better for a little bit and then his sister and another friend die later on just causing more death. It's not like Yzak laughed it off, when he found out what he did he was horrified and offered to be executed for it. It's like asking why Kira and Cagalli didn't have Shinn executed post Destiny for all the Orb people he killed.

>>23547554
>It's like asking why Kira and Cagalli didn't have Shinn executed post Destiny for all the Orb people he killed.
They should've desu.

>>23547554
Still makes me kek that Yzak in his little babby Duel soloed 2 of the 3 guys that the Big 2 spent 20 fucking episodes fighting and doing nothing against
Not even Jesus can outdo the trademark Gundam end-of-series purge where the jobbiest jobbers can wrack up kills

>>23547554
>It's not like Yzak laughed it off, when he found out what he did he was horrified and offered to be executed for it.
this is like one scene in one episode of Destiny not even in SEED itself and is forgotten right after
its not about yzak acting like it doesnt matter or kira not killing him its about the series itself framing this war crime like a trivial detail of the past once it has exhausted its use for the immediate melodrama. its about the way the show frames and neglects the importance of the event sending the impression that the anime makes light of war crimes and only used it for shock and drama value without seriously examining its implications and how it affects the morality of the characters and how they should cope with that

>>23547462
Yzak had no way of knowing it was filled with civilians. It had departed from an EA military vessel and had no markings or anything that would've identified it as a non-combatant. There's a whole series of protocols about dealing with this:
>shooting at an APC? Okay.
>shooting an an APC clearly marked with a red cross? Not okay.
Therefore, it was a legitimate target and not a war crime.

>>23547554
>when he found out what he did he was horrified and offered to be executed for it
No, he was put on trial for his actions and demoted, just as Dearka was for defection. He never "offered himself".

>It's like asking why Kira and Cagalli didn't have Shinn executed post Destiny for all the Orb people he killed.
Again, military targets, not targeting of the civilian population. It's like asking why militaries bother having POWs, instead of just executing them for killing people of their side.

>>23547963
I forget, did they specifically say in the dialogue if the shuttle was broadcasting a neutral\civilian IFF signal?

Well it all goes out the window anyway since as soon as combat starts, everyone starts turning on ECM, N-jammers are fucking up signals, and IIRC atmospheric entry blackout would have also prevented any kind of broadcast

>>23548063
>I forget, did they specifically say in the dialogue if the shuttle was broadcasting a neutral\civilian IFF signal?
No, they do not. The Menelaos just drops the shuttle as soon as things start to become hairy. Nothing about it broadcasting itself as civilian.

>Well it all goes out the window anyway since as soon as combat starts, everyone starts turning on ECM, N-jammers are fucking up signals, and IIRC atmospheric entry blackout would have also prevented any kind of broadcast
That's why you paint your damn units to tell friend from foe. As the old adage goes, "friendly fire, isn't. If your CO can see you, so can the enemy".

>>23546885 (OP)
>>I mean it was in the heat of the moment. The shuttle was at fault

>>23547916
>this is like one scene in one episode of Destiny not even in SEED itself and is forgotten right after
WAS it in destiny, I thought it was only in supplementary side materials and not in any of the shows

Forget the warcrimes, the biggest issue is how awkward it actually plays out for the sake of drama it is. Yzak waits until after the shuttle has moved from his line of fire at the Strike just to specifically go out of way to shoot the it even though he now has his clear shot at the Strike. If he didn't give a shit about shooting the damn thing taking the shot in the first place would make more sense, even from the perspective of him not thinking clearly because of his revenge hissyfits.

>>23547963
>Yzak had no way of knowing it was filled with civilians
It was unarmed civilian transport shuttle. You don't shoot at the them. The same way you don't shoot at escape pods or life rafts.

>>23549961
>The same way you don't shoot at escape pods or life rafts.
Fastest way to increase your kill count thoughbeit

>>23549961
>It was unarmed civilian transport shuttle.
I would absolutely shoot a civilian transport shuttle that might be transporting high-ranking officers or an undercover infiltration forces.

>The same way you don't shoot at escape pods or life rafts
You don't shoot those only because it encourages the enemy to give up, prisoners can be interrogated and exchanged (accessorily it make your side feel noble and generous). Or if you are low on ammo.

Seed is cheap copypasta to milk the gundam franchise so you can only blame yourself for caring

>>23547462
Fukuda is a terrible writer but he knows how to get an audience and keep it. Yzak was part of a genetically altered ikemen faction so of course fangirls are going to let him murder whatever as long as he stays ikemen. The whole coordinator/natural shit is basically eugenics for fujos. ZAFT is packed with genetically superior ikemen boys, this is why fujos will always make any seed product a success no matter the quality.

>>23551331
>I would absolutely shoot a civilian transport shuttle that might be transporting high-ranking officers
Then you would be commiting a war crime (because it IS war crime). And you lose the entire argument defending Yzak.

>>23549572
It was acknowledged in one scene of Destiny but its only vaguely alluded to as a "crime" Yzak committed because the writers dont want to remind the audience too hard by fully saying that he is responsible for shooting down an unarmed civilian shuttle killing a bunch of innocents and children. Its a blink it and youll miss it moment. The supplementary material might elaborate on it some more, i dont care for that though since its irrelevant to the point anyway.

>>23551598
A civilian vehicle used for military transport is a valid target, so are fleeing enemies.
If you want warcrime you can look into using civilian as shield or decoy, pretending it's not your fault to have accepted them in your warship and brought them to a battlefield.

I don't even care about the Yzak case, it was my first post and it's just SEED, there's no consistency in it beside copying other gundam series.
We sure didn't give a shit about kids on the White base, or Amuro killing zeeks after pretending to be an injured civilian (he was already killing zeek without being officially a soldier).
The whole scene was just cheap drama to make ZAFT look so evil!
https://youtu.be/viAKGwew87k?t=1207

>>23552639
You'd think it they wanted people to forget they'd have just given it the ol' Nicol treatment in the demaster. Have some piece of Haliburton's exploding ship take it out instead

>>23552978
>A civilian vehicle used for military transport is a valid target, so are fleeing enemies.
We all know you're blood thristy, but you are wrong. You don't shoot life rafts or escape pods. It violates the "out of combat" doctrine of the Geneva Convention. It's considered a war crime.

>>23552639
>its only vaguely alluded to as a "crime" Yzak committed because the writers dont want to remind the audience too hard by fully saying that he is responsible for shooting down an unarmed civilian shuttle killing a bunch of innocents and children.

They straight up show him flashing back to shooting the shuttle.

>>23553463
This was the same episode where Rau had his ship blow up some crippled ships that were trying to retreat, while stating that enemies that escape alive will only return with new weapons to shoot you with so it's better to let no one leave alive. They were already embracing all kinds of war crimes at that point. The Geneva Convention probably no longer even existed in CE.

>>23553463
>Article 42
>Once they landed in territory controlled by an adverse party,
>Airborne troops, whether in distress or not, are not given the protection afforded by this Article and, therefore, may be attacked during their descent.
It's a military service shuttle, right out of a military warship, it can carry bombs, troops, spies or supply for the war and they clearly intend to escape.
We both know you wouldn't mind the MC doing the same, you'd just shift your narrative.

>>23553655
>We both know you wouldn't mind the MC doing the same
Not everyone's as much of an asshole.

>>23553655
>We both know you wouldn't mind the MC doing the same


You have to be 18 or older to use 4chan.

>>23553645
They dont have the guts to make Yzak or anyone else actually say out loud what he did, which is the important part of making the characters confront that reality.

>>23553654
Youre not making a great argumenting defending Yzaks moral character when youre putting him on the same level as Rau.

>>23553655
>pic
Those are actual soldiers, not civilian women and children. This scene is also supposed to show the moral decay of Amuros character, he is is losing his compassion as he becomes used to war which has a proper thematic payoff when he reunites with his mother, unlike in SEED where Yzaks actions arent mentioned by the characters again until they are hand waved in one scene of the sequel series.

>>23552978
>it's just SEED, there's no consistency in it beside copying other gundam series.
>Amuro killing zeeks after pretending to be an injured civilian
Aside from the fact that Amuro is shooting at soldiers and not kids Yzaks case completely fails to copy 0079 because Yzak is functionally absolved of his crimes later while said scene in 0079 marks a permanent shift in Amuros character and how the series frames him morally. The fact that you cant see how different these two examples are shows how shallow your understanding of them is.

>>23553655
The databooks say the shuttle is specifically used during evacuations of ships, and is specifically called an "evacuation shuttle". It's unarmed and has no defense.

So nope. You are wrong. Yzak did a war crime.

>>23553655
>>23552978
If this is your argument, then Rau was correct for shooting the lifeboats of the Dominion and killing Fllay. After all, they were still military personnel like you said! Can't risk them getting away. And Rau was a Zaft officer. He was doing his duty to cleanse Natural filth.

>>23553879
NTA but
>proper thematic payoff when he reunites with his mother
>Shooting at the space nazis who outnumber him 3 to 1 and were five seconds short of killing/reporting him is the payoff to Amuro's "moral decay"
Kamaria, I know that's you.

The only way Yzak could have been redeemed is if he suffered the same loss he inflicted on others. Like if Yzak's mom was killed by Requiem or something like that.

Then Yzak would realize what Kira felt when that little girl Elle was killed by him.

>>23547462
When has Gundam in general been particularly morally complex?
>>23554284
Do we know if there were any original plans to kill Yzak? It felt like they were planning for that to happen.

>>23554291
I don't know about Yzak but I think there were definite plans to kill off Dearka in the final Strike vs Aegis conflict until Bandai requested they side switch him to try to help Buster sales. Given that was the point where the plot swaps from Zaft being the main badguys to EA being the main badguys and Athrun's team getting dissolved, I expect Mu was just gonna kill him rather than capture him. I don't know if that effected plans with Yzak or not, although given he mostly is "redeemed" thanks to Dearka and the ending was originally supposed to be much more of a bloodbath with even Kira and the AA crew dying, Yzak probably wasn't gonna make it either

>>23554252
Amuros actions are justified but the scene is supposed to show that Amuro has become a person that no longer hesitates killing people and thats what I mean by "decay" because its a tragic thing to happen to him.
>Kamaria, I know that's you.
Who is that?

>>23554291
im not saying every other gundam is crime and punishment im asking seed to do the bare fucking minimum here and treating warcrimes like something that maybe you shouldnt just be pardoned for with no repercussions

>>23554291
>Do we know if there were any original plans to kill Yzak? It felt like they were planning for that to happen.
Not sure. I recall them having different plans for Dearka. But then Buster Gundam wasn't selling much gunpla, and so they decided to put Dearka on Team Lacus and hint at a relationship with Millaria. Which is kinda weird since she tried to kill him.

>>23554670
He's literally shaking after shooting them.
>>23554687
It typically does though.

>>23549961
>The same way you don't shoot at escape pods or life rafts.
Literally you should. Fuck the enemy.

>>23553655
>We both know you wouldn't mind the MC doing the same
...uh, no that would actually be extremely concerning and off-putting. Like even Mika fans would think that's too edgy.

>>23554849
He shot at them without hesitating anyway, and the shaking was more fear than some kind of regret. Its completely different from earlier in series where he had to psyche himself up the first time he started aiming at a person in a normal suit.
>It typically does though.
SEED forgets to do that when it gets in the way of Yzak being a support character, so suddenly it treats his warcrime as a minor accident because it would be troublesome for the writers if the characters had problems with working alongside a war criminal. Bloody Valentine and the other incidents are treated as youd expect because its the comical bad guys doing it, but if supporting character Yzak (good guy) does it the writers suddenly start pushing that into the background.

>>23553879
>the moral decay of Amuros character
Way to call all soldiers sociopath, and then we wonder why this generation would be incapable of defending their countries or fighting for ideals.
What's next?
>No if you kill to defend yourself from space nazi you'll become a space nazi!
The entire point of MSG was to take a realistic approach and show the absurdities of war.

>>23553901
>said scene in 0079 marks a permanent shift in Amuros character and how the series frames him morally.
He killed an enemy out to kill him. THIS. IS. WAR. Amuro is a realistic character, as far as you can go before turning psychic, he doesn't get a succession of easy choices where the worse he does is a light gray.
You can stop posturing, pretending Seed has any depth voids your arguments.

>>23554016
Killing retreating enemies and not trusting what they say is what all smart armies do.
It doesn't matter what you call your military utility vehicles, plus that's as retarded as a frigate storing a helicopter only as a life-boat.

>>23554159
>If this is your argument, then Rau was correct for shooting the lifeboats of the Dominion and killing Fllay
It was wrong because there were much more important targets around to focus on and prisoners can be exchanged, beside him being on the wrong side of history.
Common sense is to not let enemies escape so they can try to kill you again later.
That's why the Geneva convention only apply to surrendering enemies not attempting to flee, and can barely cope with new technologies.

>>23554879
Only if you are talking of Mika Jesus Yamato which is a silly unrealistic character handed everything to him, including miracle survival.
His enemies sure should have made sure he was dead.

>>23555180
>Way to call all soldiers sociopath
Thats what it takes to be a soldier to some degree, and thats why its tragic for Amuro and the White Base Crew to have become soldiers against their will.
>then we wonder why this generation would be incapable of defending their countries or fighting for ideals.
Commendable patriotism from you; I too aspire to defend the geopolitical interests of my national oligarchy with great zeal and fervor, but this is getting completely off topic.
>He killed an enemy out to kill him. THIS. IS. WAR. Amuro is a realistic character, as far as you can go before turning psychic, he doesn't get a succession of easy choices where the worse he does is a light gray.
Maybe youre completely confused about the point I was making? Im saying that Amuro is justified but the scene is tragic for him because it shows that he has developed a readiness to kill which is a bad thing for anyone to develop.
>You can stop posturing, pretending Seed has any depth voids your arguments.
Where did you get this idea? I was talking about how great Amuro's arc was when the SEED apologist brought it up ( >>23553655 >>23552978 ) because comparing it to Yzak shows how shallow SEEDs writing is. Where did you get the idea I liked SEED and was criticizing 0079 when I was making the point that 0079 portrays a grounded tragedy while SEED makes light of war in comparison?

Killing Sutherland+druggies>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>unwittingly taking out one civvie shuttle.

>>23554958
>>23554958
>Its completely different from earlier in series where he had to psyche himself up the first time he started aiming at a person in a normal suit.
He absolutely did have to psyche himself up to shoot them. He didn't have to wait until the literal last second to act otherwise (especially when that meant potentially getting his mom caugt in the crossfire) and his reaction gives away that the matter wasn't premeditated.
Also
>It typically does though
>But Yzak-
>TYPICALLY
>Y-Yzak
>typ·i·cal·ly
>/ˈtipək(ə)lē/
>adverb
>in most cases; usually.

>>23555240
>Killing retreating enemies and not trusting what they say is what all smart armies do.
The reason you don't shoot retreating enemies is because if your soldiers to be shot when they retreat or surrender. It's a pragmatic approach.


>It doesn't matter what you call your military utility vehicles, plus that's as retarded as a frigate storing a helicopter only as a life-boat.
Frigates have emergency life boats. Same idea here.

>>23555986
No he hid himself until the last moment because he didnt want to be discovered and make the Zeeks think the people his mother was with were cooperating with the federation. Pay attention to the plot.
>typically
So you concede that unlike any other competently written show SEED suddenly has a huge lapse in writing quality in relation to Yzak it doesnt show in other places? That sounds like a badly written one to me, the show being less shit most of the time is a weak defense to put up.

>>23554291
>Do we know if there were any original plans to kill Yzak? It felt like they were planning for that to happen.
Yes. Director Fukuda confirmed that Yzak was originally meant to die in the first half of Seed. Iirc shortly after the Archangel lands on Earth. His death would have further motivated Dearka, Athrun, and Nicole to hunt down the Archangel.

However Yzak was surprisingly popular among the audience. Women especially loved Yzak's hot temper and rivalry with Kira. Also women loved the voice actor (Tomokazu Seki) performance with Yzak. So a decision was made to keep Yzak alive.

>>23556512
>No he hid himself until the last moment because he didnt want to be discovered and make the Zeeks think the people his mother was with were cooperating with the federation.
Except that clearly wasn't going to work after he got paged. The gig was up, the Zeeks were in full suspicion mode and they were already starting to make a commotion even before his mom was literally putting herself over him in a final bid to keep him undiscovered. And again, Amuro's reaction gives away that the matter was still a shock to the system that he had to get over.
>But Yzak!
What would I even be conceding? Once again, you try to dance around a very simple point I made because you apparently have only have one thing you can lean on. Hyperfixating on Yzak isn't going to serve you any "gotchas," when I haven't even made the point to defend him, you pretentious clown.

>>23555289
Nope, I'm not pretending to have any notable patriotic fervor, you are just painting a really wrong idea of the reasons you become soldier.
Majority don't become soldiers because they want to kill/be canon fodder, but someone has to do it or eventually no one will care about what you want.
>I too aspire to defend the geopolitical interests of my national oligarchy
>but this is getting completely off topic.
We couldn't be more on topic. You are not following a recipe where killing people is optional, if you slack you or other die and the attacker will not care for your nihilism about the democratic hands that fed you.
>Maybe youre completely confused about the point I was making? Im saying that Amuro is justified but the scene is tragic for him because it shows that he has developed a readiness to kill which is a bad thing for anyone to develop.
Or maybe Mr."soldier are psychopath" is the one confused about what the scene is conveying. The only tragedy is that his mother had to witness this, there was no "readiness to kill" he was trembling, more a fear-driven necessity to avoid being killed (or imprisoned so you can only watch as they destroy everything you'd defend). Amuro already killed people before, but never while seeing their face.
>Where did you get this idea?
Because you were posturing and what you called shallow was not Seed's writing. Even if it doesn't require any depth to understand the concept of "fog of war" and "target of opportunity".
As good as 0079 is, some people readily hallucinate grander/different meaning in an action than there was. The point of that 0079 episode was to remind the spectator that amuro is killing real people and not everyone will agree with your actions.

I've heard someone talk about extra material where Amuro's mother is interviewed, recognizing she was wrong and said horrible things to Amuro.

>>23556188
Retreating is a military action, the pragmatic approach is to kill soldiers who didn't surrender so the rest learn they should surrender or consider fighting whoever forced them to face you.
Accepting a surrender is a luxury you only afford as part of propaganda efforts if you are able to, letting enemies flee is only a matter of whether it is practical or cost-efficient to pursue.

>Same idea here.
One is a fully functional military transport vehicle with a misleading name.
The other is an escape method so desperate the occupants are likely to be forced to surrender if you save them last.

Plus, frigates have multi-usage dinghy they'll use for combat or evacuation alike.

>>23552978
>A civilian vehicle used for military transport is a valid target,
Too many monsters hide amongst us.
Thank god for the Geneva Convention, and sane people leading the world's superpowers.

>>23557170
>civilian
>dedicated warship shuttle
It takes little effort to debunk your argument

>>23557170
>"Nobody should shoot at technicals, because a Toyota pickup is not a military target"

>>23549569
suletta did it better

>>23559736
Technicals are also clearly modified from stock and can be immediately recognized at a glance as being combat-oriented.

Fuck the geneva convention and fuck morality.
Kill them all let god sort it out.

>>23547554
>Once again people just don't get the point, or would rather take the dark route for the sake of edge
/thread.

why are seed apologists always like this

>retarded non-sequitor
3/10

>>23551467
The zoomi Gen Alpha's are struggling through this with one of thier fandoms right now and I'm just sitting in my rocking chair with my cane smiling smugly.

>>23549961
>The same way you don't shoot at escape pods or life rafts.
>He didn't play TIE Fighter

>>23567670
>Kill them all let god sort it out.
okay you first